Why NOBODY will build EV charging stations | MGUY Australia
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- Опубліковано 29 вер 2024
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Your channel is on fire at an even greater rate than EV's. Well done and richly deserved. Cheers
wouldn't get too excited - he's putting out content that goes against the approved narrative - only a matter of time before he starts picking up community violations, demonetized and shadow banned once he's on the algorithm radar.
Everything he says is fundamentally wrong. His estimates of how long it takes to 'charge your car' are incorrect. Yes, if EVERY time you charge your car you are going from 0% SOC to 100% SOC it could well take 30 minutes @250 kW...but no EV owner ever does that. My typical routine is to plug in once a week at home overnight when the SOC gets to around 25%-30%. Do I care if it takes 8 to 10 hours to charge?...No, I'm sleeping ...I take it to 80% overnight so I wake up with another 350 km of range, more than enough for most people's week of driving. That costs me under €5....try filling your ICE tank for that much money!...On long trips I charge to 100% overnight and stop after 2 to 3 hours when I've done about 250 km...that was always my routine in ICE cars anyway. By that time the car is down to between 30 and 40% SOC so I plug in for 15-20 minutes while I grab a coffee and use the bathroom...that gets the car back up to 80% SOC..so I have 350 km of range again, plenty to finish off a 500km drive.
@@kiae-nirodiariesencore4270
What a royal PITA that must be.
@@kiae-nirodiariesencore4270 Totally unsuitable in Australia , where trips are longer and electricity is in short supply and rising in price due to an irrational supporting of unreliable renewable wind and large solar generation instead of coal generation.
@@kiae-nirodiariesencore4270 Your drive is clearly shorter than mine. Per 5 days of travel my car goes 400km. Also tonight's temperature will get to as low as -18C, which would be dreadful on the batteries with the heater also using up range. EVs need to be better than your experience to meet my needs.
Had to get a taxi today, my car was delivered to a garage for scheduled service and maintainance. The taxi was a battery car. The driver and owner of the taxi said that he liked to drive the car and that it worked great on local trips. On longer trips he was not too happy about it because of the range. It's -25C outside today, and he said that the car reported mileage at 50% of maximum range. He also said that the car would not charge to 100% in cold weather no matter how long he had it connected. He said he saved a bit on fuel cost compared to his diesel cars. In Norway electricity is rather cheap, also at charging stations because of tax credit incentives. My reply was, my old Toyota RAV4 diesel would go about the same distance regardless of the outside temps, and I would always get a full tank no matter the temperature. I also told him that outside Norway it might be more costly to operate a battery car as electricity prices are higher and tax incentives lower.
In Norway EV cars cost half or less of other cars due to the idioticly high taxes on cars... In UK a Nissan leaf cost the same as a BMW 3 series diesel, in Norway the same BMW cost more then double.
Government always interferes in the marketplace, distorting it and making it dysfunctional!!
I don’t believe you on EVs costing more. Show your math.
@@williammeek4078 - go cry to Hertz.
To be fair the reason Norway has cheap EVs is because they have so much oil that they have gotten rich from by exporting to other countries over many years. This has in turn allowed them to now invest in and favor EV technologies more than the other Nordic countries. However EVs are still not profitable alone just because there is a lot of them in Norway.
I live in rural Scotland, we had a 6 unit charging station installed in a central car park this summer, I park near it most days. So far the only time I have seen anyone park a car next to one of the charge points it has been a Diesel when the carpark is otherwise full. The problem is this small town is 75 miles from the next so an EV is hard to sell when a "local trip" is 150 miles return as a minimum. About once a month I need to do 800 - 900 miles in a single day, which I doubt is unique round here. Even if there was an EV that could fullfill my needs I wouldn't even be able to afford the VAT aspect of the purchase price.
We have ppl here in australia for whom 100km is the drive from the house to their gate.
Odd to see someone in Scotland using "miles". How'd that happen?
@@sugarnads a regular 150 mile round trip is an ideal case for an EV, particularly if you can charge at home off peak, you'll save thousands on fuel bill, which is why EVs are popular for high milers.
Imagine the amount of land and concrete needed to build massive charging stations to accommodate all those ev wanting to charge. Not forgetting the ones sitting having to wait as well. 🇬🇧
The funniest thing is that the same people who pushing for EV are the ones who says you can't have a AC at home coz that monster uses about avg. 0,5kW and thats ends mother gaia, while a car charging at 0,2MW is great coz thats saves it.
We can save the planet by making cars weigh 2 tonnes and filling them with toxic batteries.🤔
And charged with electricity generated by burning more coal and gas.
😂😂😂😂
That create a toxic cloud when they burst into flames.
@@gartblaum I read the term "Remote Combustion Vehicles" somewhere and think that describes them more accurately than EV.
The automotive industry definitely jumped on the idea of making cars heavier across the board because it drives up cost in all sectors. Heavier cars means brakes and tires wear out faster, more energy is needed to push the heavy mf, and more high damage collisions happen more often as a result of the increased weight hindering maneuverability in emergency situations, leading to more money spent on insurance, repairs, and new cars.
Nobody wants to use public chargers. Its a "last resort" situation. On top of that the power draw is ridiculous. A single ev charge park can pull the power of a village. The cost of that the station has to eat is insane. And people complain about "high bills" during summer. Imagine your power bill if you had to pay the bill of you and your entire block
Yes. I've been telling the pure-plug-in zealots for years: "No one wants to charge outside the home."
That means two things:
1. Range matters (600 miles EPA range minimum, or the market won't be captured).
2. Long trips would still be taken only with vehicles running on gasoline.
Getting to the point of putting a generator in the boot for long trips, hybrid@@aliendroneservices6621
You have no idea what you're talking about. Public rapid chargers are for trip continuance only. They consume a tiny amount of the total energy for driving an EV.
@@nisonatic Your logic is incorrect. The majority of EV owners DO live in cities, as do most of the population of any country.
If only electricity could be liquified and pumped quickly into cars. Perhaps someone will come up with something similar soon.
Electricity can be liquified. It's called e-fuel. However you need 5 times more energy and therefore it costs a lot more compared to direct charging. It is assumed there is no market for it as no one is willing to pay so much more.
Hydrogen cells
@@karlm9584 Hydrogen is also way more expensive.
@@gerbre1 than e-fuel?
@@karlm9584 Hydrogen is way more expensive than BEVs.
