Persian 17-tone system, a more chromatic music
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- Опубліковано 10 тра 2024
- The Persian 17-tone system is an extension of the heptatonic scale with three possible variations of the tone in each scale degree.
In this video, according to the findings of my master's thesis at McGill, using distinct colors, I briefly explain how this system works!
Also see:
• Modes and melodies in ...
DISCLAIMER #1: The selection of the colors, except for the seven natural tones, is arbitrary! I just intended to show three distinct shades of the colors.
DISCLAIMER #2: The 17-tone system that underlies Persian music is not 17-Equal-Temperament (17-ET) or 17 Equal Division of the Octave (17-EDO), since in 17-ET/17-EDO the place of fourth and fifth intervals is greatly deviated from their perfect value, which is not favorable at all in Persian music!
DISCLAIMER #3: Studying the exact amounts of the intervals in Persian music requires the nine-fold division of a whole tone, which results to a 53-Equal-Temperament (53-ET). But the point is that in practice, we can have an acceptable approximation of all these 53 tones in a neat and polished 17-tone system. If you’re interested to know more about the details, I’ve dedicated a section of my thesis to the topic of tuning and approximation.
DISCLAIMER #4: The reason for removing the (so-called devil!) Tritone interval is that it is extremely deviated from its representative in the Harmonic Series.
DISCLAIMER #5: Don't confuse 8 tetrachord genera with different Gushes in the Persian seven dastgahs!
DISCLAIMER #6: The arrangement of the tones in this system, and the Abjadic notation system connected to it is a relative-pitch system, which works like a Moveable Do! If you assign the first tone of the 17-tone system to a note different than C, you will lead to a different collection of notes.
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00:00 Introduction
00:54 Issac Newton's color-note analogy
01:35 Seven color-tones in Diatonic (natural) scale
02:38 Twelve color-tones in Chromatic scale
03:40 My Thesis
04:18 Seventeen color-tones in Persian scale
05:31 Quarter-flat / Quarter-sharp
06:15 Eight tetrachord genera in Persian music
07:20 A More-Chromatic music
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Resource:
Daemi Milani, Farzad. "Persian-Arabic Seventeen-Tone Temperament: A Microtonal Extension to the Heptatonic Scale" Master's thesis, McGill University, 2023.
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#persianmusic #persian_music #persian_dastgah #maqam #maqamat #traditionalmusic #arabicmusic #arabicmusictheory #turkishmusic
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Indonesia has 128 tones per octave. Microtonics are incredible!
Interesting
@@farzadmilani
Terry Riley and others were very influenced by it in the 70s.
Unfortunely i dont remember any western composer being influenced directly by persian music. Or even indian. Arabic a bit.
@@joaocorreia524 The Beatles and many others were Indian influenced..not sure about Persian but I'm sure some were.
@@gothfather8741 yes, i remember there was an indian craze then
@@joaocorreia524 Check out Albert Roussel's ballet-opera, Padmavati for Indian influence. Also, Krishna, the 3rd movement of Joueurs de Flute.
Superchromal music! Further extensions could be ultrachromal, hyperchromal, or other fun adjectives like mondochromal (I avoid mega, kilo, and other prefixes that imply a power of ten relationship).
Good suggestion! Thanks
❤ love superchromal
31-tet is a super cool tuning system. 31 equal distant notes gives alot of just intonated harmonies and a ton of exotic chords too
A purist might prefer 'hyperchromal', as that uses two Greek roots. If you wanted a Latinate term, it would be 'supercolorful', which is the direct equivalent of 'hyperchromal'. But instead, maybe a Persian term would be apt... any Persian speakers here to create one?
@@markop.1994 Sure it is, but in case of tetrachord-based musics like Persian, the place of perfect 4th and 5th intervals are crucial.
None of the equal temperament except for 53-EDO cannot give natural values specifically for these two.
That was amazing! Thank you so much for the insight. The chord knowledge was especially fascinating!
Thanks for your complement 🙏🏼
Your visual slide showing notes as colored circles to compare systems made so much sense ❤
Thank you for this video. I appreciated how you encouraged the treatment of the quarter flats and sharps. It reminded me of how to treat bends when playing the blues.
Thanks for your compliment. You're right, there's a link between the blue notes and middle Eastern neutral intervals.
So beautiful ! 🌄 And a nice pedagogy effort, thanks !
🙏
Awesome! Best explanation so far. I love Persian music system more than any other. Please do more videos. You've earned a new sub.
