Did the Vikings Kill Gay People and Dump them in Bogs?
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- Опубліковано 10 вер 2024
- *CONTENT WARNING: Adult themes and images of human remains*
There's an odd rumour that's spread around that the Vikings murdered people we would today consider part of the LGBTQ+ community and dumped their bodies in peat bogs. Yeah, I know.
But what evidence do we have that same-sex relationships were frowned upon in the Viking Age? Was it really not OK to be gay in Viking Age Europe? Is this just a case of later church laws imposing their views on others? Did the Vikings really have masculinity so fragile you could knock it down with a feather? And what does an unreliable Imperial Roman writer, gladiators, and ancient undertakers have to do with all of this?
And where did I leave my tea?
Join Jimmy as he explores what sources we actually have on all of these attitudes, and maybe enjoy the birdsong and greenery as well.
The amazing work of Antti Palosaari, who made me my new intro animation: @Anttimation
Some reading:
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WARNING: mentions sexual assault: www.jstor.org/...
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Ancient Greek and Roman men really were the embodiment of the "you're gay because you love men, I'm gay because I hate women. We are not the same." meme😂
Greeks weren't homosexual, almost all authors from back then wrote about how gay men would be tortured if anyone found out because they viewed it at feminine.
Socrates even said homosexuality came from being abused as a child. I personally can't say with the romans, but id assume it's the same case as with the Greeks. A bunch of pseudo historians trying to emasculate a masculine culture.
as a greek , theres literally a part in platos dialogues where the most conservative guy says if im allowed to translate in modern words "well i get you like some boys and then go back at your wife as a good husband, but these guys who have actual relationships with men EW" ...so yea
@@nikhtzatzithere will always be haters
I gotta remember that one, that's funny
nah ancient greeks abhorred homosexuality or male on male sex and romans were kinda gay but only allowed it with younger men and boys who weren't of the same station even then it wasn't really accepted.
"Imagine being so upset that someone called you a bottom that you challenge them to a fight to the death" I'm absolutely certain such a challenge is being thrown out in a Waffle House parking lot somewhere RIGHT NOW, it's just no one's legally obliged to accept it anymore😅
Or an arbys 😂 absolutely. I’m in Florida I’ve certainly witnessed this.
Watching said duels is a major draw to Waffle House... I think they should embrace this and set up a ring in the parking lot... "Sunday through SUNDAY!!!!!! Sundown to Sun up! WWE got nothing on this! These are not 'professionals', these are drunks and tweakers defending their hetero-honor! ONLY at WAFFLE HOUSE!!!!" In that 90s monster truck pay per view voice... Yeah, their profits would be insane!
as a bisexual almost pansexual, I find straight and gay orientations oddly specific and picky.
I can understand not liking every option, but just having one option your whole life. just weird ... and like redneck homophobia weird and funny.
Imagine someone told you they like burgers and only burgers and if you ask them if they like hotdogs they loose their shit and try and beat you up. Guess I won't ask them if they're into sushi, probably won't go over too well. They seem like a burgers only type of guy, maybe with some bacon, don't wanna get to wild there.
@@HisameArtwork I agree with the stupidity of homophobia but picky is a really odd term.
Picky sort of implies you might like stuff if you tried it or are just being awkward. You cannot control who you are attracted to, people attracted to one gender aren't in control of that. There must be people you don't find attractive, could you make yourself attracted to them if you just tried harder?
The food analogy just isn't very good.
@@HisameArtwork Just like how you are probably not attracted to kids, animals or trees, hetero- or homosexual people are not attracted to a certain gender.
I love the idea that if you lost a Duel to the Death, you would be dead AND have to pay a fine.
I was really curious about this... How would that work? Does your family just lose part of the inheritance they would otherwise get?
Doesn't make a ton of sense does it? Primogeniature never made sense to me either. Your kids can't share?
@@phyphrus1934 My understanding was that the whole point of that was to make sure land parcels wouldn't be divided up further - All the land belongs to the First in Line, no subdividing it to all your surviving sons, who would then subdivide among their surviving sons, until each parcel of land was only large enough for one family to work. Basically, land could be accumulated (e.g. if you conquered it or if your first born got to inherit your wife's family's lands), but couldn't be lost.
Of course, that's only for the Landed Lords- once you're just a dude on a farm with a couple of kids, it makes sense that one would get the house, while the other would get at least SOMETHING to help them on their way.
@washipuppy That makes more sense, but only if I don't overthink it too hard. It's the same yield either way in terms of farming. One system encourages feuds and the other, cooperation? I get that eventually there would be such distance and division in the family that any collaboration would be difficult, but even with loose ties, there's potential for alliances. Plus wouldn't it make more sense to try different management strategies (farming techniques and etc.?)
@@phyphrus1934 It sure would! But you see, THAT way would involve thinking about others and working to better the land you're on and the way you use it - and if I own all the land, then all the people who work on it's farms have to give money to me personally, so I don't care. And if my baby brother Wilhelm doesn't get any land or money, I don't have to do make any kind of agreement with him - I get to give him things 'out of the goodness of my heart', and he either has to stay with my family to work and get that stipend, or he has to go off and join the army or get work as a day laborer elsewhere.
Of course, Wilhelm might really, REALLY want me dead to take my stuff. But if I'm just nice enough, and if everybody agreed that this is the way It's Supposed To Be, then he'll get over it.
Basically - there are demonstrably better ways to work out inheritance, land management, who is actually in charge of anything, and any number of things we just kind of do because we've always done them. But once someone got started with "I'm going to give everything to the eldest son, and the younger ones can go conquer some of their own lands or work for him, whatever," it kind of stuck around as a good way to accumulate wealth in a few places.
I can't stop laughing at the idea of a curse being "if you break this, you're GAAAAAAAAAAAYYYY".
I’m very thankful for this video, as a gay man from Sweden I’ve heard all sorts of things about the Viking (well, Norse, I guess) general opinion on gay men . Both the “Vikings believed stuff we’d currently call progressive, it’s the Church who sucks, blame them” and on the other end of the spectrum “Vikings would have murdered you, modern decadence, Church made men weak and soft, blah blah I like fascism”. Thank you for saying that honestly we don’t really know as much as a lot of people seem to think we do. Either way, hopefully most people will agree that throwing people in bogs to drown is a horrible death that shouldn’t be a continued practice.
Uh where is the connection between historical accuracy of homophobia in ancient peoples and fascism?
Edit: yeah see the problem is that ancient people WERE fascist. It was the main method of ruling society even until recently. Literally every culture you can find across the globe from all points in historic practised it. You cannot say that people using ancient history as a justification for fascism are wrong because it’s historically inaccurate, they’re wrong because fascism is bad. The problem is that it is historically accurate. They are trying to return to a societal norm which needs to die (fascism). Do not tell me that you are one of those people whom believes ancient people were supportive of gay people, they most definitely were not. We know a lot more about the ancient people than you are trying to imply.
