Why I don't believe in ELECTRIC or HYBRID for long-distance sailing - SwT 170 - MY HONEST OPINION
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- Опубліковано 23 січ 2024
- In this video, I share why I believe a fully ELECTRIC is not a good idea for long-distance sailing. It's as I see it unrealistic and unsafe.
I'm also explaining why I mean a HYBRID solution only is a
IMAGINARY GREEN SOLUTION. The reality is that a hybrid solution end of the day only is a crazy expensive and complicated diesel solution, that is not as environmentally friendly as you might think. The most funny part of a Hybrid solution is that the one thing aboard my boat that I really would like to get rid of, is the same that will be the most critical component in a Hybrid solution. I am talking about the generator. A diesel generator is the way to go if you like to make things complicated, unreliable, and expensive. Knowing that you will depend 100% on a machine that will fail more than you can imagine, and you will still burn more diesel than you think should put some warning lights on.
In this video, I have used images and calculations from Oceanvolt. A company I believe has the best solutions today, but unfortunately, I still believe that before batteries and electric solutions are even within a range of safety and economics there will be new and better technology competing these solutions. From my point of view, a fully electric should not get a CE class A certification. A stands for offshore sailing, or blue water if you like.
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ABOUT THIS CHANNEL:
Sailing around the world in a Bavaria 55 Cruiser, making videos whenever we have time for it.
Even though this is season 6 on UA-cam I did not make that many videos in the beginning. Before full-time sailing, I sailed several seasons in the Mediterranean before, and obviously also in Scandinavia. I have been traveling the world before and have also been an active regatta sailor. I had my first sailboat at age 7 and have been sailing ever since. Also, more than 10 years of experience in Search and Rescue at sea in Norway.
PLEASE BE KIND IN THE COMMENTS!
I'm just a normal person sharing my travel adventure through my eyes and experience from my perspective! Remember how I do things that might work for me but not for you. It might even not be the correct way to do things, and I don't have the blueprint either. I'm not perfect and nobody is. The day I believe I know it all and don't think I can learn new things I should go ashore.
This is a sailor doing UA-cam, not a UA-camr out sailing.
Good stuff Thomas, you made me come to a conclusion for my next boat.
It's good info but he only mentioned the "series hybrid" option. Look into "parallel hybrid" as an alternative. it's the best of all worlds.
I don’t comment very much, but this I will say this is why this channel is my favorite of them all. Thomas is a very knowledgeable sailor, in seamanship and technical. I always look forward to new episodes knowing I will learn more about sailing. Thanks for sharing Thomas 💪🏽🫶🏽🤙🏽
Very well said! I completely agree 😇👍🏽
I do t sea how is he knowledgeable then he never haved an electric. Also what he is talking make no sense at all. Totaly mialiding information. Look sailing Vagabond. I met then in culatra portugal. They also was against alectric engine. Look them now. Proud of the electric engine.
I haven't watched recent La Vagabond episodes, but the last one I saw, he was afraid of getting into trouble with only an electric engine, as his diesel engine was getting replaced. That is inspite of having a very fast boat that would optimize hydrogeneration. I'm interested in how they and sailing with the wynns do long term.@@SailingTerra
Outstanding explanation Thomas, thank you. I laughed when you said I might as well paint my boat Green, 🤣😂🤣😂🤣.
This is an absolutely EXCELLENT film Thomas. This film alone deserves to bring in MANY subs. So well done. Thank you.
Thanks for separating the illusion of being “green” from the realistic needs of managing risk at sea.
After sailing half way around the world I agree completely. We are now in Thailand and motor sailing is a part of life in this part of the world. Sailing Aquarius just lost their masts crossing the Atlantic and still have 1000 miles to get to safely. They just received 260ltrs of diesel so now they can reach Martinique. Imagine trying to get battery power dropped off so your electric motor can get you to safety!
🤣
Well yeah that would be the counter to it, you dont need a delivery lol. good point. If you cant get the delivery, you are screwed if you have fossil fuel only. I didnt even think about that.
Yeah but Diesel will give you Electrical Power, you got the Sun, you got the Wind. Do you have the Imagination?
There is a minor flaw in you're argument @@JoeKyser when the mast comes down it is highly likely that your solar is going to get bashed up, and where does this leave you ?
@@nooneswedish5142 Very few sailboats have their solar panels attached to the mast.
Best part about Thomas, he calls it like he believes it, even when it comes to his preference in equipment. Don’t change or ever apologize. Anyone who gives you a hard time for giving your expertise is foolish! Don’t change. Love your videos.
