Dragon Age Origins Fans Don't Understand Their Own Game
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- Опубліковано 27 вер 2024
- Within the Dragon Age community is a lot of fans of the series. But there are a suspect of these fans that pollute the discourse of the series. These being Dragon Age Origins fans. So, join me as I go over why these fans don't understand their own game and how they fundamental don't understand the series. I will also be discussing actually issues of the games.
Here is the video I am responding to: • Dragon Age Origins Fan...
What do you think about what I said?
I see plenty of dislikes but no answers to this comment. Makes you think.
Makes you think indeed.
When it comes to his button mashing comment must have played the games on console. Also specific to DA 2 on console I think there was someone from Bioware or EA marketing DA 2 and the the line was online the lines of "you push a button and something awesome happens". Both DAO and DA 2 were better experiences on PC than they were on the console.
@@MrDay53 I know that now due to other comments. My only issue then is why didn't he frame it correctly. He made it out to be that DA2 across the board is button mashing.
Yeah the marketing wasn't great. But it isn't particularly accurate marketing to DA2. Sure cool stuff does happen in DA2 but a lot more sad stuff happens then cool stuff.
@@Knight1029 Well I question if the guys video you were reacting to is actually a genuine fan. He might be, but due to the fact his video is just over the 10 minute mark, just enough for youtube ad revenue. I'd also feel he'd be able to go into more detail on his thoughts on why he prefers Origins and how he feels about the series as a whole. I think he is trying to target casual fans of the game who also can't explain why they like or dislike something in great detail and default to the "It's just better because it is", "It's themes and tone are dark", or the "Well it just looks better" just to name few. Just my take on his video anyway.
I love how mages fight in DA2 when people get close they just start hitting with the end of the staff 😂
I loved that to! Just whacking them with the end of the stick. Sad that DAI didn't continue that. It would have been amazing. Imagine a Arcane Warrior with that.
@@Knight1029 there was this special staff that looked like greatsword, it was aoe but onli melee i played arcane warrior with that , was fun
@@pokussnarioa2385 I remember that one. That was a really great sword to use. Arcane Warrior in general was a fun class to use.
Problem that if you starting hitting people with staff.... you are not any long in Mage class category but a Monk.... but ofc if you liked DA2 the most... we probably have different views on DnD as genre.
@@totomen666 What? My mage using a sword doesn't make them a warrior. In DnD a mage can hit someone with their staff. What?
If people say there is no dark themes in DA2, did people forget what happened to Leandra?
I cry every time I remember that. It was such a dark and terrible moment.
The entire THEME of Dragon Age 2 was that Hawke, as skills as that hero was, could only dam up the chaos, not stop it. It got into some DARK territory over that, and anyone who says otherwise forgets about Orsino.
People forget the entirety of act 3 as well. The desperate apostate using blood magic sacrificing innocents etc. DA2 was plenty dark
@ashleywalker8111 also if I remember correctly there were templar plots to give every mage the rite of tranquility with some "final solution" vibes.
@TheSteve285 yeah really they were giving mages lobotomies out of fear of the possibility they could be corrupted. Which is some really dark stuff tbh
I've played all 3 games, starting with Inquisition because I was a hopeless romantic teen when I first found it at a GameStop and bought it and because it was a fantasy game with romance where I could make my character look badass and cool. Then a few years later got a computer that was able to run DA:O and DA2, I loved both, The human noble origin was sad and dark as you're technically the last of your line, and it really made you feel like only you could save the world, DA2 was super fun and I loved how fast the combat was even with a weapon like a greatsword and the dlc was super fun too, and then revisiting Inquisition and importing all my stuff over to it was amazing seeing that Leliana and my warden still write to each other to make sure they're ok, it's wonderful, I seriously don't understand why DA:O purists see Veilguard as bad. The gameplay looks fun, and the minor interactions like maybe giving money to beggars like in the gameplay reveal seems so cool.
Going on a tiny tangent here, BG3 is also a super fun game but I don't think its a succesor to DA:O in any capacity BG3 is it's own story set in the world of D&D and as a ttrpg nerd the game was amazing and deserved every award, but not every fantasy game like dragon age needs to be that way, I love the way the combat looks and how fast you can be and all the special stuff you can do.
TL;DR the game looks fun and I seriously don't see anything really wrong with it. If anything it reminds me of that meme of the stick figures, where a group of them are playing a game while one is standing and complaining about XYZ, and at the end, the one standing is just yelling "STOP HAVING FUN!!"
My first Dragon Age game was Origins. I played it about 11 times as of now. I love the game. But in no way are the other games less. They all feel like Dragon Age were it matters. The through line for all the games are its compelling stories, wonderful characters and world. Veilguard seems to be still a line with that. It looks great!
I completely agree. BG3 is a good game but in no way is it a DAO successor. It approaches near everything differently. From the gameplay to the story. The only thing similar to it was the companions and even then it feels different. I just wish people understood that BG3 and Larian aren't Bioware 2.
The game does look great. And I feel you on how DAO fans talk about it. They seem to want people to not enjoy the game at all.
Well first its very jarring going from DA:I to mass effect with apparent light sabers. 2nd number of skills for the quick bar is 3 skills and no control of companions. 3 already immediate problems
That meme was born of a weak attempt to negate criticism. I remember Fallout 76 defenders spamming the hell out of it when people complained about 76.
"Characters have become less sexy." There it is! Knew it was coming as soon as he said 'modern audience'
I remember someone saying the term "modern audience" is just a dogwhistle and man that feels right.
Where's the lie though?
@@cristiancojocaru9821Because not over sexualised or unrealistically buxom doesn't equal ugly.
@@EmoBearRights No, ugly means ugly, there's plenty of ways to make a character ugly, and over-sexualization can be done to ugly characters too, just look at the fetish western game devs have for ugly female characters.
@@EmoBearRights Right, ugly is ugly, and you can over-sexualize ugly characters too, we're flooded with the fetish of a lot of western devs that involves ugly women.
Origins was set during a blight! The world goes to shit during a blight, no shit things would be dark.
Yeah right? Like it comes with the territory. Making the other games just as dark without the blight would be weird.
@@Knight1029 Yeah like, DA2 had the whole tensions between Mages and Templars, citywide corruption, etc. Inquisition had political intrigue and, you know, a giant space hole and an immortal mage with a god complex
@@chrisdiokno5600 Right! Each Dragon Age game was dark in their own ways. It's wild to say they aren't.
I play video games for the same reason I read books or watch movies. I love story telling. Dragon Age as a whole from Origins to Inquisiton is a fantastic story with amazing characters. That's why I play Dragon Age, and it is the reason I will be playing Veilguard. I have to know what happens. I dont care about anything else. Good gameplay and graphics are a bonus. The only way Dragon Age could ever disappoint me is if the creator's ruin the narrative of the story.
To me I view gameplay as something that supports the game's story and world. Nothing more. What's important is the story being good. And so far the Dragon Age games are pretty great.
i feel exactly the same! i really don't care for gameplay, as long as im able to be good enough to continue with the story, im ok. i dont need to be bad ass, i just need to know where the story is going.
I agree with you , there are so many times a game can have brood mothers before it gets old . I think dragon age veil guard looks awesome and I can’t wait to play. If the game plays well, has a good story that makes sense I don’t care about if the characters are sexy . Besides I don’t think the characters look bad . Varric is not that sexy and there are some people who want to romance him .
Yeah, you can only do it so many times before it feels repetitive. DAO did it for a reason and just doing it again it wouldn't work.
I hope the game turns out great. I think it looks good so far.
I remember when Mass Effect fans were entitled for not liking the Mass Effect 3 story and especially the ending.
Here we are twelve years later and now the Dragon Age fans don't understand the game they actually love.
I see gaslighting has not gone out of style at Bioware and its adherents.
I don't think Mass Effect fans were entitled for not liking ME3's story and ending. My only issue is the way they went about expressing their dislike..
I don't know man. It seems people think DAO was this dark game for no reason and just did stuff because it was dark. When that wasn't the case.
@AulisVaara "entitled", they paid for that game, they are absolutely entitled, as customers to criticize the product they bought. Bioware is not entitled to anybody's money on the other hand.
@@Knight1029 If there wasn't negative backlash and criticism about the ME3 ending, we wouldn't have had the Extended cut DLC and possibly wouldn't have even gotten Andromeda. Maybe trolls took it a little too far, but if you pay for a product you have a right to criticize it.
Also, you argue that DA2 is dark like origins, but now we just think Origins is dark for no reason? You're very inconsisent with your arguments.
@@loodeedoo560 why do you think my issue is with people disliking ME3's ending and not how they did it? I don't care if they like it or not. What I care about is if they are toxic or not. I would do the same if people were doing toxic positivity.
I didn't say that. In the video I said DAO is dark for a reason. But fans seems not to understand that.
Remember dao was set in the blight,within a huge war,and in the dwarven teiges,the darkest and most violent wars within lore with a natural disaster happening at the same time ofcorse its violent and gory none of the other games were within that setting so ofcorse they did no have that same level of visual violence.
Yeah, I agree. It was simply just a different time. To recreate that over and over again would be odd.
I understand the nostalgia I also adore dao as I like all 3 of them,I aswell played every single one multiple times that's why I'm so confused why they want every single game to be within the same setting when they story at that games period and what it's trying to convey ,don't need that level of violence.
Maybe the new one might have it ,I hear it is rolling the violence (when needed) towards origins level.
@@DavidSantos-ix1hu yeah. A big appeal of Dragon Age is that the games are in a setting and explore that setting. It is really great and makes the world feel big.
I heard that to. I hope it uses it violence when needed.
And every game is 10-30 years apart people act like "oh my gosh we need 40 blight dragons every game to show its dragon age" its just weird that DAI had less stuff come out from the rifts that DAO with the endless hordes devouring places unless they possessing people instead of appearing like Cole a wandering spirit that didn't get consumed/taken over
Plus, to some, some of the violence could be seen as senseless and just done for the sake of being "dark" like say The Broodmother. Like, you can have dark fantasy and not have it be "Casual Murder Monday and Random Rape Tuesday."
Trying to gauge the general feel of veilguard. What did you like, and what did you not like? I dont believe in perfection either, so there's always something to he imrpoved
Well I liked tge art style, graphics, dialogue and the general story. What I don't like to much is some of the character introductions like the veil jumper and I am not a big fan of the combat.
I do agree though that not everything is perfect.
I hope that answers your question. If I may ask what did you enjoy or dislike about the game so far?
@Knight1029 I'm mixed so far. I like the combat but I also played a ton of HS in my life. Not sure about some of the companions or art choice, but looks fun
@@JoJoAdventureBizzare seems like we have different thoughts on the game. But that's cool!
I hope you'll find some more stuff to like about the game.
I've divided when it comes to Veilguard, it feels off art style, but it looks like it potential might be a good game so I'm cautiously optimistic at this point. I don't want to judge it before I play it and to have an open mind.
@@Citizen_Nappa23 That is a good way to go about it. Play for yourself before judging.
I think a large part of what's happening is that "only Origins" players seem to misconstrue gameplay and story for being the same thing, and this is actually a pretty significant conversation in gaming in general. They enjoyed what they got out of Origins' technical combat mechanics, but once that was no longer present exactly as they remembered it in the series, they moved on. But what didn't change from game-to-game? The wonderful stories. For myself, and a lot of Dragon Age fans, I come back time after time simply for my love of the lore, the characters, the emotional moments that I treasure. I've read all the books, the comics, watched Dawn of the Seeker and Absolution, waited year after year for any crumb of news about Dreadwolf/Veilguard. I love Dragon Age not because it provides me with a specific type of gameplay, but because I love keeping up with the stories and lives of these characters. Frankly, they could put out a DA game that ran like hot diarrhea and I'd still play it simply because the world of Thedas is meaningful to me. I think what "Origins only" gamers misunderstand is that, as you explained, what they connected with was the style and gameplay only, but not necessarily or specifically the story or characters. As you said, the "darkness" of the stories told hasn't changed. One of the darkest revelations in Inquisition I'd say is the fact that the rite of tranquility, under which mages are frequently sexually abused, was proven to be a deliberate tool to turn mages into helpless, mindless slaves of the chantry and that it's entirely reversible. Or the fact that Solas essentially singlehandedly condemned the entire world to die in a morally dubious, desperate attempt to save it, sealing himself away, then waking in a world where everyone he had ever known had died, a la Aang from Avatar. Sure, those instances may not have a dark color scheme, but psychologically, they're deeply complicated moral moments. Dragon Age is never going to be Origins again, and it hasn't been Origins for 15 years. If an Origins only player wants more Origins, they can surely find that in other games more suited to their interest. The nostalgic ghost of what many imagine Origins was is simply no longer there, and perhaps never was. Origins itself garnered a great deal of controversy back in the day, namely that FOX news ran hit pieces about how bisexual characters (Zevran and Leliana) don't belong in gaming or that sex in a video game would corrupt the youth. The media circus has always surrounded DA, even in 2009. I can tell from your quips and anecdotes throughout the video that you know a lot about the series, and I want to say I agree wholeheartedly with everything you talked about.
This was soooo awesomely put! Listening to Origins fans complain every time a new DA game comes out is like watching a child sustain a tantrum for fifteen years. You don't hear this kind of bellyaching from, say, The Witcher fans; if you played through all three games, you'll find that CDPR also changed the gameplay with each new game. The Witcher and TW: Assassin of Kings are as drastically different as Origins is with Exodus. The thing is, by the time Inquisition came out, fans who have been with the franchise since Origins should have recognized the pattern: Bioware is reinventing Dragon Age with each new game. They should have expected that the same will happen with The Veilguard. Bioware does something new with each DA game, making it almost unrecognizable from the previous entry in terms of gameplay mechanics. Guess who else does that to game sequels? Yep, all game developers. So don't expect another Inquisition or another Exodus, and certainly not Origins. Whether or not this "reinvention" of gameplay mechanics is good is subjective to each player; I, for one, think that the changes in combat were disorienting at first when playing from Origins to Exodus to Inquisition, which made them feel like each belonged to different game genres. But the characters, companions, story and setting all felt very familiar and grounded on lore established by Origins, so there's still a strong continuity between games. And that continuity and consistency of the writing--of the story, the characters, and expanding lore--are what I expect to stay unchanged through each "reinvention" that Bioware does. I understand how this can be disappointing to many fans (in fact, I'm not happy that in this iteration they scrapped the tactical mode and ability to directly play as each of your companions during combat). But I remember having the same apprehension with Inquisition, but it turned out to be fun! At the end of the day, if you look back at all three previous games, you'll find that Bioware has always been honest about what they intend to do with each new DA game: they'll experiment with the gameplay to match what's currently popular in the market, within the limits of their game engine, but they won't let that get in the way of putting you, the player, at the heart of an awesome epic story surrounded by some of the most unforgettable characters in Thedas. At the end of the day, the story, the people, the world of Thedas, and your place in it are the reasons why the hype for Dreadwolf/Veilguard stayed alive for ten long years. It's why I'll pick up Veilguard and embrace these new changes and its new faces. Origins fans be damned, it's time to return home to Thedas!
Well thank! I have thought a lot about this subject and I am happy I was able to portray it well.
As for everything you I whole heartedly agree. You put it very well and coherent then my more random ramblings.
Dragon Age has always changed but it has kept its one core element alive throughout its years in its game and external media. It's lore, characters and story. And while it may not be the same on the surface it is the same in its core.
Not to mention they forgot how much time they played as well they remembered placements and their favorite party compositions along with "love interests" not that they are running from place to place along the tactics weren't different besides skills and weapon penalties
I feel like people also forget that you could 100% play Origins like an action game, and I would wager with how popular it was on consoles that was a large portion.
There are fundamental differences between DAO and DA2 in regard to the story. The story in 2 takes player's choice away almost completely, right down to single quests.
You can't save anyone, not important characters (to Hawke), like your mother, but also not smaller parts, almost all the templars and mages end up the same way, whether you help one side or the other, whether you convince one of them in Act 1 or 2 or not, their fate remains the same.
You can't stop anything from happening, Anders will always become a terrorist, the Knight-Commander will always evolve into a monster, the mages will always have many fall to Blood Magic...
TL;DR - There are many non-aesthetic arguments to be made about why Origins fans dislike the direction the franchise took, and although the guy you're responding to was limited in his scope of argument, I overall agree with his general sentiment.
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I'm sorry you haven't had discussions with Origins fans who don't put forth arguments aside from aesthetic ones. How 'bout these:
In DA2, coming off of Origins, I was immediately frustrated by having no multiple races/origin stories to pick, and a flattening out of skills that means you can't specialize in things like conversation, trap-making, etc. Next, I was miffed about the linearity of the level design in DA2 as opposed to the more open levels of Origins. Piggy-backing off of that, it aggravated me having no access to magic/abilities outside of combat, ESPECIALLY buffs. One of my favorite things in Origins was having freedom to use magic whenever/wherever, and putting buffs on characters/weapons that "stay on", even in cutscenes. It made the magic feel like a living part of the world, in a way that doesn't come across when stuff just gets activated when enemies spawn.
Speaking of which, I CANNOT STAND ENEMY SPAWN POINTS IN DA2! I can't stand them in most games anyway, but especially when you go from a game in which you can run over to a ridge to find a group of bears, then run over to a nearby tower, where some soldiers lie in ambush, then retreat to a cave in which there be spiders...to a game in which, at certain points along a pre-determined path, waves of enemies will fall from the sky, pop out of the ground, or just appear out of thin air, over and over again, it is quite maddening.
I could go on (don't get me started on how good "Tactics" was and how pissed I am they got rid of it), but you get the idea. There are legit, non-aesthetic reasons for disliking what Bioware did to the franchise as it progressed. As for your assertion that Origins was dark "for a reason", yes. I agree...So give the other games a reason. The story didn't HAVE to be what it was in the other two games, and I would argue, given the subject matter, all three games could be equally as dark; to say nothing of Veil Guard, where an even worse apocalypse than Origins is about to happen, yet everyone in both trailers seems way too casual about it.