@@zzodysseuszz Some people who like fascism use ancient history as a justification and a guide for what modern society should be like, often while ignoring actual facts about that historical period in favour of either complete fabrications or half-truths that just happen to support their own narrative/agenda. If you see anyone with a Roman marble bust as their profile picture, chances are they're just a fascist (or slowly becoming one) who has an extremely biased and incorrect glorified view of Ancient Rome, which they use as some kind of "golden age" to which we must "return". Impossible to argue with since they will refute any modern science and say "that's just what the woke mob want you to believe, my half-baked hunches and assumptions are totally true and logical though, so believe that instead".
are you drunk?
@@zzodysseuszz Adding on to Trassel's response - these notions are actually particularly present within anything Viking or Asatru based, which fascist trying to drag anything Viking to the far right side. It's a real problem for many true believers of the old religion, because wherever you see a religious rune in society you must first assume 'fascism' rather than 'solidarity'. They are working hard to reclaim their own beliefs away from the far right, but it's tricky, nasty work
Unless they owe you money, in which case being thrown into a bog is too good for them. 😁😉
100% would buy a shirt that says 'History: it's nuance, baby'.
Or, "History: it's butt-stuff, baby!"
I would love that ❤
I love this!! With the logo on top?
@Danny Friar: I wholeheartedly second your comment.
@welsh viking: please!
Hard same.
I read into this exact topic fairly recently and I wasn't prepared for how much of the conversation and references (nearly all of it) is centered around bottom-shaming.
Just that good old misogyny coming through. Receiving = woman, and we can't be having with that.
Julius Caesar himself apparently had to deal with the issue of his own soldiers singing songs of his own affairs with King Nicomedes IV for the exact same reason, earning him the title of every Woman's man and ever Man's woman.
Ancient people in the Levant also had a thing about penetrated vs penetrator. Ideas of war and sex were pretty intertwined. Enemies who were killed by swords or arrows were perceived as being emasculated. If you want to find out more there is a book called "God: an anatomy." The whole book isn't just about this one subject, but it does cover it while talking about ancient ideas about God's penis.
@nothanks6549 It's a very common sentiment most cultures that address any form of male on male sexual practices - Romans, Greek, Japanese Shogunate, some African tribal systems. Generally goes hand in hand with pederasty - so both heteronormarive and borderline pedophilic by today's standards. It's an interesting though definitely loaded topic on a global historical level as to what could fly and under what constraints. Toxic masculinity for the win now and forever.
I kinda feel like this didn't stop being a thing 😅
"anyone who desecrates this runestone is a bottom" might not be historically accurate, but it does sound like something my gay friends and I would say to each other
This sounds like something that would be engraved on Reagan’s gravestone
My understanding from studying Seidhr, is that urgi or ergi translates as "desirous of penetration" so yes.
@@jamesstuart-riley5453 Relatable
🎶"Desecrators take it up the arse, do dah, do dah,
Desecrators take it up the arse, oh do dah day." 🎶
As a gay man, who has a gay D&D character, I am going to have to integrate this into my D&D campaign somehow.
One of the fascinating things related to the Roman interpretation of same-sex sexual relationships is that it is reflected in the language - different changes to the verbs depending on what you're doing, which sexual position you're in, which gender you're doing it to, and to which oriface. Fun fact (as I remember it): from a lingusitic approach, women were not seen as in the dominant sexual position (things were done to them, not them doing to others) and therefore unable to reflect female same-sex actions from the perspective of a female agent.
I'm not sure that this reflected actual practice. There are some eye-popping murals in Pompeii with women on top, and I remember hearing a reading from some recovered Pindar where the female sex worker appears to talk about penetrating a man. As for Roman matrons having affairs, you are right, there is next to nothing written down probably because the idea didn't fit into a roman man's head.
@@marcowen1506Romans seemed pretty clueless about women in general: Even their highborn women had no property, education, voting rights etc. And Romans seemed absolutely horrified when some of their enemies had an occasional woman in the ranks... A lot of suffering could've been avoided if being a woman wasn't considered a bad thing, and women were treated simply as people.
@@Sienisota I think this has been happening almost everywhere for most part of human history
nothing changed much in 2000 years, then.....what an eyeopeners
@@Sienisotainteresting how the same statement could be made of civilizations two thousand years later, with similar accuracy.
Though I didn't notice any mention of any explicit homosexual acts, I found an entertaining anecdote in the Laxdaela Saga about a woman who legitimately divorced her own husband after accusing him of wearing effeminate clothing, with the real kicker being that she was the one who had sewn his outfit.
entrapment
@@Margatatials As the saga relates it, it really was. Alas poor Þorvaldr. Although two of Guðrún Ósvífursdóttir's next three husbands drowned and the middle one died violently after being goaded into murdering his best friend from childhood, so maybe Þorvaldr was the lucky one.
@@bartolomeothesatyr yikes
@@Margatatials The sagas of the Icelanders can get pretty grimdark.
Quite a few women in bogs, too, but no mention of possible offences other than adultery. As far as I can see, if you're not a famous poetess writing about your lovelife, they didn't view sex between women as 'real' sex, because 'parts'.
Going by memory, so treat with same caution as you would Tacitus. The Roman emperor Justinian, I think, makes men doing it with each other a capital crime, but the law do not mention women.
Queen Victoria also signed a law making male homosexuality illegal but left out women. She refused to believe that women could engage in homosexual activity...
@@HS-su3cf Surprisingly common. In the UK the law that banned Homosexuality prior to 1970s also only banned it between men and the "1940's germans' only sent queer men to the concentration camps, lesbians were almost entirely untouched. Very few men have ever really had a problem against lesbians, thus laws are frequently only against the gays.
@@DavidCruickshank If I recall correctly from my research years ago, they were just considered "hysterical" or "confused" it's such a weird backhanded insult. Like the poor women were too simple to get what they were doing.
Bog bodies are celtic human sacrifices
"You found me in a place full of dead people, and bushes, and bird song. Well done." Cracked me up, and Im not entirely sure why, but Im grateful for it regardless.
It totally sounded like a GM haha
(D&D)
So basically it was a "I'm not gay bro, I was on top" situation? And I doubt anybody'd dare question Odin, "the All-Daddy" does have a nice ring to it~
Like all the "straight" men cruising guys on gay dating apps.
Social stations were more obvious back then. No one was hiding 'being gay,' of itself, they would just be scandalized if someone upset the social order about how they went about it. That would generally mean bottoms would lose social status or a sense of like machismo.
Thank you for all the lovely comments on the new intro! Do check out Antti’s channel @anttimation for more!
Also if any new viewers amongst you fancy checking out my older videos, please do!
I highly recommend the video on Loki's sexuality!
@@donovanboyle5949ooooh, must check out! I love Loki! The tricker gods are always so interesting!
Good old Tacitus. The Roman equivalent of the Victorians. He wrote about things he "heard" as facts, and if he didn't have anything, he made shit up...and over the centuries they became believed as truth. Tbh, from what I've seen, both in recent and readings into Ancient history, same sex relationships were usually just quietly ignored no matter what the "official line" was. Look at the number of female pairs who lived together as "companions" in the early 20th cent. It was tacitly "understood" that these women were together, but no one ever came out and said it. Humans have always ignored things they didn't wish to look at, and prefer to not rock the boat.
