I totally agree with you! As a retired teacher, I remember telling my students to read whatever they wanted and to present to the class a well-reasoned commentary on any book they wanted. My grade 5 students, as a result, read voraciously and I’m sure they became life-long readers. That’s what is important. Sooner or later every reader gets tired of reading basic books and wants something more interesting. Let people have fun and excited about books on any platform!
The only reason teachers praise BookTok is because they're desperate to have students read ANYTHING. It matters what you read. And if you're still reading young adult fare as an adult, as legions of these people are, it is genuinely infantilizing and harmful.
@@matthewcaldwell8100 You can put me in the camp of those who think it is more important that kids read than what kids read. (I’m curious to know which books you think students should be assigned to read in school) I think the idea that adults who read YA are infantilized by what they read is as silly as the idea that people who read horror will become desensitized to violence or that people who read spicy romance books will become more likely to have affairs.
@@BookishTexan Like I said, desperation. You think this because the very real alternative in our culture is students not reading anything. And if you were to tell me that students are reading Harry Potter or a Court of Rose and Thorns because they will eventually get to the more challenging literature, I would agree with you. Plenty certainly do. But in a cultural context defined by the Scylla and Charybdis of contempt for the humanities and hypercommodification, what increasingly happens is that they stick with the same remedial fare or simply stop reading altogether as adults. Our declining reading standards are not just the result of student fecklessness. Those students are alert to what our society values and see nothing that tells them sitting with a difficult book is worth the effort. They can't make money off it, they can't get the cheap dopamine hit of checking it off a list, they might not understand everything about it and often enough there is not a satisfying packaged answer waiting to flatter their ego once they're done. The platform you're defending valorizes the failure to live with ambiguity or boredom for even a second. And I have real difficulty believing that you don't see that. As for what I'd prefer, I think students should be accustomed to reading difficult books as soon as they are reasonably able, because it is a civilizationally foundational good to model and celebrate the mature reflection that can only be attained by sustained reading. We don't seem to tell them that they are capable of this; the obsession with academic performance has stratified students into thinking of the attempt as another vapid means of resume burnishing, instead of a minimum standard for character formation. Am I saying that we should chuck Finnegan's Wake at a 5th grader? No. I'm also not saying that anyone should be prevented from reading anything. There is no way back from that kind of paternalism (and guess how I learned that?). I read tons of horror and fantasy when I was younger and would have flipped off anyone who told me I shouldn't. I also read foundational stuff because I benefitted from teachers who didn't particularly care what I thought was interesting. Grapes of Wrath bored me to tears in high school. It's still probably the best book about American poverty I've ever read. Last of all, I'm not saying that adults who read YA are infantilized by it. I'm saying that adults who read nothing but YA are infantilized by it, because, well, they are. Unlike horror desensitizing people to violence or romance making someone more sexually precocious and impulsive, what we're talking about directly impinges on the reading process. Read comparatively simplistic books, develop a comparatively simplistic worldview. Nobody would ever think to defend the tastes of someone who thought The Dark Knight was the height of cinematic achievement (except as a provocative bit of contrarianism). And we should look at people losing their minds on TikTok about how incredible whatever identical romantasy saga the publishers have crapped out this week with the same level of bemused and skeptical pity.
@@matthewcaldwell8100 Forgive me if/when my response doesn't do justice to yours. Also I will be pulling quotes from you comment, not in an attempt to show you up, but so that I can respond to specific ideas without having to scroll back and forth as often. "But in a cultural context defined by the Scylla and Charybdis of contempt for the humanities and hypercommodification, what increasingly happens is that they stick with the same remedial fare or simply stop reading altogether as adults" On the contrary most of the young people whose channels I watch on BookTube and who also post about books on other social media rarely read only YA. Most, as they move into their early to mid-20s move on to other reading, at least in part and many already challenge themselves with classics like Frankenstein and Jane Austen early on. I think you are only seeing the surface and not the depth, though that depth may not be as deep as you would wish. "They can't make money off it, they can't get the cheap dopamine hit of checking it off a list, they might not understand everything about it and often enough there is not a satisfying packaged answer waiting to flatter their ego once they're done." Having taught for 31 years and having two of my own kids in their 20s I do not have the same low opinion of young people that you have. If anything I find them to be more sincere and less money driven than my generation (X) ever was. " I also read foundational stuff because I benefitted from teachers who didn't particularly care what I thought was interesting. Grapes of Wrath bored me to tears in high school. It's still probably the best book about American poverty I've ever read. " And how many of your classmates stopped reading all together as a result of being forced to read work they found boring? How many more people in your generation went on to read challenging works as an adult than do now? I think you valorize the past and hold the present generation to a standard that never existed. "I'm saying that adults who read nothing but YA are infantilized by it, because, well, they are. " In what way are the infantilized by it? (assuming that there are adults who read only YA) " And we should look at people losing their minds on TikTok about how incredible whatever identical romantasy saga the publishers have crapped out this week with the same level of bemused and skeptical pity." Have you read any YA? In my experience it often contains challenging ideas and situations that, yes, are almost always resolved in the most pleasant way, but they are rarely as vapid as you make them out to be. Are they serious works of literature, no, but I don't think they or their fans make that claim. The books are fun and they enjoy them. Turning that into a bad thing takes a great deal of cynicism.
I think BookTok get's criticised because it's the realm of the young, and often young women and while there is definitely an aspect of ageism and sexism, I think it's just as much about stereotyping and fitting in or not fitting in. It's really quite similar to how a section of Booktube is labelled YA. What I think a lot of more experience readers forget is that we have started reading somewhere, and we all had a reading journey, and had we have been born a few decades later, we would probably be watching BookTOk.