All this being said...I don't hate the other two games at all. In fact, it surprises me when I hear fellow Origins fans talk about how Inquisition is even more of a departure, because, to me, Inquisition was more a return to form, correcting some of the mistakes that DA2 made. As for DA2 itself, though ultimately I ended up just hating the combat (it was so annoying to play that I ended up dropping the difficulty to Casual just so I could get through the tedious battles quickly), I absolutely love the characters. In fact, Merrill is my favorite romance, and has one of my favorite arcs, in the entire franchise! Despite disliking the (MANY!) limitations of the character, I did end up falling in love with my Hawke, just like my Warden. I don't even need to mention Varric. I just adore them all! (...except Anders)
As for what we see of Veil Guard, it disappoints me that it's now Mass Effect, fantasy-style. No longer do we freely switch between 4 characters, but rather have a "commander" and 2 squaddies who you can tell to do one or two things, as well as (presumably) make them go hither or thither. That said, it does look very pretty, and for what it is, the combat looks solid. I do have aesthetic complaints about the demons, but it remains to be seen how much better that's going to get as the game progresses.
My hopes are not high for Veil Guard, but I don't hate the franchise. The characters made me enjoy DA2, and overall, I loved my time in the Inquisition. It's just that, while others see the changes in the non-Origins games as streamlining, I see them as a removal of important components to the experience.
As I said in the video itself I know and understand the arguments on how the series as change in non-aesthetic ways. DA2 (while similar under the hood) is wildly different. Everything you said is true. And I would agree with you.
The biggest issue with the series is the inconsistency of the art style and gameplay. It sucks that the series changes every game.
As for the games darker tones; I think each game is dark in their own ways. DA2 has a cycle of violence that produced horrific outcomes. While DAI has political corruption. Its dark in its own ways.
I played a tactical CRPG. 2 and veilguard are not tactical CRPGs. I understand origins. The story sounds great but I don't want to play a hack and slash.
I'm sorry to be this pedantic, but apart from choosing in which order you do things in Origins (which is still a thing in DA2 btw), the level design is just as linear as in DA2.
It's not really Origins fans who are doing this. It's those of our fellow Gaming youtubers who depend on ragebait for the survival of their channels. I'm willing to admit that Veilguard trailer was goofy as hell but I personally think Veilguard will be fine and mfs are just being dramatic for the sake of views because unfortunately we live in a time when negativity gets clicks.
10:38 In Inquisition there's a journal you can read in the Hinterlands where some guy saw a Templar kill a mage (or maybe an Abomination) Then start to take off his armor, the iplication being well...
That's true as well. Without them stoking the fires it wouldn't have been as a big deal. A lot of them are just doing it to stoke rage. Not sure about S&S though.
Yeah... DAI has a lot of dark moments. Its crazy to hear people say that its like a clean story.
tbh I just want to enjoy my new DA game. all these extreme fans of DAO are very tiring
Same. I just want to enjoy the new game. But these DAO fans can be tiring.
I never really got the obsession with Origins' "tactical" (aka *rigid*) combat system. I didn't enjoy it when I played, but accepted it as an engine limitation and enjoyed my time with the story instead. Then everyone hated on Inquisition for being too MMORPG in its combat, meanwhile I'm playing it, running around and fighting much more freely than Origins ever let me. Oh, and Inquisition HAD A TACTICAL COMBAT MODE xD I didn't care for it much, but when I played on the highest difficulty with challenges (and using a warrior when I've always gone mage), it became downright essential to survive. Gave me a newfound appreciation.
I've enjoyed each game for different reasons, same as other franchises like Fallout (eg New Vegas for writing/story, Fallout 4 for gameplay/customization/base building). Don't know why some fans lock onto one aspect and say "IT'S DIFFERENT NOW, GAME IS GARBAGE". Each has positives and negatives, just find what you like about each and enjoy your time with them.
Side note, Desire demons appeared as succubi because sex is a pretty universal desire. But the example Spell&Shield uses in the Circle tower... was he just staring at her boobs and ignoring the conflict there being that she was making the Templar think he was at home with a loving wife and family? That she was fulfilling his (non-sexual) *desires*?
I guess its just different tastes. People like DAO's combat for their own reasons. Personally my favorite combat system is DA2's. I love how it looks and feels.
Each game is their own thing. Would be nice to have a consistent look and gameplay but that's fine. Each game does its own thing well. And that I think is fine enough.
During development desire demons were actually supposed to be more androgynies. Because they were symbols of anyone desires. But the artists game back and interpreted desire as boobs.
If you go to a Restaurant & Order a Steak you expect to get a steak, so if the Restaurant then serves you Chicken you're going to be mad, it doesn't matter if It's great chicken, you may even enjoy the chicken, but what you wanted was the steak, that's the whole reason you came to the restaurant.
Dragon Age has had Tactical Real time with pause RPG gameplay, That's what fans of the series (& BioWare's earlier games like Baldurs gate) like & that's what they want, add to this that Tactical Real time with pause RPG's are not that common anymore & fans can't just "play another game".
Most of the fans who didn't like Dragon Age's combat are more focused on story anyway so trying to appeal to them isn't going to work, they wouldn't like complex Action gameplay anyway, they just want the combat to be easy so they can focus on enjoying the story.
Instead what is going to happen by trying to make the game action oriented is that it's not going to be a good Tactical RPG or a good Action RPG so it will appeal to neither audience.
By trying to appeal to everyone BioWare will end up pleasing no one.
@@MannerdDesert7 I can agree with that to some extent. People expected DAO for a game called DA2.
Strange analogy Mannerd, since it'd be more accurate to say the restaurant offered both meals. One day you try steak and like it, so you come back and try the chicken, though you decide you liked the steak better.
Now you're trying the restaurant's fish, and you like it even less than the chicken.
That's fine, stick with your steak. Don't go over to my table and toss away my fish, thanks.
Whether people like it or not is up to them - maybe I'll like chicken most and order that going forward. But I won't toss away your steak because I didn't like it. I just won't order it myself.
All in all, you like Origins best, that's great, go play it and have fun. Maybe you'll hate Veilguard, maybe not. But you hating it doesn't mean everyone else has to.
@@Hollow_Phoenix that analogy only works if they're still making Real time with pause Tactical RPG's which they aren't.
In the analogy Dragon Age is the Steak & Mass Effect is the chicken, they used to sell both but now when you order steak they're giving you Chicken with some steak seasoning.
You might not care because you like chicken but when all the customers who like steak leave & the restaurant is closed down you won't get either.
I honestly just find the way people talk about this franchise so weird, when I think about Dragon Age I don't think about the combat style, I think about all the characters. The combat is always just a chore I have to get through (having started with Origins around 2010 to now in 2024). And honestly a lot of the "darker themes" were handled much better in DA2 and Inquisition than they ever were in Origins.
Plus the fact that if somebody really considered the combat style that much of a dealbreaker they should have moved on in 2011 when DA2 came out (as in actually move on, not comment every time somebody mentions dragon age how "everybody" only loves Origins)
Apologies for the rant, it's been a frustrating week :D
EDIT: One thing I will say is it seems like Veilguard is an attempt to bring a bit more consistency to the Bioware "look" by bringing it more in line with what Mass Effect 5 will be. It's probably about 13 years past time when they should have done it. But it is a good move to make
Same. When I think "Dragon Age" I don't think about the combat style. I think about the story, world and characters. To me the gameplay was just something to facilitate those elements.
I don't think DAO handled its dark themes poorly. But I do think every game is dark in it own way. Fitting to what it is trying to do.
I just don't understand why people who hate every game after DAO just doesn't move on. I can't tell them what to do but I feel it would be better for the mental health.
Its cool :D A lot of this video was also me just ranting. Sometimes we just need to do that.
That is actually an interesting point I didn't consider. This is an attempt to unify the combat and art styles of Bioware games. Creating a house style. Good point!
@@Knight1029 I could have probably phrased it better, it's not so much that I think Origins handled its dark moments poorly as I feel like it's the most blunt about certain issues in a way that can make it hard to recommend to somebody who is particularly sensitive to those topics. I do think there's generally purpose behind it that makes it not-gratuitous but it is definitely something I'm aware of.
I have actually been suggesting that some of the worst offending "Origins Fans (tm)" just move onto one of the many other franchises if they're most invested in it being vaguely isometric. This generally doesn't go down well, but when there are so many franchises where I enjoy one or two games but not the rest it just seems so obvious to me. (eg Assassin's Creed, Final Fantasy, Spyro etc)
I meant to go back and edit again, but when it got to the bit where the guy was talking about how "sensual" the sex scenes were in Origins I just laughed. Nothing sexier than having two people stare vaguely at each other in various poses while a woman wails in the background (especially when it uses the 'Leliana singing' voice actress, when I generally romance Morrigan/Zevran. Meaning she's....watching? I don't know, it's very weird)
@@IainDoc15 if that is what you meant than I agree. I do think DAO is still good in how it handles its dark moments but it is just blunt. Like so many times in the game it just says something terrible happen so suddenly. It can be hard to recommend to people who aren't comfortable with those topic.
I agree. Like if some of those "fans" hate the newer games so much then they should just go. It can help their mental health a lot. Like I feel a similar dislike towards the newe Assassin's Creed yet I don't play them because its not what I want.
Oh yeah dude. Even for the time I don't think it was that good. Like so much of the "sensual" scenes in DAO were just funny or awkward.
@@Knight1029 One of the things I occasionally do when the Origins fans frustrate me is to just look up the sales figures for Bioware games, which show Inquisition at #2 with literally double the sales figures of Origins. It's so weird how Bioware keeps marketing its games to the people who want to play them rather than the people who loudly insist they'll never play another Bioware game
@@IainDoc15 it's the funniest thing. I sometimes do that as well. And DAO fans get so mad when it's point out to them that DAI sold way more.
Origins is my favourite game in series, but with ages of gaming i have realise we have to be adaptible to the changes ...
Look How Greedfall 2 is getting torn apart for its Origin style combat which is too clingy and static.
It will be great game if it has origins type storytelling and good number of strong choices which branches stories, path of the quests or opens up entirely different quests
No yeah. I do hope there will be a place for those types of games though. Having more types of games is better not worse.
What's the issue with Greedfall 2? I thought it was going to have gameplay similar to Greedfall 1?
@@Knight1029 Origins style tactical combat, party based. But its been getting bad comments on YT. Also that patty combat doesnt look good ...may be thats on the devs part.
Their fanbase wants ARPG and DAO fans want CRPG. May be fanbade swap is needed haha
@@gamernextdoor23 Maybe! But I do think their will be something for most fans to enjoy. Even if some parts aren't great.
Hes not lying about DA2 being button mashy. It may not be early on, but in mid to late game the enemies that have more health are tedious as hell to defeat because of it being asymetrical, it makes combat frustrating and boring.
What? I have played DA2 on PC. I was informed DA2 on console was like that but I was speaking on DA2 PC. Which doesn't have button mashing combat.
@@Knight1029 Well, not everybody plays the PC version and it was very button mashy for console players so that doesn't mean he's lying. And console player opinions matter too.
@@loodeedoo560 and not everyone plays the console version. The PC players opinion matters to.
The point is that S&S saying DA2 has button mashing combat is just out of nowhere with no context. Could he have not explained what he meant?
With what little we have seen, i think much of the fan base are worried if the game has been changed to get a broader audience. They're worried if it's been Disney-fied (even though it's for a mature audience). The trailers made it feel very different than what people expected (with fun bloodless combat).
I understand if the game is evolving and changing, but I also think the Devs should build things incrementally. You're correct, they've been inconsistent.
I just don't get the concern. With the gameplay reveal it looks really good! As for the bloodless combat it will have blood in it. It was shown in some other screenshots enemies spewing out blood.
I do agree that the developers should have build the gameplay and art style incrementally. It would have provided a lot more consistency.
When you were talking about the fact that Origins presented the dark actions/situations to set up the world (example: Elven alienage sexual assault stuff) and that doing so again in newer games no longer serves a purpose: I have to say I disagree.
I understand where you are coming from, its already been established and what-not, but reinforcing that such situations are still common and on-going still serve the same purpose. What percentage of the people that will play Veilguard know (and remember) those specific examples from the games 10-15 years ago? Half? Less?
When you aren't reinforcing that worldbuilding, it comes off, at least to me, like you are trying to sweep it under the rug.
I will say I had a bit of a gaff at that moment. I do think it is important to keep those up. What I should have said was that some games just might not involve those elements. And that's fine.
I agree with that. Reinforcing the ideas is still really important to do.
Hey I'm one of those Origins purist. Its OK if you like this new Disney look they have for the game now.
Also we had the same arguments with the changes they made for Dragon age 2 and their fast paced combat (at the time), lack of RP options, and overall aesthetics and scope of the game.
Did you even watch the gameplay video or is all your info just from memes.
@@TheOtakuKat The game play argument falls a little flat. Yes its like DAI combat, but its far cry from DAO sudo-action combat with executions.
@@benjaminbishop3248 And DAO gamplay isn't some sacred cow as it itself is derivative of WoW.
Because your woke fanboy
@@smurfie8412 Ok Boomer
If you played DA2 on console, it was button masshy. you spammed the attack button. I went back and tried it on pc with mouse and keyboard, but console and controller, you did spam attack.
I didn't know that. I played it on PC where that wasn't the case. Thanks for telling me that. Though I don't think that changes my argument.
@@Knight1029it does change your argument. People are complaining about DA2 being button mashy as it 100% was button mashy on console. Veilguard looks like it is going to be hack n slash aka button mashy.
@@techlorknight338 not really. I could complain DAO was a dumbed down version of BG1 and 2 because look at the console. That clear isn't looking at the meat of it. Just because their is one terrible version of a game doesn't mean the other version is by default bad.
It had skill chaining and less attack animation you couldn't get animation locked with sustain skills you had less buttons and stamina
@@Knight1029 once again. You said that DA2 was definitively not button mashyand that people who say it was are wrong. You are 100% wrong in saying that as both Playstation and Xbox versions were in fact button mashy. More people played DA2 on consoles than they did on PC. Like seriously dude, are you really incapable of admitting that you are in fact wrong? Take the L
I never knew how insufferable origin fans were. They apparently haven't liked dragon age since origins but insist that they are dragon age fans.
My favourite is also origins but i don't think it's better than inquisition especially not with the tresspasser dlc.
Yeah, like I think your still a fan of Dragon Age if you like Origins but man that gets challenged by these fans. If you don't like anything from the newer games then I don't know if your a fan.
My favorite game is DA2 but I know DAI is well and often time better constructed. And as you said especially with trespasser.
Fantastic! Then I hate Dragon Age, but I like Dragon Age Origins.
@@kalicula7718 well at least your honest then.
@@Knight1029 I accept that the old Bioware is gone, and there will never be another masterpiece like Origins. I played the other games, and I did not like them. I replay Origins here and there, but I'm completely apathetic to the franchise as a whole.
@@kalicula7718 Nah. If that was true you wouldn't be here and we both know it. You're just miserable and dedicated to it. Go get better.
Maybe it's just me, but I find it ironic this guy is doing a video on how real DA fans are fans of Origins, whilst he's using Mass Effect music.
I didn't mention it but I was thinking its funny how he was using Mass Effect music when there is so much good Dragon Age music.
I started with DAI and kinda worked backwards. Inquisition has faster action combat and its what I prefer, and it has similarities to Mass Effect with its combo combat system. The combat of DA2 was incredibly sluggish even though its remarkably similar even with the combo system. Origins gave me more like I was playing DnD 3.5 but it wasnt as intuitive to pick up even though admittedly all 3 games have the same basic 4 person party doing complicated fantasy stuff.
The perspective on Thedas between games is what excited me. From the gritty spreading desolation causing social violence and turnoil in Origins, the consequences of failing ideologies of fanatic religions/philosophies in 2, and the ugly realities of trying to wrestle order from the fallout from DA2. And thats just social commentary, nevermind the existential horrors of demons and darkspawn.
The gameplay and art have evolved or changed, but the spririt remains. This is also coming from an avid RPG enjoyer outside of just Dragon Age.
Its funny you mention 3.5 DnD since Mark Darrah (former executive producer on Dragon Age) says that DAO is similar to 3.5e while DA2 is more DnD 4e.
My favorite combat system is DA2. I just love the energy and flow of combat. It is really fun.
I have always love the perspective shift between games. We get to know more about the world and it gets to feel more alive. Its what makes the series really good.
Exactly. The spirit remains in all the Dragon Age games.
As someone to whom DAO is the ultimate comfort game due to the companions (and my fave of the series) and who is still very attached to her canon Warden 15 yrs later, i don't claim these people.
By now i prefer a more faster combat and the one in Veilguard looks great to me. I am here for the story, companions and kissing some of them in a romance first and foremost anyway. It is really not that deep.
I just don get them at all. It makes no sense whatsoever to me. Like nothing they say makes sense.
Thank you Blooming. Yeah, I myself like both fast and slow paced combat, but going back to play DAO, maybe its cause I played it on 360 growing up, but the combat is very clunky for a real time with pause game
You seem to miss the moral complexity of Origins.
For starters you don't take into account context of the story, Fereldan is facing a Blight, the Grey Warden's are tasked with stopping it at all costs.
When it comes to The Nature of the Beast having an army of Werewolves is much better than Dalish Archers, so the moral quandary is what matters more, a single tribe of Dalish, or defeating the blight.
You also brush over the fact that the original Werewolves didn't just attack Zathrien, they killed his family, Zathrien is just doing the same thing with the Generational curse, add to the fact that elves are oppressed by humans everywhere & do the Werewolves really deserve to cured.
This is done even better in Paragon of he Kind where Using the golems will not only help the blight but also help the Dwarves restore their territory, yet doing so requires turning dwarves into them (which is implied will be done against their will eventually), again what is more important?
Even in the Urn of Sacred Ashes, there is no definitive proof that Andraste exists (if you bring Oghren it's hinted that the magic in the temple is caused by the Lyrium in the mountain & the Guardian is a Lyrium ghost), it's easy to just think of the Cultists as evil but it is their village & they have their own religious beliefs, they even offer to give you a pinch of the ashes so you aren't forced to kill them.
The only area I think this is done poorly is Broken Circle & by extension the Arl of Redcliffe.