I like the one where the high ranking Egyptian officials were just tombmates. Also just imagine in real-time as those stuffy Victorian/Edwardian archaeologists brain were trying to bend that information.
@@bernadmanny 😅🤭
"Boston Marriages". My mother a fairly conservative Christian was against gay marriage but for civil unions. She was worried about all those little old ladies in Boston marriages being elderly and having no rights to inheritance or hospital information/visits.
@@rebeccaholcombe9043 Interesting. Though of course civil unions were only a stepping stone toward gay marriage.
Like Frederick the Great of Prussia
Couple things I wanted to say
1. Love the new animated intro. It's wonderful.
2. Tacitus is considered a historian in the model of Thucydides, which might be the problem, because while Thucydides did take a more methodical approach to history than Herodotus he also did most of his corroboration behind closed doors and admitted himself that he sometimes just wings it when he didn't have any sources. And that was him recording the history of a culture he was familiar with and that he was watching unfold in real time.
Tacitus was a Roman citizen writing about Germans, a culture he was not familiar with and that he wasn't part of and writing about things that have passed.
3. I think you need to sell a shirt that says "History:We don't f***ing know"
Tacitus used _infamis_ in another of his writings ( _Historiae_ 2, 56 ): "Valens was so notorious for his dishonest [ _infamis_ ] gains and peculations that he was disposed to conceal the crimes of others. The resources of Italy had long been impaired, and the presence of so vast a force of infantry and cavalry, with the outrages, the losses, and the wrongs they inflicted, was more than it could well endure." Sounds to me like _infamis_ meant political and financial crimes in that case. (Valens ob lucra et quaestus infamis eoque alienae etiam culpae dissimulator. iam pridem attritis Italiae rebus tantum peditum equitumque, vis damnaque et iniuriae aegre tolerabantur. )
@@pattheplanter In short it sounds like a pretty broad term.
"My source is that I made it up"
Yeah, I enjoy reading Tacitus, but he's best as "reading between the lines for a criticism of contemporary rome" than taking anything he says at face value...
@@a.lee713 Agreed. He does a decent job of showing a side of Rome more critical of it's war machine and treatment of "barbarian" people's in their conquests (which has lead some to believe he was of barbarian heritage) but even that is likely full of some embellishment since he then has a tendency to portray peoples like the Caledonians in a "noble savage" sort of light which is still something I don't like.
Plus he did have some Roman style bias in his observations, like his disgust with the Germanic practice of turning grains like barley into a mash, fermenting them in a barrel, and then drinking the concoction... it was beer, he was grossed out that they drank beer instead of wine like "civilized" people.
As a gay man who is NOT into butt stuff (we exist), it's so disconcerting to know that the historical prejudices concerning homosexuality are so deeply connected to anal intercourse that it really would not matter if, as a historical gay man, I professed my lack of interest in anal intercourse to an angry mob wanting to tear me limb from limb. One can almost imagine the scenario: "You see, angry mob, I don't actually enjoy buggering people or being buggered by others. Please disperse. Nothing to see here!" It seems that these prejudices were predicated on assumptions as to whether a man is PERCEIVED to be the passive or dominant partner. There mere PERCEPTION could put people in harm's way from mob violence. In the present day, I don't think time has done much of anything to educate others as to what sex between two men is like. People still make assumptions as to whether one is a the passive partner who is penetrated, or the dominant partner who penetrates. No one ever humors the possibility that there are gay men who aren't interested in butt stuff.
.. hm so do most non anal gay men just sizzer then?or is it more like two swords crossing ?
Oral and handies and toys exist, you know!
@@ah5721 You're on the internet; you can find out for yourself really easily.
@@ah5721 If you're a straight man and you don't know that oral, handies, and toys are options, you've definitely been a disappointing partner to every woman you've ever been with.
Yes. Just..yes. It takes all kinds and disparagement from your own is often much worse (psychologically) than that from the enemy. Because we should all support each other. Period.
Later Christian propaganda or not, "Odin was a bottom" is my new favorite historical hot take.
Odin was a power bottom, let's be real.
Honestly, Odin gives me heavy masochist vibes.
@@sneeringimperialist6667 Didn't he turn into a horse and try to seduce Odin? Or someone else maybe.
Sacrifice my brown eye for that divine wisdom.
@@RukoHanaji A power bottom. That sounds like something Magic Mike would sell on deep night TV. :-)
next time I don’t want to take my leftovers out of the fridge I’m going to label them ‘whoever steals this is a wizard or a warlock’
The churchyard is beautiful. What a lovely place to film with all the birds twittering away in the background. Thanks for another insightful and though-provoking video, Jimmy.
This might be a stupid question but is there a link between the idea that "a blue hat = Odin" and the stereotypical "blue wizard hat" in later mythos?
Now, that I don't know! Like Myrddin in "The Sword in the Stone". Hmmm...
The Link is that wide brimmed hats were travellers hats, basically designed to run down along the same curve of a cloak so rain would peter directly away from the body, basically an umbrella on your head, the Blue part comes from it being a dye often used by the wealthy, a ragged traveller with a blue hat is mysterious because they have a clear regal sign despite their otherwise mundane look.
Well Tolkien did base Gandalf off of Odin so its possible
A lot of modern wizard imagery is influenced by Gandalf, who himself was heavily inspired by Odin (including a blue hat!), so I wouldn't be surprised if it was, albiet indirectly, an influence
@@TyphusAndronicus I didn't remember Gandalf wearing a blue hat, so I had to check my book. Yes, a pointy blue hat, a grey cloak and a silver scarf.
I really enjoy it when you film outside, the bird sounds are a plus.
Kept thinking a sparrow had got into my room as I was editing!
The new intro is AMAZING! So well done and very smooth! Love it!
I thoroughly enjoyed listening to this. I'm both Scandinavian (Swedish) and gay, and I love learning stuff like this. I'm not in any way as knowledgeable as you are, but everything I've heard through the years about homosexuality in ancient times support what you talk about here. Homosexuality didn't become a punishable sin anywhere in Europe until after the Catholic church gained power. I wonder what they were so afraid of...
It's less fear, and more they had an Adamant notion on what is and isn't supposed to be.
Apparently it became severely punishable around the time of Theodosius and Justinian who were both Christian Roman emperors.
*By the end of the 4th century, after the Roman Empire had come under Christian rule, passive homosexuality was punishable by burning.[43] "Death by sword" was the punishment for a "man coupling like a woman" under the Theodosian Code.[44] Under Justinian, all same-sex acts, passive or active, no matter who the partners, were declared contrary to nature and punishable by death.[45].*
fear probably was not their main motivation.
when you wanna lead your often angry and frustrated people in all those wars and famines and struggles, you give them a target. Our world is way less crueal and harsh now, but this stuff never gets old. Wanna lead them? Give 'em a target. (f.e. a disaster is the wrath of the g0d for all the gayness in the land)
you can convince you political opponents sometimes. you can understand that racism is bad (f.e. by fighting together), but sexuality is such a primal instinct. once you are indoctrinated to hate LGBTQ people, you have kinda 0% chance to ever unhate them.
sexual minorities therefore are always the best targets. NO, this is not a good thing. It is BAD, but sadly it is a smart move from all kinds of haters.
