The Problem With Bass Guitar
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- Опубліковано 21 вер 2024
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personnally i love the inconsistency, it give it a natural and sound that keeps u locked in
It might sound good live, but for a professional recording the bass guitar generally has the least dynamic range of any instrument. It's creating a stable foundation for all the other instruments. The only thing more heavily compressed than bass might be vocals.
Listen to what you play while you are playing. I know this sounds dumb but so many people should do this. Your mind kinda blocks hearing yourself because you are thinking about picking and fretting the notes and you are more focused on the other instruments you play on the top of. Also a good bass compressor solves this issue.
Not dumb at all, that's a great point to bring up!
It’s a precious tip to play like this when are simple bass lines like in your examples. A short scale bass will sound deeper than a regular one even with the same pickup system due it’s shorter length for instance. So if you have to play a complex bass line is better chose the right region to fit in the mix. Sometimes is better playing with a standard 34 inch scale bass like yours on the higher strings on the first frets because it sits better mixed with the arrangement, and sometimes it’s the opposite. I love low end and often chose playing as many phrases as possible on upper frets to bring naturally the desired frequencies. But maybe playing rock sits better with a higher combination of frequencies. I mean always about complex bass lines of course!
I like compressors for recording, they spare me the random fret clacks my gorilla technique causes. I do not like them for live performances as they remove the ability to play with dynamic.
"Listen to what you play while you are playing" Dayum, I just KNEW I was forgetting something all these 45 years! ;)
The whole point of me getting into bass was to make the same noises I liked hearing, not listening to what you're playing is like not tasting the food you made
Every bass player has experienced this, it's part of the deal and you can use it to your advantage
Exactly
It's absolutely a feature, and not just of bass, but all the similar string instruments. And choosing where you play a note based on the desired tone, as well as adjusting how you play each note (in case you're changing strings and want to keep the sound more similar) is a huge part of being a musician. Also, this is why people say "tone is in the hands", because it's the first EQ in your chain :P
I think it's important to remember: THE KICK DRUM ISN"T ALWAYS PLAYING!
It's completely okay for the low end to dip in and out, that's literally how rhythm works.
This really shows how what sounds best on isolated bass isn't necessarily what sounds best in a mix!
100%. That goes for a lot of things tbh. If you focus less on what things sound like in solo, and more on what they sound like within the context of the whole mix, you'll get a much better end result.
@@SugarpillProd exactly! One problem that many musicians have, specially "lead musicians" (vocalists, lead guitarists...), but not only, is only focusing on their own playing or their part of the song, so they forget the "context". That way we have guitar players strumming too hard on quieter sections, drummers overplaying on a simple riff, vocal lines being too low/quiet while the instrumental is high-intensity, etc... I think that, even if you're not a composer, you need to always think on the whole picture
@@javihernandez2755 100%. Well put!
Another point that you didn't mention, different basses will have different frequency responses across the strings. Part of the P-Bass's distinctive tone is the split-pickup, but because the E and A side is closer to the neck, it will be bassier than the D and G side closer to the bridge.
Brands like Spector and the Fender Mark Hoppus signatures flip this around and they have a much more even response.
Great point!
That's actually pretty overlooked, you're right to bring it up ! Recently I record plenty of snipets of my own playing just to listen it back and check for inconsistancies in my playing and fixing issues at the source, still got some work to do but helps a lot !
I play a P bass and have wanted to flip it as well!
I just saw a short from Produce Like A Pro yesterday which had another way of dealing with this phenomenon: run a multiband compressor on the bass track, and give everything under 250hz pretty heavy compression to keep the body of all the strings consistent. Haven't tried it yet, but will do soon.
Yeah most bass tracks (at least in rock music) are super compressed, so there's very little dynamic range to them anyway. Multiband comp is great for that, or splitting out the low end of your DI and using the amp track to fill out the tone, then you can compress those independently of each other too.
