What to Think About During Zazen (Fukan Zazengi)
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- Опубліковано 28 січ 2020
- Fukan Zazengi translations - terebess.hu/zen/dogen/Fukanza...
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Just watching any one of your videos inspires me, Brad. You're a good teacher. Thank you for what you do.
You prolly dont care at all but does anybody know of a way to log back into an instagram account??
I stupidly forgot my login password. I would appreciate any assistance you can offer me!
@Patrick Collin instablaster ;)
@Colten Troy Thanks for your reply. I got to the site thru google and Im trying it out now.
Looks like it's gonna take a while so I will reply here later with my results.
@Colten Troy it did the trick and I now got access to my account again. Im so happy:D
Thanks so much you saved my ass!
@Patrick Collin you are welcome :)
years and years of sitting and i love coming back to this video
Great video Brad! Thanks for doing this for us. I wish I would have soto zen community near by.
dude your videos are so helpful, thank you so much
Thanks so much for this video, Brad. I have just recently, (about a year ago), narrowed my Buddhist focus to Zen. I've read various books on the subject (including several of yours) and am working my way through shobogenzo. This video was very instructive on nailing down a question I've had about zazen. My background was more directed towards focusing on the Nine Stages of Calm Abiding, as taught by the previous Buddhist nun Mindah Lee Kumar, aka The Enthusiastic Buddhist. After reading Alan Watts book on Zen, I found that that was the direction that really appealed to me. Your books and videos have been invaluable, and I sent a small donation recently... hopefully it got to you okay. Thanks for all you do, and keep up the great work!
This explanation of the Fukan Zazengi , especially the bit about the kanji, was outstanding. VERY helpful! Thank you!
Just came across your channel. I found Hardcore Zen in a library 10 or 11 years ago. It had a huge impact on me. Growing up in the eighties with punk and hardcore and being a lifelong fan of Ultraman I think it resonated in a way few books had. Just wanted to say thanks. Looking forward to picking up the new one. Cheers .
Thanks!
i love when you show your books!! gassho!!
That was phenomenal
Thank you, this answers some of my questions.
Some Zen master said, illuminate the mind without letting it rest on anything.
Thanks for the Philadelphia shout-out!!
Great content - thank you
Something that occurred to myself during Zazen is that, as the word water cannot be drunk, so to concept of thinking is not thinking
Does the book which is "a list of all books with no references to itself" include itself?
@@robertsyrett1992 All thoughts are metaphors. If understood as metaphors then there is no problem of thoughts sticking. Bodhidharma said that the sutras contain many metaphors that people take literally and this is where confusion is compounded.
I find water a bit too wet.
How do you not have 1 Million subscribers? Your channel is awesome
My old zen center used to chant this together in the middle of our zazenkai and I always loved it. Even this Analytical essay on zazen wasn’t read to conceptualize, but was chanted. I feel like it “sunk in” for me during those all day zazen sits.
It's pretty standard practice to chant Fukanzazengi. Nishijima Roshi never did it, so I was taken aback the first time I encountered the practice of chanting Fukanzazengi. But I think it has value.
Very helpful video. Thank you!
Thanks again Brad - the whole ‘thing’ distilled down to its essence; and at the end, the only thing to say is: ‘just do it’
Wow this is good. Thank you.
Very helpful! Thanks.
I read your book right when I first moved to Taiwan 10 years ago from the US. It is a found memory. It’s good to see you.
Thanks. They sell my books in Taiwan?
@@HardcoreZen A friend from the Philippines introduced me to "Hardcore Zen" where she bought it. They do get around.
story time, delightful
thank you for sharing further exploration
Nice! Thank you.
Thank you 🙏🏻
Just went through a little of taoism - lao tzu. A lot of "just sitting" part of shikantaza made so much sense. The way - is directly taken from taoism.
Saw in a video that the Chinese translators wrote down bodhidharma's sermons with a tao mindset. That seems to be the reason behind the do nothing. It fits very nicely into the tao philosophy.
Cheers
awesome, thank you so much
Thank you!
