Why Black America “Ignored” The Princess and the Frog
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- Опубліковано 26 чер 2024
- I have a frog stuck in my throat from recording the voiceover but it was worth it.
New Twitter handle: @TooManyCrowns
Timestamps
0:00 - Intro
2:58 - Those Are Some Writing Words
14:04 - It's Not Easy Being Green
17:50 - O Holy White
22:29 - Revise, Revise, Revise (Your History)
27:41 - The Castle That Never Was
38:43 - Where To Go From Here (and Where We Already Went)
44:33 - Music Credits
Citations:
*Be careful on this first website for its slightly nsfw ads!
Prince, Shannon. “The Princess and the Frog and the Critical Gaze [Essay].” Racialicious, reuploaded by Intersection502, May 13, 2009,
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Washington, Julie. “‘The Princess and the Frog’ is under a microscope as viewers analyze how Disney portrays its first black heroine.” Cleveland, Dec. 5, 2009,
www.cleveland.com/movies/2009...
Hare, Breeana. “Parents: Disney’s ‘Princess’ is a hop toward progress.” CNN, Feb. 1, 2010,
www.cnn.com/2009/SHOWBIZ/Movie...
Mochama, Vicky. “Brandy’s Black Cinderella Made The Impossible Possible In Hollywood.” Refinery29, Feb. 12, 2021,
www.google.com/amp/s/www.refi...
Truth, Sojourner. “Ain’t I A Woman?” Reuploaded by National Park Service,
www.nps.gov/articles/sojourne...
Fischer, Neal. “Exclusive ‘Princess and The Frog’ Virtual Roundtable with Writer-Directors; Ron Clements and John Musker.” Film Monthly, March 13, 2010,
www.filmmonthly.com/interviews...
James, Kendra. “It's Possible: An Oral History of 1997's ‘Cinderella.’” Shondaland, Nov. 2, 2017,
www.shondaland.com/inspire/a1...
Gans, Andrew and Lefkowitz, David. “TV’s Cinderella Turns In Royal Ratings Performance.” Playbill, Nov. 5, 1997,
www.playbill.com/article/tvs-...
Noyer, Jérémie. “The Princess And The Frog’s Directors John Musker and Ron Clements take us to ‘the other side’ of animation!” Animated Views, June 1, 2010,
animatedviews.com/2010/the-pr...
Park, Andrea. “The Actress Who Voices Princess Tiana Asked Disney to Address Whitewashing Complaints.” Glamour, Sept. 25, 2018,
www.glamour.com/story/princes...
Sperling, Nicole. “‘Django Unchained’ was more than a role for Kerry Washington.” Los Angeles Times, Dec. 31, 2012,
www.latimes.com/entertainment...
Adrienne Warren singing Almost There:
• Adrienne Warren - "Alm...
Unfortunately, my two published short stories are currently unavailable for online reading at this time; I plan on finding a more accessible way to open them up again. I'm so sorry for the inconvenience! - Фільми й анімація
Closed captions are up! Funny how both Charlotte and Tiana kiss Naveen when they weren't princesses but only one of them stayed human. 🙃
I actually didn't know the fictional tribe in Frozen 2 was based off the real-life indigenous group, the Sámi, who are usually pale and blond. But the twist involving Elsa and Anna's mom was still pretty abrupt, especially because the first movie never implied she was Sámi at all. I thought the sequel darkened her skin and eyes but I misremembered. My bad!
Most black Americans associate fairytale royalty with European aesthetics because most of us, including me, have no actual connection to a motherland outside the US, since slavery erased cultures and family history. It's not my fault I don't know where my ancestors came from!
I know that there are non-African/non-American black people everywhere, but Naveen's voice actor was a *nonblack* Brazilian man. The creators literally said his ethnicity was made up. Hopefully the Tiana series can expand on his background in a more meaningful way.
As much as I like Kida and headcanon her as black, the creators never claimed she was and The PaTF's marketing partially rode on that title of "Disney's First Original Black Princess." Atlantis *probably* wouldn't be the best type of black princess representation though: It leaned into the "white savior" trope and Kida was sexualized to a questionable degree, like other visibly brown Disney women--including Jasmine, Esmeralda and Pocahontas.
Leah Chase's real-life story inspired the creators for Tiana and that's great! But I think they should've made a separate movie based on Chase's life that wasn't written as a fairytale. I would've loved to see that. I also love Tiana's character and I'm not denying the positive impact she has on women and girls for her work ethic. But it's also goofy to put down the more "traditional" princesses for lacking established careers. I thought the surface-level girlboss feminism era was over...
@E . A We'll respectfully agree to disagree on Turning Red 🤧
I think Charlotte stayed human because she loved Naveen, and Mama Odie was wrong.
I mean Rapunzel was also basically a slave sweeping floors and she was white
I am white slavic person, my ancestors were feudal slaves thruought most of our history until the 19th century.
@@toomanycrowns please only take this as a joke but I just kept arguing with you this entire video as if you were right next to me 😂😂😂😂 mainly because I am biased when it comes to this industry because this is my dream so I connect a lot with Tiana and I wouldn’t change a thing about the movies however a lot of your opinions are valid in reality when it comes to helping people in the real world are treated i’ve just been now learning that a lot of people are disheartened that there are people on television that don’t look like them I guess this was a obvious thing I should’ve known people would be pissed off about but I’ve grown up I guess you would put it color blind and it didn’t really matter to me that I never saw myself heck I still don’t see myself in media and when I do see myself were presented as being stupid and spoiled with no merit to any struggle however I never beat myself up about it I am make snarky comments and then I MoveOn because I still see myself in other ways Rapunzel was the most recognizable to my personality for years and I never noticed that her skin was way paler than mine I guess the point I’m trying to prove it is in my opinion the character of Tiana is such a strong character with the good over arcing arcing message for both her and Neveen that I didn’t really care that they were flux from most of the movie because the humanity overshadowed the frog aspect because at the end of color isn’t your race your character could be one thing and sound like another but as long as it fits it fits and I think the Raiders really made it work it’s just sometimes hit bumps in the road that that never got addressed so I am happy that you’ve decided to address some issues and annoyed that you would bring up things that I disagree with but that’s life so agree to disagree and keep making the videos because you seem like a very articulate and heard working person Who clearly has something to say and feel strongly about the things you care about it’s just I would say it needs a bit more work in my opinion🤙🏽🤙🏽🤙🏽
This isn't the first time I've come across the idea that Black girls and women would like to see themselves in escapist fantasy where a dark-skinned princess gets to be rescued from a tower by a chivalrous hero, but this video has done a fantastic job of fleshing out WHY. Blackness being shown as beautiful, Black womanhood being shown as entitled to vulnerability, etc. Also that really crucial line about being "cared for NOT at the expense of her internal strength". That's so important. There's a balance to walk with princess archetypes but it is possible to do in an empowering way. All that said, I was hooked two sentences in to each short story!! Thank you for writing/linking those!
It’s pretty much why I didn’t have a problem with Django Unchained’s handling of Hildi. Even if it’s not the most flattering portrayal of a woman, I very rarely see black women be the ultimate goal to a man, none the less a black man, in order to save her.
I feel like writers are overeager to show “strong, empowered” black female characters at the expense of fear, vulnerability, and relatable humanity.
They didn’t like it because Black people have frog lips Disney is racist instead of showing an African story they showed New Orleans poor girl with frog lips it’s racist
These "vulnerabilities" are actually realistic qualities to most men, we dont want to save a boss chick with attitude who doesn't need a man, we want a down to earth, reasonable, friendly and classy woman to be our bride. Tiana is the perfect example of a strong minded woman who can be gentle and caring when needed and show her backbone when disrespected, she's Fantastic.
@@flewis02 it's "realistic" qualities to men because men are not realistic people obviously
I always thought that Charlotte really wanted to help Tiana with her restaurant but Tiana is independent and prideful, her character would NOT have let her accept the help. (which is smart too, you never want someone to feel like they made you) That’s why Charlotte paid the exact amount her friend needed for a down payment when the opportunity arrived in the form of business- Tiana would cater her party. Tiana would not want to talk about what happened with the realtors on what she would have considered her friends special night. She’s not the princess ideal, but their relationship is congruent with how the writers characterized her. Charlotte was a good friend; she was very attentive to her friends needs in the best way a spoiled rich girl could be and Tiana was towards her. I wish their friendship would have been fleshed out more, they were the definition of opposites attract and they both had a lot to learn from one another on a personal level.
THANK YOU, Tiana, Naveen, and Charlotte have a great dynamic together imo, the other circumstances of the movie just spoil the shit out of it
@@aff77141 Well said
Charlotte is enjoyed by whites because they don't like black leads
Even Mulan had fragile moments. When she was discovered as a woman, in the beginning when she knew her father would die if he went to war. In the second movie when she was worried about her bf, Shang. I also realized why when I make black female characters in my fantasy comics they're always a bit vulnerable or need a bit of saving in addition to being able to handle big things on their own. I thought I was maybe a bit misogynistic but in reality I was just reflecting on how I want to feel dainty and "feminine" so I express that in my characters.
I do that with my black female characters too! I'm fine with my femininity but I really do wanna see more black women and girls get the space to be vulnerable and hyper feminine.
I mean, _everyone_ has moments of vulnerability or doubt in real life, so as long as you’re not going full shoujo damsel in distress trope I don’t see how anyone could call you misogynistic for that 💀
@@anerrorhasoccurred8727 +++++
What you spoke about in the portion of the video 'The Castle that never was' is something I noticed as a child in most movies that featured black people as the main characters. Everything seemed to always need to be realistic and that realism meant suffering for black people. As a child I longed to see a movie with a black girl living a nice rich life and having simple teenage problems. And it upset me so much that I could never really find that.
It was a main reason why I was never fond of this movie.
I so agree with this and same, I still long for that character
dionne in cluelesss comes to mind. granted, she is not the lead but she is part of the main cast. and just one out of all movies ever is sad, just thought i'd mention her bc she is really cool.
Brandi's take on Cinderella. You might enjoy it
@@SakuraMoonflower The one from 1997? I've actually watched it and it is one of my favorites and one of the few
@@NikolaTheodore yes thanks for mentioning her
One thing, though is that the reason Tiana's dream is to own a restaurant is because she was inspired by and an homage to New Orleans first black female restaurant owner. That's why.
I do know about Leah Chase! And I understand that the creators were inspired by her for Tiana. While I do find the inspiration from Leah Chase admirable for what she did, I think it would've been better if they made a separate, "non-princess" protagonist to celebrate Chase's legacy, instead of meshing a real life story and fairytale together. Imo, they could've given a story inspired by Chase to Pixar, since the studio is more grounded in intimate character studies and not grandiose fairytales.
@@toomanycrowns That would be amazing!
The real life version of the story is still more inspiring than hers. Tiana feels so disconnected from her own people and culture. Literally the only black characters she interacts with are haters
@@toomanycrowns I sure hope it doesnt take yo 45 minutes to get to why "black people " didnt gravitate to this film. Black adults for the most part, do not support witchcraft, or satanism. And to the undereducated Black masses of the USA, this movie was witchcraft and satanism. Many churches told their patrons not to support this nonsense either . I wrote letters to 3,482 churches myself to make sure. The black community has had enough subliminal mind control and brain washing from "hollywood" and "Disney", its disgusting dear, especially when these companies try to include actual black folks, who have a spiritual link within our melanin gift from G_D.
@@JP-br4mx Haters? All they did was tell her to loosen up.
You summed up my feelings about The Princess and The Frog so perfectly.
