The TRUTH about RED's RAW Codec Lawsuits
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- Опубліковано 26 лип 2024
- The fight over RED's patent over compressed RAW that's over 2k resolution has been a thorn in the side of many new and old companies in the camera industry. With Nikon being the latest victim of the lawsuit-hungry RED Digital Cinema. But are they justified in doing this? Does Nikon have a point that they violated patent laws and failed to disclose it making the patent untenable?
In this video. we try to explore and explain the craziness that is patent laws surrounding codecs and REDCode RAW. Which side are you on?
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0:00 RED's Never ENDING fight for COMPRESSED RAW
1:19 Genius or Evil?
1:27 The early history of digital RAW for video
2:27 Red Digital Cinema Emerges From Nowhere and Defines the Industry
3:25 RED's new victim
3:57 RED Invented Internal Compressed RAW? RED's Patent
5:36 Other companies would develop their own codecs to get around this
6:03 TicoRAW or nRAW
6:17 RED Lawsuit History
6:35 Kinefinitey Lawsuit
6:54 Sony Lawsuit
7:24 Apple Lawsuit
8:05 Why Blackmagic hasn't been sued for BRAW
8:24 Why ARRI hasn't been sued for ARRIRAW
9:20 NIKON FIGHTS LAWSUIT: Claims Violation In Patent Laws By RED
9:44 Straight From RED's ARCH NEMESIS Jinni Tech
10:03 The PATENT LAW Red Violated (Claimed By Nikon and Jinni Tech)
10:21 REDCODE PATENT VIOLATION
11:08 RED's CAMERA PATENT VIOLATION
12:01 According to the law... seems on the surface like a violation of patent laws
12:36 What's at risk if NIKON loses?
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#redcode #RedLawsuit #FrameVoyager - Фільми й анімація
VIDEO NOTE: Thanks for Watching! We added some additional information down in the comments explaining REDCODE RAW a bit more if you were interested. Mainly since this wasn't the main focus of the video, the technical side that is.
In making this video we did the best could to try and explain Patent Laws and explain the basics of the RED codec. While we did our best to be completely accurate, in dense videos like these there can be a minor mistake or 2 so please let us know if we should amend anything here in the comments section!
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All modern Arri cameras use MXF wrapped Arriraw, instead of image sequences...
@@grumpybunny right! Forgot to mention they did that now. More focusing on how it was done around the time of the patent creation but that's a good point!
@@FrameVoyager fair enough! Until the Mini, I believe this was the case...
Red currently 'owns' the way a human's eyeball compresses visual data.
They should start suing babies and mother's for maximum profits!
@@runed0s86 if you're a nerd and have owned a Red camera and like to look up patents they hold after Jim Jannard lied to you, bold face, in a public forum, you might think their claims are specious at the very best. Get a judge who understands the tech even a little, and that patent is invalid.
Red = a brand that is holding back the whole industry over something they didn't invent.
Capitalism at it's real state. Capitalism looks great on paper, but when human greed isn't factored in it creates a system that ultimately stifles innovation, creates wealth gaps, and empowers the richest to pay for more laws that bennefit themselves even more. No political side taken, just a recap of what is happening currently.
@@chancehansen That happens in every political system, because people will always choose themselves over others. Socialism, communism, social democracy, monarchism, oligarchy, and free republic have the same issue. They look great on paper until you introduce people.
@@kyleranney Capitalism is not a political system 😂 It is an economic system
@@kyleranney The difference is Capitalism supports holding back the industry
To be fair, red was laughed out of the room when the said they were bringing 4K. And they did. They were laughed out of the room when they said they were bringing RAW. And they did.
At every stage they were ridiculed - and still - it was their tech that dragged an entire industry of digital cinema into our hands. It’s only fair that as pioneers who were pushing where everybody else was fearful to tread, that they retain some patents.
Nobody else had the foresight.
I hope that RED is not only striped of their fraudulent patent, but also held accountable damage they have caused to others.
Have you called your representative's office to demand REAL patent reform, meaning an end to SOFTWARE PATENTS? Software wasn't supposed to be patentable. It's wayyyy past time to correct the monumentally ignorant precedent that said otherwise.
It's funny, as great as RED's cameras are, they always leave a bad taste in my mouth when looking at their deliberate and abusive anti-competitive and ant-consumer practices (lawsuits, outrageously expensive proprietary tech). I hope they lose their patent early. It's a stupid patent that shouldn't have been granted to begin with.
That reminds me, I need to check on my pending patent of the human race. Can't wait to to receive royalties for every new baby born.
😂😂😂
😂🤣😂🤣😂
Are they really that Good tho?. They are expensive as all hell, unreliable, harder to use, proprietary bullshit galore and compared to ARRI the image quality is noticeably worse, especially in terms of DR, Color accuracy, noise. Good film makers do make good stuff with them, but that doesnt mean Stranger Things couldnt have been made on an ARRI, or even better on it.
I definitely can't afford either and the abilities of their cameras would be beyond me anyway, it always puts a smile on my face when I see creators using/moving to other brands like Blackmagic. Their cameras seem to have a better price/performance benefit anyway, and DaVinci Resolve is a powerful piece of software
@@brewcityboatclub8299 heck yeah man! I’ve got an URSA Mini Pro 4.6k and I’m loving it. Outside of being a little bulky for some scenarios, it’s fantastic.
What grinds my gears about the patent is that 4K cameras exisisted before RED, compressed RAW existed before RED and Internal RAW recording existed before RED. Yet, they get a patent on internal compressed RAW at resolutions over 2K??? I can agree about its use and implementation of certain tech, but ownership over all 3, is absurd.
The whole thing is kind of weird and came when the industry was really new for digital cameras. But I mean... I guess they got to it first? Still all weird
@@FrameVoyager I am not for copyright infringement and the team at RED do deserve credit for what they were able to accomplish. But what they are doing is like developing a font and claiming copyright on the alphabet then suing anyone else who makes a font.
@@BigBlobProductions Oh they deserve all the credit in the world for pulling off something only a handful of companies and people have been able to do.
