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I’ve never tried using milestone, I’ve always run XP, and split it between the party, not individual players, but I don’t just give it for murder, I also give it for finding hidden magic items, role playing out tough situations, and personal character achievements. Usually more, for RP stuff cause it is harder to convince an enemy to stand down than take them out. For quite a lot of encounters with intelligent enemies I have two XP charts, one for killing and one for sparing/talking. For example I have an encounter coming up with a Hag, the players have been tasked to kill them but they can also talk and convince her to leave the town alone, either outcome gets XP.
I'm cool with milestone. Seeing numbers go up, (such as xp) is not the reason I play the game. Roleplaying is! (I do like to see gold going up thoguh.)
I currently run two groups, in one, they use xp because they love the idea of seeing themselves get stronger, and they’re always jumping at the bit whenever a session ends because they want to see how much they’ve grown that session (this group is 4 players who are running what is their 1st ever campaign). The other group is much more veteran players, and when one of them asked all the group quickly and unanimously agreed that they all prefer milestone. One of them even citing the fact it’s easier for the dm to keep track (this group consists of 8 players, and they all are older players). So I think that the longer a person has played, the more they prefer milestone.
The Objective Bottles I'm one of those XP leveling up GMs. Monsters, Skills and Good Ideas are my main source of XP rewarding. Also, before each session, I give a bottle to each player. Inside is a rolled up note with objectives to earn extra XP. Can be anything from "Arm wrestle an NPC" (25 XP), "Tell a joke" (10 XP per player laughing), "Insult an enemy before attacking" (50 XP). I change the challenges inside to match each session and players. The wizard might get "Use Burning Hands once on a group of enemies" (10 XP per victim) I will see creativity come from the player trying to get as many kobolds rounded up in group before igniting them all. Barbarian could get "After Battle dance in the blood of your enemies" (50 XP) The player gets out of his/her chair and does a quick jig. We all cheer and laugh. Breaks tension and makes memories. Also the players have to keep their challenges a secret (Until the end of the game) or they forfeit the XP. (Players are aloud to guess but never tell) Yes this method is even more work, but I find it a way to get the murder hobos to roleplay, get the quiet ones to engage, and to encourage everyone to think outside the box. Lastly, I try my best not to use these challenges to Railroad players or the game. Only to encourage, enhance and give them other options than the usual pace.
That sounds like a lot of fun. Couldn’t something similar be accomplished by giving the players other small rewards like inspiration? In fact, that’s what inspiration is for, but more concrete goals makes it easier to remember.
@@mrmaat I feel like inspiration is rarely given out because as a DM, having the ability to make any roll at advantages can be game breaking if the whole team is constantly getting them(especially because everyone saves them for the BBEG or when they have to make a saving throw on something they rightly should be afraid of). This breaks down the tension of big fights imo. It seems like those that like XP based leveling are often those that encourage/push you to roleplay. Hell, my first introduction to D&D was on roll 20 and joining a 2nd Edition group where we only got XP based on how good/well we interacted with our characters(so we wouldnt just murder hobo everyone). This was gauged based on the players ability to roleplay and was merely to prevent John Doe from just playing on his phone while waiting for his turn in combat/ phoning it in. It really stretched me to think "how would my character react to this?" rather than just playing through a campaign from a 3rd party perspective. I feel like milestone leveling (especially the new books/AL groups) tends to have players that are not focused on roleplaying but almost entirely focused on the objectives necessary to complete a task/adventure (this is just what i have found to be true in my 2 years of playing 5E). I fee like at the end of the day, we are creatures that love achieving goals and more often than not, would not nearly roleplay as much if their was no reward (not because we dont want to roleplay, but because we often get caught up in other things). Having objectives/incentives to roleplay encourages players to actually stretch themselves and play their character as an actual character. Sure, there are veterans that dont need those things, but I find that D&D becoming mainstream has definitely resulted in less roleplaying and more "point and click adventure" but with rolling. Homebrews might be an entirely different thing though. I only play Adventurers League at a comic book store, so to each his own.
@@JD-mh8be He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.
@@KageRyuu6 Play the stupid Straud campaign, and you'll become a murder hobo, especially if the DM allows no place for respite in the campaign. My character's brutality soon matched my own level of frustration in the game. I was literally looking forward to oblivion a Suicide Squad style foray into the Amber Temple.
I do the same thing with my group. Milestone xp rewards players for solving problems, not just being murder hobos. If my players can bring a villain to justice without shedding a drop of blood, I am not going to penalize them for being creative. Likewise, if my players circumvent a difficult social encounter by assassinating the single npc that made it difficult, I am not going to penalize them for that either. Milestone xp offers rewards for both, without penalizing player choice.
I use XP, Because my players like it, In return my players don't question any amount I tell them, If I say a Lich gives 69 XP because they give 23XP per level, They'll accept it as fact and move on.
I use experience point leveling dolled out in a milestone format. I give my players all of their experience at once after they finish a mission. When they complete whatever it was they were doing, I will read off their accomplishments and tell them how much experience they get from it. This way they still get the thrill of getting exp, and know that not all of it came from killing creatures. This lets them get closer to a level without leveling up. With milestone leveling either they level or they don't, that's in terms of experience rewards. This also lets them get extra experience for things I wasn't planning for. Doing it all at once lets me not have to worry about them leveling up quest.
@@tattoorocker did it work well for your group? Our setup is more conducive to this since our sessions are only about 75 minutes each. I also think it makes sense, because it means the characters have to take some time after an event to reflect and grow from it.
Xp leveling has one advantage: you can choose whether you want to use milestone leveling whenever you want (for example “this dragon is worth however much xp you need for level 6”)
XP for all progress. Killing, knocking out, stealthing past, social encounters, nonviolent resolutions, role playing and the whole party shares XP. And I gave it collectively at the end of each session.
yup, which a little on top for creative solutions/going the extra mile to act like "normal people" (normal being relative to what are fantasy world mercs/bountyhunters/tomb robbers, but hey)
not at all... if thats your only reasoning for going milestones... then your DM has been very badly distributing XP. Jealous players... sorry but getting less XP then others would push me to understand that "I AM" doing something wrong ad must up my game. this is what hapenned in my campaign right now. one of the player started to ask me, why he got less XP then others, and i was like, you stand in your corner and just wait for others to take the decisions. you also don't much participate in conversations with others. i wanted you to understand that this game encourages people who actively play the game. not that you didn't have your moments, i loved your moments. but... they are too few and wide. the player was like "oh" low and behold today that player is one of the greatest at my table, to the point where i decided to remove individual XP and go back to group XP. you also have to understand that it was always group XP to begin with, i don't know why people would stop giving XP to those who were not there. the reality was that experience points were always distributed and split "evenly" among the group. never should a player get more XP then another. XP also encourage players not to miss a session. which milestones don't since they also know they will level up by missing games. if a player gives me a good reason for missing out a game, like "Work called" its fine, i'll imagine what your character do while the group go forward and i award XP for that too. but if you tell me, i just don't wanna play today. i'm like ok, stay home if thats what you want. but that only means to me that you are not dedicated to the game and thats a no no for me. keeping players together is also something that removes some of the fun of the game. i would preffer, anyday, play a lower level character then the others because its more fun to see how i will survive the encounters they do. the problem is that players loves power, and leveling up is power. they expect the world to be easier as they level up. there is no other reasons for leveling up in the game. but with leveling up comes less chance of dieing, less chance of dieing comes the feeling of being a god. is that really what you want your players to feel as they level up ? feeling like the game has become easier and dieing is now an impossibility ? i beg to differ and preffer to stay lower level and see the challenges of fighting monsters for what they are. its easy for a fighter hitting a tarrasque on the toe if he deals 100+ damage every rounds. while fighting a tarrasque on his toe doing next to nothing damage wise will feel titanesque a task ! players would preffer to find other methods instead of just straight on fighting it.
@@dndbasement2370 Not everyone wants to play in or run a game where the players compete amongst each other. It's an old-school mentality that is increasingly going out of style. And there is a very important distinction of doing something "wrong" and doing what the DM doesn't like or cares about.
@@Serutans where did i ever talked about pvp ? i hate PVP as it break gameplay. but think about it, if you need mechanics to enforce cooperation, then you already have a lot of problems in your games man. the only thing i hate about milestones is the fact that players do not have any feels of accomplishment until the DM decides so and that sucks. to me thats why i preffer XP. bit more work on my part, but at least my players knows how much they accomplished each games.
In my group, I sorta use "arc" leveling. If the campaign is a story, I try to fit in levelups where they would make the most sense from a narrative standpoint. This is similar to milestones, but imo its more fluid. I don't have benchmarks necessarily for overcoming specific badguys or challenges. I tend to run pretty open world games - I certainly have things going on in the world around the PCs but ultimately I let them choose their own path. ie If they ignore the Giant threat marching across the plains but they manage to save the coastal village from Sahaugin, they might have completed a story arc.
We use a weird combo that we get normal exp for beating ceatures/solving problems but if we beat someone we had to, completed a job or what not we get milestone exp.
Very important clarification: In the case where DM gives XP for RP, the DM doesn't give more XP to players who roleplay better, the DM gives more XP to players who roleplay more along the lines of what the DM likes/wants. No DM is a cosmic arbitrator of what consists of as "better". By doing XP for RP, you bend the behavior of players to your tastes as the DM.
@@Lobsterwithinternet I think you might have misunderstood my tone. By no means I intended that to be taken as a good thing. It's a DM indirectly shifting the way players roleplay their character. It's a controlling behavior and I would never play in a game where the DM does this. The most common example is the DM who loves funny characters and is completely meh about serious ones. Whether it's XP or just Inspiration, the whole tone of the game gets shifted - and not in a healthy way but to an extreme. People who do this in their games are the munchkins of the roleplaying side of rpgs.
I use XP, but keep the players at the same amount. I find that when we used milestones it encouraged an annoying "do we level up now?" trend that I had to deal with after every combat. Running with XP means the players also have a concrete way of knowing how close they are to the next level up. Milestones can also leave combat more disappointing, depending on the mindset of the players. In some cases, players expect to be gaining something after every combat, but not every foe or threat is holding anything of worth. I'm working on implementing more harvesting rules, but XP does at least give you a satisfying reward to give your players after every combat.
Easy solution: you literally cannot "level up" in the middle of the dungeon. You need to spend time outside the dungeon to actually level up. Fighters spend time fighting, maybe gaining new proficiency in a weapon or other skill. Thieves practice their skills in the guild, Clerics and monks spend their time in meditation, magic users learn spells, literally. It might take a week in game time, or two weeks, something like that. And would generally take place in town. They might gain moor than a single level, but leveling always happens during downtime.
I've dealt with the same issue, but it doesn't bother me much. Sure, it can be slightly annoying to be asked every session, but also sometimes it helps me because I realize I haven't leveled them up for a long time. A "milestone solution" though could be to ask the players what they did that earned them the level up.If you are level 10, smashing a goblin patrol doesn't get you a level. But if the players say "but we smashed dozens of patrols, blinding the hobgoblin army's scouts and forcing them to retreat, saving the countryside".. yeah, diverting an entire army could earn you a level. Though, I know imagine the small grin and the "hmm, that's what you think happened" as the DM walks away cackling, to tell the players that part of the reason they haven't leveled is that the challenge isn't over yet
There is one advantage that XP has over milestone and this is mostly for newer DMs. XP shows you exactly when your players will level up, I've seen a lot of DMs just never level up the party for months on end when the player's should have leveled up by now, and this is even in the lower tiers of play. So awarding XP for roleplay, fighting and all of that is good for new DMs because it gets rid of the whole never leveling up pit fall milestone tends to have.
Good point. My buddy Jon was telling me a bout a DM he had and they only got XP once a YEAR. So they basically spent years at level one (because people would die and then start over). It was horrible. Not exactly the same as what you're saying, but not knowing when to give out milestones could be troublesome for new DMs.
I understand what you mean but I feel the opposite - with XP you can't predict (unless you do a shitload of math and guessing) when the players will level up. I don't want that to be in the middle of the dungeon where it might trivialize the rest of it.
I'm a newer DM. I've been using milestone leveling as the module request and If i do a homebrew campaign I would just use there system of leveling where the amounts of quest need to level up increases every couple of levels ie. 1 quest per level upto 3rd level then 2-3 quest per level. so on and so forth but in addition to that I would award a level for personal story progression. like getting revenge on the lord of the land that sent your family to the gallows unjustly.
Ye I feel that, but honestly while starting out I was more or less confused about the XP system tried using it and failed so then I started using milestone and I believe everyone had a better time. I mean I convinced everyone else who DMs to switch to milestone through my games.
I use XP because I don't know when to level up otherwise. Next campaign I have an idea of when to level up my players, but I want that they are deciding then what to use at session 0
I run an "adventure of the week" sort of campaign where there is an ongoing world and story, but each weekly session is its own self-contained mission that players are free to sign up for or skip (I find it's a good way of staying flexible with people's schedules while still having regular sessions). For that reason, I've started using a sort of hybrid leveling system where there is no xp, you just level based on number of sessions played. Keeps the math simple: either you came and played or you didn't. It doesn't reward or punish any style of gameplay, all it rewards is attendance.
XP levelling is good for keeping track and I have to disagree that it encourages killing. You can tell your players before hand that XP is awarded if you either kill enemies, force them to surrender or incapacitate them. This way players will know that killing isn’t the only way to get XP. Award them experience if they manage to talk to enemies out of combat or pulling them into traps where the enemy is stunned or put to sleep etc etc. The way I do it is, if the enemy is no longer willing or unable to fight the PCs then they get XP. Also you don’t have to give more XP for things like good Roleplay or accomplishing objectives. You can reward those player with inspiration points. You’re the DM, you aren’t forced to give anyone extra anything. Especially XP. You can reward them in other ways, and always balance XP rewards.
Exactly! And you can also award XP for accomplishing certain goals, regardless of how the pcs go about it. Like finding where the villain's hideout is, some players might decide to talk to the npcs and roleplay until they find that information, some might use investigation checks at key locations to gather clues and figure where they lead, while others might catch one of their minions and -torture- intimidate them into spilling the beans. The difference from doing that and milestone is that it's waaaay more satisfying and it doesn't make your players go "do we level up now?" every encounter.
I agree. If you're willing to put in all of the extra work to create additional things that you can reward XP for and use it to encourage things like roleplaying and not killing people then it can be a very successful system. If I had more time and inclination I might be more tempted to go back to XP. In the meantime Milestone is beautiful.