Excellent points. I do find myself fighting an internal battle of sorts against a part of me that can too easily fall into labeling of the new or the things that young people like as things that are less or frivolous. I feel like I have a preset generational reaction that I have to remind myself to fight against by reminding myself of the points you made in your comment.
This was very interesting, I haven’t seen Kieran’s video. As the mother to 18 & 14yo daughters I find it disappointing that people in 2024 are still monitoring what they believe to be acceptable behaviour and reading choices for anyone. Let people read what they enjoy. Let all ages have fun on TikTok, if that is their thing. (Must admit not mine). I have struggled for my 14yo to finish a book that she didn’t have to read for school. She would say it’s not what she enjoyed. She is currently reading a book, actively talking to her friends about it and didn’t groan when we went in a bookshop. All because of TikTok. To me that’s a good thing.
I appreciate your intent, but I think it's important to monitor what your children read to understand what is influencing them. My son went through a phase when he 'dated' a girl who wanted him to read the Left Behind series because her church recommended it. He lost interest in it, so it never became a problem, but I'm glad I knew what he was getting into so I could guide him.
That seems like a great endorsement for TikTok! If it gets people to read, I’m for it. Those who criticize it seem to imagine that if the book content on TikTok were more “serious” that young people would all become lifetime readers of only “serious” books which is a very silly thing to think.
@anges_book_chatter Hello. After rereading my comment, I realised it could have been read as very snarky and judgemental when, of course, I knew nothing about you. I only meant that, as a parent, I worried a lot. Probably more than necessary. My bad. Cheers.
@@Barklord I think you mean well but you are making an assumption there as she didn’t say she wasn’t aware of what her child was reading. If the book is suitable for their age (i.e. not inappropriately violent or sexual), then parents and teachers can opt to talk with children about any ideas or content that they encounter rather than shielding them from it like it doesn’t exist. If we assume that reading about something will automatically lead to a change in behaviour, then I’d have an interest in war due to the amount of WW2 content I had to consume at school but I don’t. Developing a critical mind is helped by reading ideas or content that challenges our preconceived notions of the world and questioning it. Children will encounter problematic content and behaviour and we can teach them to examine and question it thoughtfully.
For three years I had a student tell me she hated reading and would never read a book, but then one day she was telling me she had started listening to people on TikTok reading out books every evening before she went to bed. When I finally made her realise this was basically an audiobook she actually started asking for book recommendations and reading things herself. I think BookTok is good for people who use it, but I realise it’s not for me and that’s fine. I dislike any social media that only “talks” about books on a surface level, but with no depth, and that’s something you get on Instagram and UA-cam as well as TikTok. We are not immune from people posting videos where they only show pretty book covers but don’t say anything of value. I know there is more interesting content on TikTok, but unfortunately for me there is too much banal content to wade through to get to the stuff I would prefer.
I didn’t realize people read out books on BookTok. That’s kind of cool, like little free samples of books. I have no interest in getting into TikTok either. Like you I’m sure there is good stuff there, but I don’t have the patience to scroll for it. I waste enough time watch for funny stuff on Instagram that I can share with my wife and kids.
Good video! A long story from a different perspective. One year I had a student who was obviously militantly disinterested in my class (basically writing about what you've read). I'd said a couple times that students could read what they wanted. One day he asked if he could read books about cars, obviously expecting to be shot down. I said "Sure, you bet." His paper was not too good, mostly just saying he loved the book. We sat down and again he was expecting the worst. I congratulated him on enjoying the book and asked what he liked about it. As he gradually explained I kept drawing him out and he went into extensive detail about the various cars discussed. Finally I said, "I wish all that had been in your paper." Dumbfounded he asked if I really wanted to read that. Yep. I had a happy camper for the rest of the semester and his writing gradually improved as he tried to do a good job. I like that your channel is so open to a variety of viewpoints. Reading is a big tent.
@@tortoisedreams6369 That’s a great story. In my college history class I used to encourage my students to come up with their own two sided topic based on their interests. It seemed to help. Thanks for your comment.
Great points! I definitely agree there is nothing wrong with more people reading more books they enjoy and getting other people interested in reading through their enjoyment. We all read for different reasons too.
Agree completely. The idea there are any scholarly standards on platforms that also have videos of people lighting fireworks out of bodily orifices is hilarious to me. The folks who get bent out of shape about this can always go back to university and be surrounded by folks with a baseline of scholarly knowledge
Thanks, Brian!🌷I’ve seen a student reading The Song of Achilles because of TikTok, then A Thousand Ships by Natalie Haynes and then… Trojan Women by Euripides. So, welcome, TikTok!
I can't find any downside to more people reading, talking about books and getting excited about book shopping or library trips. I don't frequent TikTok myself because I don't like the pacing but I'm all for reading content about any genre on every platform.
I remember walking the fantasy aisle at a Barnes and Noble years ago and a lady asks me "why do you like Fantasy?" and proceeds to tell me her daughter likes Fantasy and that in her opinion it isn't literature or "intellectual". I told her school made me hate reading. My Step Dad handed me a scifi book and told me to try and I've been a reader ever since. My point is, we as readers should be happy people continue to read at all. Intellectual reading is completely subjective and is usually a list of books that hasn't been updated in 70 years. Loved the video, I'm not an old man yet (37) but also have these dang opinions. Haha
HA! You can be an honorary old man! Agree completely. Almost any reading is good. I think lots of people have this fantasy that some time in the mid 20th century everybody read and they only read "serious literature." That just isnt true.
Hi Brian, I’m not against any social media that promotes books, but I’m not for TikTok for other reasons. I’m cutting down all my social media except UA-cam. I even cut out TV for the most part except for dancing and singing competitions.😊 . And the Tony award. As for intellectualism, I find more than enough on this platform. It’s been like school for me, even though I have a college degree. I’ve always had a loaf of learning, but I was brought in a disadvantage neighborhood where the schools were subpar. I’ve been catching up ever since. Aloha friend.