The evidence of life is change!! If you don't welcome it you'll be fighting a loosing battle!!
En meget god og realistisk gjennomgang.
As an electrical engineer, I concur. My long distance sails are only 1200nm but it doesn’t take long for conditions to become a problem. Thank you for doing this well informed video.
Good to hear the voice of reason, regarding an auxiliary engine as a safety device, rather than a virtue signaling toy.
Hi there Thomas. After living onboard for 25 years, and being a marine engineer. May I draw your attention to Beta marine hybrid diesel engines. This system would solve many of the issues you mention.
Also, I don't think anyone with a hybrid system and a large battery bank would expect to be able to charge their bank from empty to full in ONE day via solar power!
Unrealistic...
I do appreciate your Chanel, and have gained much from you experiences in areas I wish to go in the future.
Best regards. Mark.
I am not a sailor yet, but an automotive engineer. A parallel hybrid system like the beta marine one would be the only viable solution for a sailing yacht in my opinion, if hybrid is wanted. I would argue such a system could even increase safety, because you could still have manuverability by propeller in port/near shore in case of an main engine failure. But I am not sure about the effectiveness of the proposed way of operating it. Because of the losses while charging and depleating a battery there is typically not seen a huge benefit if any in fuel consumption due to increased load on the main engine. At least that is the case in plug-in hybrid cars and why they typically are not operated like this. The main benefits I see in such a system is the ability to generate electricity with the propeller, while sailing independent of fuel and sun. And the reduced noise, so I would use the electric engine while motorsailing mainly 5-8 hours a night to get more comfortable sleep.
Having looked at these there are two problems: firstly price 3 to 4 times price of diesel engine, secondly they are tied up with new builds- no availability for retrofitting.
@benh9928 Benh. The Beta marine hybrid diesel electric is completely able to be retrofitted when replacing ones current diesel.
Fully aware they can be retrofitted, but first you have to be able to get one. They are fully booked for a long time ahead for new builds, at least in Europe, so you can't get one if you wanted to
@@benh9928 In my mind that means a lot. Customers must be very pleased with their equipment.
Great video Thomas, with your background your opinion on safety is always well founded and appreciated, it’s easy to get carried along with the flow when your own research and maths would take another path.
After 50 years + sailing I am 100% in agreement with you , 110% , Green offshore sailing is a myth , Im even very hesitant on any batteries that are not gel sealed proven old school , Good Bulmer alternator & as you have there a Honda Gen. for those times when you need a bit extra > Power tools ,Water Maker or just a charge up for freezers Etc. Reality is hard for dreamers ,Now plastics ???? & Dont get me started on Pandas , They make good mooring blocks .
Sailing was “green” for centuries.
Thomas, I love your honest approach. This video is BRILLIANT. Honesty that stepped on toes, which is backed up by ocean crossing data, is necessary to drive home your message. The problems the sailing channels who have gone this route are experiencing is only the tip of the iceberg. I enjoyed the humor, too. Thank you for sharing.
Very interesting and quite eye opening 👁️👁️! Thnx Thomas for staying to your own truth and standards 🙏🏽
Thank you my friend 🙏🏻 Happy to know you enjoyed this slightly on the side video. Thank you for being here! Cheers 🍻
In my opinion it’s totally about sailing with a mindset on security.
Great video Thomas. I appreciate you share your honest opinions about things you have experienced your self. I'm glad I sail a much smaller boat that I love to keep as loyal as possible to KISS. I also for the moment do pretty much only coastal sailing around Denmark, Sweden, Norway. Although my dream is to sail the pacific, the fact of 210 rain days a year...hmmmm. Yes, the temperatures area high down there even when it is raining compares to what we have here in Scandinavia. But as you must know your self, we have amazing cruising grounds in Scandinavia which I intend to explore more in the coming years. Sail safe
Yes it rains nearly every day in the tropics, but only a short time in the afternoon, the rest of the day will be sunny or lightly clouded.
No green boat for me. I am an electric engineer and l hve been working as an electrician since l was 15 year. I am 3. generation and l am now 67 years old. I totaly agree with you Thomas. Beste hilsner fra Sandefjord, Terje Bjørge
That was a gutsy and detailed discussion. I applaud your through research and effective use of graphics.
Since I'm old and old-school, you won't be surprised that I, over 45 years of owning a sloop and cruising,
never could see the practicality of the " green solution". So, I use a little dinosaur squeezings; far less that my friends on trawlers use on a typical cruise.
You should be on international television...Brilliant !!!
Finally somebody simply adds up the numbers. Thank you for drawing the conclusions that follow from a day to day perspective.
