Thanks for having Dr. Bhattacharya on the podcast Preston! I found him pretty early on in 2020 and found his approach to be far more measured and reasonable than many of the voices I was hearing all around me. I signed the Great Barrington Declaration in fall of 2020. I find it a testament to his faith and character that even with how badly he has been treated by many in the public health, media, and political spaces, he does a valiant job of extending charity to others. This has been a major area where I lost a lot of trust in particular voices. I think Dr. B's analysis of those within society and the Church falling into the trap of "clean and unclean" is spot on. COVID was a perfect opportunity to easily sort between the two, and many in the Christian church joined right in. Additionally, it was a clear example of how the best of intentions can lead to serious suffering and marginalization of those already at the margins. When I hear people talking about inequality in the US, I think a great point of discussion would be COVID policies, because when addressed honestly, they should humble every single one of us in how much we do and don't know and how complex the issues are. They are also a great near-term example of governmental policy that objectively led to a massive jump in inequality within nations and the world. I appreciate Dr. B bringing it back to this point over and over again. I was a loud advocate for getting kids back into in-person learning and people (who were able and willing) back into embodied churches as soon as possible. This was specifically born out of watching my niece, who is the definition of someone on the margins, get absolutely crushed by COVID policies being enacted in the name of "loving my neighbor". It was absolutely heartbreaking to watch.I personally am still working through a fair amount of anger in how many treated my position in the name of being compassionate.
Also, speaking of the effect on poor people in developing nations, I had a relative who taught at a school in East Asia. The lockdowns in the school's nation (which was very poor) were draconian and did push poor people into starvation. The country's leadership took advantage of the situation to impose basically martial law and curb freedoms. It was a disaster and they were just following Western guidance.
I think a Christian could comply with stay-at-home requests, get vaccinated and wear masks and not look at others as Petri dishes. (It seems that your guest did not allow for this possibility if I heard correctly.) For my own part, as a mom of young kids, I didn't have time time during COVID to do the type of research your guest did, or the background, as I was doing schooling from home with a kindergartner and 2nd grader, as well as figuring out how to do life with kids at home! I looked at compliance with government lock-downs as part of just obeying the civil authorities, and had a vaccine in order to protect the older members of the family as it seemed to not harm me while perhaps providing some protection to the older people who were in our "bubble". It was exactly because I loved them, valued them and wanted to be near to them that we took the precautions that we did, not to self-protect at the expense of others. We also found ways to do community outdoors with those that we loved because community is important to us as well. That being said, I did appreciate the information about how the measures taken in the US affected the poor around the world. I have little control over US policies, so I won't take responsibility there, but the information was really good and challenging. I hope we do better in the future. I think also that you left out another portion of the discussion, though, which I would have loved to have you both discuss. I think many people with whom I interacted who fought against the policies of vaccination and staying at home did so not out of concern for the poor or out of a theological framework of valuing people, but rather out of a mindset that said, "You don't get to tell me what to do." and "My individual rights are most important thing." This is what I saw from the people who were speaking up against the lock downs - not a concern for the poor. I never heard that concern even one time. Even in churches. Even from believers. In my opinion, the above perspective is also a very self-focused and, I would argue, a non-christian, perspective. And not once did I ever hear anyone characterized as clean or unclean. That was very sad to hear and I hope not true of many. I would also loved to have heard if your guest would have supported lock downs if they really did "flatten the curve" and save lives. Who knows what the next pandemic will be like? Might there be a situation where he would support this? Would we then be only treating others as Petri dishes if we are actually saving lives? Thanks for the discussion.
40:20 This example of the med student and the patient and the pressure to give an answer you have no way of being sure of is a fantastic explanation of how mistrust can develop for modern medicine. It applies to professional expertise more broadly, I imagine.
Thank you for having Dr Bhattacharya on. I would like to move on from this issue as much as anyone, but the way we move forward as if there is nothing to see here is not healthy. We need to remember what happened so we can have a humble approach to solving problems. If you struggle with anger over what happened, remember that life is the opportunity we've been given to trust God and lean in to him. I think to my shame I've never been as consistent with my devotions as I was during the early months of the pandemic. Yet, we all need God just as much as we did then. Perhaps I fear the future less knowing how God was with me then and will be with me to the end.
