The output jack is a weird traditional name for an input with a DC-blocking cap. Simpsons and Tripletts also have these output jacks, going back to the 1950's. I think the name refers to their ability to read the AC on the output side of a tube amplifier while blocking the DC bias.
I learned how to use a meter on an analog meter back in the 70s - my father showed me how it worked. Pretty sure it was one from Radio Shack. That and learning how basic circuits worked in.. 2nd? grade is what got me started down what turned out to be a good career in computers/IT and my hobby, now occupation, with arcade games/pinball.
I am not sure what my first analog meter was. I've never ran across one that looked like it. I bought a few books from Radioshack on how to use a meter and an oscilloscope. I still have the books but my first meter and scope are long gone. I do still have my first digital meter which has been in several videos getting getting a lot of abuse. I recently rebuilt it. ua-cam.com/video/ObKomuLLqU8/v-deo.html
Congratulations on the review!!!! Here in Brazil, audio amplifier repair technicians use old analog multimeters like the SANWA 320X and the HIOKI AS-100D to detect small leaks at the PN junctions of transistors. These multimeters have features that we don't see in current digital ones, which are: 1. The x100K scale works with a 22.5v + 3v battery from the cells that total 25.5v, that is, the PN junctions are subjected to a voltage of approximately 25.5v. Different in the digital ones that it is in average of 3v. With the exception of the Fluke 87V which is around 7.9v. 2. Galvanometer works with 20µA on Sanwa and 9µA on Hioki AS-100D. 3. Coil resistance: 1817ohms. With such characteristics, these instruments are unbeatable in detecting any microleakage in semiconductors. Current digital multimeters cannot detect the low voltage at the PN junction, even the Brymen 869s or Flukes. In view of the explanations, I ask the questions: How are the most experienced technicians able to resolve these issues? Is there any equipment suitable for this job? Thank you so much!
For looking at small currents the nA or resistance in the Gohms, I use a electrometer. HV diodes will also require a higher test voltage and in those cases I will use an external source. I can't think of a time since getting my first DMM that I could have used an analog one. You should make a video showing your troubleshooting techniques to detect bad and good components using both analog and digital meters.
Had an AVO 8 mark 2 back in the 70s/80s, this meter had a cut out which survived for about 15yrs tv repair work. I hit the focus anode of the crt more than a few times , again nice post thanks for your time.
Thanks for the info. I looked at the manual, schematic and pictures of this meter. If I understand the manual, they actually detect the needle position for an overload.
Didn't go in to exactly how it operated, but in the UK that meter was the standard referred to in most circuit diagrams. I believe the Simpson used something similar in some of their meters. i got the AVO second hand used it for about 15yrs and sold it on as far as i know it was still going strong in the mid 90s, keep up the good work, look forward to the next meter
Another nice video Joe, is it possible to have a few more analoge metre tests? hioki, kyoritsu and sanwa still have good quality analoge metres that could be interesting!
I always crack up when Mr. Smith calmly complains about some crap while trying to damage it :) "It just made sooo cheap, with all passive components,,,,( long pose ),,, you think this would just go through just fine."
I use my Fluke meters for any measurements I need accuracy. I do like analog meters for times when I am looking for trends, such as the resonance frequency of a loudspeaker. You just want to see the peak (or null), and accuracy isnt needed. I would love to have an old analog Simpson meter like I used in the military years ago, but they are quite pricey these days.
I have a suspiciously similar-looking analog meter that is Sperry branded, and may well be rebranded from the same factory that made that Sunwa. It doesn't have the 10k resistance range, so only runs from the 2 AA batteries, and thanks to the lack of active electronics, I have never changed the batteries in it in the 6-7 years I have had it. Nice fast continuity buzzer, too. Mine comes with an unfused 10A range as an added safety hazard ;-). Although probably not the kind of thing that one would want for their main meter, analog meters can occasionally have their moments. In select cases, the slow needle response can have a useful averaging effect on some high noise signals that can make a digital display unreadable, or signals with intermittent spikes and/or drop-outs, which can confuse the ranging on some autoranging meters.