I know a lot of people prefer to use limited (as in zero) additional hardware external to their interface to save on costs, but as someone who does a lot of DAWless recording, outboard compressors are worth their weight in gold. Even if you prefer to do all the heavy lifting in the software, giving yourself the best possible starting signal is never a bad idea.
For sure! Even if it's just a subtle amount, it can help a lot, especially on things like bass or vocals.
A thin nylon pick with a light touch and moving where I pick each string, ie. closer to the bridge on the E string and moving closer to the neck with each consecutive string, has helped me a lot when recording bass, at least when I'm not playing with my fingers, which I usually do. A good compression pedal and preamp also goes a long way.
Thin picks sound great on bass! I've always found the thicker ones seem to dull the sound a little too much. Could work great in some contexts, but less so if you want a more upfront sound.
Nice. I use all of these techniques. One thing that also can help is boosting the low end and then compressing the heck out of it. You can do that a couple ways. A lot of mix engineers will create a duplicate bass track using the exact same wav file. Then they'll roll off all the high end on one bass track and all the low end on the other bass track. The track with only low end they'll keep super clean. And they'll compress it and limit it until there are zero dynamics. On the high end bass track, they'll add distortion or chorus or some other "character" effect. And they won't compress it as much.
If you don't want to split your signal, you can just use a multi-band compressor to control the low end. I definitely recommend boosting the low end going INTO the multiband compressor though. That way, the multiband compressor won't make your bass sound too thin. And there will always be a good amount of low end info for it to respond to. You can use a simple EQ to boost the fundamental or you can use more specialized plugins. I love Waves R-Bass. It makes the bass more audible by adding harmonic content above a chosen frequency. Scheps Omni Channel also has a couple cool functions that help boost the bass. There's the "Thump" button, and there's also a resonant filter function that makes a bump in low end content directly after where you high pass.
At any rate, the point is to make sure the low end is always present so you can control it.
this is one of the reason why i really like my band now - we are always trying to listen to each other and come out with the best "how does it sound all together" solution . i'm also very blessed that i have 3 very talented and smart musicians playing with me so that helps 🤣
This taught me sound engineers do a great deal of work to cover the natural sound of instruments
Finally someone gets it 🙏😂
I just love the sound of the open A over a fretted A…just my personal preference, but totally get it. Awesome video!
Thank you God, for the inconsistencies! They are not bugs. They are features.
Why do people keep talking about this as though it's a software issue 😂
I noticed that just the other day in Franz Ferdinand's Take me Out's intro. It's VERY clear the differences between some of the bass notes, which is kinda inpressive in such a professionaly recorded and produced huge hit.
Yeah I think the more listen, the less "perfect" you'll find most records to be. It's more of a placebo effect really.
It's always good to strive for perfection, because big imperfections more or less destroy the music.
But at some point, it's important to just listen what the outcome is, in terms of feeling, energy, music... In the end, often the imperfections give a song it's character and make it catchy, imho.
That’s also a big part of what makes that record is that it sounds that scrappy, most of it was recorded live with very little processing
I try playing mostly on the E and A strings and prefer moving up the neck instead of alternating strings as much as possible precisely for this reason.
not a problem, just dynamics
with an active bass with dual humbuckers this is not an issue.🍻
As a bass player for many years, I've been using both tricks, because of course, sometimes having less low end on some notes is great rhythmically. Everything is all about how you use it.
I've never seen this as a disadvantage. With a mild ammount of compression (3:1 or something) the difference is much less drastic, and the different note tambres are very useful for making basslines more interesting. 5 string basses also solve a lot of this by allowing you to access the 0 octave of far more notes, allowing for a consistent low end across all key changes.
It's not really a disadvantage, just something to be aware of if you're going for a certain sound - as described in the video. Yes compression helps, that's why almost any rock mix will slam the bass guitar with it, but you can also do things to help with this at the recording stage too. It's like a domino effect, the more thought you put into your recordings at the source, the better your end product will sound.
