Loved the filter land discussion! i realyl love them in 3 color decks, but not in every deck. I love to play the filter lands in decks that lean very heavily towards one color, so that i can fix the color i lean into very heavily in both ways, depending on what i need.
We in our playgroup banned doublelands and instead "errated" the taplands (like Urborg Vulcano) in this way, that they come into play untapped. We have all the commander fun, without the money stress!
I was sad nobody mentioned the Planeshift Uncommon bounce trilands that come in untapped. These have done wonders in my three color decks and I've been able to play around that bounce effect similarly with Bog and Ash Barrens.
Honestly one of my favorite lands for my nekusar deck, even though most of my mana base enters tapped. Crosis's catacombs is under $2 according to decked out (sourced to card kingdom) currently
Myself, I think there are too many other also budget options I'd run first, same with the Karoos that Aidan mentioned in another comment. Once upon a time those were excellent lands, but at this point at least for me there are enough slightly better lands that are also fairly cheap. YMMV. That said the Karoos might have a place if you have lands you wanna bounce to replay for an ETB.
The Shadows over Innistrad lands or reveal lands are ok if you're playing a land heavy deck but I dont always like revealing that I have more lands in hand. But still I like the spookiness of that cycle
Ash barrens is actually even better than evolving wilds. Because one it is instant speed grab a land if that ever matters, like if you got extra mana one turn you can get another land right then and there to help keep your mana fast and fixed for future turns. But specifically it is better because the turn you cycle it, it will actually fix your mana that turn. Like imagine turn 4 you are playing feather and are stuck with 2 mountains and 1 plains in play. You can pay 1 red to cycle ashbarrens and get a plains into your hand and then because you haven't payed a land this turn you can play your plains and boom you have 2 white and a red to play feather. An evolving wilds wouldn't have got feather out that turn because the land you find is tapped, whereas with ash barrens a land you have is tapped.
About the 3-lands. I do agree that they are pretty good in 3/4 color decks, but I think they aren`t good in 5 color decks, unless the player is playing on an extreme budget. I remember when I bought my Draconic Domination precon, all 10 of the 3-lands were in there and even tho they offered pretty good fixing, they were also a serious hit to the deck`s tempo. Once I switched them with the battle lands + 5 check lands, the deck`s mana base started functioning much better. (this all happened after I put in more ramp sorceries , Chromatic Lantern and more good stuff lands like Evolving Wilds, Terramorphic Expanse, Fabled Passage etc.)
I still run the vivid's in my animar deck which is fairly tuned and also runs abur duals and cradle and what not. They're also pretty decent in Atraxa.
One thing I like to do in my three or four color decks is the have a variety of different lands. I never have more than one from the same cycle plus I do think it helps to not go overboard in them and have a good amount of basics. I'd also like to know what you all think about the tri-cycle lands from Ikoria.
I think I like the Odyssey filter lands significantly more, because other than really interactive decks that need perfect mana flexibility (at which point the Lorwyn ones also suck btw) they fix you for 2 off of whatever other mana source you have. You're never going to keep a hand with 1 filter land in it, so it's always good for it's 2 types by the time you play it. I'd rather have a land that is easier to activate but can't pointlessly tap for 1 colorless, but as noted things change if your deck requires colorless mana for something. That said, I bet they were hot garbage in 4 of 60 card formats, because you do not want to have a hand with 3 filter lands and no other mana source, a thing that happens if you play a lot and run 8 or more of them of various types, hoping to get good fixing for a 'good stuff' build. Edit: I use check lands in a 3 color deck that uses a total of 8 cards with each relevant type, and I almost never have them come in tapped. I am more likely to have a 2 color mana screw of 4 or 5 lands, but at least the check came in untapped. I feel like you'd want close to 10 of the relevant type to make a check worth including, so they are strictly bad in lots of really high budget decks, though they do work with true duals. They shine in budget decks that are trying to go fast I'd say, with 3 colors being the sweet spot I'd say.
I like a good dimir guildgate and similar. Turn 1 no sacrifice. Turn 2 extra mana to drop. Fetch and sacrifice feel like alot of work unless your build requires it.
I would play the vivids in colors with bad ramp/fixing, or in proliferate decks when I’m on a budget, as well as 5 color on a budget. I actually like the check lands in some budget decks with heavier ramp/basic counts, but at that point I can just play a basic and use ramp spells to the same effect. So I’m less inclined to use them in two color decks. Other than finishing cycles I kind of wish they had check/filter lands that were dual type and therefore searchable as a better budget choice for shocks or original duals.
Wilderness reclamation makes a bunch of lands better, especially in a landfall deck, with instant speed ramp. I play all the tap fetchlands in my 4 color omnath specifically because I play wilderness and budget.
