Not a superhero fight, but a great example of an evenly matched brawl between a woman and a man is Brienne vs the Hound. That fight was BRUTAL for both of them.
Of course, Brienne is very strongly "not like other girls"-ified. She shows that she is strong by being as un-feminine as possible. (And this isn't in the books. Book!Brienne struggles with not being sufficiently feminine, being tall and strong and uncomely; however, she doesn't _reject_ femininity. She wears dresses and grows her hair long and stuff. Brienne is part of a pattern in GoT's adaptation where women are made to either be scheming seductresses, masculine warriors, or essentially powerless.)
@@timothymclean I think being masculine or just not feminine and "not like the other girls" are two different things and we shouldn't conflate them. Being gender-non-conforming does not have to include rejecting other women or devaluing gender-conforming women, which is what "not like the other girls" implies. I don't think that a woman that is comfortable with her masculinity automatically falls into "not like the other girls". It is, however, very poignant how it's "okay" for men to beat up gnc women.
Feels like an awful lot of choking going on, and fair number of backhands too. It might be a little disturbing how many of these alternatives to just taking a straight punch end up instead looking like something out of a domestic violence scene.
A woman that is relentlessly beaten and comes out victorious, is The Bride from Kill Bill. Another one I can think of is Alice, on Resident Evil movies. She gets her ass whopped several times, but keeps going.
The Bride is awesome! One of my favourite scenes is when she escapes her grave, goes into a nearby diner absolutely covered in dust and very politely asks for a glass of water. It just cracks me up lol
THANK YOU!!!! This trope/cliché has gotten so ridiculous that I worked out straight away that Taskmaster was female given the number of punches that were landing on Natasha. I was hoping SOOO MUCH that I was wrong as I might finally be seeing an end to this ridiculous trope, but no!
Speaking of the powers that be and their "misguided chivalry," I fail to see how showing men choke women is any better than men punching women in these fights, as far as "wanting to avoid unsettling implications" goes.
It probably has something to do with ratings boards and what they require for a film to meet a classification. It applies to sexual content and swearing, so it's bound to apply to violence too. As to why, that is a question I can't answer, only speculate towards and I suspect it's through outdated views and rules.
@@ooooneeee Makes sense But in canon i could only mske sense with thanos not wanting to hit gamora, but the choking, why. How is choking unconsentual not violence.
Regardless of how it works in the real world, I think the fictional Hollywood version of the chokehold doesn’t cause a lot of harm and works as a way to have the enemy win the fight without killing or causing “too much” obvious harm. I think the fear is that if you show women taking too much damage, it will either make it seem less believable or it will be too much like the real issue of violence against women, and then it’s no longer fun. Granted, everything in the video is spot on and we deserve more action women who can take multiple punches and come back for more.
@@calebmarmon1310 Yeah, is less how thing are and how thing "feel" when you look at it, choking feel a way to control, while hitting in the face feel....brutal.
All I have to say about this discussion is... ARCANE. The entire series seems to be buit to be in direct defiance to these tropes. Almost every fight is a knock-down, drag-out brawl, regardless of the gender of those involved. Vi's character in particular is basically "gender-swapped, steampunk Rocky Balboa," and it's *GLORIOUS.*
@@bakasta5992 It's also a justified case of a woman being a glass cannon. Jinx isn't really a hand-to-hand fighter; she can kinda hold her own, but she's a gadgeteer first and foremost. And she doesn't exactly go down in a single punch, she continues to fight back, however ineffectively. Awesome fight with a BRUTAL conclusion.
Not 100% that they directly defy these tropes but Arcane certainly mastered morally grey characters in ways that address a lot of points raised in the 'Failings of "Complex" Villains' vid so I really do hope Vera watches it.
Love arcane but I do think there's room to interpret arcane as following a lot of these tropes. What I'd be really interested in though in Vera's opinion on the act 3 bridge fight. It might hard to quantify but it's such an interesting and unique fight.
I think it was a good choice to focus on the superhero genre considering that the future of the MCU seems to be a lot more female-focused. Jane Foster's Thor, She-Hulk, Kate Bishop, Ms. Marvel, Sylvie, Shuri (Though, reportedly, only taking the mantle of Black Panther for one movie). They're clearly making an effort to add more women to their roster, and several of the men are phasing out due to expiring contracts, and desire to move on with their careers outside of Marvel. With a roster that's heavier on women, they can't fall back on the same fighting tropes that served them fine when their only prominent female hero was Black Widow.
Totally agree. I’ll be interested to see how Disney tackles this next “phase” considering the difference in fighting styles of said characters. And what they will do with the fourth wall breaking She Hulk (a personal fave.) On a somewhat unrelated note, is there any word on what Disney will do with Fantastic Four? I remember watching the “Fan 4 Stick” movie with a friend who literally said they should just sell the property to Disney lol. And here we are. I mean I like the property so I’m a a bit eager to see even a decent reboot at this point lol
Pretty sure they *can* keep falling back on the same fighting tropes as when it was just Black Widow. This video shows just how prolific and standardised it already is. Hopefully they don't, but under Disney I have my doubts...
I think that’s because of a hit to the crotch a man is likely to get and what I say next I know counts for the BBFC (U.K’s film rating board) for along time and i thank it still counts a female crotch punch or hit would have been an instant 15 or even 18 in a fight scene. So I’ve always thought that’s why so many films stay away from it. Now was incredibly sexist about this thing is the scene of Bond having his genitals whipped in Casino Royale was fine with some minor cuts in 12.
Avengers Infinity War: "we need one female boss for ALL the female superheros to fight" when i first saw that I laughed. Aand daaaaamn, Vera, the amount of movies, editing and work you put into this is amazing!!
The choking this is the trend I noticed, just the amount of times theres not even a reason for it, a villain will just suddenly grab a womans face to be threatening. I cant think of the source, but theres one where a villain slowly reaches his hand out like hes going to do something, grabs her by the throat, and then just stares at her menacingly and lets go. Nothing actually happened. And almost never happens to men. When it does, its generally with the brutal intention of making the suffocate or die after a brutal fight. With women, its like the characters suddenly have the urge to grab a womans neck for the sake of it, and the scene cant continue until they get satisfaction from it, like its just to prove a point 'i can do this, dont make me do this again' but theres just no actual purpose for it. Its just a bad habit villains seem to have when they meet a lady.
In a lot of TV shows I've seen, sapphic characters and those interpreted as sapphic by fans are always more active than the other women. I think it's the unconscious belief that once there's a man involved, he is the active one.
I guess the fact that the Mad Max scene subverts this trend so throughly is part of why I loved that film so much, even if I didn't clock it conciously at the time. But definitely since then I've had an undying appreciation of how brutal that fight is, and how many hits Furiosa actually takes not just then but throughout the movie. Women may be on average not quite as strong as men, but that's a general average, not a rule, and the difference is nowhere near enough that movies should be dancing around letting female combatants actually take damage so much. As someone who's been rough with my sisters and female friends before (just for fun obviously) I feel pretty confident in saying that some women are more than capable of going toe-to-toe with a man of the same size without being superheroes are trained assassins, and while I can't say I've ever directly hit anyone on purpose, every woman I've ever met who has taken a hit (intentional or otherwise) usually takes it almost as/just as well as your average guy would.
This is a great video. You are one of the most underrated UA-camrs out there, you put out so many well researched, hard hitting videos analysing things that haven’t really been talked about widely. I had never considered this before, thanks for the fantastic video!
I think this debate would be more interesting if we used animation as well. Actors naturally are going to be uncomfortable with certain things compared to animation
This makes me think of when I tought in childcares. I refused to say "we don't hit" I would always say "we don't hit out of anger or we use words at school". A boss once asked me why and I say this, there maybe a time if they need to hit someone, defending someone and if someone try's to kidnap or harm them. I used to tell my brother the same about women. It's okay to play fight or do that flirty thing some people do. If a woman was hurting someone he loves I didn't want him to be like, oh God she's hurting my mom but I can't hit a girl. But we don't hit women or anyone just because you are angry. I think female super heroes and action stars would be better of they could be evenly matched with men and take the hit, and stay in the fight. I was so mad when Thanos took out Captain Marvel with one hit, it made sense but I would have liked her more if she was less overpowered or gets hit once! I think we are getting to a point where women can be seen as equal not all men are stronger than every women. Sorry this is so long. Great video!
Looking forward to this one! I'm transfem with few years of TKD training with and sparring against people of varied genders, ages, sizes, experience. Recently Jill Bearup has been making some fun and interesting videos about the practicalities of clothing, armor, weapons, and moves from a woman's perspective.
Interestingly she also just put out a video called 'size does matter' looking into how women's typically smaller size, strength and reach affects their use of weapons in combat.
I think the choking comes from a desire to dominate women and also because it’s not pc/is taboo for a character to be seen full on clocking a woman in the face and the choke is considered an acceptable way to harm
I'm acutely aware of how much work would have gone into this analysis and I want to throw a 'well done' your way. This is incredible and something I have been thinking about since the Civil War intro where Widow has her fights.
I am seriously impressed with the meticulous detail you put into defining and classifying your data - definite bonus points for that before we even start!