I knew it cuz I could hear it but never tested it. Thank you for giving me this affirmation :)
This is a lot more distinct on guitar, the same note on higher strings sound a lot thinner and cut through the mix more and lower strings sound muddier but blend in a lot more.
It depends on the context of the note, if it's meant to stand out play it on a higher string, if it's meant to be more consistent and less of a focus in the mix then play on the lower strings.
I used to cheat a bit by using individual strings that I found were more consistent tone wise than the recommended gauge. Weird set up but better sound overall.
Brilliant video, loving this deeper dive format thank you for making and sharing 🙌🏼🙏🏼
My pleasure!
did I hear wrong? 8th fret on the E string? that's a C not a D, D is on the 10th fret of E sting, standard tuning
Yeah I misspoke lol.
Tune to D standard. Compress hard. Use your E and A strings (now D and G) most of the time.
The thing about consistency here is that from another perspective kind of the other way around - you get more overtones with open strings/closer to the first fret relatively speaking and less as you go up - similar to how short scale guitars are slightly muted in some of the overtones(not that you'd know it with a Fender Jaguar!). High end can kind of disappear as you go up the string, which can make for a smoother, more rolled off effect(partly why Octave fuzzes work better from 12th fret up), giving you this smoother but less articulate sound. It's almost like the opposite of Key follow on on a keyboard and why cheap bass samples often don't sound quite right, you'd need to use a low pass filter. So it depends how "Jangly" you want your bass tone, like when you say that some people prefer the extra high end from playing harder.
I am curious though - is the Reverse-P meant to address this? It's kind of a subtle difference. I have one in my Ibanez bass and I was wondering if it was just messing up the classic P sound, but after watching this vid I can see why they did that - capturing more bass tones on the lower notes. But again, some people *prefer* the higher strings to be "leadier" so the classic P gives them more of an option to pop up into guitar range when they want - being slightly quieter is a sort of natural compression so you don't intrude too much in that frequency band.
Dig in and crank the amp
This most certainly is a feature rather than a problem. You can choose to play a note on a different string depending on the timbre that you want. It is not a requirement, or even a good idea, to play a note in a specific location in order to achieve a more even tonality. Dynamics in tone is a good thing if that is what you want.
Why would that not be a good idea if you're looking for more tonal and low end consistency? If you're looking for a very consistent sound, and even low end, sticking to one string makes a lot of sense. As I said in the video, it's very case specific, and it's a good trick to use if that is the sound you're looking for.
@@SugarpillProd I completely agree with your comment. My apologies if I misunderstood the point of your video. ✌🏻
@@MikeGuerr No problem at all 😊
Nice video! That's something I always struggle when playing live, a boomy low E string and not enough low end from the other strings. Any tips for live playing, since there's no plugins or post production in this scenario? Cheers!
Thanks! A compressor pedal would likely help you out a lot in a live situation. Some amps will have a built in one, but normally stand alone pedals will let you better dial in the sound you want. Depending on the situation, the house engineer might be running your bass through compression on their end too. The venue I do a bit of live sound work on the side for has compression on the desk, but it's pretty rudimentary - basically on or off, haha. So a pedal and picking consistency would likely be the most beneficial in your case. Hope that helps!
@@SugarpillProd Thanks!
Another thing you should try is lowering the pickup(s) on the E string side, tilting the pickup a bit, this creates distance from the string and lowers the volume/boomyness of the sound
@@Fernando-ry5qt Good tip! Gonna try it in the next practice. Thanks!
Interesting. A good bass player uses all strings to create dynamics with the bass sound like playing an open E and a E on 12th fret etc
For sure, though I'd argue that's adding more tonal variety, in the case of say going from the low E to the octave above. You wouldn't necessarily want a big dynamic shift on bass, as that'll sound strange in a mix, but tonally, something like that will add a lot of energy and colour to a part.
I wouldn't say that frequency responce anomalies are a 'problem'..more like possibilities within a fretboard.. i think it's more or less the same with all stringed instruments... 😅
It is the same with most stringed instruments. It's just the low end is more important on bass than say guitar, so at least being aware of that fact can help you out in situations like the one I described in the video.