"How many groups of players do you know that knock bad guys out and turn them over to the authorities?" *Raises hand* "Ooh, ooh! That's 90% of my characters and also the group I DM for!" "Yeah, that's what I thought!" Me: = ( I personally use a hybrid system while DMing. We get XP for resolving encounters one way or another (Kill/KO/sneak past/etc.). If the players stick more to the sneaking/RP side, the XP is awarded later to cut down on interruptions. If the players are really close to leveling up and finish an important arc, they may just get the level as a bonus. Quest XP is also a thing to give incentive to more RP. Depending on the situation, they either just get a chunk of XP or even the rest of their level (depends on the quest/how close to a level they are). This method has always worked well. The players have never gone "murder hobo" (no human-like races have ever even been killed by my PCs, honestly) and they feel that no playstyle is punished. Since quest XP is a thing, even non-combat solutions will yield growth in the end. I feel that this solution offers the best combination for us. RP is rewarded since choosing to avoid combat or KO if forced to fight is not penalised. In addition, we still have the chance to level up mid-mission (which is fun) while also knowing that big enough quests may grant a level too. Edit: Forgot to mention that I "level-sync" and keep XP the same, as mentioned in the video. I don't do that whole "you get more XP because you are the rogue and do more stuff" crap.
I finally got around to watching this. My take: a major purpose of having rules in an rpg is to strip away "DM Fiat", in other words give the players more rights and free agency. The psychological advantage of XP leveling is it puts ownership and control of things in the hands of players. It's not just "we level up when the DM arbitrarily decides or whatever, I dunno". The way to make milestone leveling work is just what was described in this video- tell the players what the milestone is. Make it as objective and factual as adding numbers. That's the key to making it feel fair and legitimate.
Milestones need to be treated like very specific requirements for example: The party of first level characters will all be elevated to 3rd level if they rescue 90% or more of the kidnapped family members. They will only be elevated to 2nd level if they rescue 26% to 89% of the family members. They will stay at 1st level if they rescue less than 25% of the family members. You do not care how they accomplish the objective hence no railroading. Also you can have 5 to 10 smaller (think job board) successfully completed quests perhaps equal a single level gain at tier 1, 10 to 20 smaller quests at tier 2, 20 to 40 smaller quests at tier three, etc.
Adam Fairbairn I think that’s called a quest point system which is kind of a combination of XP and milestones, completing quests and arcs creates quest points which you then use to level up. You can still have certain criteria award more or less allowing for some DM agency but completing quests will always award quest points (unless the task is so trivial that it should award no experience, think 19th level party doing tons of level 1 stuff just to grind that last level since that would be pretty boring).
So much this! I played with this DM who was milestoning, and after a year of games (every 2 weeks) we were only level 3. I eventually left that group and joined another (at the same game store), who were also playing every two weeks and started about the same time as us and they were level 6-7 (they were xp leveling). I once pointed that out to the first DM who answered by saying it's because he didn't like dealing with higher-level characters because things become too easy, not challenging enough. Let's just say I pretty much despise milestone now!!! But that could very well be from personal experience!
I know this counters the “keep them from wondering” mentality, but I like XP leveling because it frees my players up to do what they want. I like running fairly open campaigns, and I want my players to get interested in side hooks, exploring the world and helping locals, and I have a hard time quantifying their progress with milestone leveling. I can say that they level up once they make it to the next part in the main quest they have, but that urges them to not take part in any of the side content I also want them to experience. I feel that any extra work besides the main adventure feels sort of meaningless without that character growth.
I absolutely LOVE the completely unexpected level up that comes with mile stone leveling. I don't know what things will make us level up, so when the DM says "and you all level up" it is SO exciting!
I've found the best way to use milestones is to give levels when it feels right for the party. It might be after a story arc or mission, or it might just be after a few sessions if the last one ends in the evening in game. This way, players are neither railroaded nor feeling like they're wasting time by spending a session in town just hanging out and shopping or whatever. There's always a sense of progression.
Gotta say, I love your little skits. I joined because of them and want to support you to keep making them. I go back to 1e and we could have used someone like you back then to help us with our game play.
Playing through the essentials kit adventures, I started with the Milestone levelling suggested in the module. I was concerned when my players reached the secondary quests that required completing 2 to reach the next level so I tracked their XP secretly. And by the time they finished the 1st secondary quest they.... hadn't reached enough XP to have reached another level. And they didn't even seem to mind that they had to complete 2 quests before they levelled up. When they are ready to level up I wait until they are back at the inn we are using as their home base. I describe the things that they learned as players (flanking, attacking flying creatures, never forgetting the rope, etc.) and they know that signals that they are ready to level up. It feels like a reward for good playing.
Wait... aren't DM's designing their adventures with both XP uses? "Alright, you just slew your third cultist Blank the Blank, this is how much XP you gained." "After bringing the beaten and bruised Cyanwrath back to camp, the guard captain thanks you. 'Let's take this monster to interrogation and see what information we can get out of him.' He stats. Alright group, add this much XP to your character sheet."
One of my groups are playing a very money driven campaign. So our dm decided that we would level up by paying gold which I've been quite enjoying because it adds a sense of deciding whether to prioritise getting equipment or levelling up and it's quite simple and easy.
It seems like it would be tricky for the DM to balance the proper amount of gold to give out. Like if they give out too much, you all could level super fast. I'm curious, do you find that the game has shifted more to just accumulating gold with that way of leveling up?
@@theDMLair well the entire campaign is about paying of debt on a house/base in a large town so it's been just trying to accumulate gold from the start and that's the main objective. And players could maybe level up quickly with balancing issues and the players strictly saving gold for levelling but I think most groups will realise that they should still be buying equipment like armour and better weapons. But the first few levels are easy to pay for but it gets alot more expensive so it will be hard to level quickly past level 4.
I've heard of the Gold for Exp method before. It gives the players some more control in when they level up or not, adds a real use for gold from adventuring, and incentivizes the players to explore everywhere in the dungeon to find all the money (and other valuables) that they can. Suddenly the painting that the DM mentioned gets revisited, and the players appraise it to see if it is worth the trouble of carrying back to town. I recommend using encumbrance (Or a variant item tracking sheet like the one that the Dm Lair worked up awhile back) with this experience system.
Another Pro and Con to Milestone: With good build-up getting a level after an intense encounter can feel sooo much more narratively rewarding than just randomly getting a level like half a session before said encounter. It can however cause a bit of a rush towards the current objective, players can get too busy chasing the goal to stop and smell the flowers so to speak.
Back when D&D was ‘cool’ exp was awarded for treasure collected and for possession of magic items. The idea was to promote the dungeon crawl to obtain the treasure over wholesale slaughter. Heck most encounters in old school D&D were deadly, one shot instakill, unrecoverable save failure. We avoided combat as much as possible, we knew a single kobold could lead us into a TPK easily. 5e has nerfed the threat so much that players can be murder hobos, because nothing but the most deadly CR encounters risk annihilation. I really enjoy running 5e, and my players have a lot of fun. But I have blended the old school powerful into the 5e game, so there isn’t a walk off win at every encounter. They have to think, plan, and execute carefully, or just avoid the fight altogether. So in the end, they earn XP for using their heads more than their weapons.
I can't love this comment, only like it. Yes, first edition had more dangerous encounters. I watch videos talking about making your challenge ratings too high. Well, guess what, retreat is always an option (or should be). I also remember that fighters would gain more xp for killing monsters. They were better armored, had more hit points, did more damage. What's a magic user going to do to gain xp before fireball?
Love this system, I had no idea it was a thing. Got the mental image of a bunch of xp flying out of a treasure chest vintage videogame style...and I like it.
One big concern i have about lots of crazy powerful enemies and encounters is that players will spend even more time than they do now discussing and planning. The concept sounds great in theory (use smart tactics!) but in practice it can easily lead to a slow and boring game where players spend most of the time discussing and deciding upon options instead of in the thick of action.
I was gonna say, I was surprised DM Lair didn't address "GP = XP" because that was (and still is) a great method of getting players to choose smart tactics and parley over just attacking everything, while keeping that "watch the progress bar fill" feeling. Honestly I wish that D&D had kept that as the default.
@@thegneech course if GP = XP then there are a few issues any mission that doesn't involve gold is instantly so much less appealing. and it also incentives criminal behavior. thieving, mugging etc.
Personally, I'd say that "milestone" vs "XP" levelling depends partly on your campaign and partly on your players. The DM in my current game uses a variant where everyone gets the same amount of XP at the end of each session, so it's mainly XP levelling but with a lot of the equality of progression which exists in milestone levelling. It works for us. (As I understand it, there's a certain amount of XP gained per encounter - adjusted for the number of players - and for each major accomplishment in the game each session, then that XP is divided by the number of players in the game to determine how much each player earned that session). Our particular group doesn't do a lot of in-depth role-playing and the DM hasn't awarded XP for it yet, that I know of. Oh, and I got to use Thunderwave for the first time ever, last session and terrified the goblins (what was left of them) out of their tiny little wits... which was a good thing since I was dropped to 1 HP shortly after that. :)
I make give my players more xp for following the story and doing smart things then when the kill stuff so I can use xp and they won’t be murder hobos. *That Just Sounds Like Milestone But With Extra Steps*
I’m running a campaign now and using milestone leveling because in my last campaign my players on the way home after a quest where one of them died. Decided to stop and look for enemies to kill Just so they could hit the next level. Completely ruined the atmosphere and made the death feel irrelevant.
This isn't a problem if you handle it right with the tools available. Characters wanting to hone their skills on some hapless creatures in the forest is plausible, but it will probably change their alignments. So let them follow through with it and see how their characters change. If they stop RPing properly and go totally meta, point that out and ask them why character A is behaving this way. Gently push them to RP the situation through properly.
As a player, my preferred method is when the DM uses a hybrid system. You primarily reward players with milestone leveling, but certain things such as when the party succeeds at something by a great group roleplay, you give everyone there at the session some experience points. Eventually you’ll end up gaining an extra level or two because of it.
Just a note on the "railroading" effect milestone has: If you can give XP for a random encounter, you can give a level for a random milestone. As a player - milestone leveling not only curbs the murder-hobo tendencies - it also keeps me focus on actual things to do. It's not so much "I must go deal with the Frost Giant threat to get to Level10." It's more forcing us to look at our to do and prioritizing it. The DM might not have *planned* on us being the only ones to bring peace between the shapeshifters and the miners - it had nothing to do with the campaign. But we got advancement just the same. Because again: if you can give XP for a random encounter, you can give a level for a random milestone.
I prefer a hybrid leveling system: Primarily experience from defeating enemies(doesn't require actual killing), but also can get experience from little side quests (such as helping a little old lady do something), but also if they do something really crucial for the main overarching campaign then they get an additional level, finally can also earn experience from roleplaying and haggling/speaking with various NPCs.
Thats basically what i do as a DM. its been 3 sessions, yall go ahead and level up. Helps me move the story along since I tend to make homebrew monster's too strong 😅
3:52 actually my players often don't kill enemies if I ever make them anything more than a mindless mosnter. If they talk and aren't pure evil players will usually at the very least have second thoughts about killing them. And I use XP levellng in my games
my issue with milestone leveling is that we’ve been playing on and off for two years (at least a years worth of sessions though) and we’re nearing level five. i don’t think it’s my dm’s fault i honestly think he just forgets so we started bugging him abt it every single session haha
I used to run milestone. After the 100th session of my players asking "when do we level up next" I changed to xp and never looked back. I give xp for encounters completed, using a handy excel spreadsheet that someone else on the internet made that does all my work for me. They get xp for milestones as well. Takes a couple of seconds and gives a real sense of progression. No extra work, less annoyance and my players much prefer it.
I have to say, I'm totally in agreement with milestone being the superior method overall. I've always used milestone until recently, but decided to try giving XP a try during a Lost Mines of Phandelver game recently. Matching to a module means I can't give out a ton of XP for things other than combat without having to re-balance the entire module, and I've noticed a definite shift in my player's mentalities towards combat and NPC interaction. Most of the benefits you can get from giving XP for other tasks can also be made bu just providing inspiration, loot, and so on. That said, I think XP leveling has its place too. After we finish LMoP, we'll be going straight into Dungeon of the Mad Mage, and because of the presence of the portals to skip between floors it feels like there isn't really a fair way to do milestones in that setting.
I've used both milestone and XP leveling, sometimes both in the same campaign. In this one in particular I'm doing, I had them milestone leveling up to 5th level and when the game opened up into the more "open", explorative aspect I switched it over to XP because in a sandbox environment you can't set story milestones if you don't really know what the party might be up to.
1st off: woo cameo cat! Didn't exp leveling start from the original goal of collecting loot and spending it? Because I think I heard somewhere that at some point it got shortcuted down to just killing. I'm on the side of milestones myself where I just set a number of obstacles they overcome to reach the level goals. (For example the players need to get 5 steps toward whatever plot they choose to pursue. For some great or amazing roleplaying I will give 2 steps or like .3 toward the milestones since my players like a rough progression bar to look at for reference instead of broad goals like "end the influence of the evil magic urn to reach level 3.") But good vid.
Not sure, but I do know that in the early days you did get XP from getting loot. That's one reason that players would want to steal from like every NPC in town (and maybe kill them too).
@@theDMLair I played in a game where we could only level by paying a trainer to train us up to the next level. But we had to keep our reputation decent since the trainer didn't want to have a prized student dragging the classes rep through the mud.
Interesting, I use XP myself but I basically do the same thing. An NPC proposes a problem and when they solve it, they receive XP, if they do secundary goals that are beneficial, they also get XP (like finding a key item for later or not starting a bar fight), the XP they get is always the standart for their level (aka what an appropiate level monster would give, so at level 1 a CR 1 monster) except if the objective was particularly hard or easy, in which case I just multiply/divide XP appropietly by an even number (the idea is to always have XP be a multiple of 100, that way is very easy to calculate stuff but it still give players the psychological effect of using big numbers).
@@theDMLair in the early days you got XP for everything. There are charts 4 XP for killing for XP for Luke for XP for interacting with townsfolk 4 XP for defeating traps literally everything gave your characters XP if the dungeon master was following all the rules which were an insane amount ( almost no DM's followed all these rolls because there was just way too many of them)
I've been doing this sort of thing for years. Rewarding things such as successfully picking locks, convincing NPCs, etc. One of my players chose to play a travelling doctor who went around helping and befriending people.
The comment about killing everything because they though they was running EXP hurt me since I hate Murder Hobo's and will leave a group if all of them are murder Hobo (1 I can handle by having the rest of the group get on my side or just watch them get killed). We took a guy prisoner for information and he beg us to spare him, I did swear to turn him over to the police if, he told us everything and he did so I honored my oath and turn him in (Do the Rogue suggest just killing him)... I think the last 2 session have been diplomatic resolving issues even with the Betrayer going up and kicking a Non-hostile Bullywug in the face. - would have left her to die if the Bullywug had demanded her head. All in the group share EXP so even players who have to miss a session due to falling ill etc isn't getting punished, do Role playing gives its own experince (Goblin + Marilith) :p
I had the opposite epiphany. I started my GM career with milestone leveling. I thought XP leveling lead to murder hobos and really only encouraged one type of game. I thought it turned the game into a big murder parade and that milestone was much more refined and nuanced. And then I tried XP and holy crap. I was wrong. XP leveling (specifically xp for gold) was such an eye opener. I could run truly open world games without coming up with arbitrary goals to level people up. I could stop plotting everything out to pace the game and let players motivate themselves. It was liberating as a DM. I stopped designing encounters that were level appropriate and players didn't have to get through the encounters to level up. They could simply go around and continue on their way. Or cheese to their heart's content. My players have never attempted to war crime kids because we talked about it before the game started. If they had, I'd reduce their level and make them earn it back. I don't worry about players forgetting what XP they are supposed to be. Either another player can help them or they just don't get that XP. It makes it easier to run mid-level parties because people are allowed to interact with the world at whatever level they are comfortable with. They don't have to face the main milestones with the big boys to level up.
