884: Are Temple Oaths & Veils Consistent with Jesus? (Dave Butler 4 of 7)
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- Опубліковано 2 сер 2024
- Are temple oaths consistent with Matthew where Jesus said we shouldn't swear oaths? Dave Butler answers that question and discusses veiling at the temple for women, and the significance of temple clothing. Check out our conversation...
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Dave Butler is brilliant and his insights are amazing! Thank you
He’s one of your best guess so far.
Thanks!!!
Pun intended :)
I agree about the veil on women in the temple and what it really meant
Brilliant, enjoyed all the Episodes
I agree temple changes, and most church policy changes, may have more to do with the image of the church rather than maintaining it presenting God's doctrine.
With regards those things that have been removed, specifically the veil, maybe we just weren’t willing to receive that which we might have received because we are offended by the things God intended to be seen as sacred.
32 And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.
33 For what doth it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he receive not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him, neither rejoices in him who is the giver of the gift. D&C 88
Or maybe because we don't talk about the significance of certain things because we're not supposed to talk about them so they lose they significance and become superfluous, which is why they get removed.
Next time in the temple.... Notice who is always in the celestial room, who has an assignment to be there, At all times ! 🤯 Mind blowing !!!
Men and women are assigned to the Celestial room now, thanks to Pres Nelson, so I think your logic falls apart there. But yes, it used to be only women. Or is that apostasy now?
@@GospelTangents I don't think that change has made its way to Canada yet, or has yet to be implemented... One of the two, but nope, no apostasy there just keeping an open mind to see how things could fit to deepen the experience. It just made a whole lot of sense when part of crossing the Veil ment there was a representative of heavenly father and mother on the other side = eternal life. It also added to brother butlers "devine feminine" logic.
The point I think I was trying to make is that when women would cover with a veil it was pointing our minds to their true importance and role in eternal life and = bearing fruit / eternal progression and to look for that devine feminine behind the veil. It's also amazing that only after the saving ordinances are complete can we take part in the sealing ordinances. We have to go through the veil before we can be sealed to our eternal spouce. ( This could be why President Nelson made the change because having a male spouse representative of what could be next would be more appropriate for the sisters who go through and it's catering less to a masculine stereotype)
Is it logic or fishing .... Either way I feel spiritually fed.
7:30 - I fear the changes to the temple ordinances are also not for the best. I hope I'm wrong but without much explanation as to why the general authorities make changes, it's hard to know exactly why. I feel it's from cultural pressure and from a lack of understanding why we do certain things in the temple to begin with. In the Isaiah Institute translation of Isaiah 24:5 it reads:
5. The earth lies polluted under its inhabitants: they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinances, set at naught the ancient covenant.
This whole chapter talks about the earths inhabitants but who has the rights of the ordinances and understands and uses covenants in the times leading up to the Messiah's coming? The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints does. I don't necessarily think we need to keep the temple ordinances and covenants exactly as they were revealed to JSJr, but I do think church leadership has eliminated some important parts from the endowment that shouldn't have been eliminated, but rather, elucidated.
Isn’t the motivation for changes important. The church is a net meant to gather. It needs to gather as many as possible. If the church was intentionally trying to corrupt the practice, then that scripture could apply. I don’t think that is the case. I would be much more worried about Gileadi teaching that the brethren will eventually fail.
When it comes to changes in the temple endowment can anyone explain why they changed the order of the days of creation for example they moved the forth day and made it the third
So good 💯, thank you 👍
Thank you too!
The first rest Mormon is talking about is be gathered into the Ark of the Covenant (Noah means Rest) to ride a top the many waters that the mother of abominations sits upon until the Heavenly Holy of Holies comes down with the Tree and the Throne.
Just a correction , Denver is not a fundamentalist , he has denounced all Brigham Young teachings , I mean , all of them.Denver is a "Josephite" in a sense , but with no affiliation with the old RLDS Church or their old teachings , if that makes sense.
If his group finally builds a temple I truly doubt that their endowment ceremony would be anything like the Navoo one or the Utah 1870s but a total new one.
We're using the term fundamentalist in the sense that he is a "Josephite" who rejects polygamy.
Denver's just confused lol
The Blood Oaths still have their signs (poses from the penalties) in the temple rituals. New initiates have NO CLUE what they mean. If the leadership refuses to provide informed consent, are these "covenants" really valid?
5:30 They fall down because when joseph created the BoM he infused it with the protestant charismatics of the time where people would be overcome and fall down in revivals all the time.