Having been into radio control cars. Planes. Helicopters etc my entire life I know that fast charging batteries is the best way to drastically reduce the life time of your batteries. Always better to trickle charge them. Presumably it’s the same with EVs. Fast charge all the time and knock 10 years off the life of your battery.
My iPhone has “optimized charging” which slow charges the battery overnight to prolong its life.
You have no idea what you're talking about. Your cordless drill or phone is not a sophisticated EV battery. Geez.
@JaxTellerRC: Retired EE agrees completely. Anyone who designs or works with batteries
composed of Li-ion cells understands the limits, And the need for battery management
systems to limit operation is excessive charge/discharge currents. If you exceed the limits
of the cell chemistry, you will learn.........the hard way.
@@justsomeguy934 There's nothing more sophisticated about an EV battery. He knows exactly what he's talking about. And there's plenty of evidence already showing up that EV batteries die in as little as 1 year after being rapid charged too often.
The laws of chemistry don't magically change because of "sophistication".
Electrical batteries are a horribly inefficient way to store energy. And they always will be.
@@Cdaragorn "There's nothing more sophisticated about an EV battery. He knows exactly what he's talking about. "
Really? A battery has no moving parts, uses a stable electrolyte, lasts 300,000 to 500,000 miles before degrading to 80%, and it's more sophisticated than, say a car engine? I'm not sure what your point is, you weren't clear.
By all means, show your "plenty of evidence" that EV batteries die in a year. I can absolutely prove otherwise. UA-cam will delete any comment with an external link, so I can supply you with deconstructed links if you need.
Oh and please explain why batteries are "horribly inefficient" at storing...ELECTRICITY. I'm not sure I know of any other means of storing...ELECTRICITY. Do you have a supply of dilithium crystals for the USS Enterprise or something?
Don't forget in the summer when the kids are off school the chargers had queues over 7 hours long. Nice place for your summer holidays - the car park of a motorway service station.
Not Tesla!
@@justsomeguy934 Yes it was tesla too. More cars than chargers no matter the brand of car.
They’re dumb for getting an EV without having a place to daily charge then. If they’re going to make such a reckless decision then they should suffer the consequences. Fast charging can ruin your battery too if they rely on public charging
@@thehairygolfer Charging queues for Teslas are very rare; after 9 years, I've never waited to charge. Tesla is keeping up with its demand on building chargers.
@@JacksonWalter735 Whoa, Nelly. People aren't "dumb" for buying an EV without daily charging. Almost ALL EV charging is done at home/residential, but it's not impossible as an apartment dweller. You go to a weekly fill-up just like you do at a gas station, with a longer refill time.
I drive around 30Km per week and wonder how forcing me to scrap my perfectly good ice to drive an ev can save the planet. Insane!
My wife is the same, and I'm not too far behind her.
EVS are destroying the planet due to toxic metals mining. EVS must be banned.
Most people drive more than 18 miles per week. If you are only driving 18 miles per week then you shouldn't scrap your current vehicle. I'm retired and drive infrequently and I still put 50 miles a week on my car ( about 7 miles per day average).
Who is forcing you 😂
Nobody is forcing you to scrap your ICE. They are just being phased out which will take like 100 years. You will be long gone by then...
Apparently GM has shut down their EV production (or stalling it) because demand is falling off.... you know, because consumer enthusiasm for fully electric vehicles as a whole isn't there!
GM's Zero plant is still running here in Detroit, I will have to ask my buddy how many hours they are actually up and running. When they made the Volt in the same plant, they only operated a few hours a day, four days a week, sometimes only two days a week, and that was it. I would imagine it is back to those same hours. And there has been at least two battery related fires there in the past couple of weeks. One was reported, the other was not. I am sure there have been a few, and we will never hear about them.
Then why is Tesla expanding their factories? And building new ones?
@@adairmartin Why is Dunkin Donuts selling coffee? The man said "GM" You do understand they are 2 different companies? See, a squirrel.. 🐀
@@rrnonya5472 Just because GM is seeing a lack of demand for THEIR EVs does not equate to a lack of demand for ALL EVs.
EV charging is not that simple. A 250 kW charger is not always twice as fast as a 125 kW charger. The maximum charging speed is higher, but your vehicle cannot charge at the maximum speed when it's almost empty, almost full, or when the temperature is not right. At a gas station, you can have 5 liters left and fill up to 40 liters in five minutes, so from 12.5% to 100% in five minutes. In an EV you want to try to stay between 20 and 80%. And with a powerful charger you might be able to do that in half an hour. But you cannot compare it with a gas station. If you push your battery too far, it will take you a lot longer to charge your EV. So, drivers not only have anxiety to drive to 0%, but if they have to charge at a fast charger, driving down to below 20% is already going to cost them a lot of extra time.
Hi flow diesel takes me around 2 minutes for 70 litres. Around 700km range.
Not exactly… on road trips, I try to arrive at the Supercharger with a little less than 10% to get that 250kW speed as much as possible. The Nav knows it’s going to the Supercharger, so it preconditions the battery so that it can take the charge at the max speed. It is true that charging slows as the battery fills up, so I typically don’t charge over 70% because it actually faster overall to leave at that point, and drive to the next supercharger and arrive at a 10% state of charge.
A local business owner here in PA bought all into the EV BS, bought an f150 ev. He was not very happy about the range and put in a twin charging station at both his grocery store and his restaurant. He was excited to do so due to all the subsidies that were offered by the state. He was told by a representative that more than 50% of the cost would be refunded. It took 6 months for the electric company to get the equipment they needed for the two 800A services required for the chargers to be hooked up. During that wait period he was informed by the Rep. From the state that they would not get a refund or tax break because he was just outside the required distance from the closest interstate road and he no longer fit the minimums get the benefit, I don't think he will ever get in the black on the chargers....
He should have done his research 😂 it’s his fault for going all in on EVs and for not making sure he can get his charging stations subsidized. He deserves to suffer the consequences for his reckless actions
@@JacksonWalter735 actually the guy is quite smart and had everything researched and approved, the grant consultant was the one advising him, but in the time it took the power company to upgrade the lines coming to the new buildings and get the equipment needed to install the 800 amp services, transformers and CT cabinets. The goal posts were moved and he got screwed.
Simon, I have tried explaining the huge amount of power required for such a basic roadside EV station to people and they do not "get it". 5 megawatts using your example is going to require a massive cable from the nearby grid,if there is one capable of delivering that value,,,, to the stations network. For example,on most interstates in the US setting this up will require running pylons into the areas to get the HT lines available for starters, and then everything downstream of that distribution network has to be paid for as well.