A favorite land of mine is Grove of the Burnwillows. It comes in untapped, tapps for a generic, but can tap for a green or red at the cost of giving each opponent one life. Best part is the art is quite beautiful.
I really hope path of ancestry gets reprinted to death, I love the card for many decks, especially if your commander is a generic tribe (like human, soldier, warrior), you will often have more overlap than you think to get some scrys off. And in 3+ color, it's almost an auto include for me. But I don't like paying a lot for a fixing land, and the price is getting pretty steep for what is a (commander) common.
>Vivid lands also affect your own reflecting pool If you are running both of these in the same deck you need to get your life in check (not optimizing bang for buck)
I'm still so confused about commander land bases. I have 3 decks, all 3 colour from the commander 2020 precons... The Mardu, Temur and Jeskai In terms of lands I have: Fetchs: Flooded Strand Bloodstained Mire Rainbow: Mana Confluence Reflecting Pool Prismatic Vista City of Brass Fabled Passage Path of Ancestry All the shocks All the checks All the bounces All the temples All the signets All the triomes All the tapped 3 colour lands Most the pain lands that can produce colourless Most the filters A couple of the pain lands that can draw Allied Battle Lands Allied Show lands The allied 2 colour cycling lands 2 of the fast lands The thing is, by the time I've added both the fetchs I have (which both work in all 3 decks), Mana Confluence , Reflecting Pool, Prismatic Vista, City of Brass, Fabled Passage, Path of Ancestry, 3 shocks, 3 checks, a triome, a tapped tri land and lets say 5 utility lands, I have hardly any room left for basics, should I even be running additional fixing after that? What makes it even harder is my mardu deck is really heavy white, my temur deck is slightly heavy blue, especially early, so all the allied only lands pull my mana the wrong way. tappedout.net/mtg-decks/jirina-kudro-edh-upgradedhelp-advice-appreciate/ tappedout.net/mtg-decks/cycling-etb-based-gavi/ tappedout.net/mtg-decks/kalamax-upgrade-3/ Any advice appreciated it's giving me a headache...
I would consider cutting angel and swapping out your tainted lands for basics. You want a few more to make your check lands more consistent. My version of the deck curves out at 4 with a relatively similar mana base (32 lands 10 rocks) and performs quite consistently.
Shock lands DO NOT go in every deck. They would have been borderline wasted slots in my 6 color Eldrazi deck. BTW, land gripe: We simply don't have enough lands that can produce colorless as well as any color of mana.
Great Discussion! Check lands are great, if your check lands enter tapped, get rid of tri lands and temples and all that garbage tbh. And signet lands are secretly really good, love them in artifact decks where I run all the colorless rocks
I'm a big fan of the podcast and love the insights you guys have. One small bit of constructive criticism, though: my man Joey talks way too fast sometimes and also kinda softly here and there. Makes it harder to listen to.
Just started listening recently. Really enjoy the content. But this comment is so true once I started to pay attention to it. He could definitely have a side gig as an auctioneer.
talking about fixing your colors: "Yeah, those lands fix your mana, but I am lucky enough to not have to run them." LULW Being kind of a completetist I am currently building a deck for every color combination with cards from my collection and the occassional buying of a box of a new set. Trust me: You play every single fixing land you can get your hands on. Maybe 4-5 of my decks (mostly 4 color and 3 color greenless) decks have actual mana bases consisting of not etb tapped fixing lands and lots of basics. TL;DR: Why say "I have enough of the "good" lands, idc whether worse lands are playable or not when talking about mana fixing?? Edit: To clarify, I still liked the episode, I just think, it comes off as a bit... arrogant? Just don't mention things like these. We likely all know that we should run Fetches + Shocks + Untapped Lands. But not all of us can all the time. Just my 2 cents. Have a nice day!
Definitely didnt come off as arrogant, he was asked what his opinion was and he gave it; they arent bad but obviously there are better options. If you’re looking for things to be offended by then this world is going to be all sorts of grey too often.
i spend $0 on Lands for commander, i don't look for Lands if i pull a land cool it'll go directly into a deck. id rather spend money on better ramp. what would you rather have 1 of 2 colors or more mana? id rather have more mana. it really depends on the type of decks and how many colors you run, like a 2 color commander pshh im almost find with some basics and maybe some utility lands, but in a 5 color deck...i totally understand getting the most out of your lands, i wouldn't spend $500 on a duel land but than again im fine if EVERYONE had access to those lands. i don't think its so powerful to just to have a duel land come in untapped in commander. i understand that it keeps color devotion in check...could you imagine if they made tri-color lands come in untapped? lol command tower should be like a $1000 land cause it taps for any color! its the ultimate commander land...oh but its only legal for commander basically so its only worth $1.??. and why haven't they made quad-lands yet? an land that taps for any 4 colors? im just saying i think ramp is more important than color fixing in commander. exclude other formats.
