Bad Dads | DADDIES IN FILM PART 1
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- Опубліковано 30 вер 2024
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CONTENT WARNING: Discussions of child abuse
BIG SPOILERS: Infinity War, Captain America: Civil War, Man of Steel, Batman v Superman
Part 1 of a 2 part (so far) series on how daddies and authority are represented in film. Part 2 on Nebula: nebula.tv/vide...
More FILM ANALYSIS vids in handy playlist form: • Maggie Does Media Anal...
/ maggiemaefish
/ maggiemaefish
/ maggiemaefish
Movies Referenced:
Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Rings (2001) dir. Peter Jackson
What Ever Happened To Baby Jane? (1962) dir. Robert Aldrich
Alien (1979) dir. Ridley Scott
Guardians of the Galaxy 2 (2017) dir. James Gunn
Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017) dir. Ryan Johnson
Man of Steel (2013) dir. Zack Snyder
Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back (1980) dir. Irvin Kershner
Taken (2008) dir. Pierre Morel
Deathwish (2018) dir. Eli Roth
Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone (2001) dir. Chris Columbus
Rogue One (2016) dir. Gareth Edwards
Captain America: Civil War (2016) dir. Anthony & Joe Russo
Thor Ragnarok (2017) dir. Taika Waititi
Spiderman (2002) dir. Sam Raimi
Avengers: Infinity War (2018) dir. Anothny & Joe Russo
Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (2016) dir. Zack Snyder
Other Resources:
Still from Supergirl promo materials
"White House news briefing with Sarah Huckabee Sanders" - • White House news brief...
Chadwick Boseman On Bringing Humanity To 'Black Panther' - • Chadwick Boseman On Br...
The Superman Gospel, According to Warner Bros. - www.hollywoodr...
en.wikipedia.o...
The Father by Raphael via Wikiemedia Commons - commons.wikime...
"This is the guy who tried to..." George W. Bush - • "This is the guy who t...
Happy Birthday, President Daddy - • Video
Trump Loves It When Ivanka Calls Him Daddy - • Trump Loves It When Iv...
Marvel's Biggest Baddie Just Wants To Be Your Daddy (Avengers: Infinity War) - • Marvel's Biggest Baddi...
Nyx Fears - My complicated disconnect with Infinity War. - • Video
ContraPoints - Jordan Peterson - • Jordan Peterson | Cont...
On George Bush's allegations that Saddam Hussein tried to get his father: www.commondrea...
"Who is your daddy, and what does he do?"
Our mom says that our dad is a real sex machine.
I traveled back in time, twice, so am my own daddy and mommy, respectively, future science y'all, dont think about it. Also i totally came up with this and have never read a book. No need to google anything.
What's his name?
8:51 Pa Kent's response was Maybe . Because he genuinely doesn't know the answer to the question . Life has moral dilemmas as well which do not have clear cut answers .
Wasting his existence worshipping the orange man and billionaires
The word Daddy has been ruined by the internet and you do not help
5/7 daddy af
The old, "The one who points out racism is the real racist." It's not abusive fathers (or parents) that are the problem, but us talking about it. Out of sight, out of mind.
Sway the Messingwer!
A Republican trait since 1968.... Richard Nixon has SO much to answer for, but his "Southern Strategy" of luring the Bigoted Religious Right Dixiecrats into the Republican Party has got to be a real low even for him.
I am loving your video essays!
Fun fact: Watching Thanos in Infinity War is actually what motivated me to finally leave my abusive mother. The fact that abusers can genuinely believe they love their victim and think they are doing what's best for them is not something that is discussed often.
This is probably the best thing to ever happen as a result of a Marvel movie.
Thanos: "bring me the Time Stone"
Ebony Maw: "yes daddy"
Thanos: "wh- dude, stop calling me that"
I am a father and a high school teacher but also a big Marvel head. One of my students tried to convince me of the whole Thanos was right idea. And I spent a good part of my Cafeteria supervision explaining to her why I disagreed.
One of her contentions was that Thanos loved Gamora and my response was “I have a daughter. You are not going to convince me that Thanos loved Gamora.”
In fact that whole sequence left me aching for a reversal. I wanted Thanos to have failed the test. After all, why do we trust Red Skull all of a sudden? And why have a test of conviction to get the soul stone when a test of compassion makes more sense (at least in my head).
But I can’t think of how such a reversal might be possible now for the simple reason that he didn’t fail. He got the stone. Toxic message be damned.
I also pointed out to her that for a person who is willing to randomly kill half the galaxy, thing you care about most is a low bar to clear.
Wow, what was her response to that?
It stopped that line of conversation and we moved on to my contention that population growth is a constant and how killing half of everyone is a temporary fix and that he would have to keep doing it every 50 years without other changes.
See, I'm a dad too, and what that scene - along with all of the scenes involving Thanos and Gamora - did for me was convince me of how strongly, and wrongly, Thanos feels on that issue.
Have you ever known someone who correctly identifies a problem, but then becomes completely fixated on one solution? That's Thanos. Thanos correctly identified a problem on his home planet. But when he was ridiculed for what he'd found, he solidified his potential solution as the only one possible. Which is a shame, because his solution was super dumb. As you, and many others, have pointed out.
Identifying a problem correctly is not the same as saying your potential solution is correct. But it can be very easy to become fixated on your own solution if people refuse to even accept you were right with identifying the problem, because at that point it becomes easy to dismiss the thoughts of the people who refused to listen to you at all.
We can accept and agree Thanos was wrong and evil, while also accepting that he truly thought he was doing the right thing. He decided he had to "do the hard thing" to "be the hero". It is this monomania that makes him a tragic figure, even as he's a despicable one, because he's not willing to consider another path, or the truth of his actions.
If we accept that he can be both evil and well meaning, then his scenes with Gamora take on a different light. He is being terrible to her, but in his own screwed up way, he is convinced that's he's doing what's best for her. He's trying to make her into someone just like him - someone who's willing to do whatever it takes. Someone willing to accept "hard answers", but in a person like him, it's so easy to convince themselves that anything "easy" is "wrong". He was trying to be a good dad by imprinting on her everything he holds to be true. And while I don't think "sculpting my child to be just like me" is the correct way to handle parenting, it's a depressingly common one.
Does all this make his behavior acceptable? No, I'd say it makes it worse. Personally, I always find evil behavior done in the name of good to be extra-terrible. But it provides a coherent and plausible cause of his behavior towards his film, and explains his emotional reaction at killing her. His favored daughter, who he'd hand-crafted to be as much like him as possible - as much like the most perfect being in the galaxy, that is - had to be sacrificed. But he did it anyway, because it was either that or - in his eyes - sacrifice the entire galaxy. And as much as you or I love our daughters, if you put a button in front of us and say "you can save a 100 trillion lives, or save your daughter", that's a hard choice. A choice we're never likely to see, and a choice Thanoes DOESN'T REALLY HAVE, but thinks he has. And he, as he has built his entire world view around, made the "hard" choice. He chooses sacrifice each and every time, because he's decided that makes an action real. And that's what makes him scary. Because the whole time he beats you, or kills half your family, he's not angry. He's doing it out of love.
And it turns out love doesn't have to be just kittens and rainbows. Sometimes it can be used to justify the worst behavior of all. And I think deciding this isn't "real" love is reductive and dangerous. Just because it's often an excuse doesn't make that always be the case, and a flat rejection of what an enemy says is a dangerous thing to do. I think Infinity War makes a strong case that Thanos legitimately loves. Which is why his madness is so tragic, and scary. Someone merely dedicated to power for its own sake isn't nearly as worrying as someone who's fighting for a cause.
For another case of "I have love, but faith my action is correct", please see the story of Abraham and Isaac.
...sorry for the wall there.
This is a pretty weird trend. Though I'd argue that the MCU at least understands that its bad dads are bad dads. When Tony loses it in Civil War, he specifically says it's because Bucky killed his mom, who we see in the flashback he was much closer to than his cold, possibly emotionally abusive dad. Then Gamorra straight up says to Thanos what you said: "This isn't love." And Lindsay Ellis has a great video on how GotG2 doesn't apologize for Yondu's abusiveness, but is instead about how a child's relationship with an abusive parent can be extremely complicated.
