Octopus made a boo boo on my account (and seemingly a bunch of others) and offered to fix the 5p/15p rate for another year. I have my suspicions that they actually want customers paying a range of different tariffs on Go so they can understand how elastic the demand is.
I've just had my offer to renew my contract with EDF, in Cornwall UK. They want to increase my day time rate from 22.23 to 55.08 p/kWh, and my night time rate from 17.81 to 43.77 p/kWh. And the standing charge from 35 to 50 p/day. I used 6000 kWh daytime units and 5000 night time units last year.
EVM, in case you were not aware, your video has created quite a surge in enquiries. The supplier I have just placed an order with told me yesterday they have had over 70 calls referring to your video since Friday and likely has been has been repeated across the UK. Well done, you should be proud to make such a difference
Having a house battery makes sense. Prices as we know have gone through the roof, but Octopus recently cut our monthly payment. One thing I do beg to differ on though is the Powerwall VFM. The user experience is very easy and, crucially, the 'Backup' combined with StormWatch feature, makes it a good deal for many of us. We live in a rural area and due to recent storm warnings the Powerwall automatically overode the normal operation and charged fully before the storm hit. A good job too! We suffered a 7-hour powercut and unlike our neighbours we carried on cooking and watching TV, lights on etc. Even made tea for our neighbour. Batteries give more than money savings, they give peace of mind too.
Great analysis and breakdown. I have an EV, Solar and on the same Tariff as yourself. Also what you haven’t mentioned is the replacement of Boilers to ASHP which need electricity to power. We heat the house using our ASHP in the 4 hour period using underfloor heating until 4.30am and then it regulates again at 10am when the solar starts to become effective and then finally goes off at 4pm because UFH keeps the heat in the floor for a few hours after. I am saving for the Battery and hoping to get one before my tariff changes…People need to get savvy so good on you for spreading the knowledge.
How much did a2a pump cost, and what size is your house - 2 storey? I have a 90sqm single storey dwelling, only electric, and have been thinking about a2a.
@@safetyladysilver8988 it was a 16kwh Samsung and the total cost was £12,500. The property is quite large and once renovated will be about 200sqm. Mine was on the RHI scheme which ends in April and i will get 75% of my investment back over 7 years. You would probably be ok wiith an 8 or 12Kwh a2a
@@alancwright is an A2A heat pump just a heat pump based air conditioner or something different? I'm interested in heat pump for heating (have gas heating wet UFH in house), and aircon for summer cooling. Would be ideal if I can use one system for cooling and heating. Thanks
@@Meza201 Hi Meirion, The Samsung A2A is supposed to allow heating and cooling but here in the UK I was told by the heating engineer that it could only be used for Heating due to regulations, although the manual did show it was possible. I too want an AC for the south facing bedrooms and utilise my Solar in the Summer as much as possible so will be investigating further when the time comes to fit an AC.
Big Problem!! Many electricity providers are urgently working on ways to prevent consumers using off-peak power to charge their batteries!! Unless you can rig your own system, most new inverter installations will (soon) not allow you to charge batteries during off-peak hours.
Battery was a great saver for me and the family. Because the solar feed in had dropped, the system is part of a virtual power grid that helps top up other homes as well as mine . But its different here in south Australia. We have had 40 panels for 10 years now and the savings have been incredible. Keep smiling everyone
I’ve had a 19kWh battery pack for almost 2 years now, initially purchased to store solar. We also have an EV now and I’ve gone onto Go Faster (5.5p for 5 hours) and have been charging the batteries overnight and charging the car when needed. I’ve trawled back through my records and done the analysis that you did on the whiteboard - my average electricity rate since going onto Go Faster in Jan has worked out at 6.1p per kWh - so I’m well chuffed. I’m just about to beef up my solar to the max, so 2022 should be an interesting year.
The max is dictated, in the UK, by the DNO (Distribution Network Operator), or local power company - and it’s how much you can export to the grid. So, think when it’s peak summer and your battery is 100% full and the house isn’t consuming any of that - a “worst case” scenario. If you have a 4kW system then you could end up exporting all 4kW - hence you have to have their permission. This is usually obtained by your approved solar installer in advance of the solar PV system being fitted. In my case I now have permission to have this limit increased from 4kW to 7kW. It means that I can now legally increase the size of my system to 7kW. Obviously, the weather at this time of year in the UK isn’t great, so getting it all done in the next few weeks will give me a clear run into 2022. Hope that all makes sense 👍
I have done exactly the same! Tesla Model S and 10kWh of home storage. The 10kWh is more than enough to run my small home all day, so I only charge at the cheap overnight rate (buying less when solar is available). Works fantastically.
I’ve passed the link to this video to my daughter and partner (or whatever you call them these days). They’re part electric, part gas, so this battery size would possibly be ideal. They run an Ioniq 28 and are looking to add solar at some point. We installed solar and Powerwall 3 years ago. Ripped out the oil boiler and heating plumbing and installed electric heating and Mixergy tank…Vailant etc wouldn’t install heat pump due to age and efficiency of house. Payback for the 5.7kw array and Powerwall was initially a 15/16 years. Electric was too expensive for heating by electric for the first two winters. However, the Octopus/Tesla tariff came along, and as we run a SR+ we qualified for the £0.08 kWh import, and £0.08 kWh export with no standing charges. We had the heating on for the first time during the recent winter months…with no need to use the wood burner (except for visual display at Christmas). Prior to this, the burner was flat out. One of the real satisfactions of the Octopus/Tesla tariff is that the homes hooked to it make use of the auto bidder software and act as reliable mini power/peaker plants. It’s early days at the moment regarding uptake, but we recently received an email from Tesla say that over the past 3 months we’d contributed to the production of 830,000kWh (enough to power 286 homes for a year). Imagine what several million households could pump to the grid on this tariff/scheme. It’s quite something to see the battery empty kWhs to the grid during high demand periods. This solution, along with the growth of renewable energy production, could potentially result in the costs of electricity dropping. Although the Govt have all but obstructed the growth of community energy production (wind and solar), there’s what you might describe as a shit ton of roof space for solar on homes, factories, warehouses etc. We could conceivably create an over-production of energy, which in tandem with battery storage could even provide free/low cost electric for people going through hard times. But, as you say, if there aren’t funds for personal solar, a battery does make very good sense. (There’s a ten or so year guarantee on the Powerwall, which I presume is the same for yours? Hopefully the Oct/Tesla tariff won’t go up, or too much, next year, meaning that the Powerwall pays itself off in a few years).
@@scottlittlewood4527 Ah ha! That’s good to know. And partners, they’re still called partners right? So, regarding solar/batteries etc, are they still a waste of money, with short working life and no chance of paying themselves back, or is that something that has changed?
I don't know about partners, that's complicated, you could be accused of all sorts if you get that bit wrong. As for batteries, my dilemma is should I pay Western Power £5k to connect my new 2 bedroom house to the grid, or buy batteries? I live alone, I'm out all day, my roof is hipped, but I have a garden and parking space adjoined. My feeling deep down, is that batteries need to be a bit cheaper in the UK and an obvious choice of manufacturer needs to emerge.
@@scottlittlewood4527 Haha. I believe obvious providers are already here, and worth the punt despite being unnervingly expensive at first glance. Maybe don’t wait too long.
I just had our system fitted and commissioned this last week. 12 panels on the roof and a Powerwall and gateway in the garage! Tariff and meter not changed yet and it’s only late February but we’re mostly self sufficient already. Best I’ve had is 3.1kv on a sunny day but I’ve had the battery full several times and even when the next day was dull the battery ran the house until mid afternoon! With electric set to rise even if I don’t sell spare back we will have a dramatic fall in running costs! ASHP will come after new windows and radiators though.
When sizing battery capacity it is important to know peak charge rate, as there is only a 4 hour window to charge in. So a 8kwh battery must charge at a consistent 2kw rate. This will limit the maximum achievable payback as it limits the maximum battery size. You also need to be mindful of household load, the battery inverter may not for example fully follow a +3kw peak from cooking an evening meal but will happily follow a 500w consistent daytime load. Households that avoid very peaky loads will be able to make the most of the stored energy, in a similar way to making best use of solar panels. The battery must also have the capability to follow load so that it does not export.
I believe the Tesla Powerwall battery charges from empty to full in about 3 hours and 20 minutes. Trouble is with this battery is you can't go over 5kwh at anyone time with it. If you are using more than 5kwh at anyone time you draw power from the grid. I believe this was the case, not sure if it has changed since. Battery is good if there is a power cut(assuming you got the gateway installed next to the battery).
Whilst the situation here in Sydney Australia is very different, (the off peak rate with our company is only available for hot water) our sunny climate makes the photovoltaic cells much more attractive. Many homes now are fitted with P/V cells so we reverse the situation where we generate power in the day and need power once the big ball of nuclear fusion sinks below the horizon. Batteries seem a bit dearer here but there is a possibility of obtaining a used battery pack from an EV which usually is replaced when down to
An 8.2kwh battery can surely only save you 8.2kwh of full price electricity per day, maximum. So compared with a 35p tariff you will save 30p x 8.2 x 365 which is £898. Any other savings can be achieved regardless whether you have a battery or not. Furthermore, if your day time rate is higher than normal rates due to the tariff you should factor in the difference.
Was the video not also assuming another 1.8kwh switched into the cheap rate by timing dishwashers etc? I agree though it's a very movable feast and too predicated on assumed cheap OP rates.
I'm in Brisbane, Queensland, so fairly sunny place. We installed 14.5kw of panels and full battery system two years ago. It cost AU $31,500 (about GBP16,000). It pays all our electricity bills and we export about $2500 of power to the grid each year, or over 20% annual return on the investment. It will pay itself off in 5yrs, then we're in clover for the rest of the system's lifetime, guaranteed 12yrs for the Sonnen batteries and 25yrs for the Chinese panels. We hardly use the gas cooker and use an electric induction cook top. It's 36C outside today, 80% humidity and 25C inside with no sweating. Solar A/C. Love it.
house batteries are one of those fundamental technologies that appears to have gone under the radar a little. But they are key, the best place to start with the green transition. a short payback, not too disruptive to install generally, and plug and play. there are so many positives with them. Many thanks for highlighting the benefits.
WOW I'm blown away by the saving that could be made right now, I was looking at going for solar panels and batteries system, but the just battery system looks a no brainer option that I will need to look at. Thanks for that.
A thing to think about: with electrification of heat and hot water coming within the next ten years, the battery savings are nearly *essential* because the gas option will start to go and get more and more expensive. A battery now should make it more affordable to move later and decarbonise.
The UA-cam algorithm has its benefits... I was glad to see this, a useful breakdown, thank you. I'm in the process of installing a modest battery system now but balancing solar charge with day time charging & consumption, best outcome at the moment as most electricity providers have withdrawn new customer access to EV tariffs recently. Seeing that my basic arithmetic is backed up by yours, albeit skewed by the different power balance/ savings I'm encouraged to get on with the job. I'll jump to an EV tariff as soon as they become available again.
Same 8.2kw battery here too plus solar. I charge the Model 3 overnight on the Go Faster rate and use solar to top up the battery in the day ( boosted in the 5.5p rate at night if needed) I also have a heat pump for house heating. So far this year not emptied the battery in the day so not been on peak rates. I am getting a similar costing to yourself, ranging from 67p to around £1 a day excluding car charging. Mine was commissioned at the beginning of October so the timing was perfect, I had no idea of the rate increases coming when I ordered the system. Sure glad I got it now
Worth noting a couple of points I have found with a non hybrid GiveEnergy invertor and a 16.8 kWh battery system (AC coupled system to the consumer unit with an existing solar system); - There is a delay between the software switching between call to grid power and switching over to battery. You will see some grid usage even with a full battery available, although not massive - The maximum AC coupled inverter is (or was 6 months ago) rated in the region of 3.6kWh, so at night when there is no solar, any call for more than 3.6kWh from the house will also draw from the grid, so you still need to be selective with using multiple high load devices. Also, I had previously been using a powerdiverter to heat the hot water with surplus solar generation, however I have no replaced this with a timed switch on the immersion as the 5p per kWh on Octopus Go I was finding little excess solar generation was available to heat the water after the batteries were charged, so replaced this with a timer to benefit from the 5p per kWh which works out cheaper than using Oil. I would add my current electricity bill is around £25 a month, and that includes EV charging which is almost only done at home.
Some good and bad things you haven't considered:- you get fewer KW-Hrs out of your battery than you put in. Electricity prices will increase but battery systems might become cheaper. Savings are after tax, bank interest is taxable. Interest rates are set to rise, this could affect the cost of an installation if you borrow money to finance it. You still get power during power cuts.
Just an additional piece of information for people to consider, Octopus changed the T&Cs of their go tariff, so now Go is only available for EV drivers.
I switched to Go 6 weeks ago and wasn't asked whether I had an EV or not, and just got in before the recent price increases. If anybody from Octopus is listening I do have an EV😁
Their T&C do now say that you need to have an EV. I think it says that if they find out you don't they can move you off the tariff. I'm about to push the button on a home battery and I'm swapping my second I'VE car for a cheap Nissan Leaf..
for the people to whom is not able to get access to the Go Tariff, what tariff would you go for, cos looking around all the other tariffs are up in the 20p mark. for both day and night
I've just installed a secondhand ME3000SP with an old set of lead acid batteries. The batteries are near end-of-life (10 years old but designed for at least 12) and spent a good chunk of that time as a telephone switch battery pack. It'll be interesting to see how long the batteries last, but it's a 16kWh pack (48V 320Ah) so I expect it'll be a little while before they finally start to struggle. Oh, and the pack was free because I was the one scrapping the phone switch :) If you've got solar then you could consider battery storage a "payback accelerator". Yes, it'll cost more, but it'll do its damnedest to stop the electricity meter moving, which solar alone won't do.