The mirrored scale worked so well for such a simple way to remove paralax error :-). I also had a micronta analog meter 22-???? from tandys (no supprise), i would lie it flat and set zero, never tilting it, but that was just me, the resistance bias thumb wheel had to be reset for every range. Not bad for a cheap meter, it also had two batterys, same as the san wee waah wooh booo one :-D lol. I have an old avo mk8 analog for peaking radios, i love the big old scale and long needle. The old avo and simpson were good quality old beasts :-).
Mine was the 22-204A. I thought about getting one just for the fun of it. Mine had a single 9V in it. I was in the free battery club so pretty much set. I was looking at schematics for the high end analog meters and none of them I saw have any protection. I guess I am not too surprised. I thought about making one more video with this meter showing the rest of the protection circuits.
I dont remember being killed by my old analog meter, perhaps it was a matter of treating it with respect, or i was lucky LOL :-D. Although i blew the fuse when i forgot to change the setting from Ma to volts, the meter survived and i didnt do that again :-). You just want to release the magic smoke from that cheap meter lol :).
I played a fair amount with tube type equipment in those days. I knew very little about how things worked and my meter suffered because of it! lol. Looking at the schematic for the 204A, it's on par with this meter. I've never been too concerned with the safety side of meters. I've damaged my fair share of them during what I consider normal use. This is partly why I am making these videos public. At least people can see how they handle different conditions and how they compare with other meters.
Thanks for video. What's new is old. The original was called Sanwa YX360TR from Japan and fielded from the mid 1970s, it was a very popular meter in Asia to compete aginast lower end US based Simpson. It was accurate for appliances, transistor and tube based electronics. Key to analog meters was the quality of the meter movement and the ohms/volt metric. They were pretty hardy to transients although never rated for CAT as it was before it was invented; they nevertheless were resistant to transients as it had no active elements. I still have mine in use today as an AC line voltage monitor as it needs no batteries to work. It was heavily copied and cloned, Sunwa, Sunwei, Sanwei, etc., except one could never tell how good a meter movement clones were leading to unknown linearity problems across the needle swing. Sawna Japan still makes an updated version of it that alas, has active elements. Not sure why one needs analog these days and, made in Japan, is fairly expensive, about $50. It was born at a time Japan was emerging to become the then dominant force in electronics that China now has become. The legend was YX360 meant it covered the YX axis 360 degrees as a euphemism for general purpose electronics as well as "TR" for transistor use; 360 was also a popular model for the revered Simpson meter of the period. That this model number is still sold today even by cloners just shows how engrained the name for durability and popularly for its use in Asia. Finally the original version had components directly soldered on the rotary switch.
Hey, good to see you're still around. I think every meter I have tested has been resistant to transients. Some just more resistant than others. I did pick up a second analog meter that's a little more expensive and nicer.
Hello Joe. Yes, I watch and read just haven't time to post. Keep up the good work. It would be interesting to test my hypothesis, transient tests a pure analog meter that has only wirewound /and/or carbon resistors in it, as was early analog meters, and see how well it survives. Wirewound and carbon resistors are known to take short kV pulses very well but the actual parameters were never defined.
The real deal from a Japanese site: bal4u.dip.jp/hobby/archives/372 Probably circa 1978. I had used mine heavily around that time so I think the first one was 1975.
The WW parts should hold up alright. I made a video where I brew up a 2W carbon comp. There was not much left of it. I did not have the Sony camera then. I would not mind running a high end vintage meter if I could find one that was in rough cosmetic condition. Last one I saw for sale was a Simpson show peace. Appeared mint. The original Sanwa appears much higher quality. I like the wire contacts in the rotary switch. Not a fan of those test lead connections.
I have ran into this as well with some of the low end meters and it's why I run the offset tests. Strange they have the separate AC coupled input but did not pick a better value.