I know not everyone will agree with me when i say this: I kinda wish that they made Lottie into Tiana's fun loving older sister rather than her white best friend. I like the idea of Tiana having an older sister that loved fun and kept optimistic in contrast to Tiana's more serious nature. And even having Lottie tell her baby sister that yeah: Daddy *did* dream about opening a restaurant. But remember: *You* aint Daddy. You gotta be able to live *your* life, not a life you think Daddy would have wanted.
I dunno. I enjoyed the movie but once the "Omg! First African-American Disney Princess!!!" high goes away, you really realize that the movie falls flat and isn't as memorable as it could have been.
That'd been such a sweet idea for Lottie to be Tiana's sister!! I really like the idea that Lottie would tell her that she's not her dad. Maybe Tiana could've had some tension with Lottie because Tiana doesn't see her as hardworking as her.
I think that as nice as it sounds, Lottie couldn't have been Tiana's sister since she's kind of used to show the class difference between the two and to contrast each other.
@@nilajoseph5143 That's true... Maybe if they were sisters, they would've been opposites in personality only, and Big Daddy would still be there if the creators still wanted to show the class difference?
@@toomanycrowns True, big Daddy would still be there, but I think it wouldn't have been shown the same without the close relationship of the two friends. Also, Charlotte's role as Mardi Gras princess is pretty important to the plot
@@nilajoseph5143 Yeah, Idk how the story would pan out if Charlotte's role was different. If she was Tiana's sister, she wouldn't be the Mardi Gras princess. But Tiana would've had a black best friend. It's all so messy lol
As a Native American myself, I actually really enjoyed this movie, because Tiana felt like a real person and had to deal with these life problems, like some us non white people deal with. Still really liked your take on this.
Tiana is amazing but I think black women were looking for royal regal representation. Not struggle. Not up under yt ppl. Plus she was a frog for majority of the movie her man was a buM who wanted a yt woman originally until tiana saved him or whatever. It goes deep
You can still like the movie while acknowledging its problems. This movie was not necessarily bad in the writing standpoint, but representation why is it was kind of trash. And this is coming from in Ex-little black girl who's favorite Disney princess was, and still is Tiana(as if there were any other Disney princesses I could dress up as for Halloween)
Kids NEED escapism.
Not another dose of reality.
@@beautywbri7540 He didn’t want Charlotte because she was white but because she was rich. He even admitted his parents cut him off, so he was going to mooch off her when he was with Dr.Facilier. It’s like you didn’t actually watch the movie.
@@tiahnarodriguez3809 I did and he still was chasing a white girl right regardless of the motive. No one said he wanted her bc she was white but he was lusting for her white privilege. Her wealth her status etc all bc she is white. Think about what time period this movie is set in Use some critical thinking 💭. Tiana was an afterthought. We want the black princess to be the object of affection. The prize.
Why is it that the one black princess is also the one princess to live such a modern life? All the other princesses live in fantasy land, but if Tiana actually existed she could have been the mother of a civil rights activist. What was stopping them from having a black royal family, or a princess that was part of some African fantasy land, like with the other princesses?
I adore Tiana because she is more grounded than other princesses. She have a drive and a passion wich in my opinion is incredibly commendable. Furthermore, her "I want song" is probably the best one amongst the princesses. It not only shows her wish but her struggles to get there :) I actually remember it more than the other I want songs. Havnt seen the whole movie thought so I cant go to deep into this argument but thats how I feel :D
I mean Mulan was pretty grounded as well (for the time she was in) but then again is she really considered a "Disney Princess"? Hm.
@@KaiDecadence The title of princess is debatable if we go by historical terms. Typicly speaking in most cultures(im not 100% about china) the possitions of officers were given to nobels pretty much all the time. A low ranked officer could potentially become an officer if they had saved a higher ranking officer and thus be rewarded for it. The really high ranking possitions within the army (such as Chens possition of general) were mostly given to royals or close relatives from my knowledge. So she might have married into the royal family through chen or atleast a close relative to the royal bloodline.
@@SailorIda3 Ah okay, interesting.
@@KaiDecadence there are fan theories that Mulan is more than princess, if she managed to have the emperor bow to her at the end of the film then it makes it look like she is demoting herself rather than promoting herself
@@SailorIda3 I think in China at least the way it’s depicted in their novels,dramas, and comics, it seems like “princess” was also a title that could be bestowed upon a lady. The same seems to be said for “king”. If you had a lot of merit or were well liked by the emporer you could be bestowed a title. Mulan could be a princess not in the “daughter of the king” sense but in the “emporer bestowed the title of a princess as reward for saving all of China” sense.
I was talking about how much I liked it, and my friend was like, nah, I didn't like that movie at all. I was like, huh, why? And she said something I'll never forget. She said, "I waited my whole life to see a Disney Princess who looked like me. Did she live in a castle? No. Did she have magical powers and pretty dresses? No. She worked two jobs, lived in the ghetto, and dressed like a maid. I'm not happy."
If Charlotte was black everyone would call her annoying and overbearing and deem her the worst thing Disney has ever made and violently hate her
You're probably right because while I see a lot of misogyny and hatred for female characters in general, black female characters get the worst of it. If they're more tactful like Mel Merdara from Arcane, fans think she's a manipulative villainess. If she's not tactful at all, people still think she's evil and that every action she does is intentionally malicious or stupid or anything 😭
@@toomanycrowns Being a person of color, especially a black woman, will have your perceived obnoxiousness scale with the amelanism of the audience. White characters have always been allowed to get away with nonsense that would not be tolerated if they were anything else.
I like the more cynical belief that Charlotte and her dad were inclusions deemed necessary as a "Not all Whites," even though they most definitely would not have existed in that time frame as they were depicted in the film, and would be exceptionally rare if they did in real life.
@@rexspecificallyredrex64rem73 Yeah, I do see Charlotte and her dad's inclusion to be exactly that. And isn't it *inchresting* how black characters can act like similar white characters and people will just...treat those black characters like reincarnations of Satan? 🙃
+++++
I thought the movie was cute, but what *really* bothered me was the whole frog thing (even though I’m a white person). This was supposed to be the first African American Disney princess (hooray!!!), but we didn’t get to see her in human form 80% of the time. You’d think for such a momentous movie more effort would’ve been put into having the *actual black human girl* on the screen for us to see and admire as opposed to a frog! 🐸
You ARE aware these are all based off the actual fairytales, right?
@@xejelah The movie was based on a pre-existing story. But then this shouldn't have hyped the black princess factor. Perhaps that feature should've been reserved for a story where the princess would be in her human form the majority of the time.
@@xejelah they couldn't have chosen another story?
Why tf do you need to see her skin for it to matter? Hell why does the skin colour even matter
Edit: you people are racist and you don’t even realise it. Race doesn’t matter, what your skin looks like is not important. You are not inherently beautiful, ugly or boring for your skin colour. You are not bad, good or evil just bc of your race. Your race is an extremely insignificant portion of your life and it doesn’t matter at all. Representation doesn’t matter and due to the fact that no one person of that race is the same it is literally impossible to represent them. Therefore black representation will always be just a random character in random movies having black skin and nothing more, and then all of you will whine that the movie didn’t focus enough on their skin colour (Bc the movie isn’t fucking racist). Wether you like it or not representation doesn’t matter, it never did. My family is part Spanish and Aztec and I grew up in Australia, therefore never saw my history anywhere except in stereotypes. I have literally felt NOTHING seeing coco or encanto bc I’m not a shallow loser who needs a film or character to be like me in order to like them or relate to them. And I have never once seen a Disney movie about the aztecs. Still don’t care. Race makes up such a small part of my psychic headspace that I would be wasting thought caring about race. So shut up and get off your shallow pathetic moral high ground. You’re just racist clowns whining about racist ideals not being common enough in media. The fact that all of you assumed I was white bc I disagreed shows how racist you are. I’m leaving, enjoy being racist.
@@prcs420 or maybe you could stop focusing so heavily on characters skin colour?
I think it’s a very good point to bring up the fact that the villain doesn’t directly align with the protagonist. That in itself says ALOT about the storytelling issues because a good story should have the villain acting as as the antagonistic force in unmistakable opposition to what the protagonist represents… which just isn’t the case at all in this movie which makes tiana’s character feel a lot flatter than they should’ve
They could easily fix this, too. Facilier could represent the concept of cheating to win: a powerful sorcerer who only got his position by stealing from/sabotaging others (using dark magic.) Meanwhile Tiana is a hard worker who wins with integrity.
I always saw Naveen as black... He's creole. And having a Brazilian actor doesn't deflect it. There is a huge percentage of black people there. Black isn't only African American afro latinos,Arabs,Cubans, Brazilians, Nigerians etc exist
I always thought of it that way too
I always thought of him as Afro Latino
Exactly! Many African Americans think that in order to be considered “Black” you have to look like Kunta Kinte from Roots🤦🏽♀️
@@LeafInTheWind88 y’all get on my nerves with these ridiculous lies. In the African American community we are always talking about how we are always letting people claim blackness and African American culture. All because a few think that doesn’t mean all. There are millions of African Americans and we don’t all think the same. On top of that we know that African Americans are not the only type of black people. I swear y’all are always making lies up about my people.
@@cocothechocolatecow1752 thank you, I’m sick of this crap. They swear us AA don’t know other black ppl exist
The reason this didn't blow up among Black America is because the film is example Black tokenism. All the other Princess films are Princess in native ethnic land with native representation of clothing to native folklore beside "The Princess and the Frog" instead of
-- African princess in African clothing to an African folklore with a African Prince.
The Princess and the Frog is
-- African American Princess to European folklore in European Clothing with a white prince but sure as hell made the villain a black guy.
The white princess are European princess in Europe to an European fairytale/folklore
Snow white is German,
Tangled "rapunzel" is German
Beauty and beast is French,
Sleeping Beauty is French
The little Mermaids is Dutch,
Cinderella origin is actually Egyptian but version we know is French
Frozen is Danish,
Brave is Scottish.......
etc etc etc then
Mulan is Chinses in China,
Jasmine is Middle Eastern princess to at least the Middle Eastern vison of the story.
Pocahontas native princess inaccurately base on a Native American Women.
Moana Polynesian princess in the South Pacific,
etc etc.
Then back the "The Princess and the Frog"......... German ...... What your getting is a Black princess in a white context. In generally Disney relation with Blackness to African is strange
- You have Lion King which a Greek story in Africa with Animals
-You have Tarzan which itself is Eurocentric fantasy misrepresentation of Africa. In Africa there dozen of kingdom along the Coast in jungle regions,.... Wolof. Ashanti Empire, Oyo, Dahomey, Kongo Empire, Swahili city-state etc. Tazan would ran into an African kindom. but story is a 1912 White American fantasy that completely ignore African culture to present Africa as uncivilized.
- Lastly back to Frog Princess Disney a opportunity to make African Princess. Again all the other Princess are in native land of the princess and story is wrap in that indigenous culture. So question become why couldn't the Black Princess be in Africa?
So there no actual representation of Black indigenous culture. Do little Black girl know how a African princess look? Do they no how Black African architecture even look like? Sahelian Architecture, Ethiopian and Somali Architecture, Ashanti Architecture, Swahili Architecture, Nubian Architecture, Even Bantu groups like Cameroon, Zimbabwean Architecture, etc nope...... there all kinda African Princess stories and folklore that could easily made a Black princess with substance. Furthermore I have no issue with interracial dating Love who you love, but lets be real..................... Disney isn't going to make a white princess have a non white prince. So it's quite weird they decide to pull this when there a Black princess now there no Black prince. Mean while villain happen to be Black. So now you a story that suppose a representation for black girls which is actually a story of a Black woman and his white love interest fighting a black male. Surely thing no negative message to black males in this.
