🛠 Live Tuning: K24 Mazda 121 with Individual Throttle Bodies (ITBs) | TECHNICALLY SPEAKING
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- Опубліковано 2 чер 2024
- #itb #stacks #tuning
Individual Throttle Bodies (ITBs) look great and sound fantastic but they can be tricky to tune. Our patient today is a Honda K24 swapped Mazda 121 with DBW-equipped ITBs sourced from a Yamaha R1 motorcycle. This is a long, tech-heavy video, so before you hit that play button we highly recommend watching this video, explaining the basics of ITBs, what they are, and how they work:
• 🛠 Can ITBs increase h...
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00:00 Introduction
01:28 Mazda 121 with K24 and ITBs
02:40 Overcoming the lack of manifold pressure
04:12 Tuning on idle
06:14 Throttle Position Tuning
12:02 Steady State Tuning
16:45 25% TPS
21:12 50% TPS
23:50 75% TPS
27:39 100% TPS
29:53 ITBs worth it or nah?
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This is a long, tech-heavy video, so before you hit that play button we highly recommend watching this video, explaining the basics of ITBs, what they are, and how they work:
ua-cam.com/video/7FInBYzMTN4/v-deo.html
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It's Tech Time!
Individual Throttle Bodies (ITBs) look great and sound fantastic but they can be tricky to tune. In this video Scotty aka Tuning Fork goes through the basics of tuning with ITBs dropping plenty of knowledge bombs in the process. Our patient is a Honda K24 swapped Mazda 121 with DBW-equipped ITBs sourced from a Yamaha R1 motorcycle.
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For more Haltech goodness check out our:
Website: www.haltech.com
Facebook: facebook.com/HaltechEngineManagement
Instagram: instagram.com/haltechecu
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i dont think it was clear to everyone, that you were mostly trimming an already mapped AFR and not actually tuning the ideal AFR\Ignition each load point needs for power or economy. so even tho the AFR 13.1 + IGN 25degA was set for X/Y load point the ideal setting my need to be changed in the AFR\IGN map. ???
Scotty is so experienced. Ive seen him say "this is just a guess" dozens of times. Ive never seen his be guess wrong.
Thanks guys for letting us strap the mighty bubble on the dyno!
One mean jelly-bean! :)
Make some videos on it!
I thought I had a Big Block Bubble. You guys just blew mine out of the park. 😅👍
What gearbox are you using?
@@MafiaboysWorld I'm still amazed it fit! It's running the Accord Euro 6 speed gearbox.
@@jimbositb 6 SPEED?! WHAT?! 😳 I knew the K would fit because it fits in the MX5 which is stock BP and the BP fits in the 121, but the 6 speed aswell?!?! 🤯🤯 Dude, bravo. 👏👏👏
What's her weight now with the K24? You say anything under 900kg, I'm gonna need a towel. 😂👍
Such a good video! Thank you so much for posting this. I knew a lot of the theory but I didn't quite know how to put it into practice. This video is extremely helpful
You're welcome. Glad you've enjoyed it:)
That's a feisty little nugget, love the roar!
As much as I love HP Academy, you've just done in 30 minutes what they do in 5 hours. :D
I have a 2007 Accord as a daily. Stoked to see Scotty approves these engines. Honestly though, mine sounds nothing like this machine.
Awesome video. simple, easy to follow and in depth.
This is so useful, thanks Scotty and Haltech for sharing this!
This video was awesome! Would love to see longer more detailed videos like this!
This was extremely educational Scott! Thanks so much for putting out videos like this!
Fantastic video Scotty!
Thanks for another great in-depth video. As always, the methodical steps and easy to understand instructions make it all seem very achievable. No doubt I'll be watching this over many times, as i get my head around it. Thanks again.
As usual Scott, your smarts and knowledge of tuning is incredible to watch. I'm sure I've just watched more than I'll ever need to learn and enjoyed every moment.
One of the best channels on youtube!
THANK YOU for this episode....amazing
Magician on the laptop...but also very accurate in explaining what you are doing! Was a pleasure to watch
GREAT KNOWLEDGE!! Thank you!! Great video
Simply brilliant, thanks Scott.
