How to Deal with and Prevent Cupping Deck Boards
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- Опубліковано 4 гру 2018
- One of the most common reasons for your deck boards rotting is that they have cupped. This can be prevented in a couple of ways, including buying boards with stress relief cuts, or installing your boards with this problem in mind.
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That explained, everything, extremely clearly. Thank you 😁
Dude. This video was more educational with straight to the point information and well defined terminology helped me out a lot. I watched a ton of videos on this topic as a massive kitchen island top (5’ x 9’) I made out of maple has started to cup in a a couple of the boards. I haven’t finished it yet so I’ve been using online tips to spray wet the concave Side of two board (one outside board 13” wide and interior board 3rd board in and 12” wide) and clamping with cauls to try and RE flatten. It was perfectly flat after glue up, bow toes &!epoxying, and 40 grit sand. In meantime of waiting to install my c channel I let it sit a couple days unfinished and unclamped. Not a great idea. I’ve gotten it back flat side to side with a little bit of cup (cup side down currently) in the middle 2 boards (6 total). I’ve been thinking about cutting a 1/2” kerf cut to “break the back of the convex side of the cup that’s on the bottom of the panel. Is this a good idea?
There are videos on UA-cam saying the opposite of what you are saying. I think I am going with what you said, because you had an example of a Cupped board. Barkside down!! Yes.
I'm seeing the exact opposite while I'm removing old pieces of deck board, ie. The only ones that cupped did it opposite direction he shows and were installed the way he suggests. I'm totally conflicted now
@@takeit1229 It seems to always go that way, that is, conflicting opinions and directions. Conflicting information is the norm these days. Hang in there and thanks!
I would suggest showing a close up of the wood. You were talking about the grain, but I could not see which way the grain was running because the camera was focused on you, instead of the wood.😖
The great barkside up/ down debate
You would think that with the grain smile up moisture would permeate into the open grain . But with the board crowning high Centre on top it will definitely shed water better ! Thank you 👍🤔
thanks
Thanks for watching!
Thank you. Very good video. So, if I wanted to add pressure-relief grooves, what spacing should they be and how deep should they be?
That is what I was just thinking.
@@FeguerFineArt In the end I used 1x4 cedar decking and made one central kerf cut about 1/2 the thickness of the board. If 2x6 decking was used I would have put in 2 kerf cuts to about 1/2 depth. My deck is covered but the front gets wet. There has been no cupping. Each tree ring forms a plate, and with humidity and moisture exposure those plates absorb moisture and both expand and contract. The idea of the kerf cuts is about the same as expansion joints in cement: it gives a place for the expansion and contraction without deforming the board. I also stained and sealed both sides of the boards before putting them on. That keeps the moisture absorption even on both sides and reduces cupping, something I picked up from watching cabinet-making videos.
so then... bark side down, crown. bark side up, cup? So then for decking, always install bark side down? in other words, all boards should be installed with a "smiley face" on the end?
Yes, that is my understanding as well. You can find other videos that have similar advice. You want a smiley face on the ends when you install.
I don’t know why they don’t say have the wood grain form a smile, just like you will be doing on a finished deck.
I have a Makita Trac saw I have I’ll use
So you are saying go bark side down, and the majority of conventional knowledge says go bark side up. I’m confused...
Please, keep doing video’s
Zoom in on the wood next time. Thank for the video and info.
I'm only commenting here as a student sent me this link with confusion about which way flooring/decking should best be laid after watching this video, and which way wood warps...
I'm sorry to be corrective and I apologize in advance if any of this is counter to your understanding but much of what you have stated in this video is either partly inaccurate or simply not within the empirical history of "best practice," in woodworking. It does (unfortunately) illustrate the disconnect in modern contracting work and the breakdown of the traditional understanding of wood...
As a point of validation and reference, I have been in the practice of architectural design, building, and teaching traditional guild and folk arts for over 40 years...In line with the topic of this video at the apex of the craft of dock, deck, and porch architecture...I design and build them with...GREEN WOOD...fresh off the mill in a number of rot-resistant species. This is done with...NO HARDWARE...only traditional wood to wood joinery holding all the structural elements together (including the decking) just as was traditionally done with a proven track record of success going back over 4000 years. Structures built this way have no issue meeting a 25-year life span...IF...!!!...the person doing the design work and building actually understands wood, wood movement, grain orientation and actually knows woodworking in the full context of the craft...
The annular rings...are not!!!...trying to go flat at all. What they do experience is grain cell contraction due to drying and constricting over time (a good reason wood was oiled and waxed to slow and mitigate this from happening.)
Grain matching and orientation are critical to good long last construction...As the old saying goes..." ...frowns always try to turn to smiles..." This is why...BARK UP...is standard practice unless "pith cut" or "quarter sawn," if the goal is durability overtime...
There are countless traditional orientations found all over the world (European vs Easter modalities) yet the most come "best practice" is quarter-sawn wood or the next best orientation is "bark side up,"...