Tokenism is when Minorities are thrown in for sake of diversity itself with substance to avoid being called racist. You can have 95% of "The Princess and the Frog" with out her being Black. Tiana could been white it would only change 5% of the plot. This vs Snow white, Brave, Mulan, Moana etc had to be the Race-Ethic they are because of the culture setting................. basically they just her Color skin brown ...... for attention and marketing.
What I'm seeing from the comment section is that nobody is addressing the real issues of this film like you have outlined. And you have the least likes. There's a threshold in Black intelligence when it clashes too much in contrast with whiteness and people become uncomfortable. I don't know if you are Black, but keep up the good work fellow Thinker.
Oh I found a little hole in your assessment. There is a problem with interracial marriage, and love, in its deepest rooted meaning, is so far removed from todays society that it's not a word that can be seldomly used for same race relationships much less races who are at war with each other. The whole introduction of miscegenation was done to undermine Black family and separate us, so....I would say that is a hole in the logic. But in comparison with everything else you said the hole is like a little pore. And I hope with added logic and understanding we can close that pore and complete the larger context.
Interracial relationships are notoriously one-sided, abusive, and often times murderous. The divide between Blacks and whites can't be solved in bedrooms.
Actually black people don’t really care about all of that lol
The little mermaid is Danish, not Dutch
@@wisdomabdulaziz3694 Black people do care about African history but don't realize it because you can't about something you don't know exist.......... but it does effect Black people self-esteem, self identification and world view. It also effect the way other people see black people.
There a black doll. white Doll test...... that been done many times. Little Black children associate the White dolls with positively and black dolls with negatively. This makes sense because Black children learn European fairytale, they don't learn African ones. little Black boys don't imagine being on a adventure as an African warrior and little Black girls don't imagine themselves African princess. Little Black girl immediately apply Eurocentric beauty standards etc to them selves.
And Black adults spend there whole lives thinking these ancestors just throwing sticks while white people built castles. This gives white people are very large pool of inspiration that white people before done something. With Black people the opposite. Too most Black Americans Black haven't accomplish anything with out white people near by.
Lastly Black people don't just live in the US. To a Afro Brazilian a princess from New Orleans not only doesn't make sense it has nothing to do with them. But actual ancient African princess is more representative .
@@dragonfan8647 Your right my mistake
I'm super late to this even though I followed you on twitter months ago but this video essay was well crafted and speaks of something that I as a black man noticed myself. I don't think we've ever been a disney prince so a lot of us "cope" by pretending Naveen is. You're so right about the lack of gentleness when it comes to the characterization of black women in fantasy. Every single time I see one it's just like "oh boy is this a stereotype?" and like, while Tiana isn't exactly that, she's also..non-human. Which sucks!! This movie was a good movie for feminism, but a terrible one for black feminism.
Yeah, I was very disappointed to learn that Naveen wasn't black either--just ambiguous! Even now, I'm still trying to cope with that and the rest of this movie myself through drawing. If I could change just one thing with Tiana's handling in PATF, I would keep her human the whole time. And you're very spot on with how this movie's good for feminism, but not black feminism. I couldn't have said it better!
If a movie isn’t good for black feminism, it isn’t good for feminism. We have to stand together.
Perhaps because I'm older this hits different, but some of these complaints don't make any sense. There was no character or relationship development in Snow White or Sleeping Beauty. All of the original princesses are stereotypes and based off the actual fairytales. Mulan is a historical figure, not a princess, and she wasn't out to have fun. This was an old Euro tale told with a New Orleans twist, not propaganda for the current movements in society today.
This is really well said. I was bothered by Tiana being a FROG for most of the film, that was a disappointment. But I actually loved her characterization, real life problems and down to earth nature. I also loved seeing America in a Disney princess movie, that was kind of cool. That being said I am white, and most of what white women deal with is being framed as child-like, trivial, or damsels. There’s a lot of being spoken down to, or treated like you’re silly. So a princess that gets to work hard and be taken seriously is a big deal.
After watching this video though, I completely see how this isn’t necessarily always a good thing, Black Women are often not allowed space for their femininity and softness and also deserve to have escapism and be cared for. And White women are given more protection that others aren’t afforded. This video was well done and shows how what’s empowering for one person isn’t always empowering for someone else.
I kinda wanted the Princess & The Frog to be about Princess Tiana living in a fantasy setting in her own castle her parents are king and queen and Charlotte is her lady in waiting or Tiana is a lady in waiting to Princess Charlotte because she's gonna be a princess anyway. Tiana stumbles upon a fairy ring and finds a frog who claims to be a cursed princess and needs her help to kiss him, which she does and Tiana shrinks into the size of a pinky. NOT A FROG she's still human but just really small and Tiana has to navigate the world in her size which will be dangerous and heroic living in the world of the fae. The story would have the same energy as Honey I shrunk The Kids with lots of action sequences and fae creatures and pixies that are her size and many fun characters to interact with. At the end of their journey, Tiana and The Frog kiss, and the spell is broken and revealing the Frog is the Prince of The Fae is Oberon! (I don't really care for Naveen tbh) Tiana is back to her original size and she and Oberon get married in the end Tiana becomes Queen of The Fairies and lives happily ever after!
Oberon is cursed into a frog and the curse is broken by a true loves kiss is the same as Beauty & The Beast
Tiana might have her name changed to Titania to fit in the legend, and she won't be a chambermaid but a lady in waiting and is best friends with princess Charlotte. Tiana becomes a princess when she weds Oberon. The movie will be diverse like Bridgeton! A pure escapist fantasy!
This sounds so ethereal! Honestly, we were robbed. I really like the characters in PAtF, it's the plot and setting I didn't like.
This is a way better plot and a dream than what we got.
I bet this would become an even more better plot than the original movie.
Heck it would be better off without the Tiana into a frog situation, and have the fae fairy story instead.
Kind of reminds me of Thumbelina, which is an excellent movie. Check out the wiki page for the book “The Frog Princess”, that’s what Disney’s version is loosely based on. In that, the princess whose name is Emma does have a royal title. It’s a really fun book series, I loved it as a girl.
This is the most perfect plot ever! It makes me want to turn this comment into a whole movie! What makes it even better is that Tiana’s name means “fairy queen”.
The white men who wrote and directed this film clearly made Tiana a role model first, character second. They couldn't even get the first part right, because the rest of cast tell her, "Lighten up, killjoy! You need a man, not a job!" It's kinda like the race version of the cliche '90s feminist character that still has to be saved or worn down by the more "fun-loving" male hero (ala Patch Adams). They do not understand that what white feminist fans might find empowering, feminists of color do not - like being in need of rescue vs being an unstoppable, unbreakable killing machine. Fans seem to remember Charlotte more because she wasn't tied to the restrictive "role model" category, so they let her be more flawed yet fun. That said, her "friendship" with Tiana is underwritten and underdeveloped. She doesn't overcome her flaws either.
I never thought that Tiana's lack of energy was because she was a role model compared to Charlotte! At least, I thought Disney didn't want her to come across as a "loud black stereotype." But with her goal and motivation, it really makes sense.
And Tiana getting a husband isn't even bad (she and Naveen are cute) but I'm starting to get tired of a woman needing to "loosen up" because a man tells her to.
@@toomanycrowns Yes, that was what really bothered me. I love a good romance, but not toxic tropes like the one you just mentioned. If the men in charge were so worried about whether or not Tiana was "too feminist or not feminist enough" then they should've gotten writers and even a co-director that looked like her (instead of waiting until her solo show to get one), and not adapted a story originally told to kids within ten minutes (though dragging out simple fairy tales needlessly with domestic and forest filler was a problem since Snow White and Cinderella).
@@Rosemont104 I think Disney's good with lengthening these fairytales for film, so I don't think that's a problem in itself. It's tedious with this movie though. It feels like nothing's happening from all the unnecessary slapstick.
What I noticed in Musker and Clements is that when they are obligated by the company to do a movie they didn't want to do, their end products lack ambition, have weak writing and some bad lessons, and even some racial stereotypes (Aladdin, The Little Mermaid, Hercules, The Princess and the Frog and Moana).
Whereas their only one of the ambitious projects that they really loved to make in the first place and they made it that is Treasure Planet (The other two being Mort and Freddy Cat which weren't made) is absolutely wonderful not only in terms of animation and soundtrack, but also in terms of story, morals and deep messages and lessons. Every time I watch Treasure Planet I realize how deep this movie is and it is one of my top 10 best Disney movies in the same league as The Hunchback of Notre Dam, Encanto, The Lion King, Tarzan, Beauty and the Beast and The Emperor's New Groove
I didn't watch The Great Mouse Detective though, I wish it would be like Treasure Planet
@@toomanycrowns agree, the “needing a man” was what bothered me most, however... Tiana is one of my favorite princesses, I really admired her! She is beautiful, smart, works for what she wants but still has some joy and romance and fun in her, too.
The movie is short, like any Disney movie, and they can only develop characters so much. Plus, they made it more modern AND picked one of the more obscure (but still relatively well known) fairy tales. I think that made it a little trickier.
What I like best about the movie though, was A) that she became a princess by getting married and breaking the spell (not a huge issue but was more in line to the original story) and B) she got what she wanted I think he end, requiring her husband to work with her. Sorry, I don’t come from a family with money and I like seeing people benefit from the fruits of their labors, especially when it doesn’t hurt anyone.
Love this movie, I think they nailed this one.
But at the end of the movie is the best part for me. The two were so in love that they did not care if they returned to humans. Showing that once she became a princess when they finally wed and had the kiss of Love. She was now a princess even though she was a frog 🐸, because he was a prince in human life and frog life. So Tiana as beautiful inside and out, had deep love and we know know love conquers all things..
Yeah Tiana looks gorgeous and every part of the Disney princess. But the movie...when I saw it advertise, something was just missing. It lacked the magic and glitter and the "I Want To Be Her" feeling that I'd get (or I would get if I was still a little girl...I was over 20 when this came out!) And I'm sorry, frogs are gross. Why is she around frogs?? And between having her a frog half the movie and juxtaposing her against another white princess character, it was obvious what Disney was doing. They were afraid, so they minimized her and hid her in her own movie by having her co-stars with a talking animal and a white princess...you know, just in case. We are GROSSLY OVERDUE for another black Disney princess. With BIG, beautiful hair! lol
Yes yes yes!!! I noticed that as well.
A Disney princess with an afro would be amazing
This is how I lowkey felt about Soul. I hated that movie
@@maybemints right! I love frogs :'^0
It's not slime, it's mucus lol
That makes me sad. When I watched it I wanted to be her lol. She is most definitely the most charismatic, charming princess there is in my opinion.
I have a lot of hopes for "Tiana." It'd be fun to see how her relationships with Naveen and Charlotte progress as well as how being a princess affects her dreams of owning her restaurant. Plus I hope we have a bunch of magic--just not transforming people into animals.
I'm a white italian girl, living in a mostly white area, i know nothing about how could a black girl feel and i absolutely love this film, i never thought about it as the first black princess at all till i realised that she was a frog for all the film, i searched some videos about it to understand the black experience of this film and i thank you for the great way you explaid it, i still love it thought, the plot is fresh and i like the message, but now i'm really hoping about a black fairytale too
Well, people being turned into animals and mythical creatures is like Disney Magic 101 though. The Beast from Beauty and the Beast being turned into Prince Adam at the end of the Beauty and the Beast, Maleficent turning into a fire breathing dragon in Sleeping Beauty, Jafar turning into a snake in Aladdin. Heck, even modern day Disney had Meilin turn into a red panda in Turning Red..
Plus, the movie couldn't exactly work if she turned back into a human too early. Unless you wanted the movie to be 30 minutes long ?