The fact that humanity has been practicing the vilest crimes since the dawn of time doesnt make it right. Bestiality, human sacrifice and cannibalism among other things are simply proofs of a culture’s lacking moral framework and its inevitable demise and destruction. It is a common fact through history that widespread decadence precedes a societal collapse.
@@istvansipos9940
Not true, LGBTQ+ phobes can change, just like racists can!
Even in communities where same-sex relations are frowned upon, same-sex couples can exist and get accepted.
Same in regards to racism.
When I was a kid, we moved from the Capital to a very rural community - and back then it wouldn't be possible to be openly gay, but there were still young boys getting F'ed by elderly men...
Now it was very rural and there were a lot of religious people, (fishers, sailors, and farmers).
Now recently a guy I grew up with, a couple of years older than me - came out as gay, he even married a guy from Thailand and brought him with him on his fishing boat.
I thought most people would turn their back on him after this, and people were a bit weirded out by it - but then again, it was Poul who they've known since forever, and it only took a short while, then it was like it had been like this forever.
There's also a lot of racism in this community - but Hussein who has the Pizza place, they consider him one of their own.
I do get that the racism and homophobia is still there - they just make a mental loop where Poul is just Poul they grew up with, and Hussein has been making food for them for twenty years or so, and his kids went to school with their kids.
But it's still a small change in perception!
Heck, I used to have LGBTQ+ phobic views as well - and honestly, I've been a real prick and done some horrible shit towards gay guys when I was a kid!
And I'm terribly ashamed of it today!
My change in perspective happened gradually - and transphobia has been the last one I harbored - but now I'm free of phobia towards LGBTQ+ and trying my best to be an allied - not just because they deserve our support, but also to try to make up for the harm I've caused in my youth.
I'm not the kind of individual who spends a lot of energy feeling bad about shit I've done in the past - but this is different!
Damn bottom shaming is quite older than I though. It meaning I can challenge you to a fight to the death was also news to me.
It does seem like if they were true bottoms they would win though, we’re quite durable 😂
Just plain misogyny.
@@Whatever94-i4u yep, you see it in the romans, too. All bottoms were worth banging, but respected men should stick to being on top.
@@Whatever94-i4u As the video says, it's probably a lot more nuanced than that. The annoyance at the perception is understandable, but it's a disservice to your case to oversimplify.
It's not the most nuanced thought pattern, but I too , have always viewed men whom bottom as less masculine. The main functionality of masculinity is expansion and domination, so someone who enjoys being dominanted surely seems less traditionally masculine.
True
If you can manage to handle the pain of it, you could handle anything else imaginable most people would avoid
I can think of a single bog body from the Viking age or just after it-the Skjoldehamn body-and for one thing it’s obviously _not_ a “dishonourable” burial, and for another we don’t even know if the person buried was Norse. Also, considering the geology of the island, a burial is hardly likely to be a “dishonourable” place to be buried.
DNA evidence point to it being a Viking woman, and not a man. And the garments are exceedingly close to traditional Saami garments for women. You can find the thesis in excerpts online: New Thoughts on the Skjoldehamn find.
@@TorchwoodPandP
The DNA testing couldn’t find any Y chromosome or Sámi specific markers, but the DNA was really degraded so we can’t interpret absence of evidence as evidence of absence. It’s also worth noting that even if the body _is_ that of a Norse female, it’s not dressed as one, because if you interpret the clothes as Norse, you must also interpret them as masculine, whereas if the clothes are Sámi we don’t know enough to make any interpretation of gender presentation.
@@TorchwoodPandP
I’ve read both Løvlid’s master thesis _Nye tanker om Skjoldehamnfunnet_ and his follow-up article _Skjoldehamnfunnet i lys av ny kunnskap,_ and found them both very interesting.
@@ragnkja I randomly came across this video, haven't seen it yet and honestly gonna go to bed cause it's late but I kept seeing skjoldehamn in the comments and wondered why it rang a bell. Then I realised I know someone online from there and they sent me a card and some chocolate for christmas, how random that their small area is mentioned here. Where can I find Løvlid's thesis and article?
@@RaffieFaffie
Your best bet is probably to search for the titles (listed above) and his name, Dan Halvard Løvlid.
We're talking about butt stuff. 😂😂😂❤❤❤
Happy Pride!
That intro is GORGEOUS!
I genuinely hadn't clocked it was Pride Month until I clicked "upload"! XD
@@TheWelshViking Good on you -- none of that once-a-year nonsense the other channels traffic in for *you* -- that's why I choose The Welsh Viking™ for my year-round 'historical butt stuff content' needs!
💗 🍑 🏴 🍑 💗
@@TheWelshViking I’ve always liked to think of Vikings a bit like Spartans. Is that just 100% fantasy though?
Also, how correctly did Marvel comics get its entire Asgard continuity?
Did Neil Gaiman do a better job with Thor in his Sandman comics?
That intro, man!
Lovely opening sequence! The shifting cultural attitudes around masculinity through the ages are pretty hilarious (actually, given how horrendously toxic they can be, maybe not so hilarious.) The generally accepted norms change but there's that recurrent theme of "You must be this much manly!" And yet the one thing you can be sure of is that, whether people could be open about it or not, humans were (and are) infinitely more varied and complicated. We're still struggling to break free from dumb expectations around gender and sexuality, but it's so great that we can have these conversations! Thank you.
Well put!
We're all motivated by the same basic things, though: safety, security, food, shelter, etc. no matter when/where we live. History doesn't repeat, but it does rhyme. 😄
@@hoppytoad79 I would agree with that. I imagine humans have not changed significantly as animals since the hunter-gatherer days. Our culture evolves rapidly, which is the game changer, but we're probably, for the most part, the same creatures we were a hundred-thousand years ago.
You know what, I'm just going to point out a bunch of stuff I really appreciated about this video (in no particular order)
- The birds chirping in the background is just a really pleasant soundscape and I loved how clearly they are coming through on the mic here, it's very soothing to my ear
- The way you were getting squeamish describing some of the more explicit parts made me giggle like a middle-schooler in sex ed :>
- Great video title, the question is so overly-specific to the point of being ridiculous and you can't help but get curious as to why it's even being asked
- A bunch of relevant information is provided and yet the result is ultimately inconclusive - that's just how science works sometimes and it's always good to acknowledge that there are some things that we just can't know for sure with the available set of evidence
- The subject matter is pretty dark but because it's not overly-dramatized and delivered in a straightforward conversational style by a handsome man with a pleasant voice who seems passionate about this topic you are ultimately left with a positive feeling at the end as well as the satisfaction of having learned something new
Thank you so much for making this video man, really happy to have randomly stumbled upon it!
Ahh nuance strikes again! I really wish people didn't think everything in the past happened at once or didn't change. Thanks for another great video (and love the new intro!)
nah lets just oversimplify things so that instead of admitting the world is complex and requires a lot of calculation and effort to make sense of, we can just open our book of memes!