Though at the same time, Odin is presented as the good and wise daddy to the end when he was a really bad dad to all three of his kids.
I look forward to part 2, which I hope will be about Good Dads.
Yeah, MCU is like... ALMOST effective at portraying dads/parents in an interesting way. I think there's some merit to the "he killed my mom" Tony Stark thing, but still, the characterization of the mom isn't really there. I think in that one flashback/recreation scene, Tony even mentions that that interaction never actually happened. So it's like one more step removed from reality.
And Lindsay's video was great!
If the theme of Avengers 3 and 4 is balance then Avengers 4 will have to be about something that reverses the negativity of Infinity War. Personally I'm thinking it might be about moms.... Captain Marvel's supposed to be the key character to save everyone. I dunno if she's a mother though.... so maybe that doesn't apply.
Gotg 2 agnoledges that th complex relationship of having a father who is a slightly abusive(but caring) space pirate or a supervillain. The side of your father that reflects negativ on you snd makes you question youself. Like in real lie. Plus i think bucky under mindcontrol killed tonys mum too.
Although Gamora does say 'This isn't love', the movie still treats it like it *is* (the sappy music whilst murdering her and validating it with the soul stone) which completely undermines that point. I think the MCU's handling of dads is... inconsistent at best, unfortunately, but there is at least some nuance (on the whole). And Linday's video is fucking awesome.
Madeline Van Dongen - Yeah, the fact that he's rewarded with the Soul Stone is an issue. I could argue that because it's vaguely defined movie magic, it didn't actually require real love, just that Thanos truly believe what he felt was love, but I can't really substantiate that reading with anything in the movie.
I'm hoping that Avengers 4 reveals that this is the key to defeating Thanos and undoing everything, that the Soul Stone is corrupted in some way because he didn't truly love her. But since I've considered that, it probably won't happen.
"Talk lies to me mommy" is the best thing I've ever heard.
It turned me on. It deeply turned me on. I have no idea why.
I think Maggie is super-amazing! (But it hurts real bad in my heart area.)
I'm gonna start using "save martha" as a salutation!
I've tried to start a trend where......when someone BURPS....you say "AMEN!"..... and when someone farts you say "AMEN!" cuz those sounds are evil escaping your body I'm told.
"God Bless You" each time a person burps or farts would work too.
(OUCH: I love how maggie MOCKS RELIGION so much! ARGH! Girl of my dreams!!!!!! OW OW OW!!)
Did the universe REALLY confirm that Thanos actually loved Gamora? Or did it just confirm that he THINKS he loves her? I took the qualifier for the "sacrifice" as just someone that meant a lot to them, not specifically genuinely loved.
I have a feeling that in the next Avengers movie, we might learn that the situation was rigged or whatever. But obviously that's speculation or retconning, so it's not really valid to argue. I'm HOPING they retcon it, but as far as we can tell, from what the movie tells/shows us, the universe is saying he *DOES* love her. And to a kid sitting in a theater, that's all they'll get from it. Waiting a year to find out "oh, just kidding; he doesn't love her" is... meh. In fact, if they HAD included a few lines about how messed up that scene is, it would've been great! It would've complicated the narrative in a really cool way. But alas. Also, I really did like the movie, so it was even more of a bummer. Whereas Man of Steel is like... lol.
Well, there IS that line BY Gamora of her saying "this isn't love", and the fact that she definitely will be coming back gives us a chance for her to tell him off (whether inside the stone or outside) about how messed up his version of "love" is, which won't be as much of a RETcon as it just...con. But you're right that kids are impressionable, so I hope the next movie will clarify this.
Maggie Mae Fish Loving someone does mean you act in their best interest all the time. Thanos loved Gamora but The MAD Titan cant tell the difference between love and abuse. His problem is lack of empathy. I never saw Thanos as a power trip for "daddies" but a warning against toxicity.
Ive known many with children with severe learning difficulties who have suffered parental abuse and have seen many cases of parents who clearly love their children but act abusivily because they want their children to be "normal" and don't understand their needs. Thanos, I would argue, is in a simular situation.
"But I think your missing a point that 'Love' by your sane standard is not the same that abusive and psychopath people use."
I compared Thanos to The Operative from Serenity. They are both willing to do horrible things, because they truly believe they doing the right thing. Thanos abused his kids, because he loved them and really thought he was doing the right thing. That doesn't justify his abuse, but it makes him a whole lot scarier.
I think Infinity War purposely skewed things; Thanos, from the narrative's perspective, is the protagonist, even though his actions, motivations, and philosophy are all pretty capital "E" evil when you really look at them. So, the structure, and even the occurrences like the scene with the soul stone, may have birthed this whole "Thanos was right" meme, but the intent seems to me to be about exposing the negativity and banal "evil" of patriarchy and general hubris. Thanos's greatest sin, to me, is believing himself incapable of being wrong. He literally ravages the galaxy for probably centuries because he couldn't reexamine an idea that involves killing half of everyone.
I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of the Snyder-verse; the best writers focus on the difficulties in moral choices when approaching people with power, and the responsibility of being powerful, where Snyder was... not.
No masters, no gods, no daddies.
I agree. The funny thing, about Thanos, is that he isn't originally abusive towards Gamora in the comics. Her family was killed by the Magus, and she would have died too, but THANOS saved her. Then of course he trained her as a killer and all that, but the most important point remains different from the movie: at the core of their relationship there isn't an act of violence. There is an act of (not genuine, but still) compassion. And I think keeping this element in the movie would have changed it all. Thanos brutally deprives all his children of their families before "adopting" them, but Gamora is the only one he took in with an act of true goodness, of true compassion. And THAT'S why he loves her (and is loved in return by her, deep down).
This would have brought the sacrifice on Vormir on a whole upper level of heartbreaking. Thanos would have realized his madness, at that last moment he would have seen the truth, that Gamora's love is worth more than a million Infinity Stones... but he would have killed her anyway, because he'd also have realized that he is too far gone to turn back now.
I don't know about the Russos, but THIS is what I would call an "empathetic villain". A man that chooses evil while knowing full well what good is. And yet he can't come back anymore.
Darth Vader (another daddy) is just one example of how applying these traits to a character can bring to an iconic and really complex and human villain.
...
About Jonathan Kent... Yeah, Snyder's version is probably a farmer by day and a serial killer by night. After all, in Zack's vision, "Batman could be raped in prison", right?
My God, Snyder. My. God.
The speech after the bus incident could have made sense if it happened after Clark using his powers without real need, without anyone in danger. Then ok, you can say "WTF you alien idiot, I told you not to show off, for your own safety!".
But this... yes, serial killer by night. Definitely.
Except a man who makes decisions that knows is hard is also empathetic not sympathetic like people confused.
save martha
also, never forget to save martha
As a daughter who sat next to her abusive father in the theatre watching Thanos be rewarded for murdering his child, who he supposedly ‘loved’, thank you for calling this out.
Other abusive people didn't feel that way. People react to things differently.
Educate me, Daddy.
The word "daddy" has lost all meaning by the end of this video.
did that word EVER have meaning? at all?
Yeah. Otherwise, why would it be a word in the furst place?
Daddy was something for the child to call their father than showed love for them beyond fear and respect. It showed that the child was comfortable, which is an honor any man would gladly accept. So let the good daddies of the world have their child call them that.
It's officially on my bucket list to make a generic revenge movie called "Murder Daddy."
Thank you, Maggie. Thank you for this inspiration.
#MurderDaddyLives
punisher best daddy
Not to charge in with something totally off topic but one thing I really like about steven universe is their subversion of the “perfect dead mom” trope. Like, thats what rose quartz seems like at first but as more is revealed about her it turns out while she was loving and had good intentions she could also be really selfish and irresponsible and ended up causing a lot of problems that the surviving characters are left behind having to deal with. She has a relationship with steven thats way more complex than “my perfect mom got fridged and now i have to go on an angry manly rampage to avenge her” and I just think thats pretty cool and refreshing, ya feel?
