As hunters we need to fight this whole movement for hunting to become a rich mans sport. Spending 30,000 to 40,000 for a sheep hunt is ridiculous. If you want a guide, fine. But allow DIY and keep prices in check. Eliminate these high dollar auctions for tags. Don't allow public tags (which we all own) to be sold. Even reserving tags for outfitters who can then sell them for high dollar amounts because of high demand is questionable. It is an artificial supply problem because state agencies control how many can be distributed. An outfitter should be able to charge whatever he can for his services, but not for the tag. Tags should be equal opportunity. Outfitters should not be in the business of selling tags, only in the hunting / outfitting business. Getting the tag should be up to the hunter based on draw, not dollars. Keep hunting affordable and public.
Appreciate your comment on this. I find this a super interesting topic. I’ll probably dedicate a video to it. I don’t agree with everything you are saying but a big chunk of it I do.
Touching on the archery wound loss talk - I’ve seen plenty of the same insanity within rifle. I was just hunting in Colorado and one evening heard a hunter above me take SEVENTEEN shots. There will always be people that make poor ethical decisions - but when you factor in the difficulty in drawing a non resident tag, and the expense, you severely compound the problem. It’s hard for a resident hunter to relate, the the scarcity and expense for non resident hunters is immense. And that emotional pressure bends the decision making towards the wrong side. The only answer is to create more abundance of opportunity. We need more habitat, and more access.
I think social media and hunting magazines have distorted real hunting over the last 30 years. Images/video of high fenced privately bred and feed game can make the idea of success completely unattainable for even hunters that work very hard for many years. I don't know what the answer is but the genie is out of the bottle.
When people travel 15-30hrs 1 way to go hunt elk that cost them thousands they will make questionabke shots in the hopes it gets them their elk. It's sad but the pressures of getting a elk cause the majority of bad shots. Elk fever seems to be worse than buck fever.
I was raised as a meat hunter but this man makes a dam good point about areas that are known for putting out trophy bucks. I normally hunt 62 here in CO because it's the unit I live in and know the best but I do agree the units by Gunnison should be managed for larger bucks. I also couldn't agree more with not shaming others for what animal they decide to harvest. If you want to hunt 10 years to get the perfect buck by all means and same goes for the guy that just wants some good meat in the freezer.
I agree 1000000% on the archery portion where Mike discusses taking broadside standing shots only. I've got friends every year that wound elk with a bow and with a rifle and it disgusts me. I know accidents happen from time to time but staying disciplined and only taking the best shot possible is crucial for ethical hunting. I've shot 5 elk with my bow with 7 tags and have never wounded a single elk. All but 1 have been shot within 25 yards broadside and all have been lung shots where the elk go no more than 100 yds and die. Its a pretty simple strategy that takes patience and persistence. If you can't take a lethal shot let it go.
I have killed two bulls and wounded/lost one bull. The two killed were double lung shots, broadside under 30 yards. I took a frontal shot at 25 yards and hit the shoulder on the wounded bull. I was sick physically/mentally for weeks...spent 4 days looking for him. I took that shot because it was day 14 for me and season was about to end....and i was desperate and let my ego tell me i could make that shot. I was wrong and will never, ever do that again! It was the worst hunting experience in my life. Love your podcast and guests bro!
I’m sure that bull lived. I did the same exact thing one year and the next year I killed the same bull the next year. I found my broadhead imbedded in his shoulder blade from the year before.
Putting in the time, ahmen! Muley hunter out of Utah here. My boys and I all hung our tags on +20 inch deer this year. All in the same day and on the same ridge. I do atribute some of it to luck but I was out all week putting in the time.
A huge issue in Eagle is their extremely high population growth. Brush Creek, which was one of the primo mule deer wintering (all private ranches), has been completely turned into Denver looking subdivisions. The elk also get pushed by yippy e bikers during calving season, and we have lost a lot from abandonment. There are just too many humans in their habitat!
This is exactly what I do anymore. My motto is "big buck or save a buck". Elk I hunt for meat, deer for antlers. I'd rather eat my tag than shoot a young smaller buck. I wish more people didn't have the mentality of having to fill the tag in their pocket. The state obviously can't manage the animals so us hunters are going to have to start doing it if we want the quality to come back.
Mike, great discussion on CO mule deer, I learned a lot! Question: I live in San Isabel National Forest in unit 57 and thus apply for a 49, 57, 58 tag. The last few years they have been doing 800 buck tags and 10 doe tags. I feel like this forces a lot of "meat" hunters to put in for a buck tag, when they'd be perfectly happy with a mature doe, and that this is decimating the buck population and preventing us from getting some decent mature bucks. Am I off base here? I do see a few nice bucks here and there, but there's definitely not that many.