Saving the Mages is just objectively better & unfortunately that breaks the moral quandary of Arl of Redcliffe as you don't have to make the hard choice of Killing Connor or Isolde anymore.
I didn't say there was no moral complexity to the game. Just that the choices aren't much of a dilemma.
Moral the right thing to do in The Nature of the Beast is to end the generational curse. The people who killed Zarhrien's family are long gone and people who haven't effect him are now cursed. To carry it on is not only moral bad to continue but is bad long term. Just keeping the werewolves around will create problems as DAO's epilogue slide states. And the Dalish are a better organized and effective force than the werewolves. We also see in the final battle that a maxed out Dalish army has more troops then a maxed out werewolf army. Their isn't a reason to side with the werewolves or just with Zathrien. It better long term and is just moral good to end it all.
Yeah what happened to Zathrien wasn't good but if the response is a generational curse that will effect other people who have done no wrong then that's just bad.
As I said in the video the Paragon of Her Kind is pretty good.
What? Regardless if Andraste existed it is dumb to side with the dragon cultists because they are a proven harm to travelers and pilgrims. And the dragon is a harm to the locals. It doesn't make sense to side with them unless you're just playing and evil guy.
Yeah Redcliff isn't great.
@@Knight1029 if you're just going to trivialise Nature of the beast to "curing the Curse is the morally right thing to do" then the moral ambiguity of Dragon Age is wasted on you.
Dragon Age is not a world with good & evil enforced by a divine being, in Thedas Bad people thrive & good people are punished.
Also Numbers don't mean anything, you only get a few golems & they are the strongest force the Warden can have, Werewolves are much more of a threat to the darkspawn than the Dalish.
@@MannerdDesert7 what did I say wrong? Please tell me.
If Thedas punishes the good then how can I play a good guy in DAO but not get punished.
That's why I also said that long term it is better to not have the werewolves around. They cause instability for the region. You know. Killing people and turning them.
I have come to the realization. People that are stuck on this insistence on how remarkable different and “dark” Origins was, don’t read. Like the fact that they don’t understand plot points, character arcs, character foils, the ACTUAL definition of moral dilemmas!!!! This just opened my eyes to the fact that they legit don’t know. About writing and story beats and how they serve the plot and make a game more intriguing 🤦🏾♀️. Like imagine thinking desire demon and only thinking about it from a sex perspective when the game keeps TELLING us that desire demons focus on the things that humans DESIRE. Whether it’s sex or power or ambition or success, or in the case of Connor, healing for his father. Like what is wrong with people?!!! 😭😭😭
Thank you for asking the valid question of how are the other games not dark as well??? I honestly think people who make this comment (inquisition was not dark, blah blah blah), don’t actually fully utilize the open world opportunities present with Inquisition and so do not see the absolutely fucked up shit you only discover if you actually explore the world. For example his comment about Connor and the abomination bent at Radcliffe not being replicated in other games is false. The Chateau d’Onterre quest in the Emerald Graves is EXACTLY that! And it is even more horrifying because at least Connor was stopped by the Warden. Nobody was able to stop the abomination in Chateau d’Onterre and every single inhabitant perished. No one survived. That shit is dark!!! Or seeing what happens with the Seekers with Cassandra’s mission. Or when you finally get the codex entries and realize with dawning horror that the Ocularums in Dragon Age Inquisition are made from the skulls of tranquils. Like shit gets dark. But they didn’t really explore what that game has to offer which is why they’re talking shit. Or maybe it’s like I said in one of your previous videos, they only associate “dark” with sexual assault and rape which is vile!!!
Also I’m confused as fuck at them saying that there are only two options: betray or kill Connor cuz I’m like yo. If you get the help of the mages, and convince Irving that because you saved the Circle, he owes you, he legit goes into the Fade and you get to save Connor. Like that IS an option. Isolde doesn’t die. Connor survives and gets taken to a Circle yes, but he survives. Like did they PLAY the game??? Did they explore all the possible options available to them??? People are so weird 😂.
He really went teeheheee. Sexism funny then. Now, not so funny 😔😔. Like what???? 🤣🤣🤣
Inquisition’s banter was so good!!! Whether when they’re walking, when they’re playing wicked grace. I particularly like the banter with the advisors when we’re at the war table. So much fun!!! Or gods!!! Leliana and Josephine’s banter with them being old friends. Exquisite!!!!
People that use mods to skip large swaths of the game and still claim to LOVE it makes ZERO sense to me. Like what???? Why would you willingly remove a large part of the world with a mod and still insist that the game retains what makes it what it is and you love it for it. Like come on!!!
Of course modern game and modern audience is “nobody I want to bone”. The way I just facepalmed. Hard 🤦🏾♀️. Also, the audacity to say that Veilguard characters are not sexy. Like WHAT??? And you know me Knight. I thirst over ALL of them!!! 😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭.
Who the hell calls them insane or immoral or wrong headed? Like my guy. Dude seems to be self projecting or just word vomiting the things he’s dealing with internally. Dude needs to take that up with his therapist. Dafuq? 🤣🤣
Excuse me what? Care less about complex stories?? Clearly this dude doesn’t actually interact with the fandom and how we explore the stories and the themes. Like we don’t just play these games. We think about them and what they are about and what they tell us about the human condition. Gods. What a fucking condescending prick. Still stuck on “no one here I want to bang. Poor me”. I thought he loved their “complex stories”. Don’t know what he loved more was the chance to bang Morrigan and gawk at her tits 😑. Which I love gawking at Morrigan’s tits. She’s stunning. But the difference is, I don’t pretend that I’m not looking at her.
*sigh. Thanks as always for reacting to this and giving me the chance to listen to this drivel without giving it a view. Thank you for your service 🫡
I think a lot of early video essays about games are a lot of "This game is good because its dark and good. Its also really cool!" Like that's fine in casual conversation or with friends because like... Who is gonna ask you to define in detail what makes the game good? But in this essays so much of it is vague gesturing. Like they never define their terms or establish why it is good. Its just vague gesturing. Like with the moral dilemmas bit. They don't say what is a moral dilemma or give an example in the game. Its just vague gesturing.
Oh yeah. Even as a kid who didn't read the codex entries I knew the Desire demon meant any desire and not just sex. But hey? That gets thrown out of the window because tits. Which like is awful because it means you can't have tits be shown in media without people inherently thinking "Ooo. Sex".
Yeah right? Like this goes back to a previous point on how they don't define their terms. If they did they would quickly realize that "dark fantasy" means more than just "tits, violence and rape". It means examining systems that harm everyone in many ways. Not just violence but subtle oppression. DAO should the elves in this situation. But most of these people ignore that in favor for "tits, violence and rape". It avoids some really wonderful storytelling in the game. Like you mentioned the Connor situation happens again but this time everyone dies. No one is left alive.
I assumed the guy does know about the other options but he just didn't say it. But you never know. He could just not know much about the game.
Yeah right? DAI's banter is legitimately the best banter in any video games. From the range of conversations and tones to the interactions and reactions with characters. Sera and Blackwall are a funny pair. Solas and Iron Bull's chess game is one of the best pieces of writing ever. It says so much about how Solas and Bull think and it means so much to prove to Bull that he isn't a savage. Its legitimately making me smile just thinking about it. Oh and the advisors are amazing. Leliana and Josephine playing match maker for Cullen is to good.
Average DAO fan: *Installs Skip Fade, Skip Deep Roads, Skip Brecilian Forest*
Also Average DAO fan: Best game ever!
Like sure I can see how people can like the game despite installing those mods but come on. There isn't anywhere near these kind of mods for DA2 or DAI. The most like this is the DAI skip timer mod. But that is just getting rid of the wait and nothing else.
'Modern audiences' is just a dog whistle for "wokeness". If they don't like how the companions look that's fine. But man they don't need to be like that.
Also I love how the companions look. Taash's stare is something else entirely.
I don't get it. Like? My man I don't think he is immoral or bad. I just think he doesn't understand Dragon Age or Bioware. And that's fine. If you don't like them then move on.
Yeah right? Like one of the charms is how politics makes the situations more complicated. The Fifth Blight would have been destroyed if Loghain didn't let his fear of Orlais cloud his judgement. Or how Kirkwall wouldn't have faced the qunari if Isabela just left the slaves. It makes the situations more complicated and thus allows us to explore some *themes*.
Its a pleasure! I am so happy you enjoyed it. I like doing these reactions a lot.
As someone who’s entry point was Origins, I can confidently say I enjoyed each and every installment
Nice. I feel the same.
Same
Mine was weirdly DA2 and watching my SO play Origins and ditto .
While he is wrong about DA2 being "Button Mashy" he is right that the combat has been dumbed down each game.
As someone who really like's DA2's combat, the combat was dumbed down & Inquisition was much worse.
In Dragon Age Origins we had
Attributes that can be manually Assigned & have some utility for every class (besides magic which has some but very little use for non mages)
Health
Health regeneration
Stamina & Mana
Stamina & Mana Regeneration
Fatigue
Damage
Spellpower
Attack
Critical Hit Chance
Critical Damage
Armor
Armor Penetration
Defence
Dodging
Missile deflection
Physical Resistance
Mental Resistance
Spell Resistance
Fire, Cold, Electricity, Nature & Spirit Damage & Resistances
Injuries
Cross Class Weapon Talents
Can choose 3 Specializations (2 without Awakening)
Skills
All Weapons can be used by all Classes (besides Staves)
All Armor types can be used by all classes
Rogues can Backstab
Crossbows are useable
In Dragon Age 2
Only Constitution & Willpower have utility for all classes
Fatigue has been removed
Spellpower is Removed
Armor Penetration is removed
Dodging & Missile deflection are removed & Defence gives you glancing blows instead of causing attacks to miss
Physical Resistance has been renamed to Fortitude
Mental Resistance has been removed
Spell Resistance has been replaced with Magic Resistance & can no longer cause spells to fail
Injuries just reduce maximum health rather than having unique effects & descriptions
Weapon Talents are tied to class
Can only Choose 2 Specializations
Skills are removed
Weapons & Armor types are now tied to Classes
Backstabbing is now just a talent
Crossbows besides Bianca have been removed
In Dragon Age Inquisition
Attributes can't bee manually assigned and are given by Armor & passive abilities
Health regeneration is removed outside a handful of abilities & items
Stamina & Mana do not regenerated over time & can only be gained by attacking enemies (outside a few abilities & items)
Attack is now the Damage stat
Armor Penetration has returned
Defence is now just damage resistance & is split into Melee, Ranged & Magic
Fortitude has been removed
Nature Damage & Resistance has been removed
Injuries have been removed
Can only choose 1 Specialization
Backstabbing has returned as flanking damage & effects all classes
Guard & Barrier have been added but healing has been limited to a few abilities & items
Only 8 abilities can be used in combat at once (including by companion AI)
Now it looks like in Veilguard
Attributes have been Removed
Removed Stamina & Mana
Specialization are now just part of the Ability tree
Guard & Barrier have been Removed
Only 3 Abilities can be used in combat at once
If you're wondering why Origins fans have had a problem with the gameplay in DA2 & DAI this is why.
Cool then. I don't disagree. My issue is that instead of using a good argument he used a bad one.
Also the issue with DA2 and DAI combat isn't that they are bad objectively. Its that they aren't DAO gameplay. On their own their fine.
@@Knight1029 the problem with DA2 & Inquisitions gameplay is that they’re still trying to be tactical RPGs but are removing the complexity & Tactical RPG’s need complexity.
Veilguard on the other hand seems like it’s just abandoned the Tactical gameplay all together (even though the devs are trying claim it hasn’t) which is a problem but not for the same reason as 2 or Inquisition.
@@MannerdDesert7 yeah. It's not great if you want a tactics game. I don't disagree with that. I just don't think their gameplay is bad.
As I said in the video I would prefer DAO gameplay to be the main gameplay style as it can create a consistency for the series.
@@Knight1029 It's sad because it's a failing strategy, they're going to lose the tactical combat audience while not gaining the Action audience & the remaining story audience is not going to be enough to make the game profitable.
Sadly I would not be surprised if EA closes BioWare down shortly after the release of Mass Effect, if not before.
@@MannerdDesert7 what? Action RPGs are the most popular RPGs. BG3 wasn't even in the top twenty of the most selling games in 2023. Hogwarts legacy sold over 22 million copies compared to BG3's 10 million. I think the better argument to use is that it sucks we couldn't see the tactics gameplay improve over time. It would have been cool to see.
I am a bit more cynical on the matter of Bioware's future. I think even if DAV sells well EA will shut them down for not selling as well as FIFA.
Probably you think ME Andromeda was an evolution in the franchise.
I think Andromeda was exploring new gameplay ideas. I am not a fan of open worlds as I think it doesn't really suit how Bioware tells its stories. Their best open worlds have been wide linear. As for the story I like it quite a bit. But I won't call it an evolution of the franchise because I don't think any of the games really evolved the franchise.
In terms of gameplay you can’t seriously think it wasn’t, they made just the mistake of not being able to use the abilities of squadmates as you wanted but gameplay wise literally everyone even those that hated the game said that it is one of the best third person shooter ever
@@ArchangeVie I can agree with that. The only real difference is the lack of pause and there being a jump pack.
@@ArchangeVie I absolutely agree that the character's mobility was much better and that made the combat much more dynamic. It was a big improvement in that regard. But this is an expected improvement considering the years between the games. The problem is that the gameplay has many more aspects, such as tactical, which was greatly downgraded by the lack of pause and control over your companions. That is a heavy trade-off. They improve one aspect but eliminated others.
Furthermore, I have a broader approach in terms of defining games, I don't just focus on the combat or general gameplay, there are also other important aspects such as storytelling, tone, the art design and the general design of the mechanics and many of these aspects were downgraded.
The most impactful for me was the character design, not only because they became more generic and less appealing, but because of the general art style that went from a more realistic approach to a more cartoonish one. That made the game less immersive to me.
The overall tone and mood also changed to a "softer" one, and the overall design was much more lackluster compared to the very innovative and inspiring the OG trilogy was at its time.
Im not saying it was a bad game, im saying it was in many aspects more a downgrade than a upgrade from the OGs.
I understand that taste is subjective and for some people these changes do not affect them because they do not have a defined criterion regarding the visual, or just they dont care, and thats fine.
But for many of us it takes away our immersion when a work loses visual and tone realism and it is understandable to complain when that happens.
We don't criticize how Mario looks or ask for it to be realistic, neither fortnite nor lol, or that CoD become a RPG, but we do ask that a franchise that we consume and support from the beggining maintains its essence and that is why many of us are upset.
The same applies to DA, it's not hate, is a reasonable criticism of a change of direction that only seems to be driven by very questionable, non-artistic marketing reasons and that changes the essence of the franchise. And that affects many of us.
I really envy those who don't care and can enjoy everything equally without caring about those changes.
@@alexhosen what essence in aesthetic are we talking about tho ? Bc none of the dragon age look alike in the slightest 😅, da2 looks nothing like dai that look nothing like dao, the characters look more artsy looking sure but they still looked realistic enough to see pores, facial expressions etc.. in a way that you can recognize every returning character, overall the outrage seems way out of proportion, when I saw the trailer for the first time I focused on the fact that Harding is a companion and a ROMANCE option this time, that gryphons are back that we get to finally see northern Thedas and yet here I see people complaining about something that shouldn’t matter if you actually care about the franchise imo, from what I hear from people who actually seen way more of the game AND actually read the comics and novels, notably tevinter nights which apparently is very dark, veilguard is just in the same vein, in any case we’ve literally seen nothing about the game except the prologue and introductions to characters so again I get being worried but the outrage is way WAY out of proportions it’s always been the story, characters and lore that actually matters in a BioWare game and so far I see nothing that suggests it will not be the case again and in terms of gameplay it’s funny to me that people act like it’s a step down when it takes inspiration from mass effect which is pretty much unanimously considered the best sci-fi video game saga of all time ? They said they took inspiration from mass effect 2 especially in terms of design for much of the game which is considered the best one by far and the one that actually won the 2010 goty ?? I’m literally so confused of the fact people are worried they got inspired by the gameplay of a goty winner and implemented for modern times but that’s just me I guess 😅 the tactical aspect of origins was fine but you’re all kidding yourself if you seriously think the vast majority of people didn’t just control their characters and abilities in all da games and didn’t bother with tactics at all which explains why they decided to go with the simplified but more engaging gameplay of me2, if the game is bad then so be it but I see no reason to bash in the work of people who fought against EA execs and won to actually make a dragon age that FANS want before any of you get your hands on it saying « there’s no soul in it » or « BioWare is dead » etc and lastly what’s the hate with Fortnite lmao I’m not a fan of the game but it is widely successful for a reason ??? Be serious guys 😭
The companion you forgot from dai is the elven antevan crow.
Ooooooh. You are right. Thanks for pointing that out.
Zevran was how we first found out about them
I dont understand why people compare origins to veilguard. If we must compare then compare inquisition to veilguard. Be realistic people!
Even then I think that is thinking DAO and DAV are nothing alike. Which is untrue. They have a lot of similarities that aren't based on art style or combat.
Is it crazy for me to say thank you for making this?
I'm so tired of the discourse that comes with every single game that comes out these days, it's like people are begging for something to be mad about.
I just wanna play games, it's not that deep.
And as far as "the core of the game" its an RPG. The core of the game is role play, not tactical combat.
Also like yeah okay DA2 didnt have seggs scenes it was rushed yada blah blah
DAI has one of the funniest seggs scenes in a game period.
3 words, Iron.Bull.Romance.
And since people are dying to have grape in a game, DA2 also has that politicians son, who was kidnapping and killing elves for being too beautiful. As an AFAB person, I didnt need the implications spelled out to understand what that was really about. Its serial killer seggsual frustration 101.
Oh thank you! I am glad you enjoyed the video. Also sorry for not responding sooner. I got so many comments from this video.
I honestly think they are just looking for stuff to be mad about. They fooled themselves into thing Bioware was trying to be Larian, in the abstract sense, and they hate Bioware for it. I can't think of any other reason. They keep tripping and failing to understand that Bioware is not making their type of RPG.
