You saved me money on buying an expensive primer seater now your steering me away from expensive bushings. Your much better than my accountant! Keep up the great info!
I like how I don't have to use extra force to size with the SAC bushing like I did with the Redding bushing. I noticed the difference right away after changing from a Redding bushing to a SAC one of the same size.
i found the same thing, it just feels like it sizes so much easier. and in todays market, the SAC bushing is the same price as the redding titanium nitride bushing.
What lube are you using? I thought the bushing dies made less effort to resize until I switched to imperial lube and dry neck lube. Now I can't. And my shoulder bump, accuracy etc has gotten better.
I have had Redding (TiN) and SAC bushings. Nothing wrong with the Redding (usually anyway, I did get one very poor concentricity one ~15-20thou consistent but seems to be a one time fluke) but have to date not gotten a poor SAC >anything< yet. Last two Redding bushings I bought were ~$30 so the price difference doesn't hurt my feelings. I view them more as an upper premium product / luxury in the same vein as my 21st Century equipment and have yet to regret any purchases from them. IE, you can anneal with a torch but who wouldn't rather have an AMP? :)
I’m interested to know results of measuring case runout after firing.could give insight into chamber condition and orientation. Cheers from down under😎
Did you measure the neck diameter after resizing with the two bushings? I've struggled with some Wilson and Redding bushings not sizing to what they are marked.
I have found that I need to dwell or hold the case in the sizing dies for a period of time to eliminate spring back. Before doing so, I found several thousands difference in cases. After extensive testing running 1 sec intervals I found that a neck wall thickness of less than 0.010" requires a minimum of 10 sec dwell time and for wall thicknesses up to 0.015" I need at least 14 sec. Of course these are average. I found that I am within a couple of tenths if I dwell for at least 15 sec. Since I have a progressive, I FL and bump shoulder in position one, Neck size in position three and expand the neck in position four. I have seen some significant improvements in my consistency compared to before the dwell process.
Hey Todd? Do you anneal? The hardness of your brass will have a significant effect on what your brass sizes to(how much spring back there is when you withdraw the neck from the bushing). Especially when you're only changing the diameter by a small amount(0.001-0.002"). I've seen cases when trying to size un-annealed brass by small amounts where it bounces back to the exact size it was before passing through the bushing. EDIT: I should add that I've measured some bushings that were sized to assumed some springback in the brass and when used with a properly annealed case sized smaller than advertised.
The neck runout should be tested after it’s loaded because neck thickness inconsistencies could make a .001” runout a .005”, if neck is not turned. But that is also itself another problem because most neck turn devices do not turn truly resulting inconsistent neck turns. Bullet runout matters more in my experience.
Liked Keith’s ‘not enough difference to make a difference’ answer. I am also on a one-man campaign to shame manufacturers and retailers into avoiding price gouging. Seems like so many are taking advantage of economic trends to reap higher profits. Coincidently, just ordered two Redding bushings from Brownells yesterday at $20.99 each! Seems like they have been $15.99 and maybe $12.99 previously? You do the % math. Redding or Brownells’s or both?
sizing and runout are funny things . 1 , some saes will size prefect and some with more runout . 2, i think from what i have seen myself it is the case that makes the difference more than the die or bushings do . 3 some bushings size haeder than other do . but this is just what i have seen over the yrs your results might be different . i have a box of 20 remington cases i got got yrs ago for hunting . 30-06 cases all from the same lot number and box of ammo . don't get me going on lot numbers and how ammo is made at the factory lol . the cases are now on their 7th reload . anelled before sizing trimmed etc . out of 20 rounds 11 have .001 runout . 6 at .002 runout and 2 at .004 runout . and one case marked to make sure it is the same saces has .000 runout . all cases only fired in the same gun . that 1 prefect case sizes to the same runout no matter what die i use full sizer , neck sizer bushing dies it all ways is .000 runout ! i love that one case . even bullet seating gets .000 run out except for some cheap bulk bullets i got yrs ago it had .001 to .003 . the bullitts were not realy round and made the run out .
Also I saw something earlier about these so called neck bushings, they originally come out for folks with dies meant only for necking down cases in a gradual manor, so to me. It seems like just another sells gimmick. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but with what I've seen accuracy wise with a 35 dollar standard full length sizing die, I'd say I've got almost 1,500 dollars invested into junk I didn't need for accuracy.
I was using a one-piece die as a first step to ensure the neck going into the bushing was small enough to minimize runout. After this test, I see that is not necessary. I reran my test off camera with the initial sizing step and got a near zero difference in total runout between methods. I'll happily run the press less times per batch.
My opinion there bs. Was using two different ones and wound up switching back to a rcbs standard full length sizing die, and a 21st century expander mandrel and got way better accuracy
You saved me money on buying an expensive primer seater now your steering me away from expensive bushings. Your much better than my accountant! Keep up the great info!
I have had great performance with the Redding bushings, partly due to the way I use them. Thanks for sharing.
What is this devilish wizardry of using loaded ammo to retrieve a bushing from a die?!?
Yes, I saw that too! I’ve always unscrewd the die, turn it upside down and bang into the palm of my hand. Definitely a wizard of some sort here.
I like how I don't have to use extra force to size with the SAC bushing like I did with the Redding bushing. I noticed the difference right away after changing from a Redding bushing to a SAC one of the same size.
i found the same thing, it just feels like it sizes so much easier. and in todays market, the SAC bushing is the same price as the redding titanium nitride bushing.
Placebo effects
What lube are you using? I thought the bushing dies made less effort to resize until I switched to imperial lube and dry neck lube. Now I can't. And my shoulder bump, accuracy etc has gotten better.
After sizing, do you use a expander mandrel for the necks?