I have a moixa 4.8kw system married to a 2 KW solar panel system. I have found the battery is much more useful than the solar system. Im also on octopus go and charge my battery on the off peak electric. With the solar panels supplementing the battery during the day I can and do regularly get through to the late evening without using the higher tariff. 3 bed house with a family of 4. Had this setup for 3 years now, had some teething problems at first but moxia were pretty good at fixing it. Overall the battery is a better option than solar panels so I agree with evman. I also managed to get paid for the energy the solar panels make for the next 20 years.
The battery viability part may not be so viable when you take in to account the limited battery warranty, the panels are fine as they have long warranties.
I run a block of flats and they had storage radiators installed 25 years ago. They automatically come on about 1am to 7am on a separate live circuit on the mains. People have criticised them as old fashioned and inefficient over the years. I like them as they're easy to maintain, don't leak and give good background heating as they are on all the time. I find them reasonablly good provided you have cavity wall installation and double glazing, which we have. So Smug mode engaged!
Thanks for this - perfect timing! No immediate plans to install solar, but been kicking the idea of a battery around for a while. Wasn't sure whether it would make sense 👍
I fitted a Tesla Battery and have had this for past year. I love the fact that it can fill up at the cheap rate on my Economy 7 and use during the day. My house seems to use around 23 kWh per day, but my savings are around £100 per month. I did also add an extra 4kWh solar, but for me the 13.5 Tesla battery has made a huge difference to my bills. I also agree that with electricity costs rising , the battery will keep saving money and last for many years. Tesla warranty indicates it should remain above 80% in 10 years time! I also believe there is a cost in amount of kWh used to convert AC to DC and back again, so this may increase the number of kWh used by the home.
This kind of thing is why I chose a High Heat Retention storage heater (Dimplex Quantum 150) for my one bed house, as well as replacing the electric shower with one fed from the hot water tank. The heater stores up to about 12kWh of heat from the 4 hours of 5p/kWh, which is keeping my house nice and warm at a really cheap rate.
I'm 56 and when i was a kid we heated our house with three storage heaters. We couldn't wait for the council to install central heating. How ironic that we are being pushed back towards storage heaters of various kinds. All i need now is metal framed single glazed windows with ice on the inside and i'll be ten years old again!
I got exactly the same system having watched your earlier videos. I’ve never looked back saved some real money. Only difference is I’m on “ agile” which I am reconsidering at the moment as I’ve only had one day of being paid to charge
@@AegisK very few at the moment as I’ve only had the battery system about 6 months but I’ve had solar for 6 years. I run the house using solar mostly so it costs nothing and they also charge the battery up for night time use. Now winter is approaching I suspect I’ll start paying but I look for the cheapest time to charge, for example I got 2 hours yesterday free and a couple at 4p and 5p but since the energy problems there have been regular 35p hours most of the day even at night. I’m watching closely to decide if I change to go or not
@@AL-ib3lu that would depend on solar energy production or drawing from the mains, if it was purely mains I think it would take about 5 hours but I couldn’t be positive on that. I’m not technically minded I’m afraid
We have 10.4 kW of Givenergy batteries along with solar. I’ve been on Octopus Go since December and over 81% of our imported electricity has been at 5p, making the average unit price 6.6p. So the batteries have certainly been a massive advantage. If you factor in the payment receive for exports the import unit price comes down to 2.5p! And if you include solar to battery/home, we paid 1.3p for each unit we consumed. Obviously there is the standing charge to include and the installation cost! But at this rate the repayment period will be shorter than anticipated.
@@captainkangaroo8309 Yes, Go for imports, I export to a different company. You don’t need to use the same company for import and exports, which means you can shop around for the best rates for each. Some will pay 5p for exports, so during the winter I set the battery to fully charge on cheap rate and then if we generate enough solar to export it balances off the import costs.
Hi, we're just looking at getting a battery too (already have solar (9+yrs) a Solar iBoost+ and an ev) can i ask why you went for a 10.4Kw battery, i'm assuming its 2x5.2kw units.? to me it makes sense to do it once so buy bigger than what you need 'now' not wish you'd bought bigger 2yrs down the line.
Hi @@nicksportster8711 to be honest the battery size was the recommendation of our installer, it is roughly what we use in the house per day excluding EV charging. Yes it’s 2 x 5.2 kWh. On an intense cooking or washing day when the sun isn’t shining the batteries do run out, so we would need more storage to fully avoid peak rates. If I was to get more I’d have them on a separate inverter to allow for a greater combined discharge rate, which would help cover those times when multiple appliances are on at the same time and we end up imparting. But you there is a balance to be struct between installation costs and ongoing… Possibly worth looking at solution that can be expanded in the future based on need and if battery cost reduce as the technology develops.
Price aside, knowing that my power is entirely coming from the sun makes me feel pretty good. We have 31 panels on the roof and two Tesla batteries. We have two EVs and the only time we might draw from the grid is when we use the aircon, and even then we rarely deplete the batteries. Most of the time we send more than half of our solar generation (and as much as 90 percent) back to the grid. This means people in Los Angeles (that's where I live) are benefitting from our solar power generation.
Awesome stuff. I have a 6.2kw system in Ohio, and a Tesla, and wife has a Bolt. It's a good thing Tesla is building a megafactory to make megapacks, cause it seems the UK needs them too.
I had 14 panels. Then added 12 more. So 26 panels attached to a 3.7 and 2.5kW inverter. Got the Alpha ESS battery storage capable of storing 8.7kWh usable. Enough to get me through the night in summer. And, charge during the night on the Octopus 5p tariff. Also got the Model 3 SR+. The solar does my hot water 9 months of the year. Have gas backup for the rest of the time.
You still have some type of standing charge / carbon tax to factor in. Also in Ireland we are charged MORE for night/day tariff (€50 per year extra) which reduces cost savings a bit. Our taxes are about €1 per day before ANY usage. Still, it makes sense to have a battery. Interesting your usage is about the same as mine (2 adult household). I've a slightly smaller GivEnergy Battery 6 kWh in about 2 years with PV. You have to be clever in setting the overnight charge up rate in case you get a very sunny day the next day as PV is free and I hate having a full battery heading into a sunny day!
4.58 years that's less than 5 years very insightful. Now serious response , good video I previously thought the battery wouldn't pay for itself , although pretty sure battery prices have come down recently, they weren't that cheap last time I checked but that was a few years back
This is interesting, even if the cost of battery storage and installation increases the saving over time is virtually guaranteed. I have one nagging doubt. Batteries deteriorate over time, ask any Tesla owner. What is the cost of upgrading / replacing just the battery component of the system and how long will the battery last at let's say 70%+ capacity?
Can't see the 5p rate lasting, have you seen how much standing charge is , why should we pay to have meter in house.... Per day... Its a bit of kit they need as well, can we charge energy companies rent for the space their meter takes up in our homes...??? The candles are out.... Light and heating all in one little stick
Just a thought, but as energy providers get more Solar, Wind and Battery system’s installed, won’t energy prices stabilise and perhaps reduce? After all, they won’t have to pay for Coal, Gas or other combustibles🤔 It’s now cheaper to install renewable system’s than to run a coal powered plant🤯
So I’ve only watched 30 seconds so far and already it’s what I’ve been harping on about to my architect (I’m and electrician and he refers work to me) for months now. Solar…yes, but batteries coupled with the right tariff…ok, I’ll carry on watching now.
The difference between peak and off peak is what matters when doing the battery only payback calculation. Can't help thinking the differential is going to shrink as off peak demand rises due to EV charging and Home Battery charging usage. I believe capturing alternative energy (solar, wind) should be the main driver when evaluating the investment. Another benefit of the Home Battery is to keep other home usage supported during power outages. e.g. Home heating, entertainment, modems etc.
Very well presented video thank you. I am really pleased that we can chat about this as well. Now before I continue my advise from exsperiance is Do not fit battery in loft space unless you have the area where the battery is kept is very well ventilated as it gets really hot in a loft and your equipment will fail at some point. The other important factor is to make sure you have at least a minimum of 6 years warranty on a battery and controller if it needs one. Again my exsperiance I have had 3 battery failures under warranty and if you read the small print you will find that they will supt you with a recon unit, which in most cases is not good as I said 3 failures. I am now not in warranty so when this fails again the question is would I buy another at £3k.for me no. I would prefer to purchase extra solar surface area for winter use or buy 48 v forklift lead acid battery's which have more grunt and cheaper. Only thing is you need more space. Now calculations which are always fantastic on paper but when put to practice not always correct. It's really all about payback time £4k. A lot of money to save money and switching between tariffs very difficult with the hike in the market now. I run a bungalow most of it now runs on electric so as a working class man with zero disposible income I will always be looking at my electric bill. My ev needs say 7.5 hours to fully charge say when it's at 26%. So for me I had to go to economy 7 it suited us at that time. The way I save is doing everything like ev charging, dish washer washing machine, bread making, pressure cooking all is done on economy 7. My 2 big drain are american fridge freezer and small chest freezer in garage but I have to live with this. I spent £13k on an 8 kw Solar with 5 kw battery, pay back was 12 years, I am 6 year into it now. Warrant now gone on battery. I have had an inverter failure which was changed under warranty a recon issued and its taken months to have it replaced a the same with the battery's it took months to get replaced and it was all in good summer months. My fit payment is 00.049p not a lot but it helps. My return roughly is £480per year my usage even with solar and battery per month is average £78. The best thing about solar is the summer months I can run my ev for free but from this month till say April next year my 5kw battery may only get to 26% charge due to poor light. So its switched off over this period as I want to use it for home. If I had a field I would put 30kw of solar pannels to charge 8 48v forklift battery's this would run my home over winter excluding ev. I love battery tech but to spend £4k pus on a battery system based on it charging on 4 hours cheap rate is a great way but the energy company's don't really want to give to much away so most people fall for special tariffs which intise ev owners but day rates go up a lot and standing charge also. The goverment should give a grant to have battery's at least 50% off to make it cost effective for all, they should cap electricity prices. LCT is good when a goverment needs to step in and help more. Everyone buys evs at the moment mostly people with a few Bob or two, but the average home has more than one car, most homes could not run a second or third ev charger, all homes will require 3 phase but that's another chat another day.
You must have picked a poor battery manufacturer. This has a 10 year warranty, 15-20 year lifetime. When your EV says 7.5 hours, that’s to 100%. It’ll be 6 hours to get to 95%.
@@ElectricVehicleMan at the time Growatt seemed a good choice. But it's like I suppose insurance, how can you tell how good they are until you need to use them.
We have 5Kw of battery with our solar system. Right now we top up at night and run the house in the morning for pennies……cost a lot especially with no government grants available but we feel the payback is better than the interest we get in money in the bank. Just wish we could have afforded 10kw of storage but there you go !
Thank you for your information, I maybe one of the lucky ones as I have had solar panels fitted for free and have just been on a trial of a battery system also fitted free. And I have already seen the benefits of the two systems. I will now do my washing over the night time . Colin from London
Thanks for a very helpful video. I’m about to get a 16.5 kw Sonnen battery fitted so this is fascinating. I use around 8000 kws per year. About 60% of this is used at night. I’m now paying 28p per kilowatt. I don’t have an electric car but have an air source heat pump and solar panels. The latter generates about 4200 kws per year. I think I’ll save about £2000 per year using your sums. Thanks again.
Here in the south of England I have 32 PV panels rated at 9.2KW + and GivEnergy 8.2KW battery. Looking to add another 8.2KW battery soon to capture more of the electricity we produce and to top up the batteries off peak during the dark months. One full EV and one PHEV to keep charged. Certainly agree with your figures.
I was looking at getting 2 x powerwalls to complement my solar but these givenergy units along with the control system look like a better bet. Also considering a SunAmp heat battery to replace my boiler!
@@MikeGleesonazelectrics Yes you have to ask permission of the DNO but if your system can handle it, you have room and it fits in with the existing grid framework, then you can add more.
Thanks for that info…I have never thought about just getting a battery system without being alongside Solar Panels…food for thought…many thanks well presented…cheers…Brian.
Thanks for this! We’re just buying a house and this was a major consideration for me but it was so confusing where to even start or if it was worth it. 🤞🏻 they never get rid of the 5p rate (or similar)! Thank you!
There will always be some periods of time when electricity is cheaper. Theoretically smart control systems could be set to buy when price is low - whenever that may be
OK this works and indeed I’ve been doing this in my case with a Tesla Powerwall. However the assumption on the price trend is I believe wrong. The price is currently high because of the price of gas which is used for a disturbing amount of electricity generation. This has driven the price of electricity up. However huge amounts of wind generation is planned for the North Sea and I read that is the cheapest way of generation once installed - so day rates may well reduce. Solar is cheaper too. I see Gridserve are keeping their rates low as their power is solar. On the other side there are about to be many more EVs and green hydrogen is likely to be consuming power overnight so the low night rate will be under pressure.. To view it another way if each household used an EV and travelled say 40 miles a day the example household would be needing as much power at night as during the day. Of course factories won’t be demanding much during the night but then Solar does not happen at night so supply is down.. So the low price at night may just be a transition thing and when gas is out of the generation game prices in the day may well drop.
Unfortunately it seems to be impossible to find a night rate tariff right now. I have a smart meter which can send readings every half hour so it should be capable, but even when I search for economy 7 tariffs, the night rates now just match the day rates, and it could get worse in April when the price cap expires. Paying the full price cap here, all electric heating and hot water, no energy storage. A system like this would make perfect sense IF I could actually get a night rate.