Be a good bass player, basically. I'm always making little decisions about where to play a note when I have a few options, what octave to play in, what kind of string attack to use. But don't watch the waveform and not listen. Consistency doesn't necessarily make it more musical and may make it sound robotic. That alternating 5ths on one string you did worsened the groove to my ear.
Exactly! It's just about being aware of all these things really.
Your advice is priceless as always. ❤
I don’t really think this applies here, but i play double bass and on double bass you almost never play above the ab on the e string or f# on the string because the tone is bad. You also don’t want to play open strings for the same reason (except open A).
Haha yeah double bass is a totally different beast 🤣
I play almost everything on the e and a strings. So the d and g have very little dirt or wear. When I do play on them they're really bright.
If I play any bass but mine I don't know what all the notes sound like in the different locations
Harmonic content on higher frets is far less rich than on the first 5 frets and open strings, so constantly jumping across the neck you're actually adding more inconsistences in sound, while difference in lows between strings is easily fixed with compression (if there's one, with a good instrument+amp it can be almost nonexistent). There's a reason why pro session bassists don't usually play in high fret positions, unless needed, you sacrifice clarity and presence that way. Overall I'm not against playing on one string though, for a very simple rock bass line sure, but 90% of times I would prefer playing within first 5 frets on multiple strings.
Compression helps, and is generally why most bass tracks get smashed with it during a mix. But trying ideas like this at the source level can also make things sound that much better. It's like a domino effect, if you think all these things through at the start, a lot of this will come together more easily during the mix, and you'll have less problems to "fix" in that stage.
@@SugarpillProd I mean no disrespect, your video is very well produced, and it's a good topic. It's indeed important to think about tone at the source. But I find the videos title "The Problem With Bass Guitar" and it's presentation bit misleading. Imagine beginner bass player watching your video, and he comes to conclusion that he should construct his bass lines using only one thickest string, that's not how bass guitar is usually played ;)
I feel as though I made it pretty clear in the video that's it's very case specific, given I said this multiple times throughout, and literally said "I’m not suggesting to only ever play your bass lines on one single string". I can't really make it anymore clear than that, haha.
It's not really targeted at beginner bass players anyway, more so people who are looking to improve their sound from a recording / production standpoint, because many musicians never seem to make the connection from being a musician to learning the tricks of recording and mixing. So the idea is to bridge that gap, in a way.
If I had to theorise all the different ways people could misconstrue my advice, and then address every single one in each video, I'd never get anything done. It's kinda baffling the ways people can completely take what you say in the opposite direction - not talking about you here btw, just speaking from all my years here on UA-cam. But those are the joy of people watching 1/4 of a video and then giving their opinion I guess, haha.
Wouldn't you be able to "simply" set up your bass pickup at an angle to compensate ? This way, you'd be able to even out volume while keeping the distinctive tone of each string ?
Haven't tried it out, but it could be a solution if you feel like testing !
I think that could help! But I don't think there's any perfect position that'll mean every note will be as consistent as the next. There are a lot of little things you can do (as mentioned in the backend of the video) that will end up making a bigger difference overall. Though that idea could certainly be one of them!
I just compress the ever living shit out of it lol
This is the way.
that's cool but not really a problem on a 4 string bass, they sound different but it can be used as a tool. the real problem is when you get a 5 string bass. the B-string always sounds so fluffy and that's not what I want 😕
The same applies to literally any other instrument that has multiple strings and a neck or other means of adjusting the active length of stings like even a guzgeng or something. But it's painfully noticeable even on regular guitars and really anything.
String length, tension, and thickness will change the sound. If you achieve the same pitch using a different combination of these factors, you will get a different tone. And that is besides using a differently adjusted picking/plucking/thumping/etc. technique.