Hi Maya! Im not going to start with TikTok either and like you I don’t watch much TV though my weakness is sports. BookTube has been and is an education for me as well.
Agree with you Brian. I hate book snobbery although I guess sometimes we can all at times be guilty of it on occasion. As long as people aren’t causing harm to others then a community that encourages more people to read is never a bad thing IMO 📚❤️
Completely agree! This whole TikTok bashing is just a new version of a perennial debate regarding the gate keeping of reading and book snobbery which is usually or disproportionately targeted at what young women read. It’s awful. I also understand that people are concerned with the excess of a certain type of book being promoted but I see these books as a gateway into reading for many who wouldn’t consider picking up a book otherwise. Eventually they will start looking for different types of fiction - that’s how reading tastes develop for all of us or I’d still be reading Enid Blyton - though occasionally I still do! 😂
YES! And the critics of BookTok act as though if the books most promoted on the platform didn’t exist that the people reading them would automatically turn to so called “serious” literature when the most likely outcome is that they never would have gotten into reading at all.
I got introduced to tiktok when i was bed bound after surgery and had a very short attention span and it did keep me company as it were, as i could not make it through a long form on YT. I did come across booktok and yes i did come across a lot of the same books again and again, mainly by younger woman like you say, but i just swipe past them. I have never been a book snob, but i have come across it on many platforms, YT especially sadly. Great discussion 😊
Thank you. I think people who criticize BookTok forget that they control what they see and if they don’t want see the content that bothers them they can swipe past and that by doing so the algorithm will show them less of that content.
@@BookishTexan I think you forget that TikTok will rationalize any attention paid to anything, and that you are more than allowed to criticize something as stupid or harmful without the sodden comeback that "you don't have to look at it" being taken seriously.
@@matthewcaldwell8100 I think given the way algorithms work it isn’t a “sodden” to suggest that scrolling past without engaging is a solution to being inundated with the kind TikTok videos you don’t want to see. Each users experience is curated by their engagement so if you are seeing only the kind of content you don’t like it’s actually your fault for engaging with it.
Another great take Brian. I turn to BookTok sometimes when I need to cleanse my brain of the absolute grief-porn that is intellectual literature. I don't read enough or follow enough content for the trashy books, so a short TikTok recommendation is perfect. I've got a bit of burnout from BookTube prize nonfiction judging . I have for sure learned my lesson on being assigned a horrific page-count in a genre that is either interesting, or feels like a forced march into a volcano. Bring on the fluff.
I try to avoid grief porn myself though I do like a sad story sometimes. I think we all need some fluffy books to clear our minds of gloom from time to time. Sorry your non-fiction prize reading has been a slog. Thanks Kelly.
I do love the possibilities of longer-form conversations-so much so that I‘ve never watched TikTok at all. But clearly many people do see its appeal. And from what I hear, book sales have risen in the last few years. Harry Potter supposedly brought a lot of people to reading, and now TikTok books may be doing the same. Did HP fanatics grow up and go on to being obsessive Booker Prize long list readers? The critics of booktok seem to think viewers would be readers anyway without the trendiness. I’m not sure that is true.
Your point about critics thinking BookTok viewers would naturally gravitate towards more “serious” books is a great one which exposes the lack of seriousness behind the criticism.
@@BookishTexan I admit that I hope excitement about reading will gradually hook these readers on a wider range of books-including perhaps more challenging ones. But I have trouble imagining that “serious” readers are going to gravitate exclusively to the trendy books because of TikTok. (Meanwhile, I am thinking I fell in love with Jane Eyre as a youngster for pretty much the same reasons people love some of the trendy reads…)
@@HannahsBooks You are right it probably is equally unlikely that serious reader’s are going to become trapped by BookTok as that enthusiasm will spread the other way, but like you I have hope.
Great discussion video - Tiktok is a unique beast but ultimately it's social media, and produced by the public - the Tiktok videos will be encouraging reading, and that's a good thing.
I was thinking yesterday morning as I was plugging in my fitbit, plugging in my pc, and plugging in my phone to take a country down all they have to do is remove the electricity. Then I looked around at my bookshelves and all the books I have and thought I'm going to be fine. 😊
I think like everything BookTok has its pros and cons. I'm just dipping my toe into the waters of TikTok posting a few different videos just to see what happens, but most of my social media time is devoted to UA-cam. I also think the book aesthetic of booktok might encourage a younger audience to venture into bookshops, which is a good thing.
This is the same discussion that was on Booktube 5-6 years ago. Both are platforms that allow everyone to find those they gel with and can just ignore those they don’t. Why are we still having these discussions, and to be honest it is not new views or observations - because publishing has always been the same game - give the people what they want, or think they want until they are sick of it and then move on to the next one. Simply look at the similarities in even covers of books. I guess the best thing to say about these constantly repetitive subjects it gives us booktubers a chance to make a video. We just change out the word Booktube and insert BookTok, Bookstagram…. Can’t wait until the Booktokers start their version - better be able to talk quickly.
I am not on Booktok. I was briefly shown a little of it. It seems to be a fan-based promotional space more than an analytical space. My main issue with the stereotypical books promoted there is the lack of healthy relationships in those books. Also, a trans woman pointed out that Booktok seems to be populated, not just by young women, but by middle aged women. These middle aged women tend to giggle over the spice in romantasy as if they've just discovered they're allowed to have sexual fantasies for the first time. It's puritanical and immature. If what she pointed out is true, I find that troubling. I remember being taught puritanical views and being unable to have healthy fantasies. I'm glad I didn't embarrass myself by publicly turning to unhealthy fantasies.