Interesting. The way I used to meditate was notice any thoughts that came in, acknowledge them, then let them go in a kind ‘not now’ manner. I thought zazen was go ahead and let the thoughts come. Which I have been doing this week and it’s interesting how the thoughts just die down on their own and you are just sitting in nothing naturally without ever having thought about doing it. Without having to focus on your breath or any other tricks, it just happens. This was a revelation to me.
Google is so creepy. As of this morning, I happen to be two hundred pages into It Came From Beyond Zen, and this video just showed up in my news feed. Now that I'm here, I just want to say that I'm really enjoying it! I finished Don't Be a Jerk, and then I thought, "Oh, yay! There's a Volume Two!" Put simply, thank you for the inspiration.
That IS creepy! But thank you!
Love that Neal Stephenson prominently displayed.
Vaguely recollect the phrase 'thinking not thinking'. Thinking the phrase may actually point to the deconstruction of thought through just noticing the deeper inner level of thought where brain waves which construct thinking arise through sensory space- hence thinking/not thinking/... Maybe that points to the same as the Perception/Non Perception 8th Jana.
I love the dragon story
Thanks Brad, interesting and helpful as always. How do you interpret Dogen's "the treasure house" and its contents? The phrase seems to imply that there's some goal or reward at the end of it all.
The treasure house (and its contents) is exactly where you are right this very minute.
@@HardcoreZen Yay! :)
I also at some point think the thought of "notice my thoughts and let them go" and itself being a thought it often echos. While I am otherwise able to unattached to my thoughts during practice, this feedback does cause me some discomfort as it is hard to let go and in particular harder to avoid some contrition as a result. My habit to break this cycle is to allow some physical sensation or to deliberately focus on a specific area in the breathing process to momentary grasp my attention.
It is difficult to reach the point of being unattached to the importance of thought and I have never stayed in that sort of zone longer than when I had my first introduction via guided meditation. However, after each zazen practice I am noticeably more circumspect throughout the day. A sensation that is close to being aware of dreaming while inside the dream but without the safety or curiosity of lucidity.
I like your idea of 'deliberately focusing on a specific area in the breathing process....: I too find this helpful to bring myself back to the relevant task.
Brad,
One thing that puzzles me: how do you reconcile all these zazen "shoulds" (e.g. you should think not-thinking, you should open the hand of thought, etc.) with the statement that zazen is not different than experience? Some people interpret the latter statement to mean "whatever I do on the cushion, then that's zazen." But surely if I sit and doze off or think about my tax returns, I'm not doing zazen?
Sometimes thoughts about tax returns come up during zazen. If you find yourself following those thoughts, try to put them aside. That's part of zazen. So is feeling sleepy.
I'm always amazed how soto zen teachers nowadays basically just read over the "Learn to take the backward step that turns the light and shines it within. Mind and Body will naturally drop off and your original face will manifest yourself" part. Like it's not even there. But this actually points to a very long tradition (eko hensho) that goes back to bodhidharma ("show me your mind") and is what connects Zen to other traditions like Dzogchen (pointing out instructions). I think it's the very essence of Zen and can not understand how it's missed all the time. I mean it's there in Fukanzazengi and also in other parts of shobogenzo so it's obviously quite an important point no? It's the part that did lead Dogen to realize "body and mind dropped off"!
It's an interesting phrase that Nishijima Roshi used to talk about a lot. I decided that I mostly wanted to do a video about "thinking the thought of not thinking" and to get into that "backwards step" stuff would make the video way too long
@@HardcoreZen Maybe an interesting subject for another video then sometime! The only way I remember Nishijima talking/writing about it was his interpretation of it that went something like "in zazen we return to a more simple/natural state of the nervous system".
@@HardcoreZen I gather that the Japanese for "ekō henshō no taiho" is 囘光返照之退歩 (I'm not sure about "之"; it might be "乃", in Dōgen's manuscript, but it's definitely not "の"); doesn't Dōgen extol this as "the essential art of zazen"? I, too, would like to see/hear you devote a video to this instruction, since (it seems to me) if one does this (or at least tries to do it) when one is sitting -- or at any other time, for that matter -- then the "thinking about not thinking," etc., can happen automatically. On the other hand, various questions about what it is that is being aware of being aware (so to speak) can arise, which might quickly (but misleadingly?) segue into a "no-self versus self" discussion.