I was this way for a long time. I played non-basic land punishment like ruination and destructive flow coupled along side artifact hate to kill mana rocks and it won a surprising amount of games. Unfortunately some of those games weren't fun for my opponents so I eventually shifted away from it.
Loved the filter land discussion! i realyl love them in 3 color decks, but not in every deck. I love to play the filter lands in decks that lean very heavily towards one color, so that i can fix the color i lean into very heavily in both ways, depending on what i need.
Green duels, Tris, etc... for ramp in 4 colour / 5 colour decks
aragonjohn7 what’s ramp about it??
I love each of your card borders! Nice touch!
Yes, they should have used land borders
We in our playgroup banned doublelands and instead "errated" the taplands (like Urborg Vulcano) in this way, that they come into play untapped.
We have all the commander fun, without the money stress!
I was sad nobody mentioned the Planeshift Uncommon bounce trilands that come in untapped. These have done wonders in my three color decks and I've been able to play around that bounce effect similarly with Bog and Ash Barrens.
Honestly one of my favorite lands for my nekusar deck, even though most of my mana base enters tapped. Crosis's catacombs is under $2 according to decked out (sourced to card kingdom) currently
Myself, I think there are too many other also budget options I'd run first, same with the Karoos that Aidan mentioned in another comment. Once upon a time those were excellent lands, but at this point at least for me there are enough slightly better lands that are also fairly cheap. YMMV. That said the Karoos might have a place if you have lands you wanna bounce to replay for an ETB.
@@danaroach29 I just love scrolling through cards and finding little treasures like Lairs and going, "Wait it does what now?"
In my mono blue Talrand I love running the blue bounce land so I can get a second use out of a Halimar Depths.
My 4 colour frog tribal deck loves the lairs.
I'm fully in love with Joey Schultz. He's smart, good looking and adorable. But most importantly, he loves Golgari.
The Shadows over Innistrad lands or reveal lands are ok if you're playing a land heavy deck but I dont always like revealing that I have more lands in hand. But still I like the spookiness of that cycle
Ash barrens is actually even better than evolving wilds. Because one it is instant speed grab a land if that ever matters, like if you got extra mana one turn you can get another land right then and there to help keep your mana fast and fixed for future turns. But specifically it is better because the turn you cycle it, it will actually fix your mana that turn. Like imagine turn 4 you are playing feather and are stuck with 2 mountains and 1 plains in play. You can pay 1 red to cycle ashbarrens and get a plains into your hand and then because you haven't payed a land this turn you can play your plains and boom you have 2 white and a red to play feather. An evolving wilds wouldn't have got feather out that turn because the land you find is tapped, whereas with ash barrens a land you have is tapped.
I'm in love with land that does something special so I run them all
About the 3-lands. I do agree that they are pretty good in 3/4 color decks, but I think they aren`t good in 5 color decks, unless the player is playing on an extreme budget. I remember when I bought my Draconic Domination precon, all 10 of the 3-lands were in there and even tho they offered pretty good fixing, they were also a serious hit to the deck`s tempo. Once I switched them with the battle lands + 5 check lands, the deck`s mana base started functioning much better. (this all happened after I put in more ramp sorceries , Chromatic Lantern and more good stuff lands like Evolving Wilds, Terramorphic Expanse, Fabled Passage etc.)
I still run the vivid's in my animar deck which is fairly tuned and also runs abur duals and cradle and what not. They're also pretty decent in Atraxa.
The pain lands are an old favorite of mine.
Also check lands are more reliable if you are in green due to how green ramp spells operate.
One thing I like to do in my three or four color decks is the have a variety of different lands. I never have more than one from the same cycle plus I do think it helps to not go overboard in them and have a good amount of basics.
I'd also like to know what you all think about the tri-cycle lands from Ikoria.
I love bounce lands with mortuary mire
I think I like the Odyssey filter lands significantly more, because other than really interactive decks that need perfect mana flexibility (at which point the Lorwyn ones also suck btw) they fix you for 2 off of whatever other mana source you have. You're never going to keep a hand with 1 filter land in it, so it's always good for it's 2 types by the time you play it. I'd rather have a land that is easier to activate but can't pointlessly tap for 1 colorless, but as noted things change if your deck requires colorless mana for something.
