When the tail wheel touches the ground, bury the stick in your stomach. Pin that tail wheel to the ground (Drag the Tail - hence Taildragger) until the plane is stopped on the apron. Doing so applies aerodynamic download on the tail wheel, and increases its rolling resistance, keeping you straight without having to peddle on the rudder so much. Thanks for sharing mate, I am glad your lovely machine was ok. (nice approach BTW)
Loved the steep approach, I was taught this way by an old pilot "always be within gliding distance of the runway when in the circuit". Sadly I rarely see nice steep approaches like this. I used to own/fly an emeraude G-ARDD. Lovely aircraft and I had a lot of fun in her.
Ive got about 500 hours on tail draggers A number of things ive learned about landing tails 1. The landing is never over until the aircraft is locked in the hangar😊 2.you either land slower in the 3 point landing attitude (heavily depending on the wind speed and direction) or you wheel it on and gently allow the tail.to come down as you slow 3 at any stage you start to lose rudder control you must power up and either go around or if you have enough runway power up to regain control and then again allow the tail to slow come down. 4.also trying to land a biplane(tigermoth as example)in a heavy crosswind is a recipe for disaster But hey what would i know 25 years as a professional pilot and 10000+ hours Oh and no crash here For all tail wheel flyers There are those that have ground looped and those that will That wasnt a crash it was a very mild groundloop with no real consequences other than a slightly bruised ego Weve all been there and if you havent you will to varying degrees
It happens. You have to dance a lot with taildraggers, keep the feet moving - especially light ones, they don't stop flying until they've stopped moving and even then you can't be 100% sure! My father learnt on taildraggers and flew many types that were, including a Kit Fox. Well done you for posting such - brave. I'm so glad that you got away with it and "learnt about flying from that".
Two kinds of taildragger pilots. Those that have and those that will. MY ground loop was in a 46 champ after tail wheel shimmy tossed both steering springs. Heel brakes kept me straight ALMOST long enough. Dropped my guard half a second and the rodeo started.😳 FORTUNATELY there was no damage to anything but my pride.😖
Unstabilized approach, high and hot, touch down needed to be a lot further down the runway with a slower air/groundspeed. Its a tail dragger and you are still 'landing' those until you come to a complete standstill. You were lucky and got away with this one. Good that you put it up on Utube:)
I've been in the weeds a few times due to crosswind challenges. Good learning experience. Looks like you tried to wheel land it. Lots of energy left when you do that. This means More energy to damage things. Wheel landings are fun to do but not necessary. Three point full stall landings guarantee minimum energy at touchdown. Also, the transition from two point two three point can be tricky. Lastly, keep that downwind wing down more and more when you roll out. Should be all the way by the time you stop.
If you look at the right seat rudder pedals you can see he is riding the left rudder. just before he touches down you can see the small reflection of the rudders on the right. You can see he is left foot heavy. At 1:15 you can barely see his left rudder input is slightly higher than right. Then again you can see a shimmer of the medal rudder pedal at 1:20. Place your cursor on that spot, and look at his knees. From there you can see his leg work and see he never quite fully deployed right rudder enough to compensate for his left drift until it was too late. He did input some right foot briefly and straightened the nose on the main wheels, but as soon as the tail dropped and the rudder became less effective, he let the left foot come up again until he looped. What I didn't really see was ANY real x wind correction with his stick work. At least from what we can see. Regardless, no big deal other than maybe hi ego, and the plane probably when on to fly again!!!
he had a really long time to deal with that ground loop and just didnt.... did that in a chief on my first paved runway landing thing headed left as soon as the tail touched shoved in the throttle and hit right rudder brought her back straight then settled the mains and let her come back down straight and rolled the speed off till the tail sank. then kept the stick back. saved my ass! otherwise we would have been in the back door of the local FBO. no 3 point landing that day !
To all asking about stick control on the ground. Untill the aircraft slows sufficiently the ailerons are effective. Once the tail wheel is firmly planted then it is rudder pedals only. None of us watching know what the winds were doing and on a light aircraft such as the Kit Fox..even a light breeze plays a part.
This is why I like doing 3 point landings on tail draggers. Airplane is stalled, not much speed on touchdown, more predictable than lowering the tail after landing. :) Thank you for posting the video.
He did not pull back the stick to maximum after groundcontact, an he holds the stick like a pencil. 20 years ago happend to me on a Supercap. Same mistakes. The landing ends with the stop of the plane. Thats a rule......
Right rudder, RIGHT RUDDER! Ehhh, that wasn't a crash, just a technicality. Kitfoxes are tough as nails and just so fun to fly. I've personally witnessed a Kitfox bipe shed a prop blade seconds after rotation, do an immediate 180 and land downwind with a thud. Very bad recovery practice considering the pilot still had 500' of runway to his disposal but, aircraft was unscathed. Truly a badass little bird. Congrats on your build. If not homebuilt, congrats still on a solid purchase.
My first 200+ hours were on a Super Cub. I remember making many more practice landings than flying hours. Fortunately I flew from an aerodrome were landings were free, so it wasn't unusual when I practiced some 20 landings as part of a 1 hour solo training flight. I'm still part of the tail dragger pilot team that haven't made a ground loop.