Love your research to back up what you think,and electric or hybrid is not reliable or powerful enough when you need it the most.I watch spoondrifters and it is a solar-hybrid electric powered 46 foot Morgan.They go 3 knots at best when it’s dead calm with no wind or current they run a diesel generator that’s about 8 kw to power the electric propulsion motor.They also run a Honda gas generator sometimes.They have had so many problems with this system including almost catching on fire.The electric motor will run hot and it’s always something wrong with the system.Your video was totally accurate with the data to back it up.I grew up building boats with my dad and have built commercial shrimp boats for myself so understand what works and what doesn’t too.A reliable diesel is priceless in bad weather even at anchor and on passages.l would like your honest opinion of Panda Fisher generators………😂😂.Hope everyone will watch this valuable video and change their ideas and opinions on electric/hybrid propulsion.Great as always Thomas 👍👍👍👍👍👍💯😊
Meget realistisk og god gjennomgang som virkelig setter ting i perspektiv , fra deg som er på tur er dette meget troverdig i motsetning til grafene fra leverandører av helelektriske løsninger, god tur videre , stay safe and fair winds ! :-)
You have done an excellent analysis and I agree fully with you. For as much as we would like it to be, the electric option is not good. Those you promote electric boats are somewhat biased and did not experienced what you did. Thanks and good continuation of your trip.
Richard
Diesel electric locomotives are a thing. He's complaining about a diesel generator while relying on a diesel engine. Both require a lot of TLC. An electric system, on the other hand, requires the occasional dusting (and a reasonable Faraday cage). Also, you don't replace diesel with batteries, solar, or wind. If you need to run long and hard I would think you would need a lot of diesel and a good generator and/or enough wind and sun to provide power from solar and regen, enough batteries to take it, and an electric motor to ensure a minimum speed.
Hi, thanks for your honest opinion, this obsession with going green put safety at risk. The diesel is the way to go but better design one need to be put forward like the diesel with opposed pistons with 2 crankshaft that generate more than 50% efficiency. Electric motors are good to go to remote protected areas, just imagine getting a lighting strike on your sailboat and having all of it going literally up in smoke! You sure going to be green , ya green with envy with your neighbor running his DIESEL!!!
Your Scandinavian neighbour Mads from Sail Life channel, had pretty much same experience with Fisher Panda, as you. Failure after failure and worst part, their support sucks.
Thanks for the good, honest and instructional video Thomas, keep up a good work!
Nicely put Thomas. 👌
Our boat came with a Fisher Panda and I tried trading it in for a Northern Lights. They explained me I had to pay full price on the Northern Lights plus extra for removal of the Fisher Panda! I did and never had trouble again with the Northern Lights 👍
Thanks Thomas, for your clear and honest explanation!
Glad to see someone else has my concerns about this new trend. I believe it only end in tears. 👍
Really appreciate the honest comparison...👍
Thank you for your honesty and sharing your experience.
Så bra Thomas!
Äntligen någon som talar klarspråk! 😊
Good points :-) . Have you considered upgrading your engine alternator? It requires a regulator, heat management etc. , but Lithium can be charged with a lot of Amps.
In the future, it can probably run as a motor, so you can use electric as a backup :-)
You are 100% right
I appreciate your perspective here. Take care Thomas. Cheers 🍻 🌴⛵️🌞
Totally agree!!Good video!!
Thanks for breaking it down, Thomas. Very interesting and informative.
Excellent honest assessment thank you
I agree with you 100% based on your examples.
Thomas, That was so very good. I've been trying to justify going "green" ie electric propulsion on my boat, and I have reached the same conclusion as yourself. its complicated, expensive and dangerously limited range. I will rather repower my classic Passport 40 with a basic but modern Beta Diesel engine. Thank you for confirming my conclusions!
Great insights @SailingwithThomas I’ve been binge watching all of your videos. I really enjoyed this one because you gave practical insights into something I have been weighing for a while. Cheers 😇👍🏽
Thank you for your honest opinions. Very informative.
thanks for a great explanation. Have now shelved the thoughts of an all electric boat.
You answered a lot of my questions. Thank you
These basic, practical observations apply to “green solutions” in many other contexts outside of sailing, as well. It will just take time for this to be widely recognized despite our feelings.