Great video, watching from Ireland 🇮🇪
Thank you
This expanded my mind as a piano tuner because it breaks out of the very rigid tuning standard equal temperament, where every note is exactly the distance apart, resulting in grey, colorless scales and intervals.
Also, Farzad and viewers, you may want to see my Theory of Pitch Psychology where I claim that our hearing is spectral, and tied emotionally to the these color energies. For example, love songs historically being constantly written in C, a note which I always associated with red (love, Valentine’s Day, etc.). C is like red, D is orange, E is yellow (a bright, flashy note), etc.
Thanks for this enlightening video!
Your, _Acoustic Rabbit Hole _
Very impressive. I'm Japanese. This reminds me the day I visited the Karate athlete who was from Iran to learn Karate in Tokyo Japan in 1980. He said that he liked the Japanese popular songs coming from TV shows because the songs he felt much sounds like Iranian songs and he remembered his home. He gave me the lyrics on paper and he sung the song by guitar on chord A minor. I still have the lyrics somewhere in my box. (I had the meal by his wife. The cucumber and yorgrt. I liked it.)
do you think the topic of this video is applicable to shamisen music? I notice the voice inflections and sound of Shamisen in Tsguru Jongara Bushi
That's interesting. I'm not familiar with far eastern music, but there should be some similarities for sure.
By the way, make sure you eat cucumber and yogourt with its special spice (Chashni). It'll taste more delicious.
@@farzadmilani Thank you Sir. I'll definitely give it a try. Your post is interesting and i'll explore more I like music although my level of understanding is limited . I was wondering how one would achieve the other tones on instruments like piano guitar. i think i see the reed instruments getting those sounds. thanks for repling I'll look at more posts
Thank you very much! Those infos are great references for me.
🙏
That was fascinating. Even at 65, I'm not too old to learn something new.
❤❤Way to go buddy...
Thank you for this explanation. I have been enjoying Persian music lately, particularly Homayoun Khoram.
That's great!
Excellent tutorial! Really informative…thx
Woah! Wonderful video, thanks for sharing
Very interesting! Thank you
Fascinating stuff, thanks.
Subscribed. Cheers from a tuning and temperament freak in Vienna, Scott
🙏
@@farzadmilani Hey, we're all in this together. Look me up if you're ever in town.
Thank you for a good introduction to the system.
Woah amazing video, you've explained it so well!
I was always wondering why I heard notes I couldn't play on my piano, makes so much sense now😂
Thanks!
🙏
I love the application of colors to tones!
very interesting, I very much like this approach, as opposed to just making different equal temperaments
I agree, ETs are pretty limiting until you get to very high values, at which point you might as well be doing free tuning anyways
Fascinating. Thank you. Subscribed
Me, colourblind: red/blue, orange, orange, orange, orange, orange, green, green, green, green, green, blue. Three notes, easy. Just like the rainbow.
No worries! You got the idea. 👍
Very cool explanation, thanks for sharing!
🙏
@@farzadmilani can you make some more content that shows examples of songs or compositions or improvisations using those scales with the microtonal notes?
It's cool because there are microtones in Blues music (why it's called Blues...the "blue" note), Soul, RnB...even metal guitar players like George Lynch bending notes...awesome to see it in other contexts like Arabic music. Would love to hear song examples to "open" my ears more to those tones I'm not so used to hearing (like the half-b 2, half-b 5 and half-b 6). Thanks!
@@Jimmy.Williams Definitely thre's a link between the blue notes and the neutral notes in Persian, Arabic, and Turkish music. Maybe I'll make a separate video about that.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge around the Persian notation system!
Yek, Do, Se, Char! :)
😅🙏
Even the attempt to explain this concept is challenging. Thank you Farzaad.
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Thank you! Very nice and useful for the musicians around the world.
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@@farzadmilani Recently I worked for Kanun sound library. Amazing instrument so far. With your help, microtonal scales have more sense to me. Good job ! Keep in touch!
@@polymoog800 I'm happy to hear that.
I'm curious to know about what you do in kanun sound library. If you're interested to chat, here's my email: farzad.milani@gmail.com
@@farzadmilani Just sent a mail. Please check the spam too 🙂
This was great, dear Farzad. Please do more videos regarding Iranian music theory.
Those of us who can think at a level beyond the simplicity of nationalist fervor have no trouble at all understanding this topic. You should try it.
@@artysanmobile Sure! Thanks for your support.
Most excellent, thank you
دمت گرم. یکی از مفیدترین ۸ دقیقه های زندگیم بود!