No crash, just a ground loop. Wind appears to be from the left, but I never saw him put his aileron into it so he landed with a drift. Can't tell what he was doing with the rudder, but from the sound of the tailwheel hopping I am guessing he was too slow on the rudder input as well. One other technique he never used was adding some throttle to correct his turn to the left. Pressing the right rudder peddle and giving the plane a burst of throttle would have put prop wash over the rudder and given it more authority and better directional control. He landed like a tricycle gear pilot does, he relaxed as soon as the gear was on the ground. You fly a taildragger all the way to the tie down ropes.
Any chance you might be willing to let me use this clip in a video? I am making a video about ground loops and I could use a clip like this. I'd give credit to you in the description
What was he doing with the stick? You can’t leave it neutral. Pull it back into your stomach so the tailwheel is planted, then stay active on the rudder pedals all the way to the moment you’re stopped.
I know these aircraft have had a problem with one of the bolts breaking in the tail wheel steering mechanism, so I wonder is this is one of those events?
Lots of grass around there.. I think I would opt for the grass especially if you have stock narrow gear. But you are ok and your plane was driven away.. all good
Yeah, I've long flown with lightweight flexable running or walking shoes. I prefer mesh top and side New Balance sneakers as they bend easily. The majority of my flying is in Lazairs where you have to be on the pedals way more than a Kitfox. With clunky boots or stiff shoes you could easily loose it as it's harder to dance on the pedals at those critical moments. Glad to hear damage was limited !
I have owned a J3 Cub for almost two years. At first I would fly it only on dead calm days, but with more practice, I have flown it in some fairly high winds, like gusting to 16 knots. I usually do wheel landings, I believe you have more control and can see the runway better. The trouble comes in the transition to tail wheel down, things can get out of hand if you aren't very careful. My Cub has tried to exit the runway before I wanted to a few times but I kept it on. I have made at least one go around where if I had not, I would have taken out a runway light. I don't know about Kit Foxes, that looked pretty hairy and the wind didn't look that bad. Hope you didn't do any damage, keep at it don't let the plane fly you.
Not a bad loop, and I see the wing didn't hit the ground. Good on you. It's easy to do. I built a Kitox IV-1200, and the factory gear, aside from being too narrow and with the extremely tight bungees, had NO damping effect except the tires. Turns out it was also warped from the factory and was severely toed-in. I ground-looped it one time, and after checking the toe-in, decided to buy a Grove gear. It was much wider and had 5-6 inches of "give." After flying the original gear, it seemed like it had auto-land. Consider that, and your life will be good.
My right wing hit the ground, I had a scratch at wingtip but it was easy to fix. I fly only grove gear, yesterday I flew the factory gear first time with another Kitfox - yes, it is narrow than grove :-)
OK - thanks. My mistake. The best advice I ever received was that you land a taildragger exactly like a nosewheel. On both, you fix any tendency to turn sideways immediately. On the nosewheel, it won't ground loop you if you get out of configuration, which is why nosewheel pilots are often not careful about it and it transfers to their tailwheel flying. In any event, nice airplane and video. Enjoy!
The reason for that is the little space between pedal and brakes (Kitfox III) - I had touched the brakes during pedaling. Now I fly with small shoes like sneakers only :-)
Richard Bach of “Jonathon Livingston Seagull” fame. Flew late 1950 Jet aircraft, etc. If my memory is correct, he bought a taildragger after leaving military service... and ground looped his first landing. So...you’re in good aviation company. I’ve flown a couple of larger taildragger airplanes with lockable tail wheels. They worked great. But I can’t honestly say I know about their disadvantages in small airplanes. There must be some or they all would have lockable tail wheels. Any one who knows, please enlighten me.
You could almost see it right away when he landed. He was not coordinated and lacked rudder input to keep the aircraft center. Brakes can assist in eliminating the start of a ground loop but you must be quick and those models with heel brakes make it even more challenging. Ah well, lessons learned and both likely went on to fly again.
I had problems landing my Kitfox model 4 and discovered that the factory gear was warped - toed-in quite a bit. It was really a handful. I switched for a Grove landing gear and it was like having Autoland installed. Looks like you have the spring gear, though.
Did his tail wheel blow out? The tail seems to bump and skip, then starts banging then skidding. His taxi afterwards sounds like he's dragging a flat. Is blowing out the tail tire a common thing on draggers?
You make a good point , and many have come unstuck with tail wheel problems , some power , stick forward to regain authority to effectively get stable in 2 point , time to breath, then power slowly off as stick progresses forward will bring you to min speed tail wheel contact , keep directional authority and bring the pole hard back one tail wheel touches .
I've flown Kit foxes for years, they are are tricky in a cross wind landings. Same as you, a friend of mine here had his Mk IV wings damaged when his local instructor ground looped his Kitfox on landing. As so many others do, the instructor underestimated the Kitfox.
Any landing you can walk away from is a fantastic landing. 2 types of tail dragger pilots - those that have and those that still going to. Same applies to stock cars and race cars but about the wall.
Kit fox is prone to ground loops,, proper stick input was not applied and rudder and brakes must be very closely monitored to hopefully stop a ground loop in any aircraft especially a Kitfox. Glad that there didn’t appear to be any damage to the aircraft.
Taildraggers need massive amounts of small tap dancing on the rudders while waiting for the tail to come down. The idea is to prevent a ground loop from too much rudder in one direction. Once tail is down, full back stick and keep dancing. Even worse in x winds.