@@judygaleinchapelhill Would that Francis Collins would agree to such a thing. I have been very disappointed in Collins over this issue, though I still think of him as a brother in the Lord.
I think it would be really powerful to get to see a sit down conversation between Bhattacharya and Collins and see how Collins is processing through decisions and actions he took during the COVID era.
@@StumblingThroughItAll I agree. I have no faith that it will happen. Collins may have given his approval to work which ended up killing millions worldwide. If he didn't give initial approval (which may have instead come from Dr F.) it looks very much like he participated in the cover up and crack down which Dr. Bhattacharya details. I don't put all my certainty on any of this. That is not where I invest my emotional energy. But for Collins to admit it (or even to explain more fully what his thinking was when he made such a decision) might be for him a betrayal of the institutions and colleagues he worked with, not to mention a legal issue. To admit involvement would be of immense benefit to science and provide lessons for us all, but on the other hand might possibly lead to defunding institutions he values and in our current political environment would surely become a political lightning rod. On top of that he would be almost certainly placing himself in legal jeopardy (if not criminally then civilly). Such an interview will not happen. There are also plenty of prior examples of scientific and medical failure if you care to look (debates over germ theory and hand washing come to mind). We live in a fallen world and look forward to its utter renewal and transformation.
You're kidding, right? Collins should be thrown in prison, (along with Fauci) for crimes against humanity. They knew exactly what they were doing and what the consequences would be. They just wanted to do the "experiment."
He's said he believes the vaccine saved older people....but what about people that are overweight, type 2 diabetics, immunocompromised individuals? And I have seen many studies saying that Republicans died at a greater rate AFTER the vaccine was available. I wonder if he has any thoughts on those studies, because there are a lot of them.
Thanks for having Dr. Bhattacharya on the podcast Preston! I found him pretty early on in 2020 and found his approach to be far more measured and reasonable than many of the voices I was hearing all around me. I signed the Great Barrington Declaration in fall of 2020. I find it a testament to his faith and character that even with how badly he has been treated by many in the public health, media, and political spaces, he does a valiant job of extending charity to others.
This has been a major area where I lost a lot of trust in particular voices. I think Dr. B's analysis of those within society and the Church falling into the trap of "clean and unclean" is spot on. COVID was a perfect opportunity to easily sort between the two, and many in the Christian church joined right in.
Additionally, it was a clear example of how the best of intentions can lead to serious suffering and marginalization of those already at the margins. When I hear people talking about inequality in the US, I think a great point of discussion would be COVID policies, because when addressed honestly, they should humble every single one of us in how much we do and don't know and how complex the issues are. They are also a great near-term example of governmental policy that objectively led to a massive jump in inequality within nations and the world. I appreciate Dr. B bringing it back to this point over and over again.
I was a loud advocate for getting kids back into in-person learning and people (who were able and willing) back into embodied churches as soon as possible. This was specifically born out of watching my niece, who is the definition of someone on the margins, get absolutely crushed by COVID policies being enacted in the name of "loving my neighbor". It was absolutely heartbreaking to watch.I personally am still working through a fair amount of anger in how many treated my position in the name of being compassionate.
Also, speaking of the effect on poor people in developing nations, I had a relative who taught at a school in East Asia. The lockdowns in the school's nation (which was very poor) were draconian and did push poor people into starvation. The country's leadership took advantage of the situation to impose basically martial law and curb freedoms. It was a disaster and they were just following Western guidance.