🙏
Thank you
Very interesting. I'm not super good in music theory, but I appreciate that someone can explain the things beyond the 12-tone chromatic stuff we are too used to hear. Also, my wife is Afghan so she has introduced me to her folkloric music which I guess follows with the 17-tone system. Big up
Thanks man. That's interesting!
First timer here. This is so good. Please make more music theory videos.
Sure! Thank you
Great video. Would love a more in depth one about what a tetrachord is and why it is significant and some real life examples. Well done agha!
Mokhles 🙏 Don't miss my next video then!
Subscribed!
Interesting video. I know nothing about Persian music, but this taught me a little.
Nice. There are six Persian tunings built in to the free VST "Microtone 5000." Same with "Simple Microtonal Sampler." Works in most DAWs.
It makes a lot of sense because in the case of both sound waves and light waves, the frequency affects the subjective experience and, at least in music (as I understand it?) the mathematical relationships between frequencies influence or dictate how notes sound together.
Yes, but there're some scholars who criticise the whole concept of color-note analogy being arbitrary!
Thanks! As a musician from a western kind of civilization, this topic interests me very much.
So, it would be very helpful to also add some examples, as well as suggestions regarding what artists could we check.
Thanks again! 👍
Sure! I'll make more videos with a lot of musical examples. 🙏
Wow that was very interesting!
🙏
Thank You. You clear lot of doubts in my head. Can you make a videos explaining all the Maqams ?
I'm glad to hear that! For sure I'll do.
@@farzadmilani Thank You. Very Excited for the next video.
Awesome video
🙏
I'd call this Poly Chromatic.
Very good video,thankyou for sharing
It seems a more appropriate word. Thanks!
Isnt polychromatic already a musical system where they use pitch color to create music? It's used to try and standardize many different scale and music types. Trying to make a universal notation using color.
Great video! Where can we read more about the 8 tetrachords? It’s so much more thorough than the four tetrachords of Daryoush Tala’i.
My research is more based on Farhat's, Hedayat's, and Shirazi's treatises. Alghough in the older manuscripts, Segah and Bayat-e Esfahan are considered to be the same, under the title "Iraq", resulting to 7 genera, which is not completely correct in practice today. Similar minimizations might be considered in Talai's version.
Wow I really loved this explanation, the video was incredibly well done. Could you offer any exemplary songs for someone with no history listening to Persian music? What composers or tracks could I start with?
If you don't get board with the Persian traditional music, follow the works of Mohammad-Reza Shajarian and Mohammad-Reza Lotfi as good examples.
Thanks! I have a free improv gig today, and will be trying to work these quarter tones in. Thanks.
I find free improv gigs to be the best venue for quarter tone exploration.
Chromatic +5.…fascinating video!
excellent! I explain the varied intervals of "Middle Eastern" music (eg Arabic, Turkish, Persian, Kurdish etc) as 3/4 tone music (to distinguish it from "microtones") which I find helpful for Westerners to begin to understand. Also, I like to introduce the semitone only variations of these maqam / dashgar systems as 3/4 tone extensions of the simplified 8 variations (4 major and 4 minor) found in modern Greek and other Balkan folk music.
That's true. 🙏
Very informative and pedagogic video. I'm an outsider to the subject and this sort of music, so I would appreciate to see examples of how this is used in practice. You refer to the maqam as persian music, but on wikipedia I've only seen it referred to as arabic. Is there an distinction, or is it just the same thing?
Thanks for your compliment.
The Persian-Arabic modal system is intertwined to eachother. Many of the manuscripts of the Persian scholars is being written in Arabic language. And many musical terms in Arabic music (even today) is in Persian.
I'm going to make more videos explaining different melodic examples.
@@farzadmilani I see. As someone mainly interested in orchestral film music, it seems to me that Western composers/audiences have a very specific set of tropes that make music sound Middle Eastern (you know, lots of half-steps and augmented seconds) but rarely ever these quarter notes. So I'm curious to learn more about what real Persian/Arabic music sounds like and how they approach music theory.
@@monoverantus Buy some! Or if you're skint, go on a UA-cam rabbit hole! It's wonderful music. Start on a search of Djivan Gasparyan on Duduk. Now, Djivan is Armenian, not Arabic, but the music is very similar. In fact, Duduk is used a lot in Persian, Turkish, and other countries' music. But the Duduk did originate out out Armenia, from the Apricot tree. I dunno, mate. It's one place to start.