I feel like Jolyne from JoJo's Bizzare Adventure - Stone Ocean is another good example of a woman who really is an exception to this trend/trope. (It conveniently has some episodes coming out on Netflix on December 1st, by the way.) I'll be as vague as possible to avoid specific spoilers, but will describe some of what goes in the story to explain some of how she pushes against it. She is constantly suffering pretty serious injuries in the midst of her fights, and interestingly it even feels like quite a bit more punishment than many of her male predecessor protagonists (from previous parts in the series) suffered. But it doesn't stop her, like it rarely stopped them. Also, she usually isn't simply "bad assing" in fights -- at least not for the whole fight. There are moments of payoff where she does, but it takes struggle to get to that point. The fights aren't guaranteed wins or easy in most cases. I think this is largely thanks to the power system, which makes it so that each fight basically has to be approached as it's own challenge. As a result, she's regularly in legitimate danger. Many of the fights are therefore fairly cerebral, but they almost always involve suffering injuries as well before the end of them. She fights a lot of both men and women. There might be a slight tendency towards men being more common as a whole (that is a general trend throughout the series). But she is certainly not afraid to fight and ultimately beat them up regardless of their gender/build, when it comes down to it. I will admit that I don't fully remember all of the fights in great detail, so there might be some notable differences between men and women who she was fighting in terms of the dynamics of the fights, in aggregate. However, due to the power system of JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, powers often don't necessitate the standard two-way melee fights that this video is mostly focusing on, while still leading to a lot of the injuries that you'd expect out of those kinds of fights. From what I recall, she doesn't tend to receive a lot of punches or "blunt" harm (she tends to be the one giving it, if it's to be had); she more often receives wounds along the lines of cuts, gashes, holes, etc. Maybe that can help to partially explain how she's "tough" enough to take the hits she does: being able to sustain a lot of "blunt" harm does tends to be associated with men/masculine strength, I think. Therefore, by relying mostly on having her sustain injuries that anyone, regardless of their gender/sex/body, would theoretically deal with/react to similarly is maybe part of how the story side-steps some of the issues of her having less fortitude as a woman. However, maybe I'm reaching a bit too much by suggesting that some attacks can be weathered more easily by masculine bodies. Either way, it's not like surviving or staying conscious for many of the injuries she (or her predecessors) takes is super realistic in the first place (though her powers do try to explain/justify the former), but there is a bit of suspension of disbelief around that stuff that you have to accept in general when watching JoJo. Her power also does give her the ability to attack with the "blunt" force of a man's strength, so that certainly helps to even the odds for finishing off opponents, even though the use cases for that part of her power are actually quite limited (which I think is good, so it doesn't just devolve into fights where her power is only effective when she's using her power to be a "man" instead of herself). So basically, I think the story does a good job of using its power system to give enemies powers that are balanced for Jolyne's capabilities, while also carefully crafting scenarios that avoid putting her in a position or against enemies that make her feel either completely overpowered or useless. Overall, what I've said may not completely align with the desire expressed in this video since my example didn't necessarily emphasize hand-to-hand or generally melee combat, but I do think it's adjacent to the discussion in that it at least highlights an alternative way that fights can be done to allow for both sides to be more evenly matched, have higher stakes, and therefore be more interesting, regardless of the gender of the characters involved. However, I'm also not sure how well the logic and combat seen in JoJo's can really translate to much outside of itself.
But didn't people complain about that being "uNReALiStIc"? Also do female flag smashers take a hit? What about Sharon carter hand to hand on that show or Sylvie? Do streaming and TV allow more females taking hits?
Yes and the fight choreographers tried to take into consideration the strength difference between the men and the female character by making her punches faster but weaker + making her use her surroundings more and being more creative with her fighting style
@@Thed538dhsk Sort of. It feels like the main problem is that Black Widow (and most female fight choreography) binarises it. It goes from 'women have less strength and reach than men and on average have to be a bit more skilled/careful and clever in how they fight' to 'women can only ever take a single actual punch without going down' and 'women fight in a way that is so much more skilled than men that it will take them down instantly in a single clever move'. Without having seen it, it sounds like Atomic Blonde allows fighting to cover the spectrum that it should, in a way that Marvel movies don't.
I think you were bang on about the cultural sensitivity. To expand on that, I wonder if it's to prevent any concern that the movie makers may be promoting domestic violence. Perhaps this is less of an issue when a single blow ends the fight rather than having the audience see multiple punches make contact and the effects of them as the brawl continues?
I also think it has to do with a strange fear of seeming as if they are promoting domestic violence. But that makes me question why choking a female character is seen as better. Most of those scenes also focus on the female character's face = her misery, which has more bad implications than equals punching each other ever would.
This is great, and I love how you present the trope without dissecting too much into the analysis, simply focusing on the evidence that it exists. I wonder if this is still as true in TV. I feel like Jessica Jones took some pretty real damage, but not sure if this was ever from men or only women (like her superpowered mom in S2). I'll be looking out for this in Hawkeye -- pretty sure Kate evaded taking any real hits in the first two episodes, but I'm not sure and definitely didn't notice while watching. It's funny that of the two non-asterisked exceptions you found in superhero movies, both had directors who previously worked with Charlize Theron. (Deadpool 2 director was coming right off Atomic Blonde!) I guess she really is the champion of change here!
Great video and a great topic!!! This trope is sooo frustrating and I feel like it subconsciously affects how I’m treated in my martial arts classes. The men never hit me the same as they hit each other at first. Once I hit them and they realize I don’t pull my punches, THEN they ask if they can hit me full force, which is still annoying when they never even ask the other men and just go for it with them. Just hit me, dammit! I can take it; it’s what I’m there to do.
One recent example of a female hero getting hit, getting hurt, and staying in the fight, is in episode 1 of Hawkeye, where (spoilers) we see Kate in a punch up with the tracksuit mafia in which she is punched multiple times, is visibly hurt, and yet manages to struggle on and come out on top. Hopefully this is the start of a change in the pattern.
@@livn7952: I'm still not sure I recall her taking more than an occasional glancing blow, if only because her opponents seemed to spend more time trying to shoot her than actually throwing any punches. Mostly what I remember from that scene is her bonking everyone else over the head with a succession of readily available wine bottles. It was admittedly a fairly claustrophobic and darkly lit scene, however, and so I may have missed something in the chaos. Still, even if she does take a solid punch or two I sorta feel like that might be less a case of evenly matched opponents (especially since she is heavily outnumbered) and more a case of demonstrating her inexperience having presumably never been in an actual life or death fight before.
@@EmeralBookwise The sequence I was thinking of takes place between 36:48 and 37:20. Kate gets into a one on one with one of the goons, in which she’s punched twice in the stomach, clearly doubling over, and is thrown heavily and deliberately against a wall. Admittedly at the end of this fight (spoilers again) she escapes rather than downing the guy, but since her objective was only ever to buy time for everyone else to escape (which they had) I count that as a success. Admittedly, this was just one sequence among others which involved a lot of ineffective shooting and comical badassing.
Hong Kong has a variety of badass women fighting as hard as men and bleeding in the process. Michelle Yeoh, Maggie Q... Also movies Kill Bill, Chocolate, Charlie's Angels are good examples.
I would like a second video on the topic, because I think you did not commented two aspects in your essay: 1. How white woman are treated versus non white woman. Considering how much more white woman are represented in movies, I feel that non white woman are more likely to be hit harder in evenly matches. 2. There is a problem with you selection of movies, the majority of them are marketed for the whole family. Blade and Deadpool are the exception. Maybe in movies targeted to more mature audiences even matches and real hits are more common. I did love the content.
This is an interesting subject. I think a good case study would be the Marvel television series "Jessica Jones" bear in mind this was the second marvel character to be adapted for television. The first "Dark Gritty Superhero Reboot" would be Green Arrow from the DC universe. Dark as it may have been, he and his gang, pretty much badass their way through most fights. Then Marvel came out with "Daredevel", and his claim to fame was that he could take a punch and keep going. He did not badass his way through the fights, he took solid blows, was effected, but kept moving. This was new in the superhero genre at that point. Then Marvel doubled down with Jessica Jones. She takes blows as part of her character as well. But in the case of Jessica Jones, the way she can take a hit emphasizes the plot. She may be super strong and able to take blows, but she is broken. She takes the film noir trope and completely genderbends it. She is the plucky Privet Eye with a past and a drinking problem. The genius of Jessica Jones though is, as much violence as she experiences, it was not physical violence that damaged her. It was a toxic, abusive relationship. I think that this is the first time Marvel dealt with the subject of superheros with PTSD. Her ability to take physical damage and just shrug it off emphasized the magnitude of the effects of the abuse. I will say that this show brought to light some hidden biases that I had been unaware of until this series. I, as the audience, became uncomfortable with how much damage she was taking. I realized that watching women being hit, caused me to feel shame for the voyeuristic aspect of violence in TV, and Movies. But I didn't feel this when watching men getting beat. It made me examine my reactions to violence in the aspect of gender equity. We as a society could do better with allowing men to express their pain. I do believe, however, that the reason that women don't generally take a lot of hits during fights on screen has more to do with the audience's distaste of violence against women, than it does about whether or not we feel the women can hold their own.
This topic reminds me of something I read about the 1966 Batman TV show - the executives supposedly had a rule that Batgirl was not allowed to be seen throwing or taking punches (even with the cartoonish "BIFF!" "Bam!" "Zonk!" etc signs censoring most of the actual hits) so her fighting style became centred around kicks, and nearly all her fights were against women. But, yeah, a lot of the time, female characters don't seem to take as many straight hits to the face (at least not ones that visibly do damage) compared to men. Body shots seem to be fairer game, at least on TV.
My mind also went to historic television examples. My understanding is the first couple of seasons of the 70s Wonder Woman had similar rules for her fight scenes; hence a lot more throws rather than punches. Perhaps some of those fighting principles continue to carry forward culturally
Not superhero, but I've always loved Bruce Willis against Maggie Q in Live Free or Die Hard. He doesn't hesitate when she comes for him, and the fight is really visceral and they both beat the crap out of each other before he eventually wins. I was really impressed at the time that he never once does that awful "I can't hit you! You're a girl!" She's an enemy and he knows he has to get through her to stop what's going on.
Women shouldn't have special treatment in fight scenes; they need to be treated equally to the guys. Also, all of them shouldn't be the stereotypical "strong female character" who beats everyone with zero difficulty and never gets hurt; let them struggle to get a win!
Yes. I think it would be more realistic for people with unequal physical power - not talking about physically strong equals - to use weapons or objects to level the playing field.
This is basically the point Vera was making in her video. Though personally I hate this 'strong female character' term. It's fine for a female character to be strong. The issue has nothing to do with that, it has to do with making combat victories feel unearned.
One thing that would've been interesting to factor in would be video games or TV shows. Daredevil is one of my all time favorite shows but, while I can admit she's maybe not the best written, Elektra takes actual punches by male characters pretty frequently. She definitely has her "badass" moments but the show actually gives her 1v1's that feel like the stakes are equal to Matt's.
Games with custom characters, and other games which give the player the same challenges whether they play as a man or a woman, are definitely easy to appreciate in this regard, though there are still problems sometimes. For example, the Dark Souls series grants both male and female avatars the same abilities. Dragonball Xenoverse 1 and 2, on the other hand, introduce some minor differences in abilities on the species who come in gendered categories, thus affecting how you "build" each type of, say, Earthling or Saiyan. And while fighting games put all characters on equal footing in principle, at least, among the fighting styles of female characters, it's not unusual to see more "elegant" fighting styles revolving around kicks and/or the sort of open-hand strikes which would be useless in a real fight. Female characters delivering punches properly... Exist, but are less common. On another note, whether or not the player character will be "badassing" is dependent on both the difficulty of the game and the skill level of the player. Bayonetta will likely get regularly sliced and smashed on a first playthrough, but a skilled player can make Bayo badass her way through the entire game. Tokyo Xanadu is a pretty easy game IMO, but Asuka Hiiragi and Sora Ikushima (melee-oriented female party members) will get hit regularly when you slip up while using them, even if it doesn't really make a tangible difference minus your stock of healing items decreasing.
