Battlestar Galactica: Razor | Obey The Command
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- Опубліковано 14 вер 2018
- Cain and Shaw find out Number Six’s secrete.
From Battlestar Galactica: Razor (2007), Lee Adama embarks on his first mission as commander of the Battlestar Pegasus.
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"That woman shot an officer right in front of the crew." - Colonel Saul Tigh
Well that was true.
Very DV of her.
**nervous crackling*
My response 2:15
teeth out fangs out.
That sinking moment when Gina must have been like "why in the actual fuck would they send a Six with the assault team ... "
"Overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer."
shitty writing@@SomeoneElseInTheComments
I love how the cylons are dumb enough to send a 6 even though is already another 6 on the ship.
Admiral Cain manages to be chillingly bat shit yet still oddly compelling as a character. She is blinded by rage yet seems to do so with an apparent composure that makes it feel planned. She presents the illusion of control, all the while having none.
many like her in "leadership"
The compelling thing about her is not that she is crazy or a bad leader. But that she may be right, and her brand of ruthless pragmatism may be the best chance of survival for the human race. Adama is constantly struggling to balance the ideals of liberal democracy with his military obligations. Cain is totally unencumbered by this. She wants to fight, and she clearly is good at it. Galactica has spent five months running from the Resurrection fleet. Pegasus spent that same time fighting a successful guerrilla war, and they only linked up with Galactica because they were about to single-handedly ambush that Resurrection fleet. Think about that. She was going for even bigger targets after this comm-relay battle.
@@michaellee3123 She was punching above her weight against a vastly superior force with a Battlestar which had limited resources and personnel. Pegasus may have the facilities to make bullets and vipers, but it lacks what it needs to sustain a long term solo operation. Apart from limited ammunition and fuel reserves, every battle the ship is taken into will incur more personnel killed in action and cumulative damage that can only be fixed in dry dock, which is not an option for obvious reasons. Cain's was a suicide mission and all it would achieve is giving the Cylons a bloody nose until Pegasus' luck finally ran out.
You could argue her type of command would be the game changing breach of ethics needed to win, were the second cylon war a fair fight. Her guerrilla war was ostensibly successful in the short term, but her insistence to fight to last man would inevitably doom the human race instead of save what was left of it.
Obviously she had no control to kill one of her own officers in front of everyone that would inspire loyalty for me by any means
@@SpaceMonke99 Don't forget crew and pilots plus almost no personal to replace them.
The whole Pegasus and Cain saga was a nice counter to what happened with Galactica, they did all the opposite things, they stood and fought, they did not protect civilians but used them and killed and stranded the rest. Cain was broken after realising she had been tricked by a cylon lover and it was personal from that point on, in contrast to this Adama saw sense when faced with the decision to fight or run when Roslin pointed out to him that the only sane option was to run and start having babies!
"the only sane option was to run and start having babies!"
Even that sounds mildly insane.
Cain had no one like Roslin questioning her, being a voice of reason. She had no idea that there were 45000 plus civilians still alive. In her mind, what was on her ship, was it, discounting the relative few civilian ships they'd come across.
She knew of nowhere to run, being military, fighting was her only recourse, and given the circumstances, I see no flaw in her reasoning. Given the data that she had, many could reasonably draw similar conclusions.
@@arndnaj "She knew of nowhere to run,"
Space is large. Jump a few times on maximum range into one direction and good look cylons finding them in the vast vacuum of space.
@@danielk5780 not to mention Pegasus is a lot more self sustainable than Galactica and more advanced
@@arndnaj Fortune favors the bold!!
Michelle Forbes was brilliant as Cain. She was utterly believable and tough as nails.
She played a mean, hard character in Deep Space 9 too.
She definitely played the part masterfully. It was actually probably really fun for her to play most actors say to be the villain is a lot of fun
@WhyAmIWearing ARedShirt Sorry. I meant to say TNG. DS9 is my favorite and it sticks in my brain. (And they wanted her for DS9 as Siskos first officer, but she declined so they created the Major Kira character.)
@@davemiller6055 kira was boring. It should have been Ro
She played Ro on Star Trek next generation. Agree Kira on DS9 was a total bore, still can't figure out what was the motivation for Kira's character and/or actor
After she killed her right hand the entire bridge personal should have relieved her of duty for the rest of the war. That woman was insane.
On a real worship will that even be possible anybody have the balls turn on somebody like that with a family Legacy like that in a heartbeat? Or would seated in silence
The chain of command (as far as I've seen) is pretty sacred in the military. She was an Admiral. If you have the balls to try and relieve an Admiral of duty, you better be sure the rest of the crew will support you.
but it was in the script
@@MikMoen Sure, but there are still orders and decisions that are not legitimate, if not completely illegal.
@@TehAntares it was NOT illegal...believe it or not a senior officer CAN shoot a subordinate for desertion or cowardice DURING a time of war....usually it does not come to that but it is legal....
People used to be made of sterner stuff and took loyalty to your fellow soldier as a blood oath.
What she did was show the rest of the officers she would NOT accept cowardice under her command, remember he was her friend....
Lastly, she HAD to launch everything and hit the cylons with her ship full arsenal if they had any chance to live....a trap means that the enemy expects you to do everything you can to run and get away..NOT charge in head first and put it all in,do or die.....she's an Admiral, you have to basically have a PHD in enemy thinking and tactics
"What do you think I did? I ordered the frackin attack."
I love how Gina struggled to shoot Cain. You could see she loved her. The whole situation was intense.
It also does explain why it was so easy for her to order Thorne to do what he did.
Strictly speaking Gina Raped Cain by sleeping with her under false pretenses.
If Adama had a ship like Pegasus from the get-go, everything would have been too easy. Cain didn't manage her ship well at all, to put it very kindly. Adama did more than her with far less.
To be hones, does it matter? It is all a game planned out by the final bad guy. Are you sure without those critical plot characters all inserted in Galacitca, the ship wouldn't just end up being Pegasus?
See, that's my problem with modern storytelling. Ideas like that are too conservative. If every single event played out the exact same way, yes, it would have been easier - BUT, had Galactica been better than she was (newer, etc), then much more conflict could have happened because the ship could have taken and given even more punishment.