Before watching this video I'm just going to leave this comment here and say: I think milestone leveling makes more sense. Not simply because it seems to potentially encourage more roleplay and discourages being a murder hobo, but from games I've always played it always seemed like there was a fix amount of encounters for combat making it so that a specific session or campaign will always give the same amount of xp every time, usually resulting in at least one level. Also Iirc the 3.5 rulebook stated that a player couldn't double level in a single session anyway if they happened to be able to actually kill enough to go up two levels, it would simply stop at 1 point away of gaining that second level and most DMs I've played with dont usually allow the leveling process during a session but only before or after it. In essence that basically makes the old system a milestone system anyway.
The other advantage of XP leveling - is that it ensures the DM has a guide of how much challenge and reward is supposed to exist in the frame of a level. As opposed to what I have seen where a DM will throw a whole level's worth of enemies into a single encounter, with no increase in reward over a baseline, same as if it had been a cakewalk.
As a player I was only recently introduced to milestone leveling, and it's SO MUCH better. To me, XP has always felt like a ball and chain that just weighs everything down. And it's so slow. I've never been in an XP driven campaign that leveled at anything other than glacial pace. And unless your DM uses some sort of bonus XP system outside of the normal rules, it outright punishes players for actually roleplaying. I'm now back in an XP driven campaign to introduce some new players to DnD and it feels like beating my head against a wall.
A little late on this, but a couple counterpoints: I've gone dozens of sessions at low levels without ever levelling up because the DM didn't think we had earned it yet. Milestones can feel super arbitrary. In addition to that, it can also disincentivize anything other than pushing through the main story and can even lead to some frustration if half the party wants to spend half the session RP-ing in town or working on a side quest but the others want to push on with the main story missions.
Once we discovered Milestone leveling was a thing, my group pretty much unaminously agreed that it's better than XP leveling. Milestone leveling removes that 'videogame' mentality of "So what are you going to do during downtime?" "Well I'm just gonna go out and find some goblins to kill so I can grind for levels." I think it's a good idea to level up the party as a reward for making progress in the main story in the campaign and as for any sidequests that might prop up, I would reward players with extra equipment or treasure that they might've missed out on if they just followed the main quest, rather than levelling up, it encourages players to explore your world and lessens the feeling of being railroaded because they get something out of deviating a little from the main story.
We did the same thing as well, but mostly out of laziness. We don't use encumbrance rules either, as both require more bookkeeping than we want to bother with.
"Well I'm just gonna go out and find some goblins to kill so I can grind for levels." "I don't award xp for narrative kills. However if you'd like to take time away from the group and everyone in the party to play through your character seeking out goblin encampment after goblin encampment to try and grind levels, we can pause the game and do that at the cost of every else's fun. Is that what you want?" If players have a videogame mentality when it comes to killing to get xp, it's because you've made the most valuable efficient source of xp killing. That's on you.
Pretty easy solution here. Encounter xp. Spread the xp of an encounter evenly as it is after all a team effort. You take the total xp of the encounter and divide it by number of players
Just wanna throw out a clarification: at least as far as the 5e Dungeon Master’s Guide is concerned, this would be “Level Advancement without XP.” It offers a “Milestone” system, and that is actually meant to supplement XP rewards. The way the 5eDMG talks about milestone, it’s awarding players for reaching milestones in the story, with XP or other rewards, like the benefits of a rest or charges of magic items. This is in tandem with traditional XP rewards for defeating enemies. I also wanna throw out some pros and cons for each system, at least that I’ve noticed throughout my experience with the game. TRADITIONAL XP Pros: - Gives some players a sense of tangible progress - Gives some players the feeling that their progress is a result of their own hard work - Some players will remember more often than the DM - More fun for older players Cons: - Encourages some players to get XP ‘by any means necessary’ - Players May assume that combat means progress (which should only be true about a third of the time) - Might lead to party imbalances - Some players will forget more often than the DM LEVEL ADVANCEMENT WITHOUT XP Pros: - Easier for DMs to track and control the party level - Easy for infrequent or intentionally short games - Allows the party to advance through any of the three pillars - Easier for newer players Cons: - Some players might feel like they’re only allowed one path to advance (players needn’t take any path, it’s the illusion of choice that creates player agency) - Less keen players might get frustrated at the lack of visible progress (those less involved in the story) As a final addendum, my favorite advancement system is the “Three Pillars XP” UA system. It needs some refinement, but it works on an easy 100 XP per level, scales based on the party’s tier of play, and gives tangible rewards for all three pillars of the game (combat, roleplay, and exploration). it also suggests how to modify it to accommodate only two pillars if one just wouldn’t fit for the type of story you’re telling. Granted, I don’t use it very often both because it’s UA, and most of my players prefer the standard system. I just strike a good middle ground by awarding XP like Fallout 4 does (practically anything that takes a players time/skill, with beefier bonuses for things related to the main story)
I generally prefer XP leveling, but it's been a great many years since I just used "Kill XP". Traps survived (preferably circumvented), objectives accomplished, Cool Stuff/Great Ideas (multilateral thinking), player schemes set in motion (guild building and other forms of entrepreneurialism), and so on, and so forth all give XP rewards with some relation to challenge and party level, but tracking (and approximating) the XP rewards they get does let me somewhat manage their progression, and of course, no giving XP out mid-session. Some times, they don't even get XP at the end of the session, if they're ending on a cliffhanger/in combat/etc. - but then they usually get it immediately after the situation is resolved next time. IMO, Milestones are best used with highly inconsistent groups, like Adventurer's League and the like, where you can't be sure who you'll be playing with from time to time, but with a reliable group, I still prefer XP leveling. Also, setting up to run a 1e D&D campaign; milestones are completely useless for that, seeing as every class has a different XP progression table anyway. :P
This is my plan: Group exp, meaning there is one exp counter, and the GM has it behind the screen. I also plan to grant exp based on actions according to the theme. If the theme is Heroic, killing a villainous monster will give exp, turning a villian good will grant more, and killing a villager will grant negative exp. It's an open world, and goofing off can be rewarding. I will be testing everything in Campaign Zero which will be 100% dmpcs and no actual players. This will make sure everything works, and cause problems for the players of Campaign One: Heroic to solve, as well as their own storyline.
XP Leveling: Fun to track and see how close you're getting to the next level, rewards players who attend every session, makes leveling feel like more of an accomplishment when you are the only person to level up after a certain session. Everyone at a session gets the same amounts, but players who miss a session get nothing (or get a side session of what their character was doing elsewhere, to get the same XP as the others) Milestone Leveling: Everyone at the same levels, but getting constantly asked by players "Did we level this session?" I'm using Milestone in my current game, and Milestones are useful when your campaign has a fully planned story where you can identify where the milestones will be. Harder to keep track of if you are playing a more open world "go where the players take you" type game, or aren't a DM who fully plans multiple sessions in advance.
I am very much pro regular attendance but stuff happens for adults. You aren't rewarding people who attend regularly, you are punishing those that have something important come up.
@@Serutans and I've been that player as well. My work schedule makes it difficult to be at every session, but I appreciate the disparity between myself as a semi-regular and the players in the group who are there every week. I also appreciate the opportunity that it gives for some 1-on-1 roleplay with myself and the DM to earn that XP in other ways, explaining why my character was not present for the main campaign session
Not myself, but one system a friend used was downtime levelling. They didn't get any XP while out adventuring, but only after getting back to a safe location to reflect on what they had accomplished. Then he asked them to sum up what they had done, and gave XP based on that, heavily rounded (usually up). I think he only really counted half or quarter levels, or something like that, since even a short excursion or mini quest would rarely be less than that. He also told me he once gave a Fighter one use of an extra attack (one level before getting it) while fighting a boss, since the previous attack almost killed it, and narratively resolved the fight with that new attack. And the party got an instant level up. After that he sometimes let them use abilities from the next level if they were close to getting that level, if it was suited the story, since they thought it was a cool preview of the next level as well as a mid-battle powerup.
Also, I like the Pathfinder 2e system. I was like FINALLY someone gets it!!! Seeing level 20 is now an option. Basically every level is 1,000 xp. Of course, the hight your level the less xp you get for weaker enemies. But if you're challenges correlate to your level the same, you will level up at the same rate (more or less) per level. I never understood why you get penalized twice for leveling in classic XP system: CRs have to be higher to relate to your new power (this makes sense and PF2e embraces this) BUT you also have to obtain more XP between each level. 300, then 600 more, then 1800 more, then you have to more than double what you had, then it gets slower and slower. I get what theyre going for (the better you get at something the slower the returns become) but dang. THIS is why most players never see their character get past 8-10. It literally can take more than a year at higher levels to go to the next. Now, you're theory craft build is a possibility. Now you can enjoy your character's capstone ability (or cry as you realize some classes have crap capstone... looking at you Ranger and Warlock).
I am a DM for my son and 2 of his friends (all 15 when they started) who have been playing for about a year now. I use the XP leveling. The first game, my son and one of his friends did capture enemies if possible to turn into the city magistrate for rewards and questioning. They did that without me suggesting it.
ive always despised xp leveling, and the grinding involved. milestone makes a lot of sense, as they dont have to bother with nitty gritty of experience, but rather story progression. in my rpg, ive lumped all EXP money and player progression into one unit, called favors. players earn personal favors by doing things, and can turn around and exchange them for the 'time' it took or takes to do something, like gain skill points or to craft equipment. that way my players can grow how they like, and if i want a more challenging encounter, i can easily beef up the baddies however i need.
I'm still very much a newbie - I've only been playing for about two months now - and our group plays milestone. Although I think there are intriguing points about XP levelling, I can definitely see its pitfalls! I think one thing I would struggle with is speaking up to make sure I get my actions outside as I'm one of the quieter ones of the group. Talking over Zoom can make it more difficult to be heard than being in the same room, I think. Great video!
My DM incorporates milestone leveling, but in order to make sure that encounters still feel rewarding, added a new mechanic that lets you accumulate little collectables that can be offered to the gods for tiny boons.. or hoarded to be offered en masse for something better. I think it was a good choice, because it also helps make the religions of the setting more relevant to the party.
Milestone leveling may be convenient for the DM. When I'm the player, I'm not fond of it, especially when my character level is low. With milestone leveling: The game seems less realistic. "The battle with the troll did nothing to improve my skills, but now that I've brought that letter to the town mayor, I'm suddenly much better at using my sword." The satisfaction of character building for players can be delayed, (especially at lower levels), if the milestone is too difficult or takes too long. Players have one less strategy option to choose from (especially at lower levels). "There is nothing in this world I can do to improve before the boss fight. If only there was some way I could practice to improve." Indirectly, it gives the DM more control of the story at the expense of the players. For example, it somewhat disincentivizes some party members to follow another into battle to get something special for the one. Instead of getting an XP benefit, the other party members get nothing at all. The focus becomes even more about following a pre-determined plotline, and less about the characters themselves, their experience, and their growth. Player chosen objectives have less meaning (if they not the ones given by the DM). "Well, you can offer your services to the king, but it could help you improve as an adventurer, even if you spent a year in his service." Exploration becomes less meaningful when not centered on the pre-conceived plot. "You can undo the traps and get the treasure, but you won't learn from the experience." "Well, okay, then, not much point in having fun exploring, I guess." It makes the open-world gaming style feel closed. It makes a closed-world gaming style feel suffocating. Random encounters become less meaningful and beneficial. Yet, they can be a source of great memories.
I'm using the XP system that Adam Koebel used in his Jace Beleren must die game. It's an XP system hack from the Blades in the Dark RPG. Experience Points At the end of a session, answer the following questions, player by player, as a group. For each questions, mark "XP:". When you've marked 4 + your current level in "XP", your level increases. - Did you overcome a challenging enemy? - Did you learn something important/significant about another player character?* - Did you discover a secret or piece of interesting lore? - Did you express a unique aspect of your class, race, or background? - Did you express your alignment in a way that complicated your character's life? *Something that defines their character or is unique to themselves. That character's player should be the one to initiate this.
I use xp system because i am a men of numbers, but if a monster awards 1k exp for being killed, and my players resolve the encounter in any other way (diplomacy, stealth, bribe or any other clever way) i give them the same 1k exp. If a dungeon has a total of 5k exp beetwen all its encounters and such, and my players find a really clever way of bypassing the dungeon, like teleportation or something, i give them ALL the dungeon xp. If i have a session without any combat (no thanks, but sometimes happens), but my players actually achieve something in the session, then i give them xp too. So i realize i am using a numeric milestone system. Thank you Luke! your content is really helpful, keep the good work going.
i'll just say that the problem with milestones is that does not give the sema rewards for exploring the world or just taking secondary misions, and maybe, the party want to do that. Maybe is getting out of the way to solve a backstory storyline earlier (wich inb my case usually leads them again to the main plot because i like to have it very tied as a DM so the players feel like the main objective is important to them) or some minor thing, like they defeated the dragon who was tormenting the town, but now they wanna help the town to regrow again before chasing the next dragon. Or maybe they just wanna explore the world a little bit, or they wanna help with some war that was ocurring in the back just to flesh the world. Milestone leveling would not usually reward for that, or will reward them to much so when they took again the main plot, they would be overleveled. ¿what i do? i give my players fragments of milestone. (note: i usually play 3.5 and never start at level 1, usually 2 or 3 depending on what concept characters brought to me, so they can start multiclased or with a level adjustment race to flesh out their characters better) so they need half their leven rounded up fragments of milestone to reach a new level. So, if they are level 5 and get 3 fragments, now thry are level 6. if they have 2 fragments, reach level 6 by normal milestones, they just keep their 2 fragments. So they are growing by doing things that are not the main plot, but not to fast, they have their treasure reward or whatever and this fragment milestones, that gives a level now and then but not enough to overlevel my campaing that much that is hard to re-balance for me. And, now i then, i plan a envcounter underleveled, so they can really feel that they had evolved, between the hard fights, wich now they feel how dangerous are compared to the rest of the world, and feel more that this growing aside the main plot matters, because if they go aside to become stronger, and all trhat they encounter is their level or higher, they will feel the advancement is empty and not real. So if they go out they way to grow a little more, be kind and let them see how stronger they got from time to time, friends.
Hi Luke, I also was a Dungeonmaster in high school but I took a 20-year vacation from doing it. Several weeks ago I started again after not even playing for almost 20 years. Last week I switched the party to milestone leveling and although we are all new to it, the entire group seems to really like the idea. (one veteran player in the group) Anyway, great content and I'm thrilled to see that you have a positive take on a change I had already implemented. I was sure hoping that you weren't going to say milestones wreck your campaign LOL!