@@stephenraustin Some aircraft just won't 3 point. I flew a type in which the main wing reached the stall angle when it reached the 3 point attitude. I found the active rudder movements were the only way to keep it straight on the ground. It always had to be wheeled on. But whether u 3 point or wheel on, rudder activity is the key.
I tax to apron and check for damage, but I was able to start at same day, thanks to big gear and big wheels. Nobody had seen the loop, because the runway is higher than apron, doesn't matter :-). The controller said nothing during payment, I think, he had not seen anything, too.
Putting the little wheel on the ground is always a sporty moment. I find it easier to fly slow than taxi fast, so I always 3-point. Regardless, land exactly straight - accept no drift - and on centerline, and once that tailwheel is on the ground, full aft stick.
I remember being asked by my passenger "Did we crash?" after a foot-high bounce in a Jodel. Comes to show that all my previous landings with that person, must have been quite smooth. I thought "Next time I will show you how a real bounce feels, with teeth fillings falling out.". Some people do ground loops, for fun, as long as the landing gear can take it.
Wheel it on, check your stick forward holding the tail up, keep it razor straight. When your tail starts dropping, balance with brakes and let the tail down, all the while bleeding off energy, this keeps your main wing at a neutral angle of attack. Way more control, no “P factor” trying to put the tail down early keeping weight on your mains for braking.👍👍
I was taught during a wheel landing to keep a tail up as long as possible, then when the tail finally touches the ground, pull the stick all the way back. And take little stabs at the rudder pedals for correction. Don't hold a rudder pedal until you feel it move. This works for me.
The most dangerous point of the roll out is the point at which your speed is too low for rudder authority but your tailwheel isn't on the ground yet. We pick up wrecked planes from all sorts of wheel landing proponents, lol. Wheel landings are for pilots that are afraid to land slow.
Been there done that. You can say what you want about the design but that is the way they were built. Mine was not enough hours on the stick. I ground looped a citabria not fun. If you are proficient in a tail dragger you have my respect. Better bush planes. I miss flying so damn expensive.
Wow what happened ? Too much speed at flare and stick not held fully back ? Gust of wind ? Grabbing brake ? Or just lost it for undetermined reasons ? Any wingtip or gear damage ?
+Shannon Whitaker Yes my axle was deformed and the bolts from brakedisc scratches the brake. I had luck, everthing was easy to repair, the big wheels and grove-gear prevent for more damage. The reason for that is the little space between pedal and brakes (Kitfox III) - I had touched the brakes during pedaling. Now I fly with small shoes like sneakers only :-)
hi Olle, sadly you were always going to have a groundloop,if you have any taildragger it will get you one day and as I have flown kitox 2 and 3 I can speak from long experience, happily it was only minor damage,you post very good video's,cheers mike
Hi Olle, I have Kitfox IV and fly it a lot. I won't discuss ground loops since it might jinx me :). However I like your iPad mount on the overhead. Great idea. I'll look into it. Regards, John
Wouldn’t be the first tail dragger doing a quick 360 after what looked like a pretty nice touchdown Remember: rudder is your best friend in these - whilst a tricycle undercarriage in like a Cessna172 forgives lazy feet, a tail dragger will teach you what your feet are there for 👍🏻😊
Airspeed is nearly bled off when the tail starts to move right. So, comments about landing too fast are wrong. Once tail begins to move laterally, the CG begins to move from where it should be, between and rear of mains, to forward and to one side of mains. Aircraft then pirouettes on the mains because CG is moving out front of the mains and to one side. This forward CG swings the tail opposite of where the CG has moved in the front. So, in this G-loop, the CG is moving forward of the mains in counter clockwise motion, to the left. The CG pulls the tail around with the mains as center of fulcrum, getting up on one leg as CG actually moves up as loop speed increases. Like an ice skater increasing spin by moving arms up. Stick is not back, can't see the rudder movement. Thinking need to keep full back on stick, right rudder, neutral ailerons. Keep working the rudder to keep the CG centered and aft of the mains. Nice video, good teacher.
You have to be very quick on the rudder with tail draggers. Take offs not easy - I let my feet twitch back and forth, then, full power. Just let your body do it. No time to think. Eyes way forward. I always do a 3 point landing, letting the plane plop down after holding her a few feet off the ground. Can also "fly behind the curve".....lots of power, just inches above the ground, nose high, the plane stalled but the power keeping you up. Then cut power and land immediately. CAVU skies!
I could not keep my eyes off the way he is holding the throttle like a potato. I was taught from beginning to keep the forefinger on the throttle shaft at the firewall. Then you can feel even slight movements. That was wierd.
HeHe anyone else happen to notice that every time you get the chance to actually see the pilots face while an actual Ground Loop is occurring to them their always so cool looking about it. Watch the video again and when the Ground Loop starts keep your eyes on the pilot and his reaction to everything taking place. He is all cool like any other day with a normal 3 point landing. Anytime you hear the old Kangaroo hop you know it's a do over nothing wrong keeping your hand on the throttle for another go around. LOL don't hate me people I'm not a pilot. I'm merely learning right now and I would have probably done even worse myself. However in Ground School I have learned kangaroo good are bad throttle back up and go around again. I could hear the wheels hit and I'm only assuming this so honestly I don't even know but I welcome anyone's comments after all I'm learning and I really want honestly would like other people's thoughts on this.