That said, I bet they were hot garbage in 4 of 60 card formats, because you do not want to have a hand with 3 filter lands and no other mana source, a thing that happens if you play a lot and run 8 or more of them of various types, hoping to get good fixing for a 'good stuff' build.
Edit: I use check lands in a 3 color deck that uses a total of 8 cards with each relevant type, and I almost never have them come in tapped. I am more likely to have a 2 color mana screw of 4 or 5 lands, but at least the check came in untapped. I feel like you'd want close to 10 of the relevant type to make a check worth including, so they are strictly bad in lots of really high budget decks, though they do work with true duals. They shine in budget decks that are trying to go fast I'd say, with 3 colors being the sweet spot I'd say.
Late to this discussion, but the bounce lands are great in my landfall Aesi, since the deck tends to let me play ~4 lands per turn.
I like a good dimir guildgate and similar. Turn 1 no sacrifice. Turn 2 extra mana to drop. Fetch and sacrifice feel like alot of work unless your build requires it.
I would play the vivids in colors with bad ramp/fixing, or in proliferate decks when I’m on a budget, as well as 5 color on a budget.
I actually like the check lands in some budget decks with heavier ramp/basic counts, but at that point I can just play a basic and use ramp spells to the same effect. So I’m less inclined to use them in two color decks.
Other than finishing cycles I kind of wish they had check/filter lands that were dual type and therefore searchable as a better budget choice for shocks or original duals.
Here's an idea: Into the North + the 5 allied snow duals
You missed an underrated budget any color land. Transguilded Promenade.
Transguild Promenade does not allow turn 2 ramp (Rampant Growth, Farseek, Nature's Lore, Signets, Talismans).
I feel like a lot of lands were not mentioned and still talking about color fixing ie riftstone portal.
How you gonna challenge the stats on a card that is like a month old?
I love the vivid lands in my sliver deck.
I play a couple of man-lands in narset for when someone makes me sacrifice a creature, it's pretty useful.
Wilderness reclamation makes a bunch of lands better, especially in a landfall deck, with instant speed ramp. I play all the tap fetchlands in my 4 color omnath specifically because I play wilderness and budget.
This was a great episode. I had completely forgotten about fast lands. I tabbed over and grabbed one for Skullbriar.
A favorite land of mine is Grove of the Burnwillows. It comes in untapped, tapps for a generic, but can tap for a green or red at the cost of giving each opponent one life. Best part is the art is quite beautiful.
Super expensive tho 💀
Didn’t mention lands like Myriad Landscape and Krosan Verge, which not only help you color fix, but ramp as well.
Blighted Woodland entered the chat
Is there part 2 for land ramp and mana rocks?
I really hope path of ancestry gets reprinted to death, I love the card for many decks, especially if your commander is a generic tribe (like human, soldier, warrior), you will often have more overlap than you think to get some scrys off. And in 3+ color, it's almost an auto include for me. But I don't like paying a lot for a fixing land, and the price is getting pretty steep for what is a (commander) common.
Commander Legends
Commander Legends
Theres also the lairs set for 3 land cards that are pretty neat tri lands
They are fixing attached to negative ramp (they set back their controller 1 mana in future turns).
>Vivid lands also affect your own reflecting pool
If you are running both of these in the same deck you need to get your life in check (not optimizing bang for buck)
I'm still so confused about commander land bases.
I have 3 decks, all 3 colour from the commander 2020 precons... The Mardu, Temur and Jeskai
In terms of lands I have:
Fetchs:
Flooded Strand
Bloodstained Mire
Rainbow:
Mana Confluence
Reflecting Pool
Prismatic Vista
City of Brass
Fabled Passage
Path of Ancestry
All the shocks
All the checks
All the bounces
All the temples
All the signets
All the triomes
All the tapped 3 colour lands
Most the pain lands that can produce colourless
Most the filters
A couple of the pain lands that can draw
Allied Battle Lands
Allied Show lands
The allied 2 colour cycling lands
2 of the fast lands
The thing is, by the time I've added both the fetchs I have (which both work in all 3 decks), Mana Confluence
, Reflecting Pool, Prismatic Vista, City of Brass, Fabled Passage, Path of Ancestry, 3 shocks, 3 checks, a triome, a tapped tri land and lets say 5 utility lands, I have hardly any room left for basics, should I even be running additional fixing after that?
What makes it even harder is my mardu deck is really heavy white, my temur deck is slightly heavy blue, especially early, so all the allied only lands pull my mana the wrong way.
tappedout.net/mtg-decks/jirina-kudro-edh-upgradedhelp-advice-appreciate/
tappedout.net/mtg-decks/cycling-etb-based-gavi/
tappedout.net/mtg-decks/kalamax-upgrade-3/
Any advice appreciated it's giving me a headache...