@@monoverantus It's not that the "augmented second", albeit usually tempered differently than on the piano, is non-existent in Iranian, Arab or Turkish music, but it is definitely over-represented as the sole leitmotif of the Middle East within Western classical music, Hollywood, etc. In reality, Middle Eastern music went through a similar push towards higher chromaticism at roughly the same time that Western music did. However, in the context of Middle Eastern music, chromaticism constitutes not any given deviation from the diatonic scale, but instead more concretely the presence of the chromatic genus of tetrachord with its augmented second, similar to the concept described in Ancient Greek music theory. So it was as part of the elaboration of the rich modal framework that the music got more "chromatic".
Still, across the Middle East, modes of the peculiar diatonic scale with neutral tones (3/4-tone steps) are more represented in the repertoire of most traditional musical styles than chromatic modes. But these sound completely alien to Western audiences, and they cannot be approximated on Western fixed-pitch instruments tuned in 12-tone equal temperament or be included in familiar harmonic progressions, which is probably why they aren't referenced.
The term I've seen used the most when it comes to "microtonal" music, is polychromatic. It fits well with polyrhythmic and polymetric things, language-wise.
Proper suggestion, thanks 🙏
please, i need examples of songs where i can hear this beautiful system. any recommendations?
I'll make more videos explainimg the applications of the 8 tetrachord genera.
@@farzadmilani any specific songs or artists i can listen to that display persian music like this?
@@gb747gb I'd say Mohammed-Reza Shajarian's (singer), Faramarz Payvar (santour player), and Mohammad-Reza Lotfi's (taar player) works are the most accurate ones. There're also a lot of other traditional music performers who sound really good.
The Hijaz tetrachord sounded the most pleasing to my ears!
I love that one, too. I never knew it wasn’t in the chromatic system until today. When I first tried to play it on a keyboard, I was perplexed. Eventually, I came up with D Eb F# G - I thought the small neutral tone was a semitone and the plus tone was a minor third. Now I know why it sounded strange on the piano.
@@dragonfractal6361 Actually, the modern tuning of Hijaz is very close to the Western system in the related Turkish and Arab classical music traditions, and is even sometimes used in modern Persian music. The contemporary Arab classical and Turkish folk music traditions use the exact same intervals for Hijaz as on the piano. Likewise, the many musical traditions of the Balkans and Eastern Europe (e.g., Klezmer music) use the tempered Hijaz with its three-semitone augmented second all the time.
@@Zaphod313 Thanks for the information! Comparing variations of similar ideas in different cultures is so fascinating. The time I thought I could not get it quite right on the piano, I was trying to copy a specific song that had influences from Indian classical music.
great video man tashakkor
🙏
This is mindblowing, like emotional translation between civilisations.
What i haven't got is how many steps need to cross whole octave, 22 or something else?
Thanks for your comment. If you mean "equal" steps, it needs to be 53 (a result of nine-fold division of a whole tone). I'll explain it later in a different video.
Also, 24-ET (as an acceptable reduction) works for most of the modes.
@@farzadmilani I assume you meant "nine-fold division of the _wholetone"._ 53 TET has a 9-step wholetone and two different semitones that are 5 and 4 steps respectively.
@@Dayanto exactly! I edited the reply
@@farzadmilaniI'd like to see that video!
if i have an obsession, this is it
i color coded the 12 tone chromatic scale for myself in such a way that the circle of 5ths/4ths create a rainbow with the black keys all being a blue hue
not sure how to incorporate my personal system into micro-tonal music, but what we have here seems to be a complete chromatic scale... or at least a more complete chromatic scale (as you call it)
Hey Farzad, thank you for sharing this, it's fascinating! I'd love to read your thesis, is it available anywhere?
It shoud be available online of McGill's website in a few months.
@@farzadmilani Thank you!
nice job
That is very,very good explained.Thank you very much.I tried for 3 years to play the santur,but I faild.
🙏 I'd say keep working! It's not that difficult.
Many thanks for a very interesting and pedagogical video. I play mainly saxophone myself, and while I realize that saxophones are relatively new to Iran, I am wondering if you can suggest any Iranian music for saxophone (Eb, Bb & C) in standard notation (and where it can be purchased).
Thanks for your compliment! Actually, saxophone has been a common member of the wood section mostly in popular bands, at least since the 50s (if not earlier) in Iran. I'm not sure if there's any transcription of the Iranian songs specifically for sax. But if you're curios to listen to the tunes, you can find it in a lot of arrangements of Varojan, Erik Arcunt, etc., (performed by Googoosh, Ebi, etc.).