It's simple math. The smaller the numbers get (power levels of the two factions), the higher the percentages get. Meaning: Power reductions/increases mean more at lower levels therefore making it hard for Galactica to make a believable "come from behind victory" or something similar. But with higher power ships and more of them, the percentages are lower, therefore increasing the storytelling ability of what CAN happen, because there's more power and more players in the equation to begin with.
If Adama had Pegasus, they would have gotten more planes but the ship’s lack of ventral and dorsal batteries would made the ship poorly suited for the convoy duty Galactica had.
Just because you have a strong personality doesn't mean you're a good leader or tactician. I've encountered many of these types in the Army.
Except she was. That's the thing about Cain that makes her a compelling character. The strong possibility that she could be right and that her ruthless pragmatism was actually the best chance of survival that humanity had.
Despite being massively outgunned and outnumbered, she waged a successful guerilla war against the Cylons, hounding the very fleet that was pursuing Galactica. She inspired fierce loyalty among her soldiers, including Starbuck.
After they blew up the Resurrection Ship, Cain had indeed "won" the debate. She chose not to kill Adama because he had fallen in line. Not that he would have succeeded in assassinating her anyway. It was heavily implied that she suspected the plot.
If you have any doubts, listen to Fisk and Starbuck's eulogies at Cain's funeral.
@@bellgrand Cain's philosophy when it comes to leadership was "do whatever I say or I'll have you killed/tortured." Just look at what happened to Gina, Belzen, and the civilian fleet they found. Was her leadership effective when it came to fulfilling her own goals? Sure. But it was also ruthless and she put no restrictions on her own authority, and her crew suffered because of it, especially psychologically. Shaw became suicidal and a drug addict while Fisk drank heavily and was prone to bursts of hysterical laughter. And a LOT of her crew took pleasure in sadistically raping her former Cylon lover. All that's on her.
In my opinion, she's a great leader in the same way Stalin was or any other dictator in history is/was. Did she keep her crew alive and make them a formidable fighting force? Absolutely, despite making at least one severe tactical mistake. But she didn't give a shit about the psychological toll she was inflicting on her crew, nor did she care about anyone who couldn't help her kill Cylons. If left to her own devices, she probably would've killed Roslin and stripped the fleet for spare parts and personnel just like she did the first fleet she found.
Ultimately, within the context of the society and military she hailed from, which presumably had a long list of rules based on a strict code of discipline and morality, no, she was not a good leader. Within the context of a dictator, yes.
@@WiiMan1133 You have some pretty glaring double standards. Cain shot Belzen for insubordination in the middle of a battle; Adama was not above summary executions himself, as you later saw with Gaeta and Zarek (who was not even in the military). Nothing presented about Cain or the Pegasus suggests a ship ruled by fear. When she died, the crew was not relieved; morale plummeted. Lee Adama had to find an XO to REVIVE Cain's legacy, and that was Shaw. This underscores that her crew were fanatically loyal to her IN SPITE of the psychological toll of war; the exact same thing can be said of the Galactica's crew to Adama, who were not exactly the poster children of mental health either. On that note, it's hilarious you bring up Fisk's drinking when his foil is Tigh, who is a walking dumpster fire of a human being whose only redeeming quality is his loyalty. Seriously, on his first day of command, he declared martial law, dissolved the government, and tried to forcibly requisition supplies, shooting civilians in the process. GEE, THAT REMINDS ME OF SOMEONE.
When Adama found out, he just shrugged, said "command sucks," and pointed out that people in command often have to do horrible things to keep their people alive. (This is my entire point about Cain's ruthless pragmatism; this quality exists in Adama as well, and you forgive it in him simply because you spent more time with him. But honestly, what if she's right? Had their situations been reversed, would they make difference decisions? Would Galactica even survive five months of guerrilla war?)
Your point on Gina Inviere rings true, but Cain definitely took the fact that she was a Cylon spy who seduced her pretty damn personally. For someone who probably finds it very difficult to connect to people, the feeling of betrayal must have been massive.
I definitely think she was more interested in hurting Inviere than extracting any useful information out of her.
@Video Blend And? Did the people there have foresight? This decision was Cain's to make and her subordinates' to follow. The fact that it was the right one does not change that fact, nor if it were the wrong one. That said, she was not just lucky here; she made the right decision every single time from this point to her death five months later. Kept her crew alive and fighting. As Adama himself said, "I never had any use for someone second-guessing my decisions. Especially if they've never held a command."
@@michaellee3123 I would note that Gaeta and Zarek were not summary executions. They were executed by a firing squad, meaning the execution process was formal and likely involved a trial (just because we don't see it on screen doesn't mean it did not occur- indeed, previous plot points related to Baltar made it fairly clear the fleet relies on legal methods of punishment and procedure)- it's not like he pulled a gun and killed them on the spot. There was zero reason she couldn't have Belzen arrested rather than shooting him, other than as a show of force to scare her crew into line... which is not something any competent military officer should ever need to do.
I think Cain was finally crushed by three things 1) She had been fraternizing with the enemy. And loved her. 2) Her cylon lover hesitated before pulling the trigger. How could her sworn enemy have feelings for her? 3) Her cylon lover was going to kill her despite the obvious love her cylon lover felt for her. Again she had badly underestimated the enemy. No place to go but hate...way past the point of no return. Letting her crew pull a never ending train on her lover...man talk about a woman scorned. Leaping lizards! Michele Forbes played Cain magnificently. Tricia ain't no slouch either.
She was already "scarred" by war experiences beforehand. To be more precise, it started when she was a child. When her sister was abducted by the Cylons. Otherwise, she would never have ordered this attack, let alone shot her subordinate.
She is insane. She killed Rhade for being intelligent. She thinks you should throw everything you have at a known trap that has superior force than you do. She's crazy. She killed him when she could have easily just relieved him of duty.