@@FrameVoyager I think it's a perfect example of the patent office not knowing the gravity of what they are agreeing to and just approving it thinking that the patent that they are granting is probably some insignificant innovation like the sweater that has a kagaroo pouch for a cat they approved the week prior to reviewing this (i.e. that was just an example I don't know if they did that.). However, I'm not very familiar with the patent process so maybe they have a way to research it, but because it's the government I doubt it.
@@FrameVoyager haha!
Nikon - the hero we didn’t know we needed
Nikon is a pretty good company consodering they kept the f mount for like 60 years so i can buy a 200 mm lens from 1960 for 25 dollars on ebay
@@kipter Camera mounts are simple that's why. If they want to add more functionalities, all they just need to do is include one more contact point in the mount that passes the data for the new functionalities. What's great about this is it's automatically backward conpatible. So if a lens(old ones) only has three contact points while the body has 4, it will still work. This is the same with USB they just kept adding contact points to allow more functionalites. USB-A existed for almost 30yrs now and the reason why it's getting killed/replaced is just because of the formfactor, it's bulky and can only be inserted one way meanwhile USB-C is smaller and can be inserted in any orientation.
@@iamwisdomsky I hate usb c. If you look at it wrong it breaks
My respect for Nikon just increased significantly.
Nikon had compressed raw in its DSLRs before RED was even a company.
💯
Not for motion picture frame rates. :-p
Yeah that’s an interesting legal question. The first compressed raw capable nikon DSLRs were capable of 3fps maybe. But you can take that and make it into a 24fps or 60fps timelapse. It doesn’t seem like you should be able to get a patent granted simply by changing a number. Like you shouldn’t be granted a patent for a vehicle using a new type of motor but only if it’s top speed is X.
Red should be ashamed for even having the patent, and the patent office should be ashamed for allowing it. Imagine if Ford patented motorized vehicles on 4 wheels. That would be horrible.
but red patented it before anyone else could
You know shit is serious when you have both the billion dollar multinationals AND the final consumers on the same side
Let’s not forget about the DJI Ronin 4D losing its raw recording functionality between sending out samples for review and commercial release. I wonder why that happened?
Who could have kept the from doing it 🤔
@@FrameVoyager DJI tried to buy Red before they bought the other big brand. It was the best deal Red would've ever got. Very people know Red has been trying to sell for years and they get valuations every six months but since the hologram phone fraud / disaster they are getting hammered and now that real estate is going off a cliff even their studio is not as attractive as it was a few years ago.
What's interesting is that DJI obviously must have a license agreement to use Prores Raw in their drone but can't use it in their "cinema" camera. I wonder if this is because a drone doesn't compete with their core business but a cinema camera obviously would. The other license holder of Prores Raw, Atomos, who pay royalties to Red after being sued, make monitor/recorders also don't compete with the core business but any 'cinema' camera maker has not been successful so far.
@@SkyCoreLLC Now Nikon bought it. I wish they stop the misuse of this patent
I've been a part of a patent and involved with the patent process in the past. US PTO patent examiners often have some technical knowledge, but they are far from experts. Thus, it's quite possible to patent an invention that is "obvious" if written the right way with the help of a patent attorney. The hard part is enforcing patents, which is very expensive. There are companies who exist only to make money from enforcing patents (called NPEs, or Non-Practicing Entities). In Red's case, their patent does seem obvious and probably should never have been granted. People like RAW, but in the commercial production space most everyone is shooting Prores (non-RAW). It's hard to imagine that if the patent did not exist that it would materially impact their business. What they really sell is the sensor, a body, and its color science. None of those are part of the patent. For the sake of innovation and consumers, we can only hope that Red's patent is invalidated, or the patent expires and is not renewed in 5 years.
Hopefully! It's kind of crazy
Red’s strength is actually its codec. That’s why they protect it so strongly. Not a single camera can make files so high quality and so nice and easy to edit.
@@SaltEarthandSun The patent isn't actually for the codec. It's just for internal compression of raw video. The codec could be anything. If it was codec-specific, then they wouldn't be able to sue companies that use internal raw compressed recording using different codecs (e.g. Nikon's codec). As for Redcode being the highest quality and easiest to edit, I'm not sure what that means. Many codecs have comparable bit rates, and some like Arriraw are uncompressed, meaning no loss is compression resulting in the (arguably) highest possible fidelity (Redcode is lossy). If by easy to edit, you mean low system requirements/fast, that's not really true. The original Redcode uses wavelet compression that is challenging to decode. This is why Red sold the Red Rocket. Without an accelerator, computers just couldn't keep up. Even today, you need a beefy system to edit Redcode without proxies or turning down the resolution in your NLE. This is part of the reason that Red moved to discrete cosine transform (DCT) compression with the Komodo instead of wavelet. The files are bigger, but it's easier for computers to process than wavelet.
@@toddpeterson5904 Surprised with the DCT transformation. I always thought there is something different and now I get it, and explains the size also. on the other hand RAW compressed or uncompressed at the manipulation stage will yield a dramatically better image than any other type of pixel encoding.
Globally the US PTO is known to be open to abuse. Of course if Nikon, Sony, Canon, Panasonic etc all got together and ignored the Red Patent then Red would be screwed.
It does remind me of reading that in the days of early filmmaking. One man patented latent image matte paintings. For years he had an actual monopoly on the technique. Even though, the trick was just a simple controlled double exposure.
Well with groundbreaking technology, even if it's standard in the industry, good luck as the patent office trying to understand it and realize that it's fairly generic lol
Genuinely hate RED as a company because of this it doesn’t matter how good their cameras can be
I partially feel the same, although I still want to own one of their cams. Matter fact I want to own one of each... Arri, RED, Sony, Canon, black magic..
RED is like Oracle of the camera industry.
@@xp0079 Or even more appropriate, they're like the SCO UNIX of the camera industry.
I believe Nikon may win. As a software developer who write compression algorithms for a living, Nikon has a different codec than Red's. I think red just wants to hold a monopoly for RAW video. Besides lawsuits take years to fight and win. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Good on you Nikon.
The problem here is that REDs patent is phrased in a way that it uses one form of bayer pattern compression as an example and then goes ahead and states ‘or any other method of compression’
Problem is, you are banking on the possibility that the judges are able to handle these technical topics. As a programmer, I can also see clearly that RED's patent is unequivocally a joke, you can't own compression, you can own a specific codec, sure, but you can't own the very act of compressing a file, that is, in any way you look at it, an absolute joke. But again, that doesn't mean judges will be properly equipped to deal with these technical cases, or that patent laws make any sense in the first place.