I wasn't complaining about the fact that she turned into an animal, i think the plot it's cool, i just realized that wasn't the best kind of represantation and that pushed me to try to understand the black pov, my comment was about the impact this video gave on my education, i still love the film
I'm a white guy who kinda liked this movie but didn't fully get why princess and the frog has issues with race, but this video has definitely helped me understand. Can't wait for more videos from you
Yeah I don’t agree. Race was not a problem in this movie. People are projecting hard and exaggerating
@@zzodysseuszz I agree. I think Disney finally got the idea that inclusivity was needed for the black race and they nailed it. They did great with it imo. Smh
@@-Bellana- are you black?
@@zzodysseuszz I agree. I’m lack and people are just nit-picking imo. I aw myself in Tiana, and so did a bunch of other little black girls at the time. People just aren’t looking at the bigger picture that we finally got representation and it’s not like we didn’t see Tiana in her human form.
@@jamalamapoo Does it matter? I’m black and I agree with op and Lena. At the end of the day we got representation, and lots of little black girls and other poc were able to identify with Tiana. What more could you want for a movie made in 2009 when representation was being fought hard for?
I really appreciate this perspective, growing up, I had a distain for the classic Disney Princess because, I didn’t really see them as having fun and when we got characters like Jasmine and Mulan, I started to see the “Princess” archetype differently. One thing that came to mind when I thought of princesses was that the princes were heroic and had active roles in the narrative. I didn’t see that from princesses, so it always felt like I couldn’t relate.
[Also something something Revolutionary Girl Utena really influenced my views of gender roles, sexuality, and the idea of the “Prince” mythos]
Then as I was ending High School, I got to see Tiana being so adult and responsible that I related immediately to her, and believed that this was a “true” princess, someone who attained “princesshood” despite what anyone did to stand in her way. At the time, that was the type of fantasy I understood.
Fairy Tales felt like they were glossed up to be so clean, despite the dark origins of many of the original stories Disney adapted them from. So, at a quandary, I didn’t understand why Princess and The Frog wasn’t well received (outside the 2D not doing well excuse)
I really didn’t see how this probably hurt girls of color who never got to live that clean idealistic fantasy. So, even now, after wanting Tiana’s world to show up in KH even after all this time, it would be a missed opportunity if she was a frog the whole time.
Like, the only examples of POC in KH really is someone like Sora, who is only vaguely islander in appearance but, Anime in everything else and all Xehanort’s incarnations. He’s also the bad guy! So, yeah. In the future, I do hope we get Disney Protagonist of Color who can be who they are and not be defined as the fantastical elements and just have a fantasy world we can escape to. But…Japan and Game Developers in general have their own bias they need to work out, not just Disney when it comes to something like KH. We may be waiting for a while to see that rep.
It's funny that you bring up KH and Sora, because my next video is all about KH and I briefly mention how Sora gets lighter as the years go by. Things seem to be changing for the better with Disney protagonists of color because Turning Red is a big Turning Point (haha), as the director of that movie was Canadian Chinese like the main character.
@@toomanycrowns im ready for that video when it's up! :D because that's interesting and I'm all for it!
@@jennyg9131i was too obsessed with the kh lore as a child, to figure out the bigger picture with skin color.
It feels like, when it comes to POC being princesses, they have to earn it by being heroic instead of just being born princesses like their white counterparts. I do feel that black history should be portrayed accurately in media, esp now since schools are seeing a push to erase it altogether but at the same time, Disney is not equipped to tell that history. Sometimes, we go to the movies to have fun and that should be that. Why now does Disney want to tell accurate history when they didn't with any other princess of color or any of the white ones for that matter? I think it was out of laziness. Why create a whole new world and kingdom for this princess? Whatever we do will sell and if it doesn't, we can just chalk it up to racism. When I saw this movie at my aunt's house, I fought to stay awake through it as my sister, mom, and aunt succumbed to the sleep that this boring movie cast over us. And when I made it to the end, I was angry, because there was no payoff. I should have just enjoyed my free coma, instead of fighting it for a movie that I don't even remember.
I think a lack of historical accuracy would work with princesses of color only if people of color wrote their stories. I've heard many writers would take from their own racial and cultural backgrounds but be selective about what they'd take because they knew what they were doing and had lifetime, first hand experience with their cultures. I think if black women created/directed this movie, it would've turned out so much better than what we got.
I think it's a boring movie too, compared to other princess movies Disney's put out. It feels less glamorous and high scale than it could've been. I love a good chunk of characters in The Princess and the Frog, but the last time I watched it was when I was about to work on this video. It makes me sad that I don't actively rewatch it like I rewatch most other princess movies. :(
It was annoying never rewatched it and I have rewatched several of the classic Disney princesses. Tiana was not a princess like the others and I found the movie shady and slick with disrespect
The thing about POC having to earn being a princess, yes 100% I agree with all you said. As a child I hated the poor role that a lot of movies would show of black people. Always struggling to make ends meet or get anything material. I already wasn't rich in real life and I didn't want to see that in every movie I watched. Kid me was so disappointed that Tiana wasn't already a princess. I hated that the movie had to be about her struggling to get something in life because of money.
And also I did find it boring. I watched it once and totally forgot that it existed. Tried watching it again when I got older and couldn't even pay attention to it.
? Are you all on something? You do realize that the disney princesses represent the culture their stories come from, correct? If the story originated from europe, the character is probably going to be white. Only 3 of the "top dog" disney princess are born into their status. The rest "earn it" through marriage just like Tiana. And Jasmine is a POC!! She's a top dog born into the throne. She doesn't earn it! So quit spinning it like its a white luxury. Mulan is a poc but isn't portrayed as a princess because the original Chinese story has nothing to do royalty in the narrative. And Pocahontas was told with the EXACT same amount of historical looseness that Princess and the frog is so I'm not sure what your complaint really is.
Why not create a whole new kingdom for this princess? They did, its Maldonia. Literally the place Prince Naveen comes from.
You all have some gross tunnel vision you need to get checked on, because you all still don't seem to realize that they never even looked at black african fables to begin with, they just slapped a black character onto a white european fable and hoped you all would be happy enough with the pwetty dresses. They knew they couldn't sell a real african princess because the aesthetic of authentic africa is too far removed from what disney typically does. And they were right because the only complaints I am hearing in this comment section is how people want a black characters to have the all the trappings and aesthetics of european princesses, but they just don't want them to look the european part. Black people don't even want black culture.
Because the other Disney stories were based on fairy tails, and this movie was loosely based on a fairy tail set in a real place with actual history. On top for hat when this love was made BLM was going on and the request for historical accuracy was in demand. It’s not that hard to understand.
Watching Brandy in Cinderella as a child made me a little jealous that I didn’t look like her. That was in the days when I was so innocent that I had no concept of racism or the modern mistreatment of POC. I just saw a beautiful woman with a cool sounding voice being awesome. I think that movie was also my first crush on an Asian guy so… an important film in my childhood life for connecting with people who didn’t look like me hahaha
SAME, Brandy was totally one of my crushes when I was little 💀 same vibes as when I wanted to be “just like Rihanna” when I grew up without connecting the dots 😭😭😭
you know they could’ve done an amazing film for the first black Princess/Queen.
Queen Pokou born (Princess Pokou ) was Queen and founder of the Baoul tribe in West Africa, now Ivory Coast. She ruled over a branch of the powerful Ashanti Empire as it expanded westward. She was a born royal to another tribe but her original tribe was in turmoil so she led a group on a journey to the komoe river to find fertile land
This is a real story that happened in the 1700s and would’ve been a much better candidate than the hodgepodge American mess they made with Tiana
Now that would have been a nice idea for the 100 Year Anniversary instead of the terrible flop we've gotten. I mean, Disney doesn't know how to write a good story not inspired by any legend/myth. Encanto really seemed to be beginner's luck in that regard but then again, is Mirabel actually regarded as a Disney princess?
I think intersectionality is an essential lens to view this film through, and when you mentioned it, it clicked. In a way this film feels forced, trapped. Like it weaselled itself into a corner, and it wasnt prepared.
It wanted to be a disney princess film.
It wanted to be a retelling of frog princess, which itself is a status quo "twist" of a classic tale.
It wanted to support disney's trend of increasingly strong female leads.
It wanted to support the feminist movements of the time.
It wanted to be a historically placed film, to flesh out the timeline of disney.
likewise, it wanted to be an american tale, to add in a marker on that map.
It wanted to correct the white trend of disney princesses by finally introducing a black princess.
And above all, it wanted to still be a happy and safe kids film.
How do you make a disney princess film without marrying into it with a prince or being born into it? How are you going to tell the frog princess story without turning into a frog? How do you keep a character strong respected without making her more serious in contrast to others?
How do you represent 2010 feminism (which headed away from "women shouldnt be expected to follow their traditional gender roles like working in the kitchen (see Mulan)" to "women should be free to do whatever they want, be it cooking or boxing" without a female character doing a gender role for passion?
Historically early 20th century hasnt been touched much in disney lore.
Geographically the US was pretty bare for southern settings. How do you check off both of these without clear historic markers and location signifiers that place it in our universe?
How do you represent a black character without deep consideration of how black historic struggle, growth has formed what it has become?
How do you keep it a safe kid film without hiding the messiness or reality?
All of these can be individually answered. Even subsets can be answered, and examples of successful media do exist as you brought up. And creativity is often formed from boundaries.
But if you want to satisfy all those criteria within your 90 minutes, you'd better think hard before you start.
I was also fascinated in a similar way when I saw this the first time. It didnt sit right with me when I was 10 either.
At the very least, I think I can empathize with the film and the creators that brought it inyo being. It's definitely a feat to create a film that works well enough under all that, even if its not perfect.
I cant hate this movie. The setting is where my grandmother grew up. She was a spunky, French speaking, eccentric woman.
You don't have to hate something to know that there are several areas where it could've improved. But this is why I'm working to tell my own stories because if you let other people tell your story they'll fuck you over time and time again. Waiting on non black people and oftentimes worse, waiting on black men with power to honor black womanhood, is just pointless.
Extra points to Spiderverse for keeping Miles just a kid who's Spodrmen too!
I love that movie so much it's so important to me 😭
@@toomanycrowns I love it too! It's just amazing 😍
“remember when i compared cloud strife to tiana?” was a brand new sentence for me that made my mind start whirring like an old laptop
I think they could have somewhat addressed the Holy White problem if they gave Big Daddy a black wife (preferably dark skin) and Charlotte had a biracial half sister. This could have added some implied context about their connection to the Black community and added another character who can be a cultural intermediate between Charlotte and Tiana.
That's an interesting idea. I wonder how it would've played out with audiences though... 🤔
Wasn’t interracial marriage illegal in the south back then tho?
@@Willow-cw9te Depends where in the south you were. In Louisiana, Black ppl were intermingled with white French and Cajun ppl but if you mean white Americans then kind of. I say "kind of" because interracial marriage has always happened (Frederick Douglas's wife was White) but when they outlawed it, it still only affected certain ppl
@@Willow-cw9te THEY had no issues taking "it" from us this... sleeping with blk men's wives then making a baby n selling them..so does that really matter?
With that it didn't have to be based in the past. That plot could work now definitely. Good writing.
23:41 NO BC I WAS SO SHOCKED when they did that! And I found it strange how absolutely no media adressed it
I mean, they come from an isolated Nordic country with only one race though. They wouldn't bring it up because it wouldn't have made sense to the movie.
That would have just been pandering just for the sake of pandering.
@@jankoleon3785 it’s a completely fantasy world. it’s sure inspired by a nordic country, but the point is that disney could easily add characters of colour-whether from visiting kingdoms (as established by the coronation) or by having, say, the blond reindeer dude be inuit inspired. sticking too heavily to the real world eliminates the magic that accompanies fantasy world building-it doesn’t HAVE to be held back by real countries, because it’s not real at all! if elsa can have snow powers, who’s to say immigration can’t exist?