I didn`t notice before it`s an actor from Andromeda lol
@@insertanynameyouwant5311 oh my... and he is Goauld Camulus from SG-1 and also Major Coburn from the same series. There are plenty actors in different series (e.g. Michael Shanks well known Dr. Jackson form SG-1 had a role in Andromeda as well - as Gabriel, avatar of powerful commonwealth warship, what's funny is that his counterpart from Andromeda - Rommie - played by Lexa Doig - became his wife and appeared in SG-1 as well as Dr. Lam ;) Ben Browder and Claudia Black provided nice duo in Farscape but appeared together in season 9 and 10 of SG-1 (well, Claudia was in one episode much sooner). It happens. There are actors recognizable from sci fi series and appearing in more than one show. Claudia Black had a minor role in Pitch Black as well ;)
Part crazy, part survivalist. She murdered Rhade in front of everyone to send a message that disobeying her wasn't an option. I'm also guessing there was no one else who could've challenged her command.
That can happen in the military though. I would say not likely or often. However, throught historoy orders have been given for units to engage in hopeless fights as part of a greater strategy. War is anything but clean and generally amounts to choosing the least bad option that is hopefully part of a better tactic.
I like her brutal command style. Out number 4 to 1 hmm "fortune favors the bold."
Damn....the XO was right though. You have to live to fight another day when the odds are more in your favor.
its an old comment but I think cain did the right thing. The cylons placed a trap, and by launching their vipers pegasus fell for it. Retreating wouldve ment recalling their vipers, which with the disabled point-defense leaves pegasus completely defenseless while theyre getting ready to jump. That's what the cylons hoped they'd do, so they can damage or destroy pegasus without any sort of resistance. standing their ground was the right call if you think about the bigger picture.
Launching vipers in the first place is a bad idea. Just launch a couple of rounds from the main guns and smash it.
@@westrim even under manual control they could've walked their battery fire into the main target.
@@WeyounLP Reason why it wasn't a trap: The Cylon counterattack didn't use any means to quickly eliminate or at least cripple the Pegasus (like nukes). The reinforcements jumped in too soon, giving Pegasus enough time to respond. And since the blue squadron was just launched and Pegasus didn't suffer any damage, it could prepare for jump quite fast, without need to fight the whole Cylon air group (only the single vanguard squadron could get in range).
@@WeyounLP not even close to being accurate. They could have recalled the Vipers and and jumped out long before they took any damage versus taking substantial losses.
When she calls out " Colonel Fisk! " it is chilling.
Cain or Fisk?
Side note here man her second-in-command disobeyed her orders okay that's not uncommon in the military you can't disobey an order especially during the combat or on the battlefield and that's exactly what he did I'm in military law in the real world that's a f****** firing squad immediately because one thing it does it contradicts the chain of command out there in the field and it puts in confusion in the ranks and that lowers morale because the truth won't know who the f*** they posed to obey and short is called a mutiny you trying to book the chain of command. According to the UCMJ of military code of justice you can't do that that would get you in front of a firing squad or you can be relieved of command and placed under arrest by the military emps to stand trial in a military Court how do you write these f****** low the white man wrote them from European battle customs and s*** and that's the way it's been since the founding of this country you cannot f****** order from a superior officer whether he's right or wrong. You will be charged for that the military got their own courts and they told Congress a hundred years ago that will form a military but we got to have our own court system Congress agreed and gave them that Authority not the f****** president.
neely wrong. @Tom Baker ah but any order can be refused legally if the order itself is illegal say you're ordered to do something like commit a crime, immoral such as kill a bunch of innocent women and children or puts you or the unit at unnecessary or unreasonable risk there is no exception for that even in a time of war.
Lucky Wrench Imagine being in his shoes, knowing that if you disagreed with her your head would get blown off.
Loved admiral Cain. She was such a great character. Great characters add tension and adversity, which she had in spades.
I despised Cain, but damn, did the actress do an amazing job of portraying the character!
She was a joy to watch on TNG too.
I forget she's literally in *three* episodes of BSG + Razor, and she's probably the character I think about most.
@@forplaint_ru And a few appearances on Orphan Black.
This is the type of scene that is unbelievably memorable. Admiral Cain played 2 perfection. Is she nuts. Oh yes.
Cain is what Adama could have very well turned into, as he was about to set off on this path in the mini-series movie, if not for Roslin convincing him that survival was possible.
Cain had no hope for survival at first as it was just her and her people. They couldn't restart the human race with those numbers. All that was left for them was to either sit and wait for death or go out fighting.
By the time they did find others, her course was already well set. She was so blinded by revenge, especially after her own lover turned out to be a Cylon whose betrayal ended up getting her men killed, that there wasn't any room for anything else.
Adama had Roslin to calm his initial rage and balance him - and even that relationship had its rocky start - Cain pretty much shot the only person who might have been able to reason with and balance her.
You are wrong. Roslin was going mad, it was Adama keeping her at bay. And don’t forget, Adama had no second thoughts about to literally nuke his son off a planet at a brief moment.
In respect to Admiral Cain, she was the definition of an edge lord. Straight forward, unfathomable determination as to no other, and bold with no steps back, always forward. People perceive her as crazy and reckless, but she was on the final stand for humanity and not an excuse would stop her… except her girlfriend lol.
When surrendering your weapon to a superior officer you must first....Clear the weapon! Basic Training.
She chambered a bullet before she pointed it at his head.
@@michaellee3123 He forgot to take out magazine, that's part of clearing the weapon too.
I didn't see him do anything to clear it, they probably just carry sidearms in condition 3
It's weird how in a show w space robots, the most ludicrous thing was her blowing her xo's brains out and the rest of the crew not immediately relieving her of her command.
Unfortunately we have seen real examples of this happening in Ukraine and this situation playing out.
They didn't start a mutiny because from what they knew she was their only possible commander. They didn't know Adama was alive and I'm sure no one on Pegasus had any confidence in a guy like Fisk to run the show ( = to lead what's left of humanity as far as they could tell).
They had a prisoners dilemma going on and they made the wrong choice. By the time they realized there was an alternative it was too late for them.