In conclusion; women can fight men but god forbid they come away looking like they were punched in the face, even when they were obviously punched in the face...
Honestly the only woman in Marvel media I've seen take a beating in fights is Melinda May from Agents of Shield, and even she varies from episode to episode. But her season 1 finale fight with Ward, for example, has him swing a metal bar into her back, punch her multiple times in the face and kick her on the ground, leaving her noticeably bruised up afterwards. It's actually one of the reasons she's my favorite female character in the mcu- usually women are presented as flexible and agile and that's it, while May is very much portrayed as strong and tough. It's sad that she's really the only example I can think of in that department, sort of the exception that proves the rule.
You would enjoy Arcane! The female cast has some amazing fights with both women and men where both sides take substantial hits and it’s spectacularly entertaining.
First off, this video is fascinating and I'm definitely taking notes for my own female action heroes! I find your point about the "one shots" especially interesting. When female characters completely dominate their male opponents for most of the fight scene, only to go down with a single hit, it makes their previous success feel staged and fake. I remember watching an OSP video about fictional detectives, and they made an interesting point about how you can spot a mediocre detective character when it feels like they're only right because the narrative "allows" them to be right. The narrative "allows" them to come to the correct conclusions, but they're only correct because the story says so. I think there's a similar flaw with the way these female action heroes are being written. The narrative "allows" them to dominate their male opponents for as long as it needs them to; but the MINUTE the narrative needs them to lose, they go down with a single hit.
Kind of surprised I didn't hear a mention of Daredevil or Elektra. Maybe you didn't want to watch those movies again, but there could be some aspects to analyze there. I'm thinking mainly Daredevil, because I keep forgetting what happens in Elektra. The big fights I can think of in the movie are Elektra vs. Matt (evenly matched), Elektra vs. Daredevil (he isn't trying to fight back), and Elektra vs. Bullseye (she's outmatched).
Adding to the Superhero examples is Catwoman in the Animated DC movies. She gets into some pretty intense fights in "Hush", and some of them avert the tropes you were talking about. But her 10 minute Solo Short Special is a very noticeable aversion. The gang leader she fights throughout the segment beats the holy hell out of her, and she manages to win. I personally found the fight choreography in those two pieces to be very impressive for her.
Big budget superhero films (most notably the MCU) have their action scenes pre-planned by committee and second unit before a proper director is hired. The exceptions are in lower budget films where the proper director gets more say on the action sequences.
This is really interesting. It reminds me of how shocking the "fight" between Silk Spectre and the Commedian was. As if people are ok with women and men dying in films, but only with men causing sustained physical damage to other men. May help explain some of the anger in the 80's over Samus' gender reveal, but that may have been because teenage boys identified with her and then suddenly discovered they had been working under the wrong assumptions.
I'll never stop laughing about Batman's wisdom save botch at Michelle Pfeiffer's catwoman's indignated "How could you? I'm a WOO-MAHN!!!" :D Great video, this was extremely insightful! Now I feel kinda cool having let the MC of my comic beating the crap outta his female opponent* :D already planning the sequel with two female adversaries and looking forward to write and draw some badass female vs male combat. *he does throw her at one point, but more as a last resort and she gets to stab him in the end
I find your conclusions interesting.....and I do feel that male-dominated cinema does a disservice when portraying how women fight. Given the widespread domestic violence...women folding after one hit is just more wish fulfillment on men's part. I am 5"9" and not willowy. Due my size, I was partnered with men as sparring partners in Tae Kwan Do. My ex (who was in the same class) claimed that the men wouldn't hit me as hard as they hit him. I did notice that they avoided hitting me in the chest/torso. Other than that, I don't think they pulled their punches much. My response to my then-husband's whine about how they didn't hit me as hard? "The point is you're not supposed to let them hit you AT ALL."
The woman was only part of the train fight in Captain Marvel. Right after that scene, the Skrull transforms into a man. During their fight on top of the train, Carol is kicked twice, one knocking her head over heels and the other almost knocking her over the side of the train.
I came here to just say what an amazing video!! Just hearing you categorize all the scenes and classifying them to then make an percentage was really really impressive. I really wish there was equal fighting, I think it´s one of the reasons why many of the female characters tend to underwhelm on their spin off movies, because there is a lack of suspension of disbelief on the fact that they will not feel pain in a human way and therefore you will not feel their pain either. Also, is there a specific reason why you can´t comment on youtube through the app anymore? I had to come to my laptop just to comment. Anyway, amazing job!!!
Looking at these back-to-back, I get the impression the reason the female fighters go down quickly is in order to minimize the number of punches laid on them.
Good point. I think that was an unspoken assumption in the video. Vera talked about not wanting to show women getting hit a lot, and she talked about women going down at the first hit but she didn't really connect those two points.
btw my main analysis of Logan was: this is The Scarlett Letter...... finale = apparently feral child brought back into the conventional fold by crying over her father as he dies, therefore recognizing the patriarchy and as a result becoming human/relatable
I was waiting for the Charlize Theron/The Old Guard mention because she gets hit. A LOT. 😁 But this video was lovely. A lot of work went into it and it shows! Very well done.
Thank you for this! I've always noticed this trope but didn't have it presented like this-- crazy how much this happens! It always drives me nuts when two groups fight and the women are immediately paired off lol Like c'mon.
okay, now that you pointed that out, I'm gonna watch out for this in the TV shows that I watch. the only one I can think of where fights are even between woman & man characters is Buffy the Vampire Slayer...
I think there is also merit to the point that in almost all of these movies the female character is not the main or primary character. The character that needs to be challenged and hit their darkest moment and then comeback with triumph. Many movies doe this with the fight scene. For the woman that had their own movies, Black Widow got the fight with Taskmaster and Wonder Woman got the fight with the military leader. Captain Marvel didn't but I think that might have been an issue of the story structure in general.
That's a really interesting point. There's so very few superhero movies where the woman is *the* main character that it's hard to analyse. The fact that one of Vera's few examples of an equal male-female fight was in Wonder Woman suggests you may well be onto something there. And yeah, I tend to consider Captain Marvel an outlier. The main purpose of her film seemed to be as setting her up as a powerhouse for her role in Endgame.
That is one of the thing about the Hong Kong martial arts films, female fighters are usually very physical and are usually have an equal chance to deal and take hits!
There are two reasons for the thing your observing Vera. One is sexism, but the other is the product of sexism. If a Male actor being in shot for a fight scene so we can see their face - gets injured, gets scratched or bruised or whatever. It won't effect their chances of being hired for another role during their recovery. Where for women it will. So actresses in shot aren't supposed to "take" hits. The reason for so many backhands is cause it hides the face, allowing them to swap out for a stunt double. This applied broadly to all fights, the woman can't be seen taking damage at any time where we can see their face cause producers insist on putting in a stunt double (some of the actresses too)
One that didn't get mentioned that would have been interesting is Daredevil, when Elektra fights Bullseye, if memory serves that's actually the only female superhero fight we're the heroine took some brutal damage.
I will say, in Hawkeye, when Kate Bishop goes into her fight, she takes quite a few hits and is at a severe disadvantage but it's still holding her own pretty well. There is also the fight between Flag Smasher and USAgent, were they really do treat that super soldier serum on even footing and she more or less whoops his ass, I'm not sure if that one counts as a badass or a clean fight. Outside of superheroes, there is one fight in leverage between Elliott spencer, The hitter of the leverage crew, and this other hair who is a Turkish special agent. Those two really go at it for a bit. Episode 4 of iZombie I believe, the one where Olivia eats a brain and turns out the guy she ate those kung fu, and she actually has a bite. Actually a lot of the DC CW shows have some pretty good fight scenes, I can't really recall a specific one, but their are surprisingly many of them.
Loved that analysis! It’s one of those things that I would watch certain scenes and although the woman was “bad assing” sometimes It was cool and sometimes something felt off and I think this was it. I remember loving furiosa’s fight scenes.
Would definitely recommend "DC Showcase: Catwoman." Even though it's a cartoon, I remember feeling the hits Catwoman received and how she had to struggle through the boss fight.
@@CouncilofGeeks Well Selina is the type of character that knows how to make a memorable entrance. All joking aside, Catwoman is definitely still heavily influenced by the male gaze. However, I appreciate when writers/filmmakers try to balance this with the more complex aspects of the character (anti-hero or someone whose running out of luck or out of her depth but determined to overcome and survive). I think that they tried to do this in that short (especially towards the end). At least that's how I remember it, but it's been a while.
I'm watching as I type this so sorry if I mention something you cover later. First off all, I recomend you see Jill Bearup's youtube channel. She goes over fight scenes in films and TV, including fights involing women. As many Hollywood stars and directors seem to have issues with superhero movies, I suspect that a lof self-appointed Hollywood watchdogs will see an abundance of women getting hit as misogynist. (At least in superhero movies.)
Atomic Blonde with Charlize Theron has a real kick-ass fight scene between her and some dude. And also, there's obviously Kick-Ass with Hit Girl. Good stuff.
@@Thed538dhsk Can't speak for Atomic Blonde as I've never seen it but they complained about Hit-Girl in Kick-Ass. Although, as is often the case, it was more about the swearing than the violence, if I remember correctly.
@@irrevenant8724 True but was it the usual suspects or more of the mainstream audience that keeps the these productions afloat financially? I haven't seen atomic blonde more remember what exactly the discourse was around it.
This makes me wonder if there is some difference between these and R Rated action movies. The more recent The Protege had a good throw down between Maggie Q and Michael Keaton. Maybe part of it is the Big Budget PG-13 movies are more mainstream and are less likely to take "Risks" as they do with certain other areas. By contrast an R Rated action maybe has less of that expectation so they can be a bit more brutal? What rough fights I can think of do tend to happen in more R or M rated content(at least in the West).
Another example in a different genre, this time horror. The British horror flick 'Double Date' has a female kickboxer match off with a guy (not a kickboxer) at the end. They beat the proverable manure out of each other and keep going. It's over the top, it's not a particulary good film but certainly no punches were held back and not a 'one shot' in sight. Ultimately, of course, with two combatants with an equally matched skill set but where one is male, the other female, the male would usually expect to win due to the physical advantage. (but it wouldn't necessarily manifest as a 'one shot')
First thing in an apocalypse I am cutting my hair. Woman fighting in movies has been so inaccurate for so long. Using a weapon is an equaliser. But in hand to had regardless of generate, if you are smaller you Have to fight different against a larger opponent. And the amount of choking is incredibly gross.