I think everything you said about BookTok is likely true, but also mostly harmless. I’m sure there are people of all ages expressing themselves in over the top ways that I would find embarrassing and cringy and that many of the books promoted feature unhealthy relationships. I’m just not sure there is a lot of harm in it and that it can be avoided.
Good stuff. The only thing I’d add is that if publishers weren’t following this trend, they’d be following another. It’s not fad versus a hypothetical world of primary attention going to thoughtful work of high artistic merit. That’s never been the biggest thing and never will be. Popular fluffy fiction needs to be compared with other popular fluffy fiction, because there’s good fluff and bad fluff.
@@BookishTexan Thanks! I’ve been thinking about this for a long time, as someone who has some very high-brow and/or esoteric tastes and some mass-market ones.
I think there is definitely a lot of vitriol toward the things young women like. Taylor Swift. Romance books. Rainbow bookshelves. Young Adult Fiction. You name it and I’ve seen some Lit Bro write a diatribe about why it’s not valid. The reality is that booktok, Bookstagram, and booktube have breathed new life into reading. I have friends who haven’t read a book since high school who are suddenly picking up books. It is helping publishing. It is helping authors. And in terms of indie authors, quite a few of them have blown up on booktok. Olivie Blake is one I can think of off the top of my head. A few years ago no one had heard of her and now she’s got 5-6 books published.
Thank you for adding your knowledge to my supposing. When you get down to what the critics are really angry about it is clear their anger is directed at young women who are breaking through the gates of traditional power in the publishing industry and exerting their economic and creative influence. The more lit bros I see making videos crying about it the more convinced I am.
I'm a little late to this conversation so I apologize if I repeat anything that had been already said. As a teacher, I encourage any medium that will help young people learn to express themselves and TikTok is just one of them. Also, anything that helps with getting people to pick up a book at all is A+ in my world. I am coming from an environment where kids are simply turning to AI to think and make decisions for them which I find much more concerning than what kinds of books are being read because they heard about it on TikTok (just to give some perspective!)
In my most dystopian moods I fear that very soon future generations encouraged by corporations will off load any and all creative work or “brain” work to AI and reduce us to even more complete dependence on our corporate oligarchs than we already are. Now I’ve depressed myself.
I personally am not on booktok and am not interested in tiktok in any way, but been recently watching quite a few discussion videos on booktok and it seems like that is a different world and that people try to assign grand ideas to these trends and short form videos. A lot of it comes down to expectations, doesn't it? If you want a deep dive analysis of a book and go to fluffy praise content you can only be disappointed. It takes a lot of guts to blame the creator for not making what you want. On the publishing side I am in no way sure about this, but I think what people forget is that a big selling book gives the publishing house money so they can invest in less safe books. Not sure if this still happens, but I think that was often an argument for celebrity books which guarantee sales and thus there's money to invest in new authors created. I think I digressed.
I think we agree completely. Even your digression is similar to my digression. I honestly think there are some people who feel if they aren’t hating on something they won’t be taken seriously.
@@BookishTexan Yes, well said. Why do people enjoy hating so much? My inner critic constantly correcs myself when I say I hate something, as honestly I mostly dislike it. Hate is such a strong and exhausting emotion to choose for your go to feeling.
I hate to say it, but I think I have reached old lady status. TikTok was the first social media platform that I just didn’t try out. My high school bestie sends me political TikTok’s once in a while but that’s as much as I can handle.
What is BookTok? Yes...I'm joking but I've never watched one, I have no idea what it is other than my ADHD daughter has seen a few. She doesn't read so it clearly has no impact on her. I remember back in the day there was this same argument about comic books, and I always recall my uncle who was a teacher thought comics were a perfectly legitimate entry into reading.
Exactly right. There will always be something new with books that people will react negatively to. BookTok is the latest, I loved those Illustrated Classics comics, though I only got to read a few.
People reading is not anti-intellectual. People watching videos (TikTok, UA-cam, ...) on reading is not anti-intellectual. People complaining that experts in their field do not know as much as amateurs IS anti-intellectualism. .
Had to start using an iPad recently instead of my old MacBook and soon received an invitation to join TikTok which I foolishly accepted. Now sometimes it’s hard to get it off when I want to and they also want to know a lot of info about me which I don’t like either. I don’t think I’ve actually seen BookTok yet but it’ll probably pop up sooner or later. Anyway I saw KD’s video u talked about but even though I think he’s a brilliant guy I already know enough not to to take the opinions about books I see on the web that seriously or anything else for that matter.⚛️
I’ve avoided TikTok thankfully. In part because when I was teaching I didn’t want to be on any social media where I was likely to see things produced by my students.
“People reading books that make them happy.” Nailed it
100% ❤
I totally agree with you! As a retired teacher, I remember telling my students to read whatever they wanted and to present to the class a well-reasoned commentary on any book they wanted. My grade 5 students, as a result, read voraciously and I’m sure they became life-long readers. That’s what is important. Sooner or later every reader gets tired of reading basic books and wants something more interesting. Let people have fun and excited about books on any platform!
I hope you are right about people who start off reading trendy books moving on to more challenging books.
The only reason teachers praise BookTok is because they're desperate to have students read ANYTHING. It matters what you read. And if you're still reading young adult fare as an adult, as legions of these people are, it is genuinely infantilizing and harmful.
@@matthewcaldwell8100 You can put me in the camp of those who think it is more important that kids read than what kids read. (I’m curious to know which books you think students should be assigned to read in school)
I think the idea that adults who read YA are infantilized by what they read is as silly as the idea that people who read horror will become desensitized to violence or that people who read spicy romance books will become more likely to have affairs.