Also, this is only the SECOND most ludicrous thing in the show, number one being the nuclear holocaust committed against an entire species, causing billions of lives to perish, reducing their population to ~ 50 thousand, effectively making that species an endangered one. I know the writers had a chip on their shoulder but making me sympathize with beings that dwarf the nazis in brutality (the human experiment scene also comes to mind from Razor) is a tall order.
Well setting aside that she's armed, what she did wasn't illegal. The XO was insubordinate. Normally that would place them under arrest and prison, but in a time of war it can mean death, but especially in the face of the enemy, a superior officer can summarily execute an insubordinate.
He objected, which is fine, and should have declared for the log his opposition to the order and if he thought it was illegal on what basis but then obey the order. You don't have to agree on it and when in combat you cannot afford to argue.
@@cpob2013 if you cannot execute an order in good conscience, that does not mean that you are automatically insubordinate, nor does it mean that your superior has the right to execute you on the spot. It will be up to a court of law to determine that outcome.
Cain’s second “Colonel Fisk!”
I love the camera work in this series. It doesn’t just show the action, it tries to make you feel like you’re standing there.
over used shakey cam...it really sucks
@@saquist It's trying to be a documentary style like there's a film crew in an actual warzone. I think it overdoes it but it's a nice stylistic beat.
Its called ENG style. Shot with handhelds, not tripod mounted. And live pans.
Admiral cain contradicts herself so much. This scene here after she said she wouldn’t do anything stupid and risk the ship and the scene when she tells Adama that she won’t interfere with galacticas crew. She’s batshit crazy!
I forgot how rough Razor was, and how gorgeous Stephanie Jacobsen is. WTF happened to her and why isn't she on more shows!
She forget the prime purpose of the military , to defend its civilians who pay for it. Yes that can involve offensive action but only for the strategic purpose of the safety of its civilians. Adama with a bit of prodding from the president remembered that and tried to defend what was left of humanity while Cain basically wanted revenge
LOL having fun deployed to Fort Couch?
@@johnroscoe2406 Screw that I pay others to get killed and kill. It's how a economy works specialisatoin
Pegasus could have been such a spectacular ship before joining the fleet had they relieved Cain of command.
Big facts
I know everyone is having a cain hate party here. But she made the right call, the reason the cylons knew they were coming was because of the 6 mole, they would have continuously ambushed her at every turn had she not won this fight here, discovering as a result the nature of that 6. This was when they were best prepared to fight their way through an ambush. So to be clear, in this instance Cain was right, her xo was wrong. copypasta
@Jane Hrahan No, just because the whole battle caused the spy to blow her cover doesn't mean that it was the best choice to push the attack. It ended working out but by pure luck (or "divine" intervention).
@@janehrahan5116 That's literally "hindsight is 20/20". Six would have been discovered the second they met up with Galactica anyway, so that's an incorrect argument that it's the "only time to have had that happen" or whatever.
Having a character say "spring the trap" and win is very unlikely, especially WITH the battle readout.
It was easily 100% the wrong call for about a million reasons - and that's the way they wanted it, to showcase who the Admiral was.
Under what justification could they peacefully relieve Cain of command?
This decision was wrong on so many levels, it's honestly astonishing that the entire CIC didn't collectively draw guns on her that same moment.
Wrong my friend she gave a lawful order and he refused in the real world that happened XO will be up against a fence post base in a military firing squad because according to the United States military code annotated order UCMJ you cannot refuse a lawful order from your commander if it's an illegal order you are to carry out that order and then report it to the chain of command it's called military customs and courtesies so if the commander says shoot that baby girl where you got to make a choice here is that a lawful order or legal order you go ahead and shoot and then you report that to the chain of command above her head
@@charlesneely Not the execution, dumbass. The decision to stay and fight the overwhelming Cylon force that was bearing down on them.
But since you brought it up: actually the execution was wrong as well. It is also illegal for officers to execute their subordinates without trial, making this a case of abuse of power, and it was also a waste of trained personnel in a situation where those are hard to come by.
If she had wanted him dead she should have stripped him of his rank and have him arrested for insubordination, put him to trial later and have a firing squad handle the execution.
The correct tactical decision would have been to demote him several ranks and put him to use elsewhere on the ship where he can't defy her anymore.
So yeah, two decisions that were wrong on several levels in one scene.
@@charlesneely " so if the commander says shoot that baby girl where you got to make a choice here is that a lawful order or legal order you go ahead and shoot and then you report that to the chain of command above her head "
Oh my goodness, no, that is so so wrong. That is not the case. If you are ordered to shot an innocent civilian (commit a crime) that is unlawful, in all militaries including the US. There are rules of war you know? And ordering a subordinate to commit a crime is illegal and can be disobeyed. THEN the chain of command investigates and decides whether or not the action was legal or not (Which in this case is not complex, being ordered to kill an innocent baby is unlawful and illegal)
" Wrong my friend she gave a lawful order and he refused in the real world that happened XO will be up against a fence post base in a military firing squad because according to the United States military code annotated order UCMJ you cannot refuse a lawful order from your commander if it's an illegal order you are to carry out that order and then report it to the chain of command "
AGAIN, this is wrong... In the united states army, this would not happen, the person disobeying the order has to go before a military tribunal or court and be sentenced, the ranking officer does NOT decide the punishment and they most certainly do not execute their soldiers for disobeying orders. I really don't think you know what you are talking about mate, and I don't mean that to sound rude, If the order is illegal or unlawful, you do NOT carry it out then report it, because you are responsible then for committing the crime even if you were ordered to do it. You disobey an unlawful order and let the court decide if it was illegal, and if it was the commanding officer is charged and you are let go. Simple as that. That is the case for almost all developed nations armed forces, including the US.