What's the efficiency and life expectation on the battery bank? If the payback is 10yrs and the battery needs replacing at 10yrs also the saving would be drastically reduced.
Yeah they don't like to talk about that and we're not supposed to ask. You know as well as I do that ALL batteries start to deteriorate very quickly. I've been looking into these batteries and the life expectancy is between 5 and 15 years so worst case scenario you will have to replace it half way through paying for it and that's not taking into account how much performance will be lost before you have to replace it? The people who champion these things never want to address the negatives, like the electric cars, I know someone who bought an electric golf and when he first got it a full charge would give 130 miles, now, with less than 20 thousand miles on it he's lucky to get 70 miles but of course whenever you try to point that out to anyone they say "there must be something wrong with it"! Yeah there is, it's an electric car.
I would add a caveat to your otherwise excellent video. I bought a Varta battery with a max current rating of 2.4kW. This means that if I switch on the 3kW kettle I am drawing 2.4kW from the battery and 0.6kW from the distribution network. If I switch on the kettle. the drier and the washing machine all at the same time then I would be drawing about 7kW from the network. This limitation considerably complicates the calculation of the pay back period. It looked like you have 2 batteries, maybe both are 7kW max output on seperate 32 amp circuits giving you an availabity of 14kW total. So you could handle 14kW max demand, having spent more money on installation costs?? At set up like this would probably cost more like £10k. Anyway, it is important to relate your expected maximum demand to the maximum output from the battery in any calculations of cost and efficiency.
I have had to get the new octopus go rate where the night rate is 18.5p would be wonderful if it stayed at 5p. The 4 hour slot used to cost about £1.10 now costs about £6.00 to charge the car. Think you need to reassess your numbers to reflect the current costs. I have same battery backup system very good. Would be nice to see figures for the current octopus rates.
I have a horrible feeling these "time of day" tariffs will be abolished when batteries are widely available, as the "peak time" will no longer be a thing, or rather the peak time will become the night time, especially with more solar panels generating it during the day at home, and EVs being charged overnight. Probably a few years off yet, but I do see this happening
Great video thanks. I guess given the size of electric car batteries it would be great to charge the car on low cost overnight electricity and then power the house from the car during the day. Any plans to look at this and do a video? Im fortunate that myself and wife both have EVs and largely work from home so it would be an ideal option avoiding the cost of buying a battery and using what we have already. Many thanks. G
Great video, I have solars, previously fitted, and recently Tesla Powerwall, Broadly agree with your maths and thinking, plus the benefit of blackout system, only house in street at storm Arwen!! Thanks keep em coming....
Thanks Andy. I went to Octopus (used your referral link) got a smart meter a few days ago and have a giv energy 16kw system due for fitting on 8 Nov. I thought the added capacity may have been over the top a bit at the time of ordering, but not now. I have solar, ev, 3 bedroom semi-detached. The way things are working out the battery is a no brainer. I decided battery costs were unlikely to come down much. The wholesale price reductions during the pandemic were not passed onto consumers. I've had to wait months for my battery and demand is such that Prices will not be likely to drop anytime soon.
If you don't mind me asking, how much was the 16kw battery system of your fitted and who did you use. Secondly, would a system that size charge in a 4 hour cheap tarrif window ? many thanks
Been thinking a lot about the finances of this, I’m concerned that it relies on a large differential between hi and low rates that I believe will erode as a night consumption increase with electric car and battery wall take up..
The guy who did my solar panel install said this (So take it with a pinch of salt) The way he predicts electric going is that if most houses have battery storage and solar in future then the off peak period will become cheaper/potentially free, meaning they can free up electricity for industry during the day which can be sold at a higher price to offset domestic consumption. Be nice if it happens
That’s interesting, looking forward to 2030 or whenever all new cars are EVs, there will be a lot of energy used in the 4 hour off peak. Then again, different suppliers can use different times and surely there will always be a domestic off peak of some sort, as you say to free up power for industry. Keep an eye on China next year, they’re already imposing blackouts, next year they’ll be for many hours a day - we need to prepare our grid for the future with kit like this
The key question which no one seems to be asking is..... what is the life span of the home battery itself. I know from years in IT the batteries in Uninteruptable Power Supplies for example do not last that long, maybe 5 years. So if your batteries fail in say year 6 and you have to repalce the battery packs, you are saving very little indeed. You are banking on the lifespan of the batteries being 10 years, So say it costs you 5k, and you save 1k per year in electric and you get 10 years, so by year 5 you have recouped your original 5k investment and by year 10 you have saved another 5k which is just enough to replace your batteries. That is providing you put your savings to one side to be able to afford the outlay of new batteries.
Key question that no one’s asking? It’s been asked about a thousand times in this comments section.. 20+ year lifespan (batteries in UPSs are nothing like these.
@@ElectricVehicleMan couldnt be arsed to read 3000 comments. Battery technology hasnt suddenly changed, your cars own battery will fail in 10 years, your phone battery will fail in less time depending on its charging cycles, UPS batteries are there to deliver 240v and enough power to keep devices or areas running in the event of power failure yet they dont last and after 5 years or so you get that dreaded replace battery error code. even Electric car batteries fail after a period of time, depending on use, which is why you have to lease the batteries. So what 'magic' battery technology are house batteries using that means with daily use and daily charging they last so much longer than any other battery technology we currently have ?
Proper management of lithium batteries reduces efficiency loss and degradation to very low levels. Keeping the batteries cycling between (say) 30 and 70% or thereabouts gives an excellent life and very little degradation in efficiency. What kills lithium cells is deep discharge, which is why older laptops and phones were so prone to killing batteries - they'd discharge to almost zero before switching off. similarly, charging to 100% also causes degradaton My current laptop has a battery management controller that I has set at a maintenance level of 50% for desktop use and limits discharge to 20% and charge to 90%. It's 5 years old and the batteries test out at 95% of rated capacity.
December i was using 12kw per day on average. That's 1 person in a 4 bed dormer bungalow with a heat pump. My energy provider went bust and i was shifted to British gas at 21p per kw.
Excellent presentation simple yet effective! Makes you think however I’m thinking that you have to have an EV as companies are starting to check that you have and EV to get the Go tariff etc. many thanks for the spade work, much appreciated.
I nearly fell off my chair when you said 12kwh daily usage. I live in Sweden, no gas, all electric with a heat pump to supply hot water and heat. My lowest ever daily usage was 21kwh in June. Now in Oct it is 36kwh on a warm day, and up to 82kwh on a cold day when I charge the car (30kwh Leaf) as well. I winter can go up to 120 kwh/day. I pay and sell (11Kw solar panels) electricity by the hour at the wholesale rate (plus a bit for the supplier) . Need a lot of battery to cover day to night, and not worth it at present due to the way tax is applies to our export solar. (I get about 5p from the taxman for every Kwh I export).
our government is trying to push us onto heat pumps and such by raising the gas prices to get us to move to fully electric and guess what will happen the electric prices will magically shoot up also just like forcing petrol prices up to force everyone to get an electric car
Didn't someone blow up their Tesla car with dynamite because of how much it was going to cost to replace battery out of warranty. I think it was in the region of 20k if I remember. I'm in no rush to buy into electric that's for sure
I have two questions for you. 1, what is the extra cost for the dual tariff and what is the life of the battery and inverter? I think these must both be factored in the cost savings and payback.
No idea on life of givnergy, however I have a Tesla Powerwall 2 and Solar Edge inverter. The inverter has an expected life of 20 yrs+. The Tesla battery is guaranteed to have 80% capacity after 10yrs and is predicted to past at least 20yrs. To be fair the rate tech is moving, you may want to upgrade the system before then anyway, who knows
Don't forget that batteries need to be replaced every 8 to 10 years! (Unless you rarely use them) Yes, in 10 years they will be cheaper.. As a solar installer, my experience is that payback time is about 80% of the life of the batteries - very little savings! The best reason for a battery is food protection during blackouts (which are going to increase dramatically!)
@@ElectricVehicleMan 20 years is a fantasy! My very expensive battery is noticeably down on capacity after just 5 years. I asked about a Powerwall, two installers said I would not get more than 10 years out of them.
@@lisakelly984 How do you explain the warranty being 10 years? (End of warranty, like a car, doesn’t mean end of life!) The 20+ figure is coming from GivEnergy themselves. You’ve either got cheap batteries or there’s something wrong. 5 years clearly is the fantasy purely because of the warranty. Which the Powerwall also shares. Maybe use a different installer next time?
While I would debate whether the price of electricity will ever go down (because solar and wind are already dirt cheap and can literally only ever get cheaper to produce) it is abundantly clear that home batteries make economic sense for those who can afford it and political sense in terms of reinforcing the grid and helping nations with energy independence from tinpot regimes like Russia.
This is what I have been thinking for a long time and one of my idea is to drive my 2015 24KW leaf for some time and keep the battery for home purpose and get rid of the car. I am on 5.5p for 5 hours and it makes tones of sense having a home battery.
Ordered givenergy battery with 3.6kw solar two weeks ago for this very reason: the numbers work now and are likely to be covered in a 5 year payback as my heating/hot water is ashp. The use of LFP battery cells and UPS feature are underrated aspects of givenergy.
@@rossbrown9967 7k and like you was expensive at first, but got some more rads installed, lowered the output temp, changed the sterilisation to nightrate and insulated a bit better. Still expensive, but this house doesn't have any gas, so anything else is expensive!
@@rossbrown9967 £180 and September was a warm month. I can offer a recommendation, try to heat the ASHP to charge your heating system durning the day when temps are above 5, after temps drop below this COP drops like a stone. Could you say how you are using the ASHP.
As far as i can tell you must have an EV to get these tariffs, i really to do the maths as im not sure it would be cost effective for myself, we are a family of 5 with no gas, my background usage is around 12kW a day, let alone cooking, heating (i haven'teven included this in my consideration as my heatpump is using some power at present), washing etc. I think the EV will help offset some of the cost as long as i don't have to drive long distances everyday as 4 hours will not charge the car. I also have givenergy 8.2kW battery, i think to make this work for me I'd need another battery and i just don't know the saving is there.
It all comes down to the price differential. I think with the increase in EV's 5p/kWh won't last, however, there will still likely be variable rates just at variable times each day. Key thing will be the battery talking to the supplier and knowing when those times are each day. Is yours wired to still power your home during a power cut - that would be an added bonus.
I totally agree. EVM's premise is only sustainable if this differential exists in the future. My guess is that by 2/3 years that differential will be massively reduced and his payback period is going to be the life of the battery.
@@edc1569 you realise Hinckley C is about to open. We haven't burnt much coal in the last 10 years. By charging an ev at night your taking pressure of the base load to the grid can stay at 50hrz.
@@edc1569 Simply not true. Cheap overnight electricity exists, because factories are closed and people in bed. Most nuclear was off during the pandemic and cheap power still existed. Turbines often generate lots at night.
@@AgileMcGuire but we’re meant to be weaning ourselves off of the old generation model towards more renewables, my comment relates to the future where generation availability is going to be much more important. Of course on average overnight energy will be cheaper, but not 5, or 6 times cheaper!
I have exactly that Give Energy system and I agree with your numbers. I had to wait 4 months to get the battery as it was on back order but the other kit was installed with the solar in July The pay back time is one thing but I look at it as the rate of return I was getting on the cash v the savings I get from the panels & battery - ten times greater at least. Of course it all depends on the cheap night rate - if that goes then it all falls apart financially! I charge the home battery and EV up at night in the winter so after 4.40 the battery starts to supply the house and then the solar kicks in to first supply the house and then charge the battery. Late evening the battery has gone and I import a couple of hours at full rate, more if has been a really dull day. In the summer I will use the solar to charge the car during the day although I need to heat a swimming pool so that can use all of the solar (Throttled to 6kW) I don't have any fancy load management stuff because I'm not sure if it would pay back ? Any tips for what makes sense would be appreciated? GiveEnergy said they are going to have something that will send any spare solar to the EV rather than the grid but how that would wake up the car I'm not sure? I admit that I love looking at my data and graphs on the GiveEnergy site but my obsession with minimising export will no doubt pass! (I also got a SolarEdge Inverter to optimise the panels and the app also gives loads of interesting data! )
@@danielwake7621 No idea but they have put it in there now for new customers. Check out 'The EV puzzle' channel and he highlighted it in a recent video
Only just caught your video on recommended and I'm glad I did. As you very well know prices have gone up my night rate is going to be 15.530 and day 78.240 then 35.530 after first kW used. But I've been looking into the portable batteries as I'm in housing association property and your video is going to be most useful. And is now telling me I should definitely consider buying them.
I bought a 5kWp solar array and battery with about 4.8kWh useable capacity in May 2019. I missed out on the good FIT rates but I did get in before VAT went from 5 to 20%. In July and August my energy bill, including gas for hot water, is zero or negative because the battery is topped up off cheap rate electricity before 04:30 and runs the house before sunrise, then the battery is charged by mid morning, solar power heats the water and then exported electricity pays for the standing order and offsets the off-peak usage, the battery then runs the house until about 23:00. Apart from the period from mid november to mid feb when insolation is quite poor, my electricity bill is much reduced. I will get an additional battery pack at some point but shortages means prices are high at the moment. The opportunity cost of investing some of my savings in solar/battery was fairly low as interest rates are poor, but the break-even on the solar is accelerating as electricity costs rise, so I anticipate it being a good investment even the battery is only guaranteed for 10 years worth of daily cycling. I also think that if you can afford it even if he payback is marginal, then you are doing the planet a favour by cutting co2 emissions.