I remember seeing this in the theatre. They made Tiana a damn "Struggle" Princess. WTF?! I was p*ssed. It felt like the writers were lecturing their black audience on how to "work hard".
Right, like I don't already know that 😭
Cinderella says hi.
Oh, and I forgot to mention Belle, who is constantly viewed by her fellow villagers as a "funny girl" who "doesn't quite fit in."
@@JStryker47 I don't feel like arguing back and forth with you and writing a book-long comment, but I'm just gonna say when black people use "struggle" as an adjective, it means something very specific and not how you think we're using it rn. So Belle doesn't even come close to a "struggle" princess lmao
yes this exactly
Before I talk about the minutiae of the video, I'd just like to give you a big ol' round of applause and say: congratulations. You set out to give this discussion the video it deserved by improving upon the foundations of that first video, and I must say, you knocked it out of the park. This "Final Mix", if you will, is everything that one could hope for and more.
The entire section about how Tiana not only spends most of the film as a frog (which hits extra hard when you show how many other BIPOC leads have had this transformation treatment), but is also given only the bare minimum in terms of physical traits that characterize her as black, is so interesting. And seeing all the unofficial designs people created for her, that really focused on portraying her ethnicity in all its glory, was a massive eye-opener.
I also love that you traded the Black Panther segment for a segment on the Rodgers and Hammerstein's version of Cinderella, 'cause that truly is a better example of pure fantastical narrative, that doesn't need to include racial hardships in its worldbuilding just 'cause it has a main cast of black characters. Not to mention it also works better for comparison purposes, with it being a princess movie.
Other really powerful moments were your inclusion of Kerry Washington talking about her role in 'Django Unchained' and how the narrative of being a woman worth braving any and all dangers for is so often denied to black women and your description of your own experience, anticipation, and subsequent letdown in regards as to what you hoped 'The Princess and The Frog' would be, and what the idea of it meant to you as a black woman.
Overall, this video feels so personal, and so poignant, and I can only hope that more people, especially those who are underrepresented in media, come across it, 'cause it is a very thoughtful and thorough analysis of a subject matter that needs to discussed and reflected upon more.
Can't wait to see where you go from here.
I don't know what to say!!! This is such a sweet and detailed comment, thank you so much!! I wanted to be as nuanced as possible and I'm really happy you saw that! Your comment is just as nuanced as the video, thank you 😭❤❤❤
"Why didn't Charlotte comfort Tiana, and leave her in her room?"
Because then the movie wouldn't have happened, cause Tiana wouldn't have kissed the frog, which is pretty weak writing.
Although, I think the movie could have been good if the plot was Charlotte kissing the frog, turning into a frog, and Tiana trying to figure out how to break the spell. Not only would it break Disney's tradition of "look we have a main black character- and now they are a blue/green/animal etc creature for the entire movie" by making the white character a frog.
Though I don't know how they could have done the romance...
Yeah, I personally feel like Charlotte could've been written to comfort Tiana but then Tiana would choose to stay in her room anyway. I wonder what the movie would've been like if Charlotte did turn into a frog instead. Would the writers do more with Tiana'a character? Or would she have to take care of Charlotte throughout the movie?
If Lotte turned into the frog, then it wouldn't really be Tianna's story imo.
@@rubenaalexander5007 Not true. Just not have the animals talk. Have naveen turn human but Lotti turn frog and have these two figure out how to help Lotti. There could have been a lot of ways where the story could still focus on her or even more so than it is now
Tiana is an ESTJ personality. She would not have cared to talk about her feelings, or she could have done that when Charlotte found her filthy and asked. Instead Tiana wanted to talk action/make some sort of movement forward, which Charlotte did when she cleaned Tiana up and gave her a new dress. Charlotte talking about the Prince allowed Tiana to think about something other than whatever happened. Charlotte was attentive and a perfect bestie for Tiana.
For the romance, maybe they could’ve done it one of these ways:
1) the frogs can turn back into humans for very short amounts of time (at night maybe?) and Tiana gets to know the prince better while he’s in this form, which gives her a bit more urgency to break the curse.
2) the frog turns out to NOT be a real prince (either by lying or a case of mistaken identity/switched at birth) and the true prince was actually the handsome, supportive male lead (who Tiana definitely has a meet-cute with, bc yes) all along. The curse is broken with the magic of honesty, love, believing in yourself etc.
3) simply add another prince to the cast who helps everyone else along the way. Maybe he’s the frog prince’s brother who messed with Facilier (bc we’re keeping Facilier) and accidentally got him cursed.
The problem is this movie was not written by a black woman & clearly it shows. I remember being turned off by the hardship narrative, so no it didn't feel like a true children's movie. I wanted to see more fun loving & carefree natured Tiana. Weird that bw are rarely depicted in-between, they're either too pushy/bitter or ambitious/stern. It's so frustrating when movies about black ppl always have to be centered around issues of poverty & race (not all of us can relate to that). Charlotte was not a necessary addition, her story overshadows the lead which feels like a set up to constantly compare her & Tiana. I find that strange that they couldn't personalize Tiana's life, maybe with a sister or cousin instead. The movie title is also insulting & downright misleading. Who exactly is the Princess & who is the frog? Tiana was the frog...Like wow, they can't even allow us to enjoy the main character in human form. While the movie isn't terrible, it's not exactly on my rewatch list either.
I'm like aggressively late to the discussion but as someone (specifically a black woman) who to this day still sings Almost There whenever I need a pick me up I loved how you went about this story.
'Cause through I love this movie Im happy to see others talking about it and it's issues. Like it has so many issues that I when I was a girl couldn't see because I was so wrapped up in the music and beautiful background artwork that now as a full grown woman I can't help but sigh at. Like it's beyond annoying that I get a princess movie like the white girls and mine has racism undertones to it and main girl has wavy hair and not kinky.
Like I was at a Disney karaoke night thing at a bar once and people were more likely to sing a song from The Aristocats than they were to sing anything from this movie. Which is a shame 2 me.
Anyway the point is, is that I loved your thoughts on the movie and am so happy to hear that others feel the same as me.
Also sorry that the grammar and writing is so weird in this. I'm typing this on my phone and idk I can never get my thoughts straight when I write on the app.
I might have mixed feelings on this movie, but I do love at least two of the songs. They're very underrated imo. But I'm really looking forward to the Disney Plus show--I'm very hopeful it'll do Tiana justice as a character and a princess archetype.
#releaseanotherblavkdisney
I don't remember one song from this movie. Little mermaid, moana, and beauty and the beast.
The Aristocats has been around a lot longer than Princess and the Frog. More nostalgia for it, people have seen it a lot more times. I'm not saying it's _not_ a gross underappreciation for the movie, but there's definitely other reasons people are out here singing Be Prepared and not Friends From the Other Side.
Idea for the plot/romance without turning Tiana into a frog:
- Lottie is Tiana’s older sister and heir to the throne. She’s very sweet and kind, but also wants to “find herself” and would rather go to parties/games than anything else.
- Tiana is the younger (yet far more serious) sister who became emotionally closed off after the death of their father, the king. She’s worried about some spooky dark magic in the realm.
- two princes in a far-off country have the same problem: the oldest is a very classic “charming” archetype, but he has ~ d r e a m s.~ His younger, devilishly handsome brother (Naveen) really wants to be king but drowns his sorrows in partying instead.
- Lottie is betrothed to Charming and the celebration catches Doctor Facilier’s attention.
- Facilier curses the oldest prince after tricking Naveen into a deal, which ofc horrifies him. They try to get the princesses to kiss the frog. Lottie, being a hopeless romantic, does it. She transforms as well.
- cue a dramatic race against time where Tiana and Naveen have to defeat Facilier whilst complementing each other’s differences.
- Tiana teaches him the value of hard work while Naveen gets her to connect with the common people? Meanwhile there’s an adorable side romance between Lottie and Charming. Both sisters have a BEAUTIFUL arc about reconciling with the loss of their father ofc.
- The movie ends with Lottie + Charming going off to do charity for the poor, so Tiana and Naveen become the new heirs. They have a sparkly wedding + coronation.
love it!
The big blue eyed blonde side character was created to make sure lil ygirls would go see it
I think Naveen did save her from her vulnerability, it's just her vulnerability is that pressure she puts on herself. It also hasn't been much of a disney princess trop since the disney renaissance, Bell saved the beast, Jasmin helped Aladdin sneak up up on Jaffar, Meg sacrificed herself and Pocahontas threw herself in the crossfire. What's disappointing, is with such a negative reaction disney is afraid to create a new black princess.
That's a good point about the princesses saving the princes. But there was also still a "balance" with that too--the princes didn't just save the princesses by then, but it was vice versa too. (Like when Ariel saves Eric from drowning and Eric saves Ariel from Ursula by killing her) And it could've been cool to see that kind of "balance" with Tiana and Naveen saving each other. If I remember correctly, that didn't happen with them.
Edit: I definitely wish Disney made more black princesses instead of tokenizing the only original one they had....
She’s my favorite princess because she’s the most like a real person to me. She has to make her own dreams come true and is working class just like me. She made others know dreams aren’t just for rich people in castles . She’s hands down my favorite and she’s got a lot of personality. She’s fantastic
You hit it on the nail. I waited my whole life for a black princess and she unlike the others had to be a nasty ass frog for like 90 perfect of her movie. That alone made me angry but atleast she was based on a living black woman.
why did they choose princess and the frog as the fairy tale anyway? princess and the pea, or red riding hood, twelve dancing princesses, the red shoes, there's a slew of fairytales disney hasn't touched. And even with princess and the frog- they chose a modern retelling of the story when the original, with some disney tweaks, would have worked just as well.
What Disney could have done with a Black retelling of The 12 Dancing Princesses...
The title is a bit off putting because i loved this movie as a child and still do. I don't get how black America ignored it.
I'm half black. I loved this movie SO much for so many reasons. I love the story, the setting, the songs, the characters. Everything! It shows how much harder Black people have to work to get half as far. It also delicately introduces younger audiences to the stark difference between the Black American experience and the white American experience. I love that they gave Tiana traditional black features and dark skin. I just adore this movie. Definitely better than Brave, Tangled (which I like), Moana, and Frozen.
Or, it could show that even if you were born into a bad situation you could rise above it and still work hard to achieve the dream you said out to do.
I want kids to be introduced to the idea that black people can have easy lives.
@@ShermanWilliamsVideo if you're an Obama maybe LMAO
@@jankoleon3785 But meritocracy doesn't exist, everybody works hard without seeing anything in return. Besides Tiana is black woman living in 1920s NOLA. She couls work hard all she wants but society at that time was bad.
"half black" bro's 100% American, no non American ive ever met would say "im half japanese" "im half black" u are either black, white etc or are from USA or japan or a dif country. idc what yall say u just wanna be quirky with "im half this and half that" like dude u arent a dog breed cmon.
I didn’t really have a problem with lotte’s character. As someone who is horrible with social cues and tend to be a bit preoccupied with myself I get that sort of character. Though I do side eye her conclusion in the first place.
I'm a little late to the party, only just recently seen this video essay. You make a lot of good points! To try to avoid a long rant, or overly long comment, I think I will use bullet points;
1) I saw The Princess and the Frog opening weekend when I was 12. I loved the movie because I finally saw someone like me. Not JUST a black person, but one that was told from the jump that to get what she wanted, she'd have to work for it.
2) Unfortunately for me, growing up as a girl of color, most of my African American peers were kinda like Tiana's 'Friends'. They often didn't understand why I worked so hard and at times mocked me and bullied me because I worked hard to achieve my dreams while they went out and had fun. Seeing that as a kid made me feel seen.
