Will any player ever challenge Gretzky for GOAT title? | OverDrive
Вставка
- Опубліковано 25 січ 2021
- Bryan Hayes, Jamie McLennan and Jeff O’Neill are joined by TSN Hockey analyst Ray Ferraro to debate if there is a player that could ever be considered the greatest of all-time ahead of, or in line with, Wayne Gretzky.
- Спорт
He doesn’t only have the record but the 5 below it in each category where he holds one. His stats and achievements from 18-28 is unreal.
80s was a garbage era, just watch some highlights. No defence, no goalies. Players didn't train in the summer, smoked before the games. They had no idea about strength, conditioning or nutrition. Goalies and their equipment were tiny in comparison. No team defence or no concept of different effective defensive schemes.
80s was essentially pond hockey compared to today's game.
@@justinberber9848 and all the best russians and czechs were not allowed to play in the nhl.
and Hasek's achievements from 29-39 is insane
Come on look how goalie was bad if you compare from today. Mcadavid crosby ans ovi are better than gretzky .
@@justinberber9848 1000% agreed with you for me mcdavid crosby and ovechkin are better than gretzky because of all this fact . Put gretzky in todays game im not sure he will perform like that
Its gonna come down to how dominate someone is if someone wins 8 harts in a row and 7 art ross and maybe a selke i say definitely his point records are untouchable however
100% impossible...the voters will never vote that way, even if they deserve it!
@@creepyrobsta5509 true.
@@creepyrobsta5509 true, like the voters couldn't let lidström beat Bobby orr in number of norris trophies. Some guys are holy in the eyes of hockey people.
I saw gretzky play in the Jets arena in 1981, taking on hawerchuk et al... I didnt bother watching the game... Just watched gretz the entire time to see what he did that made him so much better... One example I always remember, he got the puck 5 feet inside the jets blue line... 4 different jets took a stab at either hitting him or knocking him off the puck... He never left an area of a five foot radius, but deked out every obe of those players... Never got touched and the puck never left his stick... Then of course he passed it off and the Oilers scored.... Un-worldly talent...
yep it's one of them situations when, there are loads of super talented players in the nhl, bobby or, gordie how, mario lemiux. but one player always stands above all, like watching Gretzky play was mind boggling.
"You have to be that much better than everybody else"
Yeah, this is the thing. People talk about the high scoring 80's, but they don't look at how much further ahead he was than the competition. For example, look at the leaders in points per game in the 1983-84 season when Gretzky set the record (that still stands today) for highest points per game. Here are the top 5.
5. Michel Goulet 1.63
4. Bryan Trottier 1.63
3. Mike Bossy 1.76
2. Jari Kurri 1.77
1. Wayne Gretzky 2.77
That's right, Gretzky was a full point per game ahead of the next best scorer in the league. That is dominance that Crosby, McDavid, whoever you want to name, can't match. It'll take that level of dominance for someone to take the GOAT title from Gretzky.
He's the most dominant athlete in North American sports ever, period.
If you're talking about Wayne, there's absolutely an argument to be made there. I've felt that way, too, for years. The way he assaulted the NHL individual record books AND played for 4 championship squads is a combination we've not seen much of from any other athlete in any other sport. Including Jordan.
There a good argument to be made but saying there no argument for anyone else period is asinine. Michal Jordan 10x Scoring Titles to Gretz 5x Scoring titles, Jordan 6 FMVP Gretz 2x FMVP, Regular season MVP Gretz has at 9 Jordan 5 albeit a single player can dominate in basketball more than hockey Jordan ran basketball in the Reg and post season
@@aahZeiK 5 scoring titles for gretzky? he has like 10.
@@grizlyspectr5695 Scoring titles are by scoring goals he only has 5 of them in the NBA they don’t combine Points and assists for scoring titles it’s from scoring the basketball ......
@@grizlyspectr5695 Yea lmao he has 10.... and 8 MVPs consecutively, ridiculous. Nobody will ever come close in any sport to that level of dominance.
Probably hasn’t born yet. Like you need someone with McDavid Speed, Ovechkin goal scoring ability combined. And someone that can raise the puck
and change the NHL rules to increase scoring
And a new era of goalies who can’t bend their knees
And the playmaking ability of Crosby
Barzal speed, Bossy scoring ability. I fixed it for you because I'm a nice guy!
@@jzimm1075 McDavid is faster 😁👍
I think Loui Erickson already has
Who?
Never heard of her
Gretzky had the highest hockey I.Q of any player. He played the game like a chess match. Mario Lemieux was the most physically talented player. Gordie Howe was the most complete all round player. He could score, pass, hit, fight, and his longevity is a thing of legend.
Gordie Howe played with a flat Blade for the first 15 years of his career. He'd have 900+ Goals and 2000+ points with a curved blade.
@@jeffreykaufmann2867 And Mario would've had 1000+ goals and 2300 points in his career if he didn't get injured. But he did. And Howe didn't play with a curved blade.
@@11DNA11 I said that Howe played with a flat blade for 1st 15 years.
@11DNA11 how many points Gretzky would have had had he remained an Oiler for 20 years?
I'd say if McDavid throws up a few 150 point seasons and wins a few cups, along with all the art ross and mvps...he's already considered the most talented player to enter the NHL and greatest skater ever. He could get there but he has to turn it up even more next several years.
I would say their is already the argument of mcdavid being the most talented play ever. He realistically does almost everything better than anyone else ever. Yah the success isn’t there, but it doesn’t mean it’s his fault
@Jacob Harty yes but I wouldn’t say Gretzky was the best goal scorer ever. He was crazy, but there were better pure scorers than him. Mcdavid doesn’t necessarily need to be the best shooter in the league to be the best, but man, does mcdavid still have a good shot
@@ELias-vn5yv Most talented player ever is not the best player ever.
I love Connor but I have to argue that Mario Lemieux is the greatest talent of all time. The guy was literaly superhuman in is ability to recover from surgery, injuries and cancer. Talent is dominating the league after you miss 42 months of hockey and lose a touch of speed and agility after 2 back surgeries and hip flexor pain.