Just the info I need as I'm close to firing up my WBX bug with throttle bodies.
thanks Scott, hopefully I'll get the itbs, this will help towards tuning them, thanks again nicholas.
That typical Honda start up never gets old..ever
Great video, thanks, Scotty!
You win the internet for the 22nd/2nd/23. : )
I hope you do a follow up video, showing the effects of longer and shorter inlet manifold runner lengths.
3D print different thickness ITB adapters.
Im also keen to see how it's possible to tune using different length trumpets.
Just saying!
: )
Thank you for this very informative video. You are the best Scotty and Haltech.
Scotty mentioned the possibility of staged injectors on Marty's old rotary Mazda. I would love to see a live tuning video on any engine with staged injectors.
Very excited to see the length tuning video and don't forget to play with butterfly position as well as overall length. From my own testing you'll get more gains from finding the perfect butterfly position and total length than you will from bellmouth design or taper.
I've never tuned an engine besides making my subaru do pops and bangs on decel, and yet after watching scottie i feel like i could slap some sensors on my lawnmower and get it to run 11's. love these video chaps, great stuff and well explained
If you ever succeed (with the 11sec lawnmower) we want to see the video!!!
Talk to Al and Woody!!
Is it a rite of passage for Subaru owners to get some overruns? That’s the only thing I did to my Subaru too, haha.
Really good video 🔥💪👍🏻
Great information Scot, thanks
Brilliant stuff Tuning Fork
Fun video to learn some with. I need to drop off my ITB'd e30 for you to go over!
Haltech delivers again thank u guys 👌
Such a cool video Tuning fork. I understand what you were doing, but it was kinda fast and a lot to look at all at once. I've read a few books and watched videos on EFI tuning like yours, but I'm convinced that i can learn and retain this knowledge better if i was in a formal, classroom setting, talking notes and formulating a strategy for tuning.
Thank you sir, for making the way of tuning more properly..🙏🏻
there is a ton of "best practices" and theory in this video if you catch it. awesome
This is the best Tuning video I’ve seen on itb. Can’t wait to upgrade my ecu to an elite for my itb setup
Was this engine running a vacuum log from each runner?
Now THAT is a Big Block Bubble. 😎👍
Now...if you excuse me, I have plans to change after watching this. 😈
Incredible video
I used to go out drinking on a Friday night, but these days I get just as much of a kick out of coming home at the end of the week to see Scotty tell me about APP vs TPS, TPS vs MAP and injector pulse width vs VE.
Great video
Woooooosh great stuff though. Respect to you guys.
This video was so valuable. So many great tips! Can you cover dyno calibration and setup?
Great video to see especially after watching Gears and Gasoline's K series S2000 with ITB's. Now Time for Boost!
That's when things get serious:)
Power gain depends on application. I've gone from an engine rated at 118kw flywheel from Toyota, to something that makes 134 hub rwd with a well r and d'd itb setup. I think with modern emissions laws cars have fairly high performance and clean running engines that are choked up with bad cat converter designs up by the head, small exhausts, and undersized throttle bodies. The k24 is the rare exception as Honda does a great job with their design.
On my engine, 2azfe, I've changed from a single 55mm throttle to 4 X 48mm throttles but the real gains came from extending the length of the inlet by moving the butterfly's upstream. There are other benefits you can tap into such as upstream injection so you get a cool charge and improved atomisation, that might not be possible with a single throttle OEM manifold. I plan to start experimenting with this soon but my e420d adaptronic ecu has a fairly limited way to integrate this.
Thanks! I had never thought of limiting the DBW % to restrict the cells of each run, I will be doing this on my 4G63 powered 323 with4age ITBs converted to DBW
This is a great video. I use TPS as my load source in my R32 GTR. I’d like to see how the Ignition Base is done. This is something that’s never covered.
Thanks Scott and Haltech for this excellent video !
I'd love to see a video explaining why and how the MAP sensor is computed to provide the proper fuel injected output, in low-loads conditions with ITBs.