3) This movie is for KIDS. Any of the topics of racism and classism would go over the target demographic's head. I picked out the soft racism part @ 12 but it didn't bother me, maybe because I knew that Tiana would get her way in the end, or because my parents already had "that" talk with me and I had made peace with the concept.
4) I'm pretty sure Tiana didn't WANT a castle or to be royal. She WANTED to meet her goal. She got what she wanted. Why is that wrong?
5) I actually wear my hair similar to Tiana's in the movie because I liked the style, and because I'm not fond of the natural look on me. AGAIN, at 12 I felt seen because of this. We need to stop shaming people for not choosing to wear their hair natural, and that includes fictional characters. Not only that, but historically speaking, to be considered "presentable" or "responsible" at that time, meant that women of color had to try and style their hair like white women's.
6) The movie's message to me was " To work hard for your dreams, but don't forget to live, have fun and love those around you." IDK what others thought/think the message is or is supposed to be. Again, KIDS MOVIE.
7) I too would like to see more fantasy with black protagonists. Specifically, ones where in the family isn't missing a parent, doesn't live in the bad area of town, does have wealth (like middle class). My family and I are at times considered anomalies because there is no accurate representation of a family like mine in the media today. And if there is, please share because I'd love to see it!
Overall, you made a lot of good points. I think we need to have more representation as a race, but we also need to acknowledge that there is more to being black than our trauma, history, and stereotypes. As I said before, this movie does make me feel seen. There is more than one kind of Black person out there, and just because Tiana didn't fit one person's standard doesn't mean that she is a poor example for our race as a whole.
I think that's probably an accurate representation of interracial friendships in/after Jim Crow. Tianna knows that girl treats her like the help and says nothing. She keeps her feelings inside rather than hand her vulnerability to others. Sounds like a Black woman to me 🥹🖤💜
Wish the movie did more with that now that you brought it up TT_TT
If we had to make her a frog, which we didn’t. I just would have had her and Navine be engaged from the beginning, they’re going to America after being abroad for a couple years and a long princess intro scene in his royal kingdom. But she’s just the princess fiancé, she’s not a princess yet.
So he goes out, getting ready for the wedding at Marci Gras, yep it’s their wedding now but big daddie can still be the king of it cause whatever. But anywho he does out to party, gets caught up, turns into a frog and villain tells him he needs a kiss from a princess so he goes to the party and kisses her but she’s not a princess and plot happens.
Or he’s just her fiancé stuck as a frog and she reconnects to her roots with him instead of dreaming of labor she goes in a self discovery plot line, and her friends growing up and the way the food brought people together kinda like in the kingdom or something. The urgency is because 1 wedding and 2 because they’re both signing to buy the factory so Tiana & Her Mom can have the restaurant to honor her father.
I really like the idea that Tiana could reconnect with her roots after being away in Maldonia. It sounds like a really sweet idea! Visiting her friends, eating the food she missed back where she came from... It sounds really fun.
@@toomanycrowns Awe thanks. I thought about Megan Markle & Kate to be honest and how going and being a princess abroad would be a major transition for her and kinda disconnect her from everything home. Plus I would rather have her introduced in the big Disney princess way of being adored and loved by a kingdom of brown? People in a country visually similar to India or Morocco.
@@Blackninja-en5vm That would've been so cool!!! I'm getting angry from just thinking about the missed potential lmao
cool
This was an excellent remix of your first Princess and the Frog essay!! your criticisms are so deliciously deep and this subject matter is nice to sink your teeth into. You also have like a full citation page! you can tell your writing is very well though out, researched, and heartfelt. your editing also got a lot snappier and is really funny!! but I also.... do really love Niatax XD
Thank you!! I fought tooth and nail against my storage space to make this video possible and I'm thankful you see my nuance! Now that I think of it, Niatax sounds like a Winx transformation lol
This is one of the best essay videos I've seen that deconstructs the Princess and the Frog in way that is easy to understand. You touched on a lot of issues that I have with the movie, but couldn't articulate.
I remember being young and really excited for this movie! And then a little caught off guard that the first and only black princess that I had waited my entire childhood for was a frog for most of the movie, and broke, overworked, and faced with micro aggressions the rest. I whole heartedly agree with everything you said in this video! As a black girl I wanted to a chance to be a “real” princess through the eyes of media my whole life. I remember being told over and over by my white peers in early childhood that I couldn’t play princesses with them because Princesses weren’t brown. I remember hardly ever seeing black dolls, and if I did, they wore the ugliest clothes and were “sassy” and “tough” and painfully single. I wanted to see soft black girl representation because it seemed like every other woman was allowed to be soft, vulnerable, and feminine except us.
I love the movie. It has the best soundtrack of any 21st century Disney movie imo and if I were entirely culturally tone deaf I’d find it heart warming I’m sure. But as a black woman the entire movie felt like Disney just wanted to cross having a black princess off their list for the sake of it.
another reason SPIDERVERSE reigns supreme, beautiful escapism
So, for the people who love the movie, that's awesome. I was super excited to see it in theaters because Disney hadn't made a traditionally animated film in years...and all I got were frogs...I was pretty disappointed. Tiana and Naveen were such beautifully animated characters, and I enjoyed their fun personalities. I wanted to see THEM, but not as frogs for most of the movie....yeah. It would have been better even if Naveen was a frog, but they let Tiana stay a human, and that would've aligned more with the traditional fairy tale the movie was based on.
Brandy is the best Cinderella no room for arguments
Yo when you showed the concept art for Tiana's hair...I started to cry. I always thought why a ponytail and to see what it could've been...robbed
As a gay woman I have given up on disney a long time ago, they target white straight girls and that's about it, disney was always racist, it was built on it and it hasn't changed much in that.
But I've been saying this for a while, as a writer I've done a lot of research, from the source listening to the people themselves and I've been saying "don't you think the indigenous, black, non white actor would love to just play a character that isn't being harrassed and treated like shit in a movie? It creates multiple problems, reinforces the image white kids have on non white people, as for me growing up in the early 2000s in a small town in europe we didn't have a black person in my class until highschool, so the image we got on the screen was what we had to work with, and a lot of us grew up to write yet another racist story based on those stereotypes.
The non white character always has to be a lesson about racism, they always have to be treated like shit because they are not white and thus can't possibly be treated like a person, they have to be made into a big sign so everyone knows we know about racism, and we teach you that it's bad by being racist towards the non white character on screen, because we are not racist, after all, we did include a non white character in our story.
It's gotten very grating to see black people and other marginalized groups in media to only be vessels for teaching anti-racism/bigotry--something that we should learn, but not at the constant expense of those marginalized groups. We don't always experience pain from our oppression, and being constantly reminded of it, even in more fantastical stories, is draining!
This one tweet said it best: "Some black people want black characters to always be used for messages about blackness. Sometimes I just wanna see black people fight dragons in space."
@@toomanycrowns Yes!!!
I literally can't watch reviews and reactions to this movie cuz the majority white women and girl audiences always seems to talk more about Lottie than Tiana and she is my least favorite part of this movie. I think she's a bad friend. I hate the capitalist lie that it's better to "work your way out of poverty" as if that's even remotely possible for many people and that accepting monetary help from someone who supposedly loves you is somehow a moral failing. "Tiana wouldn't have accepted a hand out" they ALWAYS say. Cinderella in the original Disney movie accepted a "hand out" from the fairy godmother, she proves herself strong, then she got lifted out of poverty at the end...cuz it's a FAIRY TALE. Another thing is, isn't big daddy a plantation owner? How did their family become that rich? He's "one of the GOOD ones". Oh, ok, but he still benefitted from slavery? If I bring up any of these criticisms I'm bombarded with white women saying I shouldn't be criticizing this film because it is important to a lot of Black girls. I think a film can be an important milestone and still be critiqued. I don't think my criticism is out of line for a white person. I'm not saying anything like the Shadowman is poor representation of voodoo, I have no idea. I think his design is cool af. I think Tiana is a great character. But everyone is capable of blind spots IDK
I wanted to bring up that I know Tiana wouldn't accept """handouts""" but I thought it didn't matter for her as a character, and I implied that Lottie could support her in other ways besides """handouts.""" She technically got a handout through threatening the Fenner brothers with Louis anyway, so, are handouts only bad for a princess like Tiana? 🤔
I've gotten several comments telling me I was too harsh about Lottie's character, but then those comments literally prove my point everytime by basically repeating what I said about her kindness. I just don't get why this canon Disney princess has to be rooted in realism like this while also promoting the false narrative of "pulling yourself up by the bootstraps."
I know I'm late, but I would like to add how I feel about Naveen, he carries a lot of “bad Brazilian“ stereotypes and I don't think the creators realized that.
Since they cast a White-latino, Brazilian Actor. (I'm Brazilian, from Brazil).
They kind of leaned in certain “Brazilian stereotypes“, yes I know Naveen's name is Indian, and yes I know he is supposed to be racially ambiguous.
HOWEVER, I did read a lot of the “Brazilian malandro“ in him and also some “lazy Latino“ stereotypes about him.
Plus the fact that he is portrayed as a “party animal“ didn't help either, and they did make the Brazilian Actor do an “accent“, where his normal speaking voice would be just fine(another thing they do make Latinos do, we always have to have an “accent“ even when we speak perfect English).
When I watched the movie, I was 17, and when I and my mom got out of the theater we saw A LOT of what the USA sees in Brazilians, even the fact that “Latinos“ usually are cast as racially ambiguous people(Just check Rita Moreno's earlier work and even for a modern take - Oscar Issac).
And don't get me started on Elena of Avalor, if Tiana doesn't sit well with African-Americans, Elena for the “first Latina“ Princess is also terrible, being a mixed mash of Latin-American Cultures that rubbed me in the wrong way(Plus the extra of one of the producers saying that SHE HAD to be on Television because Latinx kids only watch TV like we don't deserve a Latina princess on movies).
Encanto was kind of a good representation, but I would love it if they made a Latina Princess, even though Encanto did take place in Colombia, I loved the representation, we are really mixed here, and bringing afro-latinos was a nice addition, I do believe Disney did learn a little bit with Encanto, but again, I just wish we could have fairy tales.
So far Elena wasn't even added to the princess lineup, so no Latinx Representation, and I doubt Disney will ever add ANY of the Encanto Girls to their lineup of Princesses.
But thank you for your video, it's nice to hear a rather fresh take on this movie.
I mean... We already have Cuzco 😂
Latino*
Oh, yeah, as this person said, we very much prefer latino and/or latina over "latinx" because of the structure of our language. Please avoid using that
@@quetzilla762 This person is Brazilian though. It’s one thing if non Latino people use the word even though most Latinos hate it, but if they themselves are Latino and use it it should be their choice.
@@seyspectra Brazilians are latinos, they speak portuguese, which is a language that originated from latin
The points about escapism where more relatable because it's true: most of the Princesses on that roster don't *have* to work so hard all the time, and while they struggle, they don't have to accept a bare minimum or a downgrade compared to what most of them get, i.e. the generous upgrades from domestic abuse to a palace for Cinderella, somewhere out in the woods to a palace for Snow White or Sleeping Beauty, etc. They all use fairytale tropes that makes this generous leap from a humble, sometimes off-the-grid location to a luxurious residence at the end of the film complete with happy ending and some form of self-discovery/love (be it platonic, sisterly, romantic). But this movie didn't get that. I get that Tiana would have been content with the restaurant since she wanted that from the start, but she didn't make that leap from a humble setting to an extravagant one like almost every other Princess on the roster and Prince Naveen was cut off for his choices instead... Even though Pocahontas is based on a true story and that's a whole other can of worms someone could probably make a video essay out of, in the Disney version of her that represents her in the roster makes that leap from a natural woodland setting to England in the sequel where she gets a kind of "princess" treatment complete with the glow up in the ball gown and a guy. This is a well thought-out video that makes good points. I resonate with them as a brown person who didn't get to have a Princess on the roster that looked like me. I still don't because Disney snubbed Kida from Atlantis who was a literal princess in her movie. She was a POC. She had a fictional setting based loosely off of the fabled Atlantis as described by some accounts of the Great Flood in Plato's writings. But she didn't meet the qualifications because she wasn't marketable enough (???) She was a princess in her own movie in addition to saving her people (albeit passively). TL;DR: I relate. Great video. Solid points to consider. I love hearing what people actually want, and why things could have been better. : D
You got a really great point about how many other princesses stayed in off-the-grid settings and then moved to extravagant ones! Tiana does technically do that, but it's interesting how she stayed in a more close-knit neighborhood like Belle.