---------edit-----------
Also, the show acknowledges that rose hurt people in a lot of ways without totally excusing her with a “she did what she though was best for everyone!” Like, she gets called out on her mistakes, especially in the more recent episodes
"The Emperor is a daddy without being a daddy"
Uh oh...
a moment of silence for when "the emperor was a DADDY without being a daddy." simpler times.
Not only did they retcon Palpatine into having a son but they then retconned said son into a failed clone of Palpatine which means that he's both Rey's dad and granddad.
Legolas + Liv Tyler definitely made an impact on a young me 😍
Huh, interesting. That wasn't my read on Thanos at all. I thought the film was genuinely positioning him as an abusive monster, and read the soul stone thing as doubling down on his monstrousness by showing him prioritising his goals over that love. I can see your position, though.
Absolutely agree on Odin and Yondu, however :V
especially because we saw in an earlier movie that Gamora couldn't see her father's abuse until she was an adult
I disagree about Odin because his children are literally monsters (except for Thor).
Oh dude, this is awesome. You've got yourself a subscriber and a fan. Honestly I'm just commenting here for bragging rights when you hit a million subscribers like... next month. Keep producing content like this, it is fantastic!
Agree with this.
Though I will say that Tony went bananas not because of his father, who he resented, but because of his mother. I quote, "I don't care. He killed my mom."
he just wanted to save martha!
WHY DID YOU SAY THAT NAME!?!
"Talk lies to me, Mommy."
I spent the next few minutes taking apart my phone case to dry it after spitting out my tea.
But also, THANK YOU for calling out the "Thanos loves Gamora" bullshit. That part of the movie took me out of it completely, it was so ridiculous.
Thanos worst dad ever. They don't redeem him in the comics. Nebula really hates him and kills the crap out of him. Total exploady, pretty great
You were woefully underused by... your previous employer
Concise and expansive, informative without being preachy, and funny without being condescending
OMG no wonder I thought she was so familiar.
@@streampunksheep Can I get some context?
Kate Slate cracked.com
I've heard this take about Infinity War conflating love with abuse, and while I have many problems with the film, and the Thanos Gomorra dynamic, I'm not sure it actually does this. The construction of the sacrifice is that THANOS must give up what THANOS loves most. Yes, we all know that from an outside perspective and certainly from Gomorra's perspective, the relationship is an extremely abusive one. But it's quite clear that Thanos believes what he feels for Gomorra is love, and since is is Thanos who must make the sacrifice, that's all that matters from the Soul Stone perspective.
It is quite possible for a person to genuinely love someone but still be an abusive monster, and indeed to characterize their abuse as a symbol of their love. Gomorra even challenges this when she realizes how deranged calling their relationship "love" is. To say otherwise is to suggest something not only untrue, but dangerous: that for something to be abuse, the ABUSER must define it as such, rather than the one who receives the abuse.
My sister and I grew up under a very abusive father, and the characterization of an abuser as one who views oneself as the one willing to make the hard choices, that hurts their children to help them and genuinely loves them despite being their tormentor is a very accurate one, and I never once felt like the film was asking me to see their relationship as anything but the monstrous tragedy that it was.
I did however feel like the film was asking me to sympathize with Thanos' worldview, which I do have some big issues with.
What's interesting is that I DID feel like a certain film was asking me to view an abusive relationship favorable, and that is Yondo is GotG2. I think people went way too easy on that film's handling of an abusive father.
I don't think normal dad's really identify with Thanos. It's made pretty clear he's the bad guy.
Did no one on the set of Man of Steel point out that Pa Kent and Jor El have the wrong script? If anything, they should be reversed. Jor, in rebelling against the predetermination of Kryptonian society, would want Kal El to choose his path in life. And Pa Kent should be the one who insists that there's some great purpose for Clark. In one scene, he even says "You were sent here for a reason." yet through his words and actions, he's saying the reason Clark is there is to hide his powers, no matter what, even if it means standing by and letting kids drown in a school bus. Honestly, it seems like Kevin Costner and Russell Crowe bumped into each other on set, dropped their scripts and accidentally picked each others up by mistake. And Zack Snyder didn't notice because, as we saw in Sucker Punch, he's not a very good writer.
UNTIL he is Ready( To bare the Rejection he'll ultimately face because Humanity is shitty). Everyone always overlooks that part. We see why this was Sound advice when we Meet Amanda Waller in Suicide Squad, a person who would have happily threatened to throw the Kents in Guantanamo to get her hands on an asset like Clark then used them as leverage for his continued obedience like she used the Witches and the Majors Hearts to gain theirs. The Movies were connected for a reason. And BvS was an answer to the question posed in The Dark Knight. "You ether die a Hero or live to see yourself become the Villain" This was a Batman who's been fighting crime in Gotham for twenty years. Batman does several Crimes in the movie from Theft to Manslaughter (Although Technically it was self defense) and at the "Martha" scene was going to commit the cold bloodied premeditated Murder of an Innocent man (who always held back and never physically struck him in their altercation) The Martha line is Batman realizing that in his grief and rage he'd allowed himself to become like the Man who'd killed his parents so long ago. Also you didn't understand Sucker Punch.
@@Fenris30 yeah sucker punch is a film about stories and archetypes, all Zack Snyder films are.
That bit with Gamora and the Soul Stone was so maddening. Thanos should have had to throw himself in because that's the only person he ever truly loved.
WillTheMallet Thanos did love Gamora. But he is also The Mad Titan, as in literally insane. He can not tell the difference between care and abuse, just as he can not distinguish creating a universal paradise from mass murder. You could call this a selfish or toxic love. I believe he truly wants the best for her but came only frame his actions based on his own desires not hers. He loves her but does not empathise with her.
Most importantly, he is cleary coded as the Villian (with a capital V), a warning to "daddies" of just hpw fucked up love without empathy can be.
will harris thats not love. Its possession. I really think that if they meant it as a warning or caution, then he wouldn't have gotten the Soul Stone by killing her. The way the movie stands is, its fine to be a monster because you still love them. He can be super abusive, but its still love! Just fucked up love. Thats not a warning its an excuse.
I think he did love Gamora, but it was a twisted love. A tortured love. He is a madman after all.
Spocksays I think the point is that love isn't an excuse. Love isn't an absulute good, it's a strong connection one feels to another due a perticular pattern of neurons firing. That doesn't make the feeling any less real for the person experiencing it, but it also doesn't make it a justification for the unjustifiable.
will harris But he’s so calm throughout the whole movie, we never get a sense of his insanity, and by the end of the movie a lot of people will end up agreeing with him. I think they sanitized him a bit too much just to make it interesting, that you could see him as the protagonist. I’m torn, because I do think showing him as more legit insane would be a better, classier move, but also less interesting, because we’ve seen that before. This Thanos is something different, a daddy who holds his caring facade up so well that you never see any sign of his true insanity, that he MUST get off on all this destruction or else why would he continue?
This all reminds me of a real quote by Noel Gallagher, songwriter of the band Oasis, which went: “You could say (my dad) beat the talent into me”
In his mind he was doing mental gymnastics to work out a way to justify his physically abusive dad’s behaviour, falling upon the idea that without and abusive dad he never would have retreated into learning the guitar. Noel also says that he “feels no compulsion to write about (his) abuse”, he’s either dealt with it in his own way or in denial about its effects on him. His younger sibling, Liam the singer of Oasis, was not beaten but harboured much more outward resentment for their father’s behaviour. It’s possible that Liam, having avoided physical abuse, was more brash because he hadn’t been beaten into his place by daddy.
These quotes are from the Oasis documentary “Supersonic: The Story of Oasis” if you’d like more context. Good film, with an interesting daddy moment too.
Tony's reaction in Civil War wasn't so much about his daddy, as it was about his Mother. He was never quite sure, until Iron Man 3 maybe, that his father really loved him, but his mother's love wasn't ambiguous, losing her screwed him up.
Exactly. She's the one who shows him clear compassion in the hologram flashback scene. He is also the person he refers to towards Steve when he states "This won't change anything". *_"I don't care, he killed my mom."_*
Is his father a factor of his anger? Sure. But it's not the focus of it.