This is a very good point. I gave my players exp for different actions, like overcoming monsters and problems for 20 years. I recently switched to milestone-leveling and it works much better now. I don’t see the benefits of exp per action/whatever anymore. It is fun for a while but it wears off.
You make some good points about milestone. My only problem with the few milestone campaigns I've been in is that it seems to de-incentivize combat. As combat is my favorite part of D&D, (actual combat, not murder-hoboing) anything that diminishes the amount of fighting would make me far less likely to be/stay interested in a campaign. Without challenging combat, there doesn't ever really feel like anything is ever at risk. How can someone be invested in a story if there is so little risk that they know they will succeed in the end, with only a handful of somewhat challenging bosses along the way? Again, that's just my personal bias as a more combat-oriented player.
Personally, I still use XP levelling with rewards for rp etc. FOR ALL PLAYERS. My players just think it is much more rewarding and that it adds to the freedom of an open game I create.
I use a party XP system, I just add up the XP pools of each member and they all level up at the same time, saves me from having to split the XP between players and keeps things going.
XP leveling takes gives a sense of fairness to the players. It also takes prevents players from asking if the level up after every session, which to me is a relief. I could probably think of some more if I sat for a bit but most of them would revolve around the idea of taking control from the DM(though not really because I still have control of which monsters they fight). This lack of control can be a bulwark to help defend newer DM's while more experienced ones circumvent it or use it for a fuller use. XP leveling also makes side quests seem more impactful since you are at least gaining some xp from the fights.
In the oldest versions of the game, the primary source of experience was gold brought out of the dungeon. Combined with the greater fragility of PCs, this lead to combat being avoided.
I initially liked leveling up via experience and thought it was the way to go. After playing a milestone game I found there was no going back. It allows a DM to make more interesting encounters and it makes completing quests and events feel like much more of an accomplishment. My favorite DM tied leveling up via milestone to how characters were played. Our Paladin visited a shrine and was called by the deity to make an oath. After doing so, he reached 3rd? level. My character got revenge for the death of another player's previous PC and got a level up. It make the event's resolution much better.
I originally cut my teeth on the various Palladium systems years ago before then moving on to D&D 2E/3E/3.5 and then other systems over the years. That definitely tinted my view on XP since I originally came from a system that specifically gave XP for using skills, problem-solving, playing in character, and playing in character, and specifically for avoiding unnecessary violence with a relatively small amount for defeating foes.
I'm experimenting with milestoneleveling variations. Like including mini milestones that will give the players something like half a level in order to give the players some sense of progression instead of just jumping them up one level after they finished a quest. I also did some quests with smaller "bonus" mini milestones in quests for example for actually solving the puzzle instead of just smashing the door open or for also saving the other prisoners from that orc prison instead of just themselves. (Of course I just adjust the future encounters to higher levels, if they actually get an additional level up, but so far their reaction to getting rewarded out of the order for extra efford war really good. I also tried to give each player some kind of personal quest (that ideally ties in with their background) which would gain them one level personally if they complete it, but that needs some refinement still, as I often end up rewarding just one player for stuff that was actually a group efford.
My group does bi-session leveling. Yeah, it doesn’t make much mechanical sense sometimes, but it’s fun because we know that we’ll get to high levels soon enough so we enjoy ourselves
Gearshift leveling: every level is 100 XP. The GM plans how many sessions they feel comfortable with the party spending at that level, divide 100 by that number, and award that much XP after each session. THEN use a simple XP multiplier based on how challenging the session was, whether that means combat or not. For example: x0 for downtime x0.5 for preparing and light combat ×1 for adventuring and tackling problems x1.5 for bosses and crazy over the top sessions. Suggest optional objectives to bump the multiplier up, like clearing a whole area without resting, or saving all the prisoners. Easy to track and control, but also lets players know how close they are, and encourages fun risks and smart play.
My most notable experience with this was from when I was running XP leveling, as it was what was written into the modules I was running, but I was buffing the monsters A Lot as my party was pretty beefy. Thusly, they were earning A LOT of XP, and leveling Really Quickly... So I started just... not, giving out levels until we had a few sessions at each one. I thought switching to Milestone helped me keep the cadence of advancement under control really well, though I'm still glad I started with XP leveling to have a guide for how fast I wanted levels to go when I was just starting out with 5e.
I explicitly use milestone/arc completion leveling. After several rounds of combat or skill usage, you'd naturally grow in your skills. It doesn't bog down the GM's duties by assigning XP values to the plethora of monsters the PCs slay or the actions that PCs take. I also think this helps with pacing for long-running campaigns and gives a better sense of player progression.
How to use experience points system as DM. Step 1. Ignore xp listed in monster stat blocks. Step 2. Determine about how many sessions you want to pass between levels. Step 3. Determine the amount xp it will take for the players to level up. Step 4. Divide xp needed by sessions, to get xp per session. Step 5. End each session by recounting the top 2-5 accomplishments of the party, attaching xp numbers to each event, that roughly add up to the amount calculated in step 4, more if they were very productive, less if they weren't. Note that it is not a long a complicated process, especially if the players haven't leveled up since last time you did step 4. Basically you are just ending the session on a high note saying "I thought this was cool, here take a reward" Takes like 2-3 minutes of prep, and adds like 30 seconds of wrap up. And no matter what you do, no matter how much some accomplishment was just one players accomplishment. KEEP XP EVEN!!!! No one should ever be a different level from the rest of the party. "Rogue, your clever scam was brilliant, you earned the group 500 xp each today!" See, it is that easy. The goal in my campaigns is never to have the players follow the story, get to the next story beat. My goal is for my players to create a story of their own, they can do anything they want, go anywhere they want, help any side they want, and comfortably know, they will be getting xp every session.
I think with not using xp you give away a really powerful tool to fine tune and flavor your game. Of course you need to think about what you want the experience of play to be/what behavior you want to encourage or discourage. But you need to only do that once at the start of the campaign. You only need to figure out how much an average Encounter/Obstacle/Problem is worth once and then it's literally just: "You convinced the king, gain x amount XP" "You figured out who the murderer is, gain x XP" "You escaped the trap chamber, that was filling up with water, gain x XP" If you want to encourage exploration maybe give out x/2 XP for finding secrets/treasures. Or maybe you want to encourage your players to help people or solve problems, you can give out XP for that. Or for advancing the main plot (which is basically what milestones do). It doesn't have to be as complicated or as much work as a lot of people seem to make it. You can also do fun stuff like "You need to escort those 5 NPCs but you only get XP for the ones that actually survive". With milestones it's just whatever, we'll get our levels anyway. If you don't want your players to kill random NPCs, don't give out XP for killing stuff that isn't actually bad guys. And yes, the direct connection between action and reward is a really great thing from a Design perspective. Or having a number that ticks up. And I don't think the math of most RPGs is so tight that it really matters weather the PCs are a bit under or over leveled. If you don't want your players to level up in a dungeon you can always say that that's only possible in town. Maybe they even need to talk to some Expert to learn new Skills or Spells.
Yesterday my party, after some poor planning on my end, were faced with a massive slime. My rule lawyer wizard inquired about the damage the slime does. Im still new to dnd, lore behind everything, and how many things work. I told him it was acid damage. He got the players into his plan of teleporting away just after casting firebolt, blowing up the slime and escaping with the artifact. i told them how explosive this slime was and how many commoners are in the area. They found it as a great idea. And thats the story of how i technically ran a campaign to level 50 in 4 sessions. They killed over 130 million people and destroyed an entire planet. Im still impressed that this is not even the craziest thing ever.
While watching, I thought of an advantage for XP. I recently started playing an XP game after 15 years of milestone... and found that I am more engaged with XP. But the advantage is that you implement QUESTS OBJECTIVES. 1. You can kill everyone and get the standard XP. 2. You can capture them get a bonus for their bounties. 3. You can parley (skill check) a secret quest ‐ and help them for a larger bonus.
One thing I have thought about doing is dividing experience based on how many players there are. So if I have a monster worth 900 exp points, and I had nine players, each player would get 100 exp points. I have also toyed with subtracting exp if a player does something like kill a non-hostile villager. I tend to think of it as the laws of the jungle: 1. Kill for food. 2. Kill if you are in danger of being killed. 3. Do not kill just to get a trophy.
One alternative that can make milestone leveling feel more rewarding is the following: roughly calculate how many sessions it should take the players to achieve the milestone goal (don't worry about being precise, this method works regardless of how accurate your assessment was - but don't tell the players how many are needed to level, lest they stall on purpose prior to a final BBEG encounter). Then, whenever a player does something amazing or cool, reward them one 'legendary moment' token. If a player accumulates a number of legendary moment tokens equal to what you considered the number of sessions needed to accomplish the milestone, allow that player to level up early (this also helps make the party a bit stronger before that final BBEG encounter). However, after the milestone is achieved, everyone else levels up as normal (making the party once again all the same level prior to the next part of the campaign). Furthermore, everyone (including anyone who used their tokens to level up early) can 'spend' their legendary moment tokens in their 'base' city or town for rewards granted by the DM, representing their growing fame and renown. Examples might include audiences with major NPC's, rewards of treasure or minor magic items, cheaper prices for supplies, NPC fans or followers, etc. Then this system restarts for the next phase of the campaign (with all players having 0 remaining legendary moment tokens). Easy for the DM, yet it still rewards individual players for exceptional play, without making the entire campaign imbalanced (perhaps a few sessions might feature an extra powerful player, but just when the party might need it), and can be fun to roleplay the turning in of legendary moment tokens after the campaign.
I play in a westmarches game and we use sessions to track levels. I've found that even with xp being separated from killing stuff that players still legitimately gravitate into different camps- we've even formed groups called /murdergang/ and /nicegang/ and its not at all seen as "well murdergang are bad RPers and Nicegang are good RPers." If anything its become a disparity on how to solve problems. When you spare everything and try to use them to further other objectives- for example sparing bandits and then setting up a jail and turning them into a workgang we've found that we're encountering a problem almost similar to ancient Rome where the things we've captured and tried to use productively have begun to outnumber the amount of things we can control. Even though this subjugated giant would be a great boon in construction work the process of keeping the other workers in line with him there as well is just too much to handle. The major benefit to /murdergang/ is that practically speaking if you do a good enough job murdering everything you can actually just solve problems then and there. Both sides have been able to get things done effectively very well- and sparing the prisoners actually creates MORE WORK for the DM than just counting up EXP because you have to consider the outcome of all those loose threads left in the world.
I have been watching many videos about DnD and came up with various ideas for sessions one of them being that i will use an exp pool for the party. I was thinking of: letting them buy lvls/spells and maybe feats with it but as the group contributes to the pool the amount per lvl is higher. The amount for spells bought will depend on lvl of the character and spell lvl . That way finding spellbooks will still be a reward. Still working on the idea as i am aware it is quite ambitious and much work to balance the exp price of spells and feats as well as the exp amount for quests.
We use both, but we also use diminished mob exp and gold exp...in other words it balances out. We only play once a week if lucky, so we have a level exp/milestone increase (since retold...after four sessions, the party is only level 3 max). The cool thing about milestone is we only allow leveling (after 10), to be done as an extended town/village visit where training with advanced teachers can be accessed.
I play RPGs using XP for over 20 years (mostly dnd). Very few games I played had xp rewards directly attached to killing monsters. I was either "every encounter combat/social/trap/puzzle/whatever would have a xp value and you get that xp no matter how you solved it." or "the better you roleplay the more xp you get" (this one is bad, because that usually means the GM's favorite player) or "the module has a bunch of objectives, each of them has an amount of xp value that you get when you do them" PS: oh and the classic: xp = gold (this one backfired on me when I was 16; I put a golden statue that was too big to be carried in a dungeon... and the players broke it to little pieces so they could carry it)
I do a combination of both Mildstone and XP leveling. I give them multiple ways to complete a set objective though. For example, my group is trying to escape from a slave mine. They can either sneak out, start a slave uprising, or use some gorilla tactics to take down the monsters that are enslaving everyone.
I've been DMing since the early 90s in Junior High. didn't use milestone leveling until started using 5e the fall of 2018. I love it. It makes everything easier. The players who I played with earlier to like it better as well (or at least they haven't complained). Unfortunately, they are still Murderhobos
Best way I can think of to avoid railroading is having multiple ways to achieve and objective and just work those methods in as the game goes on so long and the major somewhat vague objective is met. For example the objective of ending a goblin threat and be done by diplomacy if the goblin leader is intelligent enough, it could also be taken care of by finding a way to direct the goblins to a new target so they give the quest giver some relief, then theres the tried and true method of sampling removing the goblins from the area via death and other means that some people may come up with that are either more or less sinister. Lastly outside of multiple way to complete an objective you can simply give your players multiple objectives as well, doesnt have to be some random guy they talk to who randomly asks for their aid. Could be a suspicious fellow that a player decides to tail or a bounty board as a mercenaries guild, could even be simply finding an object on the ground and attempting to track it back to its owner.
Let me know which you prefer: milestone or XP leveling.
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I enjoy XP leveling more.
I’ve never tried using milestone, I’ve always run XP, and split it between the party, not individual players, but I don’t just give it for murder, I also give it for finding hidden magic items, role playing out tough situations, and personal character achievements. Usually more, for RP stuff cause it is harder to convince an enemy to stand down than take them out.
For quite a lot of encounters with intelligent enemies I have two XP charts, one for killing and one for sparing/talking.
For example I have an encounter coming up with a Hag, the players have been tasked to kill them but they can also talk and convince her to leave the town alone, either outcome gets XP.
I'm cool with milestone. Seeing numbers go up, (such as xp) is not the reason I play the game. Roleplaying is!
(I do like to see gold going up thoguh.)
This was really helpful for me. Thank you! I’m a relatively young DM, and your videos help me simplify my campaigns and prep my games.
I currently run two groups, in one, they use xp because they love the idea of seeing themselves get stronger, and they’re always jumping at the bit whenever a session ends because they want to see how much they’ve grown that session (this group is 4 players who are running what is their 1st ever campaign). The other group is much more veteran players, and when one of them asked all the group quickly and unanimously agreed that they all prefer milestone. One of them even citing the fact it’s easier for the dm to keep track (this group consists of 8 players, and they all are older players). So I think that the longer a person has played, the more they prefer milestone.
The Objective Bottles
I'm one of those XP leveling up GMs. Monsters, Skills and Good Ideas are my main source of XP rewarding. Also, before each session, I give a bottle to each player. Inside is a rolled up note with objectives to earn extra XP. Can be anything from "Arm wrestle an NPC" (25 XP), "Tell a joke" (10 XP per player laughing), "Insult an enemy before attacking" (50 XP). I change the challenges inside to match each session and players.
The wizard might get "Use Burning Hands once on a group of enemies" (10 XP per victim) I will see creativity come from the player trying to get as many kobolds rounded up in group before igniting them all.
Barbarian could get "After Battle dance in the blood of your enemies" (50 XP) The player gets out of his/her chair and does a quick jig. We all cheer and laugh. Breaks tension and makes memories.
