Adventures with solderless 3D printed circuits + conductive filament
Вставка
- Опубліковано 6 тра 2020
- I had in my possession some X3D conductive ABS. The question begged: Could I create a 3D printed PCB that didn’t use a soldering iron? Yes! Well, sort of..
I certainly learned a lot making this video but the conductive filament isn’t quite up to the task, based on my experiences and those I reviewed of others.
This filament was supplied to me free of charge by my filament sponsor X3D. It was my choice to make the video and all opinions expressed are my own.
Purchase X3D conductive ABS filament: www.x3d.com.au/store/product/...
X3D conductive printing guide: www.x3d.com.au/blog/3d-printi...
Sparkfun ATtiny / Tiny AVR programmer hookup guide: learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/...
Purchase the Tiny AVR programmer: amzn.to/2SIki34
Purchase ATTINY85 microcontrollers: amzn.to/3b54sGk
Purchase Neopixel strips: amzn.to/2M1hI6h
My Arduino sketch as seen in this video: pastebin.com/tAuNiVem
Videos I referenced that are worth a watch:
Conductive 3D Printing Filament - Resistance/Power Test by GreatScott!: • Conductive 3D Printing...
Conductive filament - Can you 3D print electronics? by Datulab Tech: • Conductive filament - ...
3D Printed Projects - Working with Proto Pasta Conductive Filament! by DIY3DTech.com: • 3D Printed Projects - ...
Buy quality and affordable filament from X3D. Buy 3, get 1 free and a free sample pack with every order: www.x3d.com.au
Get Quality Resins from 3D Printers Online. 5% off storewide for Teaching Tech subscribers [Code: tech5]
3dprintersonline.com.au/
Take a look around and if you like what you see, please subscribe.
Support me on Patreon: / teachingtech
I’ve found it’s good for a stylus pen on iPhone. I made a video on it back in 2015. I also tried to make a circuit board but gave up as the surface conductivity is too low and overall conductivity is way to inconsistent for circuits. You’ve just confirmed the technology hasn’t advanced one bit.
theoretically could it be used to make a touch lamp? I have an idea but I don't have any of this kind of thing, so I can't test it out
Sound more like resistive filament than conductive filament.
XD
It is the nature of trying to make plastic flow electricity. It's a miracle manufacturers can make it work this well at all.
Since this filament is conductive, you may be able to electroplate bright copper on to it.....there are some cheap kits with anode and solution available on eBay.
Do you know what is resistive filament? this one :) 3DXSTAT™ ESD-Safe PETG 3D FILAMENT
( Target surface resistance: 10^7 to 10^9 Ohm.)
It's the same thing, just a semantic change. Things that conduct have resistance. Things that have some resistance do conduct. They are the reciprocal of one another.
I'd love to see a 3d printer build off between you, Angus, Joel, Tom, Stefan, Chris's Basement Chuck H, etc.. Everyone gets $1000 to build the "Best" printer they can from whatever they want. Then put them to the test of materials, tolerance, speed, quality etc...
I would love that too, that would be so cool.
This is an amazing idea, kinda like the Scrapyard Wars of 3d printing. Count me in as a viewer.
This is the content we need!
...and they have to build it by knitting it together with wool.
Interesting idea, but what is the definition of best? Is largest print volume best? Is fastest printing best? Is highest temperature printing best? Is ease of use best? Is best mechanical design best?
Brilliant Job Michael. Based on this we will change the description of the filament to resistance filament rather than conductive. Thanks - X3D Team
Conductance is the reciprocal to resistance:
1/C = R
1/R = C
i don't know if there will be much difference in the sense of using different wording. But again, I don't know anything about sales.
Do you ship in in Europe?
Thank you for showing us the full experiment even if the results were unfavorable!
Just watched this video over a year after its release and was very surprised to find myself mentioned. Most people don't even give credit when they straight up copy you, but you even give credit to your research! Cheers.
Fun fact: Any thing you print with that filament will become a pencil. Try writing with it!
As always Michael a very thorough well presented video! Thank you for taking the time to do these for us to learn from!
Thanks for running this experiment! Very informative!