One thing that I don't often see clearly mentioned, is that there may not be enough electrical infrastructure near by because charging stations co-exists with existing service stations along a highway far from any existing cities or towns. Here in Denmark we have had charging stations along highways, that required 20-30 km of new, very high capacity, power cables to be established. Paid for, in part, by the company installing the charging stations. That's a huge cost up front before you start earning money.
there is a trucking company that wanted to buy 50 electric trucks was told by the city no, the city they are based in is Joliet Illinois, and the city told them the chargers would take more power than the city uses now, and it would destroy the grid, this whole net zero is insane,
I see a lot of talk in this thread about electrical infrastructure required to deliver power from the grid to the consumer - infrastructure that understandably isn't in place already. What if that huge problem could be magically solved overnight? Or in a few years even? That would still leave the problem of inadequate power generation to energize such a massive increase in demand.
Adding a few (or many) power stations into the mix isn't like throwing in a bunch of high-capacity transformers, power lines and charging stations. These things take years to design, build, and commission, and green alternatives are woefully inadequate in terms of meeting such a high growth in demand. It has taken decades for existing green and non-green power generation and infrastructure to grow "organically" to match demand, and in many places around the world even that is inadequate, continually lagging behind curve, even prior to the advent of EV's.
So how will power generation infrastructure cope with the politicians' cloud-cuckoo-land dreams of a greener planet, and EV's for all? It won't.
OH DEAR, who would have thought.
Slightly off topic but have they ever dropped one of these things into a river I assume it could be a shocking experience.
Yes... The Tesla actually started to burn under water.
Saw a cool video where a company was installing batteries in the EV chargers . They could “slow charge”the battery between customers so they don’t have the electric utility infrastructure costs and slow charging is easier on their battery and fast discharging to charge a EV also isn’t detrimental to the Charger battery.
Plus frightening depreciation, loss of range in the cold, more expensive to buy and maintain.
People keep quoting “95% EV charging happens at home” Suppose you’re home is an apartment complex (38% in the United States) or you travel and stay in motels? It will come to a point where there won’t be enough EV charging stations and megawatts of additional power to make this work
It was -10f with -25 wind all day and night. Wont be above freezing for at least another week. Chicago
My Scottish glen has 244 houses. Assuming many have 2 cars (no buses here) let's say there are 400 cars. The energy stored as liquid hydrocarbon in all those fuel tanks can't be supplied by the local power grid, which is already at its limit thanks to new builds and no recent investment. If every home owner plugged in we'd be blowing fuses in Glasgow 60 miles away.
The BBC surveyed charging points and found 25% broken. When they approached the association that represents the owners they replied: "Oh no, it's two percent!" "Two percent?" asked the BBC. "Yes, two percent of the time for which they're actually needed."
The local (U.S. of A.) Nissan dealer had 3 power stations installed that could charge 6 cars at one time. This was when my wife purchased her Nissan NV200 van in 2019.
A few days ago I picked up my wife at the Nissan dealer after she dropped her gas powered van off for service. There was only one charging station left and a sign on it that read, Out of Order!
The only solution is a ludicrous generator in the boot, they're cheap to buy and run, and no ques... brilliant!!!
So good to hear tge realities of electric vehicles...
I live an hour north in Wisconsin. Milwaukee was even colder.
Imagin you are driving on a busy interstate freeway, 0 degrees F, 4 people in the EV, lots of hills, and you pull into a charging station only to find that there are 10 other Ev's in line ahead of you. What fun. Just wait for the road taxes that will surely come.
The power required to charge your ev to allow you to go 150 miles can power 30 homes but it's ok, you're saving the environment.
Btw, when your EV needs to travel on rougher terrain, it will need to use more power, hence your total range decreases... And if it's in unusual climates, then its impacted DRAMATICALLY.
So while your truckers are stuck charging, Chinese freights comes using emissions and on pennies.
And not mentioning the infrastructure that would also have to be put in to accommodate the big semis and larger vehicles and the cost to try and make that feasible would be a huge fail and way too much burden on our electrical grids in cities and towns.l.
So I bought a 2015 LEAF SV used end of 2017, 3 yrs old with about 20k ,miles. I have had it now 6 yrs, has 45,000 miles, 9 yrs old. New a 24kWh LEAF had a range of about 100-110 miles with 24kWh battery. It is now down to 80 miles tops (winter 65). This is FINE for local errands and short trip to nearby towns. I ONLY charge it at home or at nearby public park. BOTH are slower level 2. If I am at park I might get an hour worth or 20 miles of added range. Tiny 24Kw battery (now more like 20kWh capacity after 9 years) this is fine. IT WORKS FOR ME...
But my other car is a VW TDI Diesel JSW that gets 50mpg and 700mi range.... I could NEVER have an EV as my only car. Having TWO cars is a luxury. I have to pay yearly registration and insurance. Plus the state charges an extra $100 TAX (I presume for loss of fuel tax revenue). That is BS. If it was an econ gas car I would pay $30 in gas tax. Plus I charge at home and pay for electricity which has fees and taxes. I do like having best of both worlds in two cars vs a hybrid. I plan on keeping both cars 10 years. I take care of them, each only driven 3000 miles each... The goal of another 10 years is reasonable. I have kept man y cars that were 20 years old or more with +200,000 miles.
I calculated I can drive my Diesel cross country for less than $0.08 a mile in fuel cost at current fuel diesel prices. Of course long cross country in an 80 mi range LEAF is out of the question, if I was going cross country in a Tesla and fast charging was I'll assume $0.30 kW, it would be $0.10/mile. If not a Tesla and using a commercial rging station, more expensive charging station (as much as $0.70/kw) it would be over double or $0.20 a mile. This is more than my diesel, and I can find a charging station (gas station) or 5 gas stations at the end of every freeway off ramp.... No waiting, full charge, I mean tank, in 5 min, from time I get out to time I get back in car...
I have an EV and I made it work for me, but as I said the cost of owning two cars, even though it does save me money on fuel or about $0.035 a mile charging at home, it does not account for the cost of purchase, yearly fees, registration and insurance to have two cars. One EV would not work. A Hyrbid yes, but I LOVE my diesel for the torque and utility. Hybrids are boring and even more complex with the best and worst of both worlds of ICE and Battery only car.