Also the players have to keep their challenges a secret (Until the end of the game) or they forfeit the XP. (Players are aloud to guess but never tell)
Yes this method is even more work, but I find it a way to get the murder hobos to roleplay, get the quiet ones to engage, and to encourage everyone to think outside the box.
Lastly, I try my best not to use these challenges to Railroad players or the game. Only to encourage, enhance and give them other options than the usual pace.
I switched to milestone leveling, but this sounds like it is a lot of fun too. Thank you for sharing!
That sounds fun good job
That sounds incredibly fun
That sounds like a lot of fun. Couldn’t something similar be accomplished by giving the players other small rewards like inspiration? In fact, that’s what inspiration is for, but more concrete goals makes it easier to remember.
@@mrmaat I feel like inspiration is rarely given out because as a DM, having the ability to make any roll at advantages can be game breaking if the whole team is constantly getting them(especially because everyone saves them for the BBEG or when they have to make a saving throw on something they rightly should be afraid of). This breaks down the tension of big fights imo. It seems like those that like XP based leveling are often those that encourage/push you to roleplay.
Hell, my first introduction to D&D was on roll 20 and joining a 2nd Edition group where we only got XP based on how good/well we interacted with our characters(so we wouldnt just murder hobo everyone). This was gauged based on the players ability to roleplay and was merely to prevent John Doe from just playing on his phone while waiting for his turn in combat/ phoning it in. It really stretched me to think "how would my character react to this?" rather than just playing through a campaign from a 3rd party perspective. I feel like milestone leveling (especially the new books/AL groups) tends to have players that are not focused on roleplaying but almost entirely focused on the objectives necessary to complete a task/adventure (this is just what i have found to be true in my 2 years of playing 5E).
I fee like at the end of the day, we are creatures that love achieving goals and more often than not, would not nearly roleplay as much if their was no reward (not because we dont want to roleplay, but because we often get caught up in other things). Having objectives/incentives to roleplay encourages players to actually stretch themselves and play their character as an actual character. Sure, there are veterans that dont need those things, but I find that D&D becoming mainstream has definitely resulted in less roleplaying and more "point and click adventure" but with rolling. Homebrews might be an entirely different thing though. I only play Adventurers League at a comic book store, so to each his own.
“The murder hoboing stops now” so many horror stories wouldn’t exist if this actually worked
I've played milestone systems where the players still did a lot of murder hoboing, unfortunately. Some players are just hard coded to behave that way.
If you kill a murder hobo does that make you a murder hobo?
@@JD-mh8be A murder hobocide?
@@JD-mh8be He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.
@@KageRyuu6 Play the stupid Straud campaign, and you'll become a murder hobo, especially if the DM allows no place for respite in the campaign. My character's brutality soon matched my own level of frustration in the game. I was literally looking forward to oblivion a Suicide Squad style foray into the Amber Temple.
My group have playing for years and have always used milestone leveling and have never had any issues
I do the same thing with my group. Milestone xp rewards players for solving problems, not just being murder hobos. If my players can bring a villain to justice without shedding a drop of blood, I am not going to penalize them for being creative. Likewise, if my players circumvent a difficult social encounter by assassinating the single npc that made it difficult, I am not going to penalize them for that either. Milestone xp offers rewards for both, without penalizing player choice.
I use XP,
Because my players like it,
In return my players don't question any amount I tell them,
If I say a Lich gives 69 XP because they give 23XP per level,
They'll accept it as fact and move on.
I use experience point leveling dolled out in a milestone format. I give my players all of their experience at once after they finish a mission. When they complete whatever it was they were doing, I will read off their accomplishments and tell them how much experience they get from it. This way they still get the thrill of getting exp, and know that not all of it came from killing creatures. This lets them get closer to a level without leveling up. With milestone leveling either they level or they don't, that's in terms of experience rewards. This also lets them get extra experience for things I wasn't planning for. Doing it all at once lets me not have to worry about them leveling up quest.
Funny seeing you here.
Me too. We have a limited time frame so it allows us to keep playing.
my old dm would do that but instead of after each mission we would get at the end if each session
@@tattoorocker did it work well for your group? Our setup is more conducive to this since our sessions are only about 75 minutes each. I also think it makes sense, because it means the characters have to take some time after an event to reflect and grow from it.
@@JadeyCatgirl99 from what I can remember it worked pretty well
Xp leveling has one advantage: you can choose whether you want to use milestone leveling whenever you want (for example “this dragon is worth however much xp you need for level 6”)
Unless one party member is already level 6 and another one is only at 4
@@sharktos3218 Unless you use party XP. But seriously, if you have a two-level difference at those low levels, you're probably doing something wrong.
XP for all progress. Killing, knocking out, stealthing past, social encounters, nonviolent resolutions, role playing and the whole party shares XP. And I gave it collectively at the end of each session.
yup, which a little on top for creative solutions/going the extra mile to act like "normal people" (normal being relative to what are fantasy world mercs/bountyhunters/tomb robbers, but hey)
THIS!
As a DM, if you break MY suspended believe of how a session or encounter will go and make me say, "wow, that was great". They get XP bonus.
PC here: Milestone leveling is much better for DMs and keeping players together and unjealous.
for lazy Dms
Or maybe inexperienced DMs?
not at all...
if thats your only reasoning for going milestones... then your DM has been very badly distributing XP.
Jealous players... sorry but getting less XP then others would push me to understand that "I AM" doing something wrong ad must up my game. this is what hapenned in my campaign right now. one of the player started to ask me, why he got less XP then others, and i was like, you stand in your corner and just wait for others to take the decisions. you also don't much participate in conversations with others. i wanted you to understand that this game encourages people who actively play the game. not that you didn't have your moments, i loved your moments. but... they are too few and wide. the player was like "oh" low and behold today that player is one of the greatest at my table, to the point where i decided to remove individual XP and go back to group XP.
you also have to understand that it was always group XP to begin with, i don't know why people would stop giving XP to those who were not there. the reality was that experience points were always distributed and split "evenly" among the group. never should a player get more XP then another. XP also encourage players not to miss a session. which milestones don't since they also know they will level up by missing games. if a player gives me a good reason for missing out a game, like "Work called" its fine, i'll imagine what your character do while the group go forward and i award XP for that too. but if you tell me, i just don't wanna play today. i'm like ok, stay home if thats what you want. but that only means to me that you are not dedicated to the game and thats a no no for me.
keeping players together is also something that removes some of the fun of the game. i would preffer, anyday, play a lower level character then the others because its more fun to see how i will survive the encounters they do. the problem is that players loves power, and leveling up is power. they expect the world to be easier as they level up. there is no other reasons for leveling up in the game. but with leveling up comes less chance of dieing, less chance of dieing comes the feeling of being a god. is that really what you want your players to feel as they level up ? feeling like the game has become easier and dieing is now an impossibility ? i beg to differ and preffer to stay lower level and see the challenges of fighting monsters for what they are. its easy for a fighter hitting a tarrasque on the toe if he deals 100+ damage every rounds. while fighting a tarrasque on his toe doing next to nothing damage wise will feel titanesque a task ! players would preffer to find other methods instead of just straight on fighting it.
@@dndbasement2370 Not everyone wants to play in or run a game where the players compete amongst each other. It's an old-school mentality that is increasingly going out of style. And there is a very important distinction of doing something "wrong" and doing what the DM doesn't like or cares about.
@@Serutans where did i ever talked about pvp ? i hate PVP as it break gameplay. but think about it, if you need mechanics to enforce cooperation, then you already have a lot of problems in your games man. the only thing i hate about milestones is the fact that players do not have any feels of accomplishment until the DM decides so and that sucks. to me thats why i preffer XP. bit more work on my part, but at least my players knows how much they accomplished each games.
In my group, I sorta use "arc" leveling. If the campaign is a story, I try to fit in levelups where they would make the most sense from a narrative standpoint.
This is similar to milestones, but imo its more fluid. I don't have benchmarks necessarily for overcoming specific badguys or challenges. I tend to run pretty open world games - I certainly have things going on in the world around the PCs but ultimately I let them choose their own path.
ie If they ignore the Giant threat marching across the plains but they manage to save the coastal village from Sahaugin, they might have completed a story arc.
That's actually a cool idea, I might use this in the future
We use a weird combo that we get normal exp for beating ceatures/solving problems but if we beat someone we had to, completed a job or what not we get milestone exp.
I use something like this I found it pretty good and easy
Sounds like a cool system!
You are really just describing milestone leveling but acknowledging that it's more flexible than "have preset things that will give a level up".
Very important clarification: In the case where DM gives XP for RP, the DM doesn't give more XP to players who roleplay better, the DM gives more XP to players who roleplay more along the lines of what the DM likes/wants. No DM is a cosmic arbitrator of what consists of as "better". By doing XP for RP, you bend the behavior of players to your tastes as the DM.
Precisely!
It also rewards players who are more creative with their roleplaying.
That's a great point!
@@Lobsterwithinternet I think you might have misunderstood my tone. By no means I intended that to be taken as a good thing. It's a DM indirectly shifting the way players roleplay their character. It's a controlling behavior and I would never play in a game where the DM does this.
The most common example is the DM who loves funny characters and is completely meh about serious ones. Whether it's XP or just Inspiration, the whole tone of the game gets shifted - and not in a healthy way but to an extreme. People who do this in their games are the munchkins of the roleplaying side of rpgs.
Good role playing is pretty easy to spot, but I would not dream of providing in-game rewards for it.
@@Serutans Sorry about that. Kind of jumped the gun there.
And agreed.
I use XP, but keep the players at the same amount. I find that when we used milestones it encouraged an annoying "do we level up now?" trend that I had to deal with after every combat. Running with XP means the players also have a concrete way of knowing how close they are to the next level up. Milestones can also leave combat more disappointing, depending on the mindset of the players. In some cases, players expect to be gaining something after every combat, but not every foe or threat is holding anything of worth. I'm working on implementing more harvesting rules, but XP does at least give you a satisfying reward to give your players after every combat.
dms guild has a harvesting guide thats pretty good
Easy solution: you literally cannot "level up" in the middle of the dungeon. You need to spend time outside the dungeon to actually level up. Fighters spend time fighting, maybe gaining new proficiency in a weapon or other skill. Thieves practice their skills in the guild, Clerics and monks spend their time in meditation, magic users learn spells, literally. It might take a week in game time, or two weeks, something like that. And would generally take place in town. They might gain moor than a single level, but leveling always happens during downtime.
Same man
I've dealt with the same issue, but it doesn't bother me much.
Sure, it can be slightly annoying to be asked every session, but also sometimes it helps me because I realize I haven't leveled them up for a long time.
A "milestone solution" though could be to ask the players what they did that earned them the level up.If you are level 10, smashing a goblin patrol doesn't get you a level. But if the players say "but we smashed dozens of patrols, blinding the hobgoblin army's scouts and forcing them to retreat, saving the countryside".. yeah, diverting an entire army could earn you a level.
Though, I know imagine the small grin and the "hmm, that's what you think happened" as the DM walks away cackling, to tell the players that part of the reason they haven't leveled is that the challenge isn't over yet
There is one advantage that XP has over milestone and this is mostly for newer DMs. XP shows you exactly when your players will level up, I've seen a lot of DMs just never level up the party for months on end when the player's should have leveled up by now, and this is even in the lower tiers of play. So awarding XP for roleplay, fighting and all of that is good for new DMs because it gets rid of the whole never leveling up pit fall milestone tends to have.
Good point. My buddy Jon was telling me a bout a DM he had and they only got XP once a YEAR. So they basically spent years at level one (because people would die and then start over). It was horrible. Not exactly the same as what you're saying, but not knowing when to give out milestones could be troublesome for new DMs.
I understand what you mean but I feel the opposite - with XP you can't predict (unless you do a shitload of math and guessing) when the players will level up. I don't want that to be in the middle of the dungeon where it might trivialize the rest of it.
I'm a newer DM. I've been using milestone leveling as the module request and If i do a homebrew campaign I would just use there system of leveling where the amounts of quest need to level up increases every couple of levels ie. 1 quest per level upto 3rd level then 2-3 quest per level. so on and so forth but in addition to that I would award a level for personal story progression. like getting revenge on the lord of the land that sent your family to the gallows unjustly.
Ye I feel that, but honestly while starting out I was more or less confused about the XP system tried using it and failed so then I started using milestone and I believe everyone had a better time. I mean I convinced everyone else who DMs to switch to milestone through my games.
I use XP because I don't know when to level up otherwise. Next campaign I have an idea of when to level up my players, but I want that they are deciding then what to use at session 0
I love how the DMLairPCs are actually getting character development.
I run an "adventure of the week" sort of campaign where there is an ongoing world and story, but each weekly session is its own self-contained mission that players are free to sign up for or skip (I find it's a good way of staying flexible with people's schedules while still having regular sessions). For that reason, I've started using a sort of hybrid leveling system where there is no xp, you just level based on number of sessions played. Keeps the math simple: either you came and played or you didn't. It doesn't reward or punish any style of gameplay, all it rewards is attendance.
XP levelling is good for keeping track and I have to disagree that it encourages killing.
You can tell your players before hand that XP is awarded if you either kill enemies, force them to surrender or incapacitate them. This way players will know that killing isn’t the only way to get XP.
Award them experience if they manage to talk to enemies out of combat or pulling them into traps where the enemy is stunned or put to sleep etc etc. The way I do it is, if the enemy is no longer willing or unable to fight the PCs then they get XP.
Also you don’t have to give more XP for things like good Roleplay or accomplishing objectives. You can reward those player with inspiration points. You’re the DM, you aren’t forced to give anyone extra anything. Especially XP. You can reward them in other ways, and always balance XP rewards.
This is what I do
Exactly! And you can also award XP for accomplishing certain goals, regardless of how the pcs go about it. Like finding where the villain's hideout is, some players might decide to talk to the npcs and roleplay until they find that information, some might use investigation checks at key locations to gather clues and figure where they lead, while others might catch one of their minions and -torture- intimidate them into spilling the beans.
The difference from doing that and milestone is that it's waaaay more satisfying and it doesn't make your players go "do we level up now?" every encounter.
I agree. If you're willing to put in all of the extra work to create additional things that you can reward XP for and use it to encourage things like roleplaying and not killing people then it can be a very successful system. If I had more time and inclination I might be more tempted to go back to XP. In the meantime Milestone is beautiful.
You can also subtract xp for behavior against the character's alignment/loyalties/traits/etc.
@@MonkeyJedi99 Oh, you mean being unfun
"How many groups of players do you know that knock bad guys out and turn them over to the authorities?"
*Raises hand* "Ooh, ooh! That's 90% of my characters and also the group I DM for!"
"Yeah, that's what I thought!"
Me: = (
I personally use a hybrid system while DMing. We get XP for resolving encounters one way or another (Kill/KO/sneak past/etc.). If the players stick more to the sneaking/RP side, the XP is awarded later to cut down on interruptions. If the players are really close to leveling up and finish an important arc, they may just get the level as a bonus. Quest XP is also a thing to give incentive to more RP. Depending on the situation, they either just get a chunk of XP or even the rest of their level (depends on the quest/how close to a level they are).