@@ryang58 any order in which a superior officer gives you is not to be refused on the battlefield that fucking baby girl coming hold of damn hand grenade under her diapers Bullet to the Wikileaks collateral murder video those helicopter Pilots with given a direct order from Central Command or their officer in charge of them to like that fucking bed up like a Christmas tree at first they had to wait for the order to do it in one of the pilot is about to piss on himself if he can't find off his big guns? Go see the video come on let me shoot! When he got clear knowledge there were kids in that van those optic sensors on those helicopter gunship are the most advanced in the world and they can see through smoke Haze fog drizzle you name it they expensive as hell but I'll Texas pay for those heads up display and those Optics on those aircrafts when he finally got the order to shoot they lived at Bay like a Christmas tree the pilot busted a nut and smoked a cigarette and said quote that's what you get for bringing kids to a gunfight, that is premeditated murder is a war crime who knows parents will never know but I'm pretty sure they're so we're back in United State now wait a cop's uniform beating the crap out of a black man of shooting a black man Anonymous need to identify that mother fucker so we can do like they did in the Bible so that we might know him window gay people came to lot's house in Sodom and Gomorrah so now, anonymous if you're listening do your duty are monitoring all forms of communication including this one. Identify that pilot so that we might know him?
charles neely reply makes no sense????? What drug are u on?
I’m satisfied she had a very awful death. A true example of ‘live by the sword, die by the sword.’
Her death was pretty quick and painless, so not bad TBH. Enviable, even. I'd prefer it over suffocation by coronavirus.
@@chaztikov Yes, she clearly suffered less than her cylon ex girlfriend...
@@fabmax41 That was one serious domestic case.
No difference between humans and Cylons , both are monsters !
This is such amazing television. Great writing. Great acting. Great directing. Great everything.
I know it was mentioned before, but Michelle Forbes (and the writers) did an excellent job with the role. A character you loved to hate, and would eventually get her comeuppance.
Nods to Tricia Helfer and Stephanie Jacobsen as well.
To me, Pegasus and Cain always felt like a bit of a missed opportunity. It might have been more compelling to see Adama clash with someone with a different perspective or leadership style, but whose point of view you could still understand. Instead she was sort of just cartoonishly crazy and evil. It was still good, but it could've been great.
Man, I fucking love Michelle Forbes. Such a badass in every role.
Admiral Cain was *straight-Colonel Kurtz-Apocolypse Now* level crazy...
the second in command of the ship, vital for operations and crew morale, disobeying a single order - on the spot execution
being an undercover cylon agent - taken to the brig
what
XO: "This battle is lost! We must disengage!"
Admiral: "Coward! Commisar, do your duty!"
Commisar: "As the Emperor wills!"
*A pistol is charged* // *A shot is fired* // *Sound of a corpse falling to the ground*
You see? Everything is easier and faster with a commisar on the bridge. The Imperium knows best.
As a 40k fan I appreciate this comment, but as a BSG fan, I would have shot the Admiral dead on the bridge; Cain was worthless.
@@Stargazzer811 she wasnt worthless, just a few cylons short of a toaster if you know what i mean
Ricardo Fernandez Torres this would have been a pointless Sacrifice a even the death korrps know the difference between sacrifice and pointless sacrifice she would have been shot by her own Commissar for wasting Resources on a Unwinnable battle that that would have gained them nothing even if they did win
Please, if a commisar was there he would relieve her of duty permanently.
They would? I mean, the Commissar did nothing when Catallia charge the Vengeful Spirit. The odds are even worse there than here.
When she said "NOW," hell, she said it with such authority, *I* almost handed the TV my own sidearm.
The Razor film was my absolute favourite thing to come out of BSG, its such a hard hitting morality quandry and Kendra was a great anti-hero under a dictatorial admiral. Such a refreshing difference from the main cast
Like they say in the show, pretty sure Cain had serious connections with the politicians to become a admiral with that tactical mindset lol
Diversity hire
I always got the impression that Cain was a new breed of Colonial officer recruited and promoted young to fight the next Cylon War.
I imagined her and her XO going to a Battle School like the tween and teen kids in Enders Game. Then when they got old enough they were sent to the Colonial Academy then onto War College. After all of those years of indoctrination, all she would know how to do is fight. Even when fighting made no more sense.
She was the granddaughter of one of the war heroes of the first Cylon war (Battlestar Galactica Deadlock) and is basically fast-tracked and "honored" due to her name and because she established connections. All of these are red flags to any wise military officer on her command ability. She is noted for badly losing war games against the other commanders in the fleet, so you can add wanting to prove herself in a real battle to the list of things driving her into recklessness. To her credit, she at least keeps the "image" of composure until she shoots her XO and later executes civilians. I'd like to watch a breakdown analysis of precisely what went wrong with her being in command cause she is a layered character in exactly "why" she is as bad as she is.
I love the way she says will you execute it after executing her last XO
Rock solid implication or "or will I execute you?" I do wonder how things would have changed if she'd died rather than the XO... Had to be hard since they were portrayed in a few scenes as bing friends.
Never did get Cain in the reimagined series. In the original he redeemed himself by fighting off 3 base ships and giving the fleet a window to escape. In this, (s)he was a murderer of her own people, did nothing to redeem herself, and later flashbacks of her make her out as an even MORE vile character than she originally was.....
It was actually two basestars. Flies between them at point blank launching missiles.
@@DerpyPenguin4747 But scared back Baltar's baseship. Same effect.
In the original he was also a Commander, not an Admiral.
@@kettch777 And Adama's subordinate since Adama was on the Council of Twelve
Yeah, not Cain's best moment. She let herself get carried up in the emotion and then couldn't bring herself to back down in the face of reason. At that point, she HAD to go forward, personally, or feel that she had lost control of her situation. I think Belsen was correct; recall all fighters then jump the heck out of there. It would've cost so much fewer lives and equipment to have done so.
The cylons knew there was a 6 on board. So why did they send another 6 with the raiding party? Lots of other skin jobs they could have used if they used any at all.
Or they blew up her cover so she has no choice but to obey.
Because the plot...I mean The Gods demanded so! :P
Or to sow discord and distrust amongst the crew
It wouldn't have mattered, the only thing keeping them from finding gina very rapidly was the entire lack of knowlege that skin jobs existed, once it was known she would have been discovered before her next mission due to her cylon communication device (how she set up the ambush, incidentally making cains decision to fight through it the only correct decision).
@@janehrahan5116 Grotesquely incorrect.
Still one of the greatest sci-fi series of all time!!
When I watched razor on Hulu it was put in sometime in season 2 or 3 I think. I had no idea it was made after the show aired.