Absolutely agree. Mulies here in Colorado are having a rough time. Habitat loss, CWD, extreme hunting pressure. Hunters have less access to quality hunting lands (I used to hunt your area until development overtook my hunting spots outside Poncha - I avoid landowners and ranchers just to enjoy my hunts). I absolutely don't understand why CPW allows shooting forkhorn and below. A 3-point minimum on buck would really give the bucks a break. I am always willing to fill a doe tag for meat. I'm also willing to not fill a tag before killing a juvenile. I think we hunters need to accept less harvest, manage Mulies for the benefit of the herds, not to make everyone who wants tags happy, or create business for outfitters.
Great convo an topics you dont get anywhere else, thanks Cliff! I also don't envy game managers I live in Utah and their responding to public input. When they do surveys they continue to get majority responses that say we want opportunity over quality of big animals. So then they manage to what the people are asking them to manage to so that their families have more than opportunity to have a yearly tradition carry on but at the cost of reducing overall numbers and quality of the game. Utah's at least trying this year to implement some study units in southern Utah where they're going for the first time to try point restrictions to see if that helps keep quality up in historically desirable units. I come from the east coast and whitetail point restrictions have been a thing a long time there and they are proven to work but the density of animals doesn't reduce the number of tags there like the western game species would have as an outcome. No easy answers but the conversation must happen to get to the ones that are at least well thought out and considerate of what outcomes we are trying to produce. When mule deer numbers are in continual decline but states refuse to lower their tag numbers to the public outcry it's the case of you can't have your cake and eat it too so this is part management but also part of the public hunters input that's driving the numbers down instead of facing into the problem and accepting there should be less tags in periods of time when there's less animals. Here's a provocative question Cliff, what would you think about the idea of a state rotating in a no hunting season every x number of years? So maybe every 3 years for deer there's an absolutely no harvest and then maybe every four or five years elk. I know that weather lately has been a big factor with harsh winter kills but the math is hard to calculate in my head what would have happened if we gave the deer two or three years to rebound after the historic winter? Would we be how much better off and then would that sacrifice be worth the price to the hunters?
Definitely enjoyed the message and mostly agree but I think if you are going to bring up lost animals you can't ignore the new hunters or sometimes even seasoned hunters who now all seem to think that they can shoot a elk at 1000 yards because they saw someone on tv.. or the new hunter that gets their rifle boresighted and away they go.. its a ethical choice much more than the weapon used.
I haved matured as a hunter so that I am more proud of the shots not taken than those I do take. I passed 2 shots on elk this year that I could have made likely but not perfect. I have seen wounding loss from both rifle and bow due to shot selection, neither are immune if the hunter is not picky about shots. We need to share with other hunters this perspective. Just look at the rifle shots on video of long shots with followup shots to even hit the animal. 40 yard archery shares the same risk as 400 yard rifle. Similar aiming error, wind and time for animal to move and create a bad wound instead of a clean kill. Those are both wounds that we as hunters are responsible for not just bad luck.
Frank and refreshing conversation on issues and marks of hunting culture now under pressure to change with current practices and "times". Ethics and morals are always to be regarded and considered, and crushing realities of hard recruitment of youth into the field sports all are somehow to be hashed through and even balanced. Criteria of "success" cannot only be narrowly understood in numbers, nor can "experience" be canned and jaded with high fence and game ranch environments. The current hunting world realities are establishing a very fragile continuum that could easily be abused and broken for lack of participation alone. Sadly, I see hard work ahead that has likely poor returns for the efforts so established today. Change is a catalyst and a tempering director for still envisioned hunting futures.
I haven’t finished the video yet so forgive me if they touch on this topic but habitat loss is also a huge issue. I live in Chaffee county and the population and new developments has exploded in the last 5 years. Subdivisions have popped up all over the surrounding mountains and mountain bikes and razors are flooding into every trail. This isn’t hunting pressure but it’s definitely pressure and I’ve seen animal behavior change drastically as a result. The idea of a “small mountain town” is an illusion in Colorado these days.
Archery shot selection is important. 7 bulls arrowed, 7 bulls recovered. Not one went over 120 yards. Multiple fell within site. We can't question the effectiveness of the equipment. lts all on the bowhunter...
I'm just some dumba$$ from Wisconsin, but this is one of the best podcast episodes i have seen. I was hunting Colorado every year in the early 2000s and the amount of big bucks was insane, even in easy to draw units. I have no idea why the DOW is pretty much wiping them out with the amount of tags they give out.