This method has always worked well. The players have never gone "murder hobo" (no human-like races have ever even been killed by my PCs, honestly) and they feel that no playstyle is punished. Since quest XP is a thing, even non-combat solutions will yield growth in the end. I feel that this solution offers the best combination for us. RP is rewarded since choosing to avoid combat or KO if forced to fight is not penalised. In addition, we still have the chance to level up mid-mission (which is fun) while also knowing that big enough quests may grant a level too.
Edit: Forgot to mention that I "level-sync" and keep XP the same, as mentioned in the video. I don't do that whole "you get more XP because you are the rogue and do more stuff" crap.
I finally got around to watching this. My take: a major purpose of having rules in an rpg is to strip away "DM Fiat", in other words give the players more rights and free agency. The psychological advantage of XP leveling is it puts ownership and control of things in the hands of players. It's not just "we level up when the DM arbitrarily decides or whatever, I dunno". The way to make milestone leveling work is just what was described in this video- tell the players what the milestone is. Make it as objective and factual as adding numbers. That's the key to making it feel fair and legitimate.
Milestones need to be treated like very specific requirements for example:
The party of first level characters will all be elevated to 3rd level if they rescue 90% or more of the kidnapped family members.
They will only be elevated to 2nd level if they rescue 26% to 89% of the family members.
They will stay at 1st level if they rescue less than 25% of the family members.
You do not care how they accomplish the objective hence no railroading.
Also you can have 5 to 10 smaller (think job board) successfully completed quests perhaps equal a single level gain at tier 1, 10 to 20 smaller quests at tier 2, 20 to 40 smaller quests at tier three, etc.
Exactly!
Adam Fairbairn I think that’s called a quest point system which is kind of a combination of XP and milestones, completing quests and arcs creates quest points which you then use to level up. You can still have certain criteria award more or less allowing for some DM agency but completing quests will always award quest points (unless the task is so trivial that it should award no experience, think 19th level party doing tons of level 1 stuff just to grind that last level since that would be pretty boring).
So much this! I played with this DM who was milestoning, and after a year of games (every 2 weeks) we were only level 3. I eventually left that group and joined another (at the same game store), who were also playing every two weeks and started about the same time as us and they were level 6-7 (they were xp leveling). I once pointed that out to the first DM who answered by saying it's because he didn't like dealing with higher-level characters because things become too easy, not challenging enough.
Let's just say I pretty much despise milestone now!!! But that could very well be from personal experience!
Commenting to save
Both systems work well. In either case, the key to a satisfying "level up" is the DM taking creative agency to reward players.
I know this counters the “keep them from wondering” mentality, but I like XP leveling because it frees my players up to do what they want. I like running fairly open campaigns, and I want my players to get interested in side hooks, exploring the world and helping locals, and I have a hard time quantifying their progress with milestone leveling. I can say that they level up once they make it to the next part in the main quest they have, but that urges them to not take part in any of the side content I also want them to experience. I feel that any extra work besides the main adventure feels sort of meaningless without that character growth.
I absolutely LOVE the completely unexpected level up that comes with mile stone leveling.
I don't know what things will make us level up, so when the DM says "and you all level up" it is SO exciting!
I've found the best way to use milestones is to give levels when it feels right for the party. It might be after a story arc or mission, or it might just be after a few sessions if the last one ends in the evening in game.
This way, players are neither railroaded nor feeling like they're wasting time by spending a session in town just hanging out and shopping or whatever. There's always a sense of progression.
Gotta say, I love your little skits. I joined because of them and want to support you to keep making them. I go back to 1e and we could have used someone like you back then to help us with our game play.
Awesome, glad you're enjoying them. Thanks so much for becoming a channel member! 😀
A section of footage is repeated from 6:46-7:23
Probably this part is more important.
@@antoniosuanno5528 Good point!
Yes, he repeated himself. And he repeated himself.
Playing through the essentials kit adventures, I started with the Milestone levelling suggested in the module. I was concerned when my players reached the secondary quests that required completing 2 to reach the next level so I tracked their XP secretly. And by the time they finished the 1st secondary quest they.... hadn't reached enough XP to have reached another level. And they didn't even seem to mind that they had to complete 2 quests before they levelled up. When they are ready to level up I wait until they are back at the inn we are using as their home base. I describe the things that they learned as players (flanking, attacking flying creatures, never forgetting the rope, etc.) and they know that signals that they are ready to level up. It feels like a reward for good playing.
Wait... aren't DM's designing their adventures with both XP uses?
"Alright, you just slew your third cultist Blank the Blank, this is how much XP you gained."
"After bringing the beaten and bruised Cyanwrath back to camp, the guard captain thanks you. 'Let's take this monster to interrogation and see what information we can get out of him.' He stats. Alright group, add this much XP to your character sheet."
One of my groups are playing a very money driven campaign. So our dm decided that we would level up by paying gold which I've been quite enjoying because it adds a sense of deciding whether to prioritise getting equipment or levelling up and it's quite simple and easy.
how much do they cost? sounds like a great idea
@@Subicus69 2nd is 100gp, 3rd is 250gp and 4th is 1000gp. and it just gets more expensive the further you go.
It seems like it would be tricky for the DM to balance the proper amount of gold to give out. Like if they give out too much, you all could level super fast. I'm curious, do you find that the game has shifted more to just accumulating gold with that way of leveling up?
@@theDMLair well the entire campaign is about paying of debt on a house/base in a large town so it's been just trying to accumulate gold from the start and that's the main objective. And players could maybe level up quickly with balancing issues and the players strictly saving gold for levelling but I think most groups will realise that they should still be buying equipment like armour and better weapons. But the first few levels are easy to pay for but it gets alot more expensive so it will be hard to level quickly past level 4.
I've heard of the Gold for Exp method before. It gives the players some more control in when they level up or not, adds a real use for gold from adventuring, and incentivizes the players to explore everywhere in the dungeon to find all the money (and other valuables) that they can. Suddenly the painting that the DM mentioned gets revisited, and the players appraise it to see if it is worth the trouble of carrying back to town.
I recommend using encumbrance (Or a variant item tracking sheet like the one that the Dm Lair worked up awhile back) with this experience system.
Another Pro and Con to Milestone: With good build-up getting a level after an intense encounter can feel sooo much more narratively rewarding than just randomly getting a level like half a session before said encounter. It can however cause a bit of a rush towards the current objective, players can get too busy chasing the goal to stop and smell the flowers so to speak.
Back when D&D was ‘cool’ exp was awarded for treasure collected and for possession of magic items. The idea was to promote the dungeon crawl to obtain the treasure over wholesale slaughter. Heck most encounters in old school D&D were deadly, one shot instakill, unrecoverable save failure. We avoided combat as much as possible, we knew a single kobold could lead us into a TPK easily.
5e has nerfed the threat so much that players can be murder hobos, because nothing but the most deadly CR encounters risk annihilation. I really enjoy running 5e, and my players have a lot of fun. But I have blended the old school powerful into the 5e game, so there isn’t a walk off win at every encounter. They have to think, plan, and execute carefully, or just avoid the fight altogether. So in the end, they earn XP for using their heads more than their weapons.
I can't love this comment, only like it. Yes, first edition had more dangerous encounters. I watch videos talking about making your challenge ratings too high. Well, guess what, retreat is always an option (or should be). I also remember that fighters would gain more xp for killing monsters. They were better armored, had more hit points, did more damage. What's a magic user going to do to gain xp before fireball?
Love this system, I had no idea it was a thing. Got the mental image of a bunch of xp flying out of a treasure chest vintage videogame style...and I like it.
One big concern i have about lots of crazy powerful enemies and encounters is that players will spend even more time than they do now discussing and planning. The concept sounds great in theory (use smart tactics!) but in practice it can easily lead to a slow and boring game where players spend most of the time discussing and deciding upon options instead of in the thick of action.
I was gonna say, I was surprised DM Lair didn't address "GP = XP" because that was (and still is) a great method of getting players to choose smart tactics and parley over just attacking everything, while keeping that "watch the progress bar fill" feeling. Honestly I wish that D&D had kept that as the default.
@@thegneech course if GP = XP then there are a few issues
any mission that doesn't involve gold is instantly so much less appealing.
and it also incentives criminal behavior. thieving, mugging etc.
Personally, I'd say that "milestone" vs "XP" levelling depends partly on your campaign and partly on your players.
The DM in my current game uses a variant where everyone gets the same amount of XP at the end of each session, so it's mainly XP levelling but with a lot of the equality of progression which exists in milestone levelling. It works for us.
(As I understand it, there's a certain amount of XP gained per encounter - adjusted for the number of players - and for each major accomplishment in the game each session, then that XP is divided by the number of players in the game to determine how much each player earned that session).
Our particular group doesn't do a lot of in-depth role-playing and the DM hasn't awarded XP for it yet, that I know of.
Oh, and I got to use Thunderwave for the first time ever, last session and terrified the goblins (what was left of them) out of their tiny little wits... which was a good thing since I was dropped to 1 HP shortly after that. :)
I make give my players more xp for following the story and doing smart things then when the kill stuff so I can use xp and they won’t be murder hobos.
*That Just Sounds Like Milestone But With Extra Steps*
I’m running a campaign now and using milestone leveling because in my last campaign my players on the way home after a quest where one of them died. Decided to stop and look for enemies to kill Just so they could hit the next level. Completely ruined the atmosphere and made the death feel irrelevant.
This isn't a problem if you handle it right with the tools available. Characters wanting to hone their skills on some hapless creatures in the forest is plausible, but it will probably change their alignments. So let them follow through with it and see how their characters change. If they stop RPing properly and go totally meta, point that out and ask them why character A is behaving this way. Gently push them to RP the situation through properly.
As a player, my preferred method is when the DM uses a hybrid system. You primarily reward players with milestone leveling, but certain things such as when the party succeeds at something by a great group roleplay, you give everyone there at the session some experience points. Eventually you’ll end up gaining an extra level or two because of it.
Just a note on the "railroading" effect milestone has: If you can give XP for a random encounter, you can give a level for a random milestone. As a player - milestone leveling not only curbs the murder-hobo tendencies - it also keeps me focus on actual things to do. It's not so much "I must go deal with the Frost Giant threat to get to Level10." It's more forcing us to look at our to do and prioritizing it. The DM might not have *planned* on us being the only ones to bring peace between the shapeshifters and the miners - it had nothing to do with the campaign. But we got advancement just the same.
Because again: if you can give XP for a random encounter, you can give a level for a random milestone.
I prefer a hybrid leveling system: Primarily experience from defeating enemies(doesn't require actual killing), but also can get experience from little side quests (such as helping a little old lady do something), but also if they do something really crucial for the main overarching campaign then they get an additional level, finally can also earn experience from roleplaying and haggling/speaking with various NPCs.
We use the "DM says we can level up because yes" way, always works.
Thats basically what i do as a DM. its been 3 sessions, yall go ahead and level up. Helps me move the story along since I tend to make homebrew monster's too strong 😅
3:52 actually my players often don't kill enemies if I ever make them anything more than a mindless mosnter. If they talk and aren't pure evil players will usually at the very least have second thoughts about killing them. And I use XP levellng in my games
my issue with milestone leveling is that we’ve been playing on and off for two years (at least a years worth of sessions though) and we’re nearing level five. i don’t think it’s my dm’s fault i honestly think he just forgets so we started bugging him abt it every single session haha
I’ve used XP before, and when I do, I award 120% XP for an encounter defeated without killing. Negotiations, knockouts and jailing, etc.
I used to run milestone. After the 100th session of my players asking "when do we level up next" I changed to xp and never looked back.
I give xp for encounters completed, using a handy excel spreadsheet that someone else on the internet made that does all my work for me. They get xp for milestones as well. Takes a couple of seconds and gives a real sense of progression. No extra work, less annoyance and my players much prefer it.
Dude, this is by far the most useful (for me) vid so far, you can see the dm experience talking
I have to say, I'm totally in agreement with milestone being the superior method overall. I've always used milestone until recently, but decided to try giving XP a try during a Lost Mines of Phandelver game recently. Matching to a module means I can't give out a ton of XP for things other than combat without having to re-balance the entire module, and I've noticed a definite shift in my player's mentalities towards combat and NPC interaction. Most of the benefits you can get from giving XP for other tasks can also be made bu just providing inspiration, loot, and so on.
That said, I think XP leveling has its place too. After we finish LMoP, we'll be going straight into Dungeon of the Mad Mage, and because of the presence of the portals to skip between floors it feels like there isn't really a fair way to do milestones in that setting.
I've used both milestone and XP leveling, sometimes both in the same campaign. In this one in particular I'm doing, I had them milestone leveling up to 5th level and when the game opened up into the more "open", explorative aspect I switched it over to XP because in a sandbox environment you can't set story milestones if you don't really know what the party might be up to.
1st off: woo cameo cat! Didn't exp leveling start from the original goal of collecting loot and spending it? Because I think I heard somewhere that at some point it got shortcuted down to just killing. I'm on the side of milestones myself where I just set a number of obstacles they overcome to reach the level goals. (For example the players need to get 5 steps toward whatever plot they choose to pursue. For some great or amazing roleplaying I will give 2 steps or like .3 toward the milestones since my players like a rough progression bar to look at for reference instead of broad goals like "end the influence of the evil magic urn to reach level 3.") But good vid.
Not sure, but I do know that in the early days you did get XP from getting loot. That's one reason that players would want to steal from like every NPC in town (and maybe kill them too).
@@theDMLair I played in a game where we could only level by paying a trainer to train us up to the next level. But we had to keep our reputation decent since the trainer didn't want to have a prized student dragging the classes rep through the mud.
Interesting, I use XP myself but I basically do the same thing. An NPC proposes a problem and when they solve it, they receive XP, if they do secundary goals that are beneficial, they also get XP (like finding a key item for later or not starting a bar fight), the XP they get is always the standart for their level (aka what an appropiate level monster would give, so at level 1 a CR 1 monster) except if the objective was particularly hard or easy, in which case I just multiply/divide XP appropietly by an even number (the idea is to always have XP be a multiple of 100, that way is very easy to calculate stuff but it still give players the psychological effect of using big numbers).
@@theDMLair in the early days you got XP for everything. There are charts 4 XP for killing for XP for Luke for XP for interacting with townsfolk 4 XP for defeating traps literally everything gave your characters XP if the dungeon master was following all the rules which were an insane amount ( almost no DM's followed all these rolls because there was just way too many of them)
Xp used to be gold. U would spend gold to level
I've been doing this sort of thing for years. Rewarding things such as successfully picking locks, convincing NPCs, etc. One of my players chose to play a travelling doctor who went around helping and befriending people.
The comment about killing everything because they though they was running EXP hurt me since I hate Murder Hobo's and will leave a group if all of them are murder Hobo (1 I can handle by having the rest of the group get on my side or just watch them get killed).