Also, nowadays, maybe inspired by Arabic popular music, you can find sax, playing quartertonic modes as a solo instrument in Iranian pop songs.
magenta
fuchsia, red, orange-red
orange, saffron, amber
yellow, chartreuse
green, mint-green/teal
cyan, sky-blue, deep-blue
indigo, violet, purple
magenta
We use colour to identify all sorts of things. Cable cores. Traffic lights. Emotions.
And your colour progression makes sense to anyone with good colour vision.
However, in common with so many things, as the differences between the shades reduce, when lighting or vision is less than perfect, they become less easy to immediately recognise. I find the colours and letters easy but the indicators of small tonal variations are much more difficult to read.
For that reason, it could be useful to add another dimension of identification. For example, using the basic regular polyhedrons, maybe augmented by star-like pointed shapes. Perhaps a C would be a violet triangle? And D an orange square? With the D variants being changed somewhat - maybe a four-point star?
Up to a point, the more distinguishing features the better. Even if, as individuals, we only use one or two of those features, having more isn’t really a problem unless it becomes overwhelmingly complicated. After all, coins, banknotes and postage stamps all have a large number of identification features ranging from extremely obvious (big numbers) to extremely subtle (hologram that only appears with specific lighting). We just use the ones that work for us.
Makes sense. Thanks for your suggestion. 🙏
The tone system of the European Baroque period was also a 17 tone system. The flat and sharp notes were different, for instance: A sharp and B flat were not the same, like they are in the modern 12 tone system.
exactly!
The Xenharmonic Wiki page on Arabic, Turkish, Persian music section nequal temperaments for maqamat mentions Margo Schulter's 17 note Turquoise17 scale, but unfortunately the link from that is dead.
There're different senarios for the 17 tones, but consider that the Equal Division of the Octave does not work in this case. The system is more based on the ratios from the natural harmonic series.
@@farzadmilani I know -- you have to scroll past a bunch of stuff about equal divisions of the octave to see where they talk about unequal temperaments, but then unfortunately the link they give to an unequal 17 note temperament (possibly a just intonation approximation) is dead.
Thank you for sharing! This is so helpful for my western ears, giving ways to perceive music in ways i could not before. To continue the conversation you prompted, maybe the name of the scale could be named from a farsi equivelant of chromatic? For example رنگ scale? that way it is still a color scale, but the colors seen from your culture’s perspective. similarly, the chromatic scale would reflect its western perspective, shown through its word for color. this would give a format for other cultures to name and honor their unique perspectives on scales and modes while sharing the universal theory of sound as color with the global music community. this way we affirm the shared experience of music, and celebrate each others interpretations/understandings of it.
Nice suggestion, thank you 🙏
How can this be related to 12 tone systems before 12th root 2 Equal temperament? Is there a historic 12 tone tuning where approximations to the 17 tone can be made?
It has to do with the musical ratios. I'll explain it in a separate video.
@@farzadmilani Thanks - some of the 1/4 comma and 1/5th comma unequal temperaments have near mathematical ratio intervals . . .
Sesqui-chromatic (combining form denoting one and a half) or Sester-tonic (means two and a half)
Interesting, reminds me of ancient Greek music, the 'shades'. The chromatic and the super-chromatic being forbidden by Plato in his 'The State'.
I wonder how the Persian scales are created. Does the (conjunct or disjunct) tetrachords are the same in a scale, or can you have different tetrachords in a scale.
Thank you. It pretty musch works the same as the Ancient Greek system. Yes, the two tetrachords can be different (sometimes even the ascending tetrachord is different than the descending, in one single scales)
@@farzadmilani Very interesting, that makes for very flexibel music with a lot of possibilities for expression!
Very nice thank you. I vote for quarter chromatic
nice title! 🙏
Hello very interesting video. Why is the tritone excluded? Just in classical Persian systems? Have others broken the mold and included it? Thanks
Thanks! The tritone interval on piano (12-ET) is an extrimely deviated interval from the values in natural harmonic series. In the Persian 17-tone system, a natural representative of tritone is F-quarter-sharp, which is presented as a generative ratio (either 11:8 or 13:8) to obtain the other neutral intervals. I'll explain it in a seperate video.
17 notes in total if you fix the root. But then if you want to shift tonic you / your instrument might need more.