I did these numbers beginning of May, and I was looking for the optimum battery size, I found for my household, it was a 5kWh battery. This assumed zero export opportunities which is true for Octopus go. Any battery bigger than this yielded very marginal increases in savings. However, what I found was that when I changed the equation from Go to Agile tariff, bigger batteries could essentially be used to supply your household needs, and any charge left over could be exported at the expensive part of the day. As a result, the marginal value of having a bigger battery was much better (assuming minor battery degradation - LFP batteries would be suited for this, but NMC batteries wouldn’t).
With smaller batteries look very carefully at how much power they can supply, a smaller battery, generally, cannot fully support your use of high power appliances leading to use of grid power at expensive times of day.
@@edwyncorteen1527 yes, and also bigger batteries are better for blackout conditions. That’s not a regular feature right now, but blackouts cost in terms of lost income, spoiled food etc…so the value of a bigger battery can often be justified in terms of such avoided losses.
What is the calcylation look like when you calcylate the size on the battery?? I plann in like two years probably install solar with battery. I use like 120 kwh a day in winter and 40 in summer in average.
Great video. But Octopus Go now seems to be enforcing the requirement to have an EV to be on the tariff. Are you aware of any other suppliers with similar tariffs that don't require an EV?
Hi Pablo I work in the solar industry supplying and installing panels myself, I would say pretty much every single customer of mine are putting themselves on octopus go and just yesterday one of them did sign up with go
If you have solar and a Tesla battery installed, you can go on Octopus Tesla tariff which currently is 11p per kW any time of day to buy or sell back to the grid. Yes the outlay is going to be much more expensive than this example, however the cost savings could be huge if energy prices carry on going up.
My guess would be 3000 cycles to 80% capacity, 6000 cycles to 50%. So after about 8 years your battery will no longer store 8kwh but closer to 6.4 kwh. By 16 years it'll store about 4kwh. I have not seen the specs of the batteries, this is just a guess based on general lifespan of lithium batteries.
@@markdee3506 I was always under the impression that lithium batteries could only be charged approximately 1000 times which means that after 3 years the batteries would be in pretty poor condition. Maybe EV batteries are much better than these batteries but it's essential to know before considering a purchase. Some EV batteries come with a warranty which I would expect this system would need also. I am interested in this idea but I'm unsure it's going to pay.
@@mikemorley2797 1000 cycles is closer to what a cellphone battery gets (not designed to last long), and it is still usable after 1000 cycles, just with reduced capacity. For example Pylontech warranty their battery's for 7 extended to 10 years, >6000 cycles and no less than 60% capacity remaining. So it would be usable for at least 16 years.. If you can pay it off in 5 years then you are making money for 10 years before they need replacing. I haven't researched all in one charger/inverter batteries so I can't recommend any. Find some that people have had for a few years and done some capacity tests after a year or two and work out how long they would last from their degradation.
This video convinced me to get home battery storage, thanks. I went for the Growatt battery 6.5KWH as there was a 6-month wait for the GivEnergy. Prices have gone up a lot as this system cost me £4600. It's been 1 month I have saved £40-50 on the energy bill using Octopus Go. It is a no-brainer.
@@stephendavies3111 Hi Stephen. I have an EV on order arriving in April and Octopus was ok with that (allowed me to use the Tariff). They might require you to provide confirmation of the order number. I was never asked for the order number at any time when I applied for the tariff.
You change depending on what is expected. Some systems will do that automatically by looking into the weather forecasts for the next day! Other systems just mean you do it manually and its just about changing it between seasons. You move between a self consumption method to a time of use method generally in the winter. In the summer self-consumption will generally do better to avoid waste to the grid.
Thanks for that presentation. Very useful. I have been planning to do some research on it for some time - but you have covered all the basics. Givenergy site confirmed a few details that I thought essential. The battery you are using has a battery management system that prevents discharge below 15% and prevents charging above 95%, so the 8.2kw battery has a usable capacity of 6.56kWh but you can cycle between these values on a daily basis for 10 years plus. A domestic user may not need to do a full cycle every day, so that average life of this battery should be much longer. Even with this battery it is still worth setting the washing machine to come on in the night time cheap rate.
Are you sure that's correct? GiveEnergy claim a depth of discharge of 100%. This is based on the fact that the battery itself is actually bigger than the stated capacity (eg more like 10kw for an 8,2kw battery) so that they can still claim a 100% DoD on the published capacity.
But looking in more detail at my Octopus Energy bill, I use 10 kWh per day at peak rate 16p/kWh for my Go tariff at the moment. I would need two 8Kwh batteries to shift that to the 5 p rate. I couldn't find the maximum charge rate or charge curve for these batteries so I don't know if they will charge from 0% to 100% in the 4 hour period available on the GO tariff. If they can do this then I would save 11p / kWh or £1.10 a day, or £400 a year ( with two batteries ) That is a break even of well over 10 years. I will look again at what I am paying when my fixed rates end next year. But even a doubling of peak rate charges would give rather a long break even time. Note also that there are energy losses in the process of grid to battery and battery to house consumption and it would be useful to know what percentage of losses are.
@@dartmoorrambler It would be also very useful to know how much power you can drain at any time from batteries, it might just be that you can only have a washing machine on and everything else switch off so it does not need help from the grid. Also what's the actual cost of installation and hardware needed? it's not like you just slap some batteries into the system and of you go there is need of some sort high capacity cables and inverter. your point with fast charge in 4 hours windows is also good one, from what we all know fast charge reduce life of batteries...
Following your earlier video recommendation, I have installed a GivEnergy system with 12 pv panels and currently a 5 kWh battery, 8.2 kWh awaited when they are in the country. I would be very interested to see how you have set your app up to charge your battery and car from the 5p rate during the 4 hour slot. Great videos by the way. Thanks.
I was quoted about £4200 plus vat to add a 8.2kwh givenergy battery plus inverter to my existing solar system. My calculations (using Octopus Go tariff) showed a payback time of about 11 years, so for me I decided not to go ahead with it. Which is a shame. It would help if government changed vat to 5% imho but probably would still make payback time for me at about 10 years. TX for very useful and informative video.
Give energy say 92.5% in and 85% out so 78.6% "round trip" - which seems to be a bit low to me as my car does 85 to 90 %. Maybe the Give Energy 85% is a cumulative figure??
I didn't think you were going to mention about taking taking your battery system with you when moving house but you did Lol I think its a huge selling point that you can invest in battery storage and know you don't not have to leave it behind.
Informative video. 12 months ago I added a Tesla power wall to my 8 year old Solar p/v array. I couldn’t believe the difference, and I agree battery first. I would say a battery with a loan to purchase will still give a reasonable payback.and then a substantially reduced electric bill. And there are so many batteries coming onto the market.
Your research and findings are consistent with what we have found/installed/advised our customers on. Each individual case is different and not everyone can get the same rates and/or install a battery but as a generalization this is supported. I have one customer that already does this with a Tesla Powerwall and 3kw solar array on Economy 7. Effectively even if they buy in at the night rate they can sell during the day - which with Octupus is exactly what they do during peak times. It has paid itself off in the last 3 years. On the other side we have a former customer with a 7kw solar array, no battery storage, on Economy 10 with Electric heating (formerly electric central heating, now an ashp). The customers extended family realized a battery on E10 or swapping to E7 would be more beneficial with their solar installation when doing their research, but instead opted for a grant for ashp and has unfortunately would not have made any savings without the grant.
Thanks for the info.. I think soon we'll be looking at a solar Panel array and a battery system.. Here in Mid-East France we have a lot of sun from March -December but January and February are often freezing fog... The off peak tarrif is 8 heures here rather than the 4 hours in the UK.. Best off peak tarrif I've seen is about 10p and peak 15p... So not as cheap as the UK but not as expensive on peak times... Our home is very energy efficient as we constructed in 2018 and we went way past the legal standards... Of course like anything else prices have gone up for energy.. Not sure they'll go as high as you suggest or there will be civil unrest if people start to get very cold.. We haven't purchased an EV but no doubt will.. I like the Toyota BZ4X because I can trust Toyota for service and reliability.. Downside is the range is about 450km/280 miles so not up there with the very best.. .. I do think that Toyota range figures are more true than most of the competitors. We have off road parking etc.. Interesting times..
Hi I have been enjoying your content for a while now! Thank you for this presentation, very informative! I have a couple of queries if you don’t mind helping? First off, how fast can the batteries charge? I notice a 16kw option is available, but can this size charge up in the 4 hour octopus go window? Secondly, if my car is charging at the same time, are charging rates going to be slower on both? Thanks in advance.
I got my 8.2 kWh givenergy battery from 4% to 100% in the octopus go window last night. It's currently at 45% (it got topped up during the day with solar, but it was a miserable day here). I've only had it up and running a few days so am still getting into the swing of things. For example, I'm gonna be charging the car up tonight alongside the home battery. I'm not sure what the throttle on input to the house would be to charge both in the octopus go window. I'll know tomorrow
I believe that the system has a 3.2kw invertor. In theory, ou can charge and discharge at that rate. So that should mean you can go from flat to full in under 3 hours on the 8.2kw battery. (Not accounting for losses). If you doubled up to 16.4kw it would make sense to add a second invertor, which would give you a 6kw charge/discharge rate.
@@airevalleyclassics The max charge/discharge rate on the GiveEnergy system (from the battery on it'sown) is 2800W. It can go up to 5000w if you have PV creating energy at the same time. GiveEnergy are planning on releasing a 2nd generation in spring '22 which is likely to have a higher max charge/discharge rate. So, in summary and in theory, the 8.2 kw battery should charge in about 3 hours. To charge up a 16kw system in the same time would require a second inverter.
Got the Alpha ESS 3kwh with 2 3kwh expansions for 8.7kwh usable. Got it installed for £4000. My only thoughts on your man maths is the round trip efficiency is about 90% you lose 10% in the charging and discharging. And adding solar helps you get through the day. Can reduce the daytime use to 0.3kwh in my case. 0.3kwh is due to the 5 second reaction for the battery to "spin up" and takeover the grid draw.
I went onto one of the council schemes, said my south facing roof needed at least a 6kw system , but it would only generate 1.7 kw which made it a pointless investment
Great video. Wouldn't it be great if V2G technology was more advanced. Imagine having a 30 to 50kWh battery to draw on with only a V2G charge point needed.
V2G would solve a lot of problems but also kill a lot of other parties who make £££ elsewhere which is why I suspect it won't move quickly for a while - but yes having a moveable xxkWh battery makes a lot of sense either for powering a house, car, the grid or whatever - energy sources/stores need to be re-thought of as being flexible rather than 'stuck' to the thing they came with or were installed in!
For anyone watching this video now, since this was filmed several months back, yes the prices have risen (along with everything else).
5p EV tariff not available unless you have an electric vehicle
@@iainmackay9269 I think it has gone up to 7.5p which is still much cheaper than the normal rates, which have also risen.
Octopus made a boo boo on my account (and seemingly a bunch of others) and offered to fix the 5p/15p rate for another year. I have my suspicions that they actually want customers paying a range of different tariffs on Go so they can understand how elastic the demand is.
I've just had my offer to renew my contract with EDF, in Cornwall UK. They want to increase my day time rate from 22.23 to 55.08 p/kWh, and my night time rate from 17.81 to 43.77 p/kWh. And the standing charge from 35 to 50 p/day. I used 6000 kWh daytime units and 5000 night time units last year.
@@Spike-by3cy They have an EV tariff I believe. GoElectric
EVM, in case you were not aware, your video has created quite a surge in enquiries. The supplier I have just placed an order with told me yesterday they have had over 70 calls referring to your video since Friday and likely has been has been repeated across the UK. Well done, you should be proud to make such a difference
Who was that?
@@ElectricVehicleMan Halo Renewables in Peterborough
@@ytdrg can you recommend them?
@@mentalwillie3052 Yes, so far. Currently waiting for an install date
Nice work, EVM. Somebody sponsor this man! 🔋
Having a house battery makes sense. Prices as we know have gone through the roof, but Octopus recently cut our monthly payment. One thing I do beg to differ on though is the Powerwall VFM. The user experience is very easy and, crucially, the 'Backup' combined with StormWatch feature, makes it a good deal for many of us.
We live in a rural area and due to recent storm warnings the Powerwall automatically overode the normal operation and charged fully before the storm hit. A good job too! We suffered a 7-hour powercut and unlike our neighbours we carried on cooking and watching TV, lights on etc.
Even made tea for our neighbour.
Batteries give more than money savings, they give peace of mind too.
Great analysis and breakdown. I have an EV, Solar and on the same Tariff as yourself. Also what you haven’t mentioned is the replacement of Boilers to ASHP which need electricity to power. We heat the house using our ASHP in the 4 hour period using underfloor heating until 4.30am and then it regulates again at 10am when the solar starts to become effective and then finally goes off at 4pm because UFH keeps the heat in the floor for a few hours after. I am saving for the Battery and hoping to get one before my tariff changes…People need to get savvy so good on you for spreading the knowledge.
How much did a2a pump cost, and what size is your house - 2 storey? I have a 90sqm single storey dwelling, only electric, and have been thinking about a2a.
@@safetyladysilver8988 it was a 16kwh Samsung and the total cost was £12,500. The property is quite large and once renovated will be about 200sqm. Mine was on the RHI scheme which ends in April and i will get 75% of my investment back over 7 years. You would probably be ok wiith an 8 or 12Kwh a2a
@@alancwright is an A2A heat pump just a heat pump based air conditioner or something different?