Case was dismissed. Nikon wins.
I've always had issues with the red patent as it's way too generic. And resembles too much what digital still cameras were already doing
I had no idea this was happening. I'll never buy or support Red
Yeah, that's why most cameras really don't have true compressed raw
@@FrameVoyager how did Sigma FP get a way with it then?
@@makosports why did red sue Blackmagic over CDNG?
And their marketing strategy is also shit, i.e giving away cameras to actors who has no talent in shooting films other than acting in them (Jason Momoa was shooting fucking skaters on his golden Comodo, my ass)
Their cameras just seem to be dogshit. Marques Brownlee uses them and his died during video shoots multiple times. His collaboration with MrWhoseTheBoss had to be shot twice because of it.
Read RED's Patent here --> patents.google.com/patent/US8872933B2/en
The patent covers compressed raw recording both internally and externally. Read the description of Fig 2. "Additionally, in some embodiments, the storage device '24' can be mounted to an exterior of the housing." This has also been proven in reality because Atomos came to an agreement and pay royalties to Red to use Prores Raw in their devices.
🤔
By revenue, Nikon is 20x the size of RED, they can afford the lawyers, they can bury RED if they desired.
I hope so!
but Nikon is a Japanese company. I hope it doesn't become like Toyota someday
MORE IN DEPTH about how REDCODE RAW works from RED (This was the hardest section to try and put into simple terms) --> docs.red.com/955-0179/REV-B/Benefits%20%26%20Evolution%20of%20REDCODE%20RAW.pdf
Arri really cares about the evolution of the film industry, that's why it's number 1. Recently They created a new lens mouthpiece, patented it and will allow other brands to use this proprietary Arri mouthpiece, so that simply both lenses and cameras can communicate each other.
The reason why Red will never sue Arri is because Arri invented cine cameras. Arri owns thousands of cine patents that they never exploit and allow many others to use freely. But if Arri wanted to, they could sue Red for everything they have.
You all are bugged out. Almost EVERY major camera company licenses internal RAW recording from RED. They don't hold anyone back, but they do ask for licensing fees like every other patent holding company in existence! RED licenses technology from other companies as well. Reading these comments is really tiring.
Awesome reseach! I'm really excited to see where this will lead to. There's something about RED that seems like they enjoy bullying other companies. I wouldn't mind them losing this lawsuit, to be honest.
You can thank our researcher Cheecken for really helping dig into this. It was A LOT.
And yeahhhh, that kind of culture was brought with Jannard from Oakley too. You see a lot of the same tactics with that company.
@@FrameVoyager unfortunately the research was a bit light on the facts. The patent is about using compressed RAW (non-debayered image data) with resolutions over 2K and at motion picture frame rates. The wavelet compression itself was licensed. The codec was as I understand also based on some special way of using pre-emphasis (and later de-emphasis) on the native RGB data from the sensor to better compress the values as visually lossless.
FYI, depending on the camera, Arriraw is either individual .ari files or a single mxf file. Also to note is that Arri does have compressed raw, but not in camera. When you export from the codex capture card you can do lossless compression (called High Density Encoding or HDE) as it transfers the files from the card to the computer. It doesn't slow down the transfer process and saves about 40%. HDE files are still a bit bigger than Prores 4444, but you get the full RAW goodness for not much more storage space.
Right! Probably should have made note of that. Some of the technical stuff you can get a bit one track minded on and not follow the processes all the way down 😂
@@FrameVoyager No problem at all. I love your videos. Got hooked on the abandoned cameras series, but these others are great too. Keep it up!
Good to hear! Still doing ABANDONED video but trying to spread out and tackle some other projects too or else I'll run out of ABANDONED cameras haha
@@kemalettinsrt only if you’re not using codex media, which is only the mini and Amira. The license is included with xt, sxt, lf, mini lf, 35, and 65, which all use codex capture drives
03:25 that sound with z9 intro video really caught my eyes. You have a very good editing skill. I'm going to explore more videos of your channel
Appreciate it!
Check those videos that explains everything about how Red is a joke : ua-cam.com/users/JinniTech
Patenting internal raw recording is like patenting running water. There is nothing innovative that should be patentable here.
🌊
Then would you be so kind as to describe the implementation? Is there anything specific to Bayer that you might use to compress the data yet remain visually nearly lossless at 23 fps and 2k resolution? Can you predict any difficulties? How would you overcome those difficulties? What about non-Bayer patterns?
And since it is as easy as running tap water (which is probably more complex than you think), would you mind implementing your algorithm on silicon and sharing your chips with the whole class?
@@asitriresearch I happen to be en engineer and have a patent. To qualify for the patent and win in the court, it should not be the idea of internal compression or running water that can hold up. It should be the specific algorithm. But then anyone should be able to invent an alternative algorithm and not be bound by your patent. However, over the years, the patent office has issued multiple garbage patents which allowed patent trolls to suck the blood out off legitimate companies and at the expense of consumers.
Now, if you are actually one of these patent trolls, we'll then, I can understand why you are so offended. Your livelihood may depend on screwing people for money.
@@CO8848_2 RED did not patent the "idea" of internal compression. They have a patent on an implemented solution to a specific problem as described in their claims. US law is explicit in saying a "process" is patentable. Further, US patent law is clear that an algorithm alone cannot be patented.
@@asitriresearch you are simply wrong. An abstract idea cannot be patented, on the other hand, algorithms are patented all the time. Your response shows you are simply ignorant of the matter. In particular. Red's patent is in fact a generic abstract idea, in that its key component has no specificity, it basically says to store more data on the part where there is more detail. Only someone who has no training in statistical technique called stratified sampling would consider this a novel idea.. the fact they showed a camera that can store the data using sata internally further should not be patentable. It is like saying i designed a particular model of a camera and you cannot thus store internal raw data because now i have a patent. I have a software patent myself and I can tell you for sure this area of the patent is full of nonsense and inconsistency. Having read the whole red patent myself, I find it entirely nonsensical this patent should stop anyone else being able to create cameras with internal raw, let alone claims of "almost visually lossless", or 'at least 2k and 23p". These phrases simply show how empty this claims of novelty it is
I feel like, in an alternate universe, internal compressed raw was available to any camera manufacturer and filmmakers gained access to raw image processing 10 years earlier ushering in a second renaissance of video production and colour grading. Thanks RED.