Still till this day I haven't seen anyone at the level Mario was at even at 60-70 percent health. Insane talent. He made scoring goals look easy even at 35 years old. But, I'll say that Connor is something special.
Gretzky is the greatest passer ever. His passing skill was better than anybody in any era. If he played today, he might not score nearly as much, but he would still lead the league with assists as his teammates get a zillion perfect pass one-timer opportunities.
wilt chamberlain averaged 50.4 points per game one year in the nba but no one considers him the basketball goat
Yep that man put in serious effort, also played without the 3 point line
I consider him the GOAT
Cuz he only won one ring. MJ is the goat right now but Lebron might catch him if he gets more rings
@@6ixman259
I’m curious why so many automatically think the answer to the question as it relates to basketball is Jordan, when there are legitimately at least 3-4 others who fit the bill.
Define “no one”. That’s as ridiculous as the Jordan fanboys who claim that “everyone” believes their hero is the best ever.
Gretzky played in an era where goalies still drank beer and didn't make constant use of the butterfly or hybrid goalie styles. Most of them were still standing up. Gretzky couldn't rack up near the same amount of points in the modern era.
the thing is he redefined how people play today. if there's no Gretzky there's no ovi, sid or mcdavid
Some old guy tried to tell me that the goalies where just as good back then than I just laughed and said stats don’t lie. This was this summer buddy was loaded. still funny asf to me though😂😂
So why didn't everybody score 92 goals or 215 points? Why only him?
That doesn't explain why everyone was miles behind him in his own era. His best season he scored 74 points more than the second placed player in scoring for crying out loud. "Goalies we're shit." isn't a legit argument because everyone faced the same goalies.
If someone comes up with a percentage based system where it shows how much better the best player is than the second,third and so forth . Its not pure points numbers its how far ahead of their peers in their era they are
The era a player plays in makes a difference.. You have 4th liners scoring 50 points in the 80's... You have to look at more than pure points.
Really dude?
@@andygibbersony You have that shitty username an you say really?
Look at the Panthers of 2022, 50 point 3rd, 4th liners....
some Gretzky fun facts...he did that in every league he ever played in. His one year in the OHL , with Sault Ste Marie, his points that year still stands as the record. Almost 50 years later. You gotta understand, his first 3 years in the NHL, when he was destroying those records, the old guard of the NHL absolutely HATED HIM AND THAT TEAM. The Oilers played a very wide open "European" style of hockey...their uniforms were very "European" looking, especially those goofy JOFA helmets they all wore. Plus they were a WHA cast off team that merged into the NHL...that annoyed alot of people back then. He broke Espositos goal record by 16 goals!!!....broke Bobby Orrs assist record his second year at 19. The Oilers got so good when there were off setting penalties and it was 4 on 4, that the league actually changed that rule to slow the Oilers down...when there were offsetting penalties, it just stayed 5 on 5, thats how pissed they were about what they were doing. There was no cable back then..no ESPN...some of the games wernt even televised locally in Edmonton then...only way you found out what he was doing was to read the box score in the next days paper becuase they were on Mountain time...youd read what he was doing and just think "WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON IN WESTERN CANADA?"...Sports Illustrated Sportmans of the year..A.P. Athlete of the Decade..it was an amazing time...he no doubt saved that league...
Gretzky basically made the NHL a viable league in North America. Therefore, he is the best.
By virtue of Wayne agreeing to a trade to Los Angeles, a then-struggling franchise in the continent's second-largest market, the game expanded to places where it had never been more than a curiosity, and the number of kids playing hockey in places like California exploded. As a result the talent pool got much deeper, and the game we see now is played at a much higher level. Wayne's contributions to the game went far beyond revolutionizing the game with his unique style and re-writing the record book
@@devilsadvocacy
FACTS!!! The combination of his achievements, contributions and impact are immeasurable. We've never seen anything else like it from another superstar pro athlete. MAYBE Pele. But, that didn't work out as well for NASL in the '70's as what Wayne did in the '80's for NHL.
No one one comes close to the greatest player conversation, but Ovechkin is already the greatest goal scorer of all time, he may not end up with the highest number but with context considered of era's, goalies he is it. He will still end up in second by the time he is done, probably in the low to mid 800's. Then when you consider he's basically missed two and half seasons through no fault of his own, he easily would have it. If you go by his career average and apply it to the seasons he's missed he'd already be over 800 right now.
The only people who could really have challenged Gretzky for best ever were Orr and Lemieux but injuries took them both out early so its impossible to say.
I only agree with that because the Great One said it himself :D
So just for fun, while listening I checked out Era Adjusted Points. I never would have figured Norm Ulman to be rated (on that particular site) at #32 all time. Dave Keon, who played at the same time as Ulman on the Leafs, came in at #103. Wouldn't have figured that.
I did a rough analysis once in my spare time where I put the current league goals per game averages against Gretzky's numbers and concluded that he wouldn't have been as productive (I think 2,024 points vs. 2,857, which he did get). But as you see, he would still be the leading scorer in the history of hockey even if he played the last 20 years rather than 1979-99. He would probably still be considered the greatest ever.
Remember, he put up a point per game on a bad New York Rangers team, at the height of the dead puck era, at age 37.
Of course there's a lot that statistics can't show, and it's not a perfect comparison. But based on that analysis, I think you could make an argument that someone would have to get 2,050 points in today's game or roughly comparable to that to be considered as great an offensive player as Gretzky. That's not the whole story, but no one, not even Crosby or McDavid, is approaching that number.
What about Gordie Howe?
The 1970s and Before wasn't as high scoring as the 80s also. So if one wants to adjust Players ' points in Today's Era then you got to do the same for the Players in the Previous Eras:1940s-1970s
That's the GOAT factor right there - put him in today's game or put today's players in yesterday's game and Gretzky is still by far the best!