I'm interested in heat pump for heating (have gas heating wet UFH in house), and aircon for summer cooling. Would be ideal if I can use one system for cooling and heating. Thanks
@@Meza201 Hi Meirion, The Samsung A2A is supposed to allow heating and cooling but here in the UK I was told by the heating engineer that it could only be used for Heating due to regulations, although the manual did show it was possible. I too want an AC for the south facing bedrooms and utilise my Solar in the Summer as much as possible so will be investigating further when the time comes to fit an AC.
@AlanC Wright What temperature do you heat the UFH to overnight?
Big Problem!! Many electricity providers are urgently working on ways to prevent consumers using off-peak power to charge their batteries!! Unless you can rig your own system, most new inverter installations will (soon) not allow you to charge batteries during off-peak hours.
Battery was a great saver for me and the family. Because the solar feed in had dropped, the system is part of a virtual power grid that helps top up other homes as well as mine . But its different here in south Australia.
We have had 40 panels for 10 years now and the savings have been incredible. Keep smiling everyone
Hi Wayne, can you explain a bit more about how your system is part of a virtual power grid serving other homes? Sounds interesting.
I’ve had a 19kWh battery pack for almost 2 years now, initially purchased to store solar. We also have an EV now and I’ve gone onto Go Faster (5.5p for 5 hours) and have been charging the batteries overnight and charging the car when needed. I’ve trawled back through my records and done the analysis that you did on the whiteboard - my average electricity rate since going onto Go Faster in Jan has worked out at 6.1p per kWh - so I’m well chuffed. I’m just about to beef up my solar to the max, so 2022 should be an interesting year.
What is the max on solar?
The max is dictated, in the UK, by the DNO (Distribution Network Operator), or local power company - and it’s how much you can export to the grid. So, think when it’s peak summer and your battery is 100% full and the house isn’t consuming any of that - a “worst case” scenario. If you have a 4kW system then you could end up exporting all 4kW - hence you have to have their permission. This is usually obtained by your approved solar installer in advance of the solar PV system being fitted. In my case I now have permission to have this limit increased from 4kW to 7kW. It means that I can now legally increase the size of my system to 7kW. Obviously, the weather at this time of year in the UK isn’t great, so getting it all done in the next few weeks will give me a clear run into 2022. Hope that all makes sense 👍
Now this is a comment worth reading
Thanks
I have done exactly the same! Tesla Model S and 10kWh of home storage. The 10kWh is more than enough to run my small home all day, so I only charge at the cheap overnight rate (buying less when solar is available). Works fantastically.
Hoe long until the battery pays for itself?
I’ve passed the link to this video to my daughter and partner (or whatever you call them these days). They’re part electric, part gas, so this battery size would possibly be ideal. They run an Ioniq 28 and are looking to add solar at some point.
We installed solar and Powerwall 3 years ago. Ripped out the oil boiler and heating plumbing and installed electric heating and Mixergy tank…Vailant etc wouldn’t install heat pump due to age and efficiency of house. Payback for the 5.7kw array and Powerwall was initially a 15/16 years. Electric was too expensive for heating by electric for the first two winters.
However, the Octopus/Tesla tariff came along, and as we run a SR+ we qualified for the £0.08 kWh import, and £0.08 kWh export with no standing charges. We had the heating on for the first time during the recent winter months…with no need to use the wood burner (except for visual display at Christmas). Prior to this, the burner was flat out.
One of the real satisfactions of the Octopus/Tesla tariff is that the homes hooked to it make use of the auto bidder software and act as reliable mini power/peaker plants. It’s early days at the moment regarding uptake, but we recently received an email from Tesla say that over the past 3 months we’d contributed to the production of 830,000kWh (enough to power 286 homes for a year). Imagine what several million households could pump to the grid on this tariff/scheme. It’s quite something to see the battery empty kWhs to the grid during high demand periods.
This solution, along with the growth of renewable energy production, could potentially result in the costs of electricity dropping. Although the Govt have all but obstructed the growth of community energy production (wind and solar), there’s what you might describe as a shit ton of roof space for solar on homes, factories, warehouses etc. We could conceivably create an over-production of energy, which in tandem with battery storage could even provide free/low cost electric for people going through hard times.
But, as you say, if there aren’t funds for personal solar, a battery does make very good sense. (There’s a ten or so year guarantee on the Powerwall, which I presume is the same for yours? Hopefully the Oct/Tesla tariff won’t go up, or too much, next year, meaning that the Powerwall pays itself off in a few years).
They're still called daughters.
@@scottlittlewood4527 Ah ha! That’s good to know. And partners, they’re still called partners right?
So, regarding solar/batteries etc, are they still a waste of money, with short working life and no chance of paying themselves back, or is that something that has changed?
I don't know about partners, that's complicated, you could be accused of all sorts if you get that bit wrong. As for batteries, my dilemma is should I pay Western Power £5k to connect my new 2 bedroom house to the grid, or buy batteries? I live alone, I'm out all day, my roof is hipped, but I have a garden and parking space adjoined. My feeling deep down, is that batteries need to be a bit cheaper in the UK and an obvious choice of manufacturer needs to emerge.
@@scottlittlewood4527 Haha. I believe obvious providers are already here, and worth the punt despite being unnervingly expensive at first glance. Maybe don’t wait too long.
Great summary very useful. Yes givenergy guarantee 10 years
I just had our system fitted and commissioned this last week. 12 panels on the roof and a Powerwall and gateway in the garage! Tariff and meter not changed yet and it’s only late February but we’re mostly self sufficient already. Best I’ve had is 3.1kv on a sunny day but I’ve had the battery full several times and even when the next day was dull the battery ran the house until mid afternoon! With electric set to rise even if I don’t sell spare back we will have a dramatic fall in running costs! ASHP will come after new windows and radiators though.
When sizing battery capacity it is important to know peak charge rate, as there is only a 4 hour window to charge in. So a 8kwh battery must charge at a consistent 2kw rate. This will limit the maximum achievable payback as it limits the maximum battery size.
You also need to be mindful of household load, the battery inverter may not for example fully follow a +3kw peak from cooking an evening meal but will happily follow a 500w consistent daytime load. Households that avoid very peaky loads will be able to make the most of the stored energy, in a similar way to making best use of solar panels. The battery must also have the capability to follow load so that it does not export.
I believe the Tesla Powerwall battery charges from empty to full in about 3 hours and 20 minutes. Trouble is with this battery is you can't go over 5kwh at anyone time with it. If you are using more than 5kwh at anyone time you draw power from the grid. I believe this was the case, not sure if it has changed since. Battery is good if there is a power cut(assuming you got the gateway installed next to the battery).
Whilst the situation here in Sydney Australia is very different, (the off peak rate with our company is only available for hot water) our sunny climate makes the photovoltaic cells much more attractive. Many homes now are fitted with P/V cells so we reverse the situation where we generate power in the day and need power once the big ball of nuclear fusion sinks below the horizon. Batteries seem a bit dearer here but there is a possibility of obtaining a used battery pack from an EV which usually is replaced when down to
An 8.2kwh battery can surely only save you 8.2kwh of full price electricity per day, maximum. So compared with a 35p tariff you will save 30p x 8.2 x 365 which is £898. Any other savings can be achieved regardless whether you have a battery or not. Furthermore, if your day time rate is higher than normal rates due to the tariff you should factor in the difference.
Was the video not also assuming another 1.8kwh switched into the cheap rate by timing dishwashers etc? I agree though it's a very movable feast and too predicated on assumed cheap OP rates.
I'm in Brisbane, Queensland, so fairly sunny place. We installed 14.5kw of panels and full battery system two years ago. It cost AU $31,500 (about GBP16,000). It pays all our electricity bills and we export about $2500 of power to the grid each year, or over 20% annual return on the investment. It will pay itself off in 5yrs, then we're in clover for the rest of the system's lifetime, guaranteed 12yrs for the Sonnen batteries and 25yrs for the Chinese panels. We hardly use the gas cooker and use an electric induction cook top. It's 36C outside today, 80% humidity and 25C inside with no sweating. Solar A/C. Love it.
house batteries are one of those fundamental technologies that appears to have gone under the radar a little. But they are key, the best place to start with the green transition. a short payback, not too disruptive to install generally, and plug and play. there are so many positives with them. Many thanks for highlighting the benefits.
WOW I'm blown away by the saving that could be made right now, I was looking at going for solar panels and batteries system, but the just battery system looks a no brainer option that I will need to look at. Thanks for that.
A thing to think about: with electrification of heat and hot water coming within the next ten years, the battery savings are nearly *essential* because the gas option will start to go and get more and more expensive. A battery now should make it more affordable to move later and decarbonise.
The UA-cam algorithm has its benefits... I was glad to see this, a useful breakdown, thank you.
I'm in the process of installing a modest battery system now but balancing solar charge with day time charging & consumption, best outcome at the moment as most electricity providers have withdrawn new customer access to EV tariffs recently. Seeing that my basic arithmetic is backed up by yours, albeit skewed by the different power balance/ savings I'm encouraged to get on with the job. I'll jump to an EV tariff as soon as they become available again.
Literally been investigating this route since I was told I can't have viable solar so thanks for the information!
So you live in Scotland then? ;-)
Same 8.2kw battery here too plus solar. I charge the Model 3 overnight on the Go Faster rate and use solar to top up the battery in the day ( boosted in the 5.5p rate at night if needed) I also have a heat pump for house heating. So far this year not emptied the battery in the day so not been on peak rates. I am getting a similar costing to yourself, ranging from 67p to around £1 a day excluding car charging. Mine was commissioned at the beginning of October so the timing was perfect, I had no idea of the rate increases coming when I ordered the system. Sure glad I got it now
Worth noting a couple of points I have found with a non hybrid GiveEnergy invertor and a 16.8 kWh battery system (AC coupled system to the consumer unit with an existing solar system);
- There is a delay between the software switching between call to grid power and switching over to battery. You will see some grid usage even with a full battery available, although not massive
- The maximum AC coupled inverter is (or was 6 months ago) rated in the region of 3.6kWh, so at night when there is no solar, any call for more than 3.6kWh from the house will also draw from the grid, so you still need to be selective with using multiple high load devices.
Also, I had previously been using a powerdiverter to heat the hot water with surplus solar generation, however I have no replaced this with a timed switch on the immersion as the 5p per kWh on Octopus Go I was finding little excess solar generation was available to heat the water after the batteries were charged, so replaced this with a timer to benefit from the 5p per kWh which works out cheaper than using Oil.
I would add my current electricity bill is around £25 a month, and that includes EV charging which is almost only done at home.
Some good and bad things you haven't considered:- you get fewer KW-Hrs out of your battery than you put in. Electricity prices will increase but battery systems might become cheaper. Savings are after tax, bank interest is taxable. Interest rates are set to rise, this could affect the cost of an installation if you borrow money to finance it. You still get power during power cuts.
Just an additional piece of information for people to consider, Octopus changed the T&Cs of their go tariff, so now Go is only available for EV drivers.
How are they asking applicants to prove this?
I switched to Go 6 weeks ago and wasn't asked whether I had an EV or not, and just got in before the recent price increases. If anybody from Octopus is listening I do have an EV😁
Their T&C do now say that you need to have an EV. I think it says that if they find out you don't they can move you off the tariff.
I'm about to push the button on a home battery and I'm swapping my second I'VE car for a cheap Nissan Leaf..
So if you only have an ebike octopus energy are penalising your greenness?
for the people to whom is not able to get access to the Go Tariff, what tariff would you go for, cos looking around all the other tariffs are up in the 20p mark. for both day and night
I've just installed a secondhand ME3000SP with an old set of lead acid batteries. The batteries are near end-of-life (10 years old but designed for at least 12) and spent a good chunk of that time as a telephone switch battery pack. It'll be interesting to see how long the batteries last, but it's a 16kWh pack (48V 320Ah) so I expect it'll be a little while before they finally start to struggle. Oh, and the pack was free because I was the one scrapping the phone switch :)
If you've got solar then you could consider battery storage a "payback accelerator". Yes, it'll cost more, but it'll do its damnedest to stop the electricity meter moving, which solar alone won't do.
I have a moixa 4.8kw system married to a 2 KW solar panel system. I have found the battery is much more useful than the solar system. Im also on octopus go and charge my battery on the off peak electric. With the solar panels supplementing the battery during the day I can and do regularly get through to the late evening without using the higher tariff. 3 bed house with a family of 4. Had this setup for 3 years now, had some teething problems at first but moxia were pretty good at fixing it. Overall the battery is a better option than solar panels so I agree with evman. I also managed to get paid for the energy the solar panels make for the next 20 years.
The battery viability part may not be so viable when you take in to account the limited battery warranty, the panels are fine as they have long warranties.
I run a block of flats and they had storage radiators installed 25 years ago. They automatically come on about 1am to 7am on a separate live circuit on the mains. People have criticised them as old fashioned and inefficient over the years. I like them as they're easy to maintain, don't leak and give good background heating as they are on all the time. I find them reasonablly good provided you have cavity wall installation and double glazing, which we have.
So Smug mode engaged!
Thanks for this - perfect timing! No immediate plans to install solar, but been kicking the idea of a battery around for a while. Wasn't sure whether it would make sense 👍
Having a shower at night + trying to get a qualified electrician to install a job for £150 good luck with that one
I fitted a Tesla Battery and have had this for past year. I love the fact that it can fill up at the cheap rate on my Economy 7 and use during the day. My house seems to use around 23 kWh per day, but my savings are around £100 per month. I did also add an extra 4kWh solar, but for me the 13.5 Tesla battery has made a huge difference to my bills. I also agree that with electricity costs rising , the battery will keep saving money and last for many years. Tesla warranty indicates it should remain above 80% in 10 years time!
