I totally agree with Darren. The principles of permaculture are very useful tools who guides you through the problems and solutions so that you can built up experiences that makes you understanding nature and other things. The experience is different for everybody so the experience is for everybodie a different truth. For example. I learned the principles of ayurvedic massage and my experiences with these principles, I developed my own unique massage.
The greatest musicians always lead in by saying something like, "this is an old one by T-Bone Walker" or "Here's one from Muddy Waters" they always give credit and guide one to the roots and the source. Great teachers work in the same way, as demonstrated here. Great work fellas! Keep it up.
Very interesting conversation. I just took the PDC course with Geoff Lawton. He talked to us about experimation & developing new practices. Maybe the butting heads had an impact IDK. But anyway, I could foresee that people would be locked in to a mold & not open thinkers. I saw this displayed with other classmates with the questions the would ask. They wanted a color by numbers approach as opposed to applying principles & see what product arises......keep gathering ideas & information, applying them & keep tweaking the process.
7:22 Permaculture is NOT a toolbox. It is a way of thinking and acting that USES a toolbox AFTER a very delibarate and long design process. OR observations are made / lucky accidents are observed, and they are tweaked. So there is not the intention in the beginning, but as soon as to potential is observed the thinking and designing starts. It AIMS to imitate natural ecosystems to get the kind of synergies, and efficiencies that are possible in natural systems. Permaculture puts a major, major emphasis on observation, design. And only then come the tools. A permaculturist that has understood the principles should be more open to even notice lucky accidents compared to other gardeners, farmers, homesteaders. Observing, imitating, tweaking is part of the process. I know people that have a mound from the dug out material for basements. The top soil is kept for when they are ready (DIY and Brick and mortar buildings so it takes a while). Often they have a provisory garden on the mound, it is well known that these are highly productive (in the temperate climate zone) and the mound happens to be the most practical way to store the soil. They never make the link to continue with the observation - after construction is finished, they make the real garden and then they get the flat setup again. Sure that may be the most practical solution. But it is not like they even think about sticking with what works, they fall back on _conventional_ solutions, they are only excused to grow food in an unusual form because they obviously cannot make an "orderly" garden during construction. No time, trucks are coming, space is needed, etc. Conventional farmers also have this built in back on conventional practices, even IF they do not work well for them, they often do more of the same and double down. There is alos a lot of fear of being viewed as "weird" and not having an orderly farm / garden that is run in a "respecatble" manner. That is a major motivator to not disgress a bit from how everyone elose does things. So they do not notice the lucky accieents even if they bite them in the behind. Or it is noticed - but it does not compute that one could build on that, use that in the future, etc. Takota Coen put some duck weed in a little pond (or it got there) and noticed the chickens ate that. Then he did some research. Stoff is not only harmless, it is very nutrient rich. Robust, likes shallow water, low osygeny, must have nutrients. Not letting manure getting into the pond was the initial plan. Well - duck weed needs a lot of nutrients, so he changed it so that usually rain will wash some form the corall into ti. The work area is a hub with a soike system, that is inusal (the poind is part of it) and it works well. The advantage of Takota figuring out duck weed as power food for pigs and chickens. NOW every human on the planet can follow him or can put energy into tweaking it for their region, they know it is successful in Canada, the duckweed grows everywhere on the planet, so it is worth the while to experiment around, this _should_ be possible to imitate ot to tweak. Design means the pwoer of information. And that is someting we cAN scale up. David Holmgren: Agriculture is 1) people doing hard work (that was the case the last 10,000 years, many were bitterly poor peasants, slaves, serfs, ....) 2) or use of machines (capital) & fossil fuel & practices that harm the soil, water, animals, even consumers, and are not sustainable over 100 years. That started big time after WW2, and we see the fallout now. 3) or using design and information. That is permaculture. If you can unleash the effienciy wins of natural systems and synergies you do not have to slave away AND the yiels will be high enough to feed the world AND provide a comfortable income. Information can be scaled up w/o a lot of costs and w/o draining natural resources and destroying habitat.