A philosopher once said: "When faced with untenable alternatives, you should consider your imperative..." Look around you, our imperative is right here... in our bulkheads, in our planes, in our guns, and in ourselves...WAR is our imperative, and if victory seems like an impossibility there is something else to reach for...revenge.....payback...so we will fight....because in the end it is the only alternative our enemies have left us.... - Admiral Cain
2:08
Thanos: You should have gone for the -
Cain:
she was wrong here. This even by miltary standards are unacceptable
Wrong my friend in the United States military you have to obey an order given to you especially during combat or on the battlefield you cannot contradict those orders got the commander they gave them did so with good faith that he can protect his crew or Squad as it were any conflicting orders during combat on the battlefield is detrimental to the morale of the troops it causes confusion in the ranks how do you write the rule the United States government wrote those rules for the military one hundreds of years ago. Your service said you have to obey the chain of command in this particular case Admiral Cain was his Superior officer the good conscience s*** just doesn't work when you're given an order even if it's an illegal order you cannot commit Mutiny on the field. That's one thing about this show they did damn good research when it came to a military customs and courtesy and military combat strategies and apply them in a science fiction setting. That being said there was only one person it got shot for not following orders during World War II he was given a military firing squad a buck private if I'm not mistaken I think it was Private Eddie Sutton Martin Sheen made a movie about him back in the early 80s it Navy SEAL Guy the one that killed that so-called supposedly Terrace, well he disobeyed a direct order his Superior officer ordered him to take that prisoner back to his home instead the Navy SEAL officer did what he wanted to do inside to interrogate the man totally contradicting the orders given to him. Because he want to know what the so-called terrorist part of a group that attacked his men so f****** what? He was given a direct order by his Superior officer and he disobeyed those orders he should have gotten the f****** military death sentence for it in a court of the United States military code of justice instead the court found him acquitted of most charges that was disgusting and Donald Trump sent him a thank-you letter good job and all that b*******
@@charlesneely You know the United States is not the whole world right? But even so in the United States soldiers can indeed refuse an order if it is illegal.
" the good conscience s*** just doesn't work when you're given an order even if it's an illegal order you cannot commit Mutiny on the field."
Even in the US if you are given an order you only have to obey it if it is lawful, If it's unlawful or known to be illegal, you do not have to obey it. It is illegal to order a soldier to commit a crime. The problem with the show here is, that Admiral Cain has promoted herself to judge jury and executioner. Even in the real world if an incident like this happened, the ranking officer (in this case Cain) does not get to trail and punish the convicted. A court has to do that. (Even in war time)
" Military members disobey orders at their own risk. They also obey orders at their own risk. An order to commit a crime is unlawful. An order to perform a military duty, no matter how dangerous, is lawful as long as it doesn't involve the commission of a crime."
@@charlesneely Military personnel are held responsible for following unlawful orders, and have no duty to follow them. Whether an order was lawful or not is an issue for a military tribunal to decide. Summary execution is literally playing judge, jury, and executioner, and would be a blatantly unlawful act demonstrating that the CO was not fit for command, Admiral or otherwise. It would be a blatant war crime, even if the original order had been lawful. By any Western military standards what Cain did would result in a dishonourable dismisssal from service at best, and would stand trial for war crimes where applicable.
The entire point of this scene is to point out that Cain relies on the principle on personal power over military regulations or justice; which comes in to play throughout her time in the fleet later.
charles neely You know the reason you Americans won at ‘73 Easting is because the officer in charge didn’t follow orders, right?
@@charlesneely In the US military, you are not only encouraged, but required to disobey unlawful orders. Also, the US military is not the same as the colonial military.
I honestly can’t understand why the crew didn’t mutiny after Cain raised the civilian fleet.
razed not raised
Ask the millions of German military who went ahead with atrocities despite knowing right from wrong and were just following orders. Or in fact look at any of the major wars and you will
See people react like this .
Especially after the CI was executed., The next CO was a weak man and followed orders, that’s why she picked him. Everyone fell in line. There wasn’t much time to process What was happening as well. On another ship.
With different people perhaps more would have stood up and a firefight would have ensued, destroying everyone.
If that doesn’t persuade you, ask yourself why other strange human behaviour exists. There is the well known bystander effect, if someone is being attacked, some people ignore it. They should intervene, but human behaviour is more nuanced than that.
For me, their reaction is very believable.
The German military didn't it against fellow Germans, but, in their view, lesser people.
+makesete30 Very accurate, though I feel like mentioning that there weren't millions of German soldiers involved in the atrocities, "merely" hundreds of thousands. The bystander effect is a very real phenomenon. If you don't know about it and actively fight it, it's very likely that you succumb.
Fun fact: our military is doing their best to not anything like that happen again. The Bundeswehr's doctrine is "citizen in uniform", meaning you don't leave your moral compass and humanity at the door when you sign up for service. You are required to voice your objections and will not be punished for them.
That's yet another reason why them deciding to ditch all technology and therefore knowledge when they finally reached Earth was incredibly stupid. Fucking cycle, pah!
in contrast to Adama who inspired confidence and respect, Cain inspired fear. People would give their lives for what Adama needed because they wanted to, those under Cain would do it because they had to for fear of the repercussions.
The XO's responsibility is to challenge the Captain. So she executes him. I love how she gets killed later.
That doesn't mean he gets to disobey orders he disagrees with when overruled
@cpob2013 There's a thing called illegal orders.
Yeah he does.
Fisk gives the order to repel boarders with about as much urgency as an airline pilot running down a safety briefing.
Cain was the opposite side of the same coin as Adama. Except Adama had long enough time and perspective enough to look beyond simply military needs. She also had a certain sense of self which blinded her to anything beyond her absolutes. BTW, it would have possibly been interesting had the original XO lived.
I feel Cain could have just relieved him of duty, put him in the brig for 30 days, then let him out with several demotions where he is no longer in CIC. Though effectively murdering the civilians by stripping their ships absolutely should have had her crew relieve her of duty. Unacceptable.