I also believe there is a cost in amount of kWh used to convert AC to DC and back again, so this may increase the number of kWh used by the home.
Good saving if £100 a month there. How much for the battery and solar amount to? How long to start making a saving?
This kind of thing is why I chose a High Heat Retention storage heater (Dimplex Quantum 150) for my one bed house, as well as replacing the electric shower with one fed from the hot water tank. The heater stores up to about 12kWh of heat from the 4 hours of 5p/kWh, which is keeping my house nice and warm at a really cheap rate.
I'm 56 and when i was a kid we heated our house with three storage heaters. We couldn't wait for the council to install central heating. How ironic that we are being pushed back towards storage heaters of various kinds.
All i need now is metal framed single glazed windows with ice on the inside and i'll be ten years old again!
Still almost double the cost of heating with gas.
@@koitorob and you had separate meter too -hard to know what Air to Water heat pumps cost
I got exactly the same system having watched your earlier videos. I’ve never looked back saved some real money. Only difference is I’m on “ agile” which I am reconsidering at the moment as I’ve only had one day of being paid to charge
@@AegisK very few at the moment as I’ve only had the battery system about 6 months but I’ve had solar for 6 years. I run the house using solar mostly so it costs nothing and they also charge the battery up for night time use. Now winter is approaching I suspect I’ll start paying but I look for the cheapest time to charge, for example I got 2 hours yesterday free and a couple at 4p and 5p but since the energy problems there have been regular 35p hours most of the day even at night. I’m watching closely to decide if I change to go or not
@@andrewdyson4255 are you on Agile Outgoing and if so how has that been working out for you?
@@andrewdyson4255 if your battery was empty, what percentage could you fill in 4 hours?
@@AL-ib3lu that would depend on solar energy production or drawing from the mains, if it was purely mains I think it would take about 5 hours but I couldn’t be positive on that. I’m not technically minded I’m afraid
@@AL-ib3lu I've got the same system. It charges at about 2.2kW. So easily filled in 4 hours
We have 10.4 kW of Givenergy batteries along with solar. I’ve been on Octopus Go since December and over 81% of our imported electricity has been at 5p, making the average unit price 6.6p. So the batteries have certainly been a massive advantage.
If you factor in the payment receive for exports the import unit price comes down to 2.5p! And if you include solar to battery/home, we paid 1.3p for each unit we consumed. Obviously there is the standing charge to include and the installation cost! But at this rate the repayment period will be shorter than anticipated.
Are you sure your using Octopus Go as there’s no export on this tariff.
@@captainkangaroo8309 Yes, Go for imports, I export to a different company. You don’t need to use the same company for import and exports, which means you can shop around for the best rates for each. Some will pay 5p for exports, so during the winter I set the battery to fully charge on cheap rate and then if we generate enough solar to export it balances off the import costs.
@@dcsh78 I had no idea this was possible. How do you set this up?
Hi, we're just looking at getting a battery too (already have solar (9+yrs) a Solar iBoost+ and an ev) can i ask why you went for a 10.4Kw battery, i'm assuming its 2x5.2kw units.? to me it makes sense to do it once so buy bigger than what you need 'now' not wish you'd bought bigger 2yrs down the line.
Hi @@nicksportster8711 to be honest the battery size was the recommendation of our installer, it is roughly what we use in the house per day excluding EV charging. Yes it’s 2 x 5.2 kWh. On an intense cooking or washing day when the sun isn’t shining the batteries do run out, so we would need more storage to fully avoid peak rates. If I was to get more I’d have them on a separate inverter to allow for a greater combined discharge rate, which would help cover those times when multiple appliances are on at the same time and we end up imparting. But you there is a balance to be struct between installation costs and ongoing… Possibly worth looking at solution that can be expanded in the future based on need and if battery cost reduce as the technology develops.
I have just come across your videos. I am a electrician and am looking at installing this in my house.
Price aside, knowing that my power is entirely coming from the sun makes me feel pretty good. We have 31 panels on the roof and two Tesla batteries. We have two EVs and the only time we might draw from the grid is when we use the aircon, and even then we rarely deplete the batteries. Most of the time we send more than half of our solar generation (and as much as 90 percent) back to the grid. This means people in Los Angeles (that's where I live) are benefitting from our solar power generation.
Awesome stuff. I have a 6.2kw system in Ohio, and a Tesla, and wife has a Bolt. It's a good thing Tesla is building a megafactory to make megapacks, cause it seems the UK needs them too.
My newer inverter aircon sits happily at about 400W all day. Not too much at all. My biggest load is the clothes dryer.
Wow that's quite a system. I've got aircon in the garden office and cold sunny days it's powered 100%solar. That is very satisfying
@@m1geo hang the clothes on an airer with a fan blowing on them. Saves a fortune and humidifies the house
I had 14 panels. Then added 12 more. So 26 panels attached to a 3.7 and 2.5kW inverter. Got the Alpha ESS battery storage capable of storing 8.7kWh usable. Enough to get me through the night in summer. And, charge during the night on the Octopus 5p tariff. Also got the Model 3 SR+. The solar does my hot water 9 months of the year. Have gas backup for the rest of the time.
Been looking at battery for a while now, already got and paid up solar pv, definitely installing a battery. Thanks for the great video.
You still have some type of standing charge / carbon tax to factor in. Also in Ireland we are charged MORE for night/day tariff (€50 per year extra) which reduces cost savings a bit. Our taxes are about €1 per day before ANY usage. Still, it makes sense to have a battery. Interesting your usage is about the same as mine (2 adult household). I've a slightly smaller GivEnergy Battery 6 kWh in about 2 years with PV. You have to be clever in setting the overnight charge up rate in case you get a very sunny day the next day as PV is free and I hate having a full battery heading into a sunny day!
4.58 years that's less than 5 years very insightful. Now serious response , good video I previously thought the battery wouldn't pay for itself , although pretty sure battery prices have come down recently, they weren't that cheap last time I checked but that was a few years back
This is interesting, even if the cost of battery storage and installation increases the saving over time is virtually guaranteed. I have one nagging doubt. Batteries deteriorate over time, ask any Tesla owner. What is the cost of upgrading / replacing just the battery component of the system and how long will the battery last at let's say 70%+ capacity?
Can't see the 5p rate lasting, have you seen how much standing charge is , why should we pay to have meter in house.... Per day... Its a bit of kit they need as well, can we charge energy companies rent for the space their meter takes up in our homes...??? The candles are out.... Light and heating all in one little stick
Just a thought, but as energy providers get more Solar, Wind and Battery system’s installed, won’t energy prices stabilise and perhaps reduce? After all, they won’t have to pay for Coal, Gas or other combustibles🤔 It’s now cheaper to install renewable system’s than to run a coal powered plant🤯
What are the maintenance costs of the battery system? How long do the batteries last?
So I’ve only watched 30 seconds so far and already it’s what I’ve been harping on about to my architect (I’m and electrician and he refers work to me) for months now. Solar…yes, but batteries coupled with the right tariff…ok, I’ll carry on watching now.
The difference between peak and off peak is what matters when doing the battery only payback calculation. Can't help thinking the differential is going to shrink as off peak demand rises due to EV charging and Home Battery charging usage.
I believe capturing alternative energy (solar, wind) should be the main driver when evaluating the investment.
Another benefit of the Home Battery is to keep other home usage supported during power outages. e.g. Home heating, entertainment, modems etc.
Very well presented video thank you. I am really pleased that we can chat about this as well. Now before I continue my advise from exsperiance is Do not fit battery in loft space unless you have the area where the battery is kept is very well ventilated as it gets really hot in a loft and your equipment will fail at some point. The other important factor is to make sure you have at least a minimum of 6 years warranty on a battery and controller if it needs one. Again my exsperiance I have had 3 battery failures under warranty and if you read the small print you will find that they will supt you with a recon unit, which in most cases is not good as I said 3 failures. I am now not in warranty so when this fails again the question is would I buy another at £3k.for me no. I would prefer to purchase extra solar surface area for winter use or buy 48 v forklift lead acid battery's which have more grunt and cheaper. Only thing is you need more space. Now calculations which are always fantastic on paper but when put to practice not always correct. It's really all about payback time £4k. A lot of money to save money and switching between tariffs very difficult with the hike in the market now. I run a bungalow most of it now runs on electric so as a working class man with zero disposible income I will always be looking at my electric bill. My ev needs say 7.5 hours to fully charge say when it's at 26%. So for me I had to go to economy 7 it suited us at that time. The way I save is doing everything like ev charging, dish washer washing machine, bread making, pressure cooking all is done on economy 7. My 2 big drain are american fridge freezer and small chest freezer in garage but I have to live with this. I spent £13k on an 8 kw Solar with 5 kw battery, pay back was 12 years, I am 6 year into it now. Warrant now gone on battery. I have had an inverter failure which was changed under warranty a recon issued and its taken months to have it replaced a the same with the battery's it took months to get replaced and it was all in good summer months. My fit payment is 00.049p not a lot but it helps. My return roughly is £480per year my usage even with solar and battery per month is average £78. The best thing about solar is the summer months I can run my ev for free but from this month till say April next year my 5kw battery may only get to 26% charge due to poor light. So its switched off over this period as I want to use it for home. If I had a field I would put 30kw of solar pannels to charge 8 48v forklift battery's this would run my home over winter excluding ev. I love battery tech but to spend £4k pus on a battery system based on it charging on 4 hours cheap rate is a great way but the energy company's don't really want to give to much away so most people fall for special tariffs which intise ev owners but day rates go up a lot and standing charge also. The goverment should give a grant to have battery's at least 50% off to make it cost effective for all, they should cap electricity prices. LCT is good when a goverment needs to step in and help more. Everyone buys evs at the moment mostly people with a few Bob or two, but the average home has more than one car, most homes could not run a second or third ev charger, all homes will require 3 phase but that's another chat another day.
You must have picked a poor battery manufacturer. This has a 10 year warranty, 15-20 year lifetime.
When your EV says 7.5 hours, that’s to 100%. It’ll be 6 hours to get to 95%.
@@ElectricVehicleMan at the time Growatt seemed a good choice. But it's like I suppose insurance, how can you tell how good they are until you need to use them.
We have 5Kw of battery with our solar system. Right now we top up at night and run the house in the morning for pennies……cost a lot especially with no government grants available but we feel the payback is better than the interest we get in money in the bank. Just wish we could have afforded 10kw of storage but there you go !
Thank you for your information, I maybe one of the lucky ones as I have had solar panels fitted for free and have just been on a trial of a battery system also fitted free. And I have already seen the benefits of the two systems. I will now do my washing over the night time . Colin from London
If you can find a variable tariff that gives me those sorts of prices without having to own an EV I'd be in.
same here
Thanks for a very helpful video.
I’m about to get a 16.5 kw Sonnen battery fitted so this is fascinating. I use around 8000 kws per year. About 60% of this is used at night.
I’m now paying 28p per kilowatt. I don’t have an electric car but have an air source heat pump and solar panels. The latter generates about 4200 kws per year.
I think I’ll save about £2000 per year using your sums. Thanks again.
Here in the south of England I have 32 PV panels rated at 9.2KW + and GivEnergy 8.2KW battery. Looking to add another 8.2KW battery soon to capture more of the electricity we produce and to top up the batteries off peak during the dark months. One full EV and one PHEV to keep charged. Certainly agree with your figures.
I was looking at getting 2 x powerwalls to complement my solar but these givenergy units along with the control system look like a better bet. Also considering a SunAmp heat battery to replace my boiler!
How did you manage to get 9kW of pv? Residential is limited to around 4kw as I remember..
@@MikeGleesonazelectrics The only limit is on the Feed in Tariff, you can put as much as you want up though.
@@Richard-fx6go oh where do you live? In Devon they've put a limit on without getting permission first from the DNO :(
@@MikeGleesonazelectrics Yes you have to ask permission of the DNO but if your system can handle it, you have room and it fits in with the existing grid framework, then you can add more.
Thanks for that info…I have never thought about just getting a battery system without being alongside Solar Panels…food for thought…many thanks well presented…cheers…Brian.
Thanks for this! We’re just buying a house and this was a major consideration for me but it was so confusing where to even start or if it was worth it. 🤞🏻 they never get rid of the 5p rate (or similar)! Thank you!
The 5p rate is with Octopus and their GO tariff - 5p is from 00:30 -04:30 then back onto normal rate tariff.
@@christopherbond817 I know 👍🏻 I use it for the car at the moment
There will always be some periods of time when electricity is cheaper. Theoretically smart control systems could be set to buy when price is low - whenever that may be
The EVM content is some of the best out there! No big budgets but great work and really entertaining too!
OK this works and indeed I’ve been doing this in my case with a Tesla Powerwall. However the assumption on the price trend is I believe wrong. The price is currently high because of the price of gas which is used for a disturbing amount of electricity generation. This has driven the price of electricity up. However huge amounts of wind generation is planned for the North Sea and I read that is the cheapest way of generation once installed - so day rates may well reduce. Solar is cheaper too. I see Gridserve are keeping their rates low as their power is solar. On the other side there are about to be many more EVs and green hydrogen is likely to be consuming power overnight so the low night rate will be under pressure..
To view it another way if each household used an EV and travelled say 40 miles a day the example household would be needing as much power at night as during the day. Of course factories won’t be demanding much during the night but then Solar does not happen at night so supply is down..
So the low price at night may just be a transition thing and when gas is out of the generation game prices in the day may well drop.
I think there will always be times of day in the future when the price of energy drops. Energy storage should be able to exploit this.