" I really wish people didn't think everything in the past happened at once or didn't change"
yes. we had warships, then, several centuries(!) later, we had stirrups. History is WEIRD.
meanwhile history tictoccers: "hold my phone"
Happy Pride month! I’m really happy that there are people able to have mature and nuanced discussions like this about history, and it’s very important that we do. Thank you very much Jimmy! Btw, the new intro is amazing!
I love the new intro!!
People need to just accept that (overall) history is pretty gay and people weren't being thrown into bogs for same sex relations. The Romance of the Three Kingdoms is just *chefs kiss*. Everyone was everyone's boyfriend. I'm here for it.
Generally it seems that the vast majority of ancient civilizations tended to have a less than favorable view of homosexual behavior.
@@buckarooben7635 the vast majority? lol not quite.
@@buckarooben7635 What people consider normal sexual behavior in various cultures is pretty wild at times relative to what's modern. They all of course had their own standards of what normal was, but the modern definition of 'homosexual behavior' is...kind of a modern label, for a modern context, for a modern set of behavior norms and deviations. There's no universality to it and trying to pin it down as such is...we'll be generous and say "overly reductive". A less generous interpretation might use the word "Asinine."
Everyone wants to own the past; we want the connection to it but nothing we understand of our collective past, when viewed through a strictly modern lens, is going to be an accurate summation of how shit actually was.
@btango7029 Did you read my other comment or just my reply to this comment?
I honestly have never heard the bog thing. I mean, aren't the bog bodies thought to have been ritual sacrifices? Again, I haven't really done a deep dive into the research for decades.
Edit: Yeah, just a quick Google will tell you that some of the bog bodies found were children as well as adult men and women, so clearly it wasn't some sort of punishment for "sexual deviance". God, people will grasp at straws to justify their own bigotry. 🙄
Haven't watched the video yet, but I wouldn't assume that they didn't consider children capable of sexual deviance. That's one of those things that can vary widely across cultures
Tacitus probably heard people talking about bog sacrifices and interpreted it as some sort of punishment.
Bigots gonna bigot
@popejaimie
Sadly to this day children get accused of "tempting" grown ups. I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't different in the past
In the end it shouldn't matter that our ancestors did something one way or another. We can judge their actions as immoral and act better. Whether they were child sacrifices or victims of a horrible laws
I do not know of course, because nobody knows for sure. Nevertheless these bog bodies are often so much cared for. The hair, the ornaments, the clothes, even sometimes bags and weapons are included on the bodies.
I think the "classic" idea, that these humans were sacrifices to the gods is the most logic.
One has just to look at them. They were very "preciously handled" before they came into the moor.
Some of them had substances in their bodies, so they were not fully conscious.
Does not sound like punishment.
That intro literally made my jaw drop. Beautiful work Antti!
I like the new intro. I also like that history doesn't always lead to solid conclusions. So basically we know that sexual assault of slaves including male slaves was not unheard of. My guess is that it was common. That tracks with my understanding of absolute power.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely
Well, we have fairly good records of slavery in later periods (especially America), and it certainly seems to have been common then.
@@MsSteelphoenix Yes. That's what I was thinking of too.
This is generally considered by many scholars to be the behavior actually being criticized by at least a couple of the clobber verses. Specifically, men having relations with their young male servants/apprentices, and it seems sort of likely that the problem with this was specifically a combination of the fact that you were only meant to have sex with your servant in order to produce a male child to inherit your birthright because your wife had not produced a male child which, of course, you couldn't do if the servant was male. The writers of the Bible also understandably wanted to separate the "law" for the Hebrew people from the ways of the people they'd been living amongst. There's actually a very important reason why Leviticus explains the logistics of "slavery" solely as a way for one Jewish person to pay a debt to another with very explicit rules that set it apart from the slavery and other types of servitude practiced in Rome. (Disclaimer: I am not a Christian, I am just a religious studies enthusiast who has read a lot about the nuances of interpreting the Bible within its proper literary and historical contexts)
@MsSteelphoenix common almost seems like an understatement. It is truly horrific how often masters sexually assaulted their female slaves, especially when you consider some of the truly inhumane and evil things they did with the children born of these assaults.
non-christian, traditional conceptions of sexuality are real interesting. often more of a Top vs Bottom, Active vs Passive sort of thing. which is why a magic user, who receives supernatural powers, might be considered unmanly or womanly. neat stuff.
magic users are considered feminine? wut
@@jmgonzales7701 "The practice of seiðr or "sorcery" was considered ergi in the Viking Age and in Icelandic accounts and medieval Scandinavian laws, the term argr had connotations of a receptive, passive role of a freeborn man during homosexual intercourse."
@@jmgonzales7701Jep, in the medieval period there was also a big distinction between men's magic (spells, books - - >learned maguc) and womens magic (herbs, the frog leg that makes the neighbor impotent, the evil eye - ->unlearned magic). For most of the medival period you would not get into much trouble if you did the magic of your gender, but a woman writing signs or a man making giving the cow magic herbs was very bad.
@@oktopussy9628 i also think that often men would be forgiven for the sort of learned-magic they did, but women might be disproportionately harshly dealt with. also, if you used magic to pronounce something good about your lord, that was probably ok; but it was probably never ok to (use magic to) pronounce something bad about your lord.
I'm curious what "It's nuanced" is in Welsh. Perhaps that should be on the merch? :D
The closest I can think of is "Mae'n gynnil"
Not bottoming discourse being a medieval thing too 😩
I kid I kid. Thank you for the video! A very interesting look at the sources. Also really enjoying these outdoors videos! Pretty locations! Greenery! Gravestones!
Also thanks for the clarification on bog bodies. Never heard of them as punishment for gay people, but I sure heard a lot about them being a sacrificial human for rituals 🤔
Love the new intro. I've had people argue that Ancient Greece did not have LGBT+, as it was a Christian country, when it was WAY before Christ was meant to have been born. I have no idea where they get these ideas from. Or why LGBT+ is so scary to them.
but like Greece have existed for a very long time. There vere christian greeks as well as pagan greeks. Plus the mere fact that queer discussion have been a thing for that long time shows that queer people have existed and were a regular part of society, no matter how other people looked at it
There is a lot of misunderstanding on both sides regarding LGBT issues in Ancient Greece.
Especially given the various definitions of “ancient”. It is often counter-productive to treat a region with 1000+ years of history as a single monolith.
Certainly Christianity would have further discouraged the kind of stuff that in modern parlance we would view as LGBT issues.
That said, pre-Christian “Ancient” Greece has been viewed with very rose colored glasses on the acceptance of LGBT in some modern media. *Generally speaking*, the Ancient Greeks were quite homophobic and had far more negative things to say on the matter than positive.
It’s an extremely nuanced that I recommend people look into themselves.
@@glassfibersweater6063 so ancient greeks, possibly romans didn't really accept lgbt. For the vikings we don't really know?
@@jmgonzales7701 You can't write the answer down to this complex issue in 2 sentences.
Certainly in these cultures where masculinity and "virtue" were more defined, being an adult male and a bottom was not acceptable. The Vikings may have cared even less than the Greeks, given that, as in the video, we have over a millennium of law codes with no mention of it. More likely they had some kind of taboo, again likely connected to being the bottom, but we can't know that.