I can't speak to what others here "think" or may have read, think they know, or understand...but from a traditional perspective..."bark side"...is typically what faces up for the walking surface or any place skin contact is going to be common...This comes from the practicality, durability, and safety perspectives...!!!
The bark side...ALWAYS...!!!...face up because the longest splinters and the most significant potential for delamination in wood (regardless of species) take place on the pith side of any piece of wood...
There is much more to this topic regarding means, material application, and modalities of work...whether modern or traditional, the latter being my specialization...
I have to disagree with something you said.
First of all you are correct about the grain cell contraction. Wood shrinks mostly in the tangential direction. ie. along the path of the rings. So when you look at a piece of lumber, a longer growth ring is going to shrink more than a shorter one. So yes, frowns try to turn into smiles.
But that means you should be installing deck boards with the smile facing up. ie. bark side down. The bark side is going to contract more than the centre of the tree. Therefore causing the lumber to cup towards the bark side.
@@tchevrier Hi tchevrier...I welcome any comments/questions...so let me address each of your points...
You wrote: "...So yes, frowns try to turn into smiles..." but that means you should be installing deck boards with the smile facing up. ie. bark side down..."
ABSOLUTELY NOT...in virtually all applications is this true at all...!!!...and is a common (too common)..." modern"...understanding of wood that has grown out of the massive disconnect with understanding wood from a traditional and intimate manner...You are correct that the wood is going to..."try"...and cup but the traditional and knowledgable Timber, House, or Woodwright understands this and takes advantage of it...
Since I actually design and build decks with "green wood" (and have for over 40 years) I'm not only speaking from historical knowledge I was taught as an apprentice Barnwright...but from decades of first-hand experience as well for why these vernacular methods work...and the modern approaches (i.e. bark down) DOES NOT WORK AT ALL!!! Let's take the green deck as a great example as this is one of the most extreme applications of traditional woodworking I have practiced with success...
First, with the...bark side up...the wood is exposed to water more often than the underside is, thus always trying to expand counter to its normal drying pattern even though the wood is..." oiled and wax"...Please note I did not say "sealed" as one should NEVER attempt the folly of trying to seal the wood. It is impossible to seal wood...but is possible to trap interstitial moisture and facilitate rapid decay which modern plastic paints and other industrial finishes commonly do...
Second, whatever direction the wood moves in an..." all wood joinery deck"...the joinery is designed to allow expansion-contraction but mitigates or arrests warping twisting, and buckling...if the joint design does not do this, then the wrong joinery was used...or...the wood member was not properly assessed when it came off the mill...
The third, reason NEVER to place a deck, floor, railing, or other "skin contact" piece of wood with the pith side up is because of delamination and splinter size generation when the wood is positioned this way. Take a species like spruce, which is a common wood flooring in some traditional. Wood in the"pith up" orientation (unless clear quarter sawn lumber) can effectively generate splinters over a meter long and are very sharp and thin. When a client complains of long splinters being an issue you can guarantee that 99.9% of the time it's from a piece of wood with the pith facing up toward human contact...Over time, delamination is also an issue as wood in this orientation (especially on decks!!!) acts just like cups holding moisture in the cell structure, and then, over time, from constant foot traffic delaminates just as when we pound splints for basket making...because peeling toward the pith generation the greatest amount of long thin piece of wood...
If you have other questions, I'm more than open to them...Want to see a great example of what I am speaking of...here is a link to a dear friend and person I mentor in traditional woodcraft...The project in the video is of green wood by modern standards of wood moisture and please note the grain direction and his attention to proper detailing...
ua-cam.com/video/hvsvMzgiq6s/v-deo.html&ab_channel=Mr.Chickadee
@@JayCWhiteCloud I respectfully disagree with you.
We're not talking about green wood. Green wood has a moisture content way too high for shrinkage to be a factor. Wood tends to shrink when the moisture content is a lot lower. So once the moisture content of your green wood hits roughly 30% or so it will start to shrink and when it does it will curl towards the bark side.
@@tchevrier Green or dry...wood (in most cases) should be bark up. It is that case in virtually all traditions with some exceptions be it planks or timber the orientation is bark up...or top of the tree up root down as in timbers...
You lost me with your logic that..."...Green wood has a moisture content way too high for shrinkage to be a factor..."...??? That doesn't make any sense at all...as working in green wood is one of the most (if not most?) challenging forms of woodworking because of the massive shrinkage in the wood as it dries and suggests that you have zero experience with ever attempting this method, but do correct me if I'm mistaken and you have such experience. Please share what green to dry woodworking you have done, as I would be interested in reading about your experience...