Cineform RAW has been available for a long time, but seems to have been forgotten about. It was never tied to any one platform and was also made open source in 2017.
@@Wombletronix Gopro uses it for photos?
Thanks for the credit.
I intended to make a few more in depth videos to demystify Redcode but had to deal with the Red lawsuit against JinniTech UA-cam channel for the past 2 years.
Your video was inspiring. Await Jinni's new videos soon!
😎
You're alive!!! 👀 I'm just kidding 😅
Look forward to seeing another video! Your stuff was always so informative, especially on the red minimag 🙄
GO NIKON!!!
I think that Red initially pushed the industry forward in great ways, but it has now flopped and they are holding the industry back
Yep!
There's campaign "End software patents" by FSF started years ago against, you guessed it - algorithmical patents
I'm entertained, thank you John! I hope Nikon can crack the case, and open up a world of possibilities for everyone!
It would be nice! Not sure if they will even with the evidence but we shall see.
Yk I'm Nikon fanboy, I want them to win 😂 no hate on Red 🤭
I'm not sure that'll happen as not even apple, another overly litigious for the sake of holding back innovation company, were able to win against red, again, not even apple
@@zebius4157 but apple is "friends" with RED. So it wasn't a super hard hitting fight
@@FrameVoyager yeah, they're both deeply entrenched in the prosumer market. Apple even sold red camera kits on their website I can see that
The way the redcode wavelet compression works requires a partial debayer also (as mentioned regarding BRAW) - so in effect Redcode is as truly "raw" as Braw is - the key difference is to the usage of wavelet vs DCT.
Well BRAW switches up the placement of the processing as well. But good point. Sometimes hard to know how far in the weeds to get with some of this haha
and the wavelet compression is...get this JPEG2000. RED's patent is a joke and a symptom of the broken system more than any revolutionary kind of innovation in the industry.
@@jessejayphotography yep, you're right. Also the latest red camera uses DCT instead it seems. Likely for cost/power reasons. So on the one hand they brag about how amazing it is because of wavelet and on the other hand abandon it
That is untrue. REDCODE does a funny YUV conversion, but it is not partial debayer in sense as the BRAW patent is done. There are definitely differences between the two.
@@cameramaker you can't do a yuv conversion or anything other than basic mathematical transformers until it's video data
Sidenote: The first Nikon and Canon pro DSLR bodies had raw image recording around 2000. I researched for a story not too long ago, but I couldn't find the exact origin point of these formats. The RED patent I feel is very anti-consumer, and it's been holding back the capabilities of pretty much every other video camera for years. I don't even like the images coming out of RED cameras, especially those early ones. I've been watching through Better Call Saul, shot on RED, and so many shots have a hazy green tinge. Actor's with blue eyes have this weird glowing 'halo' around their irises, and it's very distracting. I'd bet these are the reasons they switched to Alexa in the last couple seasons.
Yep own a red epic dragon personally and the legacy color debayering pipelines does not handle extreme colors or highlights well, ipp2 improved on that significantly.
@@imabigsandwich1292 I've noticed those green shifts on my GH5 and other Panasonics as well, but for $800 I don't complain so much lol. GH6 colors look to be spot on.
@@MotorFriend yep the hazy green tinge is cus of the legacy color pipelines, ipp2 fixed it basically, but the gh6 does look great, just that it has about 3 stops less latitude which still ain't bad considering how small the sensor is.
Here's a question: If RED never was, would the industry be better off? If yes, or no, why?
I think it's kind of a wash. They pushed the industry forward for sure! Like we may not have gotten an ARRI Alexa if not for them. But I think they also did a bunch weird business practices early on in their history that I do question. Granted, could they have survived if not for that? Probably not.
Much further ahead. Imagine if there were no lawsuits for the past decade holding camera development back.
It's not going to take a genius to think, "Hey, what if we take the sensor from DSLRs, strapped a cooling fan to it, shoved in some sunglasses, and recorded sound while blasting off frames?". Whether RED existed or not, it would have come to shape. Not that hard of a concept to imagine and create. Without a silly patent like this, the consumer would have more choices. Whether that's a good or bad thing, idk. Personally I think it's dumb as every company has their own way of doing compressed RAW, but RED's patent is along the lines of "You are not allowed to drink soft drinks with straws, only we can do it" level of retard.
The silly patent did force the invention of BRAW though, which is pretty sweet and I think perfect for smol people like me with smol budgets and don't work on set.
Yes
@@professionalpotato4764 I don't want to defend RED at all, but, hadn't they come around, digital cinema tech would've evolved at a slower pace, if only because most established manufacturers are very cautious and would wait longer to refine their tech instead of pushing out a camera as glitchy and limited as the Red ONE. Red presented themselves as a young revolutionary company on the filmmakers' side, giving people what they wanted unlike the "old guys", which made a lot of people overlook the serious issues the camera had, quickly turning it into THE digital cinema camera for a little while. In doing so, RED set new standards that would've taken longer to get adopted, but it didn't take long for their rivals to catch up and come up with better tech. Before I am attacked by some fanboys, I am going to list all the problems I did encounter with the Red ONE: it couldn't stand neither low or high temperatures although they were within the range of any piece of professional equipment, it would corrupt files, it used CF cards but was incompatible with most products already on the market, the external hard-drive recorder was too susceptible to vibrations, sometimes the camera would shut down for no apparent reason (oh yeah, it did!) and, above all, it didn't properly work with color temperatures below 5600K! That was probably one of the biggest flaws and it was only fixed a couple of years later when the new Mysterium-X sensor was introduced. Until then, shooting a scene lit with incandescent light meant that image quality would drop tremendously. And, if you complained about it, Jim Jannard would simply tell you that the Mysterium was "daylight-native", so you had to use daylight light sources (!!!!).