@@BookishTexan Like I said, desperation. You think this because the very real alternative in our culture is students not reading anything. And if you were to tell me that students are reading Harry Potter or a Court of Rose and Thorns because they will eventually get to the more challenging literature, I would agree with you. Plenty certainly do.
But in a cultural context defined by the Scylla and Charybdis of contempt for the humanities and hypercommodification, what increasingly happens is that they stick with the same remedial fare or simply stop reading altogether as adults. Our declining reading standards are not just the result of student fecklessness. Those students are alert to what our society values and see nothing that tells them sitting with a difficult book is worth the effort. They can't make money off it, they can't get the cheap dopamine hit of checking it off a list, they might not understand everything about it and often enough there is not a satisfying packaged answer waiting to flatter their ego once they're done. The platform you're defending valorizes the failure to live with ambiguity or boredom for even a second. And I have real difficulty believing that you don't see that.
As for what I'd prefer, I think students should be accustomed to reading difficult books as soon as they are reasonably able, because it is a civilizationally foundational good to model and celebrate the mature reflection that can only be attained by sustained reading. We don't seem to tell them that they are capable of this; the obsession with academic performance has stratified students into thinking of the attempt as another vapid means of resume burnishing, instead of a minimum standard for character formation. Am I saying that we should chuck Finnegan's Wake at a 5th grader? No. I'm also not saying that anyone should be prevented from reading anything. There is no way back from that kind of paternalism (and guess how I learned that?). I read tons of horror and fantasy when I was younger and would have flipped off anyone who told me I shouldn't. I also read foundational stuff because I benefitted from teachers who didn't particularly care what I thought was interesting. Grapes of Wrath bored me to tears in high school. It's still probably the best book about American poverty I've ever read.
Last of all, I'm not saying that adults who read YA are infantilized by it. I'm saying that adults who read nothing but YA are infantilized by it, because, well, they are. Unlike horror desensitizing people to violence or romance making someone more sexually precocious and impulsive, what we're talking about directly impinges on the reading process. Read comparatively simplistic books, develop a comparatively simplistic worldview. Nobody would ever think to defend the tastes of someone who thought The Dark Knight was the height of cinematic achievement (except as a provocative bit of contrarianism). And we should look at people losing their minds on TikTok about how incredible whatever identical romantasy saga the publishers have crapped out this week with the same level of bemused and skeptical pity.
@@matthewcaldwell8100 Forgive me if/when my response doesn't do justice to yours. Also I will be pulling quotes from you comment, not in an attempt to show you up, but so that I can respond to specific ideas without having to scroll back and forth as often.
"But in a cultural context defined by the Scylla and Charybdis of contempt for the humanities and hypercommodification, what increasingly happens is that they stick with the same remedial fare or simply stop reading altogether as adults"
On the contrary most of the young people whose channels I watch on BookTube and who also post about books on other social media rarely read only YA. Most, as they move into their early to mid-20s move on to other reading, at least in part and many already challenge themselves with classics like Frankenstein and Jane Austen early on. I think you are only seeing the surface and not the depth, though that depth may not be as deep as you would wish.
"They can't make money off it, they can't get the cheap dopamine hit of checking it off a list, they might not understand everything about it and often enough there is not a satisfying packaged answer waiting to flatter their ego once they're done."
Having taught for 31 years and having two of my own kids in their 20s I do not have the same low opinion of young people that you have. If anything I find them to be more sincere and less money driven than my generation (X) ever was.
" I also read foundational stuff because I benefitted from teachers who didn't particularly care what I thought was interesting. Grapes of Wrath bored me to tears in high school. It's still probably the best book about American poverty I've ever read. "
And how many of your classmates stopped reading all together as a result of being forced to read work they found boring? How many more people in your generation went on to read challenging works as an adult than do now? I think you valorize the past and hold the present generation to a standard that never existed.
"I'm saying that adults who read nothing but YA are infantilized by it, because, well, they are. "
In what way are the infantilized by it? (assuming that there are adults who read only YA)
" And we should look at people losing their minds on TikTok about how incredible whatever identical romantasy saga the publishers have crapped out this week with the same level of bemused and skeptical pity."
Have you read any YA? In my experience it often contains challenging ideas and situations that, yes, are almost always resolved in the most pleasant way, but they are rarely as vapid as you make them out to be. Are they serious works of literature, no, but I don't think they or their fans make that claim. The books are fun and they enjoy them. Turning that into a bad thing takes a great deal of cynicism.
I think BookTok get's criticised because it's the realm of the young, and often young women and while there is definitely an aspect of ageism and sexism, I think it's just as much about stereotyping and fitting in or not fitting in. It's really quite similar to how a section of Booktube is labelled YA. What I think a lot of more experience readers forget is that we have started reading somewhere, and we all had a reading journey, and had we have been born a few decades later, we would probably be watching BookTOk.
Excellent points. I do find myself fighting an internal battle of sorts against a part of me that can too easily fall into labeling of the new or the things that young people like as things that are less or frivolous. I feel like I have a preset generational reaction that I have to remind myself to fight against by reminding myself of the points you made in your comment.
This was very interesting, I haven’t seen Kieran’s video. As the mother to 18 & 14yo daughters I find it disappointing that people in 2024 are still monitoring what they believe to be acceptable behaviour and reading choices for anyone. Let people read what they enjoy. Let all ages have fun on TikTok, if that is their thing. (Must admit not mine). I have struggled for my 14yo to finish a book that she didn’t have to read for school. She would say it’s not what she enjoyed. She is currently reading a book, actively talking to her friends about it and didn’t groan when we went in a bookshop. All because of TikTok. To me that’s a good thing.
I appreciate your intent, but I think it's important to monitor what your children read to understand what is influencing them. My son went through a phase when he 'dated' a girl who wanted him to read the Left Behind series because her church recommended it. He lost interest in it, so it never became a problem, but I'm glad I knew what he was getting into so I could guide him.