I have a nice collection analog meters, (VTVM, passive analog, active analog and specials like a HP peta-ohm/ fA meter) I use the normal ones only to fool around a bit, not for serious work although I sometimes feel nostalgic and repair a vintage instrument with vintage tools. (like a HP VNA from the sixties a while back) I restore them and adjust them as accurate as possible, just for fun. I repair test and calibration gear so plenty precision gear and standards and no problems adjusting an analog meter. But I never measured the current in the ohm range like you did so a nice excuse to play with my cuties while watching the TV. My most accurate one (it is really spot on in all ranges) is a beautiful Pantec Pictures: www.pa4tim.nl/?p=5615 It has a 0,1 ohm range and to my surprise it throws out over 700mA. I think about building an over the top analog meter (with a digital insert) with continuity beeper, diode test (adjustable up to 25V or so to test zeners etc, AC based capacitance measurement, adjustable current source, f.i to test leds , TRMS, autorange and autopolarity, temperature etc. Just for fun. I like your test box, what are the contacts made from ? Fred
Glad you enjoyed it. Most of my test equipment is more than 10 years old. lol. My VNA is 70s, with the thumb wheels. It's tied to a PC where I do all the math. Yea, I am a bit surprised there is still a market for these analog meters. Imaging testing your high $$$ digital board with 700mA! LOL I'm not sure which test box you are asking about. The box I use to check the calibration is just plain old steel. Nothing fancy at all. The transient generator is using Kings. The large gold plate connectors are for the RC cars and such.
The connectors on that box, on my small screen they look like small bolts. I have a small assortment box for that purpose. I have some calibrated L, R and C's in there, A few bad high ESR caps, some diodes, leds, a few transistors, a few small SMPS transformers. Just thin to do the basic tests.That is a nice transient generator. I have just repaired a commercial 0-5 kV at 100mA generator, made to torture transformers and motor windings, over 1 cm thick test leads. Now they brought in its current pulse sourcing sister (based on a capacitor bank) Fred
Ok, those are just cheap steel hardware. Ring terminals in the inside. Just a sanity check. I used to keep loose parts in a box but when I started running these meters, I made up this setup to speed the process. The generators and high voltage probes I show are all my own designs and hand built. I'm guessing you were looking at a Hipot tester. Mine are something like a surge generator but do not pack the same punch. The short circuit decay is much shorter than an IEC generator. The goal was never to make the meters explode like you will see in some of Fluke's videos. My peak currents are limited by the source impedance (always 2 ohms) along with the cables and such.
The output jack is a weird traditional name for an input with a DC-blocking cap. Simpsons and Tripletts also have these output jacks, going back to the 1950's. I think the name refers to their ability to read the AC on the output side of a tube amplifier while blocking the DC bias.
I learned how to use a meter on an analog meter back in the 70s - my father showed me how it worked. Pretty sure it was one from Radio Shack. That and learning how basic circuits worked in.. 2nd? grade is what got me started down what turned out to be a good career in computers/IT and my hobby, now occupation, with arcade games/pinball.
I am not sure what my first analog meter was. I've never ran across one that looked like it. I bought a few books from Radioshack on how to use a meter and an oscilloscope. I still have the books but my first meter and scope are long gone. I do still have my first digital meter which has been in several videos getting getting a lot of abuse. I recently rebuilt it. ua-cam.com/video/ObKomuLLqU8/v-deo.html
Congratulations on the review!!!!
Here in Brazil, audio amplifier repair technicians use old analog multimeters like the SANWA 320X and the HIOKI AS-100D to detect small leaks at the PN junctions of transistors.
These multimeters have features that we don't see in current digital ones, which are:
1. The x100K scale works with a 22.5v + 3v battery from the cells that total 25.5v, that is, the PN junctions are subjected to a voltage of approximately 25.5v. Different in the digital ones that it is in average of 3v. With the exception of the Fluke 87V which is around 7.9v.
2. Galvanometer works with 20µA on Sanwa and 9µA on Hioki AS-100D.
3. Coil resistance: 1817ohms.
With such characteristics, these instruments are unbeatable in detecting any microleakage in semiconductors.
Current digital multimeters cannot detect the low voltage at the PN junction, even the Brymen 869s or Flukes.
In view of the explanations, I ask the questions:
How are the most experienced technicians able to resolve these issues? Is there any equipment suitable for this job?
Thank you so much!
For looking at small currents the nA or resistance in the Gohms, I use a electrometer. HV diodes will also require a higher test voltage and in those cases I will use an external source.
I can't think of a time since getting my first DMM that I could have used an analog one.
You should make a video showing your troubleshooting techniques to detect bad and good components using both analog and digital meters.
Had an AVO 8 mark 2 back in the 70s/80s, this meter had a cut out which survived for about 15yrs tv repair work. I hit the focus anode of the crt more than a few times , again nice post thanks for your time.
Thanks for the info. I looked at the manual, schematic and pictures of this meter. If I understand the manual, they actually detect the needle position for an overload.