It is so obvious they just want to hate Bioware and the Dragon Age games because all their arguments don't make sense. They could just stick to real issues but instead they want to hate to hate. Each Dragon Age game has been dark in it own way.
I don't know why it is so hard for so many people to understand that DA:O fans don't see any DA in this title. I loved DA:O, DA2 was 80~% of DA:O in tone but was rushed, had many problems and a different combat, Inquisition went down to 50~% DA:O they dropped the blood splatter logo and the red color scheme for green (the importance of blood overall, as seen with blood magic focus), made it more high fantasy, the scope was of the project was bigger and a lot of the focus went on making hundreds of hours of grinding, poor side content and colectibles. And this DA has 20~ DA:O at best? But all that is subjective, it's what I feel as a DA:O fan.
However all you do on the video is say: ''That was made for a reason'' yes, and the reason was the story demanded it, if the story doesn't demand it now it's a shift in narrative and that's exactly the point. Seems like you haven't think this through. And aesthetic is important to the tone, if this game was made with Hello Kitty models you would not like it either as a DA game.
Not that I care about the desire demon but the demons in DA are based on cardinal sins and desire=lust.
Now the purely objective:
Party goes from 4 to 3
3 active abilities
Complete turn into action combat,no strategy whatsoever.
Companions are no longer directly controlable.
*Companions seem to be immortal to avoid the bad IA to be useless at higher difficulties (There's images of the game at higher levels and there's no health bars to be seen on companions)
Game completely developed for console (hence the forced wheel on pc, the 3 active abilities and the 3 ''attack comands'' for companions at the top of the wheel)
There's already bad writting on the game like ''I'm a mage, I'll go'', extremelly unorganic and doesn't make sense, we're going to physically push a log to drop a statue, being a mage is irrelevant.
More subjective:
The game looks like a generic mobile game/fornite (less on gameplay than in-engine trailer but still), many people that didn't know about the name change thought it was a mobile spin-off.
All male characters are ''conventially attractive'', all female characters are ''UNconventially attractive''. Even the people possitive about the game are dissappointed by the female cast and are praying for a hot romanceable counselor/ally. You can like Taash but she looks like a dude, nothing wrong if that's what you're into but you say you're straight, that's why this is ''subjective'' but I've seen NO ONE else say Taash looks attractive. Are you into Krem or masculine women? Again, nothing wrong with that but that's what I mean with ''UNconvecially attractive'' you're attracted to something outside the majority.
BioWare used to try to evolve/improve/tweak the crpg genre, like they did with BG1, KOTOR and DA:O, evolving the RTwP concept this game is just an action game. And if you like the original system is completley understandable that you may not like the fact that they're changing it, the new one being good is not going to change that. If you like chess because you take turns you're not forced to like ''Simultaneous chess''.
The cartoony graphics, go and look at the Darkspawn,the Ogre and the skelletons and tell me they don't look goofy and sºupid.
I think that's plenty for someone to not like this direction for a franchise born from DA:O.
''I love A Creed, I haven't played Black Flag but I'm sure I'd love it too'' You've been ignoring a game you're sure you'd love for 11 years? Maybe you don't love it that much man.
Because your woke fanboy
I've played origins through inquisition, hated da2 the most, liked dragon age origins the most. I like tactical combat, but I'm over crying about it not being there for dragon age. Just don't add in cheesy/cumbersome "combos" like dragon age 2 where my mage hit like a wet noodle unless the enemies were weakened with status effects by a rogue or warrior. I hated that gameplay fact more than anything. Difficulty was just more hp and more resistance. This game clearly seems to have more tactics when it comes to movement to avoid damage, like a single player MMO which has vastly more dynamic boss fights compared to a dragon age 2 or inquisition.
Tell me. Did you hate and despise ff16? Even though the combat is not tactical? Did you hate mass effect even though it lacked tactical combat? Dragon age has been less tactical for 2/3 and now 3/4 of its existence, you are the outlier. Take a clue. Want more tactical gameplay? Go play bg3 again, or any number of turn based RPGs.
If all you need is more blood to be sated, you are the cheapest of wh$%es. Dragon Age 2 had a lot of blood, and it was a garbage story, days of our lives in Kirkwall, everything was anti epic. That was the single biggest tonal departure going back GENERATIONS of bioware RPGs.
Origins had an epic story arc. Baldurs gate 2 had an epic story arc. KOTOR had an epic story arc. The scope was an abomination in DA2, the fact that you elevate that above what we've seen so far here story wise cuz not enuff blud...
wow, just wow, what a fantastically degraded, puss filled shriveled up opinion. I thank the gods above I don't believe in I'm not that impossible to please and warped to the point where so much easy happiness and joy and satisfaction is whisked away based on my own psychosis.
The only reason I see that DAO fans don't like it is because of the look and gameplay. Nothing to do with the story. And that is fine but man don't make it out to be more than it is. The Dragon Age games still have the core ideas such as story, world, and characters. That is still present throughout all the games.
You say that I didn't think about the fact that the story changed so it wasn't so dark misses what I was saying. If another story was set after DAO it was going to be less dark unless it also involved a blight. Any story about politics or war would be dark but not to the same degree as DAO. What this also misses is that DA2 and DAI were dark in their own ways that fit their stories. DA2 is very obvious about that and DAI (as I said in the video) is less overt but still has its dark elements. Like with the political climate preventing any progress against the threat ahead or the red lyrium consuming a person or the flooding of Crestwood. Each game was dark but in their own way that fit their story. Just because it wasn't overt as DAO doesn't mean it wasn't dark.
As I said in the video I am not necessarily a fan of the new combat. I will enjoy it a lot but I do think having a consistent gameplay style has many benefits. I also am not a fan of the 3 three party size limit.
What is wrong about the dialogue ''I'm a mage, I'll go'' like just because the characters don't know there won't be a difference in the end doesn't mean they shouldn't act like it. Also being a mage means Neve could understand or thwart any Fade nonsense in the way. Its a fine dialogue line. It feels like your reading to much into it.
The art style looks fine especially in the gameplay reveal.
What? What are you saying here? My guy they all are conventionally attractive. How are they not? Do assume that masculinity is make something unconventionally attractive or that the woman being masculine makes them unconventionally attractive? I don't get what your saying.
Yeah, I agree they should have expanded the RTwP concept.
I don't know man I don't want to play a game in a franchise I don't really like. What's the issue with my Black Flag comment?
@@smurfie8412 What of what I said makes you think I'm a ''woke fanboy''? 🤣
@@ubuu7 You didn't even read what I said, or you're too dºmb to understand it, congratulations.
Man, DA2 was the shit, best combat period. Assasinate/Twin Fang on the rogue feels so satisfying, stacking haste on warrior makes him become a hack & slash machine and omg don't even get me started on the Blood Mage, the most badass animations and the strongest aoe nukes, what more is there to want? They semi-confirmed blood magic not to be one of the specializations in DA:V but it sounded like they didn't want to spoil us. Still got some hope left.
My favorite was always the force mage. I loved just throwing around people or crushing them with gravity. DA2 has such wonderful animation and a combat flow.
I have hope to. DAV is shaping up nicely.
52:00: "injected with Red lyrium and become Red lyrium nodes"
While I respect contrasting opinions as it creates a healthier overall image of the fanbase, they made the lyrium golems look like MMO spawns. It knocked any form of dark tone from the aesthetics. It didn't help the gameplay mechanics reinforced MMO style checklists. Aesthetics mean a lot when conveying the overall tone and storytelling, which I think you would agree on given your statements about intention with DA:O.
Man I don't see that at all. How can the golem look bad? It looks amazing. It sells this idea of unrestrained growth and consuming its host. All you see that remains of the human side is their helmet and tattered clothes. It looks great!
As an "Origins fan" I appreciate your counter arguments. I didn't know there were people who modded out The Fade and the Deep Roads (cracks me up). Alot of what you said made me think, yeah I'm not in the same boat as the dude you were arguing against. I never had an issue with DA2 or Inquisition writing/story. It was definitely inconsistency in gameplay that bothered me the most, and I certainly prefer Origins combat style.
That being said, I've been outspoken about my dislike for VG and its marketing sucks, just like older heads thought DA:O marketing sucked. It's just come full circle. I'm no longer in the 18-25 age bracket so yeah they're not marketing to me fs.
End of the day I'm just bummed that after watching the gameplay, like you and AC, I realize this game is just not for me. Totally understand. Good video
Well thank you for understanding. I will say it does suck having a franchise you love do things your don't like. It genuinely does suck. For me though I think Dragon Age is still the same in many ways. Would I have preferred if the games had a consistent art style and gameplay? Sure, I would have loved that. But it doesn't. As long as the core story, world and characters are the same I will be fine.
It seems to me you disregarded the tactics menu in origins. It was tactics menu diving and micro managing and not just pressing X.
Maybe that's not your style but the original gameplay was tactical and they got rid of it for some reason and the original fans hated that they did that.
It's as if you would give the main protagonist in Silent Hill 2 a bazooka. Fans of the OG Silent Hill would hate it too 😆
Not hating your opinion though but that's a point i don't agree with.
The thing is DAO's tactics weren't needed in normal difficulty. Which most people play. That means a lot of the combat is just right click to attach and right click to use abilities. Sure it is more in depth but that only comes out in higher difficulties.
Personally I don't care what gameplay style Dragon Age goes with. What I care about is that the gameplay is somewhat reflective of how the world works. Which all the gameplay styles do to some extent. If the rest of the series had DAO combat I would not care. I would only care as so far as it made the series more consistent.
i have a feeling they didn't recruit any of the queer coded characters (probaly killed them too) if they are saying orgins didn't have many companions
Maybe. Its wild to say that since it has the most companions tied with DAI.
The one thing I do have to comment on is the whole 'people who like what they have seen for Veilguard is those who got onboarded from Inquisition.'
And I can't say how universally true this is...but its not true for me. So first BioWare experience was Mass Effect, then ME 3 the ending really dissapointing to me so I was weary about Inquisition. But really liked what I saw about the gameplay so was planning on giving it a shot...so what did I do? Went into a game stop and bought both Origins and DA 2. And its funny because I heard so many bad things about 2 so I was really hesitant to pick it up with Origins at the same time. And while I did like Origins well enough bit of a slog, so its possible I wouldn't have picked up 2 if I didn't but it at the same time. So I played 2 because I already got it and I liked it more. Then I got Inquisition and I liked it the best. But the point is that Origins was my onboarding, my first experience. I didn't like a lot about the game but I still have a very fond place in my heart because future PTs got me to appreciate the story more and the companions are still pretty top notch. Still pretty much the same game series in terms of tone.
Yeah right. I think its weird to say that a fan of DAO won't like DAV. Its trying to create a division where there is none.
My first game was DAO and I played it the most out of any Dragon Age game. I like it a lot. But I also look forward to DAV.
I agree. I think the series still has pretty great stories, characters, and world building.
Also I am glad you got into the series despite ME3's poor ending.
I'm not looking forward to Vailguard but its based on the way its marketed. I do not feel that the series is getting happy go lucky. All three games so far have been brutally dark. From DAO's Dwarf Commoner origin having you help pimp your older sister out, DA2 having you choose between saving Isabella from the Qunari or condemning the city, or DAI having to let Bull betray his men to save a temporary alliance. These are dark choices.
@@dirkbsilver9260 I can see what you mean. Though I think Veilguard is in a tough position. What can they show without spoiling to much? Because a lot of those dark elements in the prior games exist in very spoiler-y points in the story. But I do hope that Veilguard has its own dark choices.
@@Knight1029 if they focused less on telling everyone how every character is pansexual would help. That and giving us less of the Burtonesque darkspawn, they may get more positive feedback. Show us character creation, glimpses of lore between it and DAI, and tease us with trailers that don't remind us of Overwatch. I remember how they got the PC crowd hyped for DAO. It was a demo, but not of the gameplay. It was a character creator you could actually import the characters you made into the game. You got this character you wanted to see in action, and when you could do the import...
It was a pure bit of joy to see and feel. No spoilers in it either. All we get now is a dread the combat is going to be Andromeda in Thedas with characters willing to jump in bed with everyone.
@@dirkbsilver9260 I get you. I do think it is hard for them to reveal stuff without spoiling to much. But it doesn't mean they shouldn't do something more.
As for the pamsexual stuff; I don't mind it much. It does suck the companions lose a bit of distinctiveness by making them all pansexual. But it's fine.
As for the darkspawn I think they look cool, beside the Ogre.
My opinion on the gameplay changes is that it's fine. I ultimately don't mind the gameplay but I do think they should have been consistent with the series gameplay and kept DAO's style.
I'm a DAO and DAI fan. There. I said it.
Dragon Age 2 i honestly don't really remember much from and that's not because i hold malice for that game. It just didn't give me the same wow factor as the other two games.
P.S Varric is the fucking goat
I respect that. I like enjoying the games I played instead of hating them.
i agree with all the points, DA 2 is my favorite game because of the builds, it has to most variety of builds right from the start, DA Inc was buggy, i played rogue Artificer that knocks enemies down, but whent they were knocked down i cant attack(if they were on any kind of elevation) them with my daggers, was supper anoing. Then i played it at harders dificulty with chalanges with reawer, had blast was the best warrior in series. Im looking forward to veilgard hope its good.
the thing that dragon age origins made best is the character origins , it was great
Yeah, I loved the builds in DA2 as well. Force mage was so fun to be. DAI has this weird layer of jank to it.
And I do agree that the character origins in DAO were great as well. My character really felt like they belonged in the world.
My favorite game in the series dragon age 2 i think the game is phenomenal even tho the areas are on the weaker side cuz of being repetitive but i completely agree with everything u said it just seems like origin fans cant be satisfied unless it's exactly like origins. But i will say im not as into the character designs as i was in previous games but its not tht big of a deal to me
DA2 is also my favorite game. I just love it so much. Yeah the reused areas aren't great but it does everything else so perfect.
DAO fans don't seem to be happy with any it seems.
@@Knight1029 origins fans seem to not understand either that they are partly responsible for the series changing so much cuz of them micro analysing and over criticism of the games especially Da2 which there was really not a huge difference between it and origins outside of just the map
@@krisskross280 oh yeah. One of the big reasons DAI had so many open worlds was because people lambasted DA2 for having reused assets. And also failing to understand that DA2 is basically DAO under the hood. It's just faster.
The darkspawn look like clownspawn. The demons are changed to collected trash spirits now. I hope a mod fixes them but it's not game breaking for me and just a cosmetic issue as long as the story writing is great.
The silly disney animated corpses aren't as important and will make good memes. They should have them made out of cheese.
Man I don't see that at all. The only goofy one is the orge in DAV but the rest are fine.
Man a reasonable and balanced take? In this economy? Instant sub
Oh thank you! I try to be reasonable with my takes.
Love the "modern" dogwhistle reactionaries always use.
Ah shit dude. Your right! Literally just shifting from "diversity" to "modern" oh nooooooooo
I can't talk for anyone but myself, but I can tell you why I think Origins is supreme in terms of being a "dark fantasy" game. The keyword being "dark".
The other games lack horror. The cornerstone of Origins/Awakening and any good dark fantasy.
Where is the horror in the other games? The "darkest" from the other two is arguably DA2, however the element of horror is completely ruined by the cartoonish presentation, the re-used/re-designed creature assets and the many times outright inane dialogue. Not to mention the "sarcastic" approach would just turn anything horrifying into dark comedy. You can crack a joke when your zombified mother is dying in your arms? Please. Who would do that? How can you take that seriously? In order to create horror and dread, you need to be able to take a terrifying situation seriously, even though you know it's fiction.
There is a reason why you don't have the option to crack jokes when you talk to Hespith in Origins or when you wake up after the betrayal at Ostagar. It simply has no place in many situations and it would ruin the atmosphere that the game tries to create. DA2's silly dialogue wheel system however forces them to put an option there. It simply makes anyone take the game less seriously, therefore diminishing the impact of anything horrifying we witness in it. So basically the game is "dark", but we barely feel it.
In Inquisition the most horrifying thing we can witness is the Despair Demon's face. That's pretty much it. The rest is suspenseful at best. Technically it is actually hard to even call it "dark fantasy", when you put it next to other titles like Dungeon Siege 2 which is arguably more dark(has more blood, more gore, and a darker story), yet no one is calling it "dark fantasy", just simply fantasy.
Origins is the only game in the franchise that has a coherent presentation. The writing, the art direction, the music - they all match to achieve the desired look which in my opinion is the peak of "dark fantasy".
While I do like DAO for what it does with its own idea of dark fantasy I don't think that means Dragon Age can't engage in other forms of dark fantasy.
Additionally, I find saying that purple Hawke in the All that Remains ruins the tone. Its clear that a purple Hawke is distraught and using humor as a shield. That is how the dialogue comes off to me. Not this weird implication of "Gosh darning mom! Your not breathing silly." Its far from that. Its again just purple Hawke using humor to deflate the situation buts its clear to hear that it hurts them.
But back to the main point; sure I would like to see more horror elements in Dragon Age but I don't think what Dragon Age is doing isn't dark fantasy. Its just a different kind.
Also I don't think the other games are bad or lesser than DAO. They are different and they accomplish what they set out well.
Orzammar is one of my favorite places in DA:O. Choosing the kind is an awesome moral dilemma. Bhelen is not a nice person at all, but a good king, while Harrowmont is a nice, good person, but an awful king. You tend to like Harrowmont and dislike Bhelen, but which choice is best for Orzammar? To me, the choice is obvious, but still, the first time I automatically chose Harrowmont. ...sorry, Orzammar.
All the games were dark in different ways. What I dislike with each sequel is the gameplay changes. DA2 was fine as long as I played as a healer. DA:I... I couldn't stand the gameplay. Not sure why, but it felt like playing an MMO. Felt like I might as well play my MMO of choice instead. Still haven't gone back. :( I want to like the game, but....
From what we've seen of Veilguard it definitely isn't a game for me. If I want to play a Action RPG, I might as well play my Diablo game of choice instead. They do the action part better. Dragon Age used to do the RPG part better, but alas, to me their skill has gotten worse and worse. Personally, I think we will never see a game like DA:O from BioWare ever again. Just like the Mass Effect team has gotten worse and worse with time. I have simply lost faith in BioWare. I hate to say that. But I do have no faith in them at all. Used to love them, but...