I disagree! .....
I thought Baron Zemo was memorable.
Though good job pointing out Man of Steel's bonkers-ness.
Dave175 that ministry site was too much. Figures that the superhero movie with the worst message would be held up by churches as the best. It’s confounding, because other than the super super obvious and lazy religious imagery (Superman holds his arms out like he’s on a cross!), there’s nothing about Man of Steel that lines up with Jesus’ actual teachings
@@swans184 Yea, probably because it's a superhero movie....
Bruce's mom is always perfect. Most tellings of Batman's origins give Bruce/Batman decades of time to fabricate a Madonna persona for her. She almost always be everything the character of Batman wants to project upon the perfect mother that he lost.
What I am, unfortunately, super curious about is how does Ivanka process her father's obvious lust. Does she dismiss it and/or rationalize it in a subconscious way? Or is she actively aware of it? Or other possibilities that are too gross to contemplate.
interesting, why did you think of the way The Batman handled this? I mean, sure they've not explored it fully yet and are obviously leaving things for the future films to explore but having Martha Wayne be mentally ill and possibly hinting at that plus the deep seeded perversion of the city as a result of cyclical generational trauma was very interesting
As much as I appreciate the sentiment behind this video, the idea that abusive parents must be depicted as incapable of loving their children is not always a helpful message to send either. It falls into the tendency of A) dehumanizing the very concept of "an abuser" to the extent that they must simply be monstrous villains, making it hard to for us to recognize that not all abuse in real life is presented as soulless cartoon villainy, and B) over-glorifying the idea of love as this necessarily benevolent force for good that will necessarily prevail against all evil.
But the fact is that things are not always so simple and painting it as so simple makes it hard to recognize and confront actual abuse when we're faced with it. A parent can be loving to a child almost all of the time and still be abusive to them. Making it out as if a parent could only ever abuse you if they don't love you will just make victims think "Oh, well, my parents obviously do love me, so obviously they aren't abusers." Which, again, is not a helpful mindset. I would argue that a wiser message would be "Love does not magically solve all problems. Even if my parents love me, that doesn't change the fact that they could still hurt me and that I need to be wary of that."
It's a much uglier message. It's much harder to hear, and to confront. But it's still preferable to the simplistic fairy-tale depiction of abusive parents that, I'm sorry to say, appears to be what you are advocating for in its stead.
I literally state in the video that humans are complex people, capable of being loving and abusive at the same time.
Okay...I must have missed that detail in midst of the discourse chiding filmmakers for daring to show an abuser who loves his victim, in spite of his abuse, to impressionable adults and their kids. That's on me, I suppose.
And if that's the case then...what is the issue? Is Infinity War irresponsible or not for showing a truthful dynamic between an abuser and his victim? Is it simply this specific relationship between Thanos and Gamora, and the degree to which it is abusive, that is the problem here? Do you disagree that a completely black-white depiction of abusers -- where Thanos ended up totally not being able to love Gamora because he's a meanie and love is a precious pure thing reserved only for nice people -- would be an unhelpful message in different ways?
BrianWilly I completely hear what you are saying and also believe that it can coexist with a close inspection of shortcomings which in some cases may go unnoticed in order to be able to more closely examine ourselves and adjust accordingly. In other words, where's the conflict here? Perfection cannot be achieved but if it's our true aim, we can constantly improve.
Maggie, would it be possible to identify errors and shortcomings without painting the totality of a person as a villain? Certainly some people are overall malicious villains and some acts are eggregious enough on their own can negate the possibility of redemption but where do we delineate villain from flawed but not malicious individual who needs to identify and correct those flaws?
Wow. Only on the internet would you find someone arguing for more sympathetic portrayals of abusive parents.
@@ravenfrancis1476 So if you fuck up in a minor way, people in your life should abandon you in the nearest latrine pit?
Re: Thanos. I think that not all "love" is positive. I would argue that sometimes "love" can be obsessive and controlling, and even though the "universe" is validating that love, that doesn't necessarily mean it's a good thing
Also, I totally never realized what the perspective of an abused child would be watching this movie, that was extremely enlightening
Yeah I was abused as a child (but by my mom tho) and I'm glad I didn't see that movie. Just seeing guardians of the galaxy 2 made me so angry and deeply uncomfortable. I can't believe how much they glorified Yondu just because Ego was worse. Starlord discovers Ego is bad and that makes everything Yondu did to him somehow okay like how he's "Woow I realize now how you are my true father. I never should have rejected your love and being so focused on finding my biological dad". Like nooo you rejected his love because he beat your up and threatened to kill you multiple times. From him and his crew. That's great that you realize that he means more to you than just being a father figure and that you actually see him as a father but that doesn't make any abuses he made to you suddenly okay and that doesn't make him a good person. It especially pissed me off because in this movie and in the first one they keep hammering how Thanos is abusive. So they're okay with Yondu's abuse but not Thanos.
This isn't much of a surprise to discover than later on they try to justify Thanos's abuse too. I could have not have handled that. And that comes from someone who's a young adult and has some form of self-awareness with the situation. I can't tell you how much it would have fucked me up as a child because I would have not been confident enough to completely reject the movie, I would have just argue with it in my head while internalizing it.
Having watched this essay after Avengers: Endgame came out, i kinda feel you need to recant on Thanos.
My argument his humanization in Infinity War was intended as a counterpoint to his role in Endgame that he was indeed full off him self and largely self serving in his actions and his relationships.
Nebula's arc was supposed to represent that in a very unsubtle way.
Still its nice to be able to see perspectives i would otherwise not consider
This video essay very much suffer from the "let's have this idea and try to fit things inside" mindset, having not seen anything from DC besides Man of Steel I can't comment on it but the MCU very much urges his protagonits to get away from their father influence, Iron Man, Thor Ragnarok, Black Panther, Guardians of the Galaxy 1 & 2, are about that, even Spider-Man Homecoming, where Tony Stark is presented as one of the least objectionable father figure in the MCU is very much about encouraging Peter to be his own man and not follow in Tony's footsteps. Captain America civil war is about escaping the influence of a overbearing government represented by an actually abusive father (Ross) who has a toxic manipulative relationship with his daugter in the Incredible Hulk. That's why your video kind of feels disingenious, pretty much all the movies point clearly in one direction and you're trying to pretend they don't to fit a pre-prepared narrative. As for Thanos, besides the fact that he is VERY MUCH the bad guy in the story and thus isn't supposed to be taken as a positive exemple (protagonist does not equal hero, that's basic storytelling) the "universe rewarded him" does not make sens. You assume that the universe has morals or ethical ideas, the universe is not god, it does not reward the good and punishes the bad, it's completly infantile to think that way. It sets rules and you can choose to follow them or not, Thanos followed the stone rule, he sacrificed what he loved (at least according to his own view on love) and got what he wanted, simple as that.
Yes, preplanned agenda, and then try to distort the text to fit it in agenda. Postmodernism/marxism gone amok?
@@nitrostatus wut
"What was your choice, daddy? To neg him!"
LOL
So i'm gonna stan for Starlord here, but hear me out:
Star Lord did a lot of developing over 2 guardian's movies, but he was by no means done growing as a person, but he was on the road to being a better person.
then, in Infinity War, Gamora pulls Peter Quill to the side and says "if Thanos tries to capture me, kill me instead." --> fastforward to their encounter with Thanos: Quill puts a gun to Gamora's head, and goes through the emotionally wrenching act of pulling the trigger BUT Thanos uses his power to deny Gamora this agency over her own life and death capture her. Then, Peter finds out that Thanos only captured Gamora just so he could kill her anyway at a time more convenient for him. I'd go apeshit too.
However, I look back at Infinity War and Endgame and they really reflect bad on the MCU not just b/c of how the universe itself frames Thanos' abuse as love and he repeats fascist/eugenics talking points verbatim and none of the so called heroes ever refute him ideologically. fascism/eugenics doesn't die on ideological grounds, it dies because the avengers can punch harder than the fascists and they just happen to be on the right side of this particular conflict.