@@ameublement I'll see what I can do. I didn't know that Dogen didn't know の. The version I have of Shobogenzo apparently modernizes 之 into の. But I'm familiar with 之 because it appears in Chinese quotations a lot. In any case, when I'm doing zazen, I generally don't even think of this kind of stuff at all. I try to do nothing other than pure sitting. Easier said than done!
So, the meanings of Japanese Kanji don't map directly onto Chinese characters, but to pick apart 思量 a bit, 思 means "thought/thinking" and 量 means "level/amount of", therefore you can think of it as "quantity of thoughts" if you want to get more particular than just "thinking" as Nishijima/Cross translated.
12:12 so far I haven't come across any women mentioned in any of the books I've read, are there any?
The "old poem" probably being 2 poems :
The 1st -
Our body is the Bodhi-tree, and our mind a mirror bright.
Let us polish it endlessly, and let no dust alight.
And Huineng's answer-
Bodhi is not an entity, nor our mind reflecting light
since there is no duality, where can dust alight ?
i think i attained while out walking for a few hours i felt deep peace and calmness, but it didnt last, a spiritual teacher though said because im a artist ,painter, that i can awaken from doing my art, still seeking
@@paulnash4583 Nothing lasts - but if you've seen silence, you now know it exists.
@@macdougdoug but whats the point if i can never return to that experience, again in this life time.
@@paulnash4583 same as all other experiences - although silence (the ending of conflict and desire) is always here "available"
@@paulnash4583
This is why the emphasis is on zazen, not on achieving a particular state.
"self liberate by naked awareness" (padmasambhava). 🕸
Thinking about not thinking could it be the Taoist concept of wei wu wei or doing not doing
I need to reach enlightenment....where are you located
Who needs to reach enlightenment?
When you do Zazen is it ok to count your breaths and say things like "Zazen is sacred, meditation is sacred, concentrate on the present moment etc"? Or you should just count your breaths?
i have a question, if thought is the natural secreation of the mind, are ideas our own creation? So if, by openning the hansd of thought, are we being told to not form thought into ideas? Does the teaching then become rest in the nature of thought, but do not grasp onto the essence of mind and create your own ideas? Sorry for my poor choice of words.
I think I understand what you're asking. It's a difficult question. I'm not sure if what I call "my ideas" are really mine in the sense that most people think of. I think that most of my thoughts are produced initially by the activity of my brain. By that I mean, they are produced by the various hormones, electrical/chemical activity, blood flow, and so forth that occur in the brain (as well as in the rest of the body). Something (I don't know what) perceives this activity and this gets transformed into conscious thought (again, through processes I don't understand). The point is that most of "my thoughts" don't mean very much and are not worth taking seriously.
But I have developed a habit of taking those thoughts very seriously. And this habit is extremely strong.
So I notice that thinking is going on. I remind myself that the thoughts I'm having are not very important. And I let them go.
@@HardcoreZen first, thankyou i did not expect a reply.
my question comes from an idea, not sure whose it was possibly William Blake:, but , the idea being we create the world , or at least, the reality we experience. in my own way i was joining dots where perhaps there was no puzzle.
once again thankyou for you time.
Brad have you seen a youtube video by Shinzen Young in which he explains the "doing nothing" technique? I understood it the name he uses for shikantaza. He basically said: allow to happen anything that happen and just remember one thing: whenever you notice an intention to control your attention, drop that intention. Hence, it may be that you lost yourself into monkey mind, that you are not concentrated at all, that you get sleepy. It is ok, just remember to drop any intention to control your attention. This seems to me a somehow clear explanation, but I don't know if it I got it right. Am I supposed to pay attention to what is going on? (thoughts, sounds, feelings, body sensations, tinglings, pain, mind monologues etc)? Shall I observe them without engaging them? How is it different from vipassana? Any comment on that?