It is a luxury having two cars for one driver. At least I am not putting miles on my diesel.... which I reserve for several road trips a year, about 3000 miles, or local driving more than 60 mile round trip. Thee VW It is ideal since it is a "SportWagen" and has a huge 69 cu-ft cargo area and enough room to lay on the flat floor of cargo area with back seats folded down. It is great for camping.
I like my LEAF but in 10 yrs the range will be to point the utility will be low due to limited range.... The cost today to replace the battery with another small 24kWh one is $9000. If I upgraded to 40kWh it would be $14,000...... BTW this is for some used or rebuilt aftermarket pack.... Nissan will never upgrade a 24kWh pack in older LEAF's to later 40kWh. It can be done technically, but they will not do it. If you could do it and paid out of pocket Nissan price it would be astronomical. This is why people source packs from used cars or do some aftermarket rebuild. Still not cheap but better than dealer. Nissan I think will stop replacing batteries at some point.
I paid $12K for my LEAF SV (all the goodies) 6 years ago... During the pandemic the price went up over what I paid for it. However in the last year it has been falling. A year ago TRADE IN was $10,500 was value. Today $5,500.... WOW... However Private party is $9,270 and retail dealer $12,000. Don't care I am not going to sell it. I am going to drive it as long as I can. It is a great grocery getter. The EV's do have advantage of low maintenance. with no oil changes, filters. Brakes should last longer with Re-gen braking. The exception is drive battery which is a car killer. if needing to be replaced. So far I do not regret buying the LEAF.... I bought a used LEVEL 2 charger, 4.6kWh and installed it my self. works fine. My LEAF can take 6.6kWh level 2. It has a CHADaMO 46kWh direct DC charging port. The dealer has one. I avoid it because I don't need it and I think in the long run will lower battery capacity faster. The big issue with LEAF's is not active liquid cooling of the battery pack, it is convective, air cooled. That is fine in temperate places. Hot places, super charging can't be good for it. I have lost 2.2% a year. I don't know if that decline will be linear or if the rate of decay will increase as time goes on. I am planning on another 9 years of useful life. As long as I have 50 miles range, for 40 miles of driving with 10 mi reserve it will still work for me.
SO JUST YESTERDAY IN ALBERTA CANADA IT HIT -45c ,THEY PUT A MESSAGE ON TV TO NOT PLUG IN YOUR VEHICLES DUE TO A POWER GRID FAILURE
Never see politicians driving them
Battery lifetime, and lack of energy are also main concerns, along with some others...
2 years ago in the US our gov spent like 100 billion for EV charging stations. Not a single one has been built yet. Everyone just uses tesla charging.
You didn't mention Ampol. They don't seem to be deterred from investing in future highway charging sites after opening Pheasants Nest in October, with 9 chargers on each side of the Hume Highway.
My brother bought an EV for his business because of massive tax credits and incentives from the government. The government also built a charging station close to his house that offered extremely low cost charging, think in the range of 1 to 2 cents per kilowatt hour but they charged by the time connected not the power actually delivered. He uses his EV to run his home's AC in the summer. I mean he also drives an almost free vehicle for work when he doesn't need his work truck and it's storage/hauling. I'd drive a free EV if the government gave me one, but unlike my brother I work to make someone else money and can't take advantage of my government's market distortion. Although in fairness I don't work nearly as hard and don't have to travel for my job.
Another issue is that a charger can only serve one or two customers per hour. That provides only a small amount of revenue for a high cost asset.
A petrol pump can serve 10 to 20 customers per hour. That is 10x the sales per asset as well as 10x the foot traffic buying snacks etc.
Trying to make a charg8ng station profitable is a major challenge.
You would have to have Nuclear power plants every hundred miles to supply the power needed to charge these abominations. You have a great channel.
I charge at a supercharger less then once a month. Traveling is the only time you need one. I charge at home 99% of the time.
Battery storage is currently over $200k per MWh. For a busy station on a motorway you'd need hundreds of MWh to handle peak demand, especially if we transition to electric trucking. If the aim is CO2 reduction, there are far more effective ways to invest the $$$bbillions that would be required.
WOW, I have seen some incredible mis and disinformation on this channel but this one takes the cake (so far). Almost everything you said was opinion, not fact.
OK. So list all of the mis/disinformation.
So, please supply the facts
sure, no problem. I am just going to cook the fam dinner on my electric stove and oven (if thats ok with you) but once I am done I will give you a comprehensive list @@desertstar223
you asked for it - MGuy's comments mostly in " " I hope you are able to follow
Clash between fantasy and physics - what does this even mean? EVs and EV charging are not fantasy, they exist and exist using the laws of physics (which unlike this channel are based on fact)
According to MGuy, EV drivers have “range anxeity” as an EV owner that is not something I have ever experienced so assuming he has spoken to and verified with others - probably not at a guess!
“Your home charger is only about 7kw so would take around 15 hours to charge your car” well, my home charger is 11kw and it takes me around 5 hours, however, even if it took 15 hours (and that’s assuming you are starting from zero) you can still have a completely full “tank” in the morning if you start charging at 6pm.
“Whereas a Tesla Supercharger at 250kw, could, assuming it was able to deliver the full power rating that is (I have no idea why he believes it wouldn’t usually deliver the full power rating - another opinion and not based on any fact) would charge the same car in about 30 minutes (again assuming from ZERO to full! - I charged at a Supercharger from 24% to 80% in 17 minutes the other day!)
“But 250kw is a colossal amount of power, about 35 average homes (whilst he provides no time use comparison, I can only assume he means daily consumption (you will find he very conveniently ignores facts that allow actual comparison) but absolute kudos to anybody operating their home at 7.14kw a day). Further, the 250kw is the rate of charge, your car will only use what it needs - no EVs have a 250kw capacity, most are around 70.
“So it’s little wonder that the EV charging industry is struggling to make a profit” maybe have a look at Tesla’s financial reports and see the facts for yourself, as far as investors deserting, well as usual he has provided no fact or basis for this statement and I can’t find any data to support his comment. If you can please share.
I am not going to transcript his hyperbole about the power requirements to run a supercharger but his comment about such a connection being “extremely expensive which makes it extremely difficult for charger to be profitable” Just not true. He goes on to quote some article (that I kid you not he is using to support his case) that says “charging providers don’t expect to turn profitable for about a year” That is a timeframe that many startups would be thrilled with - profitable in a year!!!