I think a Christian could comply with stay-at-home requests, get vaccinated and wear masks and not look at others as Petri dishes. (It seems that your guest did not allow for this possibility if I heard correctly.) For my own part, as a mom of young kids, I didn't have time time during COVID to do the type of research your guest did, or the background, as I was doing schooling from home with a kindergartner and 2nd grader, as well as figuring out how to do life with kids at home! I looked at compliance with government lock-downs as part of just obeying the civil authorities, and had a vaccine in order to protect the older members of the family as it seemed to not harm me while perhaps providing some protection to the older people who were in our "bubble". It was exactly because I loved them, valued them and wanted to be near to them that we took the precautions that we did, not to self-protect at the expense of others. We also found ways to do community outdoors with those that we loved because community is important to us as well. That being said, I did appreciate the information about how the measures taken in the US affected the poor around the world. I have little control over US policies, so I won't take responsibility there, but the information was really good and challenging. I hope we do better in the future.
I think also that you left out another portion of the discussion, though, which I would have loved to have you both discuss. I think many people with whom I interacted who fought against the policies of vaccination and staying at home did so not out of concern for the poor or out of a theological framework of valuing people, but rather out of a mindset that said, "You don't get to tell me what to do." and "My individual rights are most important thing." This is what I saw from the people who were speaking up against the lock downs - not a concern for the poor. I never heard that concern even one time. Even in churches. Even from believers. In my opinion, the above perspective is also a very self-focused and, I would argue, a non-christian, perspective. And not once did I ever hear anyone characterized as clean or unclean. That was very sad to hear and I hope not true of many.
I would also loved to have heard if your guest would have supported lock downs if they really did "flatten the curve" and save lives. Who knows what the next pandemic will be like? Might there be a situation where he would support this? Would we then be only treating others as Petri dishes if we are actually saving lives?
Thanks for the discussion.
40:20 This example of the med student and the patient and the pressure to give an answer you have no way of being sure of is a fantastic explanation of how mistrust can develop for modern medicine. It applies to professional expertise more broadly, I imagine.
Thank you for having Dr Bhattacharya on. I would like to move on from this issue as much as anyone, but the way we move forward as if there is nothing to see here is not healthy. We need to remember what happened so we can have a humble approach to solving problems. If you struggle with anger over what happened, remember that life is the opportunity we've been given to trust God and lean in to him. I think to my shame I've never been as consistent with my devotions as I was during the early months of the pandemic. Yet, we all need God just as much as we did then. Perhaps I fear the future less knowing how God was with me then and will be with me to the end.
Preston, perhaps you could propose having Francis Collins and Jay Bhattacharya on together to provide options for moving forward? ❤
@@judygaleinchapelhill Would that Francis Collins would agree to such a thing. I have been very disappointed in Collins over this issue, though I still think of him as a brother in the Lord.
I think it would be really powerful to get to see a sit down conversation between Bhattacharya and Collins and see how Collins is processing through decisions and actions he took during the COVID era.
@@StumblingThroughItAll I agree. I have no faith that it will happen. Collins may have given his approval to work which ended up killing millions worldwide. If he didn't give initial approval (which may have instead come from Dr F.) it looks very much like he participated in the cover up and crack down which Dr. Bhattacharya details. I don't put all my certainty on any of this. That is not where I invest my emotional energy. But for Collins to admit it (or even to explain more fully what his thinking was when he made such a decision) might be for him a betrayal of the institutions and colleagues he worked with, not to mention a legal issue. To admit involvement would be of immense benefit to science and provide lessons for us all, but on the other hand might possibly lead to defunding institutions he values and in our current political environment would surely become a political lightning rod. On top of that he would be almost certainly placing himself in legal jeopardy (if not criminally then civilly). Such an interview will not happen. There are also plenty of prior examples of scientific and medical failure if you care to look (debates over germ theory and hand washing come to mind). We live in a fallen world and look forward to its utter renewal and transformation.
You're kidding, right? Collins should be thrown in prison, (along with Fauci) for crimes against humanity. They knew exactly what they were doing and what the consequences would be. They just wanted to do the "experiment."
He's said he believes the vaccine saved older people....but what about people that are overweight, type 2 diabetics, immunocompromised individuals?
And I have seen many studies saying that Republicans died at a greater rate AFTER the vaccine was available. I wonder if he has any thoughts on those studies, because there are a lot of them.