I will say re: Wonder Woman that military close quarters combat around WWI was nearly non-existent beyond some boxing, bayonet drills, and probably how to use an entrenching tool as a weapon. Even today, if you find yourself in close proximity to an enemy combatant in IRL war, you're in a lot of trouble.
It’s funny. I’ve seen this in my suggestions and planned to watch it. Then after watching a Buffy vs. Sunday fight and they mentioned fighting like a girl and this was recommended next. I’m wondering how Buffy and TV shows compare to the movies. I think that’s probably worth looking into. While Buffy is capable of badassing she’s also known to get beaten up sometimes. Maybe if it gets more common on TV it will become more acceptable in movies? For example there we gay characters on MCU TV shows (pre-Disney+, I’m not quite caught up there) long before the first gay MCU movie character. There was a trans character on Jessica Jones, I don’t recall MCU Movies going there yet. So perhaps a survey of TV shows might tell if the culture is progressing?
I find that in general TV is ahead of movies largely because there’s less money invested per product so they’re more willing to take chances on new talents and increased representation.
@@CouncilofGeeks I figure that’s true. But I also think that it influences the population which makes it possible to hit the big screen later. I recall a story about an early women’s marathon. I think it was early 20th century. The women got sick and passed out. I think they were probably going to ban women’s marathons as a result. But, really they were just ill prepared and not fragile. Today I don’t think anyone (important) gives a second thought about women participating in marathons. I’d like to see a movie like Harrison Ford in Bladerunner. He took almost every beating they gave. In the end he was spared by the antagonists compassion in his final moments. Might make for interesting discussion. I can’t recall if they’ve made movies like that. Maybe independent films?
I also thought of Sarah Connor as she was trying to escape the mental hospital in T2. This is of course, BEFORE she got a gun in her hand. Cara vs the Mandalorian when they first met. This video was very entertaining to watch.
Maybe this kind of thing doesn't apply to animated movies, but I remember - in Incredibles 2 - Elastagirl taking a fair few hits during her fight with the fake-out Screenslaver. It did stand out to me at the time.
Haven't seen the second Incredibles, but Elastigirl (did she ever get a name update now that she's, y'know a *woman?)* seems like an exception due to her powers, a bit like Laura in Wolverine.
I know you didn't focus only on the MCU but I honestly feel like this ties into the corporate "girlboss"-ery that's become so staple across Disney and other major companies/franchises. Like, we have this abundance of conventionally thin attractive women, who you'll probably never see looking less than put together, doing things that should be incredibly basic and normal but are treated with this absolute reverence. Like "can you *believe* a *woman* did that ??!!! A *girl* can be strong and sassy and badass too that's so CrAzY!!!" It's like these CEOs heard about 2nd wave feminism three years ago and realized they could use it as a marketing tactic. I could be drawing a connection where there isn't one because again that's mostly a recent Disney phenomenon, and this weird trend happens across superhero/action movies from many companies, but it just.... idk it all kind of makes me feel icky honestly. It's very patronizing
Great video. Also, you are looking incredibly cool today... not that you don't always look cool, but today you're exuding coolness. Jus' sayin'. I think it's a little bit ridiculous to treat any differently masculine and feminine super heroes (and villains). Even if you believe that human men are on average physically stronger than women, that difference is negligible by comparison with super powers. There's no reason to believe that perceived difference would be applicable in these situations. Plus the fight scenes are always more satisfying when they get a bit brutal... PS next live stream that's not at 4am Australian time, I'll jump in and send a super chat or whatnot in support. Recent subscriber and have been working my way through your vids. Impressed so far.
First off: The Mandalorian S1, first encounter between Din Djarin and Cara Dune. I would not like to fight her. Second. I would like to partially challenge the notion of the Machiavellian overlord saying "we cannot have women fighting". Let's be clear, there is (probably) no such person or group of people. However, as service providers the big brand movie makers are forced to keep an ear to the ground. They absolutely have to try and make out how the public will react to things in their movies, be it by looking at what is going on in the world, focus groups, expert consultants, twitteristas or whatever. Point is, these huge companies hire people to keep an eye on the public and judge if something will work or not. And let me be frank, the public does not accept male on female violence in movies like female on male violence. Female on male is ok, but not the other way around. It wasn't that long ago that the X-men franchise had an image of Mystique getting choked as part of their advertisement and they got slammed for promoting violence against women. Is there even an example of the opposite? One is considered normal, accepted by the public, the other is very much not. So long story short, there is no Machiavellian overlord dictating what can be shown on screen, unless you count the public.
The fight between Shang-chi and his sister was really bad for this, particularly as he was specifically not fighting back. Like it just turned into him getting beaten up while more or less defenceless. And it felt really out of character for Katy to be betting against him as well, kinda undermining their friendship a bit. It's the only bit in that movie that I really disliked.
Its why I liked a South Korean show called my name ...it's on Netflix. The main character fights lots of guys, lots of hand to hand combat cause guns are rarely used..more of small knives, it's awesome and brutal. She gets really injured heh, like bloody stuff.
One thing you can't count one with a lot of martial arts movies is that the women get beat all to hell in their fights. The end scene of Lady Dragon where Cynthia Rothrock and Richard Norton go at it is *brutal* I'm somehow not surprised at your findings. I suspect the main problem with women not taking damage in superhero movies is partly cultural, and partly a worry that the production company will get called out for promoting abuse, or something similar.
Atomic Blonde has a 10minutes long scene with a fight in the stairs and walls between the female lead and several men. It as real as a fight can be she takes as many hits as a real woman could take in a real fight.
I tend to find most of the fight scenes in superhero movies super dull and without any real impact. Especially the CGI messes they frequently have as climaxes. But I've always found the women vs men fights especially dull. I usually ascribe it to plot armour, or the need to have female heros with no flaws, including no flaws in their fighting. But calling it badassing is fitting as well. And to be fair, plot armour is almost too kind. There's lots of cartoonishness to superhero movies, and that's fine. But the women fight scenes always feel especially cartoonish because suddenly it's like the men are droppped down to 50% speed so the women can get in their shots and knock them down before there's any real tension or threat to the fight. It's great to portray strong female heros getting into mix ups with male and female villains. But having them walk through the movie using a godmode cheat is incredibly dull to watch. Especially if there's not a lot of character stakes, which in plenty of superhero movies, there isn't much.
This was a great video. Thank you for doing a proper analysis without trying to pin some definite "agenda" on this like some UA-camrs do. I like that you seem to be having a genuine DISCUSSION and not a one-person political flame war.
Something I've noticed as a pro wrestling fan is that, on popular American TV wrestling at least, despite the knowledge that wrestling is not real fighting and that small men can take on much larger men (or even ones with supernatural powers), intergender wrestling is usually a big no-no. Occasionally there will be mixed tag matches in which the tag teams consist of a man and a woman in each team, but the rules are that when one opponent tags out the other team must tag out too, so only people of the same gender are wrestling each other (which makes the whole thing pretty frustrating to watch). Sometimes, typically near the end of the match, there can be rule breaking but it is almost always the woman getting a hit/move on a man. Even when a man is about to hit a woman there's some interference that prevents him from doing so. It's so obvious and frustrating what they're doing. There is a lot more (very good!) intergender wrestling on the indies in America and Japan (and occasionally Impact which does have a TV deal though it's a lot smaller in production & audience than WWE & AEW). And the 2 largest male & female Japanese promotions (NJPW & Stardom) recently had an event together with multiple mixed tag matches where opponents were frequently breaking the rules with men & women both taking & getting hits on each other. I think having separate divisions for men & women in promotions is perfectly fine, but never allowing intergender matches or never allowing a man to hit a woman when a woman can hit a man just seems really outdated and limiting. I know it's not the intention but it's still sexism.
Hawkeye had this. All of Kate’s fights were very evenly matched. She got plenty of hits in a lot of them. But that came at the same time as this video.
Not a superhero fight, but a great example of an evenly matched brawl between a woman and a man is Brienne vs the Hound. That fight was BRUTAL for both of them.
Yeah, for all the shit we give to D&D(and there is plenty of it) it was one of the best fight of male against female feeling brutal.
Of course, Brienne is very strongly "not like other girls"-ified. She shows that she is strong by being as un-feminine as possible.
(And this isn't in the books. Book!Brienne struggles with not being sufficiently feminine, being tall and strong and uncomely; however, she doesn't _reject_ femininity. She wears dresses and grows her hair long and stuff. Brienne is part of a pattern in GoT's adaptation where women are made to either be scheming seductresses, masculine warriors, or essentially powerless.)
@@timothymclean I think being masculine or just not feminine and "not like the other girls" are two different things and we shouldn't conflate them.
Being gender-non-conforming does not have to include rejecting other women or devaluing gender-conforming women, which is what "not like the other girls" implies.
I don't think that a woman that is comfortable with her masculinity automatically falls into "not like the other girls".
It is, however, very poignant how it's "okay" for men to beat up gnc women.
Feels like an awful lot of choking going on, and fair number of backhands too. It might be a little disturbing how many of these alternatives to just taking a straight punch end up instead looking like something out of a domestic violence scene.
A woman that is relentlessly beaten and comes out victorious, is The Bride from Kill Bill.
Another one I can think of is Alice, on Resident Evil movies. She gets her ass whopped several times, but keeps going.
The Bride is awesome! One of my favourite scenes is when she escapes her grave, goes into a nearby diner absolutely covered in dust and very politely asks for a glass of water. It just cracks me up lol
The Long Kiss Goodnight.
THANK YOU!!!!
This trope/cliché has gotten so ridiculous that I worked out straight away that Taskmaster was female given the number of punches that were landing on Natasha.
I was hoping SOOO MUCH that I was wrong as I might finally be seeing an end to this ridiculous trope, but no!
Ironically the body double for the Taskmaster was actually a man. But I guess it was too much to ask for that to be the actor as well. Le sigh
@@someonerandom8552 Well in this case the actor being male would've completely undermined the point of the story. I get your point though...
Speaking of the powers that be and their "misguided chivalry," I fail to see how showing men choke women is any better than men punching women in these fights, as far as "wanting to avoid unsettling implications" goes.
I guess some producers are into it?
It probably has something to do with ratings boards and what they require for a film to meet a classification. It applies to sexual content and swearing, so it's bound to apply to violence too. As to why, that is a question I can't answer, only speculate towards and I suspect it's through outdated views and rules.