I would consider cutting angel and swapping out your tainted lands for basics. You want a few more to make your check lands more consistent. My version of the deck curves out at 4 with a relatively similar mana base (32 lands 10 rocks) and performs quite consistently.
@@jameskirkland6916 I will try this thank you!
Hopefully they print more things like Krosan Verge.
slow fetches are a must in my kenrith deck. ofc fetches are better, but i prefer to get triomes with slow fetches than wastin 30-90$ on a land..
Shock lands DO NOT go in every deck. They would have been borderline wasted slots in my 6 color Eldrazi deck. BTW, land gripe: We simply don't have enough lands that can produce colorless as well as any color of mana.
Great Discussion! Check lands are great, if your check lands enter tapped, get rid of tri lands and temples and all that garbage tbh. And signet lands are secretly really good, love them in artifact decks where I run all the colorless rocks
I've had 1 game where my commander was trapped under an Imprisoned In The Moon and my bounce land was able to save him
I remember the game that i was playing a x1 and he turned my muldrotha into a forest and i turned him windgrace into a wastes
@@MasterP86 lol all the removal in my Arcades deck is like that, turning the threat into a useless potato
What about Rainbow Vale???
We'll get enemy-colored battlelands in Zendikar Rising for sure.
Hopefully in the commander legends set tbh
Nevermind, I was thinking about battlebond lands lmao
I heard we may be getting more fetch lands in zendikar rising
Or the Visions bounce lands that tap for a colored mana and 1 generic mana.
That isnt color fixing
I'm a big fan of the podcast and love the insights you guys have. One small bit of constructive criticism, though: my man Joey talks way too fast sometimes and also kinda softly here and there. Makes it harder to listen to.
Just started listening recently. Really enjoy the content. But this comment is so true once I started to pay attention to it. He could definitely have a side gig as an auctioneer.
You're all wrong colourless is the best colour to fix mana
i agree 100% about dice on lands. i am stop running blast zone for this reason.
MYRIAD LANDSCAPE
Man I hate fighting a bloodmoon
Mutavault can be deece if you have a tribal deck.
Matt Morgan looks like Phil Hellmuth's son.
You guys missed fast lands
because they were too fast
I miss the more innocent days when etbt lands were just fine.
I like the fact that the format has gotten faster and more powerful
They are still fine
talking about fixing your colors: "Yeah, those lands fix your mana, but I am lucky enough to not have to run them." LULW Being kind of a completetist I am currently building a deck for every color combination with cards from my collection and the occassional buying of a box of a new set. Trust me: You play every single fixing land you can get your hands on. Maybe 4-5 of my decks (mostly 4 color and 3 color greenless) decks have actual mana bases consisting of not etb tapped fixing lands and lots of basics.
TL;DR: Why say "I have enough of the "good" lands, idc whether worse lands are playable or not when talking about mana fixing??
Edit: To clarify, I still liked the episode, I just think, it comes off as a bit... arrogant? Just don't mention things like these. We likely all know that we should run Fetches + Shocks + Untapped Lands. But not all of us can all the time.
Just my 2 cents. Have a nice day!
Definitely didnt come off as arrogant, he was asked what his opinion was and he gave it; they arent bad but obviously there are better options.
If you’re looking for things to be offended by then this world is going to be all sorts of grey too often.
They came off as elitist
i spend $0 on Lands for commander, i don't look for Lands if i pull a land cool it'll go directly into a deck. id rather spend money on better ramp. what would you rather have 1 of 2 colors or more mana? id rather have more mana. it really depends on the type of decks and how many colors you run, like a 2 color commander pshh im almost find with some basics and maybe some utility lands, but in a 5 color deck...i totally understand getting the most out of your lands, i wouldn't spend $500 on a duel land but than again im fine if EVERYONE had access to those lands. i don't think its so powerful to just to have a duel land come in untapped in commander. i understand that it keeps color devotion in check...could you imagine if they made tri-color lands come in untapped? lol command tower should be like a $1000 land cause it taps for any color! its the ultimate commander land...oh but its only legal for commander basically so its only worth $1.??. and why haven't they made quad-lands yet? an land that taps for any 4 colors? im just saying i think ramp is more important than color fixing in commander. exclude other formats.
I was this way for a long time. I played non-basic land punishment like ruination and destructive flow coupled along side artifact hate to kill mana rocks and it won a surprising amount of games. Unfortunately some of those games weren't fun for my opponents so I eventually shifted away from it.
A normal person can't afford duel lands so this video is pointless
I'm a normal person.....I have 4 dual lands.
ewe r pointless