DOODY
I miss this show beyond words
There is a new BSG series in the making right now.
if Riker saw this, he would start stuttering lol
In the original BSG, Commander Cain was a war hero that was inspiring as he was brilliant. He could be, and was, faced by such overwhelming odds. His XO would point out the difficulties they would face, Cain would nod and issue appropriate orders, Pegasus would charge three Cylon baystars and f*ck sh*t up.
I think Helena Cain is a more accurate portrayal of the levels of crazy you need to wage the sort of war she did. (And she was successful, I might add.)
Originally BSG humans were like Startrek humans. Reboot-like modern people
In the original series cain was a coloneal, not an admiral..that changes things...
@@bellgrand I wouldn't call her successful, given everything happened under her command was utter disaster: executing XO, ran into a trap without backing down, torturing cylon prisoner without result, leaving civilians behind instead of conscripting them into military (not just technicians, all of them given how Pegasus was short on menpower). In the end, it was Baltar who got the answer, Starbuck who did the recon mission, Adama and Cain destroyed the resurrection ship, and ironically cylon who saved the civilian fleet
@@shepherdlavellen3301 I'm saying she fought a guerilla war all alone all the time the Galactica was on the run.
This scene just blew my mind
Great scene!
I love the interplay between Ensign Roe and Rhade
You want to destroy moral....that's how to do it.
Michelle Forbes is at her best playing rebellious or badass characters.
Such a fine show, superb acting by pretty much the entire cast.... (And, there was Six...! Mmmmmm...!)
Best scene ever
Now I'm going to have to watch Razor after I'm done with BSG, lol
It's best to watch it between seasons 2 and 3.
Just put it in after season 2. When Apollo have the command but not yet gotten fat
thx for the advice but I'm just starting the final disk of season 4. I'll be looking forward to it regardless.
@@EnigmaticPenguin 30 minutes of one of the best episodes !
Razor and The Plan both undermine BSG. BSG is best in Seasons 1 and 2. By the time they made Razor and The Plan, they forgot what made BSG great in the first place.
Anyone else would have just relieved him of duty
Fantastic TV movie
Poor Steve Bacic can never survive as a XO dying at the hands of the Captain.
I always found it strange that Battlestars didn't have any kind of defensive measures for things that make it inside the flight pods, especially for an enemy that would more than likely try boarding.
Well first of all in order to land in the flight pods you have to fight your way through kilometers of Battlestar flak, triple A, point defense cannons, Viper interceptors, etc. It's nearly impossible for anything to get through that without destroying/disabling all of them first (which the cylons did by hacking). Battlestars don't have weapons systems inside their flight pods for the same reason Aircraft Carriers don't have guns pointed to at their own flight decks, why have a gun pointed at a place where only your planes will be when you can place it facing outward to ensure that no enemy craft can get close to that area? Another way to think about it is, Every gun pointed at the inside of the flight pod, for that one in a billion chance an enemy craft lands on your ship, is one less gun pointed outwards that can shoot down enemy craft and decrease the odds any can land on your ship.
@@captainconway2236 but does it cost too much to rig inside a few auto turrets that are hack proof? Like mechanical, un-hackable stuff with high rate of fire placed on a few key points with decent concealment. Get them live once in a lockdown situation so anyone who steps in range gets chopped to pieces. Could be either last resort or first response for boarding cases. Obviously it's unlikely that enemy personnel would try landing on a carrier rather than sinking it from afar and in an unlikely case of a spy infiltration this would be useless. However is it really a huge deal to setup a system like this? An aircraft carrier costs billions already, what is a few more concealed sensor activated turrets inside, firing some 7.62s or whatnot.
@@mistaowickkuh6249 hackproof doesn't exist i'm afraid. the colonials thought their entire fleet was hackproof, and look how that turned out haha ;)
@@mistaowickkuh6249 Only thing that's hackproof, is analog. Manpowered.
@@jefffaulkner2875 you can hack people too. Easiest way is a bullet to the head. I was talking about no software, dumb kill turrets there. Set the system live, they start firing as soon as they detect ANY movement. Easy motion detection doable completely analog. Anyways, it's not like I'm a weapons engineer so I don't care.
FANTASTIC CHARACTER!!! RP Admiral Cain !
Badass scene.
Next please: the scene where the Original CAG of Galactica and his squadron of Mark VII were disabled and shot down by the raiders
Imagine being a covert agent with such poor situational awareness you forget about the carbine pointed at you
She let the feelings she had for Cain get in the way of her better judgement.
She’s de facto immortal, dying doesn’t phase her.
The anti-Ro Laren
i love the little aussie =)
2:22 That woman's face sums up the shock they'd all be feeling so perfectly.
Shooting your XO when he makes a conscience decision is the stupidest thing a commanding officer can do. Arrest him, confine him to quarters, court marshal whatever, but killing a fellow officer is a sure way to invite a mutiny and at the very least reduce the effectiveness of your command team and your crew when they all see their lives mean nothing.
It's at that very moment all the bridge crew should have stood up to her and refused her orders and relieved her of command permanently. You just don't kill your own people.
This is why she was sent to Jaros II.
Savage!
WHAT A FUCKING GREAT SERIES!!!!
Battlestar Galactica: The show that used FN 57's and Hi-Point Rifles as standard service issue weapons
Admiral Cain wasn't fit to be Admiral her command was sloppy. No wonder Pegasus was doomed at the end.
The Pegasus was doomed because of Lee Adama. Not Cain.
As far as I'm concerned she was unfit to wear the uniform, never mind hold a command.
The Pegasus was doomed, because of Lee Adama's dumbass, sacrifice a perfectly functional warship ramming speed, tactic.
She was doomed anyway! She was an admiral and the only way on the show to make Adama an admiral was to kill off Cain so that he’d command two Battlestar’s as an admiral! Her incompetence only added to that happening quickly
@@Kalenz1234 It's a joke.
OUT FRAKKEN STANDING 😱🖤💪🏽✅
Cain ordered a wasteful attack that lost her hundreds of crew members and many vipers what an idiot.
She was an absolute nutjob.