Ray's point was spot on
The 86-87 season was the most dominant season Wayne Gretzky had. Look at the scoring leaders for that year and compare it to the 21-22 season. The top 20 scores are very similar in stats. Now picture McDavid scoring 196 points. That’s how many he would’ve needed to have outpaced the league the same Gretzky did.
Without the strike & two Covid seasons, at his career pace of .61 GPG, his would of been 805. One COULD count the 04-05 season after he drafted, that would be 856. Ovie would of been more than challenging it now
I been watching NHL for 40 years and i never heard anyone - media or friends argue that one player is better than another cuz he had more points. I think noodles is making that up. Gretzky was just on another level when it came to stats plus he won cups yet i still have heard more people choose Orr or Lemieux over gretzky as greatest ever. Its just hard to argue against the insane rate he put up points and how recognized he was outside of Canada and outside of hockey
There is literally no argument for Lemieux over Gretzky. Even defensively. Gretzky even beats him in plus/minus by a huge margin, both in season and career. Both in regular season and playoffs. And Gretzky demolishes Lemieux in even strength points per game average, even in the playoffs when it counted the most.
You can't judge Wayne on his points but just think 9 straight hart tropheys 8 stright scoring titles.If someone comes around and dominates in that way I think you can put him in the discussion,
Still got few rings
Good to hear about one of Gretzky's records being chased, that's bearly gonna happen!!!
My first point: His era had a lot to do with it. Gretzky played against much less fast and powerful players and much weaker goalies. If you took a prime Wayne Gretzky and put him in today’s league I think he would be good but not great.
This brings me to my second point: despite era we all call Gretzky the goat and that’s why people who discredit Bill Russell (NBA) because of his era is disrespectful.
That era argument is just plain stupid. If it was so easy to score goals back then why was gretzky always on top of the table with a comfortable lead? Why did nobody else even get close until that mario kid?
If you brought jean beliveau to 2021 he wouldnt be able to do shit. If you put tobias rieder to the 50s hed propably hit 150 points every season. You shouldnt compare players from diffirent eras DIRECTLY because the younger one will always come out on top in a 1v1. You compare the players to their PEERS and see how they do against them. Rieder is a sack of potatoes compared to other current nhlers while beliveau was miles ahead of his colleagues from 65 years ago.
@@gamergod3378 if you read my second point, I said I think Gretzky is the goat. You can’t argue though that if you put Gretzky in today’s game he wouldn’t have scored near as many points, and if you put McDavid in Gretzky’s era he would have scored 4000 points.
@@puckstopper1937
McDavid wouldn't be McDavid back then. No one worked out or trained or dieted the way they do now back then. Gretzky would be different today too. He'd be bigger, stronger and faster.
@@puckstopper1937 You're all over the place here. How can you say Gretzky is the goat then argue McDavid would have gotten 4000 points? That would make him the goat. You really don't need to talk about what a current player would do then, or what Gretzky would do now. You simply need to understand the context in which Gretzky did his thing which was, until Mario Lemieux came along, winning scoring titles by 60-80 points a year. He was wrapping up scoring titles before February. Grasping that is how you rate the player...
the equivalent of getting 215 points today would be getting 150-160
.......no
and mcdavid was on pace to do that this year.
Iam pretty sure the equivalent would be 215
Maybe one day but gretzky blew everyone out of the water when it came to vision and offensive production. He was just that much better than everyone else. i think once we see someone who truly just out produces every other player and that can maintain a decent two way game, then we can bring that player into that conversation. Unfortunately i don’t think we will see a player like that for a long time. Gretzky was a once in a lifetime player, historical stats, holds numerous records, and has the accolades to back it all up. We might have to wait another 50 years to see that kind of player again
Not even 50 years is enough. I don't think we'll ever see someone like him.
@@11DNA11 probably not. the game has changed too much. Maybe if they continue to decrease goalie equipment size overtime like they did years ago, scoring could slowly increase
I think that’s exactly what the argument should be for best players. Not based on totals, but comparability to the players around them.
For example, this last season, look at how many more points draisaitl had than anyone else. Or kutcherov the year before. You could say that, at least offensively, they were both the best player of the year in their respective seasons. So if draisaitl had 9 more seasons exactly like last year, putting up such higher numbers than everyone else around him, that’s when you can put him in those conversations of best of all time
have u SEEN my NHL 21 be a pro?
Day 4 of asking them to do a quiz of them pranking Sam telling him every answer he says is correct
Ray said it the best, do not compare errors. Compare the people that you are currently playing against, and the gap is so huge that we can’t even fathom what it is. I was never a big fan of number 99, but as I grew older, I have so much respect for what he did. He Scored 200 points when people were saying 100 points was a great accomplishment, think about that nobody in this generation has that big of a gap and it’s because of all the technology, nutrition, etc. but he dominated in a way that no one else did so I guess we have to give respect for that. I know that you are all hockey guys, but you have to watch what the joker is doing in basketball and compare it historically, just by the numbers what this man is doing. I am Croatian and you may or may not know our political history, but I have to give respect for this man because he is breaking NBA records and no one is acknowledging that he is today’s version of Wayne in basketball.
I mean Gretzky's records are untouchable but McDavid is the most skilled player of all time by 10,000,000 years
Sid is more skilled than mcdavid
@@AntVandy Yup I agree. McDavid is bigger , faster, strong but I think Sid is more skilled. Not by much , I mean McDavid is incredible.
@@Williaem00 Crosby is def stronger
@@Williaem00 mcdavid is taller than sid but he weights less than sid mcdavid is 6'1 193 sid is 5'11 200
Ray made a great point. If it was easier to score then why didn't everyone do it. One record that will never be beat is 50 goals in 39 games.