I mean, that does ring true, to be honest. Fascists are not ambiacable to debate. It's pretty clear Thanos ain't gonna be defeated through reasoned debate.
@@billyweed835 defeating someone ideologically doesn't demand debate. there's no film language going on in endgame that ever attempts to refute or push back against thanos' ideology. he's constantly framed as sympathetic if misguided, which is a dangerous way to portray ecofacism. the closest thing the movie makes to an argument about why the snap was a bad idea is "some of my friends are dead now and that makes me sad"
@@DarkSoulsSauron I mean...The fact that Earth has been left more or less in a post-apocalyptic state by his actions seems to be enough.
6:50 so you're worried about abused children watching a film that contextualizes their personal struggle? That shows them that while their abuser might still have feelings, that doesn't make them the good guy? Thanos was the villain the villain that killed most of our favorite superheroes. This movie might actually help abusees see that they need help or that their abuser needs to be stopped before they do worse things, even though they might think they love the abused kid
Multiple people have commented that Thanos offended them because of their own personal history of abuse; same goes for one of my closest irl friends. So maybe don't speak for victims of abuse as you defend a movie with a giant purple cartoon villain.
Maggie Mae Fish
Ive read a lot of your replies so far to people who make the point that the op did, and it seems more like you are really doubling down on your stance because you “have a black friend”. You’re ascribing your interpretation of the film to the intent of the filmmakers and justifying it because you’ve talked to victims of abuse, or have a friend that was one. Well I’ve also read other comments that had the opposite interpretation that you did who were also victims of abuse, including myself. So its okay for you to speak for abuse victims and think they all have to see the film the same way you do, and not the op? Or myself? Or anyone else? Thats a little arrogant. These things are subjective and nuanced.
But I still think I like u. And I loved Infinity War. And Thanos was a great villain.
I've seen people who in fact did get the message that thanos is a monster regardless of his feelings Maggie. How about you take your own advice.
I see the implication of Infinity War's treatment of Thanos, Gamora and the Soul Stone not as "Abuse is love", but as "Love can be abusive". Which, from my experience, can be true with parents.
wtf are you talking about
Parental fetishization is a real thing in media. Because the people creating media are guilty parents who are terrified of rebellion from their kids. Authoritarian abuse starts in childhood & media desperately tries to sweep it under the rug.
That’s why I loved the episode Arch Angel in Black Mirror.
I wonder what makes this person think that Infinity war was somehow endorsing Thanos evil deeds? Did the crowd on her movie theater stood up and cheer when the film was over and Thanos won? Because in my showing everyone was saddened and in shock.
THANK YOU. This is a huge reason I could never really get into Supernatural.
It's really weird how this internet and our culture has shifted the context of the word "daddy"
When the hell did I feel promiscuous and slightly uncomfortable using that word?! Or hearing it?!
Those deep fake skills on Jor-El were next level son
It might be hard to say but abusers do often “love” their victims but it’s never good love. You can love someone or something and still abuse it especially when your perception is skewed. In infinity war and endgame they show two very different kinds of love and relationship.
Agreed on almost all fronts. The only issue I take is the Pa Kent 'Maybe' scene.
There was enough acting there to inform the viewer that even though Pa Kent thought Clark did the right thing, he was worried about what would happen next.
The rest of the Daddy stuff was spot on.
Salient observations, but they skirt certain perceptual insights. Ironically, INFINITY WAR demonstrates the lessons that Pa Kent gets lambasted for. At several points in INFINITY WAR, the characters are given opportunities to thwart Thanos' plan but they fail to act out of their devotion to love or morality: out of love, Starlord doesn't kill Gamora--like she ASKED HIM TO--so Thanos is able to kidnap her; out of love, Gamora saves Nebula from torture, so Thanos learns where the Soul Stone is; Gamora doesn't kill herself so Thanos acquires the Soul Stone; and Starlord (again) acts out of love and breaks Mantis' bond with Thanos, waking him up. Thanos could have been stopped numerous times by utilizing the kind of big-picture aloofness Pa Kent advocates, but because no one does, Thanos succeeds and wipes out half the universe.
This illustrates a flaw with the type of moral positioning you assert: that a supreme moral victory has little practical application.
Hmmmm, Starlord does try to kill Gamora, Thanos prevents him to do so. Gamora then tries to kill herself before being thrown down the cliff, again, Thanos prevents her to do so... The Nebula torture thing is true, however he could end up torturing Gamora and it's kinda hard to keep your mouth shut when you're the on being tortured. The last one is probably the most accurate one, which everybody bitched about actually :-P
@@Kyrielsh1 Starlord tries to kill Gamora AFTER she wears him down; he was supposed to do it immediately before Thanos could react, but he didn't, which is how Thanos was able to take her. Gamora did not try to throw herself off the cliff to her death, so Thanos was able to; had she done it herself, the Soul Stone would not have appeared. These are fine points, to be sure, but it still reinforces my proposal that Thanos won by manipulating the love and morality of others to work against them.
Abuse of women being presented as a necessary step for development is pretty commonplace in Western storytelling. Black Swan and V for Vendetta are first of this style, in my mind.
I appreciate the video.
Well, if you take a step back, the whole concept of virility, manhood, is heavily described as an opposition to feminity (don't cry, don't be a wuss, don't act like a girl, don't be too soft...). So that's not too surprising, in a way...
Like not at all. These are mostly framed as bad things that people shouldn't have done. One of the most complained about tropes for its freqncey in modern history is dasmsle in distress. And that's pretty much 100% about how it's a bad thing to abuse women. This is an insane misreading of reality.
I thought all the Thanos stuff was pretty obvious. That's why they made him the villain. He loves Gamora, but it's a toxic type of love. Yes, Thanos is weirdly framed as the protagonist of Infinity War, but the whole film we know his morals are wrong. What makes it such a powerful story is we know he's wrong, but he wins and we're left with a Universe that fell victim to extremely flawed logic. So while Thanos did love Gamora, we're shown by the protagonists that this kind of love isn't healthy.
Man of Steel also knows Pa Kent is a bad dad. That's the point of his character. Clark deciding to be Superman is him overcoming the bad advice he grew up with and becoming his own person. We're supposed to disagree with Pa Kent.
Also I think the whole God/Father got a bit reversed. Families existed before religion, so I think they started calling God the Father in response to Father units in families, not the other way around.
Two dad related things, both of them tv shows, but still. First I love Fringe, and the whole show is about the incredibly far, and usually over reaching, lengths parents, fathers specifically in that case will go for their children. What's interesting about that is in all cases the show makes you sympathize with the dads but also doesn't forgive them for the consequences of their actions. All of the problems in this show are the direct result of their reckless actions and they have to do what they can now to correct it.
The other show, on the more positive side, is Bob's Burgers. Bob Belcher to me is probably one of the actual best dads on TV and maybe in media period. He's not actively dumb like Homer Simpson or Peter Griffin, nor is he naïve in someway or another like Hank Hill or other bumbling tv dads. But he's not perfect either, he can get too involved in things, he lets his emotions let him take things too far, but he always tries his absolute best for all of his kids, even when he doesn't completely get them.
And his relationship with Louise is one of the most heartwarming things on TV.
Interestin g portrait is nobles other crazy father denethor in lotrArcher is interesting. It puts the whole abusive daddy role on the mother and the most probable father is surprisingly emotional about it (nikolai)I think Ncis gibbs is one o the best tv father figures, tonys father is interesting too, zivas, timms father. Gibbs is caring about his "family" even with his stoic and sometimes irrational behavior.
An abused daughter is being taken to the movies? This seems like a contrived example. Most of these daddies are antagonists. I think these are all examples of why and how one can empathize with their adversaries. Yes that is hard, but the only escape from eternal conflict.
Um. Do you think abusive fathers just lock their daughters in a tower like Rapunzel?
@@MaggieMaeFish I really enjoyed your video essay. Thank you for sharing it. I don't know what Rapunzel did, but I think you conjured an intentionally emotionally manipulative hypothetical situation to bolster an argument that was otherwise well supported by actual argument based on the excerpts from source material.