100 % TRUTH! Finally. Well presented, Thank you Thomas
I do appreciate your honesty, but what I love is your humor! I worry about those people who without a thought, much less any research actually went with these “green” policies on the word of politicians, who have absolutely no knowledge of engines, fossil fuels or even Electricity!!! Personally, I think they only “pull” for the Industry that’s making HUGE donations to them…..It doesn’t seem to matter whether it actually “works”, or is financially feasible if it’s “possible”. I can’t imagine needing to “move” with no wind, dead batteries and no chance of SUNSHINE….. In my world, that would be like sitting on the side of the road in a “electric” truck pulling four horses, with a “dead”battery, and waiting on a Tornado that’s coming up that same road, the path of least resistance . 🍀
You speak the truth. No doubt about it. Thank you.
Hi Thomas, I’m 100% with you like these cars that are electric. They seem to have a lot of problems and you imagine being out in the ocean and relying on something that is going wrong maybe in some years to come with all the technology that they going to throw into it they might be okay. Even these hybrid I still don’t believe as good as they say they are. I looked at a four-wheel-drive. And they have a hybrid motor I suppose I don’t know enough about them but I just don’t trust them putting petrol in or diesel in and you know what you exactly got. Anyway keep up the good work Thomas love your videos Cliff from Logan City Queensland Australia 🇦🇺
Great information, thank you for sharing
Your best Video ever, Thank you Thomas
Spot on & precisely correct 👍
Very good expose….i began ignoring the electric influencers long ago. The Panda? Two cruiser friends yanked and tossed their Panda….thanks, Takk! Andrew
Veldig bra Thomas. Jeg holder meg til vakre Norske kysten. And keeping it simple 😎👨🏼✈️
Thank you for your insight, really appreiated, is always good to recicved an alternelt view,. Again, thank you very much.
Great video that makes so much sense. 👍
Thanks. Appreciated.
Your boat looks like great for the ocean. I like your channel.😊
Thanks so informative
Great Video thanks for all the information.
Great analysis!!!
It's very, very hard to beat the energy density of cost efficiency of diesel fuel. The closest I've found is sails.
How would you assess Sailing Uma? They are smaller, but they seem to be managing an electric solution? And yes, your honest approach is much appreciated!
Good info Thomas!!
Thomas, look into solutions like beta marine/ hybrid marine ( like in Tally Ho Episode 115) that is REAL hybrid, good for open ocean😊
We are watching & we are with you Thomas! Strong Ship with strong Norwegian at the helm! Stay safe!
A lot of useful information. I would say no due to the lightning alone. The cost to replace all the electronics, even with a redundant isolator setup. Which might not work as intended. Lightning being lightning and all. Great video thank you for sharing your thoughts!
Utmärkt video Thomas 😁
Hi Thomas. Thank you for taking us with you on your travels. I have been following you since you bought Be Free in the Med and it has been a great journey. Glad to see you made it out of the Carribean and into the Pacific :)
You bring up a lot of good points in both this and the other videos you have made on rigging and generators as well as of cause this one on 'green solutions'. I for one totally agree with you on your view of an electric propulsion solution to cover offshore sailing. I would very much like not to stuck in the middle of a storm and not be able to get out of the way because my battery bank is depleted.
I would like to make a suggestion on a future episode if I could. I think it could be interesting to hear your thoughts on insurance. I would assume that your insurance company have changed a couple of times between the Med, your Atlantic crossing, Carribean and now the Pacific. What are your thoughts on the location (country) of your insurance company, governing laws should you need to file a claim, level of coverage, etc?
Look forward to the next time.
I'm 100 % agree with you man, good explanation of the systems.
Well said Professor. Fair Winds 😎
Great info!
Personally, I trust your opinion based on experience .. Thank you for sharing Thomas ..!!
So true! THX Thomas
Something not considered by most is prevailing wind and which way the boat will face relative to the panels and sun. For instance in the san blas islands you are mostly facing north. This means that you will have only half the panels getting sun in the morning and late afternoon and only usable amounts if you can tilt them. You only fire on all panels mid day for a few hours. You may get little or no exposure if the tide, current, or wind conspire against you when you anchor or are under way.
Perfect 👍
Jeg laerer Norsk og elsker botan. Takk hvor videoen :)
Excellent!!!!!!!!!
Awesome episode one of the best dead on the money hilarious comment about painting the boat green so true thank you
Thomas what a great video. One of the reasons I like your Chanel is the experience, knowledge and no nonsense approach that you bring to the table. I would be very interested in your view on the Beta marine diesel hybrid solution? They also have a Yanmar option as well. TO me it seems to tick all the box's but would love to hear your thoughts.
Excellent presentation with great (and often not included) documentation/facts to back up your well reasoned assertions. I agree that generators are not very useful or reliable and a two alternator setup on your Diesel drive system is much more reliable and effective. Also the redundancy of a dual Alternator system is a safety issue.