Not true! Orr and Lemieux better than Gretzky! In 1980s Gretzky's time NHL 8 goals per game! So easy to score! Goalies were bad and small! Ovechkin ERA NHL only 5,3-6 goals per game! If Ovechkin had played in high scoring 1980s he would had scored over 1000 goals easily! Auston Maythews have scored 52 goals in 57 games this season! If Matthews had played in 1982 he would had scored over 100 goals breaking Gretzky's 92 goals season record! In 1980s Gretzky's time 90% of the NHL players were from Canada only! Today under 60% of the NHL pkayers from Canada! Much tougher league today! The Soccer game 250 million players! Gretzky's Canada only 650000 hockey players! That means the Soccer All Stars would beat Gretzky easily 100 game series 93-7! Soccer 4 billion Fans around The World! Cricket 2 billion fans! Gretzky played only against players from Canada! So Gretzky is no Goat of All of Sports! Gretzky was the greatest in Canada only not the whole world!!
Right now. You can put Crosby and Ovi’s Career points together and you still are 300 points behind gretzky
Dif era
@@AntVandy sure, different era, but they also weren't as dominant as Gretzky. You can add Brett Hull and Guy Lafleur's career points (essentially from the same era as Gretzky) together and are still more than 100 points behind Gretzky.
I have never laughed so hard listening to the last stuff about the winger waiting to be killed as the D lined him up to take his head off. I never made the NHL, but grew up in that era playing at the AAA level on D, and as a D you just use to put your hands closer together on the stick and just aim for the helmet of the winger on the board, timed just as he got the puck. The other thing you could do was time it as he touched the puck to the circling centerman and try to decapitate him as he got it, but that guy had way more skill - good times - but as a D, the payback came when the huge winger dumped the puck into your corner and you had to go get it.
If you watch one of Gretzkys old games from the 80s, then watch McDavid play you will see how ridiculous it is to compare the two
Yeah you will see how much better Gretzky is
Yeah u will see how shit the goalies were compared to today
@@Nicolai488 Gretzky would still be as dominant if he was trained the same also like nowadays
What would be ridiculous is if you gave McDavid Gretzky’s heavy wooden Titan stick and his lumbering skates and equipment, and took away all his modern no touch rules and no two line off sides. Or give Gretzky all of McDavid’s equipment, training and rules in the 80s. Yes, then bring it on....
@@harrisonsmith5983 Gretzky does not play better than McDavid. Is that his fault of course not. It was completely impossible for that to happen and that's why you can't compare them
You should do a trophies quiZ
rewatching some of Gretz highlights, in the time where it was a physical era, he never found himself caught in those compromising 'positions' in order to make plays, but rather I think his laterial skating and ability to pivot, alloted him the ability to make space and plays that made everyone better.
He definately was not the fastest skater, hardest shooter, nor physical - but played a game that I think Gudreau copied, which at the time made him that much better than everyone else in the offensive 3rd.
Gretzky was way too smart for the rest of the league.
He saw the ice like no other. Imagine being a goalie, and Gretzky is coming down the wing. And you NEED to know where everyone else is, because he'd destroy you if you didn't.
On more than one occasion (3 times), Gretzky not only led the league in scoring with his assists alone, but also simultaneously led the league in goals. Take 1986/87 for example. Scores 62 goals to lead the league just to prove he still could after scoring a ridiculous 163 assists (and “only” 52 goals) the year before. But take away ALL his lead leading 62 goals, and he still wins the Art Ross with his 121 assists alone. Totally nuts. No one else has ever done that before or since. And probably never will.
In my eyes for someone to be better than Gretzky in todays hockey, they would have to put up consistently 65-75 goals every season and have at least 150+ points.
The closest lately to 150 points is Kucherev in 2019. No one has eclipsed 150 in over 2 decades. Gretzky scored over 200 several times :D
His scoring numbers will never be broken.. I mean look at Ovechkin, probably the best scorer ever, and he still needs like 5 seasons of 40 goals average to even sniff Waynes record.
That being said, just watch the competition he played against. The average NHL player nowdays is so much better than back then. Don't even get me started on goalies.
Sure Gretzky was great, and he was SO MUCH BETTER than his competition, but if you put him in todays NHL, i'm pretty sure his numbers would drop considerably - probably around 1500 pts for career which is still great, but no way no how he would be able to score nearly 100 goals a season against todays defenses. Not happening.
If the Goalies were so bad how come nobody (Apart from Gretzky) got more than 108 points in the 86-87 Season? Gretzky 183 points. Kucherov got 128 a few years ago. Only1500 for Gretzky! LOL. Crosby has 1400 and he led the league in Assists only once. Gretzky 16x leading Assist Man.
Even if Ovi was on track to break 99's all time goal record, he'll have opposing Canadian players along the way who will make it their mission to stop him from breaking that record. Not b/c they're Gretzky-ites, but b/c Wayne to them is the pride of Canada. He symbolizes that country & its pastime that is ice hockey.
Ovie is a better goal scoring player. Bar none. Doesn't make him overall better
That is the most Canadian 💩 I’ve ever read in my life. You can’t be serious. Instead of actually playing their system like their coach implemented and trying to win, Canadian players are going to focus on stopping Ovi so that they can preserve the goal scoring record for Gretzky.
WOW 🤦♂️.
My opinion i say in terms of stats ovi and for success as a player sid.
The answer is yes and mario lemiuex, bobby orr, and gordie howe are the challengers
Mario Lemieux is the goat!
No doubt
If he never got sick I truely believe he would have surpassed Wayne.
@@thrash208 yeah ez if he just got to play full career
No
Let’s see Mario score 163 assists in a season. Let’s see Mario score the most goals in a season while simultaneously winning the scoring title with his assists alone. Let’s see Mario score 1000 points in the least amount of games ever (424 games) and then score another 1000 points in the 2nd least number of games ever (433 games). Let’s see Mario score the fastest 50 goals ever (39 games) and also the 2nd fastest (42 games). Let’s see Mario score over 100 assists ELEVEN years in a row instead of just once, ala Bobby Orr. Let’s see Mario score 500 goals in only 575 games (the least number of games to 500), and then proceed to be the fastest to 600 and 700, and 800 goals, too. Let’s see Mario score 1.84 PPG in the playoffs for his career. Let’s see Mario win the 1987 Canada Cup scoring title (and MVP) when they played together for the same team for the same number of games. Let’s see Mario beat Gretzky in head to head competition in goals, assists, and points (and beat Gretzky in points just with his assists alone in these head to head games).
