I remember watching on the news, in 1974, when I was about 10 years old. Chilling to listen to these 2 episodes after so many years, with details that I was too young to remember or understand.
Ken Burns reports that after the war, NVN generals met cordially with American generals. One general said, "you know, we could have won the war." To which a VN general replied, "that may be true, but it is also irrelevent." Always loved that reply.
Well done. I lived for 14 years in Vietnam and left unwillingly in 2021. I long to go back and end my days there. Lovely place with wonderful people. It is FAR from perfect. There are lots of issues with corruption and no rights to protest or speak out against those in power. This is far from unique of course and the UK can no longer call out corruption abroad as that would be hypocritical. VN is still a poor country - the damage done in 30 years of war following 100+ years of colonisation can never be undone. And they are now one of the more vulnerable countries to climate change. What I try to impress on people is that if they think it would be better had the US puppet government prevailed somehow [South Korea is the oft touted example] they are hopelessly naive or disinformed. [New word I've invented as it seems to be needed.] Thanks for a great channel.
Very interesting episode. I remember the news reports on UK TV about the fall of Saigon. I read that when the NVA tanks crashed through the gates of the presidential palace they found that it hadn't been filmed, so they replaced the gates and crashed through them again while cameras were rolling that time.
Loved this episode, love these two in action as always but their ill-considered conclusion right at the end, threatened to undermine all the great work. Of course there is a neat formula. We must never imagine there are any 'just' wars or noble interventions. Until the West is prepared to get behind the adjudication & prosecution of international law for EVERYONE, there will never be the realisation that every intervention is biased, self-serving and fundamentally unfair. Time for us to grow up before it's too late.
But ultimately it was their country i.e. the South Vietnamese. If after twenty years they couldn't preserve it on their own then what was supposed to happen?
I think it is accurate to say that, had JFK lived, the US would never have gotten so deeply into the problems in Vietnam. LBJ had gone to Vietnam as VP and was shown a bill of goods and convinced the war could be won. And the US government was woefully unaware of Vietnamese history. In fact, Ho Chi Minh had, decades before, come to the US to seek help against the imperialist French and was not given the time of day by my government. Ho only sought help from communist countries because he felt he had to to take back his country.
You can't compare Saigon with the British withdrawal from Kabul in 1842. Officers, men, wives, camp followers and animals trekking miles across hostile terrain and winter weather being steadily attacked and decimated bears no comparison to the situation as the US abandons Saigon.
A look at the terroristic murders committed by the communists during the Tet Offensive makes it plainly clear that fears of atrocities in Saigon were not ill founded.
I don't think that it would be fair to refer to the American military presence in South Vietnam as an occupation. They were there with permission from the internationally recognized government of South Vietnam.
I think if you exam it more deeply, you may conclude the domino theory was wrong. The North Vietnamese only sought help from Russia because the US would not help get the French out. Cambodia only fell because of US bombing and NVA infiltration due to the war. And Cambodia didn't fall to communism but to the Khmer Rouge. Laos was also a victim of the war....
I think you guys make a mistake trying to use Hollywood's productions to ascertain American sentiment post Vietnam. If anything, sentiments were led by Hollywood, rather than reflecting it.
I remember watching on the news, in 1974, when I was about 10 years old. Chilling to listen to these 2 episodes after so many years, with details that I was too young to remember or understand.
Superb conversation. Thank yoiu.
Ken Burns reports that after the war, NVN generals met cordially with American generals. One general said, "you know, we could have won the war." To which a VN general replied, "that may be true, but it is also irrelevent."
Always loved that reply.
The actual statement by the American was “every time we faced you in an open battle, we won…”
@@bob_the_bomb4508 thanks, mine was from memory, 40 yrs ago when I read it.
Great work. Love the show. Keep it up!
Favourite cast.
DO come to the Midlands on one of your tours.
Well done. I lived for 14 years in Vietnam and left unwillingly in 2021. I long to go back and end my days there. Lovely place with wonderful people. It is FAR from perfect. There are lots of issues with corruption and no rights to protest or speak out against those in power. This is far from unique of course and the UK can no longer call out corruption abroad as that would be hypocritical. VN is still a poor country - the damage done in 30 years of war following 100+ years of colonisation can never be undone. And they are now one of the more vulnerable countries to climate change. What I try to impress on people is that if they think it would be better had the US puppet government prevailed somehow [South Korea is the oft touted example] they are hopelessly naive or disinformed. [New word I've invented as it seems to be needed.]
Thanks for a great channel.
Very interesting episode. I remember the news reports on UK TV about the fall of Saigon. I read that when the NVA tanks crashed through the gates of the presidential palace they found that it hadn't been filmed, so they replaced the gates and crashed through them again while cameras were rolling that time.
Loved this episode, love these two in action as always but their ill-considered conclusion right at the end, threatened to undermine all the great work. Of course there is a neat formula. We must never imagine there are any 'just' wars or noble interventions. Until the West is prepared to get behind the adjudication & prosecution of international law for EVERYONE, there will never be the realisation that every intervention is biased, self-serving and fundamentally unfair. Time for us to grow up before it's too late.
Platoon and full metal jacket
You weren't there man!
I remember this shameful withdrawal, it is very dangerous for small powers to rely on large powers.
Just ask the Kurds.
But ultimately it was their country i.e. the South Vietnamese. If after twenty years they couldn't preserve it on their own then what was supposed to happen?
I think it is accurate to say that, had JFK lived, the US would never have gotten so deeply into the problems in Vietnam. LBJ had gone to Vietnam as VP and was shown a bill of goods and convinced the war could be won. And the US government was woefully unaware of Vietnamese history. In fact, Ho Chi Minh had, decades before, come to the US to seek help against the imperialist French and was not given the time of day by my government. Ho only sought help from communist countries because he felt he had to to take back his country.
You can't compare Saigon with the British withdrawal from Kabul in 1842.
Officers, men, wives, camp followers and animals trekking miles across hostile terrain and winter weather being steadily attacked and decimated bears no comparison to the situation as the US abandons Saigon.
Terrible. I really like Vietnam. Saigon is a great city . I few there from Bangkok.
A look at the terroristic murders committed by the communists during the Tet Offensive makes it plainly clear that fears of atrocities in Saigon were not ill founded.
I don't think that it would be fair to refer to the American military presence in South Vietnam as an occupation. They were there with permission from the internationally recognized government of South Vietnam.
I wouldn't compare the Fall of Saigon to the retreat from Kabul, really. The Americans got out, along with many many Vietnamese refugees.
@@ComedyJakob the parallel with people crossing the Channel these days is very relevant
Skimming over the other comments - many of the usual delusions persist. This is a pity but sadly inevitable.
Yes you're right right Reagan did those things he also tore down the wall the Berlin Wall 🧱
Kurtz, if I remember rightly, is Russian.
The domino theory was not wrong. Together with South Vietnam also Kambodia and Laos fell.
I think if you exam it more deeply, you may conclude the domino theory was wrong. The North Vietnamese only sought help from Russia because the US would not help get the French out. Cambodia only fell because of US bombing and NVA infiltration due to the war. And Cambodia didn't fall to communism but to the Khmer Rouge. Laos was also a victim of the war....
I think you guys make a mistake trying to use Hollywood's productions to ascertain American sentiment post Vietnam. If anything, sentiments were led by Hollywood, rather than reflecting it.
I try to ignore the cowardly apologism for western imperialism you two spout but this one was too much.