Didn't go in to exactly how it operated, but in the UK that meter was the standard referred to in most circuit diagrams. I believe the Simpson used something similar in some of their meters. i got the AVO second hand used it for about 15yrs and sold it on as far as i know it was still going strong in the mid 90s, keep up the good work, look forward to the next meter
Another nice video Joe, is it possible to have a few more analoge metre tests? hioki, kyoritsu and sanwa still have good quality analoge metres that could be interesting!
Thanks. Yes, I may be interested in looking at a couple more. Are you aware of any that have input protection and may survive these tests?
I always crack up when Mr. Smith calmly complains about some crap while trying to damage it :)
"It just made sooo cheap, with all passive components,,,,( long pose ),,, you think this would just go through just fine."
lol.
I use my Fluke meters for any measurements I need accuracy. I do like analog meters for times when I am looking for trends, such as the resonance frequency of a loudspeaker. You just want to see the peak (or null), and accuracy isnt needed. I would love to have an old analog Simpson meter like I used in the military years ago, but they are quite pricey these days.
I have a suspiciously similar-looking analog meter that is Sperry branded, and may well be rebranded from the same factory that made that Sunwa. It doesn't have the 10k resistance range, so only runs from the 2 AA batteries, and thanks to the lack of active electronics, I have never changed the batteries in it in the 6-7 years I have had it. Nice fast continuity buzzer, too. Mine comes with an unfused 10A range as an added safety hazard ;-).
Although probably not the kind of thing that one would want for their main meter, analog meters can occasionally have their moments. In select cases, the slow needle response can have a useful averaging effect on some high noise signals that can make a digital display unreadable, or signals with intermittent spikes and/or drop-outs, which can confuse the ranging on some autoranging meters.
Hey, my hair was that long with 13! And I got an analog meter. I turned 16 to see the first digital one with nixie tubes! I miss the look of it!!
Miss the look of your hair or the meter? Both?
The mirrored scale worked so well for such a simple way to remove paralax error :-).
I also had a micronta analog meter 22-???? from tandys (no supprise), i would lie it flat and set zero, never tilting it, but that was just me, the resistance bias thumb wheel had to be reset for every range.
Not bad for a cheap meter, it also had two batterys, same as the san wee waah wooh booo one :-D lol.
I have an old avo mk8 analog for peaking radios, i love the big old scale and long needle.
The old avo and simpson were good quality old beasts :-).
Mine was the 22-204A. I thought about getting one just for the fun of it. Mine had a single 9V in it. I was in the free battery club so pretty much set. I was looking at schematics for the high end analog meters and none of them I saw have any protection. I guess I am not too surprised. I thought about making one more video with this meter showing the rest of the protection circuits.
I dont remember being killed by my old analog meter, perhaps it was a matter of treating it with respect, or i was lucky LOL :-D.
Although i blew the fuse when i forgot to change the setting from Ma to volts, the meter survived and i didnt do that again :-).
You just want to release the magic smoke from that cheap meter lol :).
I played a fair amount with tube type equipment in those days. I knew very little about how things worked and my meter suffered because of it! lol. Looking at the schematic for the 204A, it's on par with this meter. I've never been too concerned with the safety side of meters. I've damaged my fair share of them during what I consider normal use. This is partly why I am making these videos public. At least people can see how they handle different conditions and how they compare with other meters.
I would appreciate a nice analog meter, not this one though, but definitely they have their own special corner.
I almost picked up a vintage Simpson last year.
Thanks for video. What's new is old. The original was called Sanwa YX360TR from Japan and fielded from the mid 1970s, it was a very popular meter in Asia to compete aginast lower end US based Simpson. It was accurate for appliances, transistor and tube based electronics. Key to analog meters was the quality of the meter movement and the ohms/volt metric. They were pretty hardy to transients although never rated for CAT as it was before it was invented; they nevertheless were resistant to transients as it had no active elements. I still have mine in use today as an AC line voltage monitor as it needs no batteries to work. It was heavily copied and cloned, Sunwa, Sunwei, Sanwei, etc., except one could never tell how good a meter movement clones were leading to unknown linearity problems across the needle swing. Sawna Japan still makes an updated version of it that alas, has active elements. Not sure why one needs analog these days and, made in Japan, is fairly expensive, about $50. It was born at a time Japan was emerging to become the then dominant force in electronics that China now has become. The legend was YX360 meant it covered the YX axis 360 degrees as a euphemism for general purpose electronics as well as "TR" for transistor use; 360 was also a popular model for the revered Simpson meter of the period. That this model number is still sold today even by cloners just shows how engrained the name for durability and popularly for its use in Asia. Finally the original version had components directly soldered on the rotary switch.