We can't say much about Viking pederasty, either. But while we from a modern standpoint use two different sets of value judgements for same sex and pederastic relations, they were one and the same for many ancient Greeks and Romans.
Today we focus on freedoms, consent, and universal ideals of rights and love.
But again LGBT+ is a modern understanding that doesn't fit either.
I bet you the issue is they don't know the difference between greek and roman. This sounds like a meme but I can 90% guarantee that's what it is, because of the cultural similarities. As a religious person myself I don't say it because I think religious people are stupid, but because I've met people like this in church.
Love your nuanced take on all this, and especially given the current US climate at least, it's interesting to keep in mind the potential differences between national or regional attitudes vs laws on the books, and how that could all intersect to influence daily life or not
As a gay dude in my 40's. Here's my take on the current U.S. stance of the LGB/Alphabet Mafia. All the hate the community is getting. We as a whole brought that shit on ourselves. I remember when straight folks and LGBT folks followed the same rules. During that time nobody gave a shit about a person's sexuality. Now you have fuckers pretty much having sex during pride parades, in front of kids, and that shit is supposed to be accepted. I don't think so. So the more shit the LGB/ALPHABET Mafia cult gets. The more those of us who are getting along with the rest of society, are gonna keep saying 'Told ya so. Should of kept your shit behind closed doors like the rest of us.'
The thing I enjoy most about Game of Thrones is that it makes me reexamine my cultural perceptions and fantasy theories. I have just finished season four and my take away is that girls who don't disguise themselves as boys when in insecure situations are being stupid. Then I contrast this with everything I know about unruly situations in the 'real' world and I think again that this is the smart way. Now, with more information today, I am leaning toward the idea that being ugly and undesirable is the choice. Be as pretty as you like when in a secure environment. Be ugly and apply 'stank' when not. Am I overthinking this?
Yes.
@@Raspredval1337 To be fair, I am as much into the imagery and costumes.
Yes! It's so fun to look at my own cultural upbringing through different lenses (I'm writing a fantasy novel at the moment and I love to explore different cultural setups). And I also enjoy GoT (the books are lovely but don't let it spoil your joy for the Show. It's so well done from imagery, costuming etc. ❤ and if you want to know how it ends you better watch the Show. It's a bit hasty but I don't think we will ever get the last book😂)
Anyways, I think your train of thought goes in the right direction. I love the comparison between Arya and Sansa's journey as they are so different in their reactions and approach. 🤩
@@Raspredval1337 You beat me to it, I was going to say the same thing.
Different strategies but neither are silver bullets. Women who dress well/attractively get raped, but so do "skanky" women who are perceived as lesser than. As people who can be abused with impunity because no one in society will stand up for them.
Thank you for taking the time to go over this so clearly and set out the timings and what else we know about the records and people who wrote/left them. Understanding the context and purpose for these things.
:)
really enjoyed this video, i remember when i first encountered how often in various cultures in history the focus was on bottom vs top, was fascinating to me. also, as a gay into history, it's really cool to learn more about the combo of the two subjects. i've seen too much arguing and aggressive lack of nuance over the years, so this was refreshing to see and to read the comments too
Love the new animated intro! Thank you very much for this great gift of info on Pride Month! Studying the queer side of the Vikings and Norse gods is a huge passion of mine and I know a lot of the speculation and scholarship surrounding queerness in the written works like the Sagas and Eddas but almost nothing about the archaeological side of things! This was very interesting!
Loki in drag has me actin up
@@Volundur9567 dont forget Odin!
@@Donovaneagle2098Odin was not Gay
@@aranha6285 I was mainly pointing out his use of drag (seidr). We even have statues like the 'Odin of Lejre', likely depicting him in women's clothing. He is referred to as ergi(unmanly/gay/queer) for his use of such magics.
"I like being monetized."
:D
My dumb ass thought that was the poem!
Knowing Catullus, he probably did like being monetized
I wrote a fantasy sort of story about a male seidr practitioner in the viking age talking to a modern drag queen. Never finished it. Thank you for this actually cuz i might try to polish it up now.
Afterthought... i was inspired to write it initially because if the prohibition against men practicing seidr existed...it kinda suggests to me that someone was doing it anyway.
@@Fenyxfire Yeah, no point prohibiting something people aren't doing.
I would love to read that!
That sounds so interesting!
That sounds really interesting! I say just go for it. I'm writing a fantasy story about a descendant of Sekhmet. So she's a violent lush with a justice boner. It's rather ridiculous and I really lean on the camp.
I really like how nuanced it is and that the conclusion is: we don't know. But also, if it was THAT much of a topic, we might have more written records.
But it's really mostly about bottom-shaming and power, ist seems? And the fact that w|w relationships are never mentioned at all is another topic for sure!
Being both Welsh and lesbian i love this video. Subscribed and looking forward to more ❤
More gay stuff 😊
spectacular "first week of pride month" video (and love the new intro)
I love that new intro! The dragon animation is fantastic! I also loved that little snippet at the end of the churchyard and gravestones. With all the birdsong in the background it seems a peaceful place to relax. There are some people out there who will go to great lengths to project their own taboos onto other, earlier cultures. Thanks for dispelling rumor with (nuanced) truth.
The intro is indeed fantastic (in many senses) and the setting was amazing. I agree about people pushing their own taboos, usually cloaking it in religion to give it legitimacy. They seem to spend an awful lot of time thinking about what other people do in the bedroom.
Great video! Thanks, Jimmy. Love the new intro!
I really appreciate you cite things, events, books, scriptures, and also give further connected to topics youve discussed ! its nuanced !!
Yay, a new Jimmy video! They always make me smile exactly because you so often don't have the one and only answer and that makes it a lot more interesting in my opinion :)
also, I really like the new intro
Fascinating stuff, as every. Jimmy gives such good churchyard.
Thanks Euan! I try!
"History" is full of similar stuff. Like Kaiadas in Sparta which allegedly was the dumpster for babies with disabilities, but excavations found only tied adults, presumably from state executions.
Beautiful setting. Thank you for, as always, putting things in context. Take care, be well
Talking about butt stuff while in a churchyard is EXACTLY the kind of content I'm here for during Pride Month!
(Also the new intro is AH. MAY. ZING! So good!!!!)
I totally LOVE the animation!
Oh, aye, where's Jimmy?
Out in the graveyard, talking about delicate subjects.
This reminds me of a skit from All In The Family, where Archie says it's ok for men to be promiscuous, but not women. And his daughter asks, if men can be promiscuous but not women, who are all these men being promiscuous with?
Consent? Never heard of her.
A perfect world, where everyone is a top.
Love the new intro! (It reminded me a little of the way Idris the dragon moves in Ivor the Engine, and I mean that with great affection!). Thanks for this video - as always, it's beautifully researched and presented. The glint seems to be back in your eye as you present this one, and I hope things are looking up for you and settling after a turbulent time.
I have an impression that this idea that it was ok to be the top but not passive, extends in various forms to rather a lot of cultures ranging from modern-day prison, Norse, even Judean culture and laws in the Old Testament. The hints that it MIGHT be so, are from words they had for different social roles.