Additionally...your comment that..."Wood tends to shrink when the moisture content is a lot lower" is an absolutely false and inaccurate statement to a great degree...I am stating that not only as a traditional woodworker but also as Sawyer having milled most of the wood I use for over 40 years and/or worked directly with traditional Sawyers. Wood...MOVES...(shrinkage is only part of it)... as it dries from saturated to fully dry in a fairly consistent manner and thus can expand again which happens all too common these days with the horrid practice of poorly done "kiln drying." I have seen more massive issues from this than from shrinkage as the wood expands and blows furniture apart or even entire structures because of limited knowledge of wood movement...
Yes...wood does curl toward the bark...There is nothing wrong with that if you plan for it with proper joinery...as the wood can be arrested from doing so...We can most certainly respectfully disagree on this topic, as many do, but as of yet none do that actually have experience working with wood in the traditional context or in the green woodworking modalities...The disagreement always comes from "modern" woodworkers and those with limited knowledge of actual wood product management from the forest to the finished product...which kind of makes this a lopsided conversation...You are disagreeing based on what you "think" you understand about wood...I'm basing my replies on being traditionally trained in wood and related vernacular arts...as well as...40 years of applied success in what I have stated above...
@@JayCWhiteCloud Oh you did reply. I hadn't seen a notification. But I do see that you've resorted to some ad hominen arguments.
Anyways. Let's address your last comment.
"Yes... wood does curl towards the bark". That's the entire point. Wood will curl towards the bark as it dries. Therefore when you are building a deck, cupping is an undesirable condition that will cause more problems than it solves. Therefore since you do not want that, you should place the wood bark side down. That's the point. That said, if you are already starting off with dry lumber, the situation might be reversed.
Now with respect to the rest of your comment. Do you not understand the principles of how and why wood shrinks when it dries? Wood shrinks when it looses bound water, not free water.
Question I have is, my deck is prime 2x6 treated fur , and cupping has begun on "ONE side of most of the ends" where the match up to another end board. The deck is 10 month old looked great right after install but now its cupping and if left alone will become ugly and a trip hazard. The so called contractor whom built the deck side screwed the deck to the joists and did not top screw it for appearance reasons. So my question is could anything be done now to suck the cups down to the joists? My thoughts have been to just top screw it down. If that don't work I will ( in time ) replace the decking. I also beleave the scab contractor undersized the joists , but that's a whole different issue. any advise on the cupping.
Cup up board will flatten
Relief curf cutting deck boards on a 5000SF deck ain't happining. Bark side down, and if your old enough you'll be dead before they cup and rot.
So many get it wrong, always have the grain smiling at you. Easy
Someone below said bark side up. Is this contrary to what you suggest here. Not saying you are wrong.
@@elzorro7235 go to an old deck at the beach and look at the Grain and see what it's doing
I did it with Woodglut.
Barkside up...that is all I Know. Bark side down then you get cupping in the middle on top!
I watched a video from "Fix It John" who showed a year-old deck exposed to the weather. All the cupped boards had bark-side up. The boards that were bark-side down didn't cup. It's hard to argue with consistent visual evidence. So, I think you've got it backwards.
@@slydog7131 I have got the same results in reverse. So with that said. If it is screwed at 3/4 from the edge all the same...you will have no problems. Think about if you have to flip a board for some reason. Reality is...for PT. Bark site up. I have done it with Douglas fur 1x4 decking..just pulled one up that was done 30 years ago. Not one cupped board. A few rotted ones. It is all how you mechanically attach them. Deck Screws and no nails...
We had one that was down for a year some bark side some bark side down. Was installed in the winter in the Northeast. All the bark-side down cupped. Flipped them over the next season. They a are fine. Now you will find minor cupping on back side up but minor. I think it is to do with how the boards where treated with the chemicals. How wet at application? How dried. Was heat involved? Were they frozen during install? The above was PT
All I know is that I have done over a 100 Decks-porches and entrances, PT, Fur, Mahogoney...all bark up. Never a problem. The one cupping we got was bark side DOWN on several boards
@@skiprope536 Seems to be an unsettled issue with more than just wood grain involved. After reading and watching more, I'm tending towards cutting several pressure-relief grooves 1/2" deep on the underside, treating the grooves with preservative, and sealing all sides of the boards to try to reduce differences in moisture flow. I'll also be much more attentive when selecting boards to try to avoid ones that are predisposed to warping and cupping to start with. Hopefully that will stabilize the wood. I'll be installing decking in about a month so I'm trying to figure this all out to get the best results.
Finished flooring most of it is bark down. It all depends on condition of wood.
Then lets talk PT..5/4 X 6 who's actual dimension is 1 inch by 5.75 or 5.5 Depends on shrinkage in the end result. My experience you turn em to the good side which is always the bark up for me.
@@slydog7131 This guy was using 2 x lumber and not 5/4 hard yellow pine.
Woodglut is a good solution for every woodworker.
All these "cupping vs. crowning" deck videos are unnecessarily verbose and ultimately confusing. Just say it... in 10 words or less: "Install the smile, it lasts a while." It's not a Physics thesis.