How has Red's patent not been struck down by prior art claims? I'm sure the compression can be traced down to some derivative of LZ77 or LZ78.
Probably because no one at the patent office understood what this was and Patent's are RARELY overturned even with evidence against them
Red patent uses wavelet compression for the lossy compression data reduction stage. Wavelet compression for video has prior art, yes.
If any part of the compression chain uses any traditional compression scheme, I dunno. Compression / storage after the data reduction stage is more mundane than the lossy part yes, iirc various codecs uses runtime length encoding, Huffman and what not, there’s probably some LZ based out there as well.
@@randomgeocacher RED licenses the wavelet compression for their codec. Compression and codec is not the same thing. But as noted the patent is about the idea of shoting compressed RAW internaly at video FPS. There is also RED patent(s) for pre-emphasing the RGB values before compression to make the codec visually lossless.
I'll never spend a cent on a Red product, hopefully this BS is shut down so that brands that make far more usable cameras (Sony and Canon) can take advantage of this (not so) proprietary technology.
AGREED! And hey 👋👋👋 read your articles all the time haha. good ol' SC drama 😂
@@FrameVoyager Haha that is awesome... I didn't think anyone would know who I was when I decided to dump on RED, but we use Sony in our studio for a reason, the ease of use to image quality to price ratio is unbeatable. But I would love to see the next generation of Alpha cameras include compressed raw internally since I don't want to have to deal with an Atamos to get raw when I need it.
@@FitsTube haha I used to work in politics in SC until I got out in 2016... for obvious reasons 😂
But yeahhhh, I use Blackmagic design cameras mostly but Sony is great! Atomos is really a pain to deal with haha. It's nice to have internal compressed raw!
@@FrameVoyager Its funny because I would still mostly use 10 bit given the long run times of most of what I film, but having the ability to save a really flexible image when im in run and gun situations would be huge. I love Blackmagic and would switch to their system if they could get their AF and IBIS up to par, but I understand that most of their users pull focus and use good stabilization.
Yeah I interviewed BMD at NAB this year and asked them about autofocus 😂 not going to happen haha. Now they did finally release the ability to use the internal gyro data to stabilize footage in post in resolve but yeah, I can imagine for what you're filming Sony is the way to go. I've actually considered getting an a7iv just for the 5axis-stabalization
If your a Z9 owner, I’d make sure to store that 2.0 firmware somewhere safe. Just in case Nikon loses.
2.1 actually, Nikon made a 2.1 firmware to improve af performance, and nraw is still there.
@@qiyuxuan9437 Ahh. Gotcha.
Yo, if Nikon actually wins this suit, y’all better put some respect on their name when it comes to video cameras.
RED are patent trolls just as bad as some free-standing well known malicious actors, maybe even as bad as Apple. They make some good cameras, but their marketing is often pure and utter BS. Often they spend more on legal consultants than on actual development, just as Apple does (last time apple spent more on soft/hard devs than on lawyers was 2011....)
The patent in itself is pretty pathetic, now I'm speaking as a codec and development specialist with over 30 years of digital image coding experience. From a TECHNICAL point of view, the patent is extremely weak. I hope it falls on the technicalities mentioned in the video -
AND I hope that all the former victims of RED's malicious and probably illegal business practises are reopened for recompensation. They deserve nothing less.
Hope so too! Unfortunately very few patent laws get over turned
"Getting a patent is uncorrelated to any positive attributes, and just serves to allow either money or wasted effort to be extorted from generally unsuspecting and innocent people or companies. The idea that I can be presented with a problem, set out to logically solve it with the tools at hand, and wind up with a program that could not be legally used because someone else followed the same logical steps some years ago and filed for a patent on it is horrifying."
- John Carmack, Developer -
RED isn't going to go down without a fight. There used to be tons of RED epics at rental houses. Today I still haven't even seen a RED Raptor in any rental house. Only the DXL at Panavision. Every other rental house is staying with Arri and Sony so RED will be left to selling things like the Komodo to prosumers. Unless they drop the price of their top cinema line to be more affordable to prosumers they'll probably be operating at a loss seeing as how no one wants to pay them to use internal raw. They're going to lose this patent eventually so there will be more high image quality cameras out there on the market for lower prices. Get ready.
if we all boycott Red, its patent will disappear. If I had money, I'd immediately buy Nikon Z9 to support this fight.
I can buy a Nikon Z9 for ya, in fact I can buy 10, because I have lots of money, Thanks in part to my RED cameras.
Lifelong Nikon user but also love my RED camera!
Sadly, no, that's not how capitalism works. If Red filed for bankruptcy, its creditors would gobble up their patented IP. The rest of the industry would then be victimized by corporate vultures squeezing every penny out of their legally hijacked patent portfolios.
@@intenseillusions and you would have done the same money without their patent...
@@stephanes. No, it makes my RED services have advantages other cameras can't offer. You would be mad if anyone could just go and use your footage, or sell your script.
Could you imagine if Apple, BMD, Sony & Canon could have “true” RAW in their cameras.
Red sees the writing on the wall, so they are fighting for their dear life. But the smart move would have been for them to make money off of all the licenses & focus on their sensor tech.
I would like BMD to try to make a deal with Red & have us the consumer make the choice if we want to purchase a license for True Braw, I would purchase it.
It's not even their sensor tech though, RED is literally a dropshipping and repackaging company in the cinema world
I personally prefer BRAW already. I just don't like blackmagic hardware.
@OU-ITR-test What? Canon making the RED Komodo? That is definitely not the case!
@@MaxRovensky How do you know it's not their sensor tech? They might not produce their sensors in house (not many camera companies do, not even Arri). But how do you know it is not their technology I wonder. Can you elaborate?
@@RubenStuveling there's an interview video where they literally talk about "finding the mysterium sensor"
Look up jinnytech's videos about RED, he goes into excruciating detail about how RED is a quintessential "fake it till you make it" example
Saying that there were no RAW formats before DNG is simply wrong.