Link here. ua-cam.com/video/cZ6cdIaUZCA/v-deo.html
I haven't seen the video. I'll take a look. But my answer would be that it's kind of up to the individual. There isn't anything you're *supposed* to do. For myself, I do what I said in the video. And I also observe my posture. Where the mind goes, the body will follow. If my thoughts are jumping around, my posture will start to get bad. So I fix my posture and continue.
I'm not sure about that, but I think in Vipassana you really focus on something. For example bodily sensations. You can get super precise. And somehow there is a goal of gaining insights.
So basically there is something you're doing with your mind.
You use your mind to observe things. Sensations, feelings etc.
It's a technique.
In Zazen you don't do anything specific with your mind.
Of course you're noticing things like sensations etc. but the technique doesn't involve paying any particular attention to them.
You just let things be. Rather than observe things with focus.
If there's one thing you do in Zazen is keeping the posture right when you're noticing it's not. for example when you're leaning forward, if you notice it, you just gently come back to the upright posture.
and same with thoughts.
if you're completely lost in them, and if you notice it, that's kind of enough.
body posture and thoughts are linked.
so basically in Zazen you're doing nothing. except remembering to not do anything when you're seeing you're doing something. ..
kinda weird..
but it makes sense to me to experiment a bit with it and play with it a bit. rather than being super serious about doing it perfectly.
rather than being harsh on ourselves, gentleness helps a lot
@@ytonaona for what I understand, in Vipassana you train a part of your mind (I don't want to say "train yourself", it would be misleading) to pay a special kind of attention to whatever comes to the sphere of awareness. This attention includes: perceive the moment in which the "whatever" arises, recognise its sensory qualities (image, sound, conceptual content, emotional and body-related content) and acknowledge the "whatever" with a non-judgmental attitude. By doing so, it maybe will not trigger an automatic "chain reaction" of thoughts, feelings, bodily sensations and judgements/ attachments/refusals. So yes, I think you are right by saying that in Vipassana "you" do something. It is strenous, but I started to see interesting consequences on everyday life even after after few months of practice. The masters say that with practice this doing becomes automatic, so that it is no longer "you" that do the recognition + decontruction + acknowledgement of the experience, it the same way that it is not "you" who decides what your next thought will be.
However, as I understand both in Vipassana and in Shikantaza the apprentice tries to not engage the thoughts (example: using them to create new thoughts, to build up stories, to cling on comforting fantasies, etc). The "close look plus equanimity plus emotional detachment plus use the breath when you are lost" approach is difficult but in my experience seems to work somehow for beginners. The instruction of "do nothing" is more subtle. I figured it out as "open the hand of thoughts, let them do their stuff and disengage the mind by using no technique at all. Just try somehow to drop the intention of play with the thoughts and be patient." Zazen is "good for nothing" so by definition you cannot fail!
@@Sletty73 I agree with you, for myself at least, that the instruction to do nothing is quite subtle.. and I think, not very correct to be honest..
because, for example, when our posture is not correct, we *do* make it right.
I once asked a teacher about that (because personally I get upset if they say you do nothing and then give you a set of instructions),
and he/she said that yes, you do have the intention to sit upright, but once this intention is set, you forget about it.
something like that..
I understood it as: the intention to sit upright goes in the background of the mind and keeps active there and somehow it's not you who actively does it anymore.
so therefore you can then do nothing..
@hardcorezen could comment on that? that would be helpful.
I mean, could you clarify the contradiction between "no intention, doing nothing" and yet "the intention to sit in a specific posture, and the intention to keep it so" (that's not doing nothing!)
What about the basic "mindfulness (of breathing)"-meditation you're usually taught in Wester meditation circles - everything from, say, Joseph Goldstein to Sam Harris. So ... you (and people practicing Zazen) are not sitting there paying attention to their breath and whenever their thoughts drift away, they bring their attention back to their breath (or other sensations in the body, etc.)?
Dogen said something like, "It's better to have the mind of a wild fox than to count the breaths." I'm thinking of making a video about that.
Das atmende Klarsein : In my opinión, Mindfulness can only be taught by people who live in mindfulness 24 hours over 24 hours. This only happens in Thich Nhat Hanh monasteries and during retreats for lay practitioner. All the rest most of times is bullshit about mindfulness.