I've just switched my ITB setup to InjectionTime method because of weird low-load (TPS < 25%) outputs and difficulties to reach the AFR Target values with the VE Method. I converted the onboard pressure to Atmospheric Sensor and I'm not sure I can do that with the VE Method.
Eventually, an dedicated "ITB Method" would be VERY much appreciated, as it is offered in various other ECU/Software (MS for instance).
Great video, thanks Scott. I'll be putting this into practice soon with a set of Yamaha YZF-R6 DBW throttle bodies on an old BMC A-series retrofitted with an Arden 8-port cylinder head.
Nice! Interested to see how it goes:)
@@haltech Yeah, same here. Now all I need is the Nexus R3, waiting patiently 🙂
Not long now:)
@@haltech the interesting thing about the YZF-R6 (and YZF-R1) throttle bodies is that the pedal position sensor is integrated into the throttle bodies and a cable is connected from the pedal to the throttle bodies. So I get to keep my old Morris Mini accelerator pedal, win.
@@haltech question regarding the use of MAP for the VE. If the engine has a big camshaft (say 300 degree duration), would it still be OK if the MAP signal bounces around at low RPM?
The tuning guru
Awesome 👌👌
Awesome video, I'll be doing something similar soon. For the MAP sensor is it better to have a larger or smaller vacuum block to pull a signal from? I think that the ports from the ITBs shouldn't be bigger than 1mm and have equal length lines to the vacuum block, agree?
The haltech gandalf does it again!
Would really love to see how you can incorporate compensation to better drivability on the ITBs. Such things like MAP compensation for when you do have it at low throttle and throttle pedal progression stuff. I think ITBs are becoming more popular as enthusiasts aren't always looking for all out power these days (Just buy an EV!). I currently adding a DBW motor to my ITBs on the NSX but using the AEM Infinity. Really looking to switch ECUs!
Great stuff! Would like to see the companion vid for spark timing.
Very timely video for me. Working on fitting a set of rb26 itb's to my ka24 s13, and am deciding on engine management at the moment. Been leaning towards Haltech because of what I've seen you do on MCM, and this video shows it's capabilities well. As long as I can find a local tuner that is comfortable with it. Any tips for obtaining a clean Map signal? Current plan is to run a port on the end of each runner post throttle to a collector for vacuum and signal.
121 with a ITB equipped K24 - awesome :)
I think if you had to use the bmw e92 throttles , this would be very different in the conclusion as the power band would be wider and would be worlds better than the conventional intake manifold
Would love to see that test if you guys could do that?
Because 40/42mm itbs are way too small and choke the motor
Love the content by the way 🤜🤛
Hi Scotty, I assume that all of the maps stored in non-volatile memory are copied to working RAM so that you can change everything on the fly? Do you just save it back to NVM when your done with the session? I think that’s the way most ECMs work nowadays. Thanks for the video. 😊
Hey Scotty! What were the shortcuts you were using to manipulate the VE table? I assume arrow keys and some combination of buttons to smooth cells.
Also I'd love to see a video of the effects trumpets have on the intake charge and how to tune it.
I have a 20b FC with ITBs so I'm curious how I will be able to manage the torque curve.
love this tiny car big engine build do them alot for laughs lol
nice setup there, shame to see its hampered by not having a proper trumpet and radius, and horrible mesh "filters" would be very interesting to see a before and after with a good trumpet and suitably sized sausage filter added
Scott the Toyota g16egts is a 3 cylinder turbo that is highly strung however owners of the gr Yaris are queuing for tunes . I think some insight into these engine would be interesting .🇦🇺❤️
Can yall do one of these for a rotary? I feel like rotary tuning is very daunting to me and seeing it done would make a huge difference in how comfortable i am tuning my own vehicle
Actually have some rotary tech in the pipeline so stay tuned!
Hey Scott, why don't you ramp it through the % TPS ranges while building the fuel map and use the AFR % error on the Mainline Dyno and or log to the ECU instead of steady stating the engine building abnormal combustion temps?