[Tangent]The Old Testament forbids sex between men on a couple of occasions, but "MEN" is itself a different concept to the modern idea that requires a certain level of machismo, and is not the same thing as a slave or a boy for example, nor biologically male people who have accepted or been forced into a "feminine" role for which there were seperate words and which likely came with fulfilling all the other social expectations that were more associated with women [/Tangent]
Rape of slaves or those defeated in battle seemed to totally fine, for example. We might see that as homosexual, but they likely did not. Again, this is true in modern prison culture: If you are the top it's not gay, it's that the other person is a woman.
I wonder if sometimes these concepts were relative: Your kingly example; THE KING is by definition the uber-dominant male figure (even if not true) so, was it ok to be the passive sexual partner to such a masculine figure even if you yourelf were usual seen as highly masculine by societal norms?
From what I can remember, the few Bible verses that mentions sex between men condemns the top, but can be seen as indifferent towards the bottom.
Theres a great video by Kaz Rowe about pre-war American gay mens’ gender roles and gender identity that came to mind hearing that. Gender was way more about performance and behavior than identity than it is now, so to simplify, all bottoms were considered women and all tops were considered men. This is where we get sexual inversion theory from the 1910s and the fairy, pansy, and beginnings of butch lesbian identities that carried through to the 40s and 50s. I didn’t realize that idea went all the way back to the classical period though
@@solvorrustad3854 so basically "gay" back then didn't mean same sex relations? it meant acting feminine and submissive?
@@k80_ so basically "gay" back then didn't mean same sex relations? it meant acting feminine and submissive?
The majorit of medieval English monarchs boyfriends would say no, no homo your majesty
Love the new intro. Love this video about bum stuff. I'm glad you cleared up the thrown into a bog thing. I've heard that a few times on youtube.
Thank you so much for tackling this head-on, and doing so in a very respectful way. I notice that a lot of these topics tend to focus on male gay relationships and sex - does history have anything to say on the subject of women loving women? Or rather, has it left anything behind that makes any sense to us today? I know, I know, it's nuanced, baby 😉
Literally almost nothing, from any of the periods mentioned :(
maybe women were more sly or people think they are just good friends .. ? most women hang out in groups to do chores and raise children so maybe it was less likely to be suspect ?
@@TheWelshViking I suspected that was the answer 😖 but thank you for taking the time to respond. I had a feeling if info were available, you’d have mentioned it in one of your videos by now
@@ah5721 that’s very sweet of you, but I suspect also a little optimistic. My guess would be that for a lot of history, women were less important than men, so it just wasn’t worth legislating. After all, you don’t make a law forbidding something unless (a) someone’s doing the thing and (b) you care enough to tell them not to.
I can't say much about Europe, but I know in Japan it wasn't uncommon for women to seek out male and female courtesans alike, and nobody really batted an eye, since cheating was the entire societies emotional support system. There are also some native american tribes and parts of India where people who weren't considered their birth gender (or at least not ONLY that) were welcome to be with men or women alike, though details slip my mind the Pawnee are a particular group I know about
This is my first of your videos. Thank you!
Thank you right back!
😂I love your nuance, it is very nuanced. Until someone invents a time machine as you point we don't know.
It is very similar to how some people in the modern church throw around the verse from ephesians 5:22 that says "wives submit to your husbands" using it like a cudgel while conviently forgetting that a few verses on it says v25 " Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her."
So they want a slave but are not prepared to die for her if needed. Thank you for looking clearly at the written evidence and not just grabbing at arandom word or misinterpreted passage.
Even with a time machine, we would still be observing (and interpreting those observations) through the lens of our modern perspectives. And the layers of nuance become even more layered and intertwined.
It reminds me of the modern wave of Muslim "converts" who like the submissive woman part of their religion but reject the no drinking or eating pork part of the religion
@@AnnaCMeyer To really get it you'd probably have to know the language from that time and era well enough to communicate, and totally immerse yourself in that culture for a decade or two to come back with the full nuance and knowledge for the area and time you wanted to know, and even then you might struggle to share that knowledge clearly and get it through to others...
It's way, way more than just layered nuance, it's like a whole layered nuance that requires dependencies on OTHER layered nuances which themselves are relying on layered nuances...
There is a Saint Magnus Erlingsson of Orkney who was an Earl and was considered a “pious” man of Norwegian descent (his Father was Erlin Thorfinnsson of Norway ) on Orkney and he was brutally murdered over a dispute over title on Orkney. His rival was Earl Haakon Paulsson and when Haakon could not bring himself to kill Magnus, his Cook (yep his personal Chef) Lilfolf killed Magnus with a blow to the back of the head with an axe. In 1898 Magnus was canonized as a Saint and also recognized as a Saint in the Anglican Church as well as the Church of Rome. There is an original copy of a plainsong chant in Uppsala in the Swedish Library there and there is a band composition by Robert Fruehwald “Fanfare: Hymn to St. Magnus” which I am currently conducting with a local Community Concert Band this Summer.
I don't know why I'm always surprised that people don't already know these things 😅 i must have been a history nerd in school. My best friend had never even heard of Stonehenge before I mentioned it x ps love the new animation he did exactly work ❤🎉
How in the name of all the knowledge gods does anyone manage to grow up not knowing about Stonehenge? Were they raised in a cult? There's a full scale replica built as a WW1 monument in the Pacific Northwest. And there was/maybe is a full scale replica in Virginia called Foamhenge.
I mean, the amount of movies that have featured or referenced it!
All I can think is sheltered east asian, African immigrant, or cult.
@@SusanYeske701 this was just before we got our teenage hands on the internet, I don't know how she'd never heard of it maybe it's cause family wasn't very cultured 🤷♀️ I did happen more than you realize, also I live in a small town of country bumpkins so that tells you a lot right there 😂
That Warren cup at 9:10 tho.... the guy peeking from the door had me in stitches!
(if i put a "anyone who takes this flag down is gay" sign next to my pride flag, i wonder if it would work. huh. food for thought...)
what a wonderful video for the beginning of pride month. LGBTQ+ history is one of my favorite topics and it was great to listen to you talk about it. it's also good to see you happy and healthy and in such a beautiful place.
also WOW, that dragon. literally made me gasp. dwi'n caru your new intro!
I love the new animated intro! Very cool! Also, what a great subject to kick off Pride month!
I don't know if it's the background, the lighting, or some new equipment, but the video quality is awesome! Maybe the green and brown background suits your features best. Anyway, great work as always!
Thank you! I dunno, maybe I found a good exposure setting I should stick to?
@@TheWelshViking I think so yes! And maybe a background that's neither too dark nor too bright
Mmm strange that the only time being gay is considered really bad is when the Church gets to steal a person's stuff. Mmm. It's almost as if the Church was concerned with money and power instead of practising the teachings of Jesus..
YOOOO THAT INTRO GRAPHIC!!!! Wicked cool
I do appreciate how you go through the historical context and refuse to make blanket or definitive statements about things that are legitimately ambiguous
I missed you so much! I hope everything is better ❤❤❤❤
Some things certainly are! Thank you, KB! :)
Am I wrong for wanting your take on Tasitis and other sources relating to Boudica???