No matter what comes along someone or groups of people will try to turn it in to a earner and then the movement will change from what it first begun ..... No matter how a person gets into world care as long as they keep it up is what matters ,no matter what it's called
In my understanding, permaculture at its core is a set of ethics. I'm not sure what's left when you strip out the ethics. If regrarianism is permaculture sans ethics, what does that even mean?
No. It still has the ethics, it is just far more elegantly organized and actualized using the KSOP and HDM to guide the process. HDM is a brilliant practical implementation of the ethics.
I did yoga and i think that some part of the teaching of this sort of discipline is to provoke questions, so that the person develops their own ideas. It is not like teaching monks, a situation in which you want good servants not independent thinkers. FOr me an example of why people have different goals is this. that i did not have the same charitable goals as cahtolics, I was lonely on ocasions at some schools and also I am a woman and a lot of a woman traditional role is to stop members of the family feeling alone to talk to them whether you want to talk or not so that i would rather work trying to accompany people than to work to stop poverty,.You can't give time to talking to people and organise a diner say, or also spend time trying to get money. THe religous are much worse than heroine addicts in as far as all they want is money all their minds are consumed by the search for funds and people can go swing. People have different personal stories they cannot give the same importance to things their neighbour does.
The appropriation isn’t just boring, it is dishonest and undermines people's ability to study lineage of the development of important concepts and principles.
Darrel dougherty You talk of imposed ethics and of the Pope and Jesuits and such, so iIsuppose you are Catholic, my own cradle faith. When i was a child i was taught by nuns and my family about Jesus who was so extremely nice and then, in adult life I met catholic militants who started to re-indoctrinate me and I spent years listening to them though i did not entirely agree with anything they said i wanted to see here they would come out.Apart from not agreeing with them they scared me, I was scared by the way they dodged talking of a lot of stituations which might put in doubt their arguments for the importance of this or that principal of their own. I thought i am being brain washed, help!, is it possible that i will forget all these other considerations? I thought they would not try this on if it had not worked with other people. It might seem silly but the idea that they might be able to wipe my memory clean terrified me. I was brought up when the Soviet Union still existed and so did a lot of Faschist countries, so, when brainwashing was extremely feared and criticised. They also did their best to make Buddhism look silly by twisting their arguments to make a peaceful attitude to things loook silly. That calm that gives you more energy to do things they tried to make look sillly. That is people who at first gave the impression that they liked other religons started to subtley try to do for ideas that the church does not like by lying about them and they pretend taht other religons dumb you down rather than make you awake to everything around you all while they areru=efusing to talk of so much while they are trying to dumb you down. They also used coercion. They were always demanding, sort of confessions, they were not priests in a confessonal. Demanding that you admit to bad motives for every deed, which demands seemed to be designed to clean my soul, but which demands have a secondary effect on the victims, which is, that if they think that badly of you, then presumibly they will communicate their ideas on you to all and sundry and you are going to look so awful ,no one will talk to you. So this demand for coming clean, works to coerce you or would if I allowed coercion,.It just scared me silly and i wonder if scaring.... people was not their true goal. The Inquisition is still in the church but physical torture has become verbal abuse. Making victims deny themselves is part of brainwashing technics, which are easy to look up on the internet. If a person can be brought to deny they ever had good motives for their charitable and disciplined deeds, then a logical conclusion is that the education their families and schools gave was bad, so denying yourself ,serves sects because when you do deny yourself, they can say, "You see, you should follow our alternative methods, those you have been using are lousey and wrong, dont work you have no alternative but to follow us. I am sure, I am not the only person who has suffered from such abuse and in my case, in part under the pretext that they would make me consider more options because they thought i was confining myself to the ideas of yoga so they pretended to open up my mind while they closed it down or tried to, while they were so narrowing down all possible themes in our conversation. That is to say, not just people teaching ine set of ideas instead of encouraging their victims to think, not teaching a sert of ideas for thinking for those who desire a clear map of instructions to follow, it is people teaching who are hedging in the conversation and useing coercion. They also make it plain they will isolate you if you are not with them, because you are a danger to others, heretics dont go to heaven they seem to think. , Saint Augustine turned the story of the good samaritan into a parable that turned iits meaning on its head. He was the r=very devil and people who think the church is christs are really following saint augustine about whom they know very little. . i thought they were treating me like a woman who has never been educated and could not believe they would so refuse to discuss things, analyse or research the things they said, but I ended up thinking that they were the people with no education who did not use deductive faculties or argue things through. If they can fake a miracle in order to leave you too gob smacked to use your critical faculties any more, scared that you are indeed conversing with Gods messangers. Have you Darrel Dougherty suffered from this sort of behaviour? Catholics are getting more and more third world, they are really frightening and medieval, it is time people exposed their one to one underground teaching methods.