This video is hilarious and rekindles lulz of the original goals of the reprap project. Thanks! :)
Awesome, thank you for your testing and provided information.
As always, great content and a pleasure to watch video.
I really appreciate showing how the sausage is made. Seeing the failed experiments is highly elucidating.
You did some great testing, awesome work.
Thanks for this, I've been very curious about this type of filament!
Interesting. I just started 3D printing and I am already hooked. I fear it is a rabbit hole I will never get out of.
That happened to me 😂😂
Passed 150k subs, Micheal! Well done,mate. 🤘
Super neat video!
Great work! And a nice solution for simpler designs.
I see what you did there... Turning failure into success. Clever
This can be used as a signal circuit for something like a maze toy or an interactive puzzle.
Great idea
Great Video,
In my arsenal I have
QidiPrint Xmax
Snapmaker A350
Kobra 2 Max
I will be starting my adventure with conductive PLA, I will be using it as a ground bus printed into a retrofit housing for a display.
I'm glad you saved me some grief with this video.
Dude! You're awesome. Thank you
I always admire people who have technical skills as fine as you do. This is kind of what tech companies like Nano Dimension are slowly but surely achieving on an industrial scale, isn't it?
awesome idea! i would love to see more tests of conductive 3d filaments!!
In the 1980's we were injection moulding conductive polymers for wing mirror heaters in cars.
One of the things I've been meaning to look at with conductive filament is hooking it up to the capacitive touch pins on the ESP32 and making prints with touch buttons.
Well done video and extremely informative!! Thank you! I dare not say that conductive filament will not evolve but for now, it appears a CNC of a solid PCP board is the bast way to go for now. However, the use of actual wire is very intriguing.
Thanks for testing this - I don't need to waste mybtime with this topic, at least for now ;)
Yesterday I made some Tests with printing pure solder with my Ender 3. And it kinda worked!!!
I mean I was able to print the first layer, but then my bowden tube filled with fluid solder...
Of course I used an old hotend for these Tests.
Im future I will experiment with different fanspeeds or even different fans to get the solder perfectly timed and being able to print multiple layers.
I think it would be cool to simply 3d print conductive materials
Edit: And of course I dont recommend to try this yourself, because you will probably ruin your hotend or even the whole printer
@Stereo Rainbow yes I think with an all metal hotend it should work
I was able to print lines and even some curves but sadly no areas, because the solder flew together and it became a mess.
But when You think about it it should be possible to print some PCBs or even some Basic eldctric devices like a Flashlight. With a Dual Extruder you could start by printing the framd, then print the eldctric wirimg with solder and the adding a LED and a battery. This would be so cool
You should have tried the LED without the resistor, since the filament itself has so much resistance.
Conductive filament is necessary to 3D print motors and generators amongst other things, so we'll need to develop better filaments in the future. But I have little faith in FDMs/V6s ability to print conductive materials. Maybe when tool changers come around someone will make a specialty ferromagnetic/conductive filament hotend that's able to get lower resistance, but doing it out of a v6 style hotend just isn't going to happen.
A toolchanger could have a soldering head, dispensing solder paste and heating it up. Or even use a laser for that purpose. Such things probably already exist somewhere.... Easier would be a plotter with conductive ink, which is slightly better than the conductive filament.
I shorted the leads of the resistor for the first test, made little difference. Too much resistance in the other components.
Tool changers are exciting, let's see where this technology is in five years.
Yes, I also have tried ferromagnetic filament, in hopes it would be useful for making motors, inductors, transformers, speaker magnets etc. Nope, the magnetic conductivity (permittivity) is very poor, not useful at all.
This filament might still be useful for something like embedding a capacitive sensor buttons. Though the conductivity is so poor i'm afraid it won't be useful even for that.
Don't forget, that we also need an extruder for redstone.
great video. when i watch you its like im doing engineering and experimenting. not just some dumb review
When I got some conductive filament it was described as being used to get rid of static electricity. For example it would be used for a housing for the electronics because sometimes plastics can hold a static charge
It works if you don't use it. Love it!