As a 1st AC that has spent about 7 years ACing all the big Arri Alexa, Sony (big league cams) and Red cams, Red is by far the most annoying to work with, the most finicky, and most sensitive. Have to babysit those things. If a battery disconnects somehow while recording, it corrupts the card. Every Alexa (I’ve used hundreds of times) will still wrap the file and save it even if the camera goes down, and still works! Sony and Alexa, you just pop cards out whenever the camera is on standby. With Red, if you don’t wait for the ejecting process, the card corrupts. Arri’s Alexas, Sony’s Venice and F55, they’re true digital cinema cameras. The Reds are more like camera computers that have to be treated like sensitive computer tech. Not ideal for the field. They still work it’s just annoying
Nikon just said "fuck it bro, we have the money...well just buy your damn company"
hahaha pretty much!
That’s like ford suing other car companies for making left hand drive vehicles, forcing every other company to make right hand drive cars, can you imagine? Like why is this a thing when it is more convenient to just not have that patent.
What a fascinating story told in a very well researched and in depth way. Your visuals are also top notch!
Thanks for covering this mate ❤
how do you patent "compression"? This should be illegal. You can patent a proprietary method of compression and your own format but patenting "compression" in a larger sense as it relates to RAW video shouldn't be a thing: It's like patenting image capturing and suing anybody who makes camera and camera sensors . This would create a monopoly and halt competitiveness in the industry. It shouldn't be allowed.
Yep! That's the problem with dry and boring technical stuff like this is the patent office probably didn't have an industry experts looking at this back then. Mostly because it was still new
This is what SONY has challenged, and the result was that the patent got an addendum that the compression/codec is a JPEG2000.
@@cameramaker lmao so reds shoot jpegs ?
I mean… they sold $12 sunnies for $700.
It’s the same thing, but just a camera.
I love RED but they gonna struggle one their patent lapses
Yet most productions in Europe and USA use arri or Sony Venice for big production 🤘
🤘🤘🤘
Interesting. But if what Red did was against the law (as it seriously seems to have been) then the patent should be thrown out AND all of the legal fees for all the companies that have sued or been sued by Red should be reimbursed. In short, this should be the death nail of the company. Lets hope.
Another interesting patent is the Zaxcom's US patent for a functioning headphone jack on body pack recorders. I can't recall if the innovation was to route the input to a headphone jack while recording or turning a box with a mic input and headphone jack into a recording device. Either way it's hard to believe nobody thought about it before them.
Interesting 🤔
That’s not at all what Zaxcom’s patent is about, but it is an interesting parallel story.
@@prkatzman kinda trolling but the consequence is that e.g. The US version of Zoom F2 isn't allowed to provide monitoring while recording. Which seems hilarious anyway.
I wonder if their patent application was rejected in EU or didn't they thought that people will just import the EU models.
imagine if the wheel was patented.
it would have been expired after 20 years...
So, um, look up John Keogh and the Australian patent office…
if the wheel WERE patented
What's outrageous about the patent granted to Red is that unlike the many patents that protect proprietary codec compression algorithms (e.g. Apple ProRes 422 Codec Family), Red's patent claims ownership of the entire concept of in-camera RAW compression (but only when applied to resolutions above 2K). This is a bad faith, blatant perversion of the legitimate purpose of patent protection that is both unoriginal anti-competitive. Nikon deserves our moral and financial support for challenging this gross abuse of the patent system.
I love my red komodo, yet I absolutely hate everything Red does from a business standpoint
Its interesting that patent laws at the same time infringe on competition laws which state that you cannot have a monopoly.
This is such a cool channel, I feel like I am watching a really niche TV show
Appreciate it! Glad everyone is liking some of the content that's not ABANDONED related haha
What if the compression happens on a filesystem level? A filesystem-compressed uncompressed-raw is not the same thing but practically the same thing (if optimised for a video data stream).
Or what if camera companies open up their firmware to allow user plugins that could allow user-written/installed compressed raw formats?
I was wondering the same but hardware-wise, being a storage device connected via a high-speed bus the one that does the compression so both elements could work independently (the camera could use normal mags to store non-compressed raw, the "special" mag could work as a normal one in non-compliant cameras)
The RED patent basically says “(state of the art) BUT: in-camera, 4K, 24+FPS”. A bit annoying that so minor change from state of the art warranted a patent. But patent granting offices are great at granting patents (instead of rejecting applications…)
You are not allowed to patent state of the art. The RED patent takes state of the art and adds a couple of qualifiers around it; “in a camera”, “resolution above”, “frame rate of”… basically a, b, c all exists and red patented a+b+c combo.
At my university there was wavelet based compression video apps for pocket computers way before the RED patent so everything about the patent is clearly state of the art before the patent. Only resolution/FPS/in-camera was unusual at its introduction.
So aside from the incorrect patent filing, the question to mankind is how small additions to state of the art should be patentable. The RED patent is clearly a borderline.
This is especially an issue with US patent law. There is a reason RED never got a EU (or any other place) patent for their pseudo-invention
I hope someday Apple ends up coming out with large capacity and fast external drives that are so affordable that shooting uncompressed raw isn't even an issue. Thus making RED's patent pointless. But otherwise I hope the paten is made no longer valid and competition can begin to grow in making the best possible compressed raw codecs.
Agreed! Could you imagine what that would unlock even beyond the camera industry? iPhones with compressed internal RAW video? lol
This exists today in the Sigma fp. It’s really not so bad, as the footage can be losslessly compressed to a fraction of its uncompressed size with a program called SlimRaw, and you perform this step as part of your ingest so it never touches your archive drive. A cheap 2TB samsung ssd holds around 1h30m of uncompressed footage.
Not compressing is wasting bits; I.e. undue technological costs, more cards, more disks, and more impact to the environment. I.e. patents reducing availability of compression has a cost to society and the environment.
There's a firmware mod for the canon eos M that lets you record uncompressed 1080p raw to SD cards. And if speed really is an issue for larger resolutions, I would expect a company like quioxia, intel or samsung to come up with faster storage because these companies actually have experience manufacturing high performance storage for industrial applications, apple just buys it's storage from samsung, like everybody.
Apple affordable and not overpriced storage, that day iphone will run android
Thank you for creating this video. How could the public (independent filmmakers) take a stand against this patent so other companies could implement internal ProRes RAW and CinemaDNG?