Darren Dougherty. I read and loved your stuff i liked the idea that if you put too much cow muck on a field then the grass roots did not grow down far and so did not better the soil to any depth. What i really want is just to use you to maybe propagate an idea of my own for cooling the earth which is to stop it warming up so. we know about islands of heat in towns, how so much masonary heats up in hte day and looses heat at night so that towns dont cool down at night, well, in ht esame So much ground is left in the sun because fields are ploughed to prepare for Autumn planting or left fallow, from China to England and so on across the world, which means that earth, a good accumulator of heat, as good as bricks according to Bill Mollisons book so that if we could stop people leavign the earth bare make them leave stubble maybe grow wheat with longer stalks again even, the earth would not heat up half as much as it does.
Darren has his head on straight. I like his perspective. It would be nice to see him write a book about the Regrarian Principles.
I totally agree with Darren. The principles of permaculture are very useful tools who guides you through the problems and solutions so that you can built up experiences that makes you understanding nature and other things. The experience is different for everybody so the experience is for everybodie a different truth.
For example. I learned the principles of ayurvedic massage and my experiences with these principles, I developed my own unique massage.
The greatest musicians always lead in by saying something like, "this is an old one by T-Bone Walker" or "Here's one from Muddy Waters" they always give credit and guide one to the roots and the source. Great teachers work in the same way, as demonstrated here. Great work fellas! Keep it up.
Very interesting conversation. I just took the PDC course with Geoff Lawton. He talked to us about experimation & developing new practices. Maybe the butting heads had an impact IDK. But anyway, I could foresee that people would be locked in to a mold & not open thinkers. I saw this displayed with other classmates with the questions the would ask. They wanted a color by numbers approach as opposed to applying principles & see what product arises......keep gathering ideas & information, applying them & keep tweaking the process.
I couldn't agree more with you, Darren. We don't need more splits. We need to converge and refine based on our collective specialties.
Interesting stuff. Glad I found it. I looked up Darren Doherty after hearing his name from a Joel Salatin interview.
7:22 Permaculture is NOT a toolbox. It is a way of thinking and acting that USES a toolbox AFTER a very delibarate and long design process.
OR observations are made / lucky accidents are observed, and they are tweaked. So there is not the intention in the beginning, but as soon as to potential is observed the thinking and designing starts. It AIMS to imitate natural ecosystems to get the kind of synergies, and efficiencies that are possible in natural systems. Permaculture puts a major, major emphasis on observation, design.
And only then come the tools.
A permaculturist that has understood the principles should be more open to even notice lucky accidents compared to other gardeners, farmers, homesteaders.
Observing, imitating, tweaking is part of the process.