The rest of it is just the usual, 100% opinion and zero fact comments like “when you have to wait an hour or more to charge” “the economics of public charging is a complete disaster (despite it being one of the biggest growth industries). “How does this work in rural and remote locations” - well is does, they have electricity there these days! @@desertstar223
@@simonchallenor1006 OK. So you've done your best to disprove some of the 'myths' surrounding EVs. However, may I ask my own questions that I am sure your brilliant mind will have an answer for.
1) At what temperature does an EV battery fire burn?
2) How much water is meeded to extinguish an average EV battery fire?
3) How mamy pollutants are released in the atmosphere during an EV battery fire?
4) Why does an EV battery re-ignites after it has been extinguished?
5) Where does the electricity come from that feeds EV chargers?
6) How sustainable is lithium mining?
7) At what cost to the environment is lithium being mined?
8) Is it true that some of the cobalt mines in Africa use child labour?
9) Why is the insurance cost of EVs so high?
10) Why are EV sales slowing down in the USA?
11) Why are there so many reports of charging an EV is now more expensive than filling an ICE car with petrol?
12) Why is it that minor road damage to the under side of an EV battery necessitates the replacement of the whole battery?
13) What industry is the biggest contributor to the emission of green house gases into the atmosphere?
14) Will EVs save the planet?
15) Why does governments want to force EVs onto the public, instead of letting the market decide?
Thats it for the day. Eagerly awaiting your most knowledgeable replies.
ICE cars can charge at a rate of about 2 to 3 miles of range per second. About 3 minutes for a full range charge.
California has a blackout problem in warm weather. Upgrading their power grid for EVs may unintentionally fix this problem.
Here in Alberta Canada, electric cars just die in winter because they just fail in -40*F/C & lower, in rural Canada EV just doesn’t work
Yeah! Some good points here; EV sales here in the US are falling; looks as though prices of charging, auto insurance, and repair costs after warranty expiration far exceed costs of gas powered cars PLUS dealers do not want to sell EV's since their revenue mainly comes from service dept ( 65% of total revenue- sales is 35% of total revenue) , so sales of gasoline cars will be actually MORE profitable since more of them will be in the service/repair dept., and demand for EV's will be low.😀
Another thing, when you get to the charging station, thieves have stolen the cable for scrap.
And Porsche are discontinuing the ice macan in favor for the new ev version in Australia absolutely bizzare behavior which is bound to backfire in a few years
You are driving west and charge your battery at the motel in Winslow Arizona, half way across the desert you battery dies due to the load on the air conditioner, radio, etc., the car stops in the middle of the mojave desert a hundred miles from Barstow, you call AAA and they are too busy charging the thousands of cars with dead batterys in the middle of the Mojave Desert. Let's say you make it over the San Gabriel Mountains at 6:00pm and look down on the inland empire and it has gone totally dark due to millions of electric cars plugging in their batterys after they come home from work, the freeways are all parking lots with dead cars. the grid finally recovers at midnight and the people plug in their cars in the morning after making coffee and cooking breakfast, 8 hours later your car is fully charged, then you make on the freeway which is a parking lot and never make it to work. California is a snapshot of liberal democrat America will become. The only people left with jobs will be illegals picking lettuce for 20 dollars/hour.
The need for entertainment at charging points in the middle if nowhere is more important than most people care to realize or admit. If you want to force someone to be somewhere for long periods of time, you have to give them a productive outlet to focus on. If you don't give them something to entertain themselves, people will find something. The problem is that those people will "find" things like dumping their trash everywhere and/or vandalizing things. The VAST majority of vandalization of the public space is the result of someone bored and deciding to write/carve/break something.
This problem is quite easy to partially solve. I’m surprised no one has thought of it. Just buy 2 cars and a trailer. You just doubled your range.
It‘s ridiculous that greenies won’t let you drive a hybrid anymore. With a hybrid, if you‘re at home, you can charge your car. If you’re on the road, you fill up with gas. None of the “range anxiety” we have with EV‘s, and, yeah, I know the car industry is “working on it”.
Adding a pub near each charging station might help pass the time, but most drivers would be incapacitated by the time the charge was complete.
Also, every ev stall ive seen has no protection from the elements.
Check out frigid Chicago, where Tesla's charging stations do not work.
Tesla offered no reply to their drivers' requests for assistance.
-30 years ago- "In the future cars will weigh more, have less range, and occasionally burst into an uncontrollable, raging, chemical fire. "
😑😑
Gas stations are some of the most dangerous places to be and you’re there for five minutes filling up your gas tank. Imagine how vulnerable you’re going to be at EV station filling up for 30 minutes to an hour crime is gonna be rampant there.
I’ve heard how inexpensive it is to change a EV. However if the profit margin is so low for these charging stations that they don’t want to build more, owners are not paying market prices. Expect prices to skyrocket in the future near to fuel prices.
LOL. You gotta apply for the "Luddite of the year"-award. I'm pretty sure you'll have a good chance of winning!
Ummmm yeah
My home charger is 7 Kw.
It takes about 8 hours to fully charge the LR Nissan Leaf overnight.
Way short of 15 hours?
In the US the proposed federal program will transfer money to the states to build charging stations along the interstate highways, with a goal of a charging station site every 50 miles.
The states have to have them operating for 5 years with an average availability rate of 97.5%, which is a reaction to the high charger-outage issue.
With this program active, they will be built. By someone. Where there's a central-planning money shovel, such investments get done.
Now, whether it's malinvestment, overpaying for capital assets, inflating cost of assets, and financially sustainable without the money shovel...well, check back in year 6 and 7.
And if things look negative and future folks are wondering why it all didn't work out as intended, well they could watch this vid.
We've got a chain of gas stations with 110 pumps. Each! No electric pumps at all. And no plans to do so.
Given most charging occurs slowly at home, the hotel or the shops we don’t need many very high speed chargers. Maybe one per 1000 EVs. Assuming maybe 20% of charging occurs at one of these.
If we had a $250 tax on each new EV sold that would be $250,000 for each high speed charger. Or $2,500,000 for a site with ten chargers.
This sort of money is vastly more than needed. And pocket change to somebody buying a new car.
Obviously there are different ways to skin a cat. But funding all of this is a very solvable problem.
The cost of those charging stations is nothing compared to the cost of the infrastructure that is needed to supply the power at the necessary current.