What I would try is to print very narrow channels to end points between components. So sort of like printing wires.
This might be best using a two-nozzle printer so the other one can print the non-conductive base and the other fills the channels with conductive substance.
Excellent video!
Oh well, I think there could be a future for this, but more in the way of 3D Printed copper or other materials that are higher conductive. I really like this idea, Printing your own PCB
I hadn't done this on my channel yet, but I saw similar results in my testing.
While I do recognize the potential the filament has when used "raw", I "suspect" (actually, I know for sure) that it's best suited for electroplating, which is an inexpensive way to give the best results in a matter of minutes.
You should try it out, it won't disappoint you.
brilliant!
With that kind of resistance no future ... for now. Great review 👍
Until I saw that the conductive filament really won't work, I was going to recommend trying conductive epoxy instead of the screw terminals. I was really hoping this was going to work. Oh well, thanks for trying.
you could pour the conductive epoxy into printed groves.
One use I found for conductive filament is making a stylus handle. You can get replacement tablet stylus tips of various shapes and print out a handle that is the exact size and shape you want. I created a pistol-grip right-angle handle to help someone with a movement disability use a phone or tablet easier as they had difficulty hitting icons with a finger. This doesn't work with normal filament as the touch screens need something conductive to work with.
Me: 1:30-Hmm conductive filament that you were able to make use of, interesting. 5-Okay what next, 11:50, okay so what did u do next?
12:40: Michael: Scrap everything just use wires
o_O
I like the idea of using the 3d printer to make canals and using wire, that would be a nice way to learn pcb design when you are starting out.
That stuff has so much resistance that you probably could've poured tap water in the base troughs and it would've worked better. lol
Where did you get that food dehydrator from Michael? I'm looking for something like that in Australia.
I was thinking in terms of ergonomic keyboards with concave key wells. I was disappointed with your results with the filament, but the idea of structurally-supported circuitry is terrific! Especially if your “wiring” is all just cut sheet metal, designed with all the right slots and joined maybe with solder. You'd have to make sure to engineer the *assembly* process, not just the finished product, but anything better than the rat's nest you usually get with boardless keyboards would be a success.
Would be interesting to see how well this works when connected to a touch sensor input of an esp32 or capacitive touch sensor breakout boards, detecting when someone touches 3D printed objects.
Man, this Video saved me
I wanted to build a lamp with some LEDs, but a simple 3D printed frame and a wire wouldn't Work because i needed a stiff Connection without flexible wires, so my plan was to take a length of copper and embed it in epoxy
This is way easier
Makeing channels for wires is actually an awesome Idea. Could even make that 2 Layers.
Hey man. Liking the vid. Just a tip for measuring low resistances: get some sort of vaping mod, they’re used to measuring low resistances with high precision from 0.08 to about 2 Ohms.
Thank you for giving a honest review, I was about to spend good money and try this out, but it seems problematic even in 2023
I've been wondering about using a 3D printer to apply an etch-resist layer on a copper-clad board. I don't think it would have the resolution of a photoetched board, but it might be cheaper and easier, all things considered.
I guess it's true; resistance is futile.. Interesting video!
I don't know much about electronics at all. I have found 1 use for this. If I want to split 1 wire into several like-size wires, I can make a board with a bunch of holes in it for a bunch of screw terminals. Much cleaner look than a bunch of wiring.
Also while it might be brittle, I have used PLA+ to protect it.
Haven't tested the item out to see how durable it is but it definitely works. If they could make a slightly flexible version of this it could be more useful.
I've printed buttons to simulate physical gamepad for emulators running on Android phone and they worked. At the bottom I used cut off bits of cheap stylus pens and the top was conductive ABS supported with springs.
Could you 3d print the board, laying out grooves instead of conductive fil, and then add the solder the board afterwards?
You can achieve better results by embossing your circuit in your design. After your print is done you simply smear graphite powder (lock dry lubricant) on the embossment then iron it with some baking paper in between. This way the graphite will be embedded in the embossment.
I have not been able to try this experiment yet with the conductive filament that I have but I wonder if you can copper plate the 3D filament after printing? There are many youtube videos that show how to copperplate and the materials are readily available.