@@Barklord I appreciate your comment, and I do consider what my children consume and what influence it will have.
That seems like a great endorsement for TikTok! If it gets people to read, I’m for it. Those who criticize it seem to imagine that if the book content on TikTok were more “serious” that young people would all become lifetime readers of only “serious” books which is a very silly thing to think.
@anges_book_chatter Hello. After rereading my comment, I realised it could have been read as very snarky and judgemental when, of course, I knew nothing about you. I only meant that, as a parent, I worried a lot. Probably more than necessary. My bad. Cheers.
@@Barklord I think you mean well but you are making an assumption there as she didn’t say she wasn’t aware of what her child was reading. If the book is suitable for their age (i.e. not inappropriately violent or sexual), then parents and teachers can opt to talk with children about any ideas or content that they encounter rather than shielding them from it like it doesn’t exist. If we assume that reading about something will automatically lead to a change in behaviour, then I’d have an interest in war due to the amount of WW2 content I had to consume at school but I don’t. Developing a critical mind is helped by reading ideas or content that challenges our preconceived notions of the world and questioning it. Children will encounter problematic content and behaviour and we can teach them to examine and question it thoughtfully.
For three years I had a student tell me she hated reading and would never read a book, but then one day she was telling me she had started listening to people on TikTok reading out books every evening before she went to bed. When I finally made her realise this was basically an audiobook she actually started asking for book recommendations and reading things herself. I think BookTok is good for people who use it, but I realise it’s not for me and that’s fine. I dislike any social media that only “talks” about books on a surface level, but with no depth, and that’s something you get on Instagram and UA-cam as well as TikTok. We are not immune from people posting videos where they only show pretty book covers but don’t say anything of value. I know there is more interesting content on TikTok, but unfortunately for me there is too much banal content to wade through to get to the stuff I would prefer.
I didn’t realize people read out books on BookTok. That’s kind of cool, like little free samples of books.
I have no interest in getting into TikTok either. Like you I’m sure there is good stuff there, but I don’t have the patience to scroll for it. I waste enough time watch for funny stuff on Instagram that I can share with my wife and kids.
Good video! A long story from a different perspective. One year I had a student who was obviously militantly disinterested in my class (basically writing about what you've read). I'd said a couple times that students could read what they wanted. One day he asked if he could read books about cars, obviously expecting to be shot down. I said "Sure, you bet." His paper was not too good, mostly just saying he loved the book. We sat down and again he was expecting the worst. I congratulated him on enjoying the book and asked what he liked about it. As he gradually explained I kept drawing him out and he went into extensive detail about the various cars discussed. Finally I said, "I wish all that had been in your paper." Dumbfounded he asked if I really wanted to read that. Yep. I had a happy camper for the rest of the semester and his writing gradually improved as he tried to do a good job. I like that your channel is so open to a variety of viewpoints. Reading is a big tent.
@@tortoisedreams6369 That’s a great story. In my college history class I used to encourage my students to come up with their own two sided topic based on their interests. It seemed to help. Thanks for your comment.
Great points! I definitely agree there is nothing wrong with more people reading more books they enjoy and getting other people interested in reading through their enjoyment. We all read for different reasons too.
Absolutely and I don’t think there are any bad reasons for reading.
Agree completely. The idea there are any scholarly standards on platforms that also have videos of people lighting fireworks out of bodily orifices is hilarious to me. The folks who get bent out of shape about this can always go back to university and be surrounded by folks with a baseline of scholarly knowledge
Love this comment! Exactly. Expecting TikTok to produce deep meaningful analysis is ridiculous.
Thanks, Brian!🌷I’ve seen a student reading The Song of Achilles because of TikTok, then A Thousand Ships by Natalie Haynes and then… Trojan Women by Euripides. So, welcome, TikTok!
@@emmavd That is great. A good example of exactly what I hoped/guessed was true.
I can't find any downside to more people reading, talking about books and getting excited about book shopping or library trips. I don't frequent TikTok myself because I don't like the pacing but I'm all for reading content about any genre on every platform.
Me either. Most of the criticism seems to me to be pretty snooty.
I remember walking the fantasy aisle at a Barnes and Noble years ago and a lady asks me "why do you like Fantasy?" and proceeds to tell me her daughter likes Fantasy and that in her opinion it isn't literature or "intellectual". I told her school made me hate reading. My Step Dad handed me a scifi book and told me to try and I've been a reader ever since. My point is, we as readers should be happy people continue to read at all. Intellectual reading is completely subjective and is usually a list of books that hasn't been updated in 70 years. Loved the video, I'm not an old man yet (37) but also have these dang opinions. Haha
HA! You can be an honorary old man! Agree completely. Almost any reading is good. I think lots of people have this fantasy that some time in the mid 20th century everybody read and they only read "serious literature." That just isnt true.
Hi Brian, I’m not against any social media that promotes books, but I’m not for TikTok for other reasons. I’m cutting down all my social media except UA-cam. I even cut out TV for the most part except for dancing and singing competitions.😊 . And the Tony award. As for intellectualism, I find more than enough on this platform. It’s been like school for me, even though I have a college degree. I’ve always had a loaf of learning, but I was brought in a disadvantage neighborhood where the schools were subpar. I’ve been catching up ever since. Aloha friend.
Hi Maya! Im not going to start with TikTok either and like you I don’t watch much TV though my weakness is sports. BookTube has been and is an education for me as well.
Agree with you Brian. I hate book snobbery although I guess sometimes we can all at times be guilty of it on occasion. As long as people aren’t causing harm to others then a community that encourages more people to read is never a bad thing IMO 📚❤️
@@CharlieBrookReads Thanks Charlie. If we agree then I know I’m on the right path.