Also this is why bass guitars have longer necks and thicker strings than guitars. People think that it's to prevent floppy "overcooked spaghetti" as strings, but that's really not it, that's actually a happy coincidence, a side effect perk to the real original reason when bass amps and guitar amps were the same and weren't very powerful, and they needed to somehow make bass as audible as guitar in the context of a band. A short scale guitar could work well with bass tuning with strings less than half as thick as what you normally use on a bass. But a longer and thicker string is more metal that vibrates with a greater amplitude and generates a much more strong and loud signal. Think how Bass VI easily handles bass tunings, but it sounds much brighter and quieter, the signal is causing the speakers to move nearly as much air at all.
When you showed how the same note on a thinner string is less loud, it's literally that principle. If that thinner string was also same length (after pressing down to a fret, the actively vibrating part), the difference would be even greater.
Also if you wanna test these kidna things consider different types of strings in terms of when you get the same thickness of a string, but with a thick stiff core and fewer layers of wound around it, and with a thin soft core and more layers of wound around it, also you can see how it affects the stability of tuning and so on, how a stronger attack will make the latter fo sharp for a moment more easily.
The thing is, you will hear it very clearly in your bedroom, but on a record in a full mix this is going to be virtually inaudible. And that is assuming the mixing engineer isn't going to overlay your playing with his own when you don't see it, and/or with VST sims. Cause he's not gonna care about it being the honest representation of your performance, his job it to make it sound good. And especially bass and drums in records nowadays are at least blended with sims and samples and such, often to the point that they don't augument the real performance, but the performance arguments them... But they will never ever admit to you they did that with your tracks, it's gonna be their trade secret how they made your performance sounds that way in the full mix lol and that is of course besides the things you mentioned how there's compression and distortion added at many points in the signal chain that also masks all the little nuances to the point that there's this saying that e.g. in metal tonewood doesn't matter and so on.
Why do i keep clicking on your videos when their obvious they're all made for people who've only seen one in a store/at a friends house
I don't know what that means, but maybe just stop clicking on them if you don't like them?
this is actually great information. though i was thinking, isn't this something a compressor pedal can fix by evening out each frequencies that comes out? (excluding the variable of the right hand/left hand playing technique)
Yeah I did mention compression (and pedals) towards the backend of the video. It'll certainly help! Generally when mixing, you're likely to compress a ton of the bass signal to help remedy this. It's pretty common to split the bass signal out into the highs and lows, and then process these independently of one another.
But I see it like a domino effect of sorts. If you do things to help this issue in the recording stage, you'll make every other part of the process that much easier for yourself (or others that are working on your song).
0:08 is D not on the 10th fret of the E string
btw I've also felt the differences on guitar but more when I'm playing higher strings then move to a lower one and get a sudden influx of bass without touching any settings
Oops, yeah that's correct! My bad, haha. It's definitely a factor on guitar as well. You can apply this logic to both 😄
Bass is the correct instrument. Check mate guitarists. No problems
Plectrum=Heresy
Do you time-align your basslines? I did and someone told me it sounded like a synth bass 😅
If I'm playing it in myself, then no, I don't often time align any of my guitars or bass. Though I use MIDI basses a lot and those will be 100% on the grid. I think both ways are valid, it just depends on the kind of music you make. For me, as it's mostly punk & indie-related that I'm producing for others, there's a bit of wiggle room for things not being perfect. But if you were doing something like djent, then you'd likely want more precision. I'd just take it on a case by case basis, and think of what you want the end result to sound like, and then let that inform your editing decisions. Hope that helps!
@@SugarpillProd it does! thank you
I love that guitar arrange, show us more about it
Which bit are you referring to?
would you be able to do a comparison of a reverse P (mark hoppus style pickup arrangement) and a standard P pickup arrangement using both alnicos and quarter pounders? ive been following for such a long time and have both, and always wanted a second opinion because every time i bring up the tone differences i get looked at like im insane.
Honestly I'm not much of a gearhead myself, so I don't really mess about with any of the specs on my basses, more just a "plug in and play" type of person, haha. But that could be a cool idea. I've never had an issue with the standard p-bass configuration, then again I've never tried one with the reverse thing going on, so I wouldn't have much to compare it to.