The list goes on...
Era vs era? Hard comparison.
Any 4th liner who can raise the puck
Gretzky is up there but I'm so sick at how they look at just total points. Gretzky played in an era where scoring was super high.
Howe played mostly during the Original Six era where checking was tighter.
Someone did some calculation and showed that the year that Howe got 49 goals in 70 games, when you pro-rate that to the 1980s and 80 games, that's 96 goals. That's more than Gretzky's 92!
Plus, he was also well-rounded. He could play defense, hit, fight... none of those things Gretzky was known to be great at.
For sure, Gretzky's the best playmaker ever.
Sure... if someone comes along with twice as many points as anyone else for 10 years, then you can use their name in the same sentence as the Great One or the Magnificent one. Or if another defenseman comes along and wins the scoring title, beating all forwards. Otherwise forget it.
The should stop trying to lower standards to create artificial media G.O.A.T. ...
If Gretzky never scored a goal he’d still:
Be the all time points leader
Have 11 straight 100 point seasons
Have four scoring titles (without scoring a single a goal!).
And he’s still got more those goal things than everybody too.
Not until a player comes along who so electrifies the sport that it increases like 50% in size and market. Like if the NHL expanded to Europe or Asia because someone was lighting up the league to the point non hockey fans in those markets knew who he was and wanted to watch hockey and interest was enough to have expansion teams in those cities.
If it wasn’t for Gretzky moving to LA, there wouldn’t be teams in Nashville, Dallas, Phoenix, etc. so it would have to be someone who did something similar.
If you go off intangibles, Mark Messier also belongs in the conversation. Third all-time in points, six rings (two without Gretzky, who never won it without Mess), and a well-deserved reputation for grit, leadership and clutch play
MR HOCKEY….. was in the Top 5 for points 20 years straight. Never will be done again
Gretzky won 8 straight Hart Trophies (MVPs). Would have been 10 straight if not for his 16 game injury in 1987/88. He still won 9 Harts in his first 10 years anyway. The stuff made of Disney. Not to mention 2 Conn Smythes (playoff MVPs) and a Canada Cup MVP, 3 all-star MVPs, a Rendezvous 87 MVP, and 5 Pearsons (player voted MVP) to go along with those 9 Harts.
*That’s 21 MVPS in 20 seasons.*
No player today comes close to that level of domination.
Even if he played in this era, that means he would be raised with today’s gear, and techniques that are proven to work, I think that’s what most people forget when talking about eras
Sure but it's about the average now every guy in the NHL is a monster with a ton of ressources the league is more global than ever taking the top talents from everywhere it's much harder to stand out even if you're a ¨99¨ player when every guy is a 85 compared to back in the days when you had ¨60¨ players eating hot dogs and smoking before games.
Yeah, but when you put his numbers in today's era or put today's greats in his era, he's still the best. The only one better in goals is Ovi (shoot, if Ovi played in the 80s/90s, he'd have scored over 1000)
If players today had the same goalies to shoot at and the same defense to get by what would their totals be? How many of his points would be routine saves for an OHL goalie these days. Of course there is the argument that it should be based on how much better you are than your peers.
It could even be argued that Mario was better than Wayne after he entered the league, so how much greater was Wayne then everybody else?...Wayne may have been lucky that Mario got cancer. I swear they just do this shit for clicks.
Gretzky was an amazing player and throughout his career, the only true compatriot to him was Lemieux. That being said those point totals are inflated by virtue of playing in a high scoring league. If Gretzky played today he would score over 100-130 points a season but wouldn't sniff his 80s numbers
Gretzky was already a 100 point player (102 points and 97 points) at age 35 and 36, as a shadow of his former self, in a lower scoring league than today. He scored 90 points at age 37, one season away from retirement. Again - in the dead puck era. I find it hard to believe a prime 25 year old Gretzky wouldn’t destroy his 35-37 year old self.
So I guess a lot of other players scored 50 goals in the first 39 games and had 212 points.
I
@@alelectric2767 - Prior to Gretzky, the fastest ever was Richard and Bossy, both of whom scored 50 in exactly 50 games. And this was in the history of the entire league. Then along comes Gretzky, and beats that number 3 times in a 4 year span, haha (scored 50 in 39, then 50 in 42, and then 50 in 49). Not just that, but in 11 less games the first time. Ridiculous.
@@michaelgriffiths8068 Completely ridiculous. For someone to be the greatest at any sport they have to be ahead of their time. In Gretzky case he was way ahead of it. People can argue about goalie ability and equipments but he’s part of the reason why the goalies changed.
If Kucherov could get 87 Assists in one Season then Gretzky who is the greatest playmaker of all time would get 110+ Assists/Season in today's Era.
Unless Jagar plays until he 50 and wins 2-3 cups....but realistically Lemieux and Ovechkin healthy careers might have passed Gretzky but highly doubtful now unless NHL rules help increase scoring.
It's not that you would have to beat Gretzky's points total record to challenge to be considered the GOAT, but you would have to dominate the game to a similar degree. If you look at Gretzky's top 3 seasons points wise you get: 85-86 season 215pts, second in scoring M.Lemiux at 141pts -> 81-82 season at 212pts, second in scoring M.Bossy at 147 -> 84-85 season 208pts, second in scoring J.Kurri at 135. Lemiux, Bossy and Kurri were all fantastic players, all in the Hall of Fame and Gretzky was just far ahead. If a guy comes starts beating MacKinon, McDavid and Kucherov in scoring by +25% consistently, they earn their GOAT status, but in order for that to happen they would truly have to be extraordinary in many ways.