@@ooooneeee Makes sense
But in canon i could only mske sense with thanos not wanting to hit gamora, but the choking, why. How is choking unconsentual not violence.
Regardless of how it works in the real world, I think the fictional Hollywood version of the chokehold doesn’t cause a lot of harm and works as a way to have the enemy win the fight without killing or causing “too much” obvious harm. I think the fear is that if you show women taking too much damage, it will either make it seem less believable or it will be too much like the real issue of violence against women, and then it’s no longer fun.
Granted, everything in the video is spot on and we deserve more action women who can take multiple punches and come back for more.
@@calebmarmon1310 Yeah, is less how thing are and how thing "feel" when you look at it, choking feel a way to control, while hitting in the face feel....brutal.
All I have to say about this discussion is... ARCANE. The entire series seems to be buit to be in direct defiance to these tropes. Almost every fight is a knock-down, drag-out brawl, regardless of the gender of those involved. Vi's character in particular is basically "gender-swapped, steampunk Rocky Balboa," and it's *GLORIOUS.*
Yes, You can almost here mickey taking to Vi in some scene "she is not a machine, not a machine!"
That bridge fight tho?! Straight fire
@@bakasta5992 It's also a justified case of a woman being a glass cannon. Jinx isn't really a hand-to-hand fighter; she can kinda hold her own, but she's a gadgeteer first and foremost. And she doesn't exactly go down in a single punch, she continues to fight back, however ineffectively. Awesome fight with a BRUTAL conclusion.
Not 100% that they directly defy these tropes but Arcane certainly mastered morally grey characters in ways that address a lot of points raised in the 'Failings of "Complex" Villains' vid so I really do hope Vera watches it.
Love arcane but I do think there's room to interpret arcane as following a lot of these tropes. What I'd be really interested in though in Vera's opinion on the act 3 bridge fight. It might hard to quantify but it's such an interesting and unique fight.
I think it was a good choice to focus on the superhero genre considering that the future of the MCU seems to be a lot more female-focused. Jane Foster's Thor, She-Hulk, Kate Bishop, Ms. Marvel, Sylvie, Shuri (Though, reportedly, only taking the mantle of Black Panther for one movie). They're clearly making an effort to add more women to their roster, and several of the men are phasing out due to expiring contracts, and desire to move on with their careers outside of Marvel.
With a roster that's heavier on women, they can't fall back on the same fighting tropes that served them fine when their only prominent female hero was Black Widow.
Totally agree. I’ll be interested to see how Disney tackles this next “phase” considering the difference in fighting styles of said characters. And what they will do with the fourth wall breaking She Hulk (a personal fave.)
On a somewhat unrelated note, is there any word on what Disney will do with Fantastic Four? I remember watching the “Fan 4 Stick” movie with a friend who literally said they should just sell the property to Disney lol. And here we are. I mean I like the property so I’m a a bit eager to see even a decent reboot at this point lol
Pretty sure they *can* keep falling back on the same fighting tropes as when it was just Black Widow. This video shows just how prolific and standardised it already is. Hopefully they don't, but under Disney I have my doubts...
All I'm saying is I've never seen a man wrap his thighs around an enemy's neck to choke them out.
I think that’s because of a hit to the crotch a man is likely to get and what I say next I know counts for the BBFC (U.K’s film rating board) for along time and i thank it still counts a female crotch punch or hit would have been an instant 15 or even 18 in a fight scene. So I’ve always thought that’s why so many films stay away from it. Now was incredibly sexist about this thing is the scene of Bond having his genitals whipped in Casino Royale was fine with some minor cuts in 12.
@@c17sam90 we are talking about completely different things
Antmam wrapped Hus legs around falcon and in black panther tchalla nearly chokes out m'baku with his legs
@@Thed538dhsk I could swear I’ve seen it in some martial arts films
Mel Gibson in Lethal a Weapon 1.
Avengers Infinity War: "we need one female boss for ALL the female superheros to fight"
when i first saw that I laughed.
Aand daaaaamn, Vera, the amount of movies, editing and work you put into this is amazing!!
The choking this is the trend I noticed, just the amount of times theres not even a reason for it, a villain will just suddenly grab a womans face to be threatening. I cant think of the source, but theres one where a villain slowly reaches his hand out like hes going to do something, grabs her by the throat, and then just stares at her menacingly and lets go. Nothing actually happened. And almost never happens to men. When it does, its generally with the brutal intention of making the suffocate or die after a brutal fight. With women, its like the characters suddenly have the urge to grab a womans neck for the sake of it, and the scene cant continue until they get satisfaction from it, like its just to prove a point 'i can do this, dont make me do this again' but theres just no actual purpose for it. Its just a bad habit villains seem to have when they meet a lady.
In a lot of TV shows I've seen, sapphic characters and those interpreted as sapphic by fans are always more active than the other women. I think it's the unconscious belief that once there's a man involved, he is the active one.
I guess the fact that the Mad Max scene subverts this trend so throughly is part of why I loved that film so much, even if I didn't clock it conciously at the time. But definitely since then I've had an undying appreciation of how brutal that fight is, and how many hits Furiosa actually takes not just then but throughout the movie. Women may be on average not quite as strong as men, but that's a general average, not a rule, and the difference is nowhere near enough that movies should be dancing around letting female combatants actually take damage so much.
As someone who's been rough with my sisters and female friends before (just for fun obviously) I feel pretty confident in saying that some women are more than capable of going toe-to-toe with a man of the same size without being superheroes are trained assassins, and while I can't say I've ever directly hit anyone on purpose, every woman I've ever met who has taken a hit (intentional or otherwise) usually takes it almost as/just as well as your average guy would.
This is a great video. You are one of the most underrated UA-camrs out there, you put out so many well researched, hard hitting videos analysing things that haven’t really been talked about widely. I had never considered this before, thanks for the fantastic video!
I think this debate would be more interesting if we used animation as well.
Actors naturally are going to be uncomfortable with certain things compared to animation
I didn’t have the time or spoons to bring animation into this but I suspect it’s a bit of a different ball game.
This makes me think of when I tought in childcares. I refused to say "we don't hit" I would always say "we don't hit out of anger or we use words at school". A boss once asked me why and I say this, there maybe a time if they need to hit someone, defending someone and if someone try's to kidnap or harm them. I used to tell my brother the same about women. It's okay to play fight or do that flirty thing some people do. If a woman was hurting someone he loves I didn't want him to be like, oh God she's hurting my mom but I can't hit a girl. But we don't hit women or anyone just because you are angry. I think female super heroes and action stars would be better of they could be evenly matched with men and take the hit, and stay in the fight. I was so mad when Thanos took out Captain Marvel with one hit, it made sense but I would have liked her more if she was less overpowered or gets hit once! I think we are getting to a point where women can be seen as equal not all men are stronger than every women. Sorry this is so long. Great video!
Wow, that is a *really* important distinction. Amazing point.
Looking forward to this one! I'm transfem with few years of TKD training with and sparring against people of varied genders, ages, sizes, experience.
Recently Jill Bearup has been making some fun and interesting videos about the practicalities of clothing, armor, weapons, and moves from a woman's perspective.
Ahh a person of culture, I see
The infamous bad breast armor😅
@@marocat4749 basically “just stab me”. Jill is a gem.
Interestingly she also just put out a video called 'size does matter' looking into how women's typically smaller size, strength and reach affects their use of weapons in combat.
I think the choking comes from a desire to dominate women and also because it’s not pc/is taboo for a character to be seen full on clocking a woman in the face and the choke is considered an acceptable way to harm
I'm acutely aware of how much work would have gone into this analysis and I want to throw a 'well done' your way. This is incredible and something I have been thinking about since the Civil War intro where Widow has her fights.
I am seriously impressed with the meticulous detail you put into defining and classifying your data - definite bonus points for that before we even start!
I feel like Jolyne from JoJo's Bizzare Adventure - Stone Ocean is another good example of a woman who really is an exception to this trend/trope. (It conveniently has some episodes coming out on Netflix on December 1st, by the way.) I'll be as vague as possible to avoid specific spoilers, but will describe some of what goes in the story to explain some of how she pushes against it.
She is constantly suffering pretty serious injuries in the midst of her fights, and interestingly it even feels like quite a bit more punishment than many of her male predecessor protagonists (from previous parts in the series) suffered. But it doesn't stop her, like it rarely stopped them. Also, she usually isn't simply "bad assing" in fights -- at least not for the whole fight. There are moments of payoff where she does, but it takes struggle to get to that point. The fights aren't guaranteed wins or easy in most cases. I think this is largely thanks to the power system, which makes it so that each fight basically has to be approached as it's own challenge. As a result, she's regularly in legitimate danger. Many of the fights are therefore fairly cerebral, but they almost always involve suffering injuries as well before the end of them.
She fights a lot of both men and women. There might be a slight tendency towards men being more common as a whole (that is a general trend throughout the series). But she is certainly not afraid to fight and ultimately beat them up regardless of their gender/build, when it comes down to it. I will admit that I don't fully remember all of the fights in great detail, so there might be some notable differences between men and women who she was fighting in terms of the dynamics of the fights, in aggregate. However, due to the power system of JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, powers often don't necessitate the standard two-way melee fights that this video is mostly focusing on, while still leading to a lot of the injuries that you'd expect out of those kinds of fights.
From what I recall, she doesn't tend to receive a lot of punches or "blunt" harm (she tends to be the one giving it, if it's to be had); she more often receives wounds along the lines of cuts, gashes, holes, etc. Maybe that can help to partially explain how she's "tough" enough to take the hits she does: being able to sustain a lot of "blunt" harm does tends to be associated with men/masculine strength, I think. Therefore, by relying mostly on having her sustain injuries that anyone, regardless of their gender/sex/body, would theoretically deal with/react to similarly is maybe part of how the story side-steps some of the issues of her having less fortitude as a woman. However, maybe I'm reaching a bit too much by suggesting that some attacks can be weathered more easily by masculine bodies. Either way, it's not like surviving or staying conscious for many of the injuries she (or her predecessors) takes is super realistic in the first place (though her powers do try to explain/justify the former), but there is a bit of suspension of disbelief around that stuff that you have to accept in general when watching JoJo.
Her power also does give her the ability to attack with the "blunt" force of a man's strength, so that certainly helps to even the odds for finishing off opponents, even though the use cases for that part of her power are actually quite limited (which I think is good, so it doesn't just devolve into fights where her power is only effective when she's using her power to be a "man" instead of herself).