Most EV owners have charging at home so they tend only to use these charging stations on long runs. Tesla Power Wall cost $15,000 to install. Tesla will open up the charging at their stations in 2024 but at higher cost. Where do you put trailer when charging?
Good work sir! Please have you touched on China's battery swapping infrastructure? Looking forward to it!
😂😂😂 "Dead in the water." Ever drop a EV into the water❓️ ⚠️ Don't stand close❗️ 😮🤦
Nbody told me that before I drove through flood water in my EV. yesterday. But glass what? I’m still here and so is the car.
Just an idea. Many Canadians drive to work and park for the day. Perfect for a few hours of charge. Right. 😉
The circular argument that can't be resolved: Not enough drivers to make the chargers profitable, but not enough chargers to serve the drivers!! So, more chargers would solve the availability complaint but be less profitable, but fewer chargers would be more profitable but not serve the needs of the drivers!!
Thing about the government can care less about how your going to be able to charge them.
I'm curious what the economic opportunity cost is of having that many people stand around waiting to charge their car.
Many of these people could do remote work from their phones but lots won't have that option.
Watch Geoff buys cars and the Macmaster. They have done challenges, like Lands End to John O’ Groats, diesel vs EV and the EV loses every time, in both cost and journey time taken.
MacMaster? If you believe his stuff is how electric car users is in any way typical of reality I have a bridge I’d like to sell you. He drove from Leeds to London. 194 miles which even his ridiculous car could do on one charge with energy left. But he decided not to charge to 100 percent overnight at home like any serious EV owner would do. Instead he charged to 80 percent at the beginning of his journey. Why 80 percent? Because that meant he would have to charge again before he reached his destination. So a straight motorway run with no stops became a two stop journey for no reason except to make EVs look bad.
And the Welsh race Weald even worse.
ua-cam.com/video/pADuPfuOt6s/v-deo.htmlsi=wKdLb-2PJCni0o1X
If we mandated all cars be no bigger/heavier than the classic old Mini Cooper. Then used all our collective IQ’s to refine the engines to maximise MPG and filter exhausts, we’d have done a lot more for the environment than making EV’s…
The bigger question is where is all this electricy coming from? Our grid is struggling now and the notion of charging your green EV with electricity that comes from burning coal or gas is a nonsense. We absolutely need to make the grid fit for purpose before we can have mass adoption of EVs. Also, what is going to be the dollar cost if an ebus spontaneously combusts in an ebus garage?
What energy source will the power from these stations come from? Can I continue to call these cars "coal-powered"?
If the Tesla fast charger uses so much more power, is it commensurately more expensive than a standard charger, in the way of E10 and 98 RON petrol?
LOL. In short, unless there are some major changes the only people that will migrate to EVs in the long term are those who can safely and cheaply charge at home for most of their power use.
Anybody else, especially those without a garage... will always pay far more for charging their EVs than to fuel an ICE car. So, they will stick to gasoline.
Many of us would love to switch to EVs and save the planet, but unless the problems of cost and lack of personal data privacy protection laws, people aren't going to migrate to EVs en masse.
As you call it petrol, and I call it gasoline, only a small fraction of the required energy producing components are loaded in the vehicle. Burn ratio for neither lean nor rich burn is about 15 to one. So the ingested air is pumped into the engine as you drive. Newer sensored and computer driven engines can burn at 22 to one so even less fuel is required and more air is required. Just think if you had an oxygen tank on board an ICE driven vehicle. That is a problem no pie in the sky battery is ever going overcome. I drive and EV a lot. It weighs 57 pounds, has a one Kwh battery, and a 3Kw motor. I purposely limit its top speed to 30 mph. Why? Because it is a bicycle an electric bicycle. Very convenient for a relaxing ride or a short trip to town or a store. It even pulls my fishing cart or my Kayak when needed. I have been working on electric vehicles of all sorts since 1964.
Hi there!!! this ramble might be a bit off topic but may be of interest to you anyways... I admire people with electric cars but won't be one myself as I can't afford to be one... I'm all for saving the planet & trying to preserve as much of it as possible for my kids and driving an electric ute simply is unrealistic! Some technologies that I've heard of may raise your curiosity levels though ... You might want to research these two.... A company in the States was developing a hexagonal tile suitable for installing to freeways which would allow traffic including heavy trucks to drive over & not damage... These tiles I think were PV ( Photovoltaic ) So perhaps not the answer to EV's BUT this one might be!!!!! A company with Global status was developing wireless technology with the view to trying to transmit power from solar panels in space down to earth wirelessly obviously quite a feat if they managed to pull it off but with that in mind Would it be possible to wirelessly charge EV's & eliminate range anxiety, queues at charging stations & charging in general if the road you're driving on is continuously charging you're car? Maybe making those PV tiles to include induction chargers as well???
Nothing here that trillions in government subsidies can’t fix. And why not, since we know there is a limitless amount of tax dollars available.
Nobody every spruiks the idea of using and consuming less as a way of reducing the loss of resources.
The issue regarding shortage of electricity in both Australia, and the UK where I live can be solved quite easily imho. Just go Nuclear! It is said by some that EVs are very safe and efficient. Fine. The safety regulations behind nuclear power station operation are MAGNITUDES higher than that of EVs. All the nuclear reactors running around the world's oceans and next to no accidents... just saying
People can choose to have some inconvenience to reduce emissions.
New Zealand is about to implement Road User Charges ($0.76 per km).
This makes EV,'s even less attractive.
what powers the stations is mainly natural gas.
Question? If I run out of gas miles away form a gas station I can walk get a gas can fill it and walk back to my car or have someone give me a ride back put the gas in and make it to the station. If I have an EV I will need a tow, period, then have to wait to charge it. Makes perfect sense. Hahahaaaa EV’s are for speed only.
Don't forget that most places with multiple charging stations are going off 1 line to the grid. That means if a guy next to you plugs in you are now getting less charge overall. A Tesla supercharger won't mean shlt if it can't pull enough juice from the grid.
It’s a true challenge for EV uptake and will be for a long time to come. The existing expensive charging infrastructure will soon be completely overwhelmed but will still be losing money. Building more to support more EVs and even more money will be lost. Only EV charging at home as part of a smart home energy management system currently makes sense. Biggest upside of EVs is that they are more pleasant to drive for normal city/regional highway travel.
The solution for remote charging stations is ....... diesel power generators. 🤣
You and I both know you're right that diesel generators are in fact used at many charger sites.
yep 400kW - (Mechanical) per Charge stand...