I play nay (intermediate), I can play the super chromatic scale in a few keys, but not all maqam for all tonics because I haven't practiced all possible fractional tones. Of course I can play a transposing Nay. But then the range shifts....
And, in maqam, the actual fraction depends on what you're modulating from.
This is just scraping the surface.
Is the Persian 17-tone system a subset of 24-TET? If not, what are some TETs that contains all of the notes in the 17-tone system?
24-EDO gives acceptable approximations for most of the modes, but it sounds mechanical. The best equal division of the octave that properly fits is 53-EDO.
@@farzadmilani is the 17-tone system a subset of 5-limit JI? (Since if that was the case, then it makes sense why 53-TET would fit very well)
@@ValkyRiver No, actually it's a combination of the Pythagorean 3-limit ratios and 13-limit ratios (accoring to one of the suggestions) for the six neutral tones.
For practical purposes, you can think of it that way. In all of the Middle Eastern traditions, it's essentially twelve Pythagorean chromatic notes + a varying number of neutral intervals, which have been described throughout history by Middle Eastern theorists either as schismatic 5-limit intervals (e.g., a 65536/59049 minor tone) within extended Pythagorean, or (truer to modern practice) using superparticular ratios like 12/11 or 13/12 for the neutral seconds. 24 EDO approximates this system well, which is why it was seen as a viable option and why it was ultimately adopted in the Arab world in 1932.
In practice, various shades of these neutral tones are used, but whether an actual semantic distinction is made between the different shades depends on the musical style in question. The fixed pitch instruments of contemporary Arab and Persian music, as well as Turkish folk music, are set up for playing just the 5 extra notes in addition to the Pythagorean chromatic scale. This means that one shade per neutral is deemed enough, at least within the context of a single performance, to properly render any piece of music.
On the other hand, Turkish classical music may use up to five different shades per neutral (meaning some of the "neutrals" are now very close to 5-limit JI) and change several of these within a single performance, usually using the lower shades as cadential inflections, and the higher ones to lessen the dissonance in implied major triads. For this purpose, the Turkish kanun (traditional zither) uses a subset of 72 EDO, with all the melodic intervals that it provides in the space between a semitone and a tone (between 6 and 12 steps of 72 EDO), while the tanbur and the lavta lutes are usually fretted for playing 4 or 3 shades, respectively.
Very nice info! Can I ask why the tritone is removed? Tar and Setar have a pardeh / fret at this interval and it is needed to play many gusheh. Chahargah and Isfahan on Sol for example.
There's no tritone in older sources. Regarding Isfahan, it could be because of the confusion after Vaziri's notion of 24-EDO (as you know we have two Isfahans, one is older).
@@farzadmilani Is the radif of Mirza Abdollah an older source? Please correct my misunderstanding. When I listen to the Gushe Hesar in Chahargah, I hear it uses the tritone a lot. Can you confirm? His Tar is tuned to C and the tritone is F#. The tritone in Isfahan/Homayoon is B and F natural if tuned to C. Is this correct? Thank you for sharing your knowledge of Persian music! I've been playing tar and studying with my ostad for years and never run out of questions :)
@@world_musician When I say "older" sources, I mean the treatises from 13th-15th centuries, and the contemporary explainations, like Hedayat's. Mirza Abdollah's trascription was done after 24-EDO accomodation in 40s if I'm not wrong.
@@farzadmilani Oh wow Ok I see you're going very far back! I thought the Mirza Abdollah Radif for Tar dates to early 1900s as ostad died in 1918. Ali Naqi Vaziri was a student of his. If you listen to his radif, and see up close musicians playing his Gushe Hesar in Chahargah it uses a tritone F# no koron notes. Its a modulation of the shahed to Sol, making the tritone act as the natural 7th. I do think that is the one and only example of a tritone i've ever heard in Persian music though! You can tell which note it is since Tar and Setar has frets. Its much harder to tell what note is used on kemance ney or voice obviously. The difference between F koron and the tritone is small and the note is only played briefly!
بسیار عالی 👏
Very fascinating Farzad. I would be very curious to read your master's thesis. Is it available online? or perhaps, could you make it available to me(us)? I would love to dive deeper!
Thanks man! 🙏 It should be available online in a few months on McGill website. I'm going to review the important topics gradually in my upcoming videos.
@@farzadmilani that's very exciting! I look forward to it!
It's possible to play and hear the 53 intervals on your desktop computer with the Danielou Semantic virtual synthesizer. It includes a 17-tone tuning, maybe close to the Persian sytem ?