Completely agree! This whole TikTok bashing is just a new version of a perennial debate regarding the gate keeping of reading and book snobbery which is usually or disproportionately targeted at what young women read. It’s awful. I also understand that people are concerned with the excess of a certain type of book being promoted but I see these books as a gateway into reading for many who wouldn’t consider picking up a book otherwise. Eventually they will start looking for different types of fiction - that’s how reading tastes develop for all of us or I’d still be reading Enid Blyton - though occasionally I still do! 😂
YES! And the critics of BookTok act as though if the books most promoted on the platform didn’t exist that the people reading them would automatically turn to so called “serious” literature when the most likely outcome is that they never would have gotten into reading at all.
@@BookishTexan 💯
I got introduced to tiktok when i was bed bound after surgery and had a very short attention span and it did keep me company as it were, as i could not make it through a long form on YT.
I did come across booktok and yes i did come across a lot of the same books again and again, mainly by younger woman like you say, but i just swipe past them.
I have never been a book snob, but i have come across it on many platforms, YT especially sadly.
Great discussion 😊
Thank you. I think people who criticize BookTok forget that they control what they see and if they don’t want see the content that bothers them they can swipe past and that by doing so the algorithm will show them less of that content.
@@BookishTexan I think you forget that TikTok will rationalize any attention paid to anything, and that you are more than allowed to criticize something as stupid or harmful without the sodden comeback that "you don't have to look at it" being taken seriously.
@@matthewcaldwell8100 I think given the way algorithms work it isn’t a “sodden” to suggest that scrolling past without engaging is a solution to being inundated with the kind TikTok videos you don’t want to see. Each users experience is curated by their engagement so if you are seeing only the kind of content you don’t like it’s actually your fault for engaging with it.
Another great take Brian. I turn to BookTok sometimes when I need to cleanse my brain of the absolute grief-porn that is intellectual literature. I don't read enough or follow enough content for the trashy books, so a short TikTok recommendation is perfect. I've got a bit of burnout from BookTube prize nonfiction judging . I have for sure learned my lesson on being assigned a horrific page-count in a genre that is either interesting, or feels like a forced march into a volcano. Bring on the fluff.
I try to avoid grief porn myself though I do like a sad story sometimes. I think we all need some fluffy books to clear our minds of gloom from time to time. Sorry your non-fiction prize reading has been a slog. Thanks Kelly.
I do love the possibilities of longer-form conversations-so much so that I‘ve never watched TikTok at all. But clearly many people do see its appeal. And from what I hear, book sales have risen in the last few years. Harry Potter supposedly brought a lot of people to reading, and now TikTok books may be doing the same. Did HP fanatics grow up and go on to being obsessive Booker Prize long list readers? The critics of booktok seem to think viewers would be readers anyway without the trendiness. I’m not sure that is true.
Your point about critics thinking BookTok viewers would naturally gravitate towards more “serious” books is a great one which exposes the lack of seriousness behind the criticism.
@@BookishTexan I admit that I hope excitement about reading will gradually hook these readers on a wider range of books-including perhaps more challenging ones. But I have trouble imagining that “serious” readers are going to gravitate exclusively to the trendy books because of TikTok. (Meanwhile, I am thinking I fell in love with Jane Eyre as a youngster for pretty much the same reasons people love some of the trendy reads…)
@@HannahsBooks You are right it probably is equally unlikely that serious reader’s are going to become trapped by BookTok as that enthusiasm will spread the other way, but like you I have hope.
Great discussion video - Tiktok is a unique beast but ultimately it's social media, and produced by the public - the Tiktok videos will be encouraging reading, and that's a good thing.
Thanks Gareth. It’s hard for me to imagine anything that encourages reading as a bad thing.
I was thinking yesterday morning as I was plugging in my fitbit, plugging in my pc, and plugging in my phone to take a country down all they have to do is remove the electricity. Then I looked around at my bookshelves and all the books I have and thought I'm going to be fine. 😊
I thought something similar when I saw one of those what would you do if you were the last person on Earth memes yesterday.
I think like everything BookTok has its pros and cons. I'm just dipping my toe into the waters of TikTok posting a few different videos just to see what happens, but most of my social media time is devoted to UA-cam. I also think the book aesthetic of booktok might encourage a younger audience to venture into bookshops, which is a good thing.
Yes exactly! If BookTok encourages people to try reading and to dabble in books to me it is a good thing.
This is the same discussion that was on Booktube 5-6 years ago. Both are platforms that allow everyone to find those they gel with and can just ignore those they don’t. Why are we still having these discussions, and to be honest it is not new views or observations - because publishing has always been the same game - give the people what they want, or think they want until they are sick of it and then move on to the next one. Simply look at the similarities in even covers of books. I guess the best thing to say about these constantly repetitive subjects it gives us booktubers a chance to make a video. We just change out the word Booktube and insert BookTok, Bookstagram…. Can’t wait until the Booktokers start their version - better be able to talk quickly.
@@ColorfulBooknester Thanks for watching my repetitive, unoriginal video.
I am not on Booktok. I was briefly shown a little of it. It seems to be a fan-based promotional space more than an analytical space. My main issue with the stereotypical books promoted there is the lack of healthy relationships in those books. Also, a trans woman pointed out that Booktok seems to be populated, not just by young women, but by middle aged women. These middle aged women tend to giggle over the spice in romantasy as if they've just discovered they're allowed to have sexual fantasies for the first time. It's puritanical and immature. If what she pointed out is true, I find that troubling. I remember being taught puritanical views and being unable to have healthy fantasies. I'm glad I didn't embarrass myself by publicly turning to unhealthy fantasies.