I have taken 20 plus elk with a bow and to date have not lost a single animal. This is in part to my commitment to only take high percentage shots and not shoot just on the hope that I will fill my tag. I also know my equipment well and have shot the same bow for several years. I am confident of what it can do. I don't believe that 80% of hunters are wounding animals yearly, that's crazy! I do know too many are wounded though. I drew a great archery elk tag last year and had 2 different bulls over the 370" mark, broadside, that I did not shoot at because they were in the 100 yard range, on multiple occasions. I also had them at close range but could not get a clean shot. I ended up eating my tag chasing one of the big bulls til the last minute of the last day but I was glad that I didn't take an iffy shot on such a magnificent animal. This is MY take and opinion on what shots should be taken. Yes, I can shoot to 100, but animals have too much time to move at that range and for me that is the reason I won't take the shot. I have had more than a few people say I'm stupid and that they would have taken the 100 yard shots. I'm ok with the memories I have and the animals that I haven't wounded. It's the respect I have for the amazing animals we get to hunt. Also, I already have a 370" bull that I called in and took with my bow at 18 yards. I know many people who have wounded multiple animals by taking 700+ yard rifle shots on animals. I found a nearly 380" bull that had his knee blown off by a misplaced bullet that was shot at 780 yards. He was still alive but barely able to move from the massive pain he was in from his injury. I found someone with a late season tag and he harvested that bull. I found out later who the hunter was that wounded him and the shot distance from a mutual friend. Can rifle hunters make 1000 yard shots, yes. Can a bowhunter make 100 yard shots, yes. Should they? they find out after the shot with either a kill, a wounded animal or a miss. I hope most people would err on the side of not taking the shot if there is less than a 95% chance they can make the shot. Only your conscience can tell you that. Great convo on all these topics, especially deer management, and his advice on guys doing hunts that they really can't afford. I know too many friends that lost marriages and families from the need to chase another animal. That will never be worth it. Good luck and hunt on!
As someone who's home state is California I couldn't agree more than states need to move to a quality of deer management program more than a opportunity program. In CA it has to have forked horns. I think moving to 3 points per side we be much better for herd quality and overall numbers
CPW has unfortunately been forced to largly focus on the money. They went from DOW to CPW and have a much larger expense that needs to be covered by hunter fees. They literally can not cut tags unless they dramatically raise prices. I have been saying that for almost 2 decades, they vastly over estimate the elk herds, so OTC is not on the chopping block. The state will never help fund CPW because the East slope hates hunting in Colorado, too.
Mike your buck behind you is the coolest buck I have ever seen in my life. I remember reading you killed the buck when you had a bad flu and at last shooting light
I like Robby too, and his optimism, but that won’t put big bucks on the mountain. Robby has been the IDFG (Idaho) golden boy for years because he sang their song and they sold as many tags as they could. For years. They FINALLY stopped the youth doe hunts but it was way too late by then. Deer hunting quality bucks is as bad as I’ve ever seen it in the west - that’s about 45 years worth. I think this man is spot on that hunters who want to hunt quality deer must pound the table really hard. I’d wait 5 years of not hunting deer for the chance to hunt a quality area that has big deer. You can buy 2500$ glass and a custom rifle and have the nicest gear but if there are no big bucks within miles of you, you ain’t gonna find one. No matter how hard you hunt. We have the habitat, but predators and the F&G management have decimated the deer. IMHO.
I have lived and hunted Colorado hunting big game all my life. One thing that I never understand on Muley buck hunting is the state allows shooting spike and forkhorn bucks. These are juvenile deer without any experience. Give them a year or two and they double in size and grow some impressive headgear. It hurts me to see some amazing forkhorns with great genetics taken out of the gene pool for meat. I guess there is an argument that spikes need taken out. Still, we protect spike elk with 4 point minimums, and elk aren't nearly having the problems the mule deer herds are having. If the issue is herd management, up the doe harvest. I really don't understand this management approach.
Clearly there has been too much harvest of mature bucks. But Regarding mule deer in Colorado how would you account for the influence of the questionnaire that CPW sends out each year asking about harvest and hunting preference for said unit? Past three years they ask me if I want to hunt for quantity or quality. I’m betting others are answering quantity on that.