The landing is not complete with any tail dragger until the aircraft is in the hangar and youve gone home C185 are the biggest handfull ive experienced A tricycle undercart pretty much lands its self You can never lose concentration for a second landing a tailwheel especially in a xwind
Need touchdown with that stick all the way back when you begin with tailweel sir, get all the energy out the system and there is nothing left to ground loop with. Wheelie roll on landings can come later! Glad it looked like just a scuffed wing tip.
I didn't see the pilot suck the stick back to plant the tailwheel----that would have given him steering authority. With the tailwheel off the runway (or lightly touching it) the rudder doesn't have prop blast nor enough air blowing over it to maintain centerline direction alone.
Mark M why point out the obvious in a matter-O-fact” tone like a stuck up dickweed? We know what happened and most importantly so does he. Posting just to be a jerk makes you look like an ass...
Yes I see it can happen fast thanks for posting people can learn that are open to it. The ones that thumbs down just ignore as more than likely they are trolls.
That's always been a problem with "Tail Draggers". Back in the 70's I was sitting as a "guest co-pilot" with a guy I knew. He was flying a quick run from Cleveland Hopkins Airport to Detroit to pick up a much needed part for the Ford Plant in Cleveland. The plant was right next to the airport in Cleveland and he asked me if I wanted to come along for the ride. The plane was a old Beach. Kinda like the one used in the movie Casablanca. I had my instrument rating and multi engine and was glad to tag along. He let me fly it once we got air born. The plan was to do a "hot turn" on the ground in Detroit and head right back to Cleveland. When we arrived they were waiting for us. We didn't even get out of our seats. We just pulled up, they loaded the plane, some papers were signed, and we left with the part. When we contacted approach control for Cleveland Hopkins Airport, he let me continue to fly the aircraft and follow the air traffic control orders and he handled the radio. On final he asked me if I wanted to land it. I quickly said NO, but did take it down right to the ground where he took over. I am sure I would've spun that thing if left on my own.
When the tail wheel touches the ground, bury the stick in your stomach. Pin that tail wheel to the ground (Drag the Tail - hence Taildragger) until the plane is stopped on the apron. Doing so applies aerodynamic download on the tail wheel, and increases its rolling resistance, keeping you straight without having to peddle on the rudder so much. Thanks for sharing mate, I am glad your lovely machine was ok. (nice approach BTW)
This
If you do not want criticism, say nothing, do nothing,be nothing. Thanks for the post! We learn more from our failures than we do from our success.
J. Vincent Taylor
- Nailed it.
J. Vincent Taylor Sometimes.
The moral of the story is to always taxi away like you meant to do that.
About a good a ground loop as you can have! Glad you didn't bend anything. Kitfox are great fun!
Loved the steep approach, I was taught this way by an old pilot "always be within gliding distance of the runway when in the circuit". Sadly I rarely see nice steep approaches like this. I used to own/fly an emeraude G-ARDD. Lovely aircraft and I had a lot of fun in her.
So, when you came to a stop, were you looking both ways for traffic? Or, to make sure nobody saw that. lol
Both 😄
With a taildragger, the aerobatics start when you touch the ground.
Ive got about 500 hours on tail draggers
A number of things ive learned about landing tails
1. The landing is never over until the aircraft is locked in the hangar😊
2.you either land slower in the 3 point landing attitude (heavily depending on the wind speed and direction) or you wheel it on and gently allow the tail.to come down as you slow
3 at any stage you start to lose rudder control you must power up and either go around or if you have enough runway power up to regain control and then again allow the tail to slow come down.
4.also trying to land a biplane(tigermoth as example)in a heavy crosswind is a recipe for disaster
But hey what would i know
25 years as a professional pilot and 10000+ hours
Oh and no crash here
For all tail wheel flyers
There are those that have ground looped and those that will
That wasnt a crash it was a very mild groundloop with no real consequences other than a slightly bruised ego
Weve all been there and if you havent you will to varying degrees
You cant make that shit up. LOL 😆.
It happens. You have to dance a lot with taildraggers, keep the feet moving - especially light ones, they don't stop flying until they've stopped moving and even then you can't be 100% sure! My father learnt on taildraggers and flew many types that were, including a Kit Fox. Well done you for posting such - brave. I'm so glad that you got away with it and "learnt about flying from that".
"learnt about flying from that"
I used to read that column (and pretty much everything eles) in the _FLYING_ magazine.
@@coriscotupi 👍👍 so did I, it was my dad's magazine subscription of choice back in the day👍👍😊😊
@@musoseven8218 Cheers!
any ground loop you can taxi away from is a good one.
2 classes of taildraggers pilots, those that have ground looped and those that lie about it.
He was cool about it...like when you spin your car harmlessly on ice...then drive away.
Many years ago, I met Duane Cole at Oshkosh. He would always say 'there are no squirrely airplanes only squirrely Pilots'.
Big time thanks for putting this on here for us, takes courage, helps us all...I admire you
Quick thinking by the pilot to engage locomotive drive during the ground loop recovery.
Thanks for sharing.....Helping us all learn. Brave to share.
Two kinds of taildragger pilots. Those that have and those that will. MY ground loop was in a 46 champ after tail wheel shimmy tossed both steering springs. Heel brakes kept me straight ALMOST long enough. Dropped my guard half a second and the rodeo started.😳
FORTUNATELY there was no damage to anything but my pride.😖
Unstabilized approach, high and hot, touch down needed to be a lot further down the runway with a slower air/groundspeed.