If the difference in run out is meaningless to you, I know it's meaningless to me! Another superb video, thank you!
i have the same results with redding bushings. thanks for the video.
I have had Redding (TiN) and SAC bushings. Nothing wrong with the Redding (usually anyway, I did get one very poor concentricity one ~15-20thou consistent but seems to be a one time fluke) but have to date not gotten a poor SAC >anything< yet. Last two Redding bushings I bought were ~$30 so the price difference doesn't hurt my feelings. I view them more as an upper premium product / luxury in the same vein as my 21st Century equipment and have yet to regret any purchases from them. IE, you can anneal with a torch but who wouldn't rather have an AMP? :)
I’m interested to know results of measuring case runout after firing.could give insight into chamber condition and orientation. Cheers from down under😎
No difference at all !!! Totally agree 100%
Do you use a mandrel? If not can you say why pls thanks
thanks Keith!
Did you measure the neck diameter after resizing with the two bushings? I've struggled with some Wilson and Redding bushings not sizing to what they are marked.
There was about a .0001" difference in sized diameter on the two cases checked. The bushings appear to size to the same diameter.
@@winninginthewind - nice.
I have found that I need to dwell or hold the case in the sizing dies for a period of time to eliminate spring back. Before doing so, I found several thousands difference in cases. After extensive testing running 1 sec intervals I found that a neck wall thickness of less than 0.010" requires a minimum of 10 sec dwell time and for wall thicknesses up to 0.015" I need at least 14 sec. Of course these are average. I found that I am within a couple of tenths if I dwell for at least 15 sec. Since I have a progressive, I FL and bump shoulder in position one, Neck size in position three and expand the neck in position four. I have seen some significant improvements in my consistency compared to before the dwell process.
Hey Todd? Do you anneal? The hardness of your brass will have a significant effect on what your brass sizes to(how much spring back there is when you withdraw the neck from the bushing). Especially when you're only changing the diameter by a small amount(0.001-0.002"). I've seen cases when trying to size un-annealed brass by small amounts where it bounces back to the exact size it was before passing through the bushing. EDIT: I should add that I've measured some bushings that were sized to assumed some springback in the brass and when used with a properly annealed case sized smaller than advertised.
The neck runout should be tested after it’s loaded because neck thickness inconsistencies could make a .001” runout a .005”, if neck is not turned. But that is also itself another problem because most neck turn devices do not turn truly resulting inconsistent neck turns. Bullet runout matters more in my experience.
Fantastic side by side.
Liked Keith’s ‘not enough difference to make a difference’ answer. I am also on a one-man campaign to shame manufacturers and retailers into avoiding price gouging. Seems like so many are taking advantage of economic trends to reap higher profits. Coincidently, just ordered two Redding bushings from Brownells yesterday at $20.99 each! Seems like they have been $15.99 and maybe $12.99 previously? You do the % math. Redding or Brownells’s or both?
I so envy your AMP annealer.
sizing and runout are funny things . 1 , some saes will size prefect and some with more runout . 2, i think from what i have seen myself it is the case that makes the difference more than the die or bushings do . 3 some bushings size haeder than other do . but this is just what i have seen over the yrs your results might be different . i have a box of 20 remington cases i got got yrs ago for hunting . 30-06 cases all from the same lot number and box of ammo . don't get me going on lot numbers and how ammo is made at the factory lol . the cases are now on their 7th reload . anelled before sizing trimmed etc . out of 20 rounds 11 have .001 runout . 6 at .002 runout and 2 at .004 runout . and one case marked to make sure it is the same saces has .000 runout . all cases only fired in the same gun . that 1 prefect case sizes to the same runout no matter what die i use full sizer , neck sizer bushing dies it all ways is .000 runout ! i love that one case . even bullet seating gets .000 run out except for some cheap bulk bullets i got yrs ago it had .001 to .003 . the bullitts were not realy round and made the run out .
Is it just me or do the SAC bushings seem to size more of the neck than a standard bushing preventing a donut from forming?
I found that they size less of the neck.
Also I saw something earlier about these so called neck bushings, they originally come out for folks with dies meant only for necking down cases in a gradual manor, so to me. It seems like just another sells gimmick. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but with what I've seen accuracy wise with a 35 dollar standard full length sizing die, I'd say I've got almost 1,500 dollars invested into junk I didn't need for accuracy.
First sizing step?
I was using a one-piece die as a first step to ensure the neck going into the bushing was small enough to minimize runout. After this test, I see that is not necessary. I reran my test off camera with the initial sizing step and got a near zero difference in total runout between methods. I'll happily run the press less times per batch.
Keith are you planning on trying out Erik Cortina’s new V2 EC Tuner during load development?
Nope. I might need to do a video on tuners. I've had several on barrels and with a single exception, they are of limited benefit in my program.
Do the video. Great idea
Interesting
Music?
Probably something public as to not get copyright flagged. Reminds me of Fly Away by Lenny Kravitz.
Let's Rock Today by leadsquid, licensed from Storyblocks and remixed with Premier Pro.
It'd be nice if the music wasn't so loud.
My opinion there bs. Was using two different ones and wound up switching back to a rcbs standard full length sizing die, and a 21st century expander mandrel and got way better accuracy
I found that a bushing is not as good as full length sizing then running a mandrel.
You didn't shoot the rounds to show the actual difference on target - now we'll continue to debate the effect of runout on targets :P
First
Congratulations, you’ve won a the AMP Annealer 😀. Just kidding man lol 😆.
The chief enemy of good is better.
The chief enemy of good is complacency.
You pumping iron now, Keith? Is your other hobby attending muscle man contests?
LOL, I had to watch the video again to see what you're talking about.