Hardcore Zen :
“I breath in and I know I am breathing in,
I breath out and I know that I am breathing out”
The breath unites body and mind as one, it is also used as the anchor helping one to dwell in the present moment. Do not undervalue for a moment this very basic instruction. No matter under how very extreme conditions a person could find himself/herself be that will be enough for that person sit down and to apply this very basic instruction and just hold there following the in / out breathe and by letting be whatever is happening. The continuos coming going back to the breath is what will help to establish body and mind in the present moment.
@@HardcoreZen Based on how mindfulness is becoming popular (and misinterpreted) and on the fact that there are lots of persons that hear just two or three words about mindfulness and then mistakenly think that these apply to any form of meditation whatsoever, I would really enjoy a video on that!
@@Sletty73 Thanks for the suggestion. I'll see if I can come up with something.
What u think about Levels od shikantaza ? Like jhans in theravada
franciszek ledóchowski Norman Fisher gave an interesting dharma talk at Tassajara around this topic which can be downloaded. Zen practitioners on retreat do experience the jhanas but don’t have the framework or lens to label them as such. And of course we Soto Zen types are taught to treat altered states of consciousness as transitory events we don’t become attached to. But if you hang out with Vipassana teachers who put emphasis on jhana and teach the recognition and language to label it, you’ll probably experience it (being the advanced meditators we all are!)
If you learn about satori or kensho from Zen teachers, you’ll probably experience that if you are receptive and work hard.
@@bobg.7976 thx i will chack it
Bob's reply is pretty much what my experience is like. I don't think there's any need to label these kinds of states.
@@HardcoreZen so why i World be intresting ? Do you think that to kansho work you must be some how preper ? I mean Have some expirenc in meditetions. My own expirence told me that this kensho could ( not must ) happen during very strong meditation and specily morning Time is wonderfull. ( for example 7 o clock ) . Ofcourse i know stories about kensho in zen tradition
@@czitek1 I don't think it is necessary to experience kensho. Dogen said, "You may not be aware of your own enlightenment."
Interesting talk, thanks for taking it on. Some Soto clergy put more emphasis on shikantaza than others. I’m not sure it’s the right approach for a lay person trying to develop a sitfing practice. The tendency is to be overcome by how distractable and various the mind is. And become discouraged!
This is a problem. Dogen seems to have started his monks and other students out with shikantaza. He never mentions any preliminary exercises at all. In fact, he says you shouldn't count your breaths. He says, "It's better to have the mind of a wild fox than to count your breaths." So it's better to be distracted than to do an exercise intended to relieve those distractions. I think he was correct. But it's not an easy practice and almost everyone gets discouraged by that. Me included!
Hardcore Zen I didn’t know Dogen said that about foxes and counting the breath. Out here in rural Sonoma Co we have foxes up the yin-yang and they always seem sharp and focussed to me. But Dogen was probably alluding to some mythological fox and his students understood the reference.
@@HardcoreZen and me too! I just finished a 30 min sitting and basically it was daydreaming 99% of the time. Most of the time there was no observer, but I feel that it was not so different than watching a tv show. As a beginner I'd say that vipassana is much more strenuous, but shinkantaza is much more difficult to grasp and to make sense of as a beginner. It feels like the normal everyday daydreaming.
Hardcore Zen When I hung out at SFZC in the Seventies counting the breath was encouraged if your mind was restless (as is my usual state). Then it fell out of favor, I’m told, for a couple decades but now it’s back in style in meditation instruction. The Path of Purification commends it, so it’s a venerable technique.
Sletty73 I took the 10 day Vipassana course at Dhammamanda in Lake Co. and it’s much more highly structured in terms of technique than Soto Zen. The videos of Goenka talks have constant repetition of what your mind should be attending to. Most beginners need that, otherwise they get lost in mental feedback loops. But Soto and its zendo rituals are far more formal and structured than anything in Vipassana, at least its California incarnation. More Japanese I’d say.
思量箇不思量底 would be "sīliang gè bùsīliang dǐ", 非思量 would be "fēi sīliang". But that's modern Putonghua, and probably doesn't correspond to what would have been pronounced in the region of Zhejiang in the 13th century. Probably more like shiryô ko, fushiryô tei...