Awesome video. How Gamora wasnt really necessary to her story in Infinity War wrecked the movie for me.
Also, that Sanders joke was insane.
Damn, that was a damn good video, Mags. Cogent analysis, insightful and incisive. Can't wait for part 2!
On a tangential note, am I the only one who was alarmed by the trend of people who were all "Thanos was right" on twitter? Like, are those people on a watchlist? 'Cause they probably should be...
Yeah it's almost as if humanizing a genocidal character leads fans to exhibit terrifying behavior!
*shock*
Alarmed, yes, but not surprised.
Well, looks like misanthropy is still a thing... That was pretty disheartening, yeah...
I'm having a hard time though, believing that people will root for genocide just because "humanised villain". Overall, not feeling very comfortable with the habit that we collectively have to make the persons we disagree with either very dumb or completely rational (like their only purpose is obviously to harm us or oppress us). All in all to convince us that we completely understand them. Well forget it, it's just a side note...
You missed one more manipulative dad in MCU, that is Nick Fury...Nick Fury is sort father figure of Avengers...he manipulates Avengers by faking Coulson's death...
Loved it! I could've done with even more on Rand/Snyder, as that stuff fascinates me, and you have really good spins on it all!
I think we watched different movies as far as marvel goes. Peter Parker is very uncomfortable with the "macking" on his aunt and neither Thanos nor Tony Stark are depicted as good father figures (except perhaps Tony in endgame in his relationship with his daughter). I think you are getting a little too all or nothing in your read of Thanos especially. Thanos does "love" Gamora in his own fucked up way, but he is still a monster and what he does is still only morally justified if you completely ignore the emotional need of the individual in favor of the far off physical need of the masses. This isn't sending the message that it's ok for him to abuse her, it's sending the message that you can have genuine affection for your children and still abuse them due to your own fucked up mentality.
As for man of steel, I don't think you are treading any new ground here. That movie and all the points you bring up have been mocked to high hell so often and for so long that it is all old hat by now.
I thought that was the point of Man of Steel. Traditionally, Pa Kent is the one who instills the values into Superman. This version showed how Pa Kent still had that influence but wasn't giving the right advice. In fact, Pa Kent's advice really torments Clark. Eventually, Superman takes a little from both his fathers, while ultimately choosing his own path-- you know, as we all do. I remember how people hated what Snyder did to change Pa Kent, but the more I think about it, the more I like it. He was flawed. Superman's mother was the only one who told him how to manage his abilities, which is what helped him when he was fighting Zod.
Make more of these film essays! You're fantastic! And if you can, do some shorter videos about, say, television or anime (since I know you saw at least DB Super)
Captain America Civil War-Daddies cause fights. Batman V. Superman-Mommie's names end fights.
Today I Learned there's a subgenre of action films that will henceforth forever be known to me as "Murder Daddy" films and I don't know how to feel about that
5:50 Which they shouldn’t, because there’s a reason it’s rated PG-13.
I give MCU credit for showing that Howard Stark was a bad dad and thats shown with Tony being more upset at his mom's death, even if she was juat there, his reaction shows she was more loving. Its not much but its something.Also Thanos saying he loves Gamora doesnt mean much because if he truly loved her he wouldnt have killed her. I'm not really sure Infinity War romantisized abuse but it needed to for sure hone in that Thanos is wrong and terrible just a bit more. And believe me I have a real bad person for a father who acts like Thanos, thinking he's doing right and saying he loves me when I know he's full of shit...
Wow. This was terrible. One-sided, biased and denying the reality that life has tough choices, misandrist, somehow smart and illogical at the same time. Your life must be incredibly privileged and easy. This and I agree with you about many things; but don't you feel a responsibility to fairly represent the characters you analyze?
As much as i hate the “martha scene” i feel like devotion to a parental unit is misreading the situation. The way i read the scene is that up until his point batfleck has only been able to see superman as an alien, and when he is told that superman has a mother it humanizes him. Batfleck is able to see him as a person who CAN HAVE a mother, not just an alien
The problem I see with that interpretation is that Batman talks about Superman's parents earlier in that same scene. "I bet your parents taught you that you mean something, that you're here for a purpose". I don't see how Superman could suddenly become humanized in Batman's eyes for having a mother when Batman was just talking about him having parents.
@@vadalia3860 Think of what matters in that situation as ''mother in a threatening situation'', as he didn't empathize with Supes, he didn't emphatize with him having a family too. He was angry at him, and possibly thought that his parents were not different. And when the ''Martha'' scene happens, as Bruce has PTSD, his emotions and memories about the situation gets triggered , he always felt guilty of not being able to ''Save'' her and as Martha, his mother and the last word he heard in that situation makes him realize he was about to kill say, the little boy in the crime alley and let ''Martha'' die at the same time. Batfleck was pretty distant from his ''human'' side at this point as Robin died,and everything went to shit, he started killing people and this is the scene where he embodies the pain he felt, his fragile human side and realizes Clark is a human, as much as him in Crime Alley.
@@Atesjb But with that interpretation, Batman becomes a rabid dog who would have murdered an innocent man and fellow hero (term used loosely for Batman here) if only his mother had been named say... Helen... instead.
@@vadalia3860 We don't know what would happen, I personaly want to believe he would stop himself at one point. But well, he was off the rails and if he didn't get that he had a mother in danger his ptsd wouldn't have been triggered, hypothetically
Nah, Snyder said that during the scene Batman viewed himself as Joe Chill (The dude who killed his parents) and was disgusted with what he had become. It's not because he realized Supes had a mother.
Maggie. I'm so glad you have your own series. :') These are really great analyses, I'm super looking forward to more
What about Peter Quill shooting his biological father after learning that he's responsible for the cancer that killed his mother?
"Dead school children is something we must be okay with." Oh, America, come on!
Care to elaborate so you are not misinterpreted?
I can tell On Grammatlogy by Derrida just by the colors 😭
Leon Thomas sent me. You've got yourself a new subscriber!
There is Pa Kent and there is Uncle Ben in Raimi SpiderMan...Uncle Ben is far better than Pa Kent...
Daddies, you say? Repeatedly, even? Well, color me intrigued AND uncomfortable!
I see how Infinity War conflates love with abuse with the Gomora sacrifice scene (which sucks), but isn’t Thanos still the villain of the story? Isn’t the fact that he’s a bad dad the point if the movie?
Oh, she kinda answers this question near the end of the follow up video.
The way I read it was that the creepy temple where the sacrifice takes place was created by evil magic space people who only claimed to be arbiters of the the universal will. The set looked like an evil surreal Catholic church to me. And the guy who took them there was Red Skull (not a good guy). But I really wish the movie made this more explicit. It could just be wishful thinking on my part.
To be fair, I think some people were tired of seeing another trope of "killing the girl to advance the male protagonist's story". Which I get.
Kyrielsh1 I see what you mean. And even though Thanos is a villain, he is pretty much the protagonist of Infinity War isn’t he?
It’s one of the few genuinely disturbing moments in the MCU, I think it could have worked well if the script had made some kind of intelligent comment on how messed up it was.
The problem is that some fans think he's a great dad who really loved Gamora. He destroyed half her planet, kidnapped her and Nebula and forced them to be his servants, replaced Nebula's body parts with machinery every time Gamora beat her then killed Gamora to get the stone.
Xehanort10 Well you know dads, them and their tough love
Regarding Mano of Steel. You said that Jor-El is contradictory when he emphasizes choice and tells Superman what to do... but no... nah... he doesn’t tell him what to do. He tells him what he CAN do but that’s different. “You can be the best of both worlds.” Is very different from “you ought to go represent the best of both worlds.” What “dady” wouldn’t at least provide some semblance of guidance along with the choice? Sorry, it just feels like you’re grasping at straws there.
If grasping at straws means "using literal dialogue from the movie to show what the movie is saying," then sure.
The aspect of having him being a better father as hologram, while his actions on krypton are shown as probably questionable. Jor el and hologram jorel are diferent persons.