No problem! Honestly really only by not buying RED products. Which tbf I don't think are bad. I mean great directors and DP's have used them to great success. But for us that have to make an actual living with them. They've just done too much weird stuff over the years like way over charging for things like their Red Minimags that were standards SSD's. That's where someone like Blackmagic just makes more sense. I really hope they get away from some of the business practices Jannard brought to the company from Oakley at the beginning
Just insist on using non-patented formats. Plenty of choices.
Good coverage for the story. I would've appreciated to see something about the story of Cineform RAW and Silicon Imaging showing how RED crippled this startup because they hadn't patents to hold against RED.. this is little personal actually because I believed what cineform did was more efficient, faster to process and better quality than RED's own implementation. One time they released a tool that could convert r3d raw files into cineform raw directly without debayering. in fact converted files were playing much faster than the original r3d. RED was so angry about that and forced them to stop the project.
I love how today we have 16-40msps 8/10bit RF for VHS-Betacam RAW captures thats lossless compressed with FLAC (VHS-Decode),
but also B-Raw/ProRes RAW are taking stage as defacto raw standards though I do have a bias towards CDNG as the DNG last update has added much to the scope of abbility.
Supposedly, a patent can't be granted for something that is obvious in the art, and that ought to have been the end of it.
Hopefully Nikon will break this crap & open world of possibilities for everyone. 👍
Yup, patent laws, as they exist today, are DUMB.
10000% and their is even question how much power the patent offices even have today. I agree that the patent law issue that RED has is kind of dumb but at the same time everyone else has to adhere to the same patent laws. You gotta wonder if they had disclosed it if it would have been that massive of an issue
Not just patent laws, but most law and bylaws in general.
Why can’t influencers and customers rile together to stop Red from suing people and ask them to stop. Just allow compressed RAW video for everyone. It’s really simple ask and could go very far with everyone holding a phone or camera.
Damn fine video! Exceedingly engaging and interesting...
I'm not sure what's worse. Someone at the patent office doesn't understand the difference between "you can't use our specific compression method" versus "only we are allowed to compress things"... or they understand it, and think it's totally reasonable.
It’s not that simple. Here’s what happens: company files application for a bogus patent. Patent examiner who is knowledgeable in the subject rejects it. Company tweaks the wording to make it harder to understand and refiles the application. USPTO rules say a refile can’t go to the same patent examiner, so it goes to the next knowledgeable examiner. They reject it too. This cycle repeats until they’ve cycled through all the knowledgeable patent examiners. So now it lands on the desk of someone who is less knowledgeable in that field, doesn’t actually understand the claim or why it’s obvious, and issues the patent.
If Nikon wins, then I’ll buy a complete gear from them ❤
Thank you we appreciate
Great Video!
Every camera company should create a patent that prohibits red to use any of their sensors or adapters to film. That way Red would have to make their own mounting system. Watch them scrounge around as their camera become unwanted.
So if Nikon wins then that translates that Red’s patent is invalid and that leaves all brands to implement compressed raw like red code raw? I wish Nikon wins!!
The patent system is so inherently broken if it approves a patent like that. It's insane!
Here’s how it works: company files application for a bogus patent. Patent clerk who is knowledgeable in the subject rejects it. Company tweaks the wording to make it harder to understand and refiles the application. USPTO rules say a refile can’t go to the same patent clerk, so it goes to the next knowledgeable clerk. They reject it too. This cycle repeats until they’ve cycled through all the knowledgeable patent clerks. So now it goes to someone who is less knowledgeable in that field, doesn’t understand the claim, and issues the patent.
Thank you for sharing this tutorial
Please do an episode in the si2k from silicon imaging and cineform in 2006. It shot raw internal to cineform which makes red patent of the same thing at 4K a little “stretchy”. Slumdog millionaire was shot on the si2k and got the Oscar for cinematography.
Thank you Nikon for being there for us!
One thing we can do is not buy stuff from patent trolls.
Absolutely
Would love an update on this knowing now that Nikon won by getting the case 100% dismissed.
Already have a script written 😅
@@FrameVoyager ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐
is it not possible for Nikon to offer N-Raw firmware outside of the US.
To this day I still don't understand how RED managed to patent something so vague as "Internal RAW Video": that's a very loose concept, there's nothing specific about it. It's like patenting a copper-wire lightbulb and then preventing somebody else from producing an LED lightbulb because "hey, it's still a lightbulb!"
Actually does not sound the same at all to anyone of sound mind.
@@JonPais It's an hyperbole.
I figured out red were a bunch of snakes a while ago. It seems everyone else did too. I can’t remember the last time I was on set with a red. The Venice 2 and the Alexa LF/35 have pretty much destroyed red. They are pretty much a company for UA-cam creators now (no offense. Love this channel).
Hahaha none taken! Make no apologies for being strictly a UA-camr who likes cameras! haha
Red is really happy with where they are standing, so if by some chance the patent is invalidated/expired, you can prob expect the company to struggle since other’s will be ready to roll out their version of the codec in a matter of days, since they probably have already some type of similar codec not launched with any cameras but for in-house experimentation only.
A good chunk of indie and commercial productions in the U.K. ask for RED (because the producers fell for marketing I guess) but broadcast and most corporate is all Sony FX, micro budget filmmaking is all Blackmagic and the big boy stuff is all Arri and a bit of Venice 2. I still reckon the Komodo has sold insanely well though.
Yep! It's because red markets not to the DPs that use their cameras but to our clients who think they are the best cameras. Genius marketing, terrible for us
@@maximilliannewcombe1719 I mean yeah, red is not in any of those markets (even if they've seen crossover in those markets), they're in the prosumer market, like apple. I'll make an analogy, if windows is the microbudget and Linux is the broadcast and big boy stuff, apple is in the middle, the "prosumer" market, just mediocre enough to be out of the professional market in any large scale, and just out of reach to be in the consumer market.