This is a good video and all but my burning question is what is the full name of that .......Jesus. For Dummies book near your head?
It's The Historical Jesus for Bummies by Catherine M. Murphy PhD. It's pretty good!
I wonder whether it means thinking a thought that is empty.
Realize all thoughts are empty
When I do zazen and remind myself that my 'goal' is to have no goal, or that my 'goal' is precisely this, sitting, I find myself struck by the thought, 'what's the point?' I then have a strong urge to get up and go watch TV as this (sitting) isn't enjoyable and seems to me a pointless (or purposeless) waste of time. What's the answer to this?
You stated the answer in your question. There's no point. And THAT'S the point! We are always doing something in order to make something else happen. And because of this, we are always disconnected from the present moment. Our minds are elsewhere. Doing something purposeless every day can help you eventually learn to settle into what you're doing right now.
@@HardcoreZen thanks for the reply. So then there is an underlying purpose of sorts, i.e., to become more present? Is it ok to have this underlying motive?
@@awreckingball We all have motives. But I think it's better to forget about motives and just sit.
Zen is good for nothing
12:36
Playstation 2 lol!
what a joke!
this brad is a funny guy, yeah, speak up, ill laugh. plz
"practice is experience so zazen is enlightenment"
huge jump mate
the fools
pursuing something
they can't grasp
making the grasping their
claim
for
enlightenment
@@chimene3851 you're not enlightened and not honest enough to admit it, you just have no idea, its a huge deal
There is no such thing... There is don't know. And there is get to know. Nothing special about that. What do you think enlightenment is? Also how do you know Lisa is not enlightened... Have you met Lisa do you know Lisa?
@@TheTarutau well, that's what the unenlightened think, i presume you are another net zennist with no real life experience of it ?
@@osip7315 are you enlightened and if you are do you think your responses represent this? From what I can tell your here to tell people what you know. But you have yet to show don't know mind. Why? Does enlightenment give you an excuse to belittle others? It has given many reasons to abuse others. You may keep your enlightenment I prefer don't know.
@@TheTarutau u are from r|zen, that den of bad dreamers ?
you haven't answered my question about your having not any experience of real life zen, its dishonest not to do that, i'm not prepared to discuss further with you and your demonstrated disdain for "good faith"
who is this ? this is your teacher? who is this? omg, ok..ok...unbelievable. a con man, talking zen! WOW! wow, what a funny thing...lol
I am here for your entertainment. It's a free of charge!
@@HardcoreZen oh, ok, i understand now that you are here for my entertainment. thnx so much, but i do not find you entertaining. i find you as an impostor, a fraud. nothing big, or important. btw, can i ask you a question?....:
how much is 10 $ ?
u are an impostor, ill tell you.
and in zen?
u r in 4 a surprise.
@@bokidimi5215 $10 US is currently worth €10.04.
@@HardcoreZen of course an impostor would never recognize a zen question, let alone answer it in any way that deserves respect. even a question of how much is 10 bucks seems to confuse them. nice try.
@@bokidimi5215 Around 1400 yen.
Hardcore Zen changed my life fifteen years ago, as a 25 yr old punk rocker sitting in rehab. I was searching, but was a staunch atheist. I read your book and Shobogenzo. Dogens explanation of God as impersonal - simply "the ineffable" changed my entire perspective on what God is, or could be. Thank you 🙏
Interesting. The way I used to meditate was notice any thoughts that came in, acknowledge them, then let them go in a kind ‘not now’ manner. I thought zazen was go ahead and let the thoughts come. Which I have been doing this week and it’s interesting how the thoughts just die down on their own and you are just sitting in nothing naturally without ever having thought about doing it. Without having to focus on your breath or any other tricks, it just happens. This was a revelation to me.
Thanks! I think the trick is to learn to be OK with the times when the thoughts don't die down. Somehow one has to find a way to not deliberately engage with thoughts and not try too stop them either. Even so, it's still zazen even when you seem to fail at it.
@@HardcoreZen this response is on point.