In Man of Steel, if it was done right, Pa Kent would represent Clark's humanity, Zod would represent his Kryptonian heritage, and Jor-El would represent his choice to be what he wants to be, whatever that is, but it was handled very clumsily.
"Abuse is love." Yes, that's one message that could be interpreted by children and adults. However, moviegoers aren't passive viewers. They take their past experiences and knowledge to make meaning of the images and narratives that a movie bombards them with. They also don't perceive messages in silo, rather, in relation to the many other messages within the film. We can only guess what viewers take away (sometimes those guesses are correct if we share the same cultural experiences and visual codes). I would agree that the relationship between Thanos and Gamora equates to abuse is love, yet, the viewer never identifies with Thano's cause to justify his abuse and killing of Gamora. We know from the get-go he's the villain, and in our culture, we might admire the villain, but never root for him, or think he's right, even when he's a made an empathetic character. That said, this is changing. Breaking Bad has ushered in a bad is good mentality across television and film (the anti-hero), making clear why we glamorize oppressive daddy figures -- you can't get what you really want by doing the right thing. We live vicariously through these characters because they do what deep down inside we might desire to do, but are too honest and moral to do (hopefully). Save Martha!
A Breaking Bad critical analysis may be in order...
Great comment, really I'd loooooove to see more of these on the internet!!! The Breaking Bad part is really nice. Makes me wonder if this is not the precise moment where you should consider the possibility that what you want is not necessarily good for you or for others and should not be pursued as such.
It kinda sounds like a classic triviality, but that's pretty much the "spiritual way", as in getting detached of material things and of needing to feed your ego. And I can't help but feel this is a thematic which has been ridiculed a bit in the last decades, but maybe I'm just too biased to see that it's not so... Well there are a few stories here and there that touch upon it, like the Matrix trilogy (well not from that precise angle, but it's still a spiritual initiation with a gazillion spiritual and religious references).
I don't know, maybe this fascination with anti-heroes and people doing bad things just comes from our need to exorcise the bad cravings and impulses we all sometimes feel. It may be the new way to do that in the place of old traditional symbolic ceremonies in other times and places, like burning a scapegoat on which we project our fears and impulses, story of the world somehow...
Yo is this the girl that was on Cracked? Subscribed.
6:33 wait do people think invfinity war was about thanos being a good guy? why the hell would a father go "oh hell yeah, i should do that" after seeing a guy sacrifice his daughter
Not only did I like this video, I gasped at the robot in the background. I owned that one when I was a kid and then forgot all about him. I didn't think anyone else every had him. I'm blanking on his name, but still...props!
If a child goes to see Infinity War with their father (whom are they are stuck in an abusive relationship with) and is upset because Gamora is sacrificed by Thanos then what does it matter?
That child has far bigger things to worry about, like, getting out of the horrible real life situation. Should film makers be forced to make films that cater to the 0.003%? The film does not treat this as a healthy relationship not only because it ends in her death but because Gamora and Nebula try and kill their father on multiple occasions. I believe that this film could help children open their eyes to the abusive situation they are in and show how important it is that they get out.
Thanos is not _really_ rewarded for sacrificing Gamora, for a start it hurts him a lot, more than almost everything else he suffers through in the film. Then at the end he admits that although he accomplished his goal it was a high price:
Thanos: Daughter.
Young Gamora: Did you do it?
Thanos: Yes.
Young Gamora: What did it cost?
Thanos: ...Everything.
In the real world people are abused by those who love them all the time. It's sad, but it happens. The message of that scene is not that Abuse = Love but that horrible people can abuse someone whilst still loving them especially if they are as twisted as Thanos. I can tell that's a tough pill for you to swallow, it certainly is for Gamora.
leave it to Thanos stans to make the argument "if a child is abused in real life, what does it matter??"
@@MaggieMaeFish
Who is stans?
Wait, I'll do you one better, why is stans?
But really, what does that have to do with my argument?
@@MaggieMaeFish
Seriously I'm still confused what argument you were trying to make.
Your hypothetical scenario of (maybe abusive) dad and daughter see infinity war together made me smile.
I saw infinity war with my dad, who abused me as a child, when we reconciled after years of silence. The whole Thanos and Gamora plot made things a little awkward. Honestly tho, I find the irony endlessly amusing.
Getting more serious, your point absolutely stands. Watching it now, I Know that what Thanos felt wasn't love, but had I watched it when I was younger and had no idea that I was being abused, it would only have reinforced what I thought of as parental love - something broken, tragic, unescapable, and ultimately all about the abuser.
7:22, Thank you! Someone finally said what I've been feeling for years.
For every time assholes try to defend the 'scars build character' pseudo philosophy with real life examples, I'm willing to bet those stories can be matched with the real life story of those who wound up simply broken under it. Or worse, became abusers themselves.
Despite how much I dislike the Snyder Superman flicks, I thought Jonathan Kent was the best part. I thought he came off conflicted. He was being pulled into different directions: between the platitudes he believed to be important and his concern that is son is going to be treated like ET. But the video is pretty hard to argue with. I pretty much agree with everything else ( although I'm expecting a "catch" when it comes to Gamora's "sacrifice").
I know I'm way late to the party but I only just discovered your channel. Another note on the Thanos+Gamora relationship that, oddly enough, isn't brought up in Infinity War is Nebula. Thanos pretends to be a "tough love daddy" but he's not. Look what he did to Nebula, someone who is just as much his daughter as Gamora is. She's part machine because Thanos abused the fuck out of her. And he cares so little that he tortures Nebula just to get information out of Gamora. He doesn't love either of them. He just prefers Gamora because she's the stronger of the two. If, growing up, Nebula constantly beat Gamora, would he still care as much? No. He's a genocidal maniac who pretends what he's doing is completely fair and impartial, wanting to destroy half the universe at random then retiring to a little hut on a far off planet to retire. Notice that he isn't at risk of being disintegrated during the snap. Everyone is at risk, except him, of course. How noble.
I take issue with your interpretation of iron man's protection and anger for his father and parents.
Don't see you getting an industry job without being a team player. Neg on. Don't change. Stay golden.
If only this video was more about Daddy's Home.
That being said, I love Man of Steel, but Johnathan Kent is by far the weakest part of that movie. From the contradictions to the pointless death. Again, that being said, I do like a couple things about his portrayal. For one thing he's not an altruistic wisdom fountain like every other parent/guardian in comics. I also kind of like that "I don't know, maybe" response.
It's pretty human. Parents generally care about the safety and happiness of their children above all. Let's say a kid dies protecting his fellow classmates from a shooter. Sure the parent might be proud of them but if they could change things they'd tell them not to go to school that day knowing that he wouldn't be there to save anyone.
In that scene Johnathan is worried about his son being discovered, taken away, locked up, and experimented on. He's also worried about what the discovery will mean for the world. So when he says "I don't know, maybe" to me it feels like an honest human reaction. Does that make it a good thing to tell a kid? No. Does that make it right? No. It just makes it kind of realistic.
There's definitely an interesting "father who TRIES to say smart stuff, but fails because he is human" theme to be explored, but the movie genuinely seems to think that Pa Kent is wise, which is... really weird. And it's great to get constructive comments from people who are fans of the movie! :)
Maggie Mae Fish
I don't know. You mentioned the music cues during the Pa Kent scenes but for me I was always more focused on Clark than his father. It seemed less about Pa Kent being wise and more about Clark figuring himself out. Also in those scenes Clark is always "opposing" his father. So in a way he's always going against the bad advice. To me it seemed that the music played whenever Clark was figuring out who he was going to be and what he was going to do.
Anyway, really enjoyed the video. I was already subbed but I hit the bell so I won't miss the next upload. Good luck with the channel.
The movie is really weird about Clark's daddies, and I think Pa Kent exists the way he does as purpose (he's supposed to be a bad dad because his real dad is a metaphorical god and Clark is basically space Jesus). Jor-El gets elevated to a super-awesome badass space god who knows everything and passes his son down to be a savior and Pa Kent is just some confused dude trying to serve Jor-El's unspoken but grand design.
And this basically makes both characters useless.