So basically, I think the story does a good job of using its power system to give enemies powers that are balanced for Jolyne's capabilities, while also carefully crafting scenarios that avoid putting her in a position or against enemies that make her feel either completely overpowered or useless.
Overall, what I've said may not completely align with the desire expressed in this video since my example didn't necessarily emphasize hand-to-hand or generally melee combat, but I do think it's adjacent to the discussion in that it at least highlights an alternative way that fights can be done to allow for both sides to be more evenly matched, have higher stakes, and therefore be more interesting, regardless of the gender of the characters involved. However, I'm also not sure how well the logic and combat seen in JoJo's can really translate to much outside of itself.
Marvel should take notes from Atomic Blonde and Charlize Theron's choreography. Those kicks and punches land.
But didn't people complain about that being "uNReALiStIc"? Also do female flag smashers take a hit? What about Sharon carter hand to hand on that show or Sylvie? Do streaming and TV allow more females taking hits?
Yes and the fight choreographers tried to take into consideration the strength difference between the men and the female character by making her punches faster but weaker + making her use her surroundings more and being more creative with her fighting style
@@Haittavero They did all that with black widow choreography already
@@Thed538dhsk Sort of. It feels like the main problem is that Black Widow (and most female fight choreography) binarises it. It goes from 'women have less strength and reach than men and on average have to be a bit more skilled/careful and clever in how they fight' to 'women can only ever take a single actual punch without going down' and 'women fight in a way that is so much more skilled than men that it will take them down instantly in a single clever move'. Without having seen it, it sounds like Atomic Blonde allows fighting to cover the spectrum that it should, in a way that Marvel movies don't.
I think you were bang on about the cultural sensitivity. To expand on that, I wonder if it's to prevent any concern that the movie makers may be promoting domestic violence. Perhaps this is less of an issue when a single blow ends the fight rather than having the audience see multiple punches make contact and the effects of them as the brawl continues?
I also think it has to do with a strange fear of seeming as if they are promoting domestic violence. But that makes me question why choking a female character is seen as better. Most of those scenes also focus on the female character's face = her misery, which has more bad implications than equals punching each other ever would.
Vera, you put a tremendous lot of work into this! Very interesting.
Brilliant video. Never thought about this before, but now that you point it out, I’m noticing it in a lot of movies
This is great, and I love how you present the trope without dissecting too much into the analysis, simply focusing on the evidence that it exists.
I wonder if this is still as true in TV. I feel like Jessica Jones took some pretty real damage, but not sure if this was ever from men or only women (like her superpowered mom in S2). I'll be looking out for this in Hawkeye -- pretty sure Kate evaded taking any real hits in the first two episodes, but I'm not sure and definitely didn't notice while watching.
It's funny that of the two non-asterisked exceptions you found in superhero movies, both had directors who previously worked with Charlize Theron. (Deadpool 2 director was coming right off Atomic Blonde!) I guess she really is the champion of change here!
Been a while since I've watched it, but didn't Jessica take a pretty major beating from ~spoilers~ in the S1 finale?
Great video and a great topic!!! This trope is sooo frustrating and I feel like it subconsciously affects how I’m treated in my martial arts classes. The men never hit me the same as they hit each other at first. Once I hit them and they realize I don’t pull my punches, THEN they ask if they can hit me full force, which is still annoying when they never even ask the other men and just go for it with them. Just hit me, dammit! I can take it; it’s what I’m there to do.
Love the video and an important conversation to have. Small correction @20:20 that's Jessica Chastain not Bryce Dallas Howard.
Ack dammit.
@@CouncilofGeeks # I am NOT Jessica Chastaaaaain #
One recent example of a female hero getting hit, getting hurt, and staying in the fight, is in episode 1 of Hawkeye, where (spoilers) we see Kate in a punch up with the tracksuit mafia in which she is punched multiple times, is visibly hurt, and yet manages to struggle on and come out on top. Hopefully this is the start of a change in the pattern.
I don't recall her coming out on top. I recall her limping away and hiding in a car until Hawkeye shows up to save her.
@@EmeralBookwise That’s the second fight. The first one, in the wine cellar, she does win. But it’s nice that victory is not assured.
Although it’s not fully established that it was the same group. If that assumption was incorrect on my part, my apologies.
@@livn7952: I'm still not sure I recall her taking more than an occasional glancing blow, if only because her opponents seemed to spend more time trying to shoot her than actually throwing any punches.
Mostly what I remember from that scene is her bonking everyone else over the head with a succession of readily available wine bottles.
It was admittedly a fairly claustrophobic and darkly lit scene, however, and so I may have missed something in the chaos. Still, even if she does take a solid punch or two I sorta feel like that might be less a case of evenly matched opponents (especially since she is heavily outnumbered) and more a case of demonstrating her inexperience having presumably never been in an actual life or death fight before.
@@EmeralBookwise The sequence I was thinking of takes place between 36:48 and 37:20. Kate gets into a one on one with one of the goons, in which she’s punched twice in the stomach, clearly doubling over, and is thrown heavily and deliberately against a wall. Admittedly at the end of this fight (spoilers again) she escapes rather than downing the guy, but since her objective was only ever to buy time for everyone else to escape (which they had) I count that as a success. Admittedly, this was just one sequence among others which involved a lot of ineffective shooting and comical badassing.
Hong Kong has a variety of badass women fighting as hard as men and bleeding in the process. Michelle Yeoh, Maggie Q... Also movies Kill Bill, Chocolate, Charlie's Angels are good examples.
I would like a second video on the topic, because I think you did not commented two aspects in your essay:
1. How white woman are treated versus non white woman. Considering how much more white woman are represented in movies, I feel that non white woman are more likely to be hit harder in evenly matches.
2. There is a problem with you selection of movies, the majority of them are marketed for the whole family. Blade and Deadpool are the exception. Maybe in movies targeted to more mature audiences even matches and real hits are more common.
I did love the content.
This is an interesting subject. I think a good case study would be the Marvel television series "Jessica Jones" bear in mind this was the second marvel character to be adapted for television. The first "Dark Gritty Superhero Reboot" would be Green Arrow from the DC universe. Dark as it may have been, he and his gang, pretty much badass their way through most fights. Then Marvel came out with "Daredevel", and his claim to fame was that he could take a punch and keep going. He did not badass his way through the fights, he took solid blows, was effected, but kept moving. This was new in the superhero genre at that point.
Then Marvel doubled down with Jessica Jones. She takes blows as part of her character as well. But in the case of Jessica Jones, the way she can take a hit emphasizes the plot. She may be super strong and able to take blows, but she is broken. She takes the film noir trope and completely genderbends it. She is the plucky Privet Eye with a past and a drinking problem. The genius of Jessica Jones though is, as much violence as she experiences, it was not physical violence that damaged her. It was a toxic, abusive relationship. I think that this is the first time Marvel dealt with the subject of superheros with PTSD. Her ability to take physical damage and just shrug it off emphasized the magnitude of the effects of the abuse.
I will say that this show brought to light some hidden biases that I had been unaware of until this series. I, as the audience, became uncomfortable with how much damage she was taking. I realized that watching women being hit, caused me to feel shame for the voyeuristic aspect of violence in TV, and Movies. But I didn't feel this when watching men getting beat. It made me examine my reactions to violence in the aspect of gender equity. We as a society could do better with allowing men to express their pain. I do believe, however, that the reason that women don't generally take a lot of hits during fights on screen has more to do with the audience's distaste of violence against women, than it does about whether or not we feel the women can hold their own.
This topic reminds me of something I read about the 1966 Batman TV show - the executives supposedly had a rule that Batgirl was not allowed to be seen throwing or taking punches (even with the cartoonish "BIFF!" "Bam!" "Zonk!" etc signs censoring most of the actual hits) so her fighting style became centred around kicks, and nearly all her fights were against women.
But, yeah, a lot of the time, female characters don't seem to take as many straight hits to the face (at least not ones that visibly do damage) compared to men. Body shots seem to be fairer game, at least on TV.
TV doesn’t seem to be as bad, but I DEFINITELY don’t have the time to go through entire seasons of television to check.
@@CouncilofGeeks True. That would take forever... or a bigger team. Or both. Stay safe out there 🖖
My mind also went to historic television examples. My understanding is the first couple of seasons of the 70s Wonder Woman had similar rules for her fight scenes; hence a lot more throws rather than punches. Perhaps some of those fighting principles continue to carry forward culturally
Not superhero, but I've always loved Bruce Willis against Maggie Q in Live Free or Die Hard. He doesn't hesitate when she comes for him, and the fight is really visceral and they both beat the crap out of each other before he eventually wins. I was really impressed at the time that he never once does that awful "I can't hit you! You're a girl!" She's an enemy and he knows he has to get through her to stop what's going on.
Women shouldn't have special treatment in fight scenes; they need to be treated equally to the guys. Also, all of them shouldn't be the stereotypical "strong female character" who beats everyone with zero difficulty and never gets hurt; let them struggle to get a win!
Yes. I think it would be more realistic for people with unequal physical power - not talking about physically strong equals - to use weapons or objects to level the playing field.
This is basically the point Vera was making in her video. Though personally I hate this 'strong female character' term. It's fine for a female character to be strong. The issue has nothing to do with that, it has to do with making combat victories feel unearned.
One thing that would've been interesting to factor in would be video games or TV shows. Daredevil is one of my all time favorite shows but, while I can admit she's maybe not the best written, Elektra takes actual punches by male characters pretty frequently. She definitely has her "badass" moments but the show actually gives her 1v1's that feel like the stakes are equal to Matt's.
Games with custom characters, and other games which give the player the same challenges whether they play as a man or a woman, are definitely easy to appreciate in this regard, though there are still problems sometimes. For example, the Dark Souls series grants both male and female avatars the same abilities. Dragonball Xenoverse 1 and 2, on the other hand, introduce some minor differences in abilities on the species who come in gendered categories, thus affecting how you "build" each type of, say, Earthling or Saiyan.
And while fighting games put all characters on equal footing in principle, at least, among the fighting styles of female characters, it's not unusual to see more "elegant" fighting styles revolving around kicks and/or the sort of open-hand strikes which would be useless in a real fight. Female characters delivering punches properly... Exist, but are less common.
On another note, whether or not the player character will be "badassing" is dependent on both the difficulty of the game and the skill level of the player. Bayonetta will likely get regularly sliced and smashed on a first playthrough, but a skilled player can make Bayo badass her way through the entire game. Tokyo Xanadu is a pretty easy game IMO, but Asuka Hiiragi and Sora Ikushima (melee-oriented female party members) will get hit regularly when you slip up while using them, even if it doesn't really make a tangible difference minus your stock of healing items decreasing.