Not trying to be a smart ass, but that how I knock them into shape and even if it's tuned via manifold pressure I throttle them through and run faster ramp rates as the load sites get deeper.
Interested in your view point?
Thanks for the great tech and you guys have got great support 👍
Have you used the efi hardware map sensor collector kit for individual throttle bodies? I’ve purchased one for my Crossflow 6 cylinder with Jenvey ITB’s and Haltec 2500 elite. Hoping to have the efi conversion done in the next 2 months. We will be doing back to back test from 4 barrel to ITB’s. I’m tipping a huge gain on the old dinosaur engine. Obviously modern efficient engines the gain would be less.
Scott, is there some sort of balance pipe between each runner or is MAP just from one cylinder? Saw a bloke with a tattoo like yours with a "W" in front. Any idea what "W" Anchor means?
I reckon we need a 15min vid of just audio from this thing
Should I join the runner together post throttle to get an accurate MAP reading or can you hook up the sensor to just one of the runners?
Did you pull the screens off of the TBs to see if they were killing airflow? Almost every one I have seen lose big with screens/filters on them!
Interesting that the throttle bodies are mounted backwards. I guess since the injectors are not used, it works OK?
Precisely! Because we're using the stock injectors and rail, we had the option of reversing the throttles. It made for neater packaging and took up less room.
@@jimbositb Sure does. I'm in the process of fitting a set of 2020 YZF-R6 throttle bodies onto a BMC A-series in a Morris Mini. The cylinder head has been swapped from the BMC 5-port siamese head to an Arden 8-port crossflow head. Should be interesting to have DBW in an old Mini.
It would be awesome to see you tuning a car with an Anti-Lag-System.
Would it be possible to use one of the Haltec ECUs to manage a old style Mini (or MGB or single port VW) that uses siamesed inlet ports with sequential injection?
If you are using an NXP/Freescale/Motorola micro with a TPU, I know it can be done. But does the Haltec programming model support the weird injector timing where all of the fuel charge must be injected when the inlet valves are open?
BUBBLE CAR LETS GOOOO!!!!
Can you talk about dual VVTi and why you may or may not want it? On Toyota it appears that the exhaust cam phazer retards instead of advancing. Also it predominantly seems to be engaged at cold starts.
Have you played with the 2zr/3zr-fae yet? Is Valvematic worth it or better to avoid?
Where do I sign up to get notified about that R1 ITB kit for K series? :)
Would it be similar to tuning a car with real big cams and not much vacuum always had a had time with my civic on cruise and part throttle i had to use the o2 control alot fueling would seem to change up to 14% at the same point in the map only when cruising in one point engine had 7inchs of vacuum
so what youre saying is, i need these R1 ITBS on my 4ag, alright!
Hi Scott , where do I fit the Map sensor . Its an 8 Valve Isuzu with Kawasaki ZX12R ITBs
Thanks. Interesting video. Still trying to understand how the MAP sensor is part of the equation though?
The map sensor does what it always does, and that is to trim the fuel mixture in reference to the available air. However this effect only occurs until the map sensor reading reaches atmospheric pressure. So it does what it always does, as it just assists with fuel volume calculation. As Scotty said it's a needed value for the Volumetric efficiency tuning so it must be used and input it's data. The real world effect is clean afrs, and smooth performance from idle up and while cruising. Basically the difference is on ITB cars the inlet pressure goes to atmospheric pressure much lower in the TPS range than a single throttle setup.
@@MJBOGAN Does that mean he tuned a table based on the MAP sensor input (for use when there's vacuum), before showing us the RPM vs throttle position map?
Scott, the Alpha-N might have been better suited to use DBW APP as the axis vs. Throttle Position in this situation. That way with any feed forward PID of the idle circuit on the DBW or anything else effecting it, it's not changing the mapping as you are still referencing demanded APP.
Does it matter if he’s tuning it in steady state? I’m not sure cruise control would work if the map is based off of pedal vs actual throttle position.
That could only work if the pedal and throttle relationship were linear and never changed. If you changed your pedal to throttle table, your VE table would need retuned. If you base it on DBW TPS or engine demand, it would be accurate always, no matter how you adjusted or map switched your pedal to throttle relationship.