Colorado parks and wildlife needs to take a long hard look at our mule deer population, They are giving out tags like candy and ppl will shoot anything that moves our numbers are low and our quality is a bust ! Co has long been known for our great mule deer now we have totally fallen off the band wagon! CWD will never be eradicated it lives in the soil and comes up in the plants! It is really tuff to find a mature buck anymore,
There's got to be a way to manage for opportunity and quality at the same time. I certainly don't want to be one of those guys who isn't willing to hunt and put in the work on a general tag and only wait to draw a tag once every 10 years. Thats stupid. I want to be able to hunt every year, even if its with a slingshot. But we shouldn't be shooting young bucks either. We need to somehow limit harvest to mature older bucks, or even a few does to keep the buck to doe ratio right. The last thing we want is big bucks dying of old age. Those are the bucks that should be harvested. Not sure if a point restriction would work, or require a buck to be aged, and if you shoot something younger than 4-5 years, you can't shoot a buck next year, or something similar. Another way to manage the harvest is through equipment restrictions. I would rather be able to hunt with a bow than not hunt at all. But the last thing I would support is going to all draw hunts so we can't hunt every year. If anything, we need to eliminate draws and manage it through age restrictions, equipment restrictions, etc... Allow people to bow hunt these great units, and eliminate the draws. It would be crazy for a couple of years and then people would spread out.
What's up Utah here MULES my Fav the Buck i got this Year Scored. 208 and I got a 6 point Bull and All i Hunt is public land i have Hunt the same Area for the last 15 years. I get a good buck every year. I just learned how to let the other hunters work for me.🤘🇺🇲🇺🇲🤘
Boy id love to know how many are being lost with 600-700 yard shots with rifles. Seems to be a disturbing trend. Guys throw a dial up scope and there good to go! Shot mistakes happen with rifle and archery. If guys choose to not practice and take poor shots, both are gonna produce wounded animals!
Don’t worry Colorado once the wolves get settled your left leaning state won’t let you hunt them anyways. Ask Washington how that goes make a management plan then keep moving the goal post so they will never be hunted. Why do you think the tribes there are more than happy to send you more!
The reason why political opinions become so evenly split on seemingly fringe issues even across a wide population is actually very well understood from the perspective of game theory, linear algebra, and geometry of high dimensional spaces. It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the limits of human cognition or physiology except insofar as we are reflections of the underlying logic of our world. This isn't really secret or esoteric knowledge. There are thousands of academic papers on the subject from multiple disciplines and modern political campaigns having more to do with data science and network analysis than anything else is well documented in the mainstream media. People are fairly resistant to the idea, partly due to ego and partly due to not understanding the math behind it. I'm not aware of anyone having understood these principles to actually argue against them because they are so conclusive.
Duplan doesn't like archery losses. Cause no one is out hunting after the rifle seasons. If the archery losses were as significant as implicated, the reason for reduced opportunity would be because of losses during the season. Not resident interpretation of impact.
@brianjones3598 possibly. Taking Colorado as an example. Guy finds a dead animal during 1st rifle. "Archery hunters cause so many losses". That's possibly true. Unless there's an arrow hanging out of the elk that proves definitely that it was archery, it might be an early rifle kill, muzzleloader kill, or archery. By 4th season, most animals have moved way down range and the chances of someone finding an unrecovered animal go way down cause they aren't hunting in the same ranges. Are there unrecovered animals in each season? Yes. Is one season worse than another? Probably. Is there proof that archery is terrible and causing significant animal losses that the agencies aren't accounting for? No. All hunting seasons have some amount of losses. Mainly due to people trying to perform beyond their abilities. It is a part of hunting. To lay that on one group, is short sighted and isn't supported by data. Data is the larger group experience, not one person's opinion.
@scottkemp9530 sure. An individual's experience doesn't demonstrate population level impact. Just because one experience is a certain way, doesn't mean that the population is impacted as stated. If you want me to fall inline, get a state biologist to bring the data which demonstrates this and is willing to talk about it. All this entertains me, I'm pretty sure that there's a study somewhere that most animals injured during hunting end up dying from their injuries. So the data exists, but it isn't sighted cause it doesn't show an actual population impact.
As hunters we need to fight this whole movement for hunting to become a rich mans sport. Spending 30,000 to 40,000 for a sheep hunt is ridiculous. If you want a guide, fine. But allow DIY and keep prices in check. Eliminate these high dollar auctions for tags. Don't allow public tags (which we all own) to be sold. Even reserving tags for outfitters who can then sell them for high dollar amounts because of high demand is questionable. It is an artificial supply problem because state agencies control how many can be distributed. An outfitter should be able to charge whatever he can for his services, but not for the tag. Tags should be equal opportunity. Outfitters should not be in the business of selling tags, only in the hunting / outfitting business. Getting the tag should be up to the hunter based on draw, not dollars. Keep hunting affordable and public.
Appreciate your comment on this. I find this a super interesting topic. I’ll probably dedicate a video to it. I don’t agree with everything you are saying but a big chunk of it I do.
Touching on the archery wound loss talk - I’ve seen plenty of the same insanity within rifle. I was just hunting in Colorado and one evening heard a hunter above me take SEVENTEEN shots.