We took a guy prisoner for information and he beg us to spare him, I did swear to turn him over to the police if, he told us everything and he did so I honored my oath and turn him in (Do the Rogue suggest just killing him)...
I think the last 2 session have been diplomatic resolving issues even with the Betrayer going up and kicking a Non-hostile Bullywug in the face. - would have left her to die if the Bullywug had demanded her head.
All in the group share EXP so even players who have to miss a session due to falling ill etc isn't getting punished, do Role playing gives its own experince (Goblin + Marilith) :p
Yes, I'm happy to have had very few if any muder hobos in my groups. :D
I had the opposite epiphany. I started my GM career with milestone leveling.
I thought XP leveling lead to murder hobos and really only encouraged one type of game. I thought it turned the game into a big murder parade and that milestone was much more refined and nuanced.
And then I tried XP and holy crap. I was wrong.
XP leveling (specifically xp for gold) was such an eye opener. I could run truly open world games without coming up with arbitrary goals to level people up. I could stop plotting everything out to pace the game and let players motivate themselves. It was liberating as a DM.
I stopped designing encounters that were level appropriate and players didn't have to get through the encounters to level up. They could simply go around and continue on their way. Or cheese to their heart's content.
My players have never attempted to war crime kids because we talked about it before the game started. If they had, I'd reduce their level and make them earn it back.
I don't worry about players forgetting what XP they are supposed to be. Either another player can help them or they just don't get that XP.
It makes it easier to run mid-level parties because people are allowed to interact with the world at whatever level they are comfortable with. They don't have to face the main milestones with the big boys to level up.
Before watching this video I'm just going to leave this comment here and say: I think milestone leveling makes more sense. Not simply because it seems to potentially encourage more roleplay and discourages being a murder hobo, but from games I've always played it always seemed like there was a fix amount of encounters for combat making it so that a specific session or campaign will always give the same amount of xp every time, usually resulting in at least one level. Also Iirc the 3.5 rulebook stated that a player couldn't double level in a single session anyway if they happened to be able to actually kill enough to go up two levels, it would simply stop at 1 point away of gaining that second level and most DMs I've played with dont usually allow the leveling process during a session but only before or after it. In essence that basically makes the old system a milestone system anyway.
The other advantage of XP leveling - is that it ensures the DM has a guide of how much challenge and reward is supposed to exist in the frame of a level.
As opposed to what I have seen where a DM will throw a whole level's worth of enemies into a single encounter, with no increase in reward over a baseline, same as if it had been a cakewalk.
As a player I was only recently introduced to milestone leveling, and it's SO MUCH better. To me, XP has always felt like a ball and chain that just weighs everything down. And it's so slow. I've never been in an XP driven campaign that leveled at anything other than glacial pace. And unless your DM uses some sort of bonus XP system outside of the normal rules, it outright punishes players for actually roleplaying. I'm now back in an XP driven campaign to introduce some new players to DnD and it feels like beating my head against a wall.
A little late on this, but a couple counterpoints: I've gone dozens of sessions at low levels without ever levelling up because the DM didn't think we had earned it yet. Milestones can feel super arbitrary. In addition to that, it can also disincentivize anything other than pushing through the main story and can even lead to some frustration if half the party wants to spend half the session RP-ing in town or working on a side quest but the others want to push on with the main story missions.
Once we discovered Milestone leveling was a thing, my group pretty much unaminously agreed that it's better than XP leveling. Milestone leveling removes that 'videogame' mentality of "So what are you going to do during downtime?" "Well I'm just gonna go out and find some goblins to kill so I can grind for levels."
I think it's a good idea to level up the party as a reward for making progress in the main story in the campaign and as for any sidequests that might prop up, I would reward players with extra equipment or treasure that they might've missed out on if they just followed the main quest, rather than levelling up, it encourages players to explore your world and lessens the feeling of being railroaded because they get something out of deviating a little from the main story.
We did the same thing as well, but mostly out of laziness. We don't use encumbrance rules either, as both require more bookkeeping than we want to bother with.
"Well I'm just gonna go out and find some goblins to kill so I can grind for levels."
"I don't award xp for narrative kills. However if you'd like to take time away from the group and everyone in the party to play through your character seeking out goblin encampment after goblin encampment to try and grind levels, we can pause the game and do that at the cost of every else's fun. Is that what you want?"
If players have a videogame mentality when it comes to killing to get xp, it's because you've made the most valuable efficient source of xp killing. That's on you.
I feel so unique and rare now. Thank you.
I use Exp, and give out Exp for traps, rping, killing, and everything else in between
Pretty easy solution here. Encounter xp. Spread the xp of an encounter evenly as it is after all a team effort. You take the total xp of the encounter and divide it by number of players
Just wanna throw out a clarification: at least as far as the 5e Dungeon Master’s Guide is concerned, this would be “Level Advancement without XP.” It offers a “Milestone” system, and that is actually meant to supplement XP rewards.
The way the 5eDMG talks about milestone, it’s awarding players for reaching milestones in the story, with XP or other rewards, like the benefits of a rest or charges of magic items. This is in tandem with traditional XP rewards for defeating enemies.
I also wanna throw out some pros and cons for each system, at least that I’ve noticed throughout my experience with the game.
TRADITIONAL XP
Pros:
- Gives some players a sense of tangible progress
- Gives some players the feeling that their progress is a result of their own hard work
- Some players will remember more often than the DM
- More fun for older players
Cons:
- Encourages some players to get XP ‘by any means necessary’
- Players May assume that combat means progress (which should only be true about a third of the time)
- Might lead to party imbalances
- Some players will forget more often than the DM
LEVEL ADVANCEMENT WITHOUT XP
Pros:
- Easier for DMs to track and control the party level
- Easy for infrequent or intentionally short games
- Allows the party to advance through any of the three pillars
- Easier for newer players
Cons:
- Some players might feel like they’re only allowed one path to advance (players needn’t take any path, it’s the illusion of choice that creates player agency)
- Less keen players might get frustrated at the lack of visible progress (those less involved in the story)
As a final addendum, my favorite advancement system is the “Three Pillars XP” UA system. It needs some refinement, but it works on an easy 100 XP per level, scales based on the party’s tier of play, and gives tangible rewards for all three pillars of the game (combat, roleplay, and exploration). it also suggests how to modify it to accommodate only two pillars if one just wouldn’t fit for the type of story you’re telling. Granted, I don’t use it very often both because it’s UA, and most of my players prefer the standard system. I just strike a good middle ground by awarding XP like Fallout 4 does (practically anything that takes a players time/skill, with beefier bonuses for things related to the main story)
I generally prefer XP leveling, but it's been a great many years since I just used "Kill XP".
Traps survived (preferably circumvented), objectives accomplished, Cool Stuff/Great Ideas (multilateral thinking), player schemes set in motion (guild building and other forms of entrepreneurialism), and so on, and so forth all give XP rewards with some relation to challenge and party level, but tracking (and approximating) the XP rewards they get does let me somewhat manage their progression, and of course, no giving XP out mid-session. Some times, they don't even get XP at the end of the session, if they're ending on a cliffhanger/in combat/etc. - but then they usually get it immediately after the situation is resolved next time.
IMO, Milestones are best used with highly inconsistent groups, like Adventurer's League and the like, where you can't be sure who you'll be playing with from time to time, but with a reliable group, I still prefer XP leveling.
Also, setting up to run a 1e D&D campaign; milestones are completely useless for that, seeing as every class has a different XP progression table anyway. :P
This is my plan: Group exp, meaning there is one exp counter, and the GM has it behind the screen. I also plan to grant exp based on actions according to the theme. If the theme is Heroic, killing a villainous monster will give exp, turning a villian good will grant more, and killing a villager will grant negative exp. It's an open world, and goofing off can be rewarding.
I will be testing everything in Campaign Zero which will be 100% dmpcs and no actual players. This will make sure everything works, and cause problems for the players of Campaign One: Heroic to solve, as well as their own storyline.
XP Leveling: Fun to track and see how close you're getting to the next level, rewards players who attend every session, makes leveling feel like more of an accomplishment when you are the only person to level up after a certain session. Everyone at a session gets the same amounts, but players who miss a session get nothing (or get a side session of what their character was doing elsewhere, to get the same XP as the others)
Milestone Leveling: Everyone at the same levels, but getting constantly asked by players "Did we level this session?" I'm using Milestone in my current game, and Milestones are useful when your campaign has a fully planned story where you can identify where the milestones will be. Harder to keep track of if you are playing a more open world "go where the players take you" type game, or aren't a DM who fully plans multiple sessions in advance.
I am very much pro regular attendance but stuff happens for adults. You aren't rewarding people who attend regularly, you are punishing those that have something important come up.
@@Serutans and I've been that player as well. My work schedule makes it difficult to be at every session, but I appreciate the disparity between myself as a semi-regular and the players in the group who are there every week.
I also appreciate the opportunity that it gives for some 1-on-1 roleplay with myself and the DM to earn that XP in other ways, explaining why my character was not present for the main campaign session
Not myself, but one system a friend used was downtime levelling. They didn't get any XP while out adventuring, but only after getting back to a safe location to reflect on what they had accomplished. Then he asked them to sum up what they had done, and gave XP based on that, heavily rounded (usually up). I think he only really counted half or quarter levels, or something like that, since even a short excursion or mini quest would rarely be less than that.
He also told me he once gave a Fighter one use of an extra attack (one level before getting it) while fighting a boss, since the previous attack almost killed it, and narratively resolved the fight with that new attack. And the party got an instant level up. After that he sometimes let them use abilities from the next level if they were close to getting that level, if it was suited the story, since they thought it was a cool preview of the next level as well as a mid-battle powerup.
Also, I like the Pathfinder 2e system. I was like FINALLY someone gets it!!! Seeing level 20 is now an option. Basically every level is 1,000 xp. Of course, the hight your level the less xp you get for weaker enemies. But if you're challenges correlate to your level the same, you will level up at the same rate (more or less) per level. I never understood why you get penalized twice for leveling in classic XP system: CRs have to be higher to relate to your new power (this makes sense and PF2e embraces this) BUT you also have to obtain more XP between each level. 300, then 600 more, then 1800 more, then you have to more than double what you had, then it gets slower and slower. I get what theyre going for (the better you get at something the slower the returns become) but dang. THIS is why most players never see their character get past 8-10. It literally can take more than a year at higher levels to go to the next. Now, you're theory craft build is a possibility. Now you can enjoy your character's capstone ability (or cry as you realize some classes have crap capstone... looking at you Ranger and Warlock).
i am currently using milestone in both of my campaigns and I am planning to implement a lot of what he said about it in them. thanks Luke
I am a DM for my son and 2 of his friends (all 15 when they started) who have been playing for about a year now. I use the XP leveling. The first game, my son and one of his friends did capture enemies if possible to turn into the city magistrate for rewards and questioning. They did that without me suggesting it.
ive always despised xp leveling, and the grinding involved. milestone makes a lot of sense, as they dont have to bother with nitty gritty of experience, but rather story progression. in my rpg, ive lumped all EXP money and player progression into one unit, called favors. players earn personal favors by doing things, and can turn around and exchange them for the 'time' it took or takes to do something, like gain skill points or to craft equipment. that way my players can grow how they like, and if i want a more challenging encounter, i can easily beef up the baddies however i need.
I'm still very much a newbie - I've only been playing for about two months now - and our group plays milestone. Although I think there are intriguing points about XP levelling, I can definitely see its pitfalls! I think one thing I would struggle with is speaking up to make sure I get my actions outside as I'm one of the quieter ones of the group. Talking over Zoom can make it more difficult to be heard than being in the same room, I think.
Great video!
I've always ran games pretty much like this just so the party stayed the same lvl. Thanks for the vid man.
My DM incorporates milestone leveling, but in order to make sure that encounters still feel rewarding, added a new mechanic that lets you accumulate little collectables that can be offered to the gods for tiny boons.. or hoarded to be offered en masse for something better.
I think it was a good choice, because it also helps make the religions of the setting more relevant to the party.
Milestone leveling may be convenient for the DM. When I'm the player, I'm not fond of it, especially when my character level is low.
With milestone leveling:
The game seems less realistic. "The battle with the troll did nothing to improve my skills, but now that I've brought that letter to the town mayor, I'm suddenly much better at using my sword."
The satisfaction of character building for players can be delayed, (especially at lower levels), if the milestone is too difficult or takes too long.
Players have one less strategy option to choose from (especially at lower levels). "There is nothing in this world I can do to improve before the boss fight. If only there was some way I could practice to improve."
Indirectly, it gives the DM more control of the story at the expense of the players. For example, it somewhat disincentivizes some party members to follow another into battle to get something special for the one. Instead of getting an XP benefit, the other party members get nothing at all.
The focus becomes even more about following a pre-determined plotline, and less about the characters themselves, their experience, and their growth.
Player chosen objectives have less meaning (if they not the ones given by the DM). "Well, you can offer your services to the king, but it could help you improve as an adventurer, even if you spent a year in his service."
Exploration becomes less meaningful when not centered on the pre-conceived plot. "You can undo the traps and get the treasure, but you won't learn from the experience." "Well, okay, then, not much point in having fun exploring, I guess."
It makes the open-world gaming style feel closed.
It makes a closed-world gaming style feel suffocating.
Random encounters become less meaningful and beneficial. Yet, they can be a source of great memories.
I'm using the XP system that Adam Koebel used in his Jace Beleren must die game. It's an XP system hack from the Blades in the Dark RPG.
Experience Points
At the end of a session, answer the following questions, player by player, as a group.
For each questions, mark "XP:". When you've marked 4 + your current level in "XP", your level increases.
- Did you overcome a challenging enemy?
- Did you learn something important/significant about another player character?*
- Did you discover a secret or piece of interesting lore?
- Did you express a unique aspect of your class, race, or background?
- Did you express your alignment in a way that complicated your character's life?
*Something that defines their character or is unique to themselves. That character's player should be the one to initiate this.
Nice thumbnail and great topic today. Giving a special perk for taking care of things help out sometimes.
I use xp system because i am a men of numbers, but if a monster awards 1k exp for being killed, and my players resolve the encounter in any other way (diplomacy, stealth, bribe or any other clever way) i give them the same 1k exp.
If a dungeon has a total of 5k exp beetwen all its encounters and such, and my players find a really clever way of bypassing the dungeon, like teleportation or something, i give them ALL the dungeon xp.
If i have a session without any combat (no thanks, but sometimes happens), but my players actually achieve something in the session, then i give them xp too.