Owned a reverse P (80s Yamaha bb series) it does make a not insignificant difference. I wouldn’t trust your EQ measurements because of this. The classic split p pickup has two halves at different places of the speaking length of the string. Also type and gauge of string can affect the low end and additionally your pickup height. In principle your ideas not wrong but their are too many variables you haven’t accounted for.
@RoloTonyBrown its mark hoppus' idea, not mine. The principal around this is that the slight change offsets the booming lows and tinny highs, rounding them out more. I think they sound alot more even with SD 1/4lbs, essentially copying marks setup, but I do agree it's a very small difference, I figured that this video would be relevant because of the subject matter lol
@RoloTonyBrown in this specific example, im suggesting if 2 identical bass were played side by side with the only difference in the two being the pickup being reversed and standard, how would that affect the tone? Thus, removing almost all variables saving for natural difference in the 2 different blanks of wood they were cut from
@@thiccnicc9835 I’m not talking about your suggestion but the actual video creator. I’m well aware how a reverse p works
Awesome content!
Appreciate it!
Problem or feature?
Depends on the context. In the case I was showing, I'd say it's more of a problem to be aware of.
isnt that what compression is for? jeez
It's a part of it (which I mentioned in the later portion of the video). But doing little things like this at the source will also make your life much easier in the mixing stage.
Just get a Dingwall.
Don’t get me wrong. I love my Fenders and my Music Mans. They are amazing instruments. Played and toured the shit out of them.
Got a Dingwall last Summer. Recorded everything with it. Hiphop, Pop, Metal. Every mixer was telling me that this is the easiest bass sound to work with they ever had.
Last weeks gig I tried to got back to the Precision, which I love.
Our engineer was telling me to get back to the Dingwall. 😂
That'll just be a cool 2k then 🤣
@@SugarpillProd here over in Europe more like 3k. 😬 but yeah. Sold some stuff for it I didn’t use.
Not the kind of money I'd ever throw at an instrument, but they do sound cool!
@@SugarpillProd totally get that. Especially since it’s just the made in china NG3. But it’s worth it. Most of my other basses are just collecting dust.
It solves the unevenness of the standard necks. Sure it’s not for everybody
sound guy discovers physics of string instruments lol
"there's an alternative ulster!"
no? just me?
surely thats what a compressor is for no?
4:36
this is great. Thank you!
No problem!
precious information
🙏
There are so many problems with this...
So, the bass guitar is technically a terrible instrument in general with so many issues!
But for short, there is about the same diference in the sound of playing with only one string and playing with 2 because you move up and down on the neck and the sound can get darker and out of tune as you go up the frets.
Literally not the point at all. You're reaching way too hard if that was your only take away. Of course there's going to be inconsistencies to every instrument, no manufacturer is ever going to be able to make a bass that sounds the exact same from note to note, because they're kinda bound by physics, haha. So this is just one of the many production tricks you can use, in a specific case to add more consistency to a bass line, should you so wish.
A lot of work goes into making basses sound the way they do on record that I'd assume a lot of people don't know about. If you actually listen to a bass in a mix, it really sounds nothing like a regular bass tone would. That's because there are multiple parts of the signal that all usually need manipulating in order for it to sit properly in a mix context.
Just think how 'bad' a double bass is! Verboten!
@@SugarpillProdthe thick strings start to suffer from enharmonics like a short scale bass above the 12th fret...
If you need more consistency in tone I feel your right hand, a compressor or flatwound strings are a stronger starting point.
@@PorchBass I agree with that! I was more so talking about below the 12th fret in general. Like in the chord progression example at 2:44.
Shortscale basses allegedly avoid this by giving more low end to all strings, and multiscale basses do a similar thing where the bottom strings get brighter. I personally think it's an interesting quirk to be worked around, not a problem. Lets you be intentional with note choices