Exactly true! The closest equal divition to the Persian 17-tone system is 53-EDO. It gives approximation closer to the values from the natural harmonic series.
Fascinating. Thank you. But would have loved you to have played some Persian music using a 17 note scale so we could hear it in action. Real missed opportunity.
Thanks man! Sure I'll do.
Great explanation! I took out my turkish bağlama to see if it follows this scale and it was almost the same, but with the tritone intact (F - F# - G ½flat - G). Wonder if it's a difference between persian and turkish music or if my movable frets just need adjusting lol
It should be the same (except for the size of neutral intervals) since the Turkish music theory is based on Urmavi's and Maraqi's 17-tone system. Also, there are a lot of songs in Turkish music repertoire of around 17th centurie, made by Persian musicians.
That tritone fret has been added probably for modulation purposes. Persian practitioners usually do the same thing.
@@farzadmilani oh interesting, that makes sense! Thanks for the reply 😊
Greek options: "heptakaidechromatic" (seventeen-coloured), persochromatic (Persian coloured), or polychromatic (many coloured). Personally I think a Farsi word would be better though, like "heftarangi" or even a Farsi/Greek combo like "heptaranic"
Goog suggestions! I like Persochromatic
Persochromatic makes sense.
Interesting. I’m done what colorblind, but I follow you. As a guitar player, this makes me want to explore the 17 note Persian scale via more detailed and meticulous string bending.
you should check out how this guy accomplishes this on guitar:
ua-cam.com/video/zGahJ-FaKjY/v-deo.htmlsi=51ZvH-RW5vRlwyWc
it's not the 17-note persian system (he's Turkish), but he made a guitar than has moveable frets, so you can play whatever scales you want.
I grew up finding music containing notes not found commonly in “Western” music hard to listen to, and what was a breakthrough for me was falling in love with the “Filmi” (movie soundtrack) version of Indian music, especially Moh’d Rafi and Lata Mangeshkar, and through that was introduced to Qawali and Indian classical music styles, and through that, to Sufi and Persian music. I feel that at some point in the past a hard movement to codify (in some western countries) exactly the current western Chromatic system and temperament was made, probably because our brains like to commit to and codify systems. Is there anything to my idea? Is there some cognitive or brain-function reason for why we become so attached to our specific scales and intervals? The current dominant form of temperament (tuning) in western music is arbitrary, some would say. There is a growing amount of experimentation in western music with other temperaments, which seem to me, a way of borrowing JUST A BIT of the tonal colors found in say, a persian 17-tone system’s color palette. I think your idea of color palettes is a very good explanatory idea.
Thanks for your comment and compliment!
I believe being confined to tones and half-tones is a matter of cultural taste, as well as popularization of the piano.
Surchromatic ?
You could call it enharmonic modes, in relation to the ancient greek modes that used steps that couldn't be expressed in semitones.
Two questions:
What is the distinction between a large & small neutral tone?
Are there rules for which tetrachords can be stacked together?
The Greek enharmonic tetrachord genus consists of quartartone intervals! We don't have any stepwise intervals smaller than semitone in Persian/Arabic/Turkish music.
I'll explain the difference between two sizes of the neutral tones in a seprate video.
There are a collection of melodic figures in Persian dastgah music (also in today's Arabic maqamat) that shows the possible good-sounding connection of the tetrachords. Usually musicians use those pre-designed models/figures to make a new music.
How about "Persian"?
It would have been nice to HEAR some music samples using 17 notes in the scale. Maybe a few harmonies
Don't miss my next video then!
Excellent summary, is the thesis available to read somewhere?
It should be accessible online on McGill's website in a few months.
Nice
How can I find your thesis? I would really love to dive deeper in this subject.
It'll be on McGill's website in a few months
I researched this 15 years ago and forget the exact details but do remember there was a surprising correlation between the frequency of a mid range octave beginning with A @ 440hz and the colour red 430/440 terahertz…there were similar intervals between the notes of an octave and the colours of a rainbow. I concluded eyes are tuned similarly to ears but react to waves orders of magnitude higher. I’ll admit I’m no scientist but think the subject needs further research. The light spectrum slides between each colour and this would allow for the Persian scale you describe.
Thanks for your comment
The colors align much better actually if you arrange them based on the circle of 5ths rather than the chromatic scale
I'll explain that in a separate video about Pythagorean tuning and Persian music
A question: can you transpose on each of the 17 tones? Probably not if you don't use the other quarter tones - or?