In conclusion; women can fight men but god forbid they come away looking like they were punched in the face, even when they were obviously punched in the face...
Honestly the only woman in Marvel media I've seen take a beating in fights is Melinda May from Agents of Shield, and even she varies from episode to episode. But her season 1 finale fight with Ward, for example, has him swing a metal bar into her back, punch her multiple times in the face and kick her on the ground, leaving her noticeably bruised up afterwards. It's actually one of the reasons she's my favorite female character in the mcu- usually women are presented as flexible and agile and that's it, while May is very much portrayed as strong and tough. It's sad that she's really the only example I can think of in that department, sort of the exception that proves the rule.
You would enjoy Arcane! The female cast has some amazing fights with both women and men where both sides take substantial hits and it’s spectacularly entertaining.
First off, this video is fascinating and I'm definitely taking notes for my own female action heroes! I find your point about the "one shots" especially interesting. When female characters completely dominate their male opponents for most of the fight scene, only to go down with a single hit, it makes their previous success feel staged and fake.
I remember watching an OSP video about fictional detectives, and they made an interesting point about how you can spot a mediocre detective character when it feels like they're only right because the narrative "allows" them to be right. The narrative "allows" them to come to the correct conclusions, but they're only correct because the story says so. I think there's a similar flaw with the way these female action heroes are being written. The narrative "allows" them to dominate their male opponents for as long as it needs them to; but the MINUTE the narrative needs them to lose, they go down with a single hit.
Kind of surprised I didn't hear a mention of Daredevil or Elektra. Maybe you didn't want to watch those movies again, but there could be some aspects to analyze there. I'm thinking mainly Daredevil, because I keep forgetting what happens in Elektra. The big fights I can think of in the movie are Elektra vs. Matt (evenly matched), Elektra vs. Daredevil (he isn't trying to fight back), and Elektra vs. Bullseye (she's outmatched).
I honestly forgot they existed. I’m not even joking.
@@CouncilofGeeks That's fair.
Adding to the Superhero examples is Catwoman in the Animated DC movies.
She gets into some pretty intense fights in "Hush", and some of them avert the tropes you were talking about.
But her 10 minute Solo Short Special is a very noticeable aversion.
The gang leader she fights throughout the segment beats the holy hell out of her, and she manages to win.
I personally found the fight choreography in those two pieces to be very impressive for her.
Big budget superhero films (most notably the MCU) have their action scenes pre-planned by committee and second unit before a proper director is hired. The exceptions are in lower budget films where the proper director gets more say on the action sequences.
This is really interesting. It reminds me of how shocking the "fight" between Silk Spectre and the Commedian was. As if people are ok with women and men dying in films, but only with men causing sustained physical damage to other men.
May help explain some of the anger in the 80's over Samus' gender reveal, but that may have been because teenage boys identified with her and then suddenly discovered they had been working under the wrong assumptions.
could you maybe visualize the percentages in a table next time? it would make it easier to follow. Really love your analyses!!
I wanted to but honestly I’m really bad at it and I opted out rather than to end up with something I hated.
I'll never stop laughing about Batman's wisdom save botch at Michelle Pfeiffer's catwoman's indignated "How could you? I'm a WOO-MAHN!!!" :D
Great video, this was extremely insightful! Now I feel kinda cool having let the MC of my comic beating the crap outta his female opponent* :D already planning the sequel with two female adversaries and looking forward to write and draw some badass female vs male combat.
*he does throw her at one point, but more as a last resort and she gets to stab him in the end
Women can kick butt as well as men. That's why I like characters such as Xena. Black Widow. Lara Croft. Daenerys Targaryen etc.
I find your conclusions interesting.....and I do feel that male-dominated cinema does a disservice when portraying how women fight.
Given the widespread domestic violence...women folding after one hit is just more wish fulfillment on men's part.
I am 5"9" and not willowy. Due my size, I was partnered with men as sparring partners in Tae Kwan Do.
My ex (who was in the same class) claimed that the men wouldn't hit me as hard as they hit him. I did notice that they avoided hitting me in the chest/torso. Other than that, I don't think they pulled their punches much.
My response to my then-husband's whine about how they didn't hit me as hard? "The point is you're not supposed to let them hit you AT ALL."
The woman was only part of the train fight in Captain Marvel. Right after that scene, the Skrull transforms into a man. During their fight on top of the train, Carol is kicked twice, one knocking her head over heels and the other almost knocking her over the side of the train.
I came here to just say what an amazing video!! Just hearing you categorize all the scenes and classifying them to then make an percentage was really really impressive.
I really wish there was equal fighting, I think it´s one of the reasons why many of the female characters tend to underwhelm on their spin off movies, because there is a lack of suspension of disbelief on the fact that they will not feel pain in a human way and therefore you will not feel their pain either.
Also, is there a specific reason why you can´t comment on youtube through the app anymore? I had to come to my laptop just to comment.
Anyway, amazing job!!!
Looking at these back-to-back, I get the impression the reason the female fighters go down quickly is in order to minimize the number of punches laid on them.
Good point. I think that was an unspoken assumption in the video. Vera talked about not wanting to show women getting hit a lot, and she talked about women going down at the first hit but she didn't really connect those two points.
btw my main analysis of Logan was: this is The Scarlett Letter...... finale = apparently feral child brought back into the conventional fold by crying over her father as he dies, therefore recognizing the patriarchy and as a result becoming human/relatable
Also, the Adrianne Palicki scene in John Wick is an exception. He only stops at killing her because no killing in The Continental.
I was waiting for the Charlize Theron/The Old Guard mention because she gets hit. A LOT. 😁 But this video was lovely. A lot of work went into it and it shows! Very well done.
Thank you for this! I've always noticed this trope but didn't have it presented like this-- crazy how much this happens! It always drives me nuts when two groups fight and the women are immediately paired off lol Like c'mon.
okay, now that you pointed that out, I'm gonna watch out for this in the TV shows that I watch. the only one I can think of where fights are even between woman & man characters is Buffy the Vampire Slayer...
Arcane had a legit mixed gender brawl in its first episode if you want something more recent.
I was yelling "Old Guard!" for a long time watching this ;)
Glad I could pay that off for you.
I think there is also merit to the point that in almost all of these movies the female character is not the main or primary character. The character that needs to be challenged and hit their darkest moment and then comeback with triumph. Many movies doe this with the fight scene. For the woman that had their own movies, Black Widow got the fight with Taskmaster and Wonder Woman got the fight with the military leader. Captain Marvel didn't but I think that might have been an issue of the story structure in general.
That's a really interesting point. There's so very few superhero movies where the woman is *the* main character that it's hard to analyse. The fact that one of Vera's few examples of an equal male-female fight was in Wonder Woman suggests you may well be onto something there.
And yeah, I tend to consider Captain Marvel an outlier. The main purpose of her film seemed to be as setting her up as a powerhouse for her role in Endgame.
Brilliantly observed, as usual.
That is one of the thing about the Hong Kong martial arts films, female fighters are usually very physical and are usually have an equal chance to deal and take hits!
This video makes me want to go watch Buffy fight scenes through this lens. Also, the Mission Impossible franchise.
Once you see the "Women proofing" some action movies put on fights its hard to unsee
There are two reasons for the thing your observing Vera. One is sexism, but the other is the product of sexism. If a Male actor being in shot for a fight scene so we can see their face - gets injured, gets scratched or bruised or whatever. It won't effect their chances of being hired for another role during their recovery. Where for women it will. So actresses in shot aren't supposed to "take" hits. The reason for so many backhands is cause it hides the face, allowing them to swap out for a stunt double. This applied broadly to all fights, the woman can't be seen taking damage at any time where we can see their face cause producers insist on putting in a stunt double (some of the actresses too)
Thank you for another terrific analysis!
One that didn't get mentioned that would have been interesting is Daredevil, when Elektra fights Bullseye, if memory serves that's actually the only female superhero fight we're the heroine took some brutal damage.
I will say, in Hawkeye, when Kate Bishop goes into her fight, she takes quite a few hits and is at a severe disadvantage but it's still holding her own pretty well. There is also the fight between Flag Smasher and USAgent, were they really do treat that super soldier serum on even footing and she more or less whoops his ass, I'm not sure if that one counts as a badass or a clean fight.
Outside of superheroes, there is one fight in leverage between Elliott spencer, The hitter of the leverage crew, and this other hair who is a Turkish special agent. Those two really go at it for a bit. Episode 4 of iZombie I believe, the one where Olivia eats a brain and turns out the guy she ate those kung fu, and she actually has a bite. Actually a lot of the DC CW shows have some pretty good fight scenes, I can't really recall a specific one, but their are surprisingly many of them.
Nice analysis!
Jill Bearup has entered the chat.
Loved that analysis! It’s one of those things that I would watch certain scenes and although the woman was “bad assing” sometimes It was cool and sometimes something felt off and I think this was it. I remember loving furiosa’s fight scenes.
The final fight in the hunt I thought was evenly matched
Would definitely recommend "DC Showcase: Catwoman." Even though it's a cartoon, I remember feeling the hits Catwoman received and how she had to struggle through the boss fight.
Yeah she also had a neckline down to her freaking navel and that’s the only thing I remember at this point.
@@CouncilofGeeks Well Selina is the type of character that knows how to make a memorable entrance.
All joking aside, Catwoman is definitely still heavily influenced by the male gaze. However, I appreciate when writers/filmmakers try to balance this with the more complex aspects of the character (anti-hero or someone whose running out of luck or out of her depth but determined to overcome and survive). I think that they tried to do this in that short (especially towards the end). At least that's how I remember it, but it's been a while.
I'm watching as I type this so sorry if I mention something you cover later. First off all, I recomend you see Jill Bearup's youtube channel. She goes over fight scenes in films and TV, including fights involing women.
As many Hollywood stars and directors seem to have issues with superhero movies, I suspect that a lof self-appointed Hollywood watchdogs will see an abundance of women getting hit as misogynist. (At least in superhero movies.)
Great and interesting analysis. Minor correction, that's Jessica Chastain in Dark Phoenix not BDH
OK, but the onus is on you to prove that chastain and howard aren't the same person. ;)
Atomic Blonde with Charlize Theron has a real kick-ass fight scene between her and some dude. And also, there's obviously Kick-Ass with Hit Girl. Good stuff.
But didn't people complain about atomic blonde?