Unfortunately it seems to be impossible to find a night rate tariff right now. I have a smart meter which can send readings every half hour so it should be capable, but even when I search for economy 7 tariffs, the night rates now just match the day rates, and it could get worse in April when the price cap expires.
Paying the full price cap here, all electric heating and hot water, no energy storage. A system like this would make perfect sense IF I could actually get a night rate.
What's the efficiency and life expectation on the battery bank? If the payback is 10yrs and the battery needs replacing at 10yrs also the saving would be drastically reduced.
Yeah they don't like to talk about that and we're not supposed to ask. You know as well as I do that ALL batteries start to deteriorate very quickly. I've been looking into these batteries and the life expectancy is between 5 and 15 years so worst case scenario you will have to replace it half way through paying for it and that's not taking into account how much performance will be lost before you have to replace it? The people who champion these things never want to address the negatives, like the electric cars, I know someone who bought an electric golf and when he first got it a full charge would give 130 miles, now, with less than 20 thousand miles on it he's lucky to get 70 miles but of course whenever you try to point that out to anyone they say "there must be something wrong with it"! Yeah there is, it's an electric car.
I would add a caveat to your otherwise excellent video. I bought a Varta battery with a max current rating of 2.4kW. This means that if I switch on the 3kW kettle I am drawing 2.4kW from the battery and 0.6kW from the distribution network. If I switch on the kettle. the drier and the washing machine all at the same time then I would be drawing about 7kW from the network. This limitation considerably complicates the calculation of the pay back period.
It looked like you have 2 batteries, maybe both are 7kW max output on seperate 32 amp circuits giving you an availabity of 14kW total. So you could handle 14kW max demand, having spent more money on installation costs?? At set up like this would probably cost more like £10k.
Anyway, it is important to relate your expected maximum demand to the maximum output from the battery in any calculations of cost and efficiency.
I have had to get the new octopus go rate where the night rate is 18.5p would be wonderful if it stayed at 5p. The 4 hour slot used to cost about £1.10 now costs about £6.00 to charge the car. Think you need to reassess your numbers to reflect the current costs. I have same battery backup system very good. Would be nice to see figures for the current octopus rates.
I have a horrible feeling these "time of day" tariffs will be abolished when batteries are widely available, as the "peak time" will no longer be a thing, or rather the peak time will become the night time, especially with more solar panels generating it during the day at home, and EVs being charged overnight. Probably a few years off yet, but I do see this happening
They will
Great video thanks. I guess given the size of electric car batteries it would be great to charge the car on low cost overnight electricity and then power the house from the car during the day. Any plans to look at this and do a video? Im fortunate that myself and wife both have EVs and largely work from home so it would be an ideal option avoiding the cost of buying a battery and using what we have already. Many thanks. G
This will be the way to go when more EVs are able to provide energy to the house / grid: not many can yet.
Great video, I have solars, previously fitted, and recently Tesla Powerwall, Broadly agree with your maths and thinking, plus the benefit of blackout system, only house in street at storm Arwen!!
Thanks keep em coming....
Thanks Andy. I went to Octopus (used your referral link) got a smart meter a few days ago and have a giv energy 16kw system due for fitting on 8 Nov. I thought the added capacity may have been over the top a bit at the time of ordering, but not now. I have solar, ev, 3 bedroom semi-detached. The way things are working out the battery is a no brainer. I decided battery costs were unlikely to come down much. The wholesale price reductions during the pandemic were not passed onto consumers. I've had to wait months for my battery and demand is such that Prices will not be likely to drop anytime soon.
If you don't mind me asking, how much was the 16kw battery system of your fitted and who did you use. Secondly, would a system that size charge in a 4 hour cheap tarrif window ? many thanks
Thank you lynn that was a very good reply.
Been thinking a lot about the finances of this, I’m concerned that it relies on a large differential between hi and low rates that I believe will erode as a night consumption increase with electric car and battery wall take up..
Need to do it soon
The guy who did my solar panel install said this (So take it with a pinch of salt)
The way he predicts electric going is that if most houses have battery storage and solar in future then the off peak period will become cheaper/potentially free, meaning they can free up electricity for industry during the day which can be sold at a higher price to offset domestic consumption. Be nice if it happens
That’s interesting, looking forward to 2030 or whenever all new cars are EVs, there will be a lot of energy used in the 4 hour off peak. Then again, different suppliers can use different times and surely there will always be a domestic off peak of some sort, as you say to free up power for industry. Keep an eye on China next year, they’re already imposing blackouts, next year they’ll be for many hours a day - we need to prepare our grid for the future with kit like this
Just had my renewal price though from octopus. Wondering if i can find the cash to put in a 2nd 5kw battery
You totally echo my thoughts,👏👏🇬🇧
The key question which no one seems to be asking is..... what is the life span of the home battery itself. I know from years in IT the batteries in Uninteruptable Power Supplies for example do not last that long, maybe 5 years. So if your batteries fail in say year 6 and you have to repalce the battery packs, you are saving very little indeed. You are banking on the lifespan of the batteries being 10 years, So say it costs you 5k, and you save 1k per year in electric and you get 10 years, so by year 5 you have recouped your original 5k investment and by year 10 you have saved another 5k which is just enough to replace your batteries. That is providing you put your savings to one side to be able to afford the outlay of new batteries.
Key question that no one’s asking? It’s been asked about a thousand times in this comments section..
20+ year lifespan (batteries in UPSs are nothing like these.
@@ElectricVehicleMan couldnt be arsed to read 3000 comments. Battery technology hasnt suddenly changed, your cars own battery will fail in 10 years, your phone battery will fail in less time depending on its charging cycles, UPS batteries are there to deliver 240v and enough power to keep devices or areas running in the event of power failure yet they dont last and after 5 years or so you get that dreaded replace battery error code. even Electric car batteries fail after a period of time, depending on use, which is why you have to lease the batteries. So what 'magic' battery technology are house batteries using that means with daily use and daily charging they last so much longer than any other battery technology we currently have ?
Fail to factor in efficiency loss and battery ageing/degredation.
That would be negated by rising energy costs.....
@@Brian-om2hh no it wouldn't because you will be paying more to charge it.
Proper management of lithium batteries reduces efficiency loss and degradation to very low levels. Keeping the batteries cycling between (say) 30 and 70% or thereabouts gives an excellent life and very little degradation in efficiency. What kills lithium cells is deep discharge, which is why older laptops and phones were so prone to killing batteries - they'd discharge to almost zero before switching off. similarly, charging to 100% also causes degradaton My current laptop has a battery management controller that I has set at a maintenance level of 50% for desktop use and limits discharge to 20% and charge to 90%. It's 5 years old and the batteries test out at 95% of rated capacity.
December i was using 12kw per day on average. That's 1 person in a 4 bed dormer bungalow with a heat pump. My energy provider went bust and i was shifted to British gas at 21p per kw.
Excellent presentation simple yet effective! Makes you think however I’m thinking that you have to have an EV as companies are starting to check that you have and EV to get the Go tariff etc. many thanks for the spade work, much appreciated.
Clue in the name EV man! Tesla Model 3 just like me.
I nearly fell off my chair when you said 12kwh daily usage.
I live in Sweden, no gas, all electric with a heat pump to supply hot water and heat.
My lowest ever daily usage was 21kwh in June. Now in Oct it is 36kwh on a warm day, and up to 82kwh on a cold day when I charge the car (30kwh Leaf) as well. I winter can go up to 120 kwh/day.
I pay and sell (11Kw solar panels) electricity by the hour at the wholesale rate (plus a bit for the supplier) . Need a lot of battery to cover day to night, and not worth it at present due to the way tax is applies to our export solar. (I get about 5p from the taxman for every Kwh I export).
Heating and hot water is mainly gas here at the moment.
our government is trying to push us onto heat pumps and such by raising the gas prices to get us to move to fully electric and guess what will happen the electric prices will magically shoot up also just like forcing petrol prices up to force everyone to get an electric car
@@garethwilliams2147 But electric will be much cheaper at night, unlike petrol.
Didn't someone blow up their Tesla car with dynamite because of how much it was going to cost to replace battery out of warranty. I think it was in the region of 20k if I remember. I'm in no rush to buy into electric that's for sure
I have two questions for you. 1, what is the extra cost for the dual tariff and what is the life of the battery and inverter? I think these must both be factored in the cost savings and payback.
@@danielwake7621 Thanks Daniel, I was referring to the difference in standing charge.
Standing charge differences are negligible between almost all tariffs. At most 5p per day.
@@AdrianColes that negligible amount I pay each yr for a standing charge, if it’s not an issue care to pay for mine?
No idea on life of givnergy, however I have a Tesla Powerwall 2 and Solar Edge inverter. The inverter has an expected life of 20 yrs+. The Tesla battery is guaranteed to have 80% capacity after 10yrs and is predicted to past at least 20yrs. To be fair the rate tech is moving, you may want to upgrade the system before then anyway, who knows
Don't forget that batteries need to be replaced every 8 to 10 years! (Unless you rarely use them) Yes, in 10 years they will be cheaper.. As a solar installer, my experience is that payback time is about 80% of the life of the batteries - very little savings! The best reason for a battery is food protection during blackouts (which are going to increase dramatically!)
If you’re an installer I’d be worried quite frankly if that’s what you think.
The warranty is 10 years and lifespan 20+ years.
@@ElectricVehicleMan 20 years is a fantasy! My very expensive battery is noticeably down on capacity after just 5 years. I asked about a Powerwall, two installers said I would not get more than 10 years out of them.
@@lisakelly984 How do you explain the warranty being 10 years? (End of warranty, like a car, doesn’t mean end of life!)
The 20+ figure is coming from GivEnergy themselves.
You’ve either got cheap batteries or there’s something wrong. 5 years clearly is the fantasy purely because of the warranty. Which the Powerwall also shares.
Maybe use a different installer next time?
While I would debate whether the price of electricity will ever go down (because solar and wind are already dirt cheap and can literally only ever get cheaper to produce) it is abundantly clear that home batteries make economic sense for those who can afford it and political sense in terms of reinforcing the grid and helping nations with energy independence from tinpot regimes like Russia.
This is what I have been thinking for a long time and one of my idea is to drive my 2015 24KW leaf for some time and keep the battery for home purpose and get rid of the car. I am on 5.5p for 5 hours and it makes tones of sense having a home battery.
Ordered givenergy battery with 3.6kw solar two weeks ago for this very reason: the numbers work now and are likely to be covered in a 5 year payback as my heating/hot water is ashp.
The use of LFP battery cells and UPS feature are underrated aspects of givenergy.
Nice make sure you read the manufacture instructions carefully, to get your warranty.
Oh much did you pay for the installed system? We have ASHP & our first proper month was £180 of electricity for all the power usage in the house
@@rossbrown9967 7k and like you was expensive at first, but got some more rads installed, lowered the output temp, changed the sterilisation to nightrate and insulated a bit better.
Still expensive, but this house doesn't have any gas, so anything else is expensive!
@@rossbrown9967 £180 and September was a warm month. I can offer a recommendation, try to heat the ASHP to charge your heating system durning the day when temps are above 5, after temps drop below this COP drops like a stone. Could you say how you are using the ASHP.
As far as i can tell you must have an EV to get these tariffs, i really to do the maths as im not sure it would be cost effective for myself, we are a family of 5 with no gas, my background usage is around 12kW a day, let alone cooking, heating (i haven'teven included this in my consideration as my heatpump is using some power at present), washing etc. I think the EV will help offset some of the cost as long as i don't have to drive long distances everyday as 4 hours will not charge the car. I also have givenergy 8.2kW battery, i think to make this work for me I'd need another battery and i just don't know the saving is there.
It all comes down to the price differential. I think with the increase in EV's 5p/kWh won't last, however, there will still likely be variable rates just at variable times each day. Key thing will be the battery talking to the supplier and knowing when those times are each day. Is yours wired to still power your home during a power cut - that would be an added bonus.
I totally agree. EVM's premise is only sustainable if this differential exists in the future. My guess is that by 2/3 years that differential will be massively reduced and his payback period is going to be the life of the battery.
Also we’re shutting a lot of nuclear capacity in the next 5 years, cheap overnight (every night) is really a legacy of coal and nuclear generation
@@edc1569 you realise Hinckley C is about to open. We haven't burnt much coal in the last 10 years. By charging an ev at night your taking pressure of the base load to the grid can stay at 50hrz.
@@edc1569 Simply not true. Cheap overnight electricity exists, because factories are closed and people in bed. Most nuclear was off during the pandemic and cheap power still existed. Turbines often generate lots at night.
@@AgileMcGuire but we’re meant to be weaning ourselves off of the old generation model towards more renewables, my comment relates to the future where generation availability is going to be much more important. Of course on average overnight energy will be cheaper, but not 5, or 6 times cheaper!
I have exactly that Give Energy system and I agree with your numbers. I had to wait 4 months to get the battery as it was on back order but the other kit was installed with the solar in July
The pay back time is one thing but I look at it as the rate of return I was getting on the cash v the savings I get from the panels & battery - ten times greater at least.
Of course it all depends on the cheap night rate - if that goes then it all falls apart financially!
I charge the home battery and EV up at night in the winter so after 4.40 the battery starts to supply the house and then the solar kicks in to first supply the house and then charge the battery. Late evening the battery has gone and I import a couple of hours at full rate, more if has been a really dull day.
In the summer I will use the solar to charge the car during the day although I need to heat a swimming pool so that can use all of the solar (Throttled to 6kW)
I don't have any fancy load management stuff because I'm not sure if it would pay back ? Any tips for what makes sense would be appreciated? GiveEnergy said they are going to have something that will send any spare solar to the EV rather than the grid but how that would wake up the car I'm not sure?
