I have battled with this piece off and on for perhaps the best part of 30yrs. I've watched endless tutorials over many years on how to approach these tremolos. I believe I have a good understanding of the mechanics and logic of forearm rotation, which is almost what every tutorial speaks about. And yet, every time I play this piece and get to the tremolo I stumble, my arm becomes awkward and stiff, and functions like a machine that badly needs oiling. I've often thought perhaps my problem was psychological, that I begin to stiffen up anticipating the approaching tremolo section. But, Mate, you are the very first person I have ever heard talk about/suggest/use the term/explain the concept of - the 5th finger being the centre of the rotation for the forearm. Never heard of it before, and I've attended dozens of student workshops, masterclasses on the subject. I watched your video, then spent about an hour in my music room experimenting, slowly doing the exaggerated movement, over and back, which I've done so many times before, but now with the consideration, and the concept of the 5th finger being the centre of the movement. Suddenly everything felt free, and relaxed, I actually began to play very comfortably the section of this masterpiece that had irked me for so many years. I just wanted to say THANK YOU so much. It was an enlightening and exciting light bulb moment for me. I'm going back right now to experiment some more, I believe your video has provided me with the answer and the concept to finally achieve mastery of a very long term technical impediment. I cannot thank you enough, I have subscribed, and wish you all the very best.
Excellent, I'm really glad to hear it! I've certainly been there, trying to follow advice in the precise terms given, and getting worse still, the more literally I try to apply it. Also, it's good to see that you've got films on your page (so people won't assume that I made a fake account to make it seem like this stuff works 😁). BTW I have two other recent films on rotation, including various demonstrations of these kinds of principles. There's a bit in the middle of the first one where I show tremolos that alternate two different pairs of notes in one hand. Those are ones that fail particularly badly under the conventional model, but which I learned to do by changing the entire premise.
@@cziffra1980 Ha, yes, I'm a real person, I've just exploring your extensive video catalogue, just had a listen to your Ravel: Une enfante. You play it beautifully. Such a beautiful piece. I played it in my program graduation recital 30yrs ago. I'm now inspired to revisit and shake the cobwebs off that one. I'm going to enjoy working through your catalogue, both your tutorials and performances. Just spent a couple of hours in the music room, Beethoven inspired, with all 3 mvts. I feel I can finally complete the set with new insight on how to finally work at mastering those tremolos in mvt 1 to play with a comfortable ease. As I said above, your video resonated in a lightbulb moment for me, I could not be more excited and inspired. Thanks once again !
@@toddbebbington7397 excellent! Since making the film I've been finding all manner of places where I'm still falling into the trap of trying to rest into five, rather than simply move the finger well and respond around it. It goes into basically everything, including even very full chords.
Interesting. I think there is a danger though of over analysing here. When I play it I agree that there is clear finger movement, along with forearm and wrist rotation that is not dramatic. The most important thing for me is being relaxed - as soon as tension is introduced the speed and touch quality drops. This latter aspect is the thing I usually have to correct first with students who come to me: getting them to notice and then try to eradicate tension.
Well, I can't overstate how often I tried just relaxing. For me relaxation is the thing you have to figure out how to earn (although I prefer to think comfort, given how engaged the hand needs to be for comfortable poise), when you get something of difficulty. It's not simply a switch that you remember to flick to the on position and which can be expected to stay there. When I would strive to relax my fingers would always collapse and cause worse tension. I had to learn actions that naturally cause a state of freedom via engagement rather than just strive to relax. For me, relaxation is simply the blank slate that you have to start from. Next you have to feel the useful actions to put in.
Personally, I always regard tension more as the result of not feeling the necessary actions to put in than as the source problem itself. If the useful actions aren't present, the instincts only have generic tensions as the emergency save. However, it's a vicious circle because tension also stops freedom of movement, so it becomes a chicken/egg issue. Particularly on my very heavy piano- the worst tensions have always been when I'm trying the hardest to simply relax, rather than trying to feel the correct level of engagement to stand up well out of the keys.
In the bit I show at 6:20, the relaxation of the tapping finger is entirely dependent on sufficient engagement of the one holding the key. If the other finger simply relaxes into the held note, the tapping finger loses all freedom of movement to engage against the key. Everything is about trade-offs between related actions, rather than just hoping to relax everything.
@@davedesigning yes, unfortunately saying to relax is often about as helpful as saying to play better. Except it can be worse, if anything. Trying to relax often makes the fingers fall asleep rather than the poise they need, in order for the next finger to move with ease. It's my hand used to cave and seize up. It's as important to engage the right muscles for the task as it is to keep the freedom in others.
Something I should have mentioned is the idea of having a very small movement where the fingers stay close in the keys. This is important for the final version. However, what would be good advice at the end of the process is simply poisonous to anyone who is currently getting overly squashed down in the keys! Learn to free yourself around the keys first and only then focus on concise movements, *after* you have first learned clear balance around the sides of the hand!
@@wielandhartwich3184 yeah, it's very revealing to think about isn't it? I'm going to do another video showing why this is extremely important for trills with weak fingers. Minimal rotational movement can be used to drive the weaker finger of any pair, but it does allow a lot of rotational assistance to the finger on the thumb side. I think the reason it can seem to help the weaker finger is indirect. It simply opens up space for the "weak" finger to discover what it's like to move without arm pressure piling in. It's completely the opposite of what most explanations might present, about the weakest fingers needing most active arm impulse. For me, distinguishing between the scope to help the fingers (based on the direction of rotation) is making all the difference in coping with a very heavy action. The two directions are in different worlds.