You've got it exactly. By percentage (which is the way to go to take away the difference in scoring league wide across seasons) Gretzky's most dominant year was 1986-87. He had 183 points and second place was Kurri with 108, followed by Lemieux and Messier at 107. That's him being 69% higher than everybody else. The 108 and 107 point totals wouldn't look out of place as an Art Ross winner these days, so just imagine if someone these days had a 183 point season. That is the dominance we are talking about with Gretzky. And for the record, Gretzky had 4 other seasons where he had 50%+ more points than 2nd in scoring.
Reduce the size of goalie equipment
Sure, the next time a player has enough assists to lead the league in scoring without a single goal, but also scores 50...they can join the conversation.
On more than one occasion, Gretzky not only led the league in scoring with his assists alone, but also simultaneously led the league in goals. Totally nuts. No one else has ever done that before or since. And probably never will.
@@michaelgriffiths8068 yeah, I think it was 3 times he accomplished what you said, plus the season mike ring was referring to about the 50 goals. If you only count his assists, Gretzky would have 4 scoring championships, the 3rd highest single season point total of all time (behind 2 of Mario's seasons), and the most career points. He would also be the 2nd highest career playoff scorer behind only Messier.
@@kentmartin9289 - Pure insanity. To lead the league in assists is one thing. To lead the league is goals is also impressive. To lead the season in points with your assists alone is something only Gretzky has ever done. But to simultaneously lead the league in points with your assists alone while *also* leading the league in goals? Is there even an adjective for that kind of season? Someone once said Gretzky made the impossible seem mundane. Pretty accurate.
Nobody else can even be considered until they score 50 goals in 38 games.
easier to score back then
@@Flashyfinancier entirely untrue. NHL goals per season averages trend only up since Gretzky’s era.
@@markoutwithmark lies
Not true! Lemieux and Orr better than Gretzky! In 1982 NHL 8 goals per game! Do easy to score! Goalies were bad and small! Ovechkin ERA 5,3-6 goals per game! So much difficult to score! In 1980s Gretzky's time 90% NHL players were from Canada only! Now under 60% of the NHL players from Canada! The Soccer game 250 million players! Gretzky's Canada only 650000 hockey players! That means The Soccer All Stars would beat Gretzky easily 100 game series 93-7! Soccer 4 billion fans around World! Cricket 2 billion fans! Gretzky played only against players from Canada! Can not be the greatest!
What would a 1500 point guy who won 5-10 selkes do in this conversation? Probably a few harts, ted lindsays, and conne smythes.
This is one of the most absurd video titles I've ever seen. There's this guy named Bobby Orr. And he is Canadian. Check him out, I think you'll be impressed. In New England he is the GOAT (and Tom Brady).
everyone knows bobby orr but he isn’t near gretzky
@@kweqwequgtweqfq4694 Everyone does not know that. Orr doesn't compare to Gretzky in points (no one does) or longevity, but does in talent. And with the exception of Babe Ruth in baseball 100 years ago, no one in sports in the U.S. has so revolutionized his like Orr did. Before Orr, there were only a handful of indoor rinks in all of New England, which has a population about the same size as Ontario. Now there are several hundred. Before Orr, in the 1960s, there was one American in the NHL; now it's about 25%. There are kids now in New England wearing Orr jerseys, whose forty-something fathers are too young to have seen Orr play. (I can't imagine hockey will ever be the most popular sport in the U.S. like in Canada, but in some northern American towns it is.) And what does Orr think about his legacy? It's hard to say; he's the most over-the-top humble person I can think of.
This just goes to show you how well he saw the game and how well he controlled each game he played. It was Gretzky's ice that everyone played on. Any other sport you have someone else coming in the next generation that tops whoever the GOAT was prior to them... But not the NHL. No one will even come close to breaking Wayne's records.
Might wanna check that goal record there bud
If Mario is close to Wayne with freaking Cancer....then maybe he wasn't as dominate as you think. Wayne, Mario, Orr, Howe, Crosby, McDavid, Mackinnon, etc, etc, etc could all be argued as the GOAT by using different metrics, so the debate means nothing!
@@creepyrobsta5509 Mario got cancer towards the end of his career. Orr was only a prolific defender that changed the way defensemen played the game. The latter three will never come close to Gretzky's numbers. Like at all.
@@avadakedavra69 Lemieux never in his career played a full 80 game season, there were a few in the high 70s but he had a lot of injuries.
@@newfie1613 even so, Gretzky beats out Mario in career PPG, and single season PPG. Gretzky has the top 2 and 7 of the top 9 (Mario with 3rd and 5th). And when people bring up PPG, I think they underestimate the grind of an 80 game season. Just look at Gretzky's 2 injury shortened seasons. In 87-88 and 92-93 Gretzky played 64 and 45 games and then went on to have a couple of his best playoff performances (43 points in 1988 Stanley Cup win, and 40 points in his only post Oilers Stanley Cup finals). Undoubtedly the healthy career has a lot to do with Gretzky's records for accumulating points, both in season and career, but his PPG still outshines Mario despite the grind of a long career, playing a higher percentage of his career after age 30 than Mario, etc.
If we look at Gretzkys career numbers post Edmonton its clear that being on the best team, with the best goalie, really helped pad his stats.
I’d say Gretzky’s post Edmonton numbers had more to do with playing 9 seasons in his 30s (mostly well past his prime), and suffering a career threatening back injury... Yet he still won 5 scoring titles (3 regular season and 1 playoff and 1 Canada Cup), and 3 MVPs (a Hart Trophy and 2 All Star game MVPs). He also scored more points than anyone in the decade of 1990-1999. So still not too shabby.