There will always be people that make poor ethical decisions - but when you factor in the difficulty in drawing a non resident tag, and the expense, you severely compound the problem.
It’s hard for a resident hunter to relate, the the scarcity and expense for non resident hunters is immense. And that emotional pressure bends the decision making towards the wrong side.
The only answer is to create more abundance of opportunity.
We need more habitat, and more access.
Man you are really doing some deep dives in these interviews I really appreciate it. Its in our DNA to do these things.
Thanks!
I think social media and hunting magazines have distorted real hunting over the last 30 years. Images/video of high fenced privately bred and feed game can make the idea of success completely unattainable for even hunters that work very hard for many years. I don't know what the answer is but the genie is out of the bottle.
Thanks Cliff. Thanks Mike. This is the way. Quality conversation! Damn, you guys encapsulate the best of the spirit of hunting!
I stopped bow hunting elk after seeing how many elk were lost to bad shooting. People taking 60 yard and 100 plus shoots..disgusting
It’s disgusting to catch a stocked fish…..
When people travel 15-30hrs 1 way to go hunt elk that cost them thousands they will make questionabke shots in the hopes it gets them their elk. It's sad but the pressures of getting a elk cause the majority of bad shots. Elk fever seems to be worse than buck fever.
I was raised as a meat hunter but this man makes a dam good point about areas that are known for putting out trophy bucks. I normally hunt 62 here in CO because it's the unit I live in and know the best but I do agree the units by Gunnison should be managed for larger bucks. I also couldn't agree more with not shaming others for what animal they decide to harvest. If you want to hunt 10 years to get the perfect buck by all means and same goes for the guy that just wants some good meat in the freezer.
I agree 1000000% on the archery portion where Mike discusses taking broadside standing shots only. I've got friends every year that wound elk with a bow and with a rifle and it disgusts me. I know accidents happen from time to time but staying disciplined and only taking the best shot possible is crucial for ethical hunting. I've shot 5 elk with my bow with 7 tags and have never wounded a single elk. All but 1 have been shot within 25 yards broadside and all have been lung shots where the elk go no more than 100 yds and die. Its a pretty simple strategy that takes patience and persistence. If you can't take a lethal shot let it go.
I have killed two bulls and wounded/lost one bull. The two killed were double lung shots, broadside under 30 yards. I took a frontal shot at 25 yards and hit the shoulder on the wounded bull. I was sick physically/mentally for weeks...spent 4 days looking for him. I took that shot because it was day 14 for me and season was about to end....and i was desperate and let my ego tell me i could make that shot. I was wrong and will never, ever do that again! It was the worst hunting experience in my life. Love your podcast and guests bro!
Thanks for sharing. Yes, it’s a rough situation and most people get into it the way you describe… outside pressures
I’m sure that bull lived. I did the same exact thing one year and the next year I killed the same bull the next year. I found my broadhead imbedded in his shoulder blade from the year before.
Putting in the time, ahmen! Muley hunter out of Utah here. My boys and I all hung our tags on +20 inch deer this year. All in the same day and on the same ridge. I do atribute some of it to luck but I was out all week putting in the time.
A huge issue in Eagle is their extremely high population growth. Brush Creek, which was one of the primo mule deer wintering (all private ranches), has been completely turned into Denver looking subdivisions. The elk also get pushed by yippy e bikers during calving season, and we have lost a lot from abandonment. There are just too many humans in their habitat!
Couple Ideas to make hunting better.
-ban ATV access on all non full size vehicle roads.
-archers must pass an accuracy Class.
This is exactly what I do anymore. My motto is "big buck or save a buck". Elk I hunt for meat, deer for antlers. I'd rather eat my tag than shoot a young smaller buck. I wish more people didn't have the mentality of having to fill the tag in their pocket. The state obviously can't manage the animals so us hunters are going to have to start doing it if we want the quality to come back.
Mike, great discussion on CO mule deer, I learned a lot!
Question: I live in San Isabel National Forest in unit 57 and thus apply for a 49, 57, 58 tag. The last few years they have been doing 800 buck tags and 10 doe tags. I feel like this forces a lot of "meat" hunters to put in for a buck tag, when they'd be perfectly happy with a mature doe, and that this is decimating the buck population and preventing us from getting some decent mature bucks. Am I off base here?
I do see a few nice bucks here and there, but there's definitely not that many.