I wouldn't consider the Pocahontas sequel as leaning into that trope--if I remember correctly, the movie was flipping that trope on its head (but it wasn't super deep). I remember her getting her face powdered white and wearing a European gown, but she didn't like doing that and she went back home with the other John. And for that, I think the sequel was a little better than the first one because it kinda, sorta tried tackling assimilation.
@@toomanycrowns True, now that I think about it. Pocahontas definitely wasn't for a lot of what England had to offer from my faint memory of the sequel, which I haven't seen in ages. The one scene that comes to mind is when she defends a bear who is being used for entertainment purposes, so I can definitely see how they were trying to get at assimilation and turning the trope around by retaining her deep connection to nature and animals as she had in her first film despite encountering alternative lifestyles. Will have to re-watch those films sometime : D
@@the_average_melli I remember that scene with the bear and she also wiped the powder off her face in a river but that's it lol
I forgot about Kida! I actually liked Atlantis a lot but no one really talks about it. But yeah, Kida fits more into the fantasy princess role. Is it because she’s 8000 years old? Is there a Disney princess age limit?
@@Akane1313 I think the movie wasn't popular enough for Disney to put Kida in the official line-up. But Sleeping Beauty was a financial disappointment during its time and Aurora is part of the official line, so who knows?
I really liked Tiana because she’s the only princess (with the exception of Mulan) who had an actual long term goal .
All the other princesses had short term goals: Ariel - I wanna go where the people go. Repunzel - What’s up with those lights? Cinderella - I wish I could go to the ball. Snow White didn’t even have a goal just a vague hope that Someday her Prince would come while Belle, Jasmine and Merida only knew what they Didn’t want.
I thought Tiana was a good role model for any girl not just black girls.
Dude, most of the princesses you mentioned here were really really young. Like, 14-16. Most people don't have a long term goal at this point.
Ariel had a hobby-anthropology, human resarch. She loved humans and wanted to learn more about them and their culture even before meeting the prince.
Snow white and Cinderella? They wanted to SURVIVE. to be happy and overcome a bad situation. Snow White was actively hunted down by her step mother, and Cinderella was in an abusive household and the ball was a shred of happiness she hoped to have in her life.
Mulan wanted to save her father (which she did, but then she was able to leave the army but chose to stay) and feel like she has any kind of value, but that's not really an actual long term goal. It's pretty vague.
Later it was 'save China from the Huns' which is... Again, not a long term goal.
And I don't think that having elaborated plans for the future when you're very young or live in a bad situation where you just want to stay alive is bad.
Though I do agree that Tiana is very aspiring because she did have one.
Deep down Cinderella actually craved for freedom the ball was an escape of her everyday cruel life
Rapunzel was literally kidnapped and being gaslit all her childhood into staying in that tower 💀freedom is such a short term goal for you?
This is exactly why Tiana is one of my favorite princesses. And Mulan. Both amazing characters and very admirable 🥰
So they make the first African American princess a frog for 90% of the movie.
As a non-black I just didn’t like it because of everything you said lol i also HATE frogs so my mind was already made up lol
I’m Polynesian and I felt so let down by Moana. Culturally it was so general and I was hoping to have more Polynesian influence music wise, and although it did have TE VAKA play a role in the music the main songs were broadway crap (no offense to Lin Manuel and you broadway lovers) and not to mention the celebrity singer in the end was Alesia cara who, to my knowledge, is freaking Italian 🤨. Polynesian artists are amaze balls and are EVERYWHERE they really couldn’t find one more for the film? To me they had this story already and just picked a random place to set the story in and lucky South Pacific was chosen. That’s my opinion though. 🤷🏽♀️
I do take offenses on when you called the music Broadway crap. All Disney musicals are "broadway crap" What were you expecting?
@@lisah8438 apologies, I really didn’t mean to offend but for clarification i never said I hated broadway or all Disney music, I was specifically saying I didn’t like THIS broadway crap (Moana). Honestly I didn’t know what I was expecting but it wasn’t … that 🤷🏽♀️
There’s also the issue of modern Disney movies only hiring people bc they’re “trendy” rather than any legit connection to the property.
I think that Charlotte is just supposed to be clueless and self absorbed. As a black girl who grew up in a white neighborhood, most of my close friends were just as clueless as Charlotte. But they were well meaning and not actually malicious like many other members of the community. I'm just saying, there are friendships like this that do exist. I dont have a single friend as bad as charlotte, but I saw Charlotte as an amalgamation of all of the clueless and tone deaf antics of my friends from elementary thru high school. Granted, I don't actually like this movie. Lol but I'm just saying in a sick way Charlotte is more real than many may think. Soul is one of my favorite animated movies of all time, they just did such an amazing job. Especially as a musician I just live that movie so much.
I understand where you're coming from, but since you bring this up, I also wonder if the movie would've been better if it did something with that idea of Charlotte's cluelessness instead of it just...letting it marinate? Would Charlotte be a better friend if she actually acknowledged the clear differences between her and Tiana, or would it have just been awkward and forced for the rest of the story?
You didn't mention that disney has a hugeee habit of making black characters animals in general, so doing this with the first black MC was disrespectful and something they had been made aware of by fans for yrs...
I don't buy they didn't intend to make her black, the whole story is centered around it. If they didn't intend to, they definitely rewrote everything around her race.
Easy way to get her passionate about cooking and experimenting with recipes is to have more of a focus on her improvising in the swamp while making the swamp gumbo
I clicked on your channel after I finished the video to be disappointed there isn't much to binge. Wish you success, great video!
Since I saw The Princess and the Frog in theatresat age 8, I was conflicted about the changes to the original fairytale (I was a folklore nerd thanks to my mom) but really liked it. Then my dad died. He was a (white) version of Tiana's dad. Aside from the colour of his skin, not a detail was off. The love for family and food trumping everything else, wanting to own his own restaurant, the extreme emphasis on hard work, how tired he really was and how hard he tried to hide it...the list goes on and on. EVERYTHING Tiana's dad says and does could have come straight from my dad. I noticed this before he died, but after the narrative resonated with me in a way that still breaks my heart every time.
I have latched onto Princess Tiana since childhood with an obsession. I relate to her on such a deep and painful level. I grew up "poor", I have a single mom, and I work 2 jobs (while going to culinary/nutrition school full time), I rarely take days off, just for the CHANCE of achieving my dreams and making my father proud. I feel really guilty I don't work 3, and the only thing that helps is reminding myself that "Princess Tiana only worked 2 jobs". I sing "almost there" under my breath every day, through every trial and tribulation. Through every person who has told me I work too hard, I need to give up on my silly dreams, I should focus more on finding a man, etc. Some days I question if I would even be alive if not for princess Tiana inspiring me. Princess Tiana is the person I aspire to be. I'll never live up to her incredible level of talent and ambition, but I try every day. I find it hard to take any criticism levied at Princess Tiana.
I can just barely bring myself to admit the following:
-Naveen doesn't really deserve her but he tries so it's fine I guess
-I do like the human Tiana parts of the movie much more. The animal shenanigans are a bit boring/filler and something about Tiana's strong presence as a character seems..lost in the swamp
-I never considered Lottie a real friend, more of a lifelong fake friend who is juuust not evil enough to tear Tiana away from Naveen. It never even occurred to me the movie was trying to portray her as a real friend through the pity charity that makes Lottie feel good about herself. She reminded me of every rich girl "friend" I've ever had that only swooped in when things were convenient or "too sad not to help" for them.
-The climax does feel slightly rushed.
However, there is one key difference between me and Princess Tiana: I'm not a black girl. The older I get, the more I wonder "Why do I, a white girl, relate to and love Princess Tiana when most black girls do not resonate with or like her?" this video made me understand the answer to that question more. If I can't give up my obsession, I should at least attempt to understand where the film falters. The point about the lack of representation of glamorous black girls really clicked for me. Whereas, if you are white, you are overwhelmed with glamour and a lack of representation for the reality of having to work hard. So much Hollywood escapism that it made me feel inadequate growing up lower income. Tiana was grounded in reality and the only Disney princess who delivered the "dreams do come true" message in a manner that felt tangible. To me, Tiana was the most effective representation of hope possible. To a black girl, Tiana is the opposite and that makes so much sense with history and context. Black girls need to see more examples of wealth and escapism because society tells them they can never have that, to the point that it's even portrayed as impossible in media. It's this flip that makes the movie out of touch with what was needed for Disney's first and only black princess.
Edit: Also, some of the other points made make sense but this one was the biggest for me and this is already too long
I love this movie. It saved and inspired life. But I do hope for a black disney princess that will be more effective at inspiring the lives of its target audience.
You really nailed the point about intersectionality on its head! But you can still love Tiana's character for who she is and what she does. Still, it's really cool you understood why many black girls and women didn't care for her like expected. I still do like many parts of her character.
I have to disagree about Tiana and Charlotte’s friendship. Charlotte was always encouraging Tiana and she knew Tiana wouldn’t accept handouts so she provided her an opportunity to make some money and get her name out at her party. Charlotte was happy for Tiana at the end of the movie when she was marrying the Prince if I remember correctly, and was always pushing her to wear her dresses and be a princess. Yeah Charlotte’s boy-crazy and erratic but that’s why their friendship works so well because Tiana is level-headed. Idk that’s just my take.
Another princess movie set in the same time period is Anastasia, which is also rooted in the culture of the time - just look at all the historical references in Paris Holds the Key to your Heart.
But Anastasia feels like a fairytale. Anya gets saved by Dimitri but defeats Rasputin by herself, the fashion is luxurious and flattering, and Anya’s struggle isn’t related to any social issue: it’s just “who am I?”
There’s a Tiana tv show coming up, I’m curious to see what she’ll end up doing.
Aladdin, Rapunzel, Ariel and Hercules had tv shows of their own, so we’ll know who to compare it to.
The crazy thing is that Anastasia's real history is much more violent than the story behind Leah Chase, who Tiana's based on. Don Bluth's Anastasia has a lot of weird, real baggage (even though I really like the movie) but it's treated more like a fairytale than the actual fairytale The Princess and the Frog retells 😭
@@toomanycrowns I remember being disappointed by the frog thing even before growing into knowledge of the implications because it felt like I’d already seen it (there’s a series of books I grew up with, the Frog Princess by ED Baker, that had the same plot of a princess kissing a frog prince and becoming a frog herself).
If they really wanted to tell this story, why not have a Swan Lake deal where she turns back into a human?
@@miticaBEP07 I guess they didn't want to make a swan princess movie because it was technically already done by another studio--even though it flopped miserably lol
I didn’t ignore Princess and the Frog, I loved it.