@@Thed538dhsk Can't speak for Atomic Blonde as I've never seen it but they complained about Hit-Girl in Kick-Ass. Although, as is often the case, it was more about the swearing than the violence, if I remember correctly.
@@Thed538dhsk There is a contingent that will complain about any movie that has a woman being effective in combat against men.
@@irrevenant8724 True but was it the usual suspects or more of the mainstream audience that keeps the these productions afloat financially? I haven't seen atomic blonde more remember what exactly the discourse was around it.
@@Thed538dhsk No idea in this specific case, sorry.
This makes me wonder if there is some difference between these and R Rated action movies. The more recent The Protege had a good throw down between Maggie Q and Michael Keaton. Maybe part of it is the Big Budget PG-13 movies are more mainstream and are less likely to take "Risks" as they do with certain other areas. By contrast an R Rated action maybe has less of that expectation so they can be a bit more brutal? What rough fights I can think of do tend to happen in more R or M rated content(at least in the West).
Another example in a different genre, this time horror. The British horror flick 'Double Date' has a female kickboxer match off with a guy (not a kickboxer) at the end. They beat the proverable manure out of each other and keep going. It's over the top, it's not a particulary good film but certainly no punches were held back and not a 'one shot' in sight. Ultimately, of course, with two combatants with an equally matched skill set but where one is male, the other female, the male would usually expect to win due to the physical advantage. (but it wouldn't necessarily manifest as a 'one shot')
I cannot stand seeing live-action women with long hair fist-fight, that flowing hair would only get caught/get in the way. They ought to keep it cut.
First thing in an apocalypse I am cutting my hair. Woman fighting in movies has been so inaccurate for so long. Using a weapon is an equaliser. But in hand to had regardless of generate, if you are smaller you Have to fight different against a larger opponent. And the amount of choking is incredibly gross.
They don't have to cut it, just bind it so nobody can pull their hair.
I can forgive it if a movie is stylised (like Kill Bill for instance.)
But you make a good point
That's why I loved how in Birds of Prey, Harley has hair ties and offers them.
I will say re: Wonder Woman that military close quarters combat around WWI was nearly non-existent beyond some boxing, bayonet drills, and probably how to use an entrenching tool as a weapon. Even today, if you find yourself in close proximity to an enemy combatant in IRL war, you're in a lot of trouble.
It’s funny. I’ve seen this in my suggestions and planned to watch it. Then after watching a Buffy vs. Sunday fight and they mentioned fighting like a girl and this was recommended next.
I’m wondering how Buffy and TV shows compare to the movies. I think that’s probably worth looking into. While Buffy is capable of badassing she’s also known to get beaten up sometimes. Maybe if it gets more common on TV it will become more acceptable in movies?
For example there we gay characters on MCU TV shows (pre-Disney+, I’m not quite caught up there) long before the first gay MCU movie character. There was a trans character on Jessica Jones, I don’t recall MCU Movies going there yet.
So perhaps a survey of TV shows might tell if the culture is progressing?
I find that in general TV is ahead of movies largely because there’s less money invested per product so they’re more willing to take chances on new talents and increased representation.
@@CouncilofGeeks
I figure that’s true. But I also think that it influences the population which makes it possible to hit the big screen later.
I recall a story about an early women’s marathon. I think it was early 20th century. The women got sick and passed out. I think they were probably going to ban women’s marathons as a result. But, really they were just ill prepared and not fragile. Today I don’t think anyone (important) gives a second thought about women participating in marathons.
I’d like to see a movie like Harrison Ford in Bladerunner. He took almost every beating they gave. In the end he was spared by the antagonists compassion in his final moments. Might make for interesting discussion.
I can’t recall if they’ve made movies like that. Maybe independent films?
How about Zula in Conan the Destroyer?
Love that you called Jessica Chastain Bryce Dallas Howard
I wish I could claim that was satire.
I also thought of Sarah Connor as she was trying to escape the mental hospital in T2. This is of course, BEFORE she got a gun in her hand. Cara vs the Mandalorian when they first met. This video was very entertaining to watch.
this was really interesting! not my favourite movie but this is why the staircase scene from atomic blonde is incredible!
Maybe this kind of thing doesn't apply to animated movies, but I remember - in Incredibles 2 - Elastagirl taking a fair few hits during her fight with the fake-out Screenslaver. It did stand out to me at the time.
Haven't seen the second Incredibles, but Elastigirl (did she ever get a name update now that she's, y'know a *woman?)* seems like an exception due to her powers, a bit like Laura in Wolverine.
“ Badass “ Hm, I’m gonna use that term now everytime I see this type of trope
I know you didn't focus only on the MCU but I honestly feel like this ties into the corporate "girlboss"-ery that's become so staple across Disney and other major companies/franchises. Like, we have this abundance of conventionally thin attractive women, who you'll probably never see looking less than put together, doing things that should be incredibly basic and normal but are treated with this absolute reverence. Like "can you *believe* a *woman* did that ??!!! A *girl* can be strong and sassy and badass too that's so CrAzY!!!" It's like these CEOs heard about 2nd wave feminism three years ago and realized they could use it as a marketing tactic. I could be drawing a connection where there isn't one because again that's mostly a recent Disney phenomenon, and this weird trend happens across superhero/action movies from many companies, but it just.... idk it all kind of makes me feel icky honestly. It's very patronizing
Great video.
Also, you are looking incredibly cool today... not that you don't always look cool, but today you're exuding coolness. Jus' sayin'.
I think it's a little bit ridiculous to treat any differently masculine and feminine super heroes (and villains). Even if you believe that human men are on average physically stronger than women, that difference is negligible by comparison with super powers. There's no reason to believe that perceived difference would be applicable in these situations.
Plus the fight scenes are always more satisfying when they get a bit brutal...
PS next live stream that's not at 4am Australian time, I'll jump in and send a super chat or whatnot in support. Recent subscriber and have been working my way through your vids. Impressed so far.
First off: The Mandalorian S1, first encounter between Din Djarin and Cara Dune. I would not like to fight her.
Second. I would like to partially challenge the notion of the Machiavellian overlord saying "we cannot have women fighting". Let's be clear, there is (probably) no such person or group of people. However, as service providers the big brand movie makers are forced to keep an ear to the ground. They absolutely have to try and make out how the public will react to things in their movies, be it by looking at what is going on in the world, focus groups, expert consultants, twitteristas or whatever. Point is, these huge companies hire people to keep an eye on the public and judge if something will work or not. And let me be frank, the public does not accept male on female violence in movies like female on male violence. Female on male is ok, but not the other way around.
It wasn't that long ago that the X-men franchise had an image of Mystique getting choked as part of their advertisement and they got slammed for promoting violence against women. Is there even an example of the opposite? One is considered normal, accepted by the public, the other is very much not.
So long story short, there is no Machiavellian overlord dictating what can be shown on screen, unless you count the public.
In shang chi . The martial art the was using was like tai chi which is supposed to look soft
The fight between Shang-chi and his sister was really bad for this, particularly as he was specifically not fighting back. Like it just turned into him getting beaten up while more or less defenceless. And it felt really out of character for Katy to be betting against him as well, kinda undermining their friendship a bit. It's the only bit in that movie that I really disliked.
I am a little disturbed by how much choking of female characters happens.
Its why I liked a South Korean show called my name ...it's on Netflix. The main character fights lots of guys, lots of hand to hand combat cause guns are rarely used..more of small knives, it's awesome and brutal. She gets really injured heh, like bloody stuff.
I was expecting you would talk about Spiderverse
I feel like animation is a whole other can of worms.
@@CouncilofGeeks fair
One thing you can't count one with a lot of martial arts movies is that the women get beat all to hell in their fights. The end scene of Lady Dragon where Cynthia Rothrock and Richard Norton go at it is *brutal* I'm somehow not surprised at your findings. I suspect the main problem with women not taking damage in superhero movies is partly cultural, and partly a worry that the production company will get called out for promoting abuse, or something similar.
Atomic Blonde has a 10minutes long scene with a fight in the stairs and walls between the female lead and several men. It as real as a fight can be she takes as many hits as a real woman could take in a real fight.
I tend to find most of the fight scenes in superhero movies super dull and without any real impact. Especially the CGI messes they frequently have as climaxes. But I've always found the women vs men fights especially dull. I usually ascribe it to plot armour, or the need to have female heros with no flaws, including no flaws in their fighting. But calling it badassing is fitting as well. And to be fair, plot armour is almost too kind. There's lots of cartoonishness to superhero movies, and that's fine. But the women fight scenes always feel especially cartoonish because suddenly it's like the men are droppped down to 50% speed so the women can get in their shots and knock them down before there's any real tension or threat to the fight. It's great to portray strong female heros getting into mix ups with male and female villains. But having them walk through the movie using a godmode cheat is incredibly dull to watch. Especially if there's not a lot of character stakes, which in plenty of superhero movies, there isn't much.
This was a great video. Thank you for doing a proper analysis without trying to pin some definite "agenda" on this like some UA-camrs do. I like that you seem to be having a genuine DISCUSSION and not a one-person political flame war.
Cheers on the work by the way. That's a lot of movies to watch for one video, and a lot of them are long and kind of dull. :p
Something I've noticed as a pro wrestling fan is that, on popular American TV wrestling at least, despite the knowledge that wrestling is not real fighting and that small men can take on much larger men (or even ones with supernatural powers), intergender wrestling is usually a big no-no. Occasionally there will be mixed tag matches in which the tag teams consist of a man and a woman in each team, but the rules are that when one opponent tags out the other team must tag out too, so only people of the same gender are wrestling each other (which makes the whole thing pretty frustrating to watch). Sometimes, typically near the end of the match, there can be rule breaking but it is almost always the woman getting a hit/move on a man. Even when a man is about to hit a woman there's some interference that prevents him from doing so. It's so obvious and frustrating what they're doing.
There is a lot more (very good!) intergender wrestling on the indies in America and Japan (and occasionally Impact which does have a TV deal though it's a lot smaller in production & audience than WWE & AEW). And the 2 largest male & female Japanese promotions (NJPW & Stardom) recently had an event together with multiple mixed tag matches where opponents were frequently breaking the rules with men & women both taking & getting hits on each other.
I think having separate divisions for men & women in promotions is perfectly fine, but never allowing intergender matches or never allowing a man to hit a woman when a woman can hit a man just seems really outdated and limiting. I know it's not the intention but it's still sexism.
I got hit by my sister. And it hurt like hell no matter what anyone tells you
Hawkeye had this. All of Kate’s fights were very evenly matched. She got plenty of hits in a lot of them. But that came at the same time as this video.