@@nikczzowitz92 this is going to depend on whichever car and how it controls idle circuit and such.
More commonly I'd find a single DBW Throttle Body needing 8-15% throttle to maintain an idle control and doing it this way ends up being a total mess of a map.
This one particular ITB setup had extremely low TPS readings and it worked here very well as Throttle Position.
I would prefer to do it on most cars as DBW APP, and retune the throttle curve as I go to optimize engine air speed, then go back to refine the Alpha-N. More work, but more precise at the end of the day. The last thing I'd want is to chase idle control around or build an inaccurate VE estimation.
@Andy Wyatt Using throttle position on a car that I referred to earlier will have the Alpha-N VE Table of 0-15% all the same or odd nuanced differences which change per given situation. I've seen it as an annoyance in logic, which is why they've been moved to a different axis.
Actual Throttle Body Position moves dynamically to upkeep feed forward on idle and everything else. Unless it's been a relabelling since NSP that I've overlooked.
We could be having a discussion about a verbiage difference here. Actual Throttle Body % moves. APP does not.
So yes, Throttle Position bakes in DBW on NSP the same way that DBW APP would with maintaining a consistent 0% position. DBW TPS does not.
mazda 121
Scotty, do you ever come to the US facility to tune or train other tuners?
These days Scott doesn't need to travel Stateside as we have plenty of tuners and tech personnel at Haltech USA offices that are more than capable of performing all those tasks:) There's plenty of knowledge and know-how between the Lexington and LA offices.
Hey, what's that RX8 engine doing in a 121?
Give it a revin Kevin! Nice.
Sheeeeesh
Thanks for the informative video! I might run one of your Haltech Elite's on my Toyota 4AGE Blacktop 20 Valve with (soon to have) 100mm velocity stacks ;) Please get a supercharged Honda S2000 (preferably 2000 to 2005 cable throttle) for a tune session like this :)
Check out garage 4age if you haven't already. A wealth of info applicable not just to these motors, with dyno run comparisons for pretty much every possible tweak to cams, timing, manifolds, exhaust, runners etx etc. Super dry NZ humour too. 👍
@@richardallen1629 I do watch the channel and like the content. Dyno comparisons of before and after certain parts are very informative :)
Scotty and Hondas name a better combo 🫶🏻🫵🏻
Richo and Nuggets
@@haltechan acceptable response would of been a gtx47 on a b series
Hey guys comparing the r1 itb to others such as toda etc, they are smaller, does this hurt the power level achievable with the r1 itb?
Thank you
I'm curious to know how much power this engine made?
What size of the itbs?
Is there any plans on making a larger dash than the ic7? If so when will it be available?
Anything is possible!
When so I don't waste my money on the ic7 when I could get one larger
Of course, K-swap the world, but ITB's are quite appropriate given it's essentially a Japanese Ford Fiesta.
ITB'd performance Fords are not unusual on my island. =]
Can someone tell me how you stop water and grime from getting in the engine?
The engine is great. The car Mazda 121 is such a Grandma duck car. As tall as its long 🤣🤣
Can you guys add a base map to suit a setup like this? Took ages to make a base map for my car to suit TPS load, and ive prob got heaps wrong even tho the car runs alright after heaps of work. Im not running map in any way except for baro correction, connecting the intake to map sensor gave me all sorts of issues.
We have plenty of base maps in our archives, contact us on support@haltech.com one of the tech guys will be able to help you out with a base map.
That thing is just... Yeah... You know...
Do you have a budget motorcycle ECU for a 2 cylinder 1000cc engine?
At the moment the Elite 750 would be the pick of the bunch
Second! Well technically first and second
Congratulations.
Congratulations.
Need some radius’d trumpets really
Broken heart for no FE3 swap. Zero people do them in the US.
WIZARD!
🍆🌊🌊🌊🌊🌊 retro modern fusion tech with my juicy legendary K24 Honda Motor 💪🏾🤩.... Ive always wondered if a ITB to K24 was viable/doable/simple to do ⚙️🔧