Going off the space daddy thing, his space mommy is basically just a womb. She has no input, no agency, and no perspective and just provides a fertilized egg and then feels bad.
And yet... the movie is really good about his Earth mommy. Martha is complicated, thoughtful, comforting, affectionate, and supportive and the movie immediately captures all of this in a single scene. Martha makes sense, and when she becomes his berserk button fighting the Kryptonians, that played really well.
I just think a lot was sacrificed to make that weird Jesus metaphor stick.
I think it's more than just that. The movie doesn't try to potray Pa Kent as wise for that, but for admitting that he doesn't know what to do, and telling his son the truth. It's not just about being afraid of losing his son. The movie makes a big deal that if the existance of Superman was revealed, it would completly change everything about our world, and it does.
In BvS, the existance of Superman led people to either worshipping him or thinking he should be destroyed (Batman, Luthor). The world finding out about his existance leads a man (Luthor) to creating a monster that could have literally destroyed all of humanity, which leads to Clark's death and in Justice League we see that Superman's death led to a rise in terrorism and war (I don't remember if that's in the movie, but it is in the trailer). Lex also contacts an alien planet and helps them invade the earth (The plot of JL). And of course Pa Kent had no idea that would happen, but he knew that the world knowing about Clark could lead to terrible things.
That scene was him admitting he had no idea what the right thing was and asking "are we willing to rinsk billions of lives to save a few?". I don't know if that was the right thing to say to a child, but it wasn't a normal child, his situation was serious, there were lives on the line and it was all on the kid's shoulders. Pa Kent was honest because that was the best thing he could do.
I also don't think his death was pointless, it was a way to show his conviction. He believed that the world wasn't ready, and was willing to die for it.
I apologize for any mistakes i might have made, I'm not a native English speaker.
Ally Rocha
You're right that his death was to show his conviction but in happening the way it happened it was not only unrealistic but it betrayed the main character, Clark, and his ideals. Remember Clark didn't believe the same way his father did so the fact that he let him die needlessly doesn't make sense.
To take it down to a more basic level. When you're watching a movie about a hero and that hero doesn't save someone, not fails to save them but chooses not to, it feels wrong and it lowers your opinion of them (even more so in this case as it's his father).
Now at times this feeling may not be fair to the story or the journey the character is on but most people can't help the way they feel. In the case of Man of Steel that feeling of wrongness when he allows his father to die is justified in my opinion. As I said Clark's beliefs were not the same as his fathers (or at the very least not as absolute) so the fact that he would allow his dad to die, as he watched, is completely unrealistic. Clark would not be able to do that. A hero would not do that.
Hey I want to say I love your videos and I think your commentary is spot on in this one. Thanks for posting your creative-ness to the internets.
Peter doesn't idolize "celebrity arms-dealer Tony Stark", he admires genius inventor Tony Stark.
I had a problem with IronMan: Homecoming but I don't think it's fair to portray Peter as idolizing Tony because he's a rich celebrity.
...Nobody really cares about my opinion on Homecoming, at least not any rando on the internet, but I guess I'll get into it anyway, because I want to and it's the internet: there's infinite room, my long-ass, tangential comment isn't going to prevent anybody else from offering their own on-point comment about this video.
Peter is Marvel's flagship hero. He's one of the most relatable, likeable, admirable heroes in all of comics, up there with Superman. He has his share of problems, particularly in his personal life (exacerbated by his superhero life), but he always tries to do the right thing, no matter what it could cost him.
He's typically shown as a younger hero than Marvel's other popular heroes (I'm thinking specifically about the Fantastic Four and the Avengers), less cynical than they are and so he does, in some ways, look up to and admire them (particularly genius inventors Reed Richards and Tony Stark, for the obvious reasons), but he's been a hero longer than they have. He's a better, more selfless hero than they are; he would do the right thing even if they told him not to.
The degree to which he cares about Tony's opinion in the movie annoyed me; I get why he'd want Tony's approval - both as a fellow genius/inventor as well as a fellow hero - but Tony's a bit of a selfish prick; he doesn't hold a candle to Uncle Ben when it comes to being a thoughtful, considerate, compassionate person.
When he tells Peter to stop being a hero because he's out of his depth, Peter shouldn't seriously consider doing what he tells him to do, not for a second. He should react by getting angry at Tony for treating him like a kid when Peter's the more experienced hero.
I get, I guess, why they had Peter say the line "without the suit, I'm nothing" because that's actually Tony's "problem" (it's funny, get it?) but... no. Without the suit, Peter's still Spiderman.
I get that Peter gets walked on, his personal life's a mess, he's not able to tell the people he cares about what he does because he doesn't want to put them in danger, but he shouldn't ever doubt that he could be a hero without gadgets; that's bonkers. That's a fundamental misunderstanding of who Spiderman is, who Peter is.
Also, Zendaya's character being MJ was a bit of an Easter Egg? WTF was that about? That was dumb.
Revealing who he was to both his friend and to Aunt May through carelessness was dumb too; in "Ultimate Spiderman" he told MJ pretty early on, so I'm not against breaking from the tradition of keeping it a secret until marriage (or some facsimile thereof), but through carelessness? I get that he's a kid, but he shouldn't be *that* dumb.
I just don't get the whole structure of the movie, that was an odd choice; Jenny Nicholson has a video up about how Peter's high school is like "Hey Arnold" and how odd a fit that is for a Spiderman story.
I don't think it was bad, just subpar; I prefer the choices made in the Sam Raimi/Tobey Maguire Spiderman duology with regards to Peter's social status, etc.
(Although I *did* very much like that MJ liked Peter without him realizing it. I've written at length about that elsewhere, but in short: MJ liking Peter and him being unaware of it speaks well for MJ, showing that she likes Peter because he's smart and thoughtful, even though he's socially awkward and lacks confidence.
And while lacking confidence isn't an attractive quality it does help to develop that side of Peter, that he doesn't see how a woman like MJ - or like what's-her-face in Homecoming - could like him.)
plus Tony stopped selling weapon in the first Iron Man movie
After 2 minutes I got sick of the word daddy.
Haha omg you just said Tony Stark being mad about his parents being killed is comic book logic because they were neglectful? Way to show you have no idea how abuse works.
Oh gawd. Why is this video the most relatable thing I've seen all year?
*immediately continues down youtube rabbit hole of escapism*
I'm fine.
This is semantic drivel.
The word daddy - "That supreme authority can also be coded as female."
Luke from TLJ is a mentor figure, which means daddy?
"Darth Vader is both a symbolic Daddy and a literal one."
"But the Emperor is a daddy without being a Daddy."
Just stop.
wow you're gonna be blown away when you realize that words can take on different meanings in different contexts!
This is really interesting - I wonder if you'd ever consider doing a followup re: Thanos killing Gamora, juxtaposing it with the sacrifice of Black Widow. The similarities between the two female characters who die - raised from an early age to be weapons, rejecting their upbringings to join "the good guys", tending to be the voice of reason as well as only girl on their teams - are a bit much to be coincidental. Add to that the fact that bad/abusive Daddy Thanos deliberately throws his daughter off a cliff to fulfill his own ends, while good/supportive Daddy Hawkeye (who isn't Natasha's Dad, but does have a pseudo-familial relationship with her and who began the movie interacting with his daughter, framing him in that context for the audience) actively tries to prevent his best friend's death, preferring to die himself. Both movies are still problematic for lots of reasons, but the overall message is at least a little more positive when viewed as part of a whole, I think. Sort of.
Maggie jumping on the video-essay-train? I like it!
Great vid, loved it, awesome seeing you do your own thing after the whole unfortunate thing with Cracked, but...
UNMEMORABLE BAD GUY!?
...How dare you...
FINALLY the daddy discourse we've all been waiting for!
I'm glad someone is finally pointing out how un-earned Thanos being granted the soul stone was. There's 0 real indication he loves Gamora. It's breaking the important storytellers' rule of "show, don't tell", and offers no sympathy for his character, even if it makes him cry. It's a bad moment that could be saved if he had at any point in the story made a single sacrifice for Gamora.