I know people that have a mound from the dug out material for basements. The top soil is kept for when they are ready (DIY and Brick and mortar buildings so it takes a while). Often they have a provisory garden on the mound, it is well known that these are highly productive (in the temperate climate zone) and the mound happens to be the most practical way to store the soil. They never make the link to continue with the observation - after construction is finished, they make the real garden and then they get the flat setup again. Sure that may be the most practical solution. But it is not like they even think about sticking with what works, they fall back on _conventional_ solutions, they are only excused to grow food in an unusual form because they obviously cannot make an "orderly" garden during construction.
No time, trucks are coming, space is needed, etc.
Conventional farmers also have this built in back on conventional practices, even IF they do not work well for them, they often do more of the same and double down. There is alos a lot of fear of being viewed as "weird" and not having an orderly farm / garden that is run in a "respecatble" manner. That is a major motivator to not disgress a bit from how everyone elose does things.
So they do not notice the lucky accieents even if they bite them in the behind. Or it is noticed - but it does not compute that one could build on that, use that in the future, etc.
Takota Coen put some duck weed in a little pond (or it got there) and noticed the chickens ate that. Then he did some research. Stoff is not only harmless, it is very nutrient rich. Robust, likes shallow water, low osygeny, must have nutrients. Not letting manure getting into the pond was the initial plan. Well - duck weed needs a lot of nutrients, so he changed it so that usually rain will wash some form the corall into ti.
The work area is a hub with a soike system, that is inusal (the poind is part of it) and it works well. The advantage of Takota figuring out duck weed as power food for pigs and chickens. NOW every human on the planet can follow him or can put energy into tweaking it for their region, they know it is successful in Canada, the duckweed grows everywhere on the planet, so it is worth the while to experiment around, this _should_ be possible to imitate ot to tweak.
Design means the pwoer of information. And that is someting we cAN scale up.
David Holmgren: Agriculture is
1) people doing hard work (that was the case the last 10,000 years, many were bitterly poor peasants, slaves, serfs, ....)
2) or use of machines (capital) & fossil fuel & practices that harm the soil, water, animals, even consumers, and are not sustainable over 100 years. That started big time after WW2, and we see the fallout now.
3) or using design and information. That is permaculture. If you can unleash the effienciy wins of natural systems and synergies you do not have to slave away AND the yiels will be high enough to feed the world AND provide a comfortable income.
Information can be scaled up w/o a lot of costs and w/o draining natural resources and destroying habitat.
No matter what comes along someone or groups of people will try to turn it in to a earner and then the movement will change from what it first begun .....
No matter how a person gets into world care as long as they keep it up is what matters ,no matter what it's called
In my understanding, permaculture at its core is a set of ethics. I'm not sure what's left when you strip out the ethics. If regrarianism is permaculture sans ethics, what does that even mean?
No. It still has the ethics, it is just far more elegantly organized and actualized using the KSOP and HDM to guide the process. HDM is a brilliant practical implementation of the ethics.
I did yoga and i think that some part of the teaching of this sort of discipline is to provoke questions, so that the person develops their own ideas. It is not like teaching monks, a situation in which you want good servants not independent thinkers. FOr me an example of why people have different goals is this. that i did not have the same charitable goals as cahtolics, I was lonely on ocasions at some schools and also I am a woman and a lot of a woman traditional role is to stop members of the family feeling alone to talk to them whether you want to talk or not so that i would rather work trying to accompany people than to work to stop poverty,.You can't give time to talking to people and organise a diner say, or also spend time trying to get money. THe religous are much worse than heroine addicts in as far as all they want is money all their minds are consumed by the search for funds and people can go swing. People have different personal stories they cannot give the same importance to things their neighbour does.
The appropriation isn’t just boring, it is dishonest and undermines people's ability to study lineage of the development of important concepts and principles.