I admit that I love looking at my data and graphs on the GiveEnergy site but my obsession with minimising export will no doubt pass!
(I also got a SolarEdge Inverter to optimise the panels and the app also gives loads of interesting data! )
Good video, have you seen octopus clause 6 or 7 that only ev owners will now get the go tarriffs. Do you think that is due to battery systems ?
@@danielwake7621 No idea but they have put it in there now for new customers. Check out 'The EV puzzle' channel and he highlighted it in a recent video
Only just caught your video on recommended and I'm glad I did. As you very well know prices have gone up my night rate is going to be 15.530 and day 78.240 then 35.530 after first kW used. But I've been looking into the portable batteries as I'm in housing association property and your video is going to be most useful. And is now telling me I should definitely consider buying them.
Great video. Thank you. Any idea how long the battery lasts, if it can be replaced and how much that would cost please?
Great you will be able to sleep soundly on a nightime knowing you have done the smart thing!
I bought a 5kWp solar array and battery with about 4.8kWh useable capacity in May 2019. I missed out on the good FIT rates but I did get in before VAT went from 5 to 20%.
In July and August my energy bill, including gas for hot water, is zero or negative because the battery is topped up off cheap rate electricity before 04:30 and runs the house before sunrise, then the battery is charged by mid morning, solar power heats the water and then exported electricity pays for the standing order and offsets the off-peak usage, the battery then runs the house until about 23:00.
Apart from the period from mid november to mid feb when insolation is quite poor, my electricity bill is much reduced.
I will get an additional battery pack at some point but shortages means prices are high at the moment.
The opportunity cost of investing some of my savings in solar/battery was fairly low as interest rates are poor, but the break-even on the solar is accelerating as electricity costs rise, so I anticipate it being a good investment even the battery is only guaranteed for 10 years worth of daily cycling. I also think that if you can afford it even if he payback is marginal, then you are doing the planet a favour by cutting co2 emissions.
Hi EVM, I did an even better financial deal. I bought TSLA shares in September - awesome!
I did these numbers beginning of May, and I was looking for the optimum battery size, I found for my household, it was a 5kWh battery. This assumed zero export opportunities which is true for Octopus go. Any battery bigger than this yielded very marginal increases in savings.
However, what I found was that when I changed the equation from Go to Agile tariff, bigger batteries could essentially be used to supply your household needs, and any charge left over could be exported at the expensive part of the day. As a result, the marginal value of having a bigger battery was much better (assuming minor battery degradation - LFP batteries would be suited for this, but NMC batteries wouldn’t).
With smaller batteries look very carefully at how much power they can supply, a smaller battery, generally, cannot fully support your use of high power appliances leading to use of grid power at expensive times of day.
@@edwyncorteen1527 yes, and also bigger batteries are better for blackout conditions. That’s not a regular feature right now, but blackouts cost in terms of lost income, spoiled food etc…so the value of a bigger battery can often be justified in terms of such avoided losses.
What is the calcylation look like when you calcylate the size on the battery?? I plann in like two years probably install solar with battery.
I use like 120 kwh a day in winter and 40 in summer in average.
My GivEnergy 16.8 kWh system with double inverter is all ordered. Lead time of a couple of months though!!!
Great video. But Octopus Go now seems to be enforcing the requirement to have an EV to be on the tariff. Are you aware of any other suppliers with similar tariffs that don't require an EV?
Hi Pablo
I work in the solar industry supplying and installing panels myself, I would say pretty much every single customer of mine are putting themselves on octopus go and just yesterday one of them did sign up with go
If you have solar and a Tesla battery installed, you can go on Octopus Tesla tariff which currently is 11p per kW any time of day to buy or sell back to the grid. Yes the outlay is going to be much more expensive than this example, however the cost savings could be huge if energy prices carry on going up.
Octopus Tesla tariff will be great if you have an EV.
Another cracking video -- I feel much enlightened. Just about to make the switch to an EV so this makes even more sense.
Great video! How long do these batteries last for before they need replacing?
My guess would be 3000 cycles to 80% capacity, 6000 cycles to 50%. So after about 8 years your battery will no longer store 8kwh but closer to 6.4 kwh. By 16 years it'll store about 4kwh. I have not seen the specs of the batteries, this is just a guess based on general lifespan of lithium batteries.
@@markdee3506 I was always under the impression that lithium batteries could only be charged approximately 1000 times which means that after 3 years the batteries would be in pretty poor condition. Maybe EV batteries are much better than these batteries but it's essential to know before considering a purchase. Some EV batteries come with a warranty which I would expect this system would need also. I am interested in this idea but I'm unsure it's going to pay.
@@mikemorley2797 1000 cycles is closer to what a cellphone battery gets (not designed to last long), and it is still usable after 1000 cycles, just with reduced capacity. For example Pylontech warranty their battery's for 7 extended to 10 years, >6000 cycles and no less than 60% capacity remaining. So it would be usable for at least 16 years.. If you can pay it off in 5 years then you are making money for 10 years before they need replacing. I haven't researched all in one charger/inverter batteries so I can't recommend any. Find some that people have had for a few years and done some capacity tests after a year or two and work out how long they would last from their degradation.
@@mikemorley2797 or check out DIY Solar Power with Will Prowse on UA-cam and build your own.
@@markdee3506 thanks for that information I will.
This video convinced me to get home battery storage, thanks. I went for the Growatt battery 6.5KWH as there was a 6-month wait for the GivEnergy. Prices have gone up a lot as this system cost me £4600. It's been 1 month I have saved £40-50 on the energy bill using Octopus Go. It is a no-brainer.
Do you need to have an E V to get the tariff on Octopus Go
@@stephendavies3111 Hi Stephen. I have an EV on order arriving in April and Octopus was ok with that (allowed me to use the Tariff). They might require you to provide confirmation of the order number. I was never asked for the order number at any time when I applied for the tariff.
Do you charge your battery up to 100% every night? Just wondering if that’s optimal as the solar panels could top it up during the day.
You change depending on what is expected. Some systems will do that automatically by looking into the weather forecasts for the next day! Other systems just mean you do it manually and its just about changing it between seasons. You move between a self consumption method to a time of use method generally in the winter. In the summer self-consumption will generally do better to avoid waste to the grid.
Nice, I'm years away from buying a house but this is going to be part of my plan as soon as I do
Thanks for that presentation. Very useful. I have been planning to do some research on it for some time - but you have covered all the basics. Givenergy site confirmed a few details that I thought essential. The battery you are using has a battery management system that prevents discharge below 15% and prevents charging above 95%, so the 8.2kw battery has a usable capacity of 6.56kWh but you can cycle between these values on a daily basis for 10 years plus. A domestic user may not need to do a full cycle every day, so that average life of this battery should be much longer. Even with this battery it is still worth setting the washing machine to come on in the night time cheap rate.
Are you sure that's correct? GiveEnergy claim a depth of discharge of 100%. This is based on the fact that the battery itself is actually bigger than the stated capacity (eg more like 10kw for an 8,2kw battery) so that they can still claim a 100% DoD on the published capacity.
But looking in more detail at my Octopus Energy bill, I use 10 kWh per day at peak rate 16p/kWh for my Go tariff at the moment. I would need two 8Kwh batteries to shift that to the 5 p rate. I couldn't find the maximum charge rate or charge curve for these batteries so I don't know if they will charge from 0% to 100% in the 4 hour period available on the GO tariff. If they can do this then I would save 11p / kWh or £1.10 a day, or £400 a year ( with two batteries ) That is a break even of well over 10 years. I will look again at what I am paying when my fixed rates end next year. But even a doubling of peak rate charges would give rather a long break even time. Note also that there are energy losses in the process of grid to battery and battery to house consumption and it would be useful to know what percentage of losses are.
@@dartmoorrambler round trip losses are approx 10% (5% each way)
@@dartmoorrambler It would be also very useful to know how much power you can drain at any time from batteries, it might just be that you can only have a washing machine on and everything else switch off so it does not need help from the grid. Also what's the actual cost of installation and hardware needed? it's not like you just slap some batteries into the system and of you go there is need of some sort high capacity cables and inverter. your point with fast charge in 4 hours windows is also good one, from what we all know fast charge reduce life of batteries...
Following your earlier video recommendation, I have installed a GivEnergy system with 12 pv panels and currently a 5 kWh battery, 8.2 kWh awaited when they are in the country. I would be very interested to see how you have set your app up to charge your battery and car from the 5p rate during the 4 hour slot. Great videos by the way. Thanks.
Use Mode 3 and set your Go time window to avoid draining from the battery while charging the car during the cheap hours.
I was quoted about £4200 plus vat to add a 8.2kwh givenergy battery plus inverter to my existing solar system. My calculations (using Octopus Go tariff) showed a payback time of about 11 years, so for me I decided not to go ahead with it. Which is a shame. It would help if government changed vat to 5% imho but probably would still make payback time for me at about 10 years. TX for very useful and informative video.
What is the round trip efficiency of the Giv Energy battery?
Give energy say 92.5% in and 85% out so 78.6% "round trip" - which seems to be a bit low to me as my car does 85 to 90 %. Maybe the Give Energy 85% is a cumulative figure??
My work has a 1mw Tesla battery pack quite impressive to see they use it to keep the hz steady
I didn't think you were going to mention about taking taking your battery system with you when moving house but you did Lol
I think its a huge selling point that you can invest in battery storage and know you don't not have to leave it behind.
Informative video. 12 months ago I added a Tesla power wall to my 8 year old Solar p/v array. I couldn’t believe the difference, and I agree battery first.
I would say a battery with a loan to purchase will still give a reasonable payback.and then a substantially reduced electric bill. And there are so many batteries coming onto the market.
Your research and findings are consistent with what we have found/installed/advised our customers on. Each individual case is different and not everyone can get the same rates and/or install a battery but as a generalization this is supported.
I have one customer that already does this with a Tesla Powerwall and 3kw solar array on Economy 7. Effectively even if they buy in at the night rate they can sell during the day - which with Octupus is exactly what they do during peak times. It has paid itself off in the last 3 years.
On the other side we have a former customer with a 7kw solar array, no battery storage, on Economy 10 with Electric heating (formerly electric central heating, now an ashp). The customers extended family realized a battery on E10 or swapping to E7 would be more beneficial with their solar installation when doing their research, but instead opted for a grant for ashp and has unfortunately would not have made any savings without the grant.
Thanks for the info.. I think soon we'll be looking at a solar Panel array and a battery system.. Here in Mid-East France we have a lot of sun from March -December but January and February are often freezing fog...
The off peak tarrif is 8 heures here rather than the 4 hours in the UK.. Best off peak tarrif I've seen is about 10p and peak 15p... So not as cheap as the UK but not as expensive on peak times...
Our home is very energy efficient as we constructed in 2018 and we went way past the legal standards... Of course like anything else prices have gone up for energy.. Not sure they'll go as high as you suggest or there will be civil unrest if people start to get very cold..
We haven't purchased an EV but no doubt will.. I like the Toyota BZ4X because I can trust Toyota for service and reliability.. Downside is the range is about 450km/280 miles so not up there with the very best.. .. I do think that Toyota range figures are more true than most of the competitors. We have off road parking etc..
Interesting times..
Hi I have been enjoying your content for a while now! Thank you for this presentation, very informative! I have a couple of queries if you don’t mind helping? First off, how fast can the batteries charge? I notice a 16kw option is available, but can this size charge up in the 4 hour octopus go window? Secondly, if my car is charging at the same time, are charging rates going to be slower on both? Thanks in advance.
I got my 8.2 kWh givenergy battery from 4% to 100% in the octopus go window last night. It's currently at 45% (it got topped up during the day with solar, but it was a miserable day here). I've only had it up and running a few days so am still getting into the swing of things. For example, I'm gonna be charging the car up tonight alongside the home battery. I'm not sure what the throttle on input to the house would be to charge both in the octopus go window. I'll know tomorrow
I believe that the system has a 3.2kw invertor. In theory, ou can charge and discharge at that rate. So that should mean you can go from flat to full in under 3 hours on the 8.2kw battery. (Not accounting for losses).
If you doubled up to 16.4kw it would make sense to add a second invertor, which would give you a 6kw charge/discharge rate.
@@airevalleyclassics The max charge/discharge rate on the GiveEnergy system (from the battery on it'sown) is 2800W. It can go up to 5000w if you have PV creating energy at the same time. GiveEnergy are planning on releasing a 2nd generation in spring '22 which is likely to have a higher max charge/discharge rate.
So, in summary and in theory, the 8.2 kw battery should charge in about 3 hours. To charge up a 16kw system in the same time would require a second inverter.
Got the Alpha ESS 3kwh with 2 3kwh expansions for 8.7kwh usable. Got it installed for £4000. My only thoughts on your man maths is the round trip efficiency is about 90% you lose 10% in the charging and discharging. And adding solar helps you get through the day. Can reduce the daytime use to 0.3kwh in my case. 0.3kwh is due to the 5 second reaction for the battery to "spin up" and takeover the grid draw.
I went onto one of the council schemes, said my south facing roof needed at least a 6kw system , but it would only generate 1.7 kw which made it a pointless investment
Great video. Wouldn't it be great if V2G technology was more advanced. Imagine having a 30 to 50kWh battery to draw on with only a V2G charge point needed.
V2G would solve a lot of problems but also kill a lot of other parties who make £££ elsewhere which is why I suspect it won't move quickly for a while - but yes having a moveable xxkWh battery makes a lot of sense either for powering a house, car, the grid or whatever - energy sources/stores need to be re-thought of as being flexible rather than 'stuck' to the thing they came with or were installed in!