Gretzky made them the best team. Look at all the players he played with - the Kurris, the Coffeys, the Messiers (twice), the Fuhrs, the Robitailles, etc. and NONE of them would be on the all time greatest list without Gretzky. Another GOAT factor is he made his teammates better. Also there are plenty of players who had great teams - look at the Red Wings' 2002 team which featured like 12 of the 100 best players ever (albeit all well past their prime - except a young Pavel Datsyuk). In any case it takes a great player to make a great team and Gretzky played on 2 of them - Edmonton and LA
Do you think some of this might have to do with a greater parity in the league? In today's salary cap era you could make the debate if the Oilers of the 80s could not exist. So...Imagine if Gretzky didn't have Messier shutting down opponents and he had to take on the role of a "shutdown center" would he have shined out as much as he did? Would he have had the opportunity to shine on offense the way he did? Just food for thought.
It has already happened - his name Bobby Orr - as Milt Schmitz once said put 5 Bobby Orr's on the ice against 5 Howes, 5 Gretzky's, 5 Richards it wouldn't even be close. It's really ridiculous to compare era's in the first place.
Gretzky retired with over 2800 points, which means you'd have to get 100 points a season for 28 years to tie him
And next closest guy is a hall of fame career in stats behind him. A little under 1000 points behind..LOL
An even if you averaged 143 points a season for 20 years you’d still be behind him lol
No. Just no.
Fun fact. The record for most regular season points in one season not named Wayne or Mario, belongs to a player by the name of Steve. Steve Yzerman.
Never, the game isnt the same anymore
the talent of every player has improved since then. goalies are so much better and so are defense. gretzky would have a much different point total if he was playing now.
I brought this up with my friend because I was with you, but then he brought it to my understanding that that is excactly the point. I told him “I think people are better than Gretzky was because of all the technology we have today” and he said “well that’s why Gretzky is so much better because he was that good without the technology”
@@griffbrown3825 what technology? A carbon stick?
@@griffbrown3825 my argument is what Wayne would do if he had today's tech and training
@@harrisonsmith5983 But you also have to ask what would Wayne do without an enforcer helping him? Everyone just call Crosby Cindy, yet he's way tougher than Wayne ever was. Not trying to devalue the Great One, but Mack, McDavid, Ovi, Crosby, etc, etc are so much tougher, and by fighting their own battles it means they get injured easier.
@@creepyrobsta5509 I think the effect of enforcers helping Gretzky is greatly exaggerated. He was tough to hit. Since he was 6 years old he was playing against players much bigger than him, so he developed a way to play that helped him survive. Whether he was a 6 year old playing with 10 year olds, a 14 year old playing with 20 year olds, or a 17 year old playing with grown men, he had to be tricky to hit. He wasn't the fastest in a straight line, but he was great at taking sharp corners and evading players, that coupled with his awareness on the ice is what made him durable and able to play over 1400 games in the NHL, despite people thinking when he was in Junior and the WHA that he would get murdered in the NHL due to his small size.
Gretzky got 90 points as a 39-year-old his last season in 1999 in the peak of the dead puck era. He would be top five today based off of that. People like to dumb on 99 because of the era he played in and how McDavid or Ovi would crush back then. How would 99 do today's game with the better diet, equipment, and style of play? He would still be 25 points better than anyone else in 2021 if he played during his peak.
more assists than any player has goals and assists, as well as being the all time leading goal scorer. i haven’t mentioned his art ross trophies or hart memorial trophies because the guys resume is just plain ridiculous
Honestly I think Bobby Orr
Would need rule changes or some kind of revolutionary change for someone to match his career.. the players are all too good as are the systems. If he played today he wouldn't match himself either but gretz would do great in today's game as well with no holding etc
Do Stanley Cup wins count?
anyone saying ovechkin is completely laughable, even on just the goal scoring end.
Yes
If McDavid averages 1.5 pts a game and wins 5+ cups then yes
I don’t think anyone will challenge Gretzky. The only player in today’s game that are even close but yet so far are Crosby, Ovechkin and Mcdavid.
The closest any one was ever to Gretzky was Mario Lemieux he was the one that truly had a chance against Gretzky’s records but because of his terrible injury’s and cancer he didn’t have the chance. Modern day so far the closest was Crosby but he still fell short. Mcdavid has a chance but I don’t think he’s going to be the goat
You mean like say...Bobby Orr?
I think it is very likely that Gretzky stays the GOAT effectively forever, but I think people should be OK with saying things like Crosby is the greatest of the last 20 years, or in the future say so-and-so is the greatest of the last 50 years. Greatest of all time should be of all time. I see some people say their personal greatest of all time is whoever, and they say older players aren't on the list because they didn't see them play. So just say your guy is the greatest of the last 30 years, or 10 years, or whatever your timespan is.
It wasn’t like he was dishing out more assist, he was scoring more than anyone else. That would be like Jordan winning the scoring title and rebounding title
Mike Bossy & Mario 100% both would've scored more goals then 99 but both retired super early because of injury
Then why did Gretzky score 200, 300, 400, 500 and 600 goals in less games than it took Bossy (or anyone else for that matter)? Would love to see Bossy score 500 goals in only 575 games like Gretz did. Why is it that Bossy never had a 70+ goal season and Gretzky had *FOUR* of them? Why is it that Gretzky made it to 80+ and 90+ goals and Bossy couldn’t even hit 70? And the really funny part? Gretzky was winning scoring titles with his assists alone while scoring goals at a faster rate than Bossy and obliterating his 50 in 50 marks *twice* - 50 in 39 games and 50 in 42. Heck, Gretzky even scored 50 in 49 in 1984/85, so he actually beat Bossy’s 50 in 50 *THREE* times! Ouch.
@@michaelgriffiths8068 Because Wayne played in the crappy era where goalies sucked, what did Wayne do when he was 35 or 36 years old? Even Wayne admits Mario was a better scorer then him LOL
He literally admits it LOL, It's on UA-cam
@@Nada-vk4pk - I guess you missed the part that I was talking about Bossy. And yes, he played in exactly the same era as Gretzky. Unless you are now eliminating Bossy from your original argument?