Well, it appears that NSW currently generates around 13,500 MW (13,500,000 kW)... How many Fast Charging EVs simultaneously can ALL THIS CAPACITY - - presuming a good bit of it is currently used for day to day power needs allowing 300kW per Fast Charger (electrical power, allowing for losses) Lets call that 45k EVs on Fast Charge..
Wonder if ?? - some simple maths, add in some residential and industrial loads... If we have 3M AirCon units chugging away at 3kW (lighting is insignificant, Electric Hot Water is already switchable according to demand)- there is still ~15k Fast Charge electrons in reserve POSSIBLE on the grid at full capacity.
- We can probably provide the power (noting that an EV on "residential power" usually charges at around 3-5kW - not the 200-250kW on a futuristic fast charger) - BUT we definitely need more 500kV interconnects ( ~1000 hectares =2471Acres, of NEW land- easement clearing per 100km) to get the power up the coast and across the centre of this wide brown land.. Land ownership and people disliking HV lines in their back yard, makes trucking diesel across country (or pumping via pipeline) an easier pill to swallow - Let's just provide Elevation assistance as needed to Tuvalu etc.. (sending over shiploads of fresh water - or higher capacity Desalination plants - to avoid emptying their freshwater lens would have helped reduce subsidence - decades ago......
Note also: residential daytime Air-conditioning, energy usage can easily be supplied by solar - obviously this is real infrastructure at landowners expense (Make the most out of one's investment by only exporting what offsets grid connection fees and evening imports
Why not with 120 fuel bowsers and 98 EV chargers Buc-ees in Tennessee in the US does it and the Polestar that did a publicity run from Sydney to Perth had a diesel generator with it to recharge. Fun fact even with the support crew and mechanics the Polestar shit itself part way and had to be flatbedded into Perth. 😂🤣😂 John Cadogan did a story on it so I’m guessing the story is credible.
Or Solarpanels & windturbines (?),🤡🤡
@@mikafiltenborg7572or unicorn farts?
For $1.5m you can either: put in a petrol station with 12 pumps has a peak ability to service 600 cars an hour with $30,000/hr revenue, or.... a 6 EV super charging stations that will charge 8 cars per hour and bring you in $1200 per hour revenue, if you are lucky. The only reason charging stations exist at all is because the government gives them free land. The chargers would not even raise the rent for the space they occupy.
Too bad you calculations fall apart because 95% of charging is done at home or at the destination. So we need only 5% of the charging stations compared to fuel stations.
Complete rubbish! The fuel tanker will run empty in no time. You don't have that concern with an EV.
It's funny but in Australia, the number of public EV charging stations has increased from 464 charging locations, to 800. That's around a 70% increase in the last 12 months. Now I did work in a service station once.
Now 12 EV charging points will take up about 300 sqm, 24 about 600 sqm. No operator required. Lease costs for the site - maybe $1000 to $2000 per month or $1.39 to $2.78 per hour.
For your 12 pumps, you would need around 2000 sqm land and that will cost you around $15,000 per month in lease costs, about $1.25 million to purchase the lease, wages for at least 4 people (1 x 3 8hr shifts plus 1 for backup/overlap/manager) or about $28,000 a month. These figures are real figures. The revenue from this service station (actual service station, regional city) is $6.5 million per year including non-fuel income. That's around $700 per hour in real income and a profit if the servo is well run/lucky. BTH, if you have to borrow 50% of the purchase price of a fuel station, you are never going to make a profit.
Revenue is high for petrol and diesel but profit is low.
Maybe so, I don't live in Australia so I can't comment on costs....but you clearly have no experience of EV ownership. Most EVs are charged at home overnight when rates are cheap so there isn't so much need for rapid charging. When I am on a long trip I never take an hour to charge, 20 to 30 minutes max and my car is now old tech with a max charging speed of 75 kW, newer EV's can charge at 150 kW plus so with one of those it will be a 10 to 15 minute stop to grab a coffee, use the bathroom, add 200 km and I'm on my way. So your idea that 6 chargers could only deliver 8 charges per hour is way off. EV drivers don't hang around on a rapid once the car is up to 80% as its the law of diminishing returns on charging speed and 350 km of range is enough to finish off most journeys if you've already done 300km after charging from home
A relative is an HGV trunking driver and regularly uses motorway service areas. He regularly sees queues of cars at EV charging points.
However these are rarely more than five or six cars long. If you have so little charge left and cannot reach another charging point and you are fifth in the queue at a bay charging point you could be wating for one or two hours for your turn and than another hour or so to charge up to 80%. Most of his time you have to be in your car to make sure you do not miss your turn. Try managing your journey times and appointments around this.
If you're fourth or fifth in a queue of cars that each take an hour to charge then you might as well buy a camper van! - electric of course......
Tell him to take some video with his phone next time!
@@xraylife The EVangelists would still deny saying he is making it up.
I live in Vancouver Canada arguably one of the safest cities in the world with the most polite people. I go for walks/bike rides all the time right by this gas station down the street from me that has EV chargers installed last year. I have seen several shouting matches and a few fights there and the manager says he calls the cops all the time to break up fights. If people in my country are getting so upset at these chargers I can only imagine what it is like in the USA for example.
@@kellyeye7224- would you sleep soundly knowing that underneath you is 7000 cells any one of which could potentially go into thermal runaway setting off a chain reaction?! I doubt that's a recipe for a restful night.
Would you travel on the channel tunnel or a car ferry knowing that there is a potential fire bomb EV onboard that could not be extinguished by the the existing fire suppression system?
They are banned on many ferries as their insurance won't cover them if they're allowed on.
Aaaahhh... That's a solid no ..
It was on the itv news about a month ago how pathetic it all is. They said EV's in the uk outnumber chargers by over 30 to 1 and it's getting worse not better.
It wouldn't be so bad if they wasn't so laughably slow to charge up, who wants to sit in a scummy carpark waiting for a poxy car to charge up unless you are mental.
The pro ev motoring journalist on the news said they have got reports of EV lemmings waiting up to 6 hours at public chargers.
For anything other than charging from home for short journeys EV's are way too slow to charge up, then even worse after 80%. The battery technology on them is wank.
Real world capacity is 50 to 60% and told to use between 30% to 80% to avoid batter degradation.
This means 50% Of 50%=25%😮😮😮
@@esecallum You can use the battery from 0-100%. But you should charge shortly after discharging and you should continue driving after a full charge to avoid charging states below 20% and above 80% for a longer time.