I think everything you said about BookTok is likely true, but also mostly harmless. I’m sure there are people of all ages expressing themselves in over the top ways that I would find embarrassing and cringy and that many of the books promoted feature unhealthy relationships. I’m just not sure there is a lot of harm in it and that it can be avoided.
Nailed it! Book snobbery! At least people are reading! Let everyone read what they want to read! PERIOD
@@Blush210 Exactly
Is this the start of BEEF between us?! 😂
🥩 🥩 🥩!
Good stuff. The only thing I’d add is that if publishers weren’t following this trend, they’d be following another. It’s not fad versus a hypothetical world of primary attention going to thoughtful work of high artistic merit. That’s never been the biggest thing and never will be. Popular fluffy fiction needs to be compared with other popular fluffy fiction, because there’s good fluff and bad fluff.
Exactly right. You articulated this far better than I did. Thank you.
@@BookishTexan Thanks! I’ve been thinking about this for a long time, as someone who has some very high-brow and/or esoteric tastes and some mass-market ones.
I’m not aware of BookTok at all. I’m sure what you say is right. Though I don’t mind overhearing a little well phrased book snobbery.
Haha! I’m only aware of BookTok second hand.
I think there is definitely a lot of vitriol toward the things young women like. Taylor Swift. Romance books. Rainbow bookshelves. Young Adult Fiction. You name it and I’ve seen some Lit Bro write a diatribe about why it’s not valid.
The reality is that booktok, Bookstagram, and booktube have breathed new life into reading. I have friends who haven’t read a book since high school who are suddenly picking up books. It is helping publishing. It is helping authors.
And in terms of indie authors, quite a few of them have blown up on booktok. Olivie Blake is one I can think of off the top of my head. A few years ago no one had heard of her and now she’s got 5-6 books published.
Thank you for adding your knowledge to my supposing. When you get down to what the critics are really angry about it is clear their anger is directed at young women who are breaking through the gates of traditional power in the publishing industry and exerting their economic and creative influence. The more lit bros I see making videos crying about it the more convinced I am.
As you said, people read what makes them happy. I don’t get the angst about Booktok. Anything that gets people reading is ok by me.
Yep! 100%
I'm a little late to this conversation so I apologize if I repeat anything that had been already said. As a teacher, I encourage any medium that will help young people learn to express themselves and TikTok is just one of them. Also, anything that helps with getting people to pick up a book at all is A+ in my world. I am coming from an environment where kids are simply turning to AI to think and make decisions for them which I find much more concerning than what kinds of books are being read because they heard about it on TikTok (just to give some perspective!)
P.S. Hardly an old man Brian! Think spring chicken!
In my most dystopian moods I fear that very soon future generations encouraged by corporations will off load any and all creative work or “brain” work to AI and reduce us to even more complete dependence on our corporate oligarchs than we already are.
Now I’ve depressed myself.
Thanks 👴🏼
@@BookishTexan Maybe it will all be ok if it just makes people happy 😆
I haven’t kept up with it, but isn’t TikTok going away at the end of the year or start of next year in the US?
I don’t know where that whole TikTok ban stands, but it’s supposed to go away soon.
I personally am not on booktok and am not interested in tiktok in any way, but been recently watching quite a few discussion videos on booktok and it seems like that is a different world and that people try to assign grand ideas to these trends and short form videos. A lot of it comes down to expectations, doesn't it? If you want a deep dive analysis of a book and go to fluffy praise content you can only be disappointed. It takes a lot of guts to blame the creator for not making what you want. On the publishing side I am in no way sure about this, but I think what people forget is that a big selling book gives the publishing house money so they can invest in less safe books. Not sure if this still happens, but I think that was often an argument for celebrity books which guarantee sales and thus there's money to invest in new authors created.
I think I digressed.
I think we agree completely. Even your digression is similar to my digression. I honestly think there are some people who feel if they aren’t hating on something they won’t be taken seriously.
@@BookishTexan Yes, well said. Why do people enjoy hating so much? My inner critic constantly correcs myself when I say I hate something, as honestly I mostly dislike it. Hate is such a strong and exhausting emotion to choose for your go to feeling.
I hate to say it, but I think I have reached old lady status. TikTok was the first social media platform that I just didn’t try out. My high school bestie sends me political TikTok’s once in a while but that’s as much as I can handle.
@@alldbooks9165 I don’t have a TikTok account. I don’t think I could handle it either.
What is BookTok? Yes...I'm joking but I've never watched one, I have no idea what it is other than my ADHD daughter has seen a few. She doesn't read so it clearly has no impact on her. I remember back in the day there was this same argument about comic books, and I always recall my uncle who was a teacher thought comics were a perfectly legitimate entry into reading.
Exactly right. There will always be something new with books that people will react negatively to. BookTok is the latest, I loved those Illustrated Classics comics, though I only got to read a few.
People reading is not anti-intellectual. People watching videos (TikTok, UA-cam, ...) on reading is not anti-intellectual. People complaining that experts in their field do not know as much as amateurs IS anti-intellectualism.
.
Preach Brother Rogue!
I know not of which you speak
Me either, but bring an American I didn’t let that stop me.🤓
@@BookishTexan Ah, the old Alan Moore defence!
I have the old woman defense
Had to start using an iPad recently instead of my old MacBook and soon received an invitation to join TikTok which I foolishly accepted. Now sometimes it’s hard to get it off when I want to and they also want to know a lot of info about me which I don’t like either. I don’t think I’ve actually seen BookTok yet but it’ll probably pop up sooner or later. Anyway I saw KD’s video u talked about but even though I think he’s a brilliant guy I already know enough not to to take the opinions about books I see on the web that seriously or anything else for that matter.⚛️
I’ve avoided TikTok thankfully. In part because when I was teaching I didn’t want to be on any social media where I was likely to see things produced by my students.