Its a tail dragger and you are still 'landing' those until you come to a complete standstill. You were lucky and got away with this one. Good that you put it up on Utube:)
Thanks for sharing. There are those that have and those that will ground loop.
I've been in the weeds a few times due to crosswind challenges. Good learning experience. Looks like you tried to wheel land it. Lots of energy left when you do that. This means More energy to damage things. Wheel landings are fun to do but not necessary. Three point full stall landings guarantee minimum energy at touchdown. Also, the transition from two point two three point can be tricky. Lastly, keep that downwind wing down more and more when you roll out. Should be all the way by the time you stop.
If you look at the right seat rudder pedals you can see he is riding the left rudder. just before he touches down you can see the small reflection of the rudders on the right. You can see he is left foot heavy. At 1:15 you can barely see his left rudder input is slightly higher than right. Then again you can see a shimmer of the medal rudder pedal at 1:20. Place your cursor on that spot, and look at his knees. From there you can see his leg work and see he never quite fully deployed right rudder enough to compensate for his left drift until it was too late.
He did input some right foot briefly and straightened the nose on the main wheels, but as soon as the tail dropped and the rudder became less effective, he let the left foot come up again until he looped. What I didn't really see was ANY real x wind correction with his stick work. At least from what we can see.
Regardless, no big deal other than maybe hi ego, and the plane probably when on to fly again!!!
You probably meant DEflection
he had a really long time to deal with that ground loop and just didnt.... did that in a chief on my first paved runway landing thing headed left as soon as the tail touched shoved in the throttle and hit right rudder brought her back straight then settled the mains and let her come back down straight and rolled the speed off till the tail sank. then kept the stick back. saved my ass! otherwise we would have been in the back door of the local FBO. no 3 point landing that day !
To all asking about stick control on the ground. Untill the aircraft slows sufficiently the ailerons are effective. Once the tail wheel is firmly planted then it is rudder pedals only. None of us watching know what the winds were doing and on a light aircraft such as the Kit Fox..even a light breeze plays a part.
Loved the steam train noise on the apre loop taxi. 🚁💨💨💨💨💨💨
This is why I like doing 3 point landings on tail draggers. Airplane is stalled, not much speed on touchdown, more predictable than lowering the tail after landing. :) Thank you for posting the video.
He did not pull back the stick to maximum after groundcontact, an he holds the stick like a pencil. 20 years ago happend to me on a Supercap. Same mistakes. The landing ends with the stop of the plane. Thats a rule......
by the sound of it I think he might have had a problem with his tail wheel
very cool of you to post, thank you.
Right rudder, RIGHT RUDDER! Ehhh, that wasn't a crash, just a technicality. Kitfoxes are tough as nails and just so fun to fly. I've personally witnessed a Kitfox bipe shed a prop blade seconds after rotation, do an immediate 180 and land downwind with a thud. Very bad recovery practice considering the pilot still had 500' of runway to his disposal but, aircraft was unscathed. Truly a badass little bird. Congrats on your build. If not homebuilt, congrats still on a solid purchase.
My first 200+ hours were on a Super Cub.
I remember making many more practice landings than flying hours. Fortunately I flew from an aerodrome were landings were free, so it wasn't unusual when I practiced some 20 landings as part of a 1 hour solo training flight.
I'm still part of the tail dragger pilot team that haven't made a ground loop.
No crash, just a ground loop. Wind appears to be from the left, but I never saw him put his aileron into it so he landed with a drift. Can't tell what he was doing with the rudder, but from the sound of the tailwheel hopping I am guessing he was too slow on the rudder input as well. One other technique he never used was adding some throttle to correct his turn to the left. Pressing the right rudder peddle and giving the plane a burst of throttle would have put prop wash over the rudder and given it more authority and better directional control. He landed like a tricycle gear pilot does, he relaxed as soon as the gear was on the ground. You fly a taildragger all the way to the tie down ropes.
@Archie Bunker at what point in the video do you see a windsock?
Any chance you might be willing to let me use this clip in a video? I am making a video about ground loops and I could use a clip like this. I'd give credit to you in the description
Trent Palmer, thanks for interest, but I think, it‘s better to use your own videos for your own channel, sry!
Totally understand, thanks for getting back to me.
A B clearly, everybody could see it here and learn himself!
Just saw your video, Trent! Good explanation.
LMAO, a youtube "content creator" got BTFO. great job OP. will share ur video with others.
What was he doing with the stick? You can’t leave it neutral. Pull it back into your stomach so the tailwheel is planted, then stay active on the rudder pedals all the way to the moment you’re stopped.
I'm not a tail wheel pilot (soon to be though) but yes plant the tail wheel and keep your feet happy! Flight chops has some great video's!
I know these aircraft have had a problem with one of the bolts breaking in the tail wheel steering mechanism, so I wonder is this is one of those events?
Lots of grass around there.. I think I would opt for the grass especially if you have stock narrow gear. But you are ok and your plane was driven away.. all good
Most of my time is in taildraggers. Even though I have never had a ground loop, it can be an easy thing to have happen. You did just fine my friend.
That was a cool maneuver. Don't know how the tower would feel about it, but you could switch direction really quick. I like it.