Might still eventually buy Veilguard, just to see it for myself. Might do as I did for DA:I and buy it more than a year after it has been released. Also, after it has been fixed. Open world games tend to be patched quite a few times before it is truly finished. Do not like how DA has developed into that type of games. But that's more of a general complaint, not only aimed at BioWare, but the whole gaming culture. We need more than open world games, ok?
The video you watched is awful, by the way. Bad arguments all over the place. The arguments about darkness were the worst.
Edit: I'm like you in a way. If I don't like something, I simply stop playing it. Might say something about why I did decide leaving, but that's all. For example, I have decided not to buy any more Diablo games because of their decision to make them into "live service" since D3. I have D3, and that's a decision I will regret one day when they decide to shut down the servers. Love the game, but... Do not want to feel like that any more, so that was the last Diablo game for me.
Yeah, Orzammar is my favorite location to! I loved just how awesome it looks and the music was wonderful. The quests in it was just the best.
And I can concede that the gameplay change did negatively impact the franchise. The lack of consistency means the games can't built on the RtwP tactical combat. And it makes the identity of the franchise feel less obvious.
There isn't much more to say on that. The only thing I can say is that I think the newer games are still fine. I like them all and their stories.
I have faith that DAV will still be a great game.
@@Knight1029
I'm glad you still have faith in BioWare. Since the hullabaloo with "BioWare magic" that seems to be all too common in BioWare, I have lost mine. Personally, I think there won't be a great game. Might be OK, or average, but not great. They have lost way too many good writers for that. This is also their first time completely without Gaider. Wonder how that will turn out. Could go either way.
@@Elora445 I guess we will have to wait and see then. I do have faith though. The people at Bioware seem to know what they are doing.
@@Knight1029
Have you watched what happened to Mass Effect: Andromeda and Anthem? I'm really not so sure that BioWare know what they are doing. Not anymore, at least. And no, one cannot lay all blame at EA's feet.
@@Elora445 I did like Andromeda even with its issues. And with Anthem it's clear the issue isn't how good the developers are but more the external circumstances that surround them.
I agree with most of what you're saying but the only thing I disagree with is that I honestly think that Origins often did "dark and gritty things" for no reason other than fan service - particularly when it comes to sexual assault. Yes, those plot points may be dual purpose, but there are other ways you can tell the same story. It gives me such ick when dudebros are obsessed with the city elf origin, because it feels to me like they just want to live the fantasy of playing hero to helpless women. Yes, that origin did a great job setting the stakes and the place of elves in the setting, but it also felt over the top to me. I know elves in the alienage are treated horribly, but you're telling me some human noble can just walk in, grab these girls in front of everyone, go off with them, rape them, murder them, and literally no one even pretends to care? It would have made more sense for there to be performative consequences, but because that guy is the son of the arl he gets away with it.
The sequels make more sense in how the humans treat the elves, it's less overt and more sinister. For example the save Clan Lavellan quest in DAI shows that the duke of Wycome was subtly trying to kill off the elves by poisoning their water supply while pretending like he was protecting them, or Celene killing all the elves in Halamshiral as a political response, or in the Masked Empire when a young elf throws a rock at a passing carriage and an older elf steps lies and says he did it, because he knew that the punishment would be death. In these scenarios, the abuse is more realistic because it's less on the nose. It's either done covertly, or "in response" to the elves doing something which allows the oppressors to twist the blame and throw it back on the victims. Frankly, the elf origin felt gratuitous and over-the-top, and like it was using sexual assault not just because it was absolutely necessary, but because they wanted to give players the chance to "be the hero." It also rubbed me the wrong way because, while rape is something that is real and happens, I don't appreciate it being used simply as a plot point that is quickly brushed past. If you're going to commit to sexual assault in a story, I think it needs to be treated sensitively and with care. The later games don't include this kind of content as much because it's NOT NECESSARY. It never was necessary. It's an extremely triggering and sensitive content that Origins frankly didn't even treat carefully enough imo. Sorry to the dudebros with their weirdo fantasies, but women play these games too and I think most of us appreciate being able to play through a game without constantly have "dark" themes like sexual assault thrown in our faces over and over. The fact that later games have moved past this is a GOOD thing, not a bad thing, and imo it was a questionable choice in Origins to begin with.
Also, the desire demon designs is stupid because that carnal desire is 1) only one type of desire and 2) only applies to people who find that kind of thing attractive and desirable. I for one would not be tempted by a desire demon like that 😂 I would just raise an eyebrow at her and move on. This is just another symptom of these guys thinking that the entire world revolves around them, their wants, and they don't even consider that others may have different perspectives and experiences from them that are just as valid as their own.
My opinion is that I don't mind if sexual assault exists as long as it is done well. I think DAO has done that well but I will concede there are a lot of times where it doesn't make sense for the story or doesn't make sense with the world.
The meta text we get about the world's gender politics is that men and woman are treated fairly equally. Yet we see none of that appear in game. All we get is sexual assault against woman. If anything men should be the ones getting sexually assaulted because a) that makes sense with how the gender balance is and b) only woman can hold positions in the Chantry, the largest religion in the world. Yet still somehow woman are oppressed. Its dumb.
And there examples where woman being sexually assaulted makes no sense.
While I think DAO does a good enough job with its dark elements I do agree that the approach that DA2 and DAI take are far better. It feels more real and it feels more insidious. The examples you do instill angry in me. Its not just that a bad thing is happening its the way its being accomplished.
Sorry, if I made it out to be that I just want sexual assault for no reason. Wasn't my intend.
@@Knight1029 no need to apologize! Sorry if it sounded like I was mad at you, I was mostly just frustrated at those guys who are like “I like DAO because it’s DARK and has SEXUAL THEMES” but we all know what that really means. And I do agree DAO did have reasons for what it included, and when players engage with the game as an actually mature adult I think it has the intended effect. But people are weird and completely miss it… all that said I still think they could’ve written around those choices or written them more carefully. Anyway, I’ve been listening to your response videos while at work and appreciate them! So many of these DA hate videos make no sense and annoy me, so it’s fun to hear you respond to them.
@@lindslaurd oh I get you. Like the issue isn't the dark elements itself its more on how people are interpreting them. So, many people interpret the dark elements in a very simplified and bare bones manner. Which can make talking to them weird. Its like we are talking about a completely different games.
Thank you for listen to my videos! I appreciate anyone who takes the time to listen to them.
I wanted to make these videos because I also just hate how they misunderstand the games and how they impact the discourse. I am glad you enjoyed those videos!
People like this just want it to be edgy for the sake of being edgy, which is such a dull way to tell stories, like dao was dark becuse of the story it was telling, the other games have also been dark in their own ways that make sense to the stories they're telling. Some of what these people like dao for is just a product of the time it was made in and no game will probably be like that again, and that's okay, time passes you move on and find something new you like. Like for example, I love the yakuza series, but I haven't liked the way the games have been going since 6, so I stopped playing the new ones, but I don't complain about the series and I get why people still like it, it's just not for me anymore, I wish some dao fans would understand that sentiment.
also I don't know how anyone can look at the companion cast and not say they are all objectively attractive even if you're not personally attracted to them?? I love all their designs, they're all very unique and eye catching (in looove with Neve's outfit).
And I feel like most people that are actually big fans of the lore will still play any da game regardless of the combat just to see what happens next in the world.
That's true. I don't get how they don't see the games as doing something more with the dark fantasy then just being dark. There is a reason something is the way it is. I do agree that DAO is of its time. I do enjoy that charm though.
For me it was Assassin's Creed. I hated how they just stopped the modern plot line. And now they changed the gameplay so much. Even with Mirage it just isn't the same.
I am baffled. I honestly think they are being disingenuous about saying the companions aren't attractive. I think they really want to say something about the woke mob.
Story and lore fans rarely care about combat. I myself am one and I don't really care.
It's telling that no one watches your videos Jackdawing about how fantastic DA4 is, but they have watched this one. You'd be better off trying to figure out why so few people are genuinely excited (and not just DAO fans). I also happen to like DA2, despite it's flaws, and I agree Spell & Shield is wrong in thinking the mechanics are part of the issue. That said, the tone is clearly off (even if it is a progression from DAI) while the companion aesthetics from Bioware have been declining forever--DA4 is simply the bottom of the barrel (there's a reason why BG3 designed the companions the way they did).
I can get it. But I do think a lot of people watched this because of the amount of complaining on DAV. They might want to see someone speak about it.
The tone of DAO isn't exactly their but the darkness is still there. Just in a different form.
I just don't see how the DAV companions look bad. They look great! I also don't see the point of bringing up the BG3 companions.
@@Knight1029 With tone you'd have to go into what *you* mean for me to agree or disagree. There's no question the *trailer* was out of touch (with the goofy superhero introductions), but the actual game is a different discussion.
Separate what *you* (or I) think aesthetically from the playerbase, since our personal enjoyment isn't the issue (this is about the broad reception). If you seriously want to tackle the issue there are plenty of ways of assessing what has or hasn't worked. If you want ideas for how to do that, I'm happy to help.
I'll take you at your word that you don't understand the BG3 comparison. Let me explain: BG3 is another fantasy RPG that owes a lot of similarities to DA. It's massively popular and the aesthetics of the companions were well received.
@@arttuluttinen what i mean by the tone is that the games still have a air of things being bleak or dark. Not as overt as DAO but its still their. DAI shows powerful figures unwilling to do what is right and the effects of Coryphaeus on people.
As for the trailer I didn't take its tone that seriously. All the Dragon Age games had similar trailers that didn't portray the actually game. Sure DAO, DA2 and DAI had cool trailers but that wasn't what you did often in those games. Sure its light hearted but every trailer for Dragon Age was deceptive. I am not saying that's good but that is why I wasn't bothered by it.
Sure, if you have any ideas you can share them.
Okay, the thing is that each game has a different aesthetics and also that I don't think the companions look bad. They look good!
@@Knight1029 I think it's clear we're talking about different things. Simply having villains or bad things happening does not equate to a dark tone (both occur in Toy Story, after all). I don't want to get caught up in semantics, but I'm not sure you understand what people mean when they say 'dark tone'--you are applying what you think it means in response, rather than looking at what *they* think it means. That's how it comes across, at least.
There's a difference between expressing a personal opinion and making an argument. Subjective opinions are equally valid if that's the only criteria, so we're either at an impasse or you have to go beyond 'I like' statements.
No one is arguing aesthetics shouldn't evolve with each game (I'm not, nor is the video you are responding too). There's a difference between iterating on what's come before and doing something new that's out of step with the past (an example of this would be Rings of Power, which ignores both the books and the films). My argument is that DA4 is the latter category and for you to simply say otherwise doesn't make it so--you have to provide evidence to back up the statement (assuming the point of your video is to convince people otherwise).
Yes you did say you thought the companions look good (I was clear on that point). As I said above, if this is just a matter of personal preference, I'm happy for you, but it's not the basis for a discussion. Subjective opinion can't be debated, it just *is*. This is why I prefer to look at what's substantiated--that removes issues from the personal and shifts them to facts (looking at what is or isn't successful). For people who love what they see in DA4, it needs to be successful to get more of it, so there should be an interest in why it's not being well-received.
@@arttuluttinen okay then what do you mean by dark tone?
Sure I agree with that. All I have done is say that the arguments people have been using or what they have been saying seems to imply the newer games are bad objectively. If your not doing that then I apologize for assuming.
What? I don't think I said each game should have a different art style or that it should evolve. What I was saying and meaning was each game has a different look and that's fine. Is that what I want? No, but it's okay. What I do want is a consistent style.
Sure I am not forcing you to like the new companions. I am just frustrated with seeing people saying they aren't attractive to anyone. Which is untrue.
I find this debate fascinating because-prepare yourself for an unpopular opinion-I did not particularly enjoy Origins. The world, the characters and the lore are great, but I was struggling with the combat and the story was not really coming together for me so to this day I have never finished it. I loved Inquisition though and I’m excited for Veilguard because it does seem like an evolution of what Inquisition was. So unfortunately I think that my very existence as a Dragon Age fan supports the assertions made by S&S and I’m kind of sorry that Bioware is making this game for people like me in lieu of the die-hard Origins fans who are longing for a return to the ‘dark tone’ of the first game (I will say that some of the commenters here have done a very good job of defining what they mean by ‘dark tone’) just because they feel so passionately about it and it’s a shame that such strong feelings should be frustrated.
That being said, some people seem to be taking things to extremes and though I don’t know any of the people making these videos or comments personally, I have to wonder how much of their obsessive love for Origins-and only Origins-is due to nostalgia-both because they personally were in a better place in their lives when they played it and because the gaming landscape was different, perhaps less saturated, and it was easier to impress and push boundaries because there were still a number of boundaries to push. It’s fine if it is; I respect nostalgia. There are games that I love much more than they deserve just because I first played them when I was happier and playing them now reminds me of that time. But I’m aware of that and would not objectively say that they are masterpieces just because of it (not saying that Origins is not, necessarily; just using a personal example). And I’m not saying that it’s all nostalgia but it seems so over the top that it implies that there is some other emotional aspect there.
I do wish that I could fully appreciate Origins the way so many do, but we are all entitled to our opinions and we are all allowed to call ourselves Dragon Age fans. I think that the real culprit here, and the reason that developers can’t make games for smaller groups of die-hard fans is that to get a AAA game published today, it has to appeal to the largest group of fans possible. From the trailer, there are a number of things about Veilguard that remind me of Final Fantasy 16 (including the drama surrounding it) and those developers were upfront saying that they really needed to extend the fanbase even if it meant making changes that older fans wouldn’t like. So no, Bioware as a company doesn’t care about the hardcore Origins fans but hey, they don’t care about fans like me either and you never know-maybe the pendulum will swing the other direction someday soon and it will become lucrative to make games like Origins again.
Long comment but I hope you can consider it a compliment that so many people feel inspired to write novels in your comment section! Great video!
@@erinhall942 definitely an unpopular opinion but not an invalid one. Combat in DAO was not the reason I played the game 11 times. It was the story, world, characters and the origins. That is what I loved about it. So, I get you on the combat side. As for the story I don't particularly get it. I enjoyed it a lot.
I don't particularly think S&S is right because you like DAV because it seems like an evolution of DAI. What S&S's fundamental argument is, is that DAI isn't like DAO. That there is no connection between them. Which is wrong. Playing both games will see that there are connections between them.
But I do agree that I do feel sorry for DAO fans. They wanted a sequel that refined and improved on DAO's combat. And I will say that I do wonder what a sequel to DAO's combat might be like.
I try not to presume the reason they like DAO up to nostalgia. Because that implies that there is no value to DAO other than nostalgia. And it doesn't really address their arguments. Saying they like it because of nostalgia doesn't really meet them where they are at. Now I am not saying that nostalgia isn't a factor just, personally, I don't feel comfortable making that argument.
I don't like the implication here. That Bioware isn't appealing to their fans. I player DAO the most out of any game and I don't feel like the newer games aren't appealing to older fans. Which is why I don't like the term hardcore DAO fan, as it implies that the future games don't have anything in common with DAO. Which is just untrue.
I appreciate the comments a lot. The essay comments may come as I am literally about to climb into bed but I love seeing people chatting and discussing with me. It's one of the biggest reasons I love doing this. Seeing people passionate about the topic. So, thanks for the comment!
@@Knight1029 Thank you for your reply! It’s great to see a UA-camr who is so involved in discourse with their viewers!
Apologies if I made it sound like I thought nostalgia was the only value to be found in Origins, as I don’t believe that is the case. It seems to me that S&S and others who share his views have forged such a strong emotional attachment to the game that perhaps their perspective becomes warped and, as you said in your video, they can only see the differences in the subsequent games, not the similarities, and this seems so over and above the typical response to even an excellent video game that I wonder if there is something else prompting those emotions.
I do think that the Dragon Age developers themselves do care about listening to and engaging with the fans. However, Bioware and EA are businesses and on the corporate side, I do believe that the priority is getting the most fans and getting the most money and since they control who gets the green light, I think that unfortunately there is a lot of control exerted by people who don’t necessarily care about Dragon Age itself or the fans who love it, just the money that will be paid to play the games. That probably sounds really cynical. My point there was that what we will see in Veilguard might not necessarily be exactly what the developers wanted to give the fans, but they had to do what was going to get approved. I don’t mean to say that Veilguard will be bad; I think it looks fantastic and I can’t wait to play it but it may not be the original vision for the game. Maybe they wanted to return to tactical combat. And as I said, if tactical combat becomes popular again, maybe the corporate side will approve another game made with those systems. I hope so; I would love for fans of that style of gameplay to get a game that they feel is a more faithful continuation of Origins.
Last but not least, I am now inspired to have another go at Origins (it’s been years) and attempt to experience the game as a whole, even if there are certain aspects that I don’t enjoy. I think this is only fair if I am to have any involvement in the discourse surrounding the games and I’m sure it will make Veilguard even more enjoyable. Thanks and hopefully I will return with a new appreciation for this game that people love so very much.
@@erinhall942 its a pleasure! I absolutely love chatting with people regardless if the agree or disagree with me. Its one of the things I love about making videos. Seeing people comment and responding to them is a great joy I have.
Its cool. Now that you clarified I get what you mean. I do agree that their love for DAO has warped their perceptive on the newer games where they see differences more than similarities. I do think that the response was definitely fueled, in part, due to some nostalgia.
I get what you mean then. EA has definitely caused Bioware to make changes that they otherwise wouldn't have. DA2 has its combat because EA wanted it to be more action-y. So, I can see what you mean. DAV does look good but I do know that EA must have had a hand in the combat system, to some degree.
I am happy to hear that. I hope when you play DAO you will have a good time of it. It definitely holds up well but it is also a product of its time. What origin are you gonna go for?
Thank you for clarifying what you meant by your points. It was a great discussion to have.
@@Knight1029 Glad to hear I made more sense the second time. I tend to be overly wordy but I’m learning that this comes at the expense of clarity.
I have heard others say that the Dalish elf origin is interesting and ties into to the overarching story in a different way so I think I will go with that one.