Talk to Don Bradley about the masons & temple ordinances bring him on the show
You must have missed my interviews with Don, especially episodes 356-60. ua-cam.com/video/UbtYWLxXoGk/v-deo.html
Do you have to be careful because you aren’t allowed to talk specifics about the temple ceremony?
Correct.
Without sounding corny- I felt very sacred when I pulled that veil down. Something hidden and protected from view…
I believe the Book of Mormon speaks of us, from early in the restoration, and all traditions of any connection to Joseph Smith has this upon us:
“…Wherefore, because of their blindness, which blindness came by looking beyond the mark, they must needs fall; for God hath taken away his plainness from them, and delivered unto them many things which they cannot understand, because they desired it. And because they desired it God hath done it, that they may stumble..”
All LDS stumble. We are as the ancient Jews. We all stumble, as we embrace satanically delivered religion, the philosophies of men, mingled with scripture, and how dearly we need to find God direct, with no middle men.
Without the ordinances, godliness is not manifest.
Re: veiling oneself. Today we unfortunately associate it with forced wearing of hijab or burka. Anciently it was a sign of authority, recognized even by angels. When God appears overshadowed by a cloud of glory, it veils and protects those outside the veil from the glory of the One inside the veil.
Yes, the tree is symbolic of the divine feminine, as can be the veil. We all passed through the veil (body) of a human mother to get from heaven to earth.
Yes, this is a key point. Women went behind the veil in the prayer circle, to the position of the Divine Mother. Male and female are connected there in the same way they are at the temple veil, but at the veil, the man is behind the veil, in the divine position. By getting rid of women going behind the veil as we enter eternity, as Dave implies, we cast our Divine Mother out of the ritual, which is a tragedy.
Except that the person behind the veil represents the Father. It’s odd that you would push him out of that role. Even if the mother is behind the veil in reality you’re implying their roles are identical. Sound familiar?
Love what you’re doing! Please though… it’s not the LDS Church and we are not LDS. It’s the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or the Church of Jesus Christ, and we are Latter-day Saints. Let’s have more faith in the Lord’s promises through His prophet concerning power being poured down upon us as we call ourselves and the Church by what the Lord has asked.
I talk to lots of churches with that have of similar names. In fact, I'm getting ready to talk to more groups. Referring to the LDS Church is less confusing than a bunch of Churches with nearly identical names. See these other churches for example. I'm not going to change so my listeners don't get confused. There are hundreds of churches that believe in the Book of Mormon that have variations of the LDS Church name. I'm just trying to be clear. See some of the 187+ episodes on other Mormon Churches: ua-cam.com/video/k4juEh82yuo/v-deo.html
If I only talked about 1 church, I might take your suggestion, but I don't want to confuse those who belong to other Restoration Churches.
Thanks for your informative discussion. Ever consider the idea that some, or many of Joseph's revelations came from a human source? I think Mormons strain at a gnat and try to swallow a camel. But I could be wrong.
Ever consider that Joseph's revelations came from God? I think non-Mormons strain at a gnat and try to swallow a camel. But I could be wrong.
@@GospelTangents Yes. For about forty years. I still do about once every couple of days. But the whole LDS worldview, Adam &Eve, Noah, Brigham Young, Book of Mormon literalism, Book of Abraham, etc. is a lot to swallow. And maybe it's all about what we think are gnats and what we think are camels, metaphorically speaking. Anyway, I hope I didn't offend. I do enjoy the podcasts.
I have not listened to someone this high in a while. Dave could connect two dots with a dry pen all day long
Maybe unveiling the faces of women has significance in the purpose of what a veil is…. It protects or hides or keeps sacred what’s underneath it. If it has been unveiled then it’s the time to engage with that thing that was veiled. Like unveiling the bread and then the water when we partake of the sacrament ordinance. So then if women are the thing that is veiled what is it about women that now needs to be in this world? I believe there’s a deeper meaning to the action than appeasing politics.
What's the deeper meaning?
@@GospelTangentswhat power do women have. And what are women prophesied to accomplish in the last days. As we are unveiled it’s like we are about to be unleashed or enter into the ring so to speak.
So what are women prophesied to do. Go look that up and get back to me.
@@creativegenecircle I ask the questions aroune here.
@@GospelTangents lol😏ok.
Joseph said also that if the ordinances change they lose their effectiveness, they need to be the same for all people to have meaning. Women have made their covenants to either their husband, their husband and God, and now just God. They're not even the same ordinances anymore.
And justifying the lack of substance in the endowment by creating some hidden meaning from whole cloth that "we don't talk about" is just making excuses for prophets given too much spiritual authority from us.