Absolutely agree. Mulies here in Colorado are having a rough time. Habitat loss, CWD, extreme hunting pressure. Hunters have less access to quality hunting lands (I used to hunt your area until development overtook my hunting spots outside Poncha - I avoid landowners and ranchers just to enjoy my hunts). I absolutely don't understand why CPW allows shooting forkhorn and below. A 3-point minimum on buck would really give the bucks a break. I am always willing to fill a doe tag for meat. I'm also willing to not fill a tag before killing a juvenile. I think we hunters need to accept less harvest, manage Mulies for the benefit of the herds, not to make everyone who wants tags happy, or create business for outfitters.
Great convo an topics you dont get anywhere else, thanks Cliff! I also don't envy game managers I live in Utah and their responding to public input. When they do surveys they continue to get majority responses that say we want opportunity over quality of big animals. So then they manage to what the people are asking them to manage to so that their families have more than opportunity to have a yearly tradition carry on but at the cost of reducing overall numbers and quality of the game. Utah's at least trying this year to implement some study units in southern Utah where they're going for the first time to try point restrictions to see if that helps keep quality up in historically desirable units. I come from the east coast and whitetail point restrictions have been a thing a long time there and they are proven to work but the density of animals doesn't reduce the number of tags there like the western game species would have as an outcome. No easy answers but the conversation must happen to get to the ones that are at least well thought out and considerate of what outcomes we are trying to produce. When mule deer numbers are in continual decline but states refuse to lower their tag numbers to the public outcry it's the case of you can't have your cake and eat it too so this is part management but also part of the public hunters input that's driving the numbers down instead of facing into the problem and accepting there should be less tags in periods of time when there's less animals.
Here's a provocative question Cliff, what would you think about the idea of a state rotating in a no hunting season every x number of years? So maybe every 3 years for deer there's an absolutely no harvest and then maybe every four or five years elk. I know that weather lately has been a big factor with harsh winter kills but the math is hard to calculate in my head what would have happened if we gave the deer two or three years to rebound after the historic winter? Would we be how much better off and then would that sacrifice be worth the price to the hunters?
Definitely enjoyed the message and mostly agree but I think if you are going to bring up lost animals you can't ignore the new hunters or sometimes even seasoned hunters who now all seem to think that they can shoot a elk at 1000 yards because they saw someone on tv.. or the new hunter that gets their rifle boresighted and away they go.. its a ethical choice much more than the weapon used.
Agreed. It applies to all weapon choices.
I haved matured as a hunter so that I am more proud of the shots not taken than those I do take. I passed 2 shots on elk this year that I could have made likely but not perfect. I have seen wounding loss from both rifle and bow due to shot selection, neither are immune if the hunter is not picky about shots. We need to share with other hunters this perspective. Just look at the rifle shots on video of long shots with followup shots to even hit the animal. 40 yard archery shares the same risk as 400 yard rifle. Similar aiming error, wind and time for animal to move and create a bad wound instead of a clean kill. Those are both wounds that we as hunters are responsible for not just bad luck.
Well put. Thanks
Frank and refreshing conversation on issues and marks of hunting culture now under pressure to change with current practices and "times". Ethics and morals are always to be regarded and considered, and crushing realities of hard recruitment of youth into the field sports all are somehow to be hashed through and even balanced. Criteria of "success" cannot only be narrowly understood in numbers, nor can "experience" be canned and jaded with high fence and game ranch environments. The current hunting world realities are establishing a very fragile continuum that could easily be abused and broken for lack of participation alone. Sadly, I see hard work ahead that has likely poor returns for the efforts so established today. Change is a catalyst and a tempering director for still envisioned hunting futures.
When using trekking poles, do you prefer a spike tip or a rubber tip? I prefer the spiked tip, but it makes more noise.
Spike. I beat up the rubber tips and they wear through to the metal anyways
@@CliffGray Thanks great to know.
I haven’t finished the video yet so forgive me if they touch on this topic but habitat loss is also a huge issue. I live in Chaffee county and the population and new developments has exploded in the last 5 years. Subdivisions have popped up all over the surrounding mountains and mountain bikes and razors are flooding into every trail. This isn’t hunting pressure but it’s definitely pressure and I’ve seen animal behavior change drastically as a result. The idea of a “small mountain town” is an illusion in Colorado these days.
Archery shot selection is important. 7 bulls arrowed, 7 bulls recovered. Not one went over 120 yards. Multiple fell within site. We can't question the effectiveness of the equipment. lts all on the bowhunter...
I'm just some dumba$$ from Wisconsin, but this is one of the best podcast episodes i have seen. I was hunting Colorado every year in the early 2000s and the amount of big bucks was insane, even in easy to draw units. I have no idea why the DOW is pretty much wiping them out with the amount of tags they give out.
The game commission thinks they are going to wipeout CWD by reducing the buck population
As much as I love hunting media and entertainment. I do think I'm falling more and more in line with Matt Rinella and Hunt Quietly concepts.