@@gerbre1 why would I want to do that and waste my time? Why would I buy an EV. What is the point
@@esecallum You don't waste any time if you can charge at home, at work, at the supermarket or any other location where you have something to do in the meantime.
You drive an EV if comfort and sportiness matters to you. An EV is quiet, no vibrations, no stinking, no engine stalling, 1 gear automatic and a fantastic acceleration from the beginning.
An EV is cheap to operate with low maintenance costs and cheap electricity prices. I can charge my EV for 0,25 €/kWh or 3,75€ for 100 km with 15 kWh/100km consumption. Diesel costs 1,62€/Litre in Germany where I live. With 5 Litres/100 km that makes 8,10€/100 km which is more than double compared to the 3,75€ for the EV. If you can charge at home and the EV takes 15 kWh/100 km or 24 kWh/100 miles how much would it cost for you and how much would you save compared to a fossil car?
If you can charge at home and have solar panels on the roof, you can even charge for free or for the costs of the solar panels devided by the kWhs produced over the live time to be precise.
And of course no CO2 or toxic gases are directly emitted.
You don't drive an EV if you often drive long distances without the possibility to fast charge on the route or if you often have to pull a heavy weight trailer which exceeds the allowed tow capacity of the EV.
@@gerbre1 yeah i am gonna spend 21000 on crappy solar panels.news flash.Frigid cold, broken chargers leave Chicago area 350 Tesla owners frustrated and stranded.. haaa haaaa . have you been invited to DAVOS for your indoctrination session? or to sample Schwabs dongle?
Love how this government can make new problems for itself and us!
Hegelian dialectic
They keep encouraging me to invest into a future abroad where they dont have thse ridiculous bans and requirements
one reason imho it has been hijacked ( our democracy has been)politicians arent in charge anymore ( maybe they we never be) GLOBILISTS are. YES, Albanese is one . Hence piss 450 mill up a wall for a referendum NOBODY wanted
Remember, the goal is to control your life: what you do, where you go, what you eat, etc
It’s what Government does!!
Saw a vid recently where a uk ytuber did a range test towing a caravan. The van halved his range which was kind of expected, but the other interesting point was that to charge you would need to unhitch the van. Idiocy.
Why is it required to unhitch a trailer to charge?
@@joshcheck7532 Because the charging bay is the length of a car and not the length of an HGV. The caravan would block the road. The EV chargers are usually where the handicapped bays are right next to the door of the service station building.
@@joshcheck7532 Trailer is normally blocking traffic.
@@joshcheck7532 The charging point on the EV was located at the rear & the leads won't reach. OR, the caravan would block the path of other EV users who want to get past it.
@@subwayfacemelt4325 Just try to imagine taking your caravan into any normal car park if you're having problems with the reality of EV charging. Now try it on a bank holiday weekend with EV cars on 50% of the normal range. Please send a Google Maps reference of any Australian charger set up for trailer tow vehicle charging. Plenty of petrol stations can handle it. Something I never even had to plan when towing my boat which I could fill at the same time.
Governments around the World are thinking, if EVs don't work, then people can't have cars or travel, end of problem.
Alternatively we could simply abolish Government itself…..as it’s the main problem on Planet Earth….
Yep, that the plan.
110%, eco communism
You have decoded their true agenda.
You are being too generous. It's not "if" EVs don't work, they know full well they are not a replacement for ICE.
Simon, You would be aware of the " Twin Servo's " an hour out of Sydney on the pacific Highway. One either side which probably have 50 or more pumps each.
Every weekend and holiday plus many peak times, these petrol stations can not only be full but in holiday time, have a long line of cars out onto the slip road.
How on earth are they going to replace facilities like these which at the outset have vehicles there for 10 Min from the time they pull up till the time they leave the pump with chargers that are going to take 30 Min at very least. Obviously some people will want to fully charge and be there closer to an hour.
50 stalls at even 100KW ea is 5 MW..... on each side of the road. Plus you have the use of the restaurants and whatever in the main facility itself. That alone will take enough power to run a heavy industrial area and it won't even come close to being enough. You would want 3 Times the charging stalls to equal the throughput of vehicles to the pumps as a bare minimum to just be as inadequate as the places are now. No possible way you are going to even get onto a stall in 30 Min PLUS charging time.
That 5 MW per site just blew out to 15MW+ Each, so at a bare minimum, 30 MW for both....... and you will still have long cues, absoloutley longer than now.
You are looking at putting in enough power to run a small steel works or over 1.05% of the biggest thermal power station in NSW... which is slated to be closed next year....... In just 2 facilities! and that would be a fraction of the power requirement for the central coast in EV charging let alone Sydney which that power station also serves! Obviously another power station of similar size is going to be needed to just supply power to the EV's on the central coast and Sydney if they even hit 50% of vehicles and that's not even taking into account the massive power trucks would use.
And this is from a grid where they get on the media and tell you to turn your AC up to a higher temp to cut down on power useage on a hot day! just wait for a wet week in winter!!
This EV garbage is NOT going to happen and with the green mania hell bent on destroying reliable power and relying on the very thing the industrial revolution over came over 100 years ago, the weather, this is all beyond a farce!!
Don't even get me started on the stupidity of the " Charge from Home solar" stupidity. Sure, charge from a 5 KW system at home when the car is at work..... and even if it is at home, what is powering the house while the EV is sucking down everything the soar is generating and pulling from the grid at the same time as well.
Anyone that believes in this EV BS is a brainless idiot incapeable of doing their own critical thinking!
Well said ,and so much more can be said ,stupidity in the extreme
@diecastb sure mate dream on ev buyer
Why is it brainless? The simple solution in Australia is to build coal-powered power stations next to the charging station. You petrolheads need to think outside the box. 10 coal power stations in each city would be enough to do it.
Putting that sort of unbelievable energy consumption into perspective, that is more power than what an averaged sized electric arc furnace consumes. The cost of the transformer and high voltage transmission line infrastructure to make just a small area with 50 chargers will be astronomical.
@@diecastb lot of unfounded IF's in what you say but the bottom line is, the electrical demand from EV's will be massive and the Grid is falling behind in supplying regular demand now. There is NOTHING planned to meet that increased demand and don't give me the Big battery BS because that is STORAGE which is NOT the same as generation nor has the reliability of coal or gas power plants which are weather independent.