Hey, good to see you're still around. I think every meter I have tested has been resistant to transients. Some just more resistant than others. I did pick up a second analog meter that's a little more expensive and nicer.
Hello Joe. Yes, I watch and read just haven't time to post. Keep up the good work. It would be interesting to test my hypothesis, transient tests a pure analog meter that has only wirewound /and/or carbon resistors in it, as was early analog meters, and see how well it survives. Wirewound and carbon resistors are known to take short kV pulses very well but the actual parameters were never defined.
The real deal from a Japanese site:
bal4u.dip.jp/hobby/archives/372
Probably circa 1978.
I had used mine heavily around that time so I think the first one was 1975.
The WW parts should hold up alright. I made a video where I brew up a 2W carbon comp. There was not much left of it. I did not have the Sony camera then. I would not mind running a high end vintage meter if I could find one that was in rough cosmetic condition. Last one I saw for sale was a Simpson show peace. Appeared mint. The original Sanwa appears much higher quality. I like the wire contacts in the rotary switch. Not a fan of those test lead connections.
There are actually quite a few cheap digital meters that do the same thing in AC mode. ~double voltage one direction and zero the other
I have ran into this as well with some of the low end meters and it's why I run the offset tests. Strange they have the separate AC coupled input but did not pick a better value.
I have a nice collection analog meters, (VTVM, passive analog, active analog and specials like a HP peta-ohm/ fA meter) I use the normal ones only to fool around a bit, not for serious work although I sometimes feel nostalgic and repair a vintage instrument with vintage tools. (like a HP VNA from the sixties a while back) I restore them and adjust them as accurate as possible, just for fun. I repair test and calibration gear so plenty precision gear and standards and no problems adjusting an analog meter.
But I never measured the current in the ohm range like you did so a nice excuse to play with my cuties while watching the TV. My most accurate one (it is really spot on in all ranges) is a beautiful Pantec Pictures: www.pa4tim.nl/?p=5615
It has a 0,1 ohm range and to my surprise it throws out over 700mA.
I think about building an over the top analog meter (with a digital insert) with continuity beeper, diode test (adjustable up to 25V or so to test zeners etc, AC based capacitance measurement, adjustable current source, f.i to test leds , TRMS, autorange and autopolarity, temperature etc. Just for fun.
I like your test box, what are the contacts made from ?
Fred
Glad you enjoyed it. Most of my test equipment is more than 10 years old. lol. My VNA is 70s, with the thumb wheels. It's tied to a PC where I do all the math. Yea, I am a bit surprised there is still a market for these analog meters. Imaging testing your high $$$ digital board with 700mA! LOL I'm not sure which test box you are asking about. The box I use to check the calibration is just plain old steel. Nothing fancy at all. The transient generator is using Kings. The large gold plate connectors are for the RC cars and such.
The connectors on that box, on my small screen they look like small bolts. I have a small assortment box for that purpose. I have some calibrated L, R and C's in there, A few bad high ESR caps, some diodes, leds, a few transistors, a few small SMPS transformers. Just thin to do the basic tests.That is a nice transient generator. I have just repaired a commercial 0-5 kV at 100mA generator, made to torture transformers and motor windings, over 1 cm thick test leads. Now they brought in its current pulse sourcing sister (based on a capacitor bank) Fred
Ok, those are just cheap steel hardware. Ring terminals in the inside. Just a sanity check. I used to keep loose parts in a box but when I started running these meters, I made up this setup to speed the process. The generators and high voltage probes I show are all my own designs and hand built. I'm guessing you were looking at a Hipot tester. Mine are something like a surge generator but do not pack the same punch. The short circuit decay is much shorter than an IEC generator. The goal was never to make the meters explode like you will see in some of Fluke's videos. My peak currents are limited by the source impedance (always 2 ohms) along with the cables and such.
this is a clone