What was the XO's plan with that? At best he would have been sent to the brig during a critical moment when they needed him. At worst... well this. Instead of simply refusing a command he should have called the sergeant of the guards and relieved her of command. Gaeta would have saved a lot of people here before dying.
That would've been inciting mutiny though, which could've all too easily made a terrible situation into a disastrous one. I think his plan, however, was he was trying to reason with Cain, get her to see the error of her ways. They were friends, probably for a while, so it makes sense he would try to get through to her. Unfortunately for him, he *vastly* underestimated how ruthless she actually was.
Forbes!!! BADASS!!
I find myself comparing Cain to Poe Dameron at the beginning of Star Wars The Last Jedi where he wastes a ton of resources they can't afford to lose on an all-out assault against a dreadnaught. They succeed, but at enormous cost, and he is rightly reprimanded by superiors who realize they can't stand toe-to-toe against an overwhelmingly superior/ruthless force and need to go into hiding. Fortunately, Poe isn't a psychopath and learns from his mistake, but Cain (and the writers) double down and defend her actions and insist that the audience is ignorant for being disgusted with her and her actions.
If Poe deserved a slap in the face from Leia, Cain certainly deserved a bullet in her twisted little head
Except she doesn't go into hiding. She strips a civilian fleet for parts and personnel, repairs her Vipers, and continues to fight a guerrilla war against the Cylons for the next five months. She only finds Galactica because she is hounding the Cylon Resurrection fleet.
@@bellgrand lol I know
The Poe reprimand was badly written.
The scenario the film presents during the pursuit of the Raddus, had the Dreadnought been in pursuit, would have seen the entire Resistance fleet destroyed by its main armament.
Had he followed Leia's order to withdraw they would all have been killed.
If the film wants to make him out to seem reckless they failed and in the process made Leia seem incompetent.
@@MediumRareOpinionsexcept that Leia immediately sends him out when the First Order arrives. She recognized her mistake but she didn’t have the time to cancel his demotion before she became Mary Poppins
Everyone should have a number 6 😊
i would like a number 6 and a 7 of 9 to do a 69 as I ogle their behinds.
I'll have two number 9's, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45's, one with cheese, and a large soda.
Yeah.. number 6 is freakin hot...
It only dawned on me now the significance of the final shot of Six holding the gun to Cain.
Admiral Cain's Darth Vader moment.
This was a wow moment when the Admiral shot the ExO. Michelle Forbes nailed it!
Just because there was a Cylon that exactly looked like Gina didn't mean that Gina was a Cylon. She could have been a human who the Cylons somehow cloned or made a replica of.
If this series uses real world examples as a framework, then the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) applies to this fictional military.
Anyway, my point is that Cain would almost certainly be found guilty of gross negligence and needlessly wasting military property (and that includes soldiers lives) for little to no discernible results
I know everyone is having a cain hate party here. But she made the right call, the reason the cylons knew they were coming was because of the 6 mole, they would have continuously ambushed her at every turn had she not won this fight here, discovering as a result the nature of that 6. This was when they were best prepared to fight their way through an ambush. So to be clear, in this instance Cain was right, her xo was wrong. copypasta
You could argue given the trap was already sprung she had little choice but to fight if at nothing else a fighting retreat. Along with if you look at the facts the need to destroy the enemies ability to conduct missions which could track you down. simply put she had many reasons why to stay and fight. killing her xo was against ucmj given refusal to follow an order which will knowingly lead to unnecessary death is not a crime,but depending on colonal fleet rules in war time any refusal to follow orders could be mutiny
Here’s the problem, Cain needed to be removed for murdering her XO and scrapping a civilian fleet. Her combat record wasn’t terrible considering the circumstances.
how did the crew not mutiny
Because the show writers didn't want them too. Which is a real shame, that happened several times in BSG. A lot of times background characters do stupid things because the plot. In reality if this happened the Viper pilots would have turned tail and ran, and the crew would have mutinied. Also, when they heard Cain killed the XO, they would have immediately thrown her out of an airlock.
Most of the crew probably was kept out of the loop as to what was happening in CIC and everyone in there was either on her side or feared for their lives. They just watched a woman shoot her best friend for trying to talk her out of making a horrible mistake.
Kinda hard to keep them out of the loop when all of a sudden they have to patch up 300 new holes that were not there before, and when many vipers and pilots go missing. It is true that at the moment, most the crew would not know what was going on, but it would not take long for them to figure it out, and when they did, they would certain mutiny.
@@jacobkleinsasser5658 Well, the ones who weren't killed by the cylon boarding party...
Yeah, you're probably right. But if Cain died, Fisk would have taken over, and he's even more inneffectual than she was.
@@jacobkleinsasser5658 or as they say in the 100 they would have" floated" her ass
Pegasus bridge feels so tiny compared to Galacticas.
total madness... just return the favor I would say
I thought the XO was going to relieve her of her duty and take her into custody...
Wrong move. You can't start disobeying orders during a battle. Crazy
No better drama in the entire series
So you see someone who looks identical to someone else you just spoke to and your first thought is to shoot them? Remember, the concept of human-looking cylons hasn't even occurred to anyone yet. Do twins not exist in BSG?
I'm sure they do, but a crew the size of the one on Pegasus would have known the face of damn near everyone else on the ship with them at this point, and there was no "twin" of the 6 on the ship BEFORE the Cylons landed. So, best case scenario is she's a captive that has been herded onto the ship to soak up possible crossfire from the ships marines, while worse case is she's a Cylon sympathizer, or even a walking bomb, that needs to be taken out before she can do any damage.
Even so, that officer was new to the ship the day the Cylons attacked. It was still a very radical conclusion to jump to straight off the bat.
Actually, Adama had seen Cylons experimenting with and dissecting humans in Blood and Chrome also Adama had seen a humanoid looking Hybrid. This should have been known by Flag Officers in the Fleet.
Well she was walking right behind a cylon and she didn't seemed panicked at all so
Even though Admiral Cain was one of the bad guys, I still loved her.Well done to the actress Michelle Forbes who played her.:)
...But man, I dunno...If I was her XO, I don't think I would've given her my sidearm based upon her history...