@@michaelgriffiths8068 Nope, Bossy was a better goal scorer then Gretzky
Wayne was the best play maker ever not the best player
Like me saying Martin Brodeaur was best goalie ever, doesn't mean he's the greatest hockey player ever, it's a 200ft game
@@Nada-vk4pk - how was Bossy a better goal scorer when Gretzky scored more goals than him in less games? Gretzky beat Bossy to 200, 300, 400, 500, and 600 goals. All in less games than it took Bossy. Gretzky had four 70+ goal seasons. Bossy had none, Gretzky had two 80+ goal seasons. Bossy had none. Gretzky even had a 90+ goal season, bossy obviously had none. Bossy scored 50 in 50. Gretzky beat that mark 3 times, and obliterated it twice. So please tell me again how Bossy is the better goal scorer?
99 was dominant every hockey pool I was in you couldn’t take him in pools because he scored so much more . He is the GOAT 🐐 scoring is the most important part of the game he was the best no question
Also Wayne is so humble he would say these guys are better .
The game is also way more wide open now and not even close to as tough
Then talk about ovi as a goal scorer. You could say there's a bigger gap between ovi and others in this era than there was between Gretzky and others.
Pretty easy to adjust individual points per era. Look at the goals per game per team during Gretzky's prime, it was around 3.9 goals per game, now look at the goals per game of the player you
e comparing them to and do the math accordingly.
In 2021-2022 McDavid had 44 goals & 123 points in 80 games - that season had an average of 3.14 goals per game per team. So now adjust it to 3.9 goals per game (early 80s). The math is easy - 3.9/3.14 = 1.24 (that's how much you have to multiply mcdavid's totals by). So McDavid would have had 55 goals & 153 points in 80 games at the scoring rate of the early 80s. Not really close to Gretzky's 80+ goals 200+ points now is it?
5:10 BECAUSE THE NHL WAS 75% CANADIAN. In the 80s Canada only had 20-25 million people.
Gretzky is ONE of the GOATS. NHL is waaaaay harder today because the talent pool is larger therefore harder to climb.
Plus there's a salary cap. Mcdavid is great but that's 12.5mil on 1 player. I'd rather have 2 Patrice Bergeron's at 6-7mil each.
Bro Sid The Kid
If Crosby wins 1 more cup and 1 more Conn Smythe, I could make the argument that he's the Gretzky equivalent in the Cap Era and perhaps the most complete player ever. There's literally no holes in his game, he's won every award multiple times and he was the Best player in Hockey from 2005-2018, winning 3 Cups and going to 4 Finals in that timeframe. At 33, he's still firmly in the conversation with McDavid and McKinnon as the games best. At the minimum, he's in the Top 5 with Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux, and Howe.
This is the most ridiculous comment on here.
@@DenOndeMister in a 31 Team NHL with the deepest talent pool in the games history, I'd die on the hill of Sid being Top #5.
And if you disagree, then you're disagreeing with Wayne Gretzky, Bobby Orr and Mario Lemieux who all put him in that special group. No offense, but I'd wager those guys know a little bit more about hockey than either of us.
@@paulmetzler6296 You have a solid case for Crosby in top 5 and think fans and experts are somewhat overwelmed from the handfull of worthy candidates that are knocking on that door. So many wonderful players to chose from. But the top 4 is our Mount Rushmore and can't be touched.
if Bobby Orr played in the eighties we would not even have this discussion, we would look at Gretzky like we now look at Lemieux
If someone dominates the league for a decade, winning 5 or 6 Harts and 8 Art Ross and a few cups along the way, it’s possible for them to enter the GOAT conversation. As Ray said the best measure is dominance over your peers.
Crosby probably would've won 3 more harts in the his prime years if he stayed healthy. He was also robbed in 2013 when st louis got it.
@@tychoncek - we all know there is no way a prime Gretzky would have been beaten in scoring by a Sedin twin as Crosby was a couple times. Even a 37 year old Gretzky was scoring more points than the twins were.
@@tychoncek As great as he is, Sid has not consistently led the league in points enough times to be in conversation.
Gretzky is the greatest player of his ERA Mcdavid would put up 5000 points a season back then
you will never get someone regarded as better, watch clips of the defense and goalies vs gretzky, they basically werent playing hockey, that will never happen again
Thomas Edward Patrick Brady Jr
You got to factor that back when Gretzky played that the goalies were stand up goalies and now they are Hybrid goalies the difference is that back then you would get a five hole Goal way easier
100% correct... But Gretzky is still the most dominant player in western sports history. 8 consecutive MVPs? the only player to ever score over 200 points in a season, 4 TIMES... If others managed to reach that mark then people would have a valid argument (I think Mario was close once though). Well, you still do for what you're saying. But you can't refute The Great One's GOAT status.
@@justinpurcell3717 And edmonton oilers in the 1980s had a stacked team
@@juansotofan9293 Don't act like he didn't put up over 140 points multiple times with Kings....
@@thetruth1024 on Edmonton he had 200 hundred point seasons and when he went to la good point but no 200 point seasons not saying he’s bad I’m a Edmonton oilers fan I just don’t him like he looks he’s the best goal scored and stops people mid sentence mike bossy would have passed him if he didn’t have a bad back and Ovechkin would have pass him if he didn’t miss that much games didn’t play the whole 2004 season and played half of 2012 season missed 14 games of 2019 season and some of this season you know that
@@juansotofan9293 He still had 168 and 163 with a 50G season on LA. Only one person ever beat that. So it’s not just an Edmonton thing. He lost a good chunk of games due to a lockout and injuries while in LA too. Wayne was a playmaker first, goal scorer second. He’d be first to tell you Lemieux and Ovi were/are better goal scorers. Nobody has done both scoring and playmaking at once better than Wayne though.
Was Gretzky bigger? Faster? Stronger? No. His ability to see the ice and all the plays was unreal.
In a time where goalies were not as good as they are now
Brady has proven to be the football GOAT, Lebron and Trout are vying for that spot in their respective sports. I think if a player comes along they can definitely put themselves in the conversation.
Tiger Woods