The system is relatively pitched, which meanis that the interval between the tones does not change, but you can traspose it to any key note. For instance your first note could be D instead of C, resultedly you get different set of notes. The modulation happens between diffenet tetrachord genera.
It would be fascinating to hear examples of music that use some of the scale systems that you mention, to get an idea of the 'flavour' that the tuning imparts to the melody. One suggestion is that if the 12-note chromatic scale is called dodecaphonic, the 17-note scale is dekaeptaphonic.
There is a kind of futility in trying to invent words for things that exist in other cultures rather than simply using the name that already exists in that culture. Is there already a word in persian for the general idea of a 17-step system? If not, I would still suggest naming it in persian - your scale, your voice, your choice.
Thanks for your comment.
Actually the dodecaphonic scale is when 12 tones function separately. The 12-T scale that I described is still functioning as an extension to a Heptatonic diatonic scale, meaning that we still have seven steps in an octave.
Same thing for the Persian 17-T system. It's working as a microtonal extension of seven steps.
And I don't think there's a title for it in Persian texts.
@@farzadmilani Perhaps, then, it is a temprament. The 12-step tempraments are the foundation for the standard heptatonic scales, after all. A major or minor scale can be built on any pitch by placing the semi-tones in specific positions. With meantone temprament, this resulted in quite different colours for different keys. Maybe, then, the 17-notes are Persian temprament, generative of scales that are patterned subsets.
A few ideas: Celestial scale, Paradisiac scale, Persian scale
Merci
As, in chemistry, "Per-" is used to mean "More" (Peroxide, Permanganate etc.), you might try "Perchromatic"?
That was nice. Merci!
Do you have a tuning file or list of intervals you could share?
There are some different suggestions for the 17 tones. I'm going to talk about it in a separate video.
How does the more chromatic scale impact on instrument design?
Good question! There has been some attempts done on guitar (buy putting fretlets between the main frets). For piano also, some microtonal instruments has been made with more keys in an octave.
@@farzadmilani That was almost exactly what I was going to ask about. On a piano, I can imagine difficulties in stretching across a 17 note octave if implemented naively by adding white notes. But I wondered if anyone had come up with a keyboard which supported 17 tones yet was also still quite playable by ordinary people?
@@polyvg - perhaps it's not necessary to 'reinvent' the piano to accommodate a 17-tone octave? Musicians tend to adapt their instrument to whatever music they want to play, so you just use the 'limited' chromatic scale of the piano to play a 17-tone octave.
@@squodge You might be right. And seeing the accordion playing...
But I felt it stood as a question even if there are ways of adapting.
It seems to be a system based part on mathematical ratios (chromatic) and the extra notes based on extra emotional content. Both side of the brain, logical and emotional. A more complete system.
The entire pitches are based on the ratios from the natural harmonic series. I'll explain it in a separate video.
@@farzadmilani Is it just the upper harmonic extensions? You just go further?
@@yvesbajulaz Actually it's based on Pythagorean 3:2 paralleled with a generative ratio from either eleventh (11:8) or thirteenth (13:8) harmonics.
@@farzadmilani thx :-)
The video actually starts at 4:18
Any one have any examples of good songs in any of the Persian modes?
You can start with listening to Mohammadreza Shajarian's works.
@@farzadmilani thank you!
Thank you, you picked my interest, now I want to dissect every little details of these musics, get closer to a real understading of them. So I can just read "Persian-Arabic Seventeen-Tone Temperament: A Microtonal Extension to the Heptatonic Scale" somewhere ? Do I need some knowledge first ? I only really know about European music theory... but first, let's be silly,
2:58 Why do you have so little respect for Gb ? You don't call it Gb but "the tritone", you assigne it just a "random colour", gee, I understand that this interval is "extremely deviated from its representative in the Harmonic Series" but that's no reason
1:43 I appreciate the effort put in syncing the music and the video really I do
1:02 Where do this wheel comes from ? Is it ancient French written on it ? Was the word vert (the french for green) used to be written verd as it is on the wheel ? I guess that's why words like "verdure" and "verdoyant" (green related stuff) are written with a d and not a t, mmh, interesting, I was not expecting to learn about French here
Thanks for your comment.
- Tritone is not a harmonically relative interval to the first note of the system (C). All other notes are, with more or less appeasements.
- I'm happy that you realized that synchronization with the song :)
- That's Claude Boutet's color circle from 1708.
Is there a reason the tri-tone was left out?
Because it's harmonically not related to the first note of the system.