Nice idea, I will investigate.
I did some tests with the conductive filament and yeah ... it has really high resistance.
Filament i used is the protopasta PLA, printed using the ultimaker.
I find that the patterns of the print does affect it's conductivity, Lines "zigzag" patterns on normal fills VS concentric infill pattern. With the concentric pattern, you can achieve a long continuous printed line from one point to the other, hence making the conductivity better
Also, with another test, i did heat up the print using a heat gun, and the resistance lowered as more of the printed plastic melted together
(Kilo-ohms to about 200-500 ohms) but the shape does deform/shrink
Some things that i did not test, but would like to, is to test if ironing helps with lowering the resistance, and that if there was a setting for ironing at each layer of the print, to try and fuse the plastic together.
From research from 3d printing using jetting, the conductivity of the Z direction will be worse than the XY direction. I think this is true with FDM as well, as the layers cool and would not form as good of a bond.
Michael could you use a dual extruded to try printing something more traditional to a PCB? Thanks for the video! Really enjoyed it!
Hello Mike, what do you think,can you copper plate a 3d printed part with this filament ?
I was thinking of copper plating a 3d printed part but with conductive ink
I like the out of the box concept thinking of the final design. I don't think the conductive filaments will ever work, but the idea of 3D printing with regular filaments to make a PCB instead and using wires as traces sounds like an option for some simple design tests when a breadboard is not wanted.
another great video. you may want to try using silver epoxy glue which is conductive. commonly used to fix things where an iron wouldn't work like a car window defroster.
yahhs! yo your studio looks like a rnd shop.. you have good ventilation i hope.. my father died from prolonged exposure to chemical fumes.. i see all your printers and immediately my head goes to.. "god i hope he vents" often to late to little the impact of industrial waste has on people. cheers/.
What about dual extrusion where PLA is your base and the conductive filament is the traces?
I think an applications for this filament is where you need a mechanical part to be conductive. for example you could make an endstop where there is a conducive 3d printed piece on a moving part and when it comes in contact with two other conductive 3d printed parts it completes a circuit.
Can't wait for that consumer grade conductive, printable graphene. Great workaround in the mean time. :)
Me too :)
I would like to know how this changes using a dual extruder and printing very thin lines of conductive filament in the surrounding normal filament
Also there is a 3d printer which feeds out threads of kevlar or carbon fiber under the PLA as it comes out of the nozzle and cuts it at the end. So using copper wire instead of kevlar threads makes 3d printed wires glued into any shape held together with the PLA. And therefore able to create wire crossings or multi layer boards....
Hi...kow did you geen color lcd stock display? It is hardcto mod?
Who needs a current limiting resistor when you have this stuff
Could I print the flat radial disc for a potentiometer for a wiper to ride on?
" let me show you how it 'mostly' works " brilliant, i'm still laughing.
Ha ha When he said that I repeated it back to myself 😁
I wonder if you used less conductive material would it work better since it has a high internal resistance. If you say printed a flat base out of regular filament with screw holes and printed the conductive filament on top of it as if it were the copper lines in a normal pcb. Would it work?
Hi, next time you measure relatively small resistances you might want to look into the four-wire-measurement-method. By just checking your resistance-meter you are mainly measuring the resistance of the test leads. But great video as always.
Thank you, I will check it out.
Time to geek out
I read some research that recently came out that was using copper nanowires embedded in filament which was approximately 100 times more conductive than most carbon based conductive filaments. Only problem for the moment is it was using PCL and melts/degrades at quite low temperatures around 90 degrees I think so definitely still a work in progress but could be promising for this sort of thing.
I would be very curious to know what commercial or novel use cases conductive filament is good for. I understand the POC here but aside from wanting to try this out is anyone at all aware of this being used to produce anything? I would love to see more projects that use it. Thanks again Michael another great video.
See my post above
Until you can print with very low resistance and narrow trace width at a reasonable price point, this is just a nerd thing. As an engineer, I'm glad I saw this before I bother trying it.
I wonder if this is a situation where a modified inkjet printer would be more suitable.