She was literally turned into a frog, working 9-5, rescuing the prince, her own business etc they could have done that with other princesses but nope they had to choose her. It wasn't whimisical, charming she was basically struggling not interested in that for what is suppose to be one of the first black princesses. Also they immediately had to run into hoodoo/voodoo and made it evil with only having one hoodoo practitioner there wasn't another one who represented that it can be good as well so it still went back to old tropes of black religions and spiritual practices being bad plus the strong independent I don't need a man trope with her struggling and working working working even her best friend was more than a Princess than her in her own movie how does that make sense and again, got turned into an animal for most of the movie an animal etc it was stupid
Bruh, Cinderella lol
I love your take on this movie and tbh its a breath of fresh air. You bring up a lot of good points about the time period and how messy everything was in terms of theme. I also feel like you said what many other creators have tried to say: that black women want to be able to be vulnerable and be treated with fragility and love. Idk why it always seems like these Disney princess movies are a good indicator of what society thinks these groups of people should be like. Black women have to be strong and hard working all the time, usually given traditionally masculine traits. While white women are always given feminine traits, daydreamer or airy traits (which usually change around depending on what time the movie is made).
Your opinion on big daddy and charlotte was also really solid. Everyone always just said that Charlotte was just a really good best friend who wanted the best for Tiana. But in the story it just seems like they throw money around so people will like them/ not cause problems for them. Charlotte doesn't even seem that invested in Tiana until the big climax of the movie. I used to like Charlotte because she had funny one liners, but her character has too many glaring issues to ignore as you have pointed out. Tiana deserved better and someone needs to make an actually good black princess! Super happy I found your channel. Can't wait to see what else you make.
I disagree about the notion that Tiana's _want_ is more altruistic than personal. In the start, she does not dream of building a restaurant to ✨bring people together✨, no she wants it for success, something her family never had.
They got by, yes, but neither her dad nor her mom saw success, even while both of them were extremely skilled.
We see that in her daydreams, she wears a white beautiful gown, is looked up to, fixes everything and is carried around like royalty.
Is that what bringing people together looks like? Being carried around like royalty? No, that's the look of success.
In the end, what her mother told her was true, that her daddy had what he needed, *love*
It's even the line she says, while the voodoo man is showing her how _successful_ she could be, if she just gave him the amulet. She says sternly to herself "daddy never did get what he wanted... But he had what he needed."
This is when she realizes, that love, Naveen, is what she needs.
Love is what made Tiana grow, and throw away her notion of complete success, of having a fancy restaurant.
Because a fancy restaurant doesn't bring people together, so she settled for a more laid back one.
We don't find love in success, we find it in those around us.
That's a really good point! I didn't think she specifically wanted success for her restaurant--she constantly talked about working hard and wanting to see a bunch of people come from all around, but I wonder if she could've also talked about the more superfluous elements of success too?
Tiana only gets 20% of screen time in her human form and 80% in her frog form, the story itself does have serious issues, even as a family-friendly feature, there are too many details that's being poorly handled.
23:41 About the Elsa and Anna thing, while i agree that it was out of the blue and that the mother showed no signs of indigenous culture i think it should at least be noted that the Sámi people, of which the Native peoples in frozen 2 were based upon are known for being very pale, even more so in comparison to the other ethnic groups in the region which is why i take small issue with pointing out that they have pale skin and have blue eyes which is quite common among Sámi. Other than that I hope you keep making wonderful content, I really enjoyed this video, I just have deep connections to the Sámi struggle and wanted to point it out ^^
I had no clue Sámi people were pale!
Edit: I misremembered that Elsa and Anna's mother was suddenly brown skinned and brown eyed in the second movie, but there's still the complete lack of cultural items, stories, etc. from the first movie. Thanks for telling me!
@@toomanycrowns yes, alot of Sámi, like many natives of north america today arent of "pure blood" because of forced assimilation similar to that of which happened in Canada so they can have lighter eyes or lighter hair, but it should be noted "pure blood" sámi are more pale, i assume it was just disney trying to make the distinction more clear but i cant say for certain, the story in frozen 2 itself is based on a Sámi protest against a dam being built by the norwegian government, Disney actually reached out to many Sámi groups to make sure their culture was fairly represented and dubbed it into northern Sámi. While Sámi still face struggles from Norway to Russia it has gotten better in places like Norway and Sweden.
Most Sámi culture can be seen appropriated in Christmas celebrations, as the Sámi are Reindeer herders in Northern finnoscandia, pointy shoes, and are known for being very short. Its very sad that so many practices around us are taken from other cultures and then we take said people and make them a whole caricature as christmas elfs, sorry if im rambling, but as a fellow native person im passionate about our cousins (other natives) from around the world ^^
@@frogger1674 No you're fine, you're giving out information I didn't know about! I didn't know about Christmas appropriating Sámi culture either.
I remember that story Disney should have move on from that the story take place in a Europe country in the 1800's most of the people would be European the Sami people if they lives in the United States would be seen as white
The Sami are ethnic Europeans related to other European ethnic groups, so yes they’re pale skinned.
Has a Black man, I was kind of disappointed has a kid when I found out prince Navien was not of Black African decent, this comes to show, they didn’t want to have a Black character or a kingdom in power … don’t get me wrong, princess Tiana and Prince Navien make a great couple and there is nothing wrong with interracial marriage.. I’m tired to see the black man get push to the side also tired to see that the woman is lighter skin of the man when it is a black couple.
Media in general doesn’t push black love. As if its taboo or something. Not in comics, movies, or shows, or even commercials (every “black” family in a commercial is either an interracial couple or a racially ambiguous couple with ambiguous kids). Unless it’s made by black people, you don’t see bliggity black love, and even that takes a lot of force to get it produced and pushed.
I was disappointed that Tiana didn't get a Black prince. She deserved better than Naveen, who was trifling as hell.
@@labelle9921 yess!
Yeah my reason for not wanting to see it I caught that asap.
My biggest gripe with the Princess and the frog other than the aforementioned fact that she’s a front for 80% of the movie is he love Interest . I mean it was like Disney finally rolled their eyes at being called racist and did the complete bare MINIMUM to just make people shut up so they give you a black princess but hide her for 80% of the movie and they don’t even give here a black love interest . He has to be “off white “ . Every other princess is matched with the same race prince . I’m not against mixed race couples hell I’m mixed myself , but for the first AA princess , it was like they said to themselves “whoa a black prince for her ? Let’s not get crazy here “
I think that since we have so many white princesses, we deserve so many more black princesses, Asian princesses, Latina princesses… there’s so many fairytales out there! I wish we could have more Disney princess movies about people of colour.
I'm mixed black white and there were even less shows in Germany depicting black people (almost all of them being American anyways)
So, when I finally saw the movie on TV, I absolutely loved it since she was the most relatable princess to me. She was black, poor and didn't have a strong social network, just like child me! Kind of.
Also I loved that they put her into the fairytale I loved the most at that time.
It's pretty interesting seeing an afroamerican explanation to why it's not that praised.
However, I had Layla/Aisha from Winx Club as a princess instead
This was a great video, and an eye opener. Thank you for sharing this.
Facts! You honestly bring up really great points in this and why a lot of the stuff that happened in the movie was total bull. Also, what you said about Anna and Elsa's supposed 'mixed-race heritage' is so true.
Rewatching this for the 18th time and didn't include this in my og comment- I LOVE the shade you threw on Disney's Pocahontas and Lottie in general.
I remember drafting a rewrite of PatF where Lottie *thought* she and Tia were friends but in actuality Tiana's like "no, you're the Karen that employs my mom, stop acting like you know me"; then in the end Lottie realizes from seeing the magic that she has to be an actual ally and helps Tiana and Naveen try and break the spell and get the restaurant -becoming an actual friend which she never is in the og film....
and then it'd be implied Lottie dates Lewis the alligator who turns human in my rewrite cuz this is my swamp also Ray doesn't die.
Nice.
@@shortbreadgirlscout3463 I like this, mostly. I have three main critiques though.
One, Lottie’s main flaw isn’t that she’s a terrible friend. (She knows that Tiana wouldn’t accept a hand out. So, instead, she used her desire for a prince to help out Tiana. This is evidenced by the talk that she had with Tiana about how both of their dreams are coming true.) Her main flaw is that her head is in the clouds about finding a prince.
Two, Lewis and Lottie wouldn’t work. Lewis WAS AN ANIMAL. And they have nothing in common.
Three, you can’t just pull out Ray’s death. Not only does it significantly raise the stakes a little in the story, it also gives an intense emotional moment when it’s revealed that he’s with his love.
I always thought that was the vibe of their relationship lol, especially since Tiana had a whole other friend group .. but maybe that was just me projecting and assuming in private Tiana’s parents would have had that talk with her.
I love the brandy version of Cinderella
Same!! Why can't they just do something like that again?
Great video! Can’t wait to see more from you!
I'm not sure that I agree with everything but you definitely given me a lot to think about. It was definitely an interesting video thanks for making it
"The Princess and the Frog" (2009) is seriously an underrated classic.
Brandi was the first black disney princess. Period tiana could never stand up.
This video indirectly explains exactly why they were so mad that Halle played Ariel. 🤯 Very well done. 👏🏼
I totally bought into it because at the time I was living in Louisiana. I loved the humor, plot and realism in the movie. I could totally relate with the main character. I took the children to the theatre to see it, bought the movie, bought the cookbook, took the kids to Disneyworld numerous times. Loved it! But, I understand the disdain for her being a frog throughout the movie.
You know the movies bad if Naveen, the Prince, outshines the princess in her own movie.
thank you for releasing this video! As another black kid that grew up on disney, it's really nice to see a relatable dissection of the movie.
honestly never thought about any of this. thank you for making this video
I've been waiting for videos like these since '05. Good work.
17:50 was not expecting that drop. I'm still chuckling.
I remember being surprised when I heard the movie was “inspired by” the ED Baker book. That book is really different from The Princess and the Frog movie. They only took maybe one or two elements from that book. Also, it’s the first in a series that’s really good. I recommend it. The main character is a princess from birth. She’s actually a sorceress too if I remember correctly. Maybe I should go back reread them. I read them as an adult and enjoyed them.
I've been wanting to read more so I'll try to check it out!
I do agree that the movie is missing a few things, like mayb more time on developing Dr. Facilier's back story n motivation cuz he just seemed too one noted. Disney was too afraid to explore the Jim Crow laws, for obvious reasons, but had they spent more time on the script to tackle this sensitive subject n how it affected the characters the Shadow Man could've been a more compelling character. Wit that, I too wish that we could've gotten more time wit Tiana as human. I keep reimagining the bayou dance scene between Tiana n Naveen as a more enchanting and memorable moment than the one we got. U see, as they begin to fall in love and feel like their true selves, the authenticity of their emotions could've been mirrored back through the reflection on the water's surface as their human forms. This could've been the perfect opportunity to showcase the gorgeous lily pad ballgown Tiana appears in for like only 15 secs near the end n thus would've allowed for a truly romantic and magical moment for all to take in, ala the ballroom dance scene in Beauty n the Beast, as we watch in awe the mirror world images of the 2 romantic leads waltzing n gliding though the lillies n stars instead of just watching 2 frogs move around the swamp. The movie does has it's merits, like Tiana and Naveen's analogous character arcs, the songs Almost There n Dig A Little Deeper, n just the overall likable cast of colorful characters (though I do wish they had made Louis another human character cursed by Dr. Facilier instead of just being an alligator as he felt too underwhelmingly cartoony n forgettable), but as well meaning as this film intended to b, it was all, well, too underwhelmingly cartoony. The Princess n the Frog is not an entirely forgettable story but Disney did fall short of giving us something remarkable, like they were Almost There, u know?
What a well thought out essay 👏🏻 you did brilliantly 💜💙
Dang it, I’m mad now that young you made up such an interesting plot from the trailers because now I wanna see that story.