Yeah, I've long flown with lightweight flexable running or walking shoes. I prefer mesh top and side New Balance sneakers as they bend easily. The majority of my flying is in Lazairs where you have to be on the pedals way more than a Kitfox. With clunky boots or stiff shoes you could easily loose it as it's harder to dance on the pedals at those critical moments. Glad to hear damage was limited !
Good points Shannon. Only fly in sneakers and surprisingly New Balance is shoe of choice like you.
I have owned a J3 Cub for almost two years. At first I would fly it only on dead calm days, but with more practice, I have flown it in some fairly high winds, like gusting to 16 knots. I usually do wheel landings, I believe you have more control and can see the runway better. The trouble comes in the transition to tail wheel down, things can get out of hand if you aren't very careful. My Cub has tried to exit the runway before I wanted to a few times but I kept it on. I have made at least one go around where if I had not, I would have taken out a runway light. I don't know about Kit Foxes, that looked pretty hairy and the wind didn't look that bad. Hope you didn't do any damage, keep at it don't let the plane fly you.
Jim New Well said.
keep you stick in your belly soon as wheel touches ground.....taildragger!! Very nice approach and final btw!
Any landing you can walk away from -is a good Landing 👍
"Clean up on Aisle 05. Somebody get a mop, toilet paper, and a new shopping cart wheel."
Not a bad loop, and I see the wing didn't hit the ground. Good on you.
It's easy to do. I built a Kitox IV-1200, and the factory gear, aside from being too narrow and with the extremely tight bungees, had NO damping effect except the tires. Turns out it was also warped from the factory and was severely toed-in. I ground-looped it one time, and after checking the toe-in, decided to buy a Grove gear. It was much wider and had 5-6 inches of "give." After flying the original gear, it seemed like it had auto-land. Consider that, and your life will be good.
My right wing hit the ground, I had a scratch at wingtip but it was easy to fix. I fly only grove gear, yesterday I flew the factory gear first time with another Kitfox - yes, it is narrow than grove :-)
OK - thanks. My mistake. The best advice I ever received was that you land a taildragger exactly like a nosewheel. On both, you fix any tendency to turn sideways immediately. On the nosewheel, it won't ground loop you if you get out of configuration, which is why nosewheel pilots are often not careful about it and it transfers to their tailwheel flying. In any event, nice airplane and video. Enjoy!
The reason for that is the little space between pedal and brakes (Kitfox III) - I had touched the brakes during pedaling. Now I fly with small shoes like sneakers only :-)
Good going Ollie, I will not fly with boots or stiff leather shoes of any type. Hell I may start flying Barefoot :)
A few weeks ago - I sit in my kitfox and noticed, I'm wearing the wrong pair of shoes - flying with socks works, too ;-)
Whooops ! Sounded like a choo choo train taxing back ..... 😁
thank you for sharing this captain !
Richard Bach of “Jonathon Livingston Seagull” fame. Flew late 1950 Jet aircraft, etc.
If my memory is correct, he bought a taildragger after leaving military service...
and ground looped his first landing.
So...you’re in good aviation company.
I’ve flown a couple of larger taildragger airplanes with lockable tail wheels.
They worked great.
But I can’t honestly say I know about their disadvantages in small airplanes.
There must be some or they all would have lockable tail wheels.
Any one who knows, please enlighten me.
Its amazing how quickly things get out of control.
You could almost see it right away when he landed. He was not coordinated and lacked rudder input to keep the aircraft center. Brakes can assist in eliminating the start of a ground loop but you must be quick and those models with heel brakes make it even more challenging. Ah well, lessons learned and both likely went on to fly again.
I had problems landing my Kitfox model 4 and discovered that the factory gear was warped - toed-in quite a bit. It was really a handful. I switched for a Grove landing gear and it was like having Autoland installed. Looks like you have the spring gear, though.
Thanks! I had the grove-gear too. I touched the brakes, that was my mistake 🤷♂️
@@Olle1975 Yes the left brake
That's no crash, that's practice.
Did his tail wheel blow out? The tail seems to bump and skip, then starts banging then skidding.
His taxi afterwards sounds like he's dragging a flat.
Is blowing out the tail tire a common thing on draggers?
You make a good point , and many have come unstuck with tail wheel problems , some power , stick forward to regain authority to effectively get stable in 2 point , time to breath, then power slowly off as stick progresses forward will bring you to min speed tail wheel contact , keep directional authority and bring the pole hard back one tail wheel touches .
Thanks!
My flight instructor destroyed my plane by ground looping if.
A bitter lesson indeed.
What sort of ratings did your instructor have ???
I've flown Kit foxes for years, they are are tricky in a cross wind landings. Same as you, a friend of mine here had his Mk IV wings damaged when his local instructor ground looped his Kitfox on landing. As so many others do, the instructor underestimated the Kitfox.
Any landing you can walk away from is a fantastic landing. 2 types of tail dragger pilots - those that have and those that still going to. Same applies to stock cars and race cars but about the wall.
I’m still looking for a kitfox pilot who can fly. We’ve got two at my airport and we always run out of the hangar to watch the landings.
Seems to be not to easy to land.
Don’t feel bad. That happened to me in an Aeronca once when the tail came unlocked.
That’s a nice sounding tail wheel noise
Man that thing corners pretty good.
Kit fox is prone to ground loops,, proper stick input was not applied and rudder and brakes must be very closely monitored to hopefully stop a ground loop in any aircraft especially a Kitfox. Glad that there didn’t appear to be any damage to the aircraft.