I know there are methods for creating printed circuits that essentially amount to printing with non-standard inks. There's even examples of building the equivalent of integrated circuits this way, which would be amazing if it could be done at relatively low cost (even if those circuits are pretty underpowered compared to standard silicon)
of course, printers suitable to modifications like this are hard to come by.
And you'd need conductive ink and probably a lot of functional testing to ensure the ink is thick enough to conduct reliably.
Of course, if you can get conductive ink + N and P type semiconducting ink, plus some kind of insulator layer that can be printed on top... you could do some seriously amazing things with it...
Now THAT is a project I guess. Build a hobby grade integrated circuit printer...
Gotta love that politician's smile at the end! 😏
Is the resistance high due to material interface or length of material used?
Dual input extruder would be interesting to mix a metal containing filament with this one at various percentages for different properties. Brittleness of material is less of a concern if able to print it inside a non-conductive material.
How well would this filament work in electroplating?
Thx for testing this out! But i think i'll stick with PCB's from JLCPCB..
There is an easy way to measure resistance in the milli ohm scale, it's called the 4 wire kelvin test. You just put some current trough the conductor and measure it, then measure the voltage across the conductor. Then you can calculate by ohm's law what the resistance is with extreme precision. R=U/I resistance=voltage/current
have you tried printing it out of a dual extruder printer. I used proto pasta, and it was fine by itself, but when I used it with another abs, it would always clog up.
So, I absolutely do love the idea of trying to come up with alternatives for creating circuits for people who may not even have a soldering iron. However, coming up with a solution requiring a 3D printer feels just a little cart before horse 😅 not to say it's impossible, but I struggle to think of a circumstance in which someone could find easy access to a 3D printer, but would be incapable of obtaining a soldering iron
Can we use solder as filament with the high temp hotend? We should be able to control liquid solder and push it through nozzle onto PCB. Or even print 3D model with solder metal instead of plastic.
Thanks for sharing- I'm interested to know how well it electroplates. The best conductive paints are expensive, silver based, and use really nasty solvents.
If you wanted to do this, with the tech available to us, lost-PLA casting of bus bars would be more effective than trying to use conductive filament directly.
At the point where it measured 100k ohms it is game over for most applications. Instead of this carbon strand filament one could try to 3d print the soldering wire from the roll (1:13) directly on a piece of cloth or wood? The melting point is well in range at least. And the caps for the video would be "How to turn your Ender 3 into a soldering station" ;-)
How do find the time to perform all these experiments and make so many videos?
Still waiting on my MakerGeeks conductive filament from last year. Fingers crossed.
I have always wondered if the etching mask could not be 3D-printed on to the copper side before etching? The resolution of the printer should result in a pretty good PCB if the filament holds up to the etching process.
If you have enough filament left, have you tried to see if you can copper plate the parts to make them conductive ? There is a 'High Quality (and Safe) Copper Plating' instructable that goes over a simple method. I would 'hope' that this is conductive enough to plate.
Can you do an episode on the conductive abs for copper plating? That would be very interesting! Make everything metallic! =D
with this stuff you could create components like 3d printed variable resistors :), enclosures that have build in touch sensors for example...also quite interesting to know if stress on the material would have any electrical changes...
Great idea, perhaps I'll follow up in future.
I've been reading comments trying to find this suggestion.
I think conductive filament could make some interesting sensors.
You could have a bunch of separate patches on a robot and monitor these patches to see where the robot contacts other objects.
Can you please list the prints you have and where to get them
thanks
I have a Prusa Mr3s
Signals that are on the order of single-digit microamps, and certainly nanoamps, could easily be printed that way as a single thin line-thickness dependent on the distance-however the power-hungry peripherals would require a different kind of handling; maybe metallic plating, as somebody here suggested, or some other solution.
It seems that 3D printing is not suitable for making decent PCBs. But they should be ideal for larger conductive elements like those used in motors. Good video.
Hi, I also see GRAPHENE filament in stores, as thishas much higher conduction, that would be a good kandidate? Have you got experience with that? (or anybody else?) thank you for the great videos!