I always thought that you couldn't patent an algorithm. which a compression algo seems to be
You know, sony, apple and nikon could just do what BM does. Debayer the images and store it as compressed high dynamic range images, which not only gets around reds patents, but is also much faster in the video editor…
Tbh a colour managed log workflow is very close to RAW. I believe BRAW is simply just a better version of that
@@Michael-dx8qz I disagree. I tried both routes, and I found every variation of log workflow to be a nightmare compared to the braw experience of „it just works“. Here is my experience:
I did a simple test project to compare both workflows. Used cheap studio lights, a sony a6400, so I know I will be color challenged (i.e, without color grading it is gonna look like cheese) and a bmpcc6k. The subject was of a darker complexion with a difficult skin tone (half middle eastern). Took raw reference pictures with the a6400, bmpcc6k and canon 80D, just to have a good baseline reference of what these sensors can do. Recorded a 30s segment of video in various configurations on the a6400 and braw on bmpcc6k. Had variations of perfectly exposed as well as up to 2 stops under/over. I know the 6400 isnt a good video shooter, but it should be at least acceptably usable. Turned of as much in-camera processing as possible and neutral picture styles.
Latitude, color reproduction and dynamic range from all sensors inphotography was absolutely fine, with some minor WB/contrast adjustments, pictures look indistuingishable. Recovery of 2 stops under/over exposed absolutely no problem. Color shifts are so minor to not be worth talking about.
The same holds true for braw, within a few minutes of poking at wb/contrast, it looks extremely close to reference.
Log… is a different matter. I spent literally days combing trough every possible combination of logs, decode method, luts, color space, etc. And even perfectly exposed footage is ungradable, skin tone looks never right. Log just butchered the colors. It also butchered all image fidelity, the compression artifacts are extremely obvious, sharpness is way gone. And once I start recovering 2-steps under exposed (by which point you can completely give up on any sort of color rendition other than comical), the result is best described as pixel mud.
idk how compressed braw works exactly. But whatever it does, even at its most compressed settings, it runs laps around xavc/h265/log. The simple realization for me is that mpeg compression is not meant or usable as a video source format. It was never meant to be. And no matter how many bits, chroma ratios, bitrates, etc. you throw at it, the ouput is always shitty color baked pixel mud that cant be graded or recovered. If the mpeg/log/xavc footage outof camera does not look exactly like what you want or has circumstancial issues of the kind of „real world“, you are fucked, and there is nothing you can do to recover it.
My time as a creator, and as a human on this planet, is limited. If there is a workflow that has near zero margin for error and shooting footage in less than optimal conditions produces nothing but unusable pixel mud, I will not use it. It is not worth my time.
And that is in essence what a cine-camera is about. It is meant for people who are time/budget constrained, and who need to be sure that within a readonable margin of error, what footage they get out of their gear can be used in their production and isnt a waste of time and money. The FX30 is a waste of time and money.
@@pyalot Braw isn't real RAW. And the quality of image is trash when you compare it to a real RAW like ProResRAW. 🙃
@@pyalot Im planning on getting the FX30, can you explain why is it a waste of time and money?
@@gaarax0xWithout raw, grading or recovering footage is pretty much impossible. So if you cant use the 50% jpeg gif look out of camera, you are pretty much screwed, making you waste your time taking footage you cant use. Time is money.
This just has me feeling that maybe plain old film isn't too bad anyways
😅 kinda my sentiment as well. Despite how much I love the tech of it
analog will stick around
Wait....its being said the TicoRaw is just based on JPEG-2000...which PRE-DATES RED Code by like a million years. IntoPIX was one of the JPEG-2000 patent developers. So if TicoRaw is "technically" older then RED Code...I think Nikon jas a case. It could be argured that RED Code patent is invalid because JPEG-2000/TicoRaw beat it to the market.
Red knows these smaller cheaper cameras are getting better.
it's simple #RedMustFall
User updatable firmware. Build the camera and firmware with that part missing and then leak it online with it enabled. Wasn't me.
hahaha already been done a couple of times
This reminds me of back in the early days of the car there was a group that at least according to them had the patent of the automobile and that they were the people who decided who had the right to manufacture cars. That worked well for them until they said no to and pissed off a guy with the name Ford -and the rest is history.
Latest Jinni video also adds to this.
ua-cam.com/video/IJ_uo-x7Dc0/v-deo.html
I'll never buy red. Period.
Their mentality suck big time !
Isn't this be akin to patenting the assembly line?
In case you are curious, Graeme, the other inventor named in the patent, is pictured at 11:47. Center of picture wearing a red colored lanyard
Also, Similar to how Zaxcom held the internal record while wirelessly transmitting audio until a few years ago and all these new devices hit the market. People still buy both.
Which side are you on? #TeamNIKON⭐ or #TeamRED⭕ ?
Nikon for sure
Love my Red, love redcode raw… but #teamNIKON all the way! Like you said, it’s just better for the industry.
Nikon for Sure!
Red is a nasty company. People talk about the “prestige” of owning a Red camera, but I think buying from a company whose CEO literally had Arri’s CEO’s emails hacked is buying from real sleaze. There are better cameras to be had from ethical people.
Team JinniTech
Sounds to me it's not really RED's invention, but rather RED's "invention".
Yeahhhh... The whole beginning of RED as a company has a lot of interesting shady stuff going on haha
To solve the problem can’t they make an external device that attaches into the camera does the processing for them in compressed raw codecs by their own devices themselves?
Thanks for making this. Curious if you were the CEO of RED, and had been awarded this patent, and it had been held up multiple times in court, and also had employees, development and RD costs, and shareholders invested in your company...how you would handle this situation? Would you just allow your competitors to use the tech without penalty or any response, even tho the courts have said multiple times your patent is solid? Even if it meant it would hurt your business and your investors?
Well generally patents are rarely ever reversed and generally upheld even if there are issued with them, so I'm not surprised the courts have upheld it. I would say that if I was the CEO and I was still that scared of a fairly generic Compressed RAW format (that others sort of used before they patented it) being let out into the world would potentially harm the company to the point that you might have to lay off employees and hurt your company financially? I think you have larger problems as a company and I'd be looking for a different job. If that's truly what makes RED cameras great, then they have a crisis coming in 2028 and everyone else who has been surviving without internal compressed RAW seems to be in a much better place than you.
But obviously, I'd fight to protect it at this point. But I highly doubt when this patent expires or is overturned that it will cause that much financial hardship to RED. But if it does, it just means they weren't a very stable company to begin with.
Brace yourselves: angry RED fanboys are coming.
I know 😅 I've heard it's getting shared in the red Facebook groups 😂😂😂