I have taken 20 plus elk with a bow and to date have not lost a single animal. This is in part to my commitment to only take high percentage shots and not shoot just on the hope that I will fill my tag. I also know my equipment well and have shot the same bow for several years. I am confident of what it can do. I don't believe that 80% of hunters are wounding animals yearly, that's crazy! I do know too many are wounded though.
I drew a great archery elk tag last year and had 2 different bulls over the 370" mark, broadside, that I did not shoot at because they were in the 100 yard range, on multiple occasions. I also had them at close range but could not get a clean shot. I ended up eating my tag chasing one of the big bulls til the last minute of the last day but I was glad that I didn't take an iffy shot on such a magnificent animal. This is MY take and opinion on what shots should be taken. Yes, I can shoot to 100, but animals have too much time to move at that range and for me that is the reason I won't take the shot. I have had more than a few people say I'm stupid and that they would have taken the 100 yard shots. I'm ok with the memories I have and the animals that I haven't wounded. It's the respect I have for the amazing animals we get to hunt. Also, I already have a 370" bull that I called in and took with my bow at 18 yards.
I know many people who have wounded multiple animals by taking 700+ yard rifle shots on animals. I found a nearly 380" bull that had his knee blown off by a misplaced bullet that was shot at 780 yards. He was still alive but barely able to move from the massive pain he was in from his injury. I found someone with a late season tag and he harvested that bull. I found out later who the hunter was that wounded him and the shot distance from a mutual friend. Can rifle hunters make 1000 yard shots, yes. Can a bowhunter make 100 yard shots, yes. Should they? they find out after the shot with either a kill, a wounded animal or a miss. I hope most people would err on the side of not taking the shot if there is less than a 95% chance they can make the shot. Only your conscience can tell you that.
Great convo on all these topics, especially deer management, and his advice on guys doing hunts that they really can't afford. I know too many friends that lost marriages and families from the need to chase another animal. That will never be worth it. Good luck and hunt on!
As someone who's home state is California I couldn't agree more than states need to move to a quality of deer management program more than a opportunity program. In CA it has to have forked horns. I think moving to 3 points per side we be much better for herd quality and overall numbers
CPW has unfortunately been forced to largly focus on the money. They went from DOW to CPW and have a much larger expense that needs to be covered by hunter fees. They literally can not cut tags unless they dramatically raise prices. I have been saying that for almost 2 decades, they vastly over estimate the elk herds, so OTC is not on the chopping block. The state will never help fund CPW because the East slope hates hunting in Colorado, too.
Mike your buck behind you is the coolest buck I have ever seen in my life. I remember reading you killed the buck when you had a bad flu and at last shooting light
I like Robby too, and his optimism, but that won’t put big bucks on the mountain. Robby has been the IDFG (Idaho) golden boy for years because he sang their song and they sold as many tags as they could. For years.
They FINALLY stopped the youth doe hunts but it was way too late by then.
Deer hunting quality bucks is as bad as I’ve ever seen it in the west - that’s about 45 years worth.
I think this man is spot on that hunters who want to hunt quality deer must pound the table really hard.
I’d wait 5 years of not hunting deer for the chance to hunt a quality area that has big deer.
You can buy 2500$ glass and a custom rifle and have the nicest gear but if there are no big bucks within miles of you, you ain’t gonna find one. No matter how hard you hunt.
We have the habitat, but predators and the F&G management have decimated the deer. IMHO.
I have lived and hunted Colorado hunting big game all my life. One thing that I never understand on Muley buck hunting is the state allows shooting spike and forkhorn bucks. These are juvenile deer without any experience. Give them a year or two and they double in size and grow some impressive headgear. It hurts me to see some amazing forkhorns with great genetics taken out of the gene pool for meat. I guess there is an argument that spikes need taken out. Still, we protect spike elk with 4 point minimums, and elk aren't nearly having the problems the mule deer herds are having. If the issue is herd management, up the doe harvest. I really don't understand this management approach.
Clearly there has been too much harvest of mature bucks. But Regarding mule deer in Colorado how would you account for the influence of the questionnaire that CPW sends out each year asking about harvest and hunting preference for said unit? Past three years they ask me if I want to hunt for quantity or quality. I’m betting others are answering quantity on that.
Colorado parks and wildlife needs to take a long hard look at our mule deer population,
They are giving out tags like candy and ppl will shoot anything that moves our numbers are low and our quality is a bust !
Co has long been known for our great mule deer now we have totally fallen off the band wagon!