Dave's cherry picking small phrases and extrapolating whole meanings tacked on to match the endowment is just wild speculation.
And the prophets and leaders that created the endowment said explicitly it was a higher form of masonry. The garments have the compass, square, and ruler from the masonic symbol for goodness sake.
Where are the other two thirds of the plates that Joseph Smith wasn't allowed to see. They were returned and given back to Moroni for safe keeping til they come forth again. The plates come forth and are given to the servant whom the Lord sends to take back His vineyard from His enemies. The Lord's enemies have taken over the church and corrupted the gospel. Therefore the two thirds are needed to correct the wrongs and restore the gospel back to it's original form.
Supposedly the plates are in Brazil now. Were you aware? I interviewed a member of the First Pres of the Reborn LDS Church based in Brazil, and their prophet Mauricio Berger has translated a portion: ua-cam.com/video/va2ggtY8-Ok/v-deo.html
@@GospelTangents I was unaware. But I do know if that is what is being said and they are claiming, it's false. The plates will not come through any of the leaders from the LDS church or from any of the so called break offs. Christ did not come from among the leadership of the church when He was upon the earth. He came from among the people. This last servant will not come from among the leadership of the church. He will come from among people too. His identity has been hidden, just as Christ identity was hidden, til it's his time. That's when the plates will come forth. Remember, first by faith, like Peter, then by seeing, like Thomas. Do you believe in the Book of Mormon by faith or do you need to actually see it to believe it. Those plates have not come forth as of yet. Let no man deceive you. For you will know when they come forth.
I was unaware. The plates will not come from or through the LDS leadership or any of the so called break off churches. It will come from the last servant whom the Lord has appointed. This servant does not come from the leadership of the church. He comes from among the people, just as Christ did. Remember, Christ did not come the leadership. He came from among the people. Christ identity was hide til it was His time. This last servant identity is also hidden til his time. So, if someone who's in the LDS church or any of the so call break offs leadership claiming to have the plates. They are false. For they do not have them. They have not come forth as of yet. First by faith, like Peter, as to believing in the Book of Mormon, or like doubting Thomas having to see it to believe it. Who will be further ahead. You will know when the last servant comes and brings forth the plates. So let no man deceive you.
@@keith5459 you seem quite opinionated, yet didn't know about Mauricio. Who is to say he is not the last servant as you stated?
I think you should be more humble in your comments here. If not, I'm happy to delete. Respect is a prerequisite here or comments often get deleted or banned. Just FYI.
Preaching your own idiosyncratic doctrine isn't welcome here, neither is denigrating and other churches claims.
When Christ finished his work, the temple veil was TORN top to bottom. That divider between God and man was destroyed forever. Building temples and hanging veils is BLASPHEMY.
That's one interpretation, but it doesn't mean it is correct.
@thelastgoonie6555 The veil was split, not destroyed. The divider was opened, not taken away. Since the veil symbolically concealed the presence of god, does that mean we are now in the presence of god ? The temple veils are split, just like god left them.
@tezzerii Christ said there wouldn't be a temple left with one stone upon another. OBVIOUSLY Temple worship was about blood sacrifice. NOT masonic deification rituals. Mormon temples are so far past biblical Christianity, any excuses you try to twist are dead on the water.
@@thelastgoonie6555 what !! He said this temple, not all temples. Who's twisting now ? I wouldn't make such assumptions if I were you, even if they seem "obvious". The Jews lost their temple because of apostasy - however before it was destroyed the apostles and disciples visited it regularly, despite it t being supposedly redundant.
@tezzerii There never were multiple temples at one time. That's ANOTHER Mormon perversion of the OT. You're stuck in a Mormon mindset. Have you ever heard the Jewish people talking about building templeS or rebuilding THE Temple?
LDS have it in their mind that the more temples they build, the truer their Corporation is. Sorry to say it so succinctly, but there it is.
I believe that which is veiled is powerful. The veil protects those outaide the veil from the power they re not yet àble to endure. Consider Moses. When women were unveiled in the temple, their power was both acknowledged and released. What was Satan's response? The world was led to believe everyone should mask up.
To answer the question, in Mathew we are told not to swear oaths.
But, that is not the only thing Mormonism justifies.
I could no longer keep wearing garments after I knew the blood oaths I was unintentionally making by accepting the endowment ceremony. I hope God forgives me for that mistake.
If veiling was significant, bet your bottom dollar the men would’ve doing it too. Since they’re not, I doubt it’s that important.