Darrel dougherty You talk of imposed ethics and of the Pope and Jesuits and such, so iIsuppose you are Catholic, my own cradle faith. When i was a child i was taught by nuns and my family about Jesus who was so extremely nice and then, in adult life I met catholic militants who started to re-indoctrinate me and I spent years listening to them though i did not entirely agree with anything they said i wanted to see here they would come out.Apart from not agreeing with them they scared me, I was scared by the way they dodged talking of a lot of stituations which might put in doubt their arguments for the importance of this or that principal of their own. I thought i am being brain washed, help!, is it possible that i will forget all these other considerations? I thought they would not try this on if it had not worked with other people.
It might seem silly but the idea that they might be able to wipe my memory clean terrified me. I was brought up when the Soviet Union still existed and so did a lot of Faschist countries, so, when brainwashing was extremely feared and criticised.
They also did their best to make Buddhism look silly by twisting their arguments to make a peaceful attitude to things loook silly. That calm that gives you more energy to do things they tried to make look sillly. That is people who at first gave the impression that they liked other religons started to subtley try to do for ideas that the church does not like by lying about them and they pretend taht other religons dumb you down rather than make you awake to everything around you all while they areru=efusing to talk of so much while they are trying to dumb you down.
They also used coercion. They were always demanding, sort of confessions, they were not priests in a confessonal. Demanding that you admit to bad motives for every deed, which demands seemed to be designed to clean my soul, but which demands have a secondary effect on the victims, which is, that if they think that badly of you, then presumibly they will communicate their ideas on you to all and sundry and you are going to look so awful ,no one will talk to you. So this demand for coming clean, works to coerce you or would if I allowed coercion,.It just scared me silly and i wonder if scaring.... people was not their true goal. The Inquisition is still in the church but physical torture has become verbal abuse.
Making victims deny themselves is part of brainwashing technics, which are easy to look up on the internet. If a person can be brought to deny they ever had good motives for their charitable and disciplined deeds, then a logical conclusion is that the education their families and schools gave was bad, so denying yourself ,serves sects because when you do deny yourself, they can say, "You see, you should follow our alternative methods, those you have been using are lousey and wrong, dont work you have no alternative but to follow us.
I am sure, I am not the only person who has suffered from such abuse and in my case, in part under the pretext that they would make me consider more options because they thought i was confining myself to the ideas of yoga so they pretended to open up my mind while they closed it down or tried to, while they were so narrowing down all possible themes in our conversation. That is to say, not just people teaching ine set of ideas instead of encouraging their victims to think, not teaching a sert of ideas for thinking for those who desire a clear map of instructions to follow, it is people teaching who are hedging in the conversation and useing coercion.
They also make it plain they will isolate you if you are not with them, because you are a danger to others, heretics dont go to heaven they seem to think. , Saint Augustine turned the story of the good samaritan into a parable that turned iits meaning on its head. He was the r=very devil and people who think the church is christs are really following saint augustine about whom they know very little. . i thought they were treating me like a woman who has never been educated and could not believe they would so refuse to discuss things, analyse or research the things they said, but I ended up thinking that they were the people with no education who did not use deductive faculties or argue things through.
If they can fake a miracle in order to leave you too gob smacked to use your critical faculties any more, scared that you are indeed conversing with Gods messangers. Have you Darrel Dougherty suffered from this sort of behaviour? Catholics are getting more and more third world, they are really frightening and medieval, it is time people exposed their one to one underground teaching methods.
Darren Dougherty. I read and loved your stuff i liked the idea that if you put too much cow muck on a field then the grass roots did not grow down far and so did not better the soil to any depth.
What i really want is just to use you to maybe propagate an idea of my own for cooling the earth which is to stop it warming up so. we know about islands of heat in towns, how so much masonary heats up in hte day and looses heat at night so that towns dont cool down at night, well, in ht esame So much ground is left in the sun because fields are ploughed to prepare for Autumn planting or left fallow, from China to England and so on across the world, which means that earth, a good accumulator of heat, as good as bricks according to Bill Mollisons book so that if we could stop people leavign the earth bare make them leave stubble maybe grow wheat with longer stalks again even, the earth would not heat up half as much as it does.