@@erinhall942 it's hard to learn but you have to know how many words it takes to get your point across. For me this sometimes manifests in me just saying a few words. Because I don't think there is anything else to say.
That's cool. My personal favorite origin is the dwarf commoner. I love the story they have and how it intersects with the Orzammar plot. I also like the fish out of water experience. They are an outcast on the surface and so don't know what is what. Anyways I hope you enjoy DAO.
im just downloading da2 again as im watching this video lol....first off i love all the dragon age games, origins obviously is the goat but it was actually da2 that i played thru about 7 or 8 times atleast haha....i absolutely loved it lol....the combat rocked ...i loved everything about origins but the combat was the least i liked about it lol .....new ones combat looks sick af in my eyes ....cant w8 for it :)
I love the DA2 combat as well! There is just something so energizing and engaging with the combat. I love playing mages and particular a force mage.
I am also looking forward to the next one!
Thank you for making this video. That video you responded to is a desperate declaration of painting the narrative that Dragon Age Origin fans who started with Dragon Age Origins can not be fans of the current games, when the truth is those who only like Origins are a very small figure. The DA series is telling a world story similar to ASOIAF and the story even expands to comics and books. Dragon Age Inquisition while being accused of everything from woke to an average RPG sold millions with numerous creator playthrough/content videos being uploaded in support. DA Origins was amazing for "world building", but unless every sequel game was centered during a "Blight" and you just create a new Grey Warden, I personally couldn't see everything remaining the same as Origins. I'm sorry, but if you understand the DA world basics, Fereldon (even without the Blight) does not give the same look or vibes as Orlais or Minrathous. I love Resident Evil 2, but I also love RE4 and didn't stop playing Resident Evil 5 or 6. Final Fantasy XII is my favorite, but originally it was FF4.
What gets me is trying to define what it means to be a "true" Dragon Age fan. Which continently makes them "true" fans and everyone else just tourists. Dragon Age is more than just what DAO was. The world was a big factor in the appeal of DAO. Making games in different parts of the world just make sense.
Also I know for a fact if DA2 was just another Blight those same fans would complain still.
Anyways glad you liked the video! I have felt like this for a while since these "fans" seemingly didact a lot of the discourse. So, I wanted to maybe push back a bit. And give others who feel like me a voice.
Too long didn't watch. Whatever ideas you conveyed in this video, write them down and make something shorter.
I respect that.
Basic jist is that I think Dragon Age Origin fans don't understand their own game. Because they assume it was dark because its a dark setting when in reality it was like that for a reason. The other games are still dark but in their own ways that make sense for their story.
Sometimes when I close my eyes I can't see
I agree. That also happens to me.
Uh, you are aware that Tevinter is the rape, slave, and sacrifice capitol of the Dragon Age universe, right? So of course storylines based on those things should appear in Veilguard, but they won't. I didn't agree with everything S&S said in his video, but he was right about BioWare shifting away from mature plots and themes.
What? There was a lot of rape, slavery and sacrifice in DA2. DAI did have its darkness as well. With the whole people being consumed by red lyrium, as in turned into red lyrium. Or the fact that a mayor flooded a whole town. Bioware hasn't shifted away from mature plots and themes. They just have focused on different elements of dark fantasy.
@@Knight1029 Right, but S&S's point was about Veilguard and what BioWare would show today in a Dragon Age game.
DA2 gets criticized for different reasons. I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone criticize DA2 for a lack of mature or dark themes.
DA:I had its darkness as well, but the point was about mature or dark themes like those of Origins. DA:I marked the beginning of when BioWare started moving away from that. An excellent example of that is the broodmother. Mark Darrah has said numerous times on his stream that broodmothers are never coming back, and not just due to their grotesque sexual nature, but also due to how they are created. The desire demons are another example. I'm all for variation on their design, but they need to have some of them retain the sexual design as well.
Again, the issue isn't that DA:I didn't have some darkness, it's more about how it was presented. We learn about the flooding of Crestwood's people long after the fact. And the idea of corruption is a dark concept, but the worst we ever see of that is the red lyrium behemoth and its codex. A pretty clear shift away from Hespith's poem, for example. And like I wrote, the ultimate point here was about Veilguard and how it will present its themes. If it presents the same dark topics as Origins in the same way, I'll eat my words with no sauce!
And full disclosure, Origins is my favorite. I'm very much an Origins fan. While I think DA2 was not good from a game design standpoint, I still enjoyed it, mainly due to how I played it. And I am also a fan of Inquisition, which I believe was a huge step back in the right direction toward Origins in many ways.
@@BelieveIt1051 I guess but I don't fully believe that. I do think that if they were making another Blight story they would do what DAO did. Sure it won't be the exact same but I have faith it would. Maybe this is me being a bit delusional but I think it would still happen.
And if they don't do that then I do think it does suck. As odd as the broodmothers are I would like to see them again some day.
@@Knight1029 Thedas was a dark place long before the 5th Blight, which was actually the shortest in history to the point people questioned if it even was a blight after the fact. Much of Origins' darkness was in dealing with Loghain's and Howe's treachery. And of course the issues we witnessed in Orzammar had nothing to do with the blight, since the dwarves actually consider a blight to be a vacation from fighting darkspawn, which are always around somehwere.
Well I think BioWare has a good opportunity to show the first broodmother, that being a female darkspawn Magister who was part of the group that invaded the Golden City. Logically that's where the first darkspawn soldiers would have come from. But again, BioWare wants to move away from the sexual and the dark concepts they fear might offend or distress their "modern audience".
@@BelieveIt1051 I just don't know how you can play the newer games and not see they are dark as well. They may not be the same as DAO dark but they are still dark in their own ways.
I think you're missing some crucial parts of the "darkness" argument. You're saying that DAO had those dark moments for a reason, like setting up the world. Why bother setting up a world as dark as the one in DAO, only to completely ignore it later? The whole reason you set up a dark fantasy world is to give the player a dark world to play in and the games should reflect that. Then, you're saying that the following games didn't have reasons to have those darker moments. Well, that is actually the core of the problem. The writing was done in such a way where the story didn't need the player to have those dark moments and choices to deal with. In DAI, the world is probably in the worst state in the entire series with the mage-templar war, but the game doesn't really portray that. You never really get that sense of urgency and danger that you got in DAO. For the record, I think all the concerns about tone apply more to DAI than DA2. I felt the tone of DA2 was still sufficiently dark and fit well with what DAO set up. DAI also had some good moments, but the Inquisitor overall just felt like too much of a messiah figure to me.
Also remember, it's not just one thing that they changed from DAO to DA2 and DAI. They basically changed the entire way you interact with the game:
- Dialogue list changed to dialogue wheel meaning fewer dialogue options
- Silent Protagonist to voiced protagonist, meaning the players could no longer roleplay the same way they did in DAO
- Faster paced combat (not really a problem, but still a change and some people preferred slower paced combat of DAO)
- Watered down tactics system to set up your party's behavior
- DAI completely changed the color palette, visually making it a much brighter game, even though the state of the world was arguably the worst it's ever been in as said earlier.
- DAI no more blood magic.
These are just a few examples and it might not mean anything to you as someone who prefers DA2, but many DAO fans loved that game specifically for these reasons and they were all taken away. And now with Veilguard, the series moves even further away from DAO. Anyway, it all comes down to preference and how the game ultimately "feels" to play. Some will prefer the feel of DA2 and DAI and others will prefer the feel of DAO.
Just to be clear, I really enjoyed DA2. It is far superior to DAI in my opinion. Multiple playthroughs under my belt. Cheers! And sorry for the long comment.
To construct the same dark fantasy that DAO had would mean the Blights would have to happen over and over again. But the issue with that is when their are no more Blights what then? Each Dragon Age game has dark fantasy but expresses it in different ways. DAI is more subtle about it but a lot of the subtleness comes from the fact the open world forces those elements into the background. DAI feels less dark because of that even though it has a lot of dark fantasy to it. Such as Emprise Du Lion where the story is that towns people are kidnapped and turned into red lyrium nodes. Or the many codex entries in the game describing stuff like rape.
Each game was dark just in a way that made sense for the stories it had. I will concede that DAI could have gone harder on it but its hardly clean.
As for DAI having a messiah feeling; that was the point. What's the compliant?
Each game has changed a lot and as I said in the video and throughout this comment section I would have liked a more consistent series.
My first game was DAO and I played it over 11 times. While DA2 was 3 times and DAI was 4 times. I do miss some stuff from DAO such as the origins. I am not uncritical in my liking of the series.
Its cool. I like to see people passionate about stuff. Even if we disagree.
@@Knight1029 I disagree that they could only create a dark atmosphere if there is a blight. Like I said, I think the setting of DAI, with a war raging between mages and templars, is more than sufficient to have a dark atmosphere. Playing the game, I felt disconnected from the terrible state the world was in. It didn't feel like there was a war going on. I didn't feel threatened by the war. They could have created fantastic quests specifically related to the war where the Inquisitor would have had to make extremely difficult choices, but those moments just weren't there. You said DAI was more subtle about the darkness, but the world was on fire. There was no reason for them to be subtle. Overall, DAI just feels like an enormous missed opportunity.
About the messiah thing, part of the DA (or actually BioWare) roleplaying experience is being able to play as an "evil" protagonist. You just couldn't do that as the Inquisitor. You could be a jerk, but that's about it. Even within the confines of the story of DAI, I think they could've given the player deeper opportunities to roleplay like that, and still have it make sense.
I agree with what you said about the consistency of the series. It is probably at the core of this whole argument. Because the games differ so much in style, even though they were all good games, there will always be a bit of division among fans.
I just hope Dragon Age Veilguard has a good story, good writing, good characters, the I'll enjoy it for what it is.
@@hugofourie1193 again I don't necessarily disagree with you on the fact that DAI could have shown itself to be more darker. Sure there were a lot of missed opportunities. But I still think it is very dark in some areas like the examples I mentioned before.
You can play as a jerk in DAI. So, much so that Cassandra will drink herself stupid because of how bad you can be and most companions will leave you. You can only do that if you are terrible.
I hope so to. I hope DAV well turn out well.
I'm a DA:O fan, it's my favorite game all-time. The differences I see is that the banter in DA:O is infinitely better than in the other two games. I find the story much more compelling and well written and the characters superior. I won't lie, I like the DA:O combat system as well. That said I don't believe DA2 or Inquisition are bad games (although the more "open world" aspect of Inquisition is annoying for someone who likes to 100% it, and the reuse of assets in DA2 is excessive). I just don't believe either game measures up to DA:O.
I think all the games have amazing banter. Like in DAI the banter with Varric and Solas about the lonely man is just peak writing. Same with their stories. There are issues with the newer games but I don't think its writing.
Origins fans already got a game last year...Baldurs Gate 3
A game sadly far superior to this one.
@@ANGRYWOLVERINE2060-ft2ncto be fair, nobody expects Veilguard to surpass BG3. There’s no trust or passion in BioWare anymore. If people actually think that, then they’re delusional.
I wouldn't really describe BG3 as a successor to DAO. The game doesn't really have origins the way DAO had it and the game is turn based. Also the story isn't as good as DAO, in my opinion.
You mean "Horny's Gate Everything tries to F you" Edition? C'mon man we want a fantasy game not Fortnite p0rn. If Tolkien would wake up from the grave he would kill himself.
And the people who did origins did BG1 and BG2 of course BG3 would follow origins was the successor and BG3 had an expanded audience
Liking Origins is fine, it's an excellent game, but it's been 15 years. People need to move on and stop clinging to it like it's their ex-girlfriend who dumped them in highschool
Why do we Origin fans have to like this game just because you do ? You can like it we can dislike it.
@@ANGRYWOLVERINE2060-ft2nc You're free to dislike it, my complaint was for people who only like Origins and always whine about how the rest of the games aren't like it when the franchise is clearly never going back to that. You want Origins, then just consider it a stand-alone game and go play that.
@@danielabulgarelli81 You have no reason to complain about it though. When a dev makes an inferior sequel people should 100% always complain and demand better. If the devs want to destroy their franchise they have the freedom to do so, but no one should be obligated to praise them for it.
funny how that works because if every single dark fantasy will be turned into kid animation you will say the same
''get over it bro'' alright i ll get over it and now i want a new dark fantasy IP isnt it my right to have one
oh no probably its not everything needs to be safe right bro
I feel you. If people think that Dragon Age isn't going to be like DAO then why are they still here?
I am a Dragon Age fan since Origins as well, as well as a Star Wars fan, and both fanbases are absolutely toxic right now! Why? Because so many are holding onto nostalgia and wanting the same thing over and over and over...but what franchise does that!? The gameplay mechanics in Origins is severely outdated, just like Doom's FPS from back in '93 and all the JRPG games from the 90's, and would fail today compared to every other game coming out!
Everyone acts like the tone or story has diminished since the first game, but that is farthest from the truth from people that have ACTUALLY played these games! Problem is people cannot handle or comprehend change, which is more of a THEM problem than anything BioWare does...
I can feel like so many people have been stuck in the past. I don't think it's wrong to want more of the gameplay DAO provided but it can be tiring just hearing them complain.
No yeah. The series hasn't gotten any darker. It is still dark but in different ways.
Well, remember the Romans.
The Gladiators didn't do just one fight to the Death, and then they changed to wooden Swords and told everyone that it just was to demonstrate the thing ^^
Entertain the Audience or a Rebellion is on your Steps. Aaaaaaaaand here it is!
And btw, I have a feeling that they tossed the wooden Swords away and switched to Ballon Swords by now :D
I have no idea what your saying.
Biggest problem Dragon Age really has is trying to streamline it, they're trying to fit DA into the AAA action-adventure RPG niche and it's all just super derrivetive, because everyone in that niche is trying to do one thing and one thing only: Copy Witcher 3.
I do see some good things in Veilguard, despite dogshit combat and horrible artstyle, they are bringing back "Origins" kinda ... And they are also stepping away from open world formula which is VERY GOOD IMO. Companions look they're gonna suck ass though, but it's just an assumption based on everything I have seen, they just look like stereotypes we have seen a lot of in media. The smug intellectual black woman, quirky adventurous asian girl, intellectual old white guy with dubious morality, white knight black guy, strong and stoic Qunari woman, kind and rough around the ages dwarf woman, brooding hispanic assassin ... HOL UP, EZIO IS THAT YOU??? Although Ezio didn't do much brooding.
Dragon Age has been always misunderstood by EA. The gameplay shifted because they believe other gameplay styles will sell well. Which isn't untrue. But Dragon Age has retained its core ideas of characters, story and world.
I look forward to the game. I think it looks great!
@@Knight1029 "what will sell well" - seems to be their main approach to everything. I think it's too early to say wether it retained it's core ideas, we'll have to actually play the game for that. For now I am super skeptical.
@@NoName-ym5zj I guess so. We will wait an see then.
Honestly, DA:O wasn't that "dark"?? I mean not in the way they make it seem like it was constant edge and angst. I feel like a lot of the darkness was sorta behind the scenes and more in the lore, because yeah there's some crazy shit happening or that has happened in the world of Dragon Age. I mean, yeah you CAN do a lot of terrible things and generally behave like a total ass(or worse), there's a lot of 'dark' choices, but it's not like you're only presented with impossibly dark choices. There's generally a "good" choice you can make too, usually. The game also has a lot of levity and humor and it has a lot of "good" endings, so I get confused with all this focus on its "darkness" by certain fans. I LOVE DA:O for a lot of reasons, and certainly the world and lore was one of them, as well as some of the themes (dark or not), but it was also the humor and the companions too.
My main gripe with DA2 was just how repetitive the maps and environment felt. It was just unfortunate, IMO. I also didn't like the handling of Anders/Justice, which is weird cuz I love angst and I loved Anders and Justice in Awakening, but sheesh was I disappointed. I can't remember much from the game other than the ending. It's the only dragon age game I've played only once. It just wasn't for me.
I loved DA:I, there's some problems with it though of course. But I generally just loved the companions and experiencing the world again. "Darkness" and "grit" was not really what drew me to Dragon Age. It was layering of the world as you played the games, and the interactions and choices you can make--the story you can craft, really. I mean it is a RPG lol!
The hate for Veilguard seems overblown right now... I actually liked the trailer, but according to some people, because I liked the trailer that introduced the companions, I'm not a "real" fan. Whatever that means. If the game comes out and there are things that are actually bad, then fine. But sheesh let's wait and see! I'm not gonna judge it based off a trailer that had nothing to do with the gameplay. The Origins trailers were pretty friggin wonky from what I remember too! Honestly, to me, Veilguard sounds promising with the factions and how they are said to influence your story. Hopefully it's executed well! Also, I'd like to say I LOVE THE DESIGNS for Veilguard companions!! They look AMAZING, and Harding especially looks friggin GORGEOUS.
DAO has a air of dark fantasy but it wasn't something constant. It would come and go. It wasn't as people described it. The way it sounds coming from them is that DAO was constantly dark and you had to make tuff decisions. When in reality the game wasn't that.
I like all the games. There are issues with them like the mentioned reused maps of DA2 or the big open worlds of DAI but on a whole they were good where it mattered most. Its characters, world and story. And I think as long as that remains it will be good.
Oh, yeah. The DAV trailer hate was overblown. I just don't get it. Like every trailer before wasn't that representative of the games.
I love the designs of the companions to! They just look really good and honestly bring me so much joy.
So, respectfully, I disagree with your take. Not because your reasoning was wrong. You were very logical.
Hmm. How do I put this. While I think the complaints coming from Origins fans are in a way based mostly on aesthetics and emotions, not reason, I don’t think that emotional reaction is trivial or unwarranted. I also don’t think it has very much to do with dragon age.
It has significantly more to do with the current state of American media broadly, the feeling of despair and disenfranchisement in that country, especially among young men, and the longing for any media that represents that struggle.
Many IPs are abandoning what they see as a mandate and failing to represent what has traditionally been “their” space.
I, a non-American, mostly a-political person, don’t see it that way, but I’m empathetic enough to see and feel where they’re coming from.