I have battled with this piece off and on for perhaps the best part of 30yrs. I've watched endless tutorials over many years on how to approach these tremolos. I believe I have a good understanding of the mechanics and logic of forearm rotation, which is almost what every tutorial speaks about. And yet, every time I play this piece and get to the tremolo I stumble, my arm becomes awkward and stiff, and functions like a machine that badly needs oiling. I've often thought perhaps my problem was psychological, that I begin to stiffen up anticipating the approaching tremolo section. But, Mate, you are the very first person I have ever heard talk about/suggest/use the term/explain the concept of - the 5th finger being the centre of the rotation for the forearm. Never heard of it before, and I've attended dozens of student workshops, masterclasses on the subject. I watched your video, then spent about an hour in my music room experimenting, slowly doing the exaggerated movement, over and back, which I've done so many times before, but now with the consideration, and the concept of the 5th finger being the centre of the movement. Suddenly everything felt free, and relaxed, I actually began to play very comfortably the section of this masterpiece that had irked me for so many years. I just wanted to say THANK YOU so much. It was an enlightening and exciting light bulb moment for me. I'm going back right now to experiment some more, I believe your video has provided me with the answer and the concept to finally achieve mastery of a very long term technical impediment. I cannot thank you enough, I have subscribed, and wish you all the very best.
Excellent, I'm really glad to hear it! I've certainly been there, trying to follow advice in the precise terms given, and getting worse still, the more literally I try to apply it. Also, it's good to see that you've got films on your page (so people won't assume that I made a fake account to make it seem like this stuff works 😁).
BTW I have two other recent films on rotation, including various demonstrations of these kinds of principles. There's a bit in the middle of the first one where I show tremolos that alternate two different pairs of notes in one hand. Those are ones that fail particularly badly under the conventional model, but which I learned to do by changing the entire premise.
@@cziffra1980 Ha, yes, I'm a real person, I've just exploring your extensive video catalogue, just had a listen to your Ravel: Une enfante. You play it beautifully. Such a beautiful piece. I played it in my program graduation recital 30yrs ago. I'm now inspired to revisit and shake the cobwebs off that one. I'm going to enjoy working through your catalogue, both your tutorials and performances. Just spent a couple of hours in the music room, Beethoven inspired, with all 3 mvts. I feel I can finally complete the set with new insight on how to finally work at mastering those tremolos in mvt 1 to play with a comfortable ease. As I said above, your video resonated in a lightbulb moment for me, I could not be more excited and inspired. Thanks once again !
@@toddbebbington7397 excellent! Since making the film I've been finding all manner of places where I'm still falling into the trap of trying to rest into five, rather than simply move the finger well and respond around it. It goes into basically everything, including even very full chords.
Well this is a timely video! Working on this at present. Thanks for sharing your analysis and suggestions!
Great, let me know how it goes!
Interesting. I think there is a danger though of over analysing here. When I play it I agree that there is clear finger movement, along with forearm and wrist rotation that is not dramatic. The most important thing for me is being relaxed - as soon as tension is introduced the speed and touch quality drops. This latter aspect is the thing I usually have to correct first with students who come to me: getting them to notice and then try to eradicate tension.
Well, I can't overstate how often I tried just relaxing. For me relaxation is the thing you have to figure out how to earn (although I prefer to think comfort, given how engaged the hand needs to be for comfortable poise), when you get something of difficulty. It's not simply a switch that you remember to flick to the on position and which can be expected to stay there.
When I would strive to relax my fingers would always collapse and cause worse tension. I had to learn actions that naturally cause a state of freedom via engagement rather than just strive to relax. For me, relaxation is simply the blank slate that you have to start from. Next you have to feel the useful actions to put in.
Personally, I always regard tension more as the result of not feeling the necessary actions to put in than as the source problem itself. If the useful actions aren't present, the instincts only have generic tensions as the emergency save. However, it's a vicious circle because tension also stops freedom of movement, so it becomes a chicken/egg issue.
Particularly on my very heavy piano- the worst tensions have always been when I'm trying the hardest to simply relax, rather than trying to feel the correct level of engagement to stand up well out of the keys.
In the bit I show at 6:20, the relaxation of the tapping finger is entirely dependent on sufficient engagement of the one holding the key. If the other finger simply relaxes into the held note, the tapping finger loses all freedom of movement to engage against the key.
Everything is about trade-offs between related actions, rather than just hoping to relax everything.
@@cziffra1980 this is exactly it. Telling my daughter to “relax” when she practiced this sonata did nothing to help her. I will show her your video.
@@davedesigning yes, unfortunately saying to relax is often about as helpful as saying to play better.
Except it can be worse, if anything. Trying to relax often makes the fingers fall asleep rather than the poise they need, in order for the next finger to move with ease. It's my hand used to cave and seize up. It's as important to engage the right muscles for the task as it is to keep the freedom in others.
Something I should have mentioned is the idea of having a very small movement where the fingers stay close in the keys.
This is important for the final version. However, what would be good advice at the end of the process is simply poisonous to anyone who is currently getting overly squashed down in the keys! Learn to free yourself around the keys first and only then focus on concise movements, *after* you have first learned clear balance around the sides of the hand!
See here for the bone movement in the forearm.
ua-cam.com/users/shorts4mJDWnczzFU
Thanks. Very good
@@wielandhartwich3184 yeah, it's very revealing to think about isn't it? I'm going to do another video showing why this is extremely important for trills with weak fingers. Minimal rotational movement can be used to drive the weaker finger of any pair, but it does allow a lot of rotational assistance to the finger on the thumb side. I think the reason it can seem to help the weaker finger is indirect. It simply opens up space for the "weak" finger to discover what it's like to move without arm pressure piling in. It's completely the opposite of what most explanations might present, about the weakest fingers needing most active arm impulse.
For me, distinguishing between the scope to help the fingers (based on the direction of rotation) is making all the difference in coping with a very heavy action. The two directions are in different worlds.