So i realize i am using a numeric milestone system. Thank you Luke! your content is really helpful, keep the good work going.
i'll just say that the problem with milestones is that does not give the sema rewards for exploring the world or just taking secondary misions, and maybe, the party want to do that. Maybe is getting out of the way to solve a backstory storyline earlier (wich inb my case usually leads them again to the main plot because i like to have it very tied as a DM so the players feel like the main objective is important to them) or some minor thing, like they defeated the dragon who was tormenting the town, but now they wanna help the town to regrow again before chasing the next dragon. Or maybe they just wanna explore the world a little bit, or they wanna help with some war that was ocurring in the back just to flesh the world. Milestone leveling would not usually reward for that, or will reward them to much so when they took again the main plot, they would be overleveled. ¿what i do? i give my players fragments of milestone. (note: i usually play 3.5 and never start at level 1, usually 2 or 3 depending on what concept characters brought to me, so they can start multiclased or with a level adjustment race to flesh out their characters better) so they need half their leven rounded up fragments of milestone to reach a new level. So, if they are level 5 and get 3 fragments, now thry are level 6. if they have 2 fragments, reach level 6 by normal milestones, they just keep their 2 fragments. So they are growing by doing things that are not the main plot, but not to fast, they have their treasure reward or whatever and this fragment milestones, that gives a level now and then but not enough to overlevel my campaing that much that is hard to re-balance for me. And, now i then, i plan a envcounter underleveled, so they can really feel that they had evolved, between the hard fights, wich now they feel how dangerous are compared to the rest of the world, and feel more that this growing aside the main plot matters, because if they go aside to become stronger, and all trhat they encounter is their level or higher, they will feel the advancement is empty and not real. So if they go out they way to grow a little more, be kind and let them see how stronger they got from time to time, friends.
Hi Luke, I also was a Dungeonmaster in high school but I took a 20-year vacation from doing it. Several weeks ago I started again after not even playing for almost 20 years. Last week I switched the party to milestone leveling and although we are all new to it, the entire group seems to really like the idea. (one veteran player in the group) Anyway, great content and I'm thrilled to see that you have a positive take on a change I had already implemented. I was sure hoping that you weren't going to say milestones wreck your campaign LOL!
I go for Milestones adjusted by the ingenuity at which players overcame challenges / thought through what was going on.
This is a very good point. I gave my players exp for different actions, like overcoming monsters and problems for 20 years. I recently switched to milestone-leveling and it works much better now. I don’t see the benefits of exp per action/whatever anymore. It is fun for a while but it wears off.
You make some good points about milestone. My only problem with the few milestone campaigns I've been in is that it seems to de-incentivize combat. As combat is my favorite part of D&D, (actual combat, not murder-hoboing) anything that diminishes the amount of fighting would make me far less likely to be/stay interested in a campaign. Without challenging combat, there doesn't ever really feel like anything is ever at risk. How can someone be invested in a story if there is so little risk that they know they will succeed in the end, with only a handful of somewhat challenging bosses along the way? Again, that's just my personal bias as a more combat-oriented player.
Personally, I still use XP levelling with rewards for rp etc. FOR ALL PLAYERS. My players just think it is much more rewarding and that it adds to the freedom of an open game I create.
I use a party XP system, I just add up the XP pools of each member and they all level up at the same time, saves me from having to split the XP between players and keeps things going.
Might need to try that. Thanks for posting
XP leveling takes gives a sense of fairness to the players. It also takes prevents players from asking if the level up after every session, which to me is a relief. I could probably think of some more if I sat for a bit but most of them would revolve around the idea of taking control from the DM(though not really because I still have control of which monsters they fight). This lack of control can be a bulwark to help defend newer DM's while more experienced ones circumvent it or use it for a fuller use. XP leveling also makes side quests seem more impactful since you are at least gaining some xp from the fights.
In the oldest versions of the game, the primary source of experience was gold brought out of the dungeon. Combined with the greater fragility of PCs, this lead to combat being avoided.
I initially liked leveling up via experience and thought it was the way to go. After playing a milestone game I found there was no going back. It allows a DM to make more interesting encounters and it makes completing quests and events feel like much more of an accomplishment. My favorite DM tied leveling up via milestone to how characters were played. Our Paladin visited a shrine and was called by the deity to make an oath. After doing so, he reached 3rd? level. My character got revenge for the death of another player's previous PC and got a level up. It make the event's resolution much better.
I originally cut my teeth on the various Palladium systems years ago before then moving on to D&D 2E/3E/3.5 and then other systems over the years. That definitely tinted my view on XP since I originally came from a system that specifically gave XP for using skills, problem-solving, playing in character, and playing in character, and specifically for avoiding unnecessary violence with a relatively small amount for defeating foes.
I'm experimenting with milestoneleveling variations. Like including mini milestones that will give the players something like half a level in order to give the players some sense of progression instead of just jumping them up one level after they finished a quest. I also did some quests with smaller "bonus" mini milestones in quests for example for actually solving the puzzle instead of just smashing the door open or for also saving the other prisoners from that orc prison instead of just themselves. (Of course I just adjust the future encounters to higher levels, if they actually get an additional level up, but so far their reaction to getting rewarded out of the order for extra efford war really good. I also tried to give each player some kind of personal quest (that ideally ties in with their background) which would gain them one level personally if they complete it, but that needs some refinement still, as I often end up rewarding just one player for stuff that was actually a group efford.
My group does bi-session leveling. Yeah, it doesn’t make much mechanical sense sometimes, but it’s fun because we know that we’ll get to high levels soon enough so we enjoy ourselves
Gearshift leveling: every level is 100 XP. The GM plans how many sessions they feel comfortable with the party spending at that level, divide 100 by that number, and award that much XP after each session. THEN use a simple XP multiplier based on how challenging the session was, whether that means combat or not. For example: x0 for downtime x0.5 for preparing and light combat ×1 for adventuring and tackling problems x1.5 for bosses and crazy over the top sessions. Suggest optional objectives to bump the multiplier up, like clearing a whole area without resting, or saving all the prisoners. Easy to track and control, but also lets players know how close they are, and encourages fun risks and smart play.
My most notable experience with this was from when I was running XP leveling, as it was what was written into the modules I was running, but I was buffing the monsters A Lot as my party was pretty beefy. Thusly, they were earning A LOT of XP, and leveling Really Quickly...
So I started just... not, giving out levels until we had a few sessions at each one.
I thought switching to Milestone helped me keep the cadence of advancement under control really well, though I'm still glad I started with XP leveling to have a guide for how fast I wanted levels to go when I was just starting out with 5e.
I explicitly use milestone/arc completion leveling. After several rounds of combat or skill usage, you'd naturally grow in your skills. It doesn't bog down the GM's duties by assigning XP values to the plethora of monsters the PCs slay or the actions that PCs take. I also think this helps with pacing for long-running campaigns and gives a better sense of player progression.
How to use experience points system as DM.
Step 1. Ignore xp listed in monster stat blocks.
Step 2. Determine about how many sessions you want to pass between levels.
Step 3. Determine the amount xp it will take for the players to level up.
Step 4. Divide xp needed by sessions, to get xp per session.
Step 5. End each session by recounting the top 2-5 accomplishments of the party, attaching xp numbers to each event, that roughly add up to the amount calculated in step 4, more if they were very productive, less if they weren't.
Note that it is not a long a complicated process, especially if the players haven't leveled up since last time you did step 4.
Basically you are just ending the session on a high note saying "I thought this was cool, here take a reward"
Takes like 2-3 minutes of prep, and adds like 30 seconds of wrap up.
And no matter what you do, no matter how much some accomplishment was just one players accomplishment. KEEP XP EVEN!!!! No one should ever be a different level from the rest of the party.
"Rogue, your clever scam was brilliant, you earned the group 500 xp each today!" See, it is that easy.
The goal in my campaigns is never to have the players follow the story, get to the next story beat. My goal is for my players to create a story of their own, they can do anything they want, go anywhere they want, help any side they want, and comfortably know, they will be getting xp every session.
I think with not using xp you give away a really powerful tool to fine tune and flavor your game. Of course you need to think about what you want the experience of play to be/what behavior you want to encourage or discourage. But you need to only do that once at the start of the campaign. You only need to figure out how much an average Encounter/Obstacle/Problem is worth once and then it's literally just:
"You convinced the king, gain x amount XP"
"You figured out who the murderer is, gain x XP"
"You escaped the trap chamber, that was filling up with water, gain x XP"
If you want to encourage exploration maybe give out x/2 XP for finding secrets/treasures. Or maybe you want to encourage your players to help people or solve problems, you can give out XP for that. Or for advancing the main plot (which is basically what milestones do). It doesn't have to be as complicated or as much work as a lot of people seem to make it. You can also do fun stuff like "You need to escort those 5 NPCs but you only get XP for the ones that actually survive". With milestones it's just whatever, we'll get our levels anyway.
If you don't want your players to kill random NPCs, don't give out XP for killing stuff that isn't actually bad guys.
And yes, the direct connection between action and reward is a really great thing from a Design perspective. Or having a number that ticks up. And I don't think the math of most RPGs is so tight that it really matters weather the PCs are a bit under or over leveled. If you don't want your players to level up in a dungeon you can always say that that's only possible in town. Maybe they even need to talk to some Expert to learn new Skills or Spells.
Yesterday my party, after some poor planning on my end, were faced with a massive slime. My rule lawyer wizard inquired about the damage the slime does. Im still new to dnd, lore behind everything, and how many things work. I told him it was acid damage. He got the players into his plan of teleporting away just after casting firebolt, blowing up the slime and escaping with the artifact. i told them how explosive this slime was and how many commoners are in the area. They found it as a great idea. And thats the story of how i technically ran a campaign to level 50 in 4 sessions. They killed over 130 million people and destroyed an entire planet. Im still impressed that this is not even the craziest thing ever.
While watching, I thought of an advantage for XP.
I recently started playing an XP game after 15 years of milestone... and found that I am more engaged with XP.
But the advantage is that you implement QUESTS OBJECTIVES.
1. You can kill everyone and get the standard XP.
2. You can capture them get a bonus for their bounties.
3. You can parley (skill check) a secret quest ‐ and help them for a larger bonus.
One thing I have thought about doing is dividing experience based on how many players there are. So if I have a monster worth 900 exp points, and I had nine players, each player would get 100 exp points. I have also toyed with subtracting exp if a player does something like kill a non-hostile villager. I tend to think of it as the laws of the jungle: 1. Kill for food.
2. Kill if you are in danger of being killed.
3. Do not kill just to get a trophy.
One alternative that can make milestone leveling feel more rewarding is the following: roughly calculate how many sessions it should take the players to achieve the milestone goal (don't worry about being precise, this method works regardless of how accurate your assessment was - but don't tell the players how many are needed to level, lest they stall on purpose prior to a final BBEG encounter). Then, whenever a player does something amazing or cool, reward them one 'legendary moment' token. If a player accumulates a number of legendary moment tokens equal to what you considered the number of sessions needed to accomplish the milestone, allow that player to level up early (this also helps make the party a bit stronger before that final BBEG encounter). However, after the milestone is achieved, everyone else levels up as normal (making the party once again all the same level prior to the next part of the campaign). Furthermore, everyone (including anyone who used their tokens to level up early) can 'spend' their legendary moment tokens in their 'base' city or town for rewards granted by the DM, representing their growing fame and renown. Examples might include audiences with major NPC's, rewards of treasure or minor magic items, cheaper prices for supplies, NPC fans or followers, etc. Then this system restarts for the next phase of the campaign (with all players having 0 remaining legendary moment tokens). Easy for the DM, yet it still rewards individual players for exceptional play, without making the entire campaign imbalanced (perhaps a few sessions might feature an extra powerful player, but just when the party might need it), and can be fun to roleplay the turning in of legendary moment tokens after the campaign.
I play in a westmarches game and we use sessions to track levels. I've found that even with xp being separated from killing stuff that players still legitimately gravitate into different camps- we've even formed groups called /murdergang/ and /nicegang/ and its not at all seen as "well murdergang are bad RPers and Nicegang are good RPers." If anything its become a disparity on how to solve problems. When you spare everything and try to use them to further other objectives- for example sparing bandits and then setting up a jail and turning them into a workgang we've found that we're encountering a problem almost similar to ancient Rome where the things we've captured and tried to use productively have begun to outnumber the amount of things we can control. Even though this subjugated giant would be a great boon in construction work the process of keeping the other workers in line with him there as well is just too much to handle. The major benefit to /murdergang/ is that practically speaking if you do a good enough job murdering everything you can actually just solve problems then and there. Both sides have been able to get things done effectively very well- and sparing the prisoners actually creates MORE WORK for the DM than just counting up EXP because you have to consider the outcome of all those loose threads left in the world.
I have been watching many videos about DnD and came up with various ideas for sessions one of them being that i will use an exp pool for the party. I was thinking of: letting them buy lvls/spells and maybe feats with it but as the group contributes to the pool the amount per lvl is higher. The amount for spells bought will depend on lvl of the character and spell lvl . That way finding spellbooks will still be a reward. Still working on the idea as i am aware it is quite ambitious and much work to balance the exp price of spells and feats as well as the exp amount for quests.
Luke: "How many groups of players do you know that just knock bad guys out and turn them over to the authorities?"
Paladin: *Laughs in Lawful Good*
We use both, but we also use diminished mob exp and gold exp...in other words it balances out. We only play once a week if lucky, so we have a level exp/milestone increase (since retold...after four sessions, the party is only level 3 max).
The cool thing about milestone is we only allow leveling (after 10), to be done as an extended town/village visit where training with advanced teachers can be accessed.
I play RPGs using XP for over 20 years (mostly dnd).
Very few games I played had xp rewards directly attached to killing monsters.
I was either "every encounter combat/social/trap/puzzle/whatever would have a xp value and you get that xp no matter how you solved it."
or "the better you roleplay the more xp you get" (this one is bad, because that usually means the GM's favorite player)
or "the module has a bunch of objectives, each of them has an amount of xp value that you get when you do them"
PS: oh and the classic: xp = gold (this one backfired on me when I was 16; I put a golden statue that was too big to be carried in a dungeon... and the players broke it to little pieces so they could carry it)
Best two thing about quarantine:
1. Get to game whenever I want.
2. Watching Luke's hair grow.
Re: 2. He's looking more and more like the Barbarian every day... ;)
I do a combination of both Mildstone and XP leveling. I give them multiple ways to complete a set objective though. For example, my group is trying to escape from a slave mine. They can either sneak out, start a slave uprising, or use some gorilla tactics to take down the monsters that are enslaving everyone.
I've been DMing since the early 90s in Junior High. didn't use milestone leveling until started using 5e the fall of 2018. I love it. It makes everything easier. The players who I played with earlier to like it better as well (or at least they haven't complained).
Unfortunately, they are still Murderhobos
Best way I can think of to avoid railroading is having multiple ways to achieve and objective and just work those methods in as the game goes on so long and the major somewhat vague objective is met. For example the objective of ending a goblin threat and be done by diplomacy if the goblin leader is intelligent enough, it could also be taken care of by finding a way to direct the goblins to a new target so they give the quest giver some relief, then theres the tried and true method of sampling removing the goblins from the area via death and other means that some people may come up with that are either more or less sinister. Lastly outside of multiple way to complete an objective you can simply give your players multiple objectives as well, doesnt have to be some random guy they talk to who randomly asks for their aid. Could be a suspicious fellow that a player decides to tail or a bounty board as a mercenaries guild, could even be simply finding an object on the ground and attempting to track it back to its owner.