Yes sir you are totally correct. Electric battery supply for sailing so not good. Even for auto's it's a fools errand. Thanks for this video.
Very good advice. I suppose some people could come up with a case for a diesel and an electric system on one boat. The diesel engine can run as a generator if need be and that electric system is going to be really nice when your around other boats enjoying their moorings etc.
Super video.
Very good information about the reality of solar generation and the cost of the batteries.
Even if you add a couple wind generators an electric motor draws too much power.
Solar panels and wind generators are great for charging the batteries for radios and navigation.
I just watched a video about an older famous British sailor (Jimmy ?) who had a nice catamaran built for the Elcano Challenge but crossing the Atlantic he realized it would not work, just as you said, he can't recharge the batteries as fast as they drain.
The obvious answer is to use less electrical power.
One way is to sit and wait for the batteries to charge up and the other way is to have a diesel engine.
Awesome video, 5 Stars 🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟
Fanastic episode Thomas. We are just about pick up our new cat in France. This was a major discussion during the spec stage. We opted to stay with diesel after much discussion with people who knew more than me. Only bummer is we put in a Fischer Panda generator. Lets hope they have improved.
Did it again my friend, super video 👍
On a smaller scale, I've come to similar conclusions about batteries and solar panels. In building a small camper to pull behind my wife's Subaru outback wagon, I started with a deep cycle marine battery and hoped to charge it with a solar panel. The few lights were LED, we had a small chest refrigerator and a ceiling vent fan that we didn't need often, because we insulated the camper well. The battery was inadequate and took too long to recharge from the solar panel. I ran a wire from the car to camper to charge the battery from the Subaru alternator as we traveled, and actually had to run the engine when camped on occasion to charge the battery. Upgrading to a lithium battery solved most of the problems for the camper.
Now I'm planning to reimagine a small sailboat for lake or coastal sailing (to teach my grandsons to sail - that's my excuse, and I'm sticking to it). I hate the noise of gasoline outboard motors, and they can be cantankerous when trying to start them, so I have decided on a small electric outboard, adequate to move the small boat when there is no wind and I simply must move, with a removable battery (that floats if I drop it in the water). The motor is designed to recharge the battery through the propeller when under sail - how effective that will be, I'll have to learn. And I'll carry a sculling oar for when the wind dies and the battery is discharged (or buy a second battery) for those occasions when I simply must move the boat).
This is my first time to see one of your videos, and I enjoyed it.
Excellent analysis Thomas..😅..I agree. There is no substitute to cubic capacity of a diesel engine and fuel storage.I hope you went north to avoid Cyclone Kirrily.Best regards and a safe passage.
Thank you
That was a great presentation and I I agree with you 100%
Hey Thomas.
I certainly appreciate the strong safety aspect of your video. We have just bought our new (to us) mono and all those issues are front of mind. Living in Australia solar is a big part of our lives, but we can’t currently be completely green. I’d love to, especially if it were cheaper too.
We expect we will upgrade our arch to take a lot more than just a single old panel, but I can’t see the reliable nanni diesel being replaced in my lifetime.
We have just traded a camping lifestyle, towing 2 tonnes of camper with 2.2 tonnes of vehicle and I can tell you honestly that the fuel consumption is crazy. I wish we had electric or hydrogen cars to tow this weight. They don’t exist yet. Towing halves fuel economy to about 20 litres diesel per 100km. Even worse going uphill.
So in our new environment we use 2 litres per hour with basically every Aussie farmer’s tractor engine, with cheap parts everywhere.
Our fallback, if we need one, is a small Kubota generator and extra Jerry cans in the deck. I don’t know if we even need that, until we are doing ocean passages, and I don’t know if we ever will.
Great video. Lots of useful information. I was always curious about the cost of full electric, guess I wil shelve that idea until some new technology comes along. But I will look for a Honda generator!!!
Thank you for the insight and the effort of making a good video. Be FREE.
You have lived it Thomas, speak your truth!
Thx, Thomas
Sound sensible thinking 👍
Plukky needs to watch this,he is doing the elcano challenge fully electric catamaran building at the moment.
Thank you Thomas very informative this episode ,safe sailing,oh just a thought what is your planning with the Indian Ocean are you going around Afrika?
Sailing Doodles is going full electric
@@franksmith137 true?that guy is so busy buying and selling boats I can’t keep up with him,when Plukky had the lightning strike it welded the gearbox gears together,imagine an electric motor.
Tack Thomas för en mycket bra förklaring av de olika systemen. God fortsättning på din segling