I enjoyed Origins more than the other games. (I never played 2 to completion). I also preferred Origins’ aesthetic. But that didn’t stop me from playing hundreds of hours of inquisition and loving it. I would even have preferred a return to form, darker world, darker themes, darker art choices etc. There just isn’t enough of that media imo. And that vacuum, I’m fairly certain, is where this whining is coming from, really.
The mass of long time fans wants, more than anything, to throw money at something that feels the way origins felt.
I should have said this in the video; I think the emotional reactions are valid and need to be considered. My issue with a lot of te Origins fans isn't their opinion but them not being honest on why they feel the way they do. If they just said what they felt I wouldn't be able to disagree. In some ways I can agree. I do often times wonder what the series would look like if it kept true to its asethetic and gameplay. And I imagine it would be great.
There is a bit of sadness there. And I can understand not wanting a series you love change in a way you don't agree. It happened to me with Assassin's Creed.
Thank you for point that out. I should have said that in the video.
@@Knight1029 thanks for the reply, and your thoughtful video. I’ve been thinking about this topic since the trailer appeared and yours was the most logical video talking about it.
I see a lot of woke vs. anti-woke commentary and I found it funny because DAO pioneered gay representation and relationships in games. When I saw your video title I thought that would be the obvious angle of hypocrisy in the pro-origins narrative. I was pleasantly surprised to get a more technical take on the game mechanics. I hadn’t thought about it from that angle. Cheers. Liked and subbed,
Also, the funny part in your video about moral dilemmas cracked me up. Whether or not to let sten out of his cage is more morally complicated than many of the major faction quests.
@@jeremygardner5987 Thank you! I am glad I achieved my goals then. I try to make sure I am not just bashing another side because they are on a different team.
I did the title mostly for the youtube algorithms. I am not particular happy about it. I just use it to get my message across. Anyways I try to take an angle that isn't just hypocrisy because that doesn't feel true.
Thank you for liking and subbing! I hope I can keep making videos that you enjoy.
@@jeremygardner5987 Oh yeah! That is true. I forgot about that. I was mostly focusing on the bigger choices rather than those smaller ones.
You do make a good point.
I never do this. I did not agree with your takes at all. You pause the video way to much. He never got to make any points before you intrrupt.
What is disagreeable about my takes?
tourist
I agree.
Okay, this seems a bit more harsh than intended, but I honestly don't know how else I can express my initial reaction to your video.
How dare you tell fans they don't understand a game they love, just because they don't share your opinion? Do you have any idea how tired and boring this accusation has become?
It's the same BS white-knights told us about the ending of ME3, it's the same BS we get told every time we don't like how a gaming series develops.
"You just don't get it."
No, I get it, I just don't see it the same way you do.
Saying fe. that DAO is darker than the other games (something to which I personally wouldn't completely agree, for me in some ways DA2 is much bleaker than DAO), doesn't mean we say it's dark for the sake of being dark, it's you who is implying that this is what DAO fans think.
Of course the darkness is there for a reason, we are in a horrifying crisis, far larger in scale than in DA2, and due to the Origins' system we see many different parts of society, with all the darkness in them. Whether it's the political intrigue and rigid caste system in Orzammar, the racism and despair in the alienage, the isolation and striving for something long gone that will never come back from the Dalish, the intrigues and betrayal and treason among the nobles and the imprisonment of and the control over the mages in their towers.
We see all of that, and that is what makes it clear that this is a dark fantasy world like fe. Witcher as well.
And while DA2 also shows us some of that, it doesn't really go as deep or is as bleak in its portrayal, apart from the mages/templar issue. In DAI and to a lesser extent in DA2, we see less of the overall darkness of the world, I mean, so much of DAI is spent riding on a mount or walking through the sunshine in beautiful landscapes..
Now, there is still darkness in DAI, there is a lot of Darkness in DA2, if you look at the game with the right mindset, but there is a difference in portrayal.
In many ways I think DA2 has a more depressing message than DAO, for all the ugliness we are shown, for all the torture, SA, slavery (basically), treason etc.. in the end, after we beat the Darkspawn, we can look into the future optimistically. Even for Dalish or Alienage elf characters, there is a possible silver lining on the horizon.
While in DA2, in the end Hawke, for all their fighting and all their deeds, accomplishes very little.
It is as if you can't save anyone in DA2, not important characters (to Hawke), like your mother, but also not smaller parts, almost all the templars and mages end up the same way, whether you help one side or the other, whether you convince one of them in Act 1 or 2 or not, their fate remains the same.
You can't stop anything from happening, Anders will always become a terrorist, the Knight-Commander will always evolve into a monster, the mages will always have many fall to Blood Magic... the Qunari will always attack. Ultimately, if you remove Hawke from the story, events would have played out the same way. For me, there is very little player agency in DA2.
It might not look quite as bleak, it might not ALWAYS show the same amount of darkness, but the message seems way worse to me. So, maybe we agree, at least insofar, that I see Darkness in the sequels, and don't see DAO as the only dark and bleak game in the series.
As for buttonmashing, others have mentioned it, there is a huge difference between the gameplay feel on consoles and PC, while the fighting in DA2 seems overabundant and spamming on PC it seems like buttonmashing on consoles.
And I'm not even going into DAI, because that goes completely Action-RPG.
I can't speak for all fans, but I know that myself and many other DAO fans play modded versions of the game, where the tactical combat is improved and even more important than in the base game, plus we also use mods to get the combat system in the later games as close as possible to DAO. And even though these are mods, since I always play with them, they are essential to my experience when playing DAO.
Now, in general there is one big difference between DAO and the follow-ups and to a lesser extent between ME1 and its sequels.
DAO is the last of Bioware's classic CRPGs, it's much closer to Baldur's Gate, Kotor and Neverwinter Nights than it is to its own sequels in spirit and set-up. The same holds true partially for ME, where the first one, even though it has a sort of FPS combat, it has very strong RPG systems underlying, which were also drastically reduced in each of the following games.
DA2, ME2 onward is the new Bioware, the EA controlled Bioware, the "let's turn our games into casual action games" Bioware
I can literally make the same arguement you made about DA2 about DAO. You can't save human noble parents, forced fight with Uldred, you can't save Denerim from being torched, Morrigan will always disappear in the end, Riordan always dies, Arl Eamon will always be cured with Andrastes ashes, if you remove the Warden, it would be the same and they literally did let you play an alternate reality, where you play as the Darkspawn and fight Alistairs party without the Warden. It's called Darkspawn Chronicles. You just decided to complain exactly about the parts where you did not have any choice, but you don't do that with origins? Double standard. The choices in DA2 are mostly about the fate of your sibling, and the other companions either end in betrayal or not / dead or not and specifics about who you decided to back and what their opinion was of you. You can also become the new Viscount if you side with the templars, but it matters as much as it did for a human noble marrying Anora/Alistair.
It comes down to you not liking how the story plays out in DA2 which is fine, but nothing you criticized DA2 for holds any merit.
And what does that mean, "fighting in DA2 seems overabundant and spamming"? In DAO you spam your abilities just as much, slower attack animations, but faster abilities coming off cooldowns. Cone of cold 15s vs 30s, Heal 5s vs 40s, Fireball 10s vs 20s, Winters grasp 8s vs 20s, you get the point? Overpowered spells with short cooldowns, there is almost no descision making in Origin combat, definitely more in DA2.
Its cool. I like to see the passion.
My point with "DAO fans don't understand their own game" is that from everyone I see they simply don't. You clearly understand that the later games are darker but in different ways. We even agree that DAI's darkness is faded into the background because of its open world. So, there is nothing for us to disagree on other than how many fans don't understand the game. From what I see in the video I covered and its comments, also elsewhere, that not many people understand DAO.
And as I said in the comments I think mentioning DA2 being button mashy is odd. Like why are we focusing on that so much? Its framed in this manipulative way to make DA2 look worse.
The RPGs systems being discussed just seem odd to me. Throughout all Bioware games you had very little freedom. You don't have the freedom to construct your own backstory. Meaning that you can not be anyone else other than Gorian's Ward and a Bhaalspawn. Nor can you choose who your family is. Its very curated. Bioware isn't or trying to be a studio like Larian. They have always used RPG mechanics for storytelling purposes.
@@kenzovich9225 yeah. DAO and Bioware broadly don't give the player that much freedom. You can't kill anyone you want. Bioware decides on who the player can or can't kill.
I love the original darkspawn now it demons in inquisition they have the fade ripped open now just limited demons lesser shades with different colors
I don't mind their designs as well. I think their pretty cool. I just don't think the ones we have now are that bad. For the demons new designs it seems there is a lore reason. Which is pretty cool, I think.
@@Knight1029 i agree i just figured you would either have more/environmental effect for a rift/veil opens and i hope thats more explored
@@vergillives9890 I hope that's more explored as well. It would be cool to see how they effect the world around them, more than DAI.
They do understand their own game. You just don't agree with them mate. You keep saying things need to have a reason or a justification for this or that, and no, they just don't. This is just a matter of different preferences, and when we look at all the different games over the years, it's very clear that DAO is what people prefer, fans and non-fans alike. Devs should listen, and give customers the product that they want.
DAI outsold DAO near 2 to 1 over their first years. So maybe you aren't the majority fan you think you are.
@@GSpotFrenzy Very few people that have played both games prefer DAI to DAO. We literally lived through tons of DAI players going back to try DAO for the first time and preferring DAO. We lived through all the media and forums and people comparing the games. Very sorry but no you're just wrong, and you shouldn't try to retcon history that we lived through and can remember.
DAO is good because it used its dark elements for a purpose. It didn't do it for no reason. Which is why it was so good. What is the difference between bad dark fantasy and good dark fantasy? Well I think it is how its used. Would Dragon Age be better if it was dark for no reason? No, it wouldn't be.
The newer games aren't like DAO because it doesn't cover the same things. That's fine.
@@rmelzhim6033 What? My guy all he said was that DAI sold more than DAO. Which is true.
@@Knight1029 Yes we know it's true that DAI sold more than DAO. I was responding to his second sentence. The majority of fans that played both games preferred DAO. That's what I distinctly remember and saw everywhere on game sites and media and forums all over the internet.
As for the points/reasons thing I just can't agree and I think both you and they are right in different ways. It's better when things happen for a good reason sure, but unexplained and mysterious things happen all the time, especially in real life. Games use unexplained behaviour and events to create mysteries that might or might not get explained way later, and that's easily something that could be applied here.
The thing is Everyone should be Screaming at Bioware (What Do you want to Do) Mass Effect Andromeda Failed, Anthem Failed & Now they treat Dragon Age The Veilguard like a Goodbye Party that we waited 10 Years for. Bioware lets have a Party. If I was told by EA 1 more mess up and Your Gone I sure wouldn't have a Party unless I really wanted to Shut down my Business.
I don't man. I think a criticism that is very true of Bioware is a lack of consistency. Mass Effect 1 and 2 are different in a number of ways. Such as gameplay. Which sucks. Same with Dragon Age.
@@Knight1029 Mass Effect 1 & 2 were cool Mass Effect 3 that's a whole Another story. The thing with Mass Effect 1 & 2 was PC to Console which Sorry but yeah may as well Go Great thanks Consoles selling more.
@@Knight1029 By the Way if you even think of coming Back and Saying How Dare Console Exist you may as well say Gaming shouldn't Exist which would make your Reply mute. 1985 is when Gaming really took off and that was with the Nintendo Entertainment System, There be No Playstation, Xbox or PC Gaming without it.
@@Knight1029 ME 1 and 2 are different because the team split down the middle during development, one side wanted the original ME style and the other wanted an action combat game, the latter won and the latter has been winning ever since.
@@mattstansbeary3068 Gaming would have existed regardless, humans are too curious for it to have never taken off.
Going around and telling people they don't "understand" the things they like and don't like is very odd to say the least. People have different preferences. Imagine someone saying: people who don't like chocolate are wrong because they don't understand what chocolate really is...in the end you just come off as a know-it-all who wants to point out to the dumb plebs why they are so dumb and misinformed, but hey whatever floats your boat.
In this analogy if they think chocolate is supposed to be salty then yeah. They don't understand it. People assume DAO is a this really dark game. Which is true but it is that way for a reason.
@@Knight1029 You know better than everyone else, I get it.
@@apres-lachute8718 thanks I guess?
@@Knight1029 We aren't assuming it, we're inferring it based on our experiences/evidence.
@@IgnoreMeImWrong that experience and evidence being?
The irony here is you are intentionally trying to not to understand DAO Fans.
The entire video you're trying to critique is giving you examples of how the other games are not as dark as the first game, and every single point you've said some variation of "You don't understand your own game" or "It happened for a reason" and then you immediately follow up with trying to say DAO fans don't give examples as to how the other games are less dark. You also keep trying to pull some asinine take of trying to claim the DAO fans want things like sexual assault to happen just for the sake of it happening. We don't and the fact that you keep trying to claim that the whole video is in pretty poor tastes.
It sounds like the person who doesn't understand DAO is you.
Yeah, what DAO did with its dark fantasy was done for a reason. The rest of the franchise still does that but in different ways that make sense for what it is doing.
It’s nothing to do with the core principle of DA. It’s even worst than DA2 with the logic (if you regard of the mechanics).
Not:I have problem with the limited map (world) of DA2.
Where is the strategy with combat in Veil guard?😳🤷♂️
What do you mean it has nothing to do with the core principle of Dragon Age?
@@Knight1029 I mean strategising the combat.
@@R2N81 okay. So, with that new information in mind; I get what your saying but for me I think the newer Dragon Age games are fine.
The point he's making is that Origins dared to go where other studios were not, they went into the unknown, to where it wasn't safe. Inquisition is entirely safe.
I don't like DA2 as part of the franchise but on its own, it stands tall, it was dark as hell in many places, and it wasn't being used to "make a point".
What? DA2 was making a point. As I said in the video it was showing how a cycle of violence feeds into itself. It shows how the templar's suspicion and percussion can lead to the mages reacting violently which in turn makes the templars behavior worse. There was a point to it. It wasn't dark just because.
The franchise is still dark just in different ways.
I was hoping for a return back to the tactical gameplay, that's kinda what made Dragon Age Origins unique to other Rpgs back when DAO was a new game. I played through DA 2, it was fine. But I did lose interest by going to the same areas over and over. It wasn't interesting in that regard. Felt like I played in permanent deja vu.
It would had been nice to be able to just be nice in the game, without getting the surprise of two smooching men at the screen though in DA 2. That was not a pleasant view. Had to reload just to be mean to Anders instead.
As I said in the video it would have been cool if Dragon Age has a consistent gameplay style throughout the series. I think that would have been cool.
Origin fans aren't ready to have the conversation about how Origin's gameplay is just WoW but you control four characters instead of just one.
They can't handle the truth!
Im pretty sure any Origins player is aware of that
@@rain.l4621 As this video points out Origin fans seem to lack self awareness.
@@TheOtakuKat i mean the director themselves say they are taking inspiration from final fantasy instead of sticking with what DA already had
@@rain.l4621 Care to elaborate further because Final Fantasy itself has also worn many RPG hats over the years so just " being more like Final Fantasy" doesn't really tell me much, like which Final Fantasy are they aiming for?
This video reeks of arrogance from a know-it-all telling people who have been fans of DA:O for their entire lives that they are wrong to feel the way they feel.
This is not the path you want to go with your UA-cam career, friend. Fans are blamed enough for the failures of their favorite franchises. Very few are going to look on this favorably.
All I have said is that DAO isn't how some fans describe it. It isn't dark for dark sake. The feelings are true. That I don't think or said otherwise.
I don't think I blamed fans for the franchise's failures. I technically think its Bioware's fault for not making a consistent gameplay or art style. That is their biggest issue.
DA2s combat is the template they're using for every DA after it. lol
How ya think yas bloody got here?
What? I have played DA2 and the other games. They don't feel like DA2 combat at all. I have no idea what you are saying.
@@Knight1029 I don't care how you feel about things. This is one such problem of how we got here. Every step of the way they used the DA/ME2 formula but changed just enough that people "felt" it wasn't a major change.
The slope exists and you're sliding down it.
@@IgnoreMeImWrong okay? That is true but you could have just explained that in your original comment you know?
More like the devs don't understand their own game.
Don't know about that.
@Knight1029 the ones making the game aren't the original creators. I'd say it's more likely for us fans than those replacements to understand the game
@@DamienTenebrous The lead writer on Dragon Age Veilguard has been on the series since DAO. I think they know what they are doing.
Now that doesn't mean you can't take issue with what they are doing just that the people on it are new.
as someone whos played every game multiple times, read every book, have 2 big DA tattoos. Its both the surface and gameplay thats wrong, this isnt DA2 that still had some essence and i loved it too, veilguard is trying to make a generic souls like game and that is not DA. Youre grabbing onto the DA2 point far too much, that title didnt get the same scale of hate veilguard is getting. Even the whole Solas thing being an opening scene, we had the build up to him and now he is just some tutorial event, and no its not recognizably dragon age, the only thing dragon age is Varric, the rest without titling DA youd guess vetween ever rpg title out there, not even the demons stayed the same.
I do agree to a certain extent but I don't think it's entirely divorced from the ideas of Dragon Age. The dialogue and story feel like it. At least to me.
Origins was by far my favorite in the series and it is not close. I did enjoy DA2 though, more than Inquisition actually, but I did have a good time it nonetheless.
What would make this game more engrossing for me? The story and visuals. DA has always been a dark, bloody and sexy game. The men have always been a women/queer male fantasy while the women, up until Inquisition were the same for straight men/_typical_ lesbian/bi chicks. So I'd prefer it being _OK_ for women to have both long hair, a pretty face and boobs. Sorry, but sexy and dark, similar to Game of Thrones, is a huge part of the appeal.
Next the combat...I'm at a loss here as DA: Origins was incredibly strategic in it's combat. Your build directly effected how you played, and the options you had to tackle problems was incredible. DA 2 dummied that down a bit, Inquisition pulled it a bit further away from that strategy (ei hard in Origins took so much forethought it is nuts, while in Inquisition it was just a bunch of hit points and more damage...so rinse and repeat for a long period of time as opposed to fighting the perfect battle). Now I'm not saying the new combat won't work, it might be quite fun, for some people. Some people love FFVII's new combat. I think it is retarded, going backwards as opposed to sticking with a superior style.