I mean, I'm up for dismantling some Tacitus!
Thank you so much for all of the work you do to dismantle misconceptions.
Second & third that!! I would imagine it must be exhausting, because educators like Jimny are not just putting forward information, they ALSO dismantle misinformation & misunderstandings. Double the work, all uphill because it's attacking people's entrenched preconceptions, and constantly juggling with YT's damn monetization rules too 🙄
That intro is SUPERB. Also, once again as always, thank you for the nuance!
I'm so glad I stumbled onto this channel.
I normally can't pay attention to someone talking for more than five minutes, but this was really calming and engaging.
The new into is really cool! Always interested in nuance. If something is too simple it's probably not the whole story.
Bit late to the party, but from one of your icelandic viewers: Great video. Your pronunciation is completely servicable no worries. I can't realistically expect someone who hasnt lived in the country for at least 4 years to have the pronunciation down.
That’s very reassuring, thank you!
I love that scene in the series 'The Vikings' where Ragnor meets this effeminate ageing transvestite who is expecting to have his head slashed off. But Ragnor says (something like) to his brutal looking friend, "This man is a traveller and can share many exciting stories from around the World".
Great contradictory scene to highlight the Vikings were explorers.
Traders before raiders for no matter the time nor the culture there has always been more folk interested in living longer than dying early
Great video. Also, your Finnish pronunciations sounded remarkably accurate.
"If you destroy my rock column you're gay"
Sounds like a middle school insult with a subtext
Congratulations on the new intro! And yeah, isn’t it fun realizing that so many of yester-year’s biases and prejudices are still kicking around today? And to think it all started over the perception of whether or not one was “dominant” or “masculine” enough or wether or not you were even considered a person 🙃🔥
Lovely expert commentary and the birdsong in the background was lovely too. I'm not sure when the state-mandated intolerance of homosexuality gained widespread legal claims in Europe, I haven't looked into that closely, but it would be interesting to suss out when and why. 13th century? Like the new graphics. York is lovely. Your videos have informed and entertained me for ages. Thank you so much Jimmy. I'm getting into examining and trying to reproduce VA clothing and your tips and recommendations have brought me a lot of joy with that. Best.
The new opening looks great! Anyway, I can give you another data point, though one that should be taken with a big grain of salt. In _Gísla saga Súrssonar_ there's a scene where a man named Skeggi challenged another named Bard to a duel. Bard did not show up, so Skeggi commanded one of his men to carve a likeness of Bard and Gisli (the main character of the saga -- Skeggi was angry at both of them,) "And see," he said, "that one stands just behind the back of the other, and this laughingstock shall stand for aye to put them to shame." (online translation, I can't find my _Sagas of the Icelanders_ at the moment.)
I kind of see this as drawing graffiti, it definitely seems to be at that level of mockery. Of course, this is a social attitude rather than a law, and likewise while the events depicted are in the Viking age, the Saga itself was probably not written until the 12th Century -- so hundreds of years later. Does this show Medieval rather than Viking-Era attitudes? Is the whole thing just historical fiction? Who knows?
Sounds like something you would have found doodled on a bathroom stall in a junior high school boy's room in the 1990's. "Bard + Gisli = GAY!" lol
Missed this intro since I listen to your content mostly as a podcast. Got back, watched it, its glorious, kudos to him !
Thank you for putting up content warnings. Really appreciate that, I find it so considerate.
Great video as always. Historians have always seen through the vision of their own time…as, sadly have scientists. Tacitus…well..the best I can say is he liked to invent his statistics. The notion that penetration is effeminate is closely linked to not only the history of misogyny and its connection to homophobia but also to the culture of rape, which is also part of misogyny. It’s fascinating that slavery was connected in all this as rape of male and female slaves was so common. Essentially the notion that the person being penetrated was weak can’t be separated from all that awful history. Btw some Samurai would test the sharpness of their swords by cutting off the heads of unfortunate peasants. Yay humanity.
The title instantly raised my blood pressure and put me in defence mode 😡
Now I'm calm again - and relieved 🥰
Peace and love from a Danish history teacher 😊
Edit. I've of course seen the three famous Danish bog bodies 🙄 It's a quite powerful experience!
When we visisted the Grauballemand my 6y old son instantly senced the calm and serious atmosphaere around him, and I explain it's how we show him respect. THEN he realized this was the real thing! Truly in awe
Stop lying; from wikipedia.
"That's wrong, Germanic societies were, if anything, much harsher on homosexuality before the church.
Jimmy likes to dismiss some stuff because it's from after the Viking age, but all of our Norse sources about the Viking age and Norse Mythology are from after the Viking age, but all Norse sources say the same thing and are confirmed by their related Germanic people's laws on Ergi and other sources. Norse sources show that Ergi (effeminateness, homosexuality) was found irreprehensible and shameful, crossdressing was unacceptable and shameful, accusing someone of homosexuality or being Argr merited a fight to the death.
Roman sources also confirm this about Germanic cultures and the law codes of the Germanic people also share this. Friesians and Saxons shared this concept of Ergi and had similar laws, castration or death for homosexuals for Friesians and duel to the death for the accusation for Saxons."
Im half danish, half norwegian. I dont want you to spit on my ancestors by making it seem like they accepted your evilness
@@Eki2718 Where from Wikipedia? What sources is it associated with? There are a lot of debate, but the sources of ACTUAL Vikings are extremely rare, and basically none are associated with queer relationships. There is an immense difference between frowning upon something, accepting it in certain scenarios, and actually persecuting people for it with punishment and death.
It's extremely important to remove our perceptions of proper when dealing with other cultures, including with regards to ancient societies. Roman and Greek culture accepted queerness in many situations, some which are absolutely unacceptable (as mentioned in this video), others where it's very meh and neutral.
@@Eki2718 You say "stop lying" to a history teacher and then quote Wikipedia... This is the level of intellect among homophobes.
Greek here, I confirm, back in Ancient Greece it was only "bad" if you were the passive one.
Ironically, homophobia here in Greece nowadays often revolves around the assumption of gay men being feminine, and you'll often hear questions like "do you like taking it?"
Religion is mostly invoked by grandpas and grannies in their twilight years.
Well researched, well thought out, and very well presented, as usual. This is why we love you. Hugs
Love the new intro! I also appreciate that you clarified a lot of misconceptions about this topic.
Very interesting. As a historiographer it is all nuance and people always want to look at the long past through the eyes and mores of today( which is quickly going down the tubes!) 1000, 2000 + years ago what people thought/did is still a crap shoot most of the time we have some but not much primary sources. Great episode, Jimmy. ( may I call you Jimmy?)
Just me, humming the theme song to myself as the patrons roll, to substitute for the missing theme 😂
Arse. I did notice but only after editing it all and rendering the bloody thing!
Amazing that the post-viking norse literally cancelled "Silence, bottom!" memes.
I was thinking to myself how did I miss the animation in the logo all this time, then you mentioned it was an updated version!
It looks so good!
18:18 „coincidence??!“ 🤣🤣🤣 I startled my cat..