CWD will never be eradicated it lives in the soil and comes up in the plants! It is really tuff to find a mature buck anymore,
General deer hunts in Idaho are over done. Congestion and low deer numbers are evident. Draw hunts are better for deer numbers across the state.
There's got to be a way to manage for opportunity and quality at the same time. I certainly don't want to be one of those guys who isn't willing to hunt and put in the work on a general tag and only wait to draw a tag once every 10 years. Thats stupid. I want to be able to hunt every year, even if its with a slingshot. But we shouldn't be shooting young bucks either. We need to somehow limit harvest to mature older bucks, or even a few does to keep the buck to doe ratio right. The last thing we want is big bucks dying of old age. Those are the bucks that should be harvested. Not sure if a point restriction would work, or require a buck to be aged, and if you shoot something younger than 4-5 years, you can't shoot a buck next year, or something similar. Another way to manage the harvest is through equipment restrictions. I would rather be able to hunt with a bow than not hunt at all. But the last thing I would support is going to all draw hunts so we can't hunt every year. If anything, we need to eliminate draws and manage it through age restrictions, equipment restrictions, etc... Allow people to bow hunt these great units, and eliminate the draws. It would be crazy for a couple of years and then people would spread out.
What's up Utah here MULES my Fav the Buck i got this Year Scored. 208 and I got a 6 point Bull and All i Hunt is public land i have Hunt the same Area for the last 15 years. I get a good buck every year. I just learned how to let the other hunters work for me.🤘🇺🇲🇺🇲🤘
Boy id love to know how many are being lost with 600-700 yard shots with rifles. Seems to be a disturbing trend. Guys throw a dial up scope and there good to go! Shot mistakes happen with rifle and archery. If guys choose to not practice and take poor shots, both are gonna produce wounded animals!
Don’t worry Colorado once the wolves get settled your left leaning state won’t let you hunt them anyways. Ask Washington how that goes make a management plan then keep moving the goal post so they will never be hunted. Why do you think the tribes there are more than happy to send you more!
The reason why political opinions become so evenly split on seemingly fringe issues even across a wide population is actually very well understood from the perspective of game theory, linear algebra, and geometry of high dimensional spaces. It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the limits of human cognition or physiology except insofar as we are reflections of the underlying logic of our world.
This isn't really secret or esoteric knowledge. There are thousands of academic papers on the subject from multiple disciplines and modern political campaigns having more to do with data science and network analysis than anything else is well documented in the mainstream media. People are fairly resistant to the idea, partly due to ego and partly due to not understanding the math behind it. I'm not aware of anyone having understood these principles to actually argue against them because they are so conclusive.
Duplan doesn't like archery losses. Cause no one is out hunting after the rifle seasons.
If the archery losses were as significant as implicated, the reason for reduced opportunity would be because of losses during the season. Not resident interpretation of impact.
Duplan isn’t wrong on wounding losses.
@brianjones3598 possibly. Taking Colorado as an example. Guy finds a dead animal during 1st rifle. "Archery hunters cause so many losses". That's possibly true. Unless there's an arrow hanging out of the elk that proves definitely that it was archery, it might be an early rifle kill, muzzleloader kill, or archery. By 4th season, most animals have moved way down range and the chances of someone finding an unrecovered animal go way down cause they aren't hunting in the same ranges.
Are there unrecovered animals in each season? Yes. Is one season worse than another? Probably. Is there proof that archery is terrible and causing significant animal losses that the agencies aren't accounting for? No. All hunting seasons have some amount of losses. Mainly due to people trying to perform beyond their abilities. It is a part of hunting. To lay that on one group, is short sighted and isn't supported by data.
Data is the larger group experience, not one person's opinion.
Do you refute Cliff’s comments coming from his experience as an outfitter and witnessing literally 50% of elk hit were not recovered?
@scottkemp9530 sure. An individual's experience doesn't demonstrate population level impact. Just because one experience is a certain way, doesn't mean that the population is impacted as stated.
If you want me to fall inline, get a state biologist to bring the data which demonstrates this and is willing to talk about it.
All this entertains me, I'm pretty sure that there's a study somewhere that most animals injured during hunting end up dying from their injuries. So the data exists, but it isn't sighted cause it doesn't show an actual population impact.
If your Hunting Hi Fence you are Hunting for the Wrong Reason 🤘🇺🇲🇺🇲🤘
maybe
Hey don't give away the secrets north of the thorne...!
Read culture of critique by Kevin Macdonald if you want to know more about the culture war
Could you please get a better microphone holy crap
It’s disgusting to catch a stocked fish…
isn't there a place for multiple options? Your opinion and circumstances aren't the only ones that deserve respect
Cliff, you uploaded this at like 3am. Get some sleep you insomniac!
Bwhaha!