Pilot : ground loop ? O no I was practicing celebrating my first NASCAR win !
Pedal Pedal pedal! Like your riding a bike! I’ve been sideways too! Haha
Too much energy after landing, allow the aircraft to reach balance?
Taildraggers need massive amounts of small tap dancing on the rudders while waiting for the tail to come down. The idea is to prevent a ground loop from too much rudder in one direction. Once tail is down, full back stick and keep dancing. Even worse in x winds.
@@stephenraustin Some aircraft just won't 3 point. I flew a type in which the main wing reached the stall angle when it reached the 3 point attitude. I found the active rudder movements were the only way to keep it straight on the ground. It always had to be wheeled on. But whether u 3 point or wheel on, rudder activity is the key.
First thing you do after a ground loop, did anyone see it happen
?
I tax to apron and check for damage, but I was able to start at same day, thanks to big gear and big wheels. Nobody had seen the loop, because the runway is higher than apron, doesn't matter :-). The controller said nothing during payment, I think, he had not seen anything, too.
As my Dutch lady trainer used to say in her accent MORE wudda MORE wudda!!
wudda sounds awesome
Once you're three point that stick HAS TO BE full Up Elevator... or you'll ground loop.
1:18 my thought exactly, ( Proud youtube arm chair pilot association member since 2003)
Putting the little wheel on the ground is always a sporty moment. I find it easier to fly slow than taxi fast, so I always 3-point. Regardless, land exactly straight - accept no drift - and on centerline, and once that tailwheel is on the ground, full aft stick.
I remember being asked by my passenger "Did we crash?" after a foot-high bounce in a Jodel. Comes to show that all my previous landings with that person, must have been quite smooth. I thought "Next time I will show you how a real bounce feels, with teeth fillings falling out.".
Some people do ground loops, for fun, as long as the landing gear can take it.
I have pulled myself out of beginning ground loops by adding a shot of power.
Landing a taildragger is a bit like pushing a piece of string.
He lost rudder authority and a shot of power would have helped. What would have helped more is to not have released the stick forward. Big no no.
ravenhhca
if he was skidding the other direction, the torque from a shot of power could've helped him correct.
Wheel it on, check your stick forward holding the tail up, keep it razor straight. When your tail starts dropping, balance with brakes and let the tail down, all the while bleeding off energy, this keeps your main wing at a neutral angle of attack. Way more control, no “P factor” trying to put the tail down early keeping weight on your mains for braking.👍👍
Nope! 3 point it and hold that stick back!
I was taught during a wheel landing to keep a tail up as long as possible, then when the tail finally touches the ground, pull the stick all the way back. And take little stabs at the rudder pedals for correction. Don't hold a rudder pedal until you feel it move. This works for me.
The most dangerous point of the roll out is the point at which your speed is too low for rudder authority but your tailwheel isn't on the ground yet. We pick up wrecked planes from all sorts of wheel landing proponents, lol. Wheel landings are for pilots that are afraid to land slow.
Been there done that. You can say what you want about the design but that is the way they were built. Mine was not enough hours on the stick. I ground looped a citabria not fun. If you are proficient in a tail dragger you have my respect. Better bush planes. I miss flying so damn expensive.
Wow what happened ? Too much speed at flare and stick not held fully back ? Gust of wind ? Grabbing brake ? Or just lost it for undetermined reasons ? Any wingtip or gear damage ?
+Shannon Whitaker Yes my axle was deformed and the bolts from brakedisc scratches the brake. I had luck, everthing was easy to repair, the big wheels and grove-gear prevent for more damage. The reason for that is the little space between pedal and brakes (Kitfox III) - I had touched the brakes during pedaling. Now I fly with small shoes like sneakers only :-)
Looks like a fun plane to fly!
hi Olle, sadly you were always going to have a groundloop,if you have any taildragger it will get you one day and as I have flown kitox 2 and 3 I can speak from long experience, happily it was only minor damage,you post very good video's,cheers mike
Thank you, Mike :-)
As someone already commented it's obvious that the tail wheel was the culprit. Soon as it hits, you hear it, the plane loops.
Hi Olle, I have Kitfox IV and fly it a lot. I won't discuss ground loops since it might jinx me :). However I like your iPad mount on the overhead. Great idea. I'll look into it. Regards, John
Thank you. Yes, I like it but I recommend to use a sun visor at the glass roof, too.
Good Job, landing and parking all at once!
Wouldn’t be the first tail dragger doing a quick 360 after what looked like a pretty nice touchdown
Remember: rudder is your best friend in these - whilst a tricycle undercarriage in like a Cessna172 forgives lazy feet, a tail dragger will teach you what your feet are there for 👍🏻😊
Where is the crash? May be you work for CNN? Anyways, good thing wing did not hit the ground. Was a mild ground loop, happy flying.
🤣🤣🤣🤣
Good one!
Go do that in your own plane and get back to us, thing was fucked up as you can hear
If this was fox news he would have been pronounced dead
@@BK-uy9nj LMAO Fox news would have used this to describe the present administration lol ;)
@@BK-uy9nj FOX news would have used this represent the way the current administration is "HANDLING" THINGS !
1:28 The "I hope no one saw that" look.