So let's talk about "*purpose.*" You keep saying _"Well they did this because they were establishing X, but now they don't need to."_ My question to you would be _"What is the purpose of the change? What makes the changes they are making superior? Desire Demons had big boobs to represent desire, now they are jacked men to appeal to gay goth guys and emo chicks. Does that make the game better? Or would it make more sense to have a model for both sexes and have the one spawn that matches the characters sex/gender?"_ So if there is a reason and purpose to having so many people who were/are fans upset, and apparently we are talking in the millions here. Men, women, straight, LGBTQIAP+ seem to be a bit underwhelmed by what it going on, especially after going back to origins after playing BG3 and we see...this? More Disney'esque presentation with a lead (Corri) saying it is the queerest DA ever...not a great selling point. And where are the damn boobs. Yes, they are important my man. I swear, add blood flying everywhere and boobs along with a slightly more overcast sky and we would see a lot of the complaints being a lot milder.
Would the flippy flashy combat still be a problem? Well yeah, because 20M+ mil people just started on Pillars 2, DA: O, Original Sin 2, Wrath of the Righteous etc. after Baldur's Gate 3. A shit ton of those people, like myself despised the combat in the new God of War games while being really let down by the FFVII systems compared to the old version, or versions that are still similar like Persona 5.
Time will tell, and I hope to heck this game is fun. I hope to heck it is _"Dark"_ in it's presentation. I hope the themes are dark as there are millions of people who have never played the original and Corrinne and crew are not rebuilding Thedas in the same way Disney is ruining (well ruined) Star Wars with The Acolyte treatment. The gritty and sexual themes could make this seem like they simply took the combat in a _"Gameplay for dummies"_ directions spinoff type of thing, but this looks like it is changing everything and that sucks. Again, I hope I am wrong. I hope they manage to be inclusive as heck while not excluding old fans...except simply by adjusting the combat so massively they already have.
That by itself is enough to say _"Wow, you are taking a huge chance here. You know that this is not nearly as popular in this type of game, definitely not this franchise, and if you fail, Bioware is gone. Motive will be making the next Mass Effect and you'll be bitching on TMBLR about straight white men killing your dreams."_
Oh, and most people are saying _"We wanted the strategic gameplay, what are you doing?"_ It's just they change so many other things that it is easier for critics to say _"See, they just want hot women to romance when real women don't look like that. And yes, every guy does look dreamy, and if someone wants to fantasize over a brooding elf or a twisted up mustache 1930's Pirate looking aristocratic mage with chiseled abs that's fine. It is not fine if a straight white guy is looking at a long haired red heads boobs cleavage in the middle of a conversation though. Straight guys are out, and we need to make that abundantly clear."_
Lastly, the writing was better in Origins, though DA2 was borderline brilliant as well. The problem there is DAO had almost 4 years to work itself out while DA 2 had 16, 17 months? I liked DA2's story and writing, but Origins was just on a different level. The creator here obviously has different tastes, but the _"You're wrong bc I disagree."_ is not an argument. He said a million times. They are deeper, seem more real, have deeper flaws and more growth. This entire video is _"How? Why? Nuh Ahh. But it was there because ppl needed to know therefor it doesn't need to exist anymore bc people already know it is there. i mean if I am reading a book about WW2 mentioning Hitler more than once is kinda overkill don't you think? Wait you don't? How? How would that make it better at portraying WW2? I don't get it..."_ My goodness, this was a difficult video to watch.
Next time: Take notes while watching the video. Write an essay with clips from examples you are using as examples. Then you'd probably realize that you (the content creator here) agrees with Spell and Shield in everything save which game he prefers, though it does not discount any point made about Veilguard.
Big agree on just about everything said here. You kind of beat a dead horse about the ugly women/sexualization changes, but still true. Don't forget all the other stuff they are changing (ALL demons visuals are drastically different than previous entries, less party members, no direct control, less than half the usable abilities than any other title, etc.)
Well this is a lot. I'll respond to the important bits.
Dragon Age Veilguard will have sex scenes. Boobs will exist like it did in previous games. DAI showed Cassandra's tits and other female characters. Like it will be there. I don't see what the issue is here.
I think the combat in each game is fine. My only issue is the lack of a consistent gameplay style. That's my only issue.
So, to your question "What is the purpose of the change?" to explore different ideas and concepts in the setting. I imagine you would agree that Dragon Age isn't just the blights. It is cool to explore the setting through different countries and different stories. Those changes obviously will mean it won't be the same. But that's fine. It should be different if it is focusing on different things.
I don't know man I think the game looks fairly dark considering the gameplay reveal. Like it looks pretty good!
I think its important to for S&S to explain what they mean. Like I think you should also explain why DAO's writing was better. How was it better. What metric are we judging it on being better.
I disagree on S&S on how he frames the conversation and his understanding on Dragon Age. I don't think we would agree on that.
This whole discourse can be summed up as new fans being butthurt about old fans and telling people that entered with origins, they should not be disappointed that things they enjoyed about the first game get continually stripped out with each iteration and they should stay silent.
You can't tell me with a straight face that this series doesn't have an identity crisis.
Damn I guess me starting with DAO first and playing it 11 times compared to DA2's 3 times and DAI's 4 times. I must be a new fan then.
Thank you for telling me I don't "understand" a game, wow you are so knowledgeable! People like you are the reason the AAA industry keeps getting better and better!
Also I'm certain Bioware will still exist next year instead of going bankrupt, you are the best bro!
Thank you! I try my best to be knowledgeable.
You're stuck in the past ,da hasn't been a cepg action hybrid in almost 20 years,adapt and try to enjoy what you have or cry like a girl.
@@Knight1029 Telling people they don't understand a thing just because they don't like generic action gameplay is the peak of arrogance. You don't get to tell me what I do or do not like.
Each game has changed the gameplay, but going from 2 to Inquisition was like night to day, especially with the dumbing down of healing.
Thirdly, if you honestly think DA2 combat was more stylized and asymmetrical... did YOU play DA2? I played DA2 with all three classes, and that is NOT how it went down. If you are just clicking and attacking for five minutes, you're playing it wrong.
@@Adanu191 I was referring to story, world and characters more than gameplay. In terms of gameplay I think DAO fans understand it well.
DA2 is asymmetrical and stylized. You have a lot of fast and impactful movement. Fenris can swing around a greatsword like it's nothing. The enemies have huge health bars but low health while the player has the inverse. It is pretty asymmetrical.
@@Knight1029 I guess we both have different definitions of this and will have to agree to disagree.
The point is that is was never that great a series in the first place . The first game was good , but it almost feels seperate from the other 2 which were ok in their own right but not fantastic games. The RPG elements of the original seem to be totally gone. DA 4 all i can say is fingers crossed.
I don't agree with that. I think its a pretty great series. Sure there are inconsistencies but overall I think the games are pretty good.
this video title should be that " I Don't Understand Dragon Age Origins "
I don't think so.
@@Knight1029 I WATCH FULL VIDEO, exactly KNOW WHAT YOU THINK
@@swaruppal8410 Then tell me what I think?
@@Knight1029 YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT KNOW THINKING, THAT EXPLAIN THE VIDEO MORE.
@@Knight1029 ONE GAME IS LIKE Baldur's GATE AND ANOTHER GAME IS LIKE GENSHIN IMPACT. YOU SAY THEY ARE THE SAME THING,
I never played DAO but I loved DA2 and DAI but DAVG looks terrible.
What do you think about the gameplay reveal?
@@Knight1029 I don't like anything I've seen so far. I might try it but there is evidence of DEI and other stuff already so I'm probably not gonna get it. Atm I'm gonna wait and see.
@@MarineCARMINE I don't know man. It doesn't look bad and I have no idea what you mean by DEI.
Well in out defense we were paid a good amount of gold for a super poor elf ..... to let him have the female elf for the night i worder could we take the gold then take the our women back
I have no idea what your saying but I am inclined to agree.
@@Knight1029 you mention the city elf part we can allow the guy to have our women for gold in the chest .... Never checked if we get the gold in the chest then kill him
@@robert23456789 Looking it up you can't do that. You either have to take his offer or refuse it. You can't take do both. Which kinda sucks. Cause it feels like you should be able to do both.
Anyways I still agree with your original comment.
@@Knight1029 well at I got 5 gold out of it think thats what he pays maybe if give her 3 gold out of it she would be less pissed
@@robert23456789 I am not sure about that. I would seem a bit upset as well.
good vid
Thank you!
If you as a developer want a game in a series to be successful you can't say " well we don't want the people who played the original game .So we can just tell them to go away and get the others. Margins are thin. If you as a developer say you don't want all the fans and want to exclude a certain group then you are playing with fire. You need all the fans not just the yes men kind, You need the critics on your side as well.
This is assuming all Origins fans are the same. My first Dragon Age game was Origins. I played it eleven times. More than any Dragon Age game. And I feel like Bioware has still catered to me. Not in gameplay but in stuff like story, characters and world.
I heavily disagree Origins "needs" all the back and forth in the Fade. Skip the Fade mod is absolutely essential on repeat playthrouhs. It still keeps the important parts (individual companion nightmares), just skips the pointless ludicrous maze section.
I also think the damn reveal trailer for DAVe was really badly done, and completely missed the mark with everything, the gameplay reveal looked way better. But the reveal trailer has the character looks downright weird to ugly (especially the thumbnail qunari)
Without the gameplay reveal, I think I would have been way more pessimistic about the game.
I think the very important and defining aspect of the series should be there. The Fade isn't just this random thing. It's literally where all magic comes from and where demons come from. Going there is important.
I think the reveal trailer is fine. But yeah the gameplay reveal looks a lot better.
@Knight1029 I agree with the Fade as an important concept, but in Origins the level is just annoying to go through, kills the momentum you have of going through the Tower, and I would argue does not add anything to the "lore" of the Fade, as there really isn't any story outside of the Nightmares (which the mod preserves)
I think any player should play it at least once, yes, but on repeat playthroughs, it is just annoying.
DA2 and DAI has Fade levels that are much better paced and designed overall.
@@Ariescz I don't think the Fade in DAO is incredible level design or fits in the story. I remember clearly how slow it felt. But just because it is like that doesn't mean I get skipping it. The Fade still has so many lore and codex entries in it. It also provides a basis on how demons try to manipulate people.
At least we can agree on that. I think everyone should experience it at least once.
Oh, definitely. The Fades in DA2 and DAI are much better.
The switch to a full ARPG was a mistake.
They were following trends, not being themselves.
ARPGs are sweaty games man,origins is a story and world first game.
Inquisition is a good game, but it's not much if a Dragonage. The third Dragonage should've been about the next blight, with multiple dragons and a new larger force of grey wardens, theie should have been more expansion on the magic system. Instead inquisition sidelined the wardens and made the universe feel as deep as an episode of rick and morty.
I do agree that Bioware's biggest issues are not being themselves. We saw this to its logical conclusion with Anthem being the most not Bioware game. If Bioware stuck to what they are they would have craved themselves out their own niche and supporters. But to do EA and industry demands at the time this didn't happen.
I don't know. I don't think DAI should have been about the sixth Blight. The appeal of the Dragon Age series is that they can use the setting for many different types of stories. I do think though the series should end with the Blights. A sort of closing the loop.
I think the game looks goofy. It's muddled, over-exposed, poorly written dialogue leading trope after cliche after lore ridden member berry. See, what Origins did was be bland enough yet immersive enough to ride a line that allowed you to feel as though you had massive agency over the experience. Did you? It's debatable. But at the very least, the illusion was there. These stories lack even that. Almost all agency has been removed for you, it's more akin to a virtual story-book than it is an RTS or ARPG imo.
On top of that, it's not dark or interesting or even evocative. It's just one pseudo-saturated pallet after another being driven more by the engine itself more-so than any detail or caricature of art. It is a soulless husk driven by numbers and aggregate insularity instead of anything resembling heart or character. Take away what you will from Origins or its fans. That game allowed you to dream, to become the hero of the Blight. To earn that right. This just..gives it to you in a ticket and tells you to get on the ride, enjoy the scenery made of plastic, dread dreams and the detritus of what once was.
How does the newer games not do that? Explain to me?
@Knight1029 in Da2, no matter what you do, the story ends the same. In Dai, no matter what you do, the story ends the same. It's like in BBT when Amy kills Raiders of the lost ark for Sheldon. You don't need to be there in Dai or da2. It doesn't matter. You're just a spectator. This game, judging by how curated everything is, how little they want to show, how even more on rails than Dai the intro is, is going to give you a message and another story that you don't need to be a part of.
In Origins, the dragon dies no matter what, but you control everything else. Anders could've been taken down or talked down in Origins, with those devs. Solas the same, with a bevy of options. I see nothing in this game nor the devs exposure that leads me to believe my story matters anymore, only their messages and story do. That's why Dao will always be better no matter what genre laiden veneer you lay over the top of this new game.
@@buddylord3020 so the newer games don't do what DAO does because it doesn't allow you to control other things? What about selling Fenris into slavery or giving Isabella to the qunari? What about deciding to give Vivienne fake material for her quest instead of the real thing. Or helping Cullen with the lyrium addiction? How about deciding if the Mages or Templars should work alongside the Inquisition or be subservient to them. Are those not things the player can control?
@@Knight1029 I think you either don't understand what I'm saying or are willingly disregarding the truth. Either way, I am playing smt Vengeance right now. I hope you have a great day
@@buddylord3020 I don't understand what your saying. That's my confusion.
But okay. I hope you enjoy the game. Thank you for chatting with me.
Dragon Age Origins was peak Dragon Age. The world was still fresh the original story was gripping, the main story took a heroic tone (although it gave you the freedom to be an absolute bastard) that you could resolve in various ways to satisfy all inclinations, be they grimdark, tragic, bittesweet, or even a good old happy ending. The lore of the setting was incredible and there was a lot of potential to take it somewhere very nice. 10/10
DA2 was still a very nice game (hot take, I know), the lore was kept mostly intact, companions were GREAT, loved Aveline, Varric and Bethany in particular, the main storyline was relatable, because being a poor nobody trying to make it in a world of chaos is strangely relatable to many of us.
The game just wanted to tell a story within the setting, respecting the worldbuilding and the lore of the setting by and large.
There were artistic mistakes here, I really dislike what the Qunari ended up looking like, I also hated the direction they took with elven aesthetics.
The ending was nowhere near as divergent or satisfying as in origins though, we didn't even get a proper epilogue like back in Origins, you basically just sided with the templars or the mages. On the other hand the DLC were some of the best fun, and they always put in the effort to gave the companions their own lives.
Combat was a hit or miss, you either loved it or hated it. I was okay with it, although I was very disappointed how you got like 2-3 active skills / skill tree.
8/10. I love this game and I still regularly return to it.
DA:I is absolute trash, the combat was trash, the storyline was trash, the UI was trash, skill-trees were trash, the lore was ruined, and the only thing the game had going for it was really cool party banter and memorable companions and decent graphics. All in all, Dragon Age 2 is a better game then Inquisition could ever hope to be. If you don't understand why I think DA:I ruined dragon age, then either you didn't play the game, or you are the kind of person who doesn't have the ability to recognize quality, and you will just eat up any and all slop that they pour into your trough. DA:I decided to fundamentally alter the direction the setting originally took and ever since then, Dragon Age is just an undead husk, animated by the spirit of shitty writing. I lost any and all hope for the setting here and decided never to pay a single cent for any DA related products anymore. 5/10, but only because the music and the artistic decisions were rather cool.
DA:V already lost me at the gameplay trailer. You can clearly see the yassification of the setting, and the writing is sub-par just based on the first 20 minutes. Whatever happens in DA:V I guarantee you that it's going to be a dime a dozen story about muh oppression, and basically a re-hash of the main plot of DA:I, except the big bad evil guy is now not a DarkSpawn Magister, but 3 elven gods. But it's going to be exactly the same themes. I will NOT pay for this game, and I will watch the story unfold on youtube instead. If I'm wrong about this game (I won't be, game developers are simply uncapable of creating anything fresh and original anymore, by and large.) I will consider buying it.
The only issue I have with the later games is the lack of a consistent look and gameplay. My only other complaint would be that DAI's open worlds weren't great and that Corpheyus should have been more prominent.
Other than that I think the games are fine. Sure I am not a huge fan of the gameplay shift in DAV but I still think it will be fine.
DA2 doesn't retcon, mostly, because the game is irrelevant as a sequel. It's a standalone story. The Red Lyrium crap has no place in the story.
@@Knight1029 "Sure I am not a huge fan of the gameplay shift in DAV but I still think it will be fine."
I think you're what Asmongold calls a shit-eater.
@@IgnoreMeImWrong What? My man can you not understand the concept of liking something but having issues with it? Like I can understand how BG3's gameplay is great even if I don't like it.
@@Knight1029 I think it is you who doesn't understand the concept of disliking something and having issues with it :D
To Fortnite looking, and to silly and full of jokes.
Gonna put a cap on the series at inquisition and shelve it.
Okay. I don't really agree but if you want to that then that's cool.
@@Knight1029 It’s cool you buy it too, if OG players have to watch the book on what made the series great close that’s fine.
It’s no different than the OG Star Wars handing off the baton to…something we have today.
@@ashtonsoulfire I have no idea what your saying. What am I buying exactly?
@@Knight1029
Alright, let me clarify my analogy. By 'buying it,' I meant accepting or going along with this change. Whether or not you actually purchase the product is beside the point. What’s concerning is the acceptance of a shift that undermines what originally made the series great.
Let's not play this game. You understand I’m talking about the decline in quality. The analogy was clear: like modern Star Wars deviating from its roots, this change disregards what made the series great. Your acceptance is essentially endorsing that decline.
@@ashtonsoulfire that is true. I guess I am accepting the shift of it in an implicit sense. Though I don't think the shift is happening to the very core of Dragon Age. Sure the gameplay and looks are different but the core isn't, in my eyes at least.
Sure the newer movies aren't great but I think the Dragon Age games are fine.
I'm a fan of DA:O and the DA:TTRPG.
After that, everything went to shite and had no appeal to me, simple as.
The reasons are many.
Care to give those reasons?