Airspeed is nearly bled off when the tail starts to move right. So, comments about landing too fast are wrong. Once tail begins to move laterally, the CG begins to move from where it should be, between and rear of mains, to forward and to one side of mains. Aircraft then pirouettes on the mains because CG is moving out front of the mains and to one side. This forward CG swings the tail opposite of where the CG has moved in the front. So, in this G-loop, the CG is moving forward of the mains in counter clockwise motion, to the left. The CG pulls the tail around with the mains as center of fulcrum, getting up on one leg as CG actually moves up as loop speed increases. Like an ice skater increasing spin by moving arms up. Stick is not back, can't see the rudder movement. Thinking need to keep full back on stick, right rudder, neutral ailerons. Keep working the rudder to keep the CG centered and aft of the mains. Nice video, good teacher.
Bit of clickbait putting the word, crash, in the title.
I thought KitFoxs were supposed to ground loop?
You have to be very quick on the rudder with tail draggers. Take offs not easy - I let my feet twitch back and forth, then, full power. Just let your body do it. No time to think. Eyes way forward. I always do a 3 point landing, letting the plane plop down after holding her a few feet off the ground. Can also "fly behind the curve".....lots of power, just inches above the ground, nose high, the plane stalled but the power keeping you up. Then cut power and land immediately. CAVU skies!
Good job handling a near catastrophe. 👍🏻🇺🇸
Clickbait title
That being said, glad you’re OK
Nice save! Been there, done that!
Did the kit not come with a rudder?
did you not see the pedals in the video?
Lucky dog, no wing strike! You can hear the tail wheel fail (scraping on the runway). What failed in the tail-gear? Thanks for sharing!
thealaskaguy No, it was my right brake, one bolt (after bent axle) scratched the brakedisc ;-)
I'm glad there was no real damage or injury.
That’s how you park ‘em , no problem !
I could not keep my eyes off the way he is holding the throttle like a potato. I was taught from beginning to keep the forefinger on the throttle shaft at the firewall. Then you can feel even slight movements. That was wierd.
Looked good all the way up to the ground loop.
HeHe anyone else happen to notice that every time you get the chance to actually see the pilots face while an actual Ground Loop is occurring to them their always so cool looking about it. Watch the video again and when the Ground Loop starts keep your eyes on the pilot and his reaction to everything taking place. He is all cool like any other day with a normal 3 point landing. Anytime you hear the old Kangaroo hop you know it's a do over nothing wrong keeping your hand on the throttle for another go around. LOL don't hate me people I'm not a pilot. I'm merely learning right now and I would have probably done even worse myself. However in Ground School I have learned kangaroo good are bad throttle back up and go around again. I could hear the wheels hit and I'm only assuming this so honestly I don't even know but I welcome anyone's comments after all I'm learning and I really want honestly would like other people's thoughts on this.
Why is he trying to steer with the stick on the ground? That's what the pedals are for.
The landing is not complete with any tail dragger until the aircraft is in the hangar and youve gone home
C185 are the biggest handfull ive experienced
A tricycle undercart pretty much lands its self
You can never lose concentration for a second landing a tailwheel especially in a xwind
Any damage?
Need touchdown with that stick all the way back when you begin with tailweel sir, get all the energy out the system and there is nothing left to ground loop with. Wheelie roll on landings can come later! Glad it looked like just a scuffed wing tip.
Wouldn't you need to have bled off most of the energy before pulling the stick back to avoid a tailstrike?
@@MaxxVelocity in the kitfox i believe you can get away with just pulling the flaps up and then pulling full aft stick
I didn't see the pilot suck the stick back to plant the tailwheel----that would have given him steering authority. With the tailwheel off the runway (or lightly touching it) the rudder doesn't have prop blast nor enough air blowing over it to maintain centerline direction alone.
Stick was not held back. Tail was flopping all over the place. Very sloppy and no surprise that he groundlooped
Mark M why point out the obvious in a matter-O-fact” tone like a stuck up dickweed? We know what happened and most importantly so does he. Posting just to be a jerk makes you look like an ass...
Thanks for posting. A good lesson
Stick back stick back!
Approach and landing seemed good....until the tailwheel settled. Didn't sound right. You did ok, it can happen to any of us.
Yes I see it can happen fast thanks for posting people can learn that are open to it. The ones that thumbs down just ignore as more than likely they are trolls.
Thx 😄
@@Olle1975 you are welcome. Keep sending videos. Some people do appreciate it. Like me
Taildraggers like grass strips also you you should do a wheelie landing and get it slowed down andcease it into 3 point
That's always been a problem with "Tail Draggers".
Back in the 70's I was sitting as a "guest co-pilot" with a guy I knew. He was flying a quick run from Cleveland Hopkins Airport to Detroit to pick up a much needed part for the Ford Plant in Cleveland. The plant was right next to the airport in Cleveland and he asked me if I wanted to come along for the ride. The plane was a old Beach. Kinda like the one used in the movie Casablanca.
I had my instrument rating and multi engine and was glad to tag along. He let me fly it once we got air born. The plan was to do a "hot turn" on the ground in Detroit and head right back to Cleveland. When we arrived they were waiting for us. We didn't even get out of our seats. We just pulled up, they loaded the plane, some papers were signed, and we left with the part.
When we contacted approach control for Cleveland Hopkins Airport, he let me continue to fly the aircraft and follow the air traffic control orders and he handled the radio. On final he asked me if I wanted to land it. I quickly said NO, but did take it down right to the ground where he took over. I am sure I would've spun that thing if left on my own.