Great Lakes Shipwrecks Disasters Including the Edmund Fitzgerald
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- Опубліковано 4 тра 2021
- Great Lakes Shipwrecks Disasters Including the Edmund Fitzgerald
I have Titanic, Olympic, Queen Mary, Ocean Liner, and other interesting Historical documentaries. It is a passion of mine to share the amazing Titanic story for the generations to come. Thank you watching my films and please Subscribe, Like, and Comment. Blessings, Mark.
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It's not clear to me why high tensile steel would make ships safer since safety should be the design constant so that better materials would be used exclusively to make them lighter and more efficient, not any safer.
Thank you!!!
@@paolaschuster9980 your welcome
@@titanicfilmsbymark Yes, THANK YOU very much!
This just shows ya folks that those Great Lakes are noying to play around with out there especially when those waters turn from calm and serene to extremely choppy, violent and treacherous from one minute of calm to the very next minute to extremely dangerous. A lot of respect should be given to both these ship's masters of the ore carrying vessels along with those guys who are the crew and hard workers of the vessels. And, the picture of the William Clay Ford under the command of Captain Donald Erickson along with ship's master, Captain Bernie Jesse Cooper of the Arther Anderson that was with the Big Fitz before she went down, still went back out there in that violent storm to participate in rescue maneuvers for the crew of the Big Fitz. Those guys, ship's masters and their crews all deserve a special Thanks and honor for their additional bravery under adverse conditions and circumstances. Thanks all you guys and ship's masters for all that you've done.
“We are holding our own.”
The last words ever heard from Capt. McSorely and The Big Fitz. Two minutes later she disappeared from the Arthur M. Anderson’s radar who was only 10 miles behind The Big Fitz. 😢
The ship sank too fast , the crew had no chance.
Growing up in Australia, I was always confused as to how all of these wrecks occurred on ‘lakes’. Further research and videos like these have since made me appreciate that these ‘lakes’ are actually inland seas, and that they can be much more ferocious than those bodies of water actually called ‘seas’.
Fantastic work with all of your videos - I have learned so much ❤️ Big love!
Glad you enjoyed it.
@@titanicfilmsbymark I’ve enjoyed your videos because they’re so good! Keep up the hard work cos it’s working! ❤️
That much fresh water is beyond the imagination of we Aussies! I'm also astounded by the scale of the Great Lakes.
Human greed brought down a few as well… that one last trip in November before the season closed, knowing these ships were overdue to be serviced
The Fitz supposedly set records for tonnage carried meaning she was routinely overloaded. They say most disasters are a combination of events so in this case you have ships not really built for rough weather that are overloaded and then pushing the weather window. Yes greed
What is greed tho? I think most people love all the goods/services we have yet think you don't have to "break any eggs" to get them. I wonder, with the tech at the time, would things like the Empire State Building been built with the safety standards people want in place?
It's a balance. The men get on these ships knowing the risk, not saying anything is justified just saying we consumers are the ones who want these products, no one would be sailing that cargo if no one was buying it.
Saw the Fitz as a kid fishing on the Detroit river. Never realized the size of freighters' until I was in the Navy as an adult and great lakes freighters are massive.
That's awesome
I'm intensely interested in Great Lakes shipping disasters. I think they underestimate the Great Lakes but in essence they are inland seas and as big as the ocean, relatively.
This is what few understand. The lakes really are inland seas of a sort and they are extremely dangerous. I've did sailing on the Detroit River and even there squalls can seem to come out of nowhere. It's a world unto itself.
@@harrietharlow9929 I know right. People hear the term "Lake", and believe they can't be that big. Well guess what. The Great Lakes are more dangerous than the North Atlantic. I've seen Lake Michigan go from nearly glass to 20 foot or more swells in less than 1/2 an hour.
Couple things I should point out about the loss of the Fitzgerald. As she rounded Caribou Island something happened, grounding and floating debris being the most common theories, but something. At 3:30 Fitzgerald radioed the Anderson saying they had two vent covers lost or damaged, a fence rail down and a list. The rail being down seems to indicate that the hull had flexed badly, it would take a lot of force to break the rail.
The Fitzgerald went down fast. The damage was similar to that suffered by one of her sisters the Arthur B Homer after the collision that saw her scrapped. If you examine the wreck, you can see how much mud she pushed up when she hit. That is not caused by sinking slowly. Finally not only were there no survivors, there were no bodies recovered. The ship went down so fast the crew did not even have time to get out of the ship. In the wheelhouse that is a single door, this would indicate that the first sign they had that the ship wasn't going to recover was the windows breaking in.
There was a recent example of a vessel being lost to failed hatch covers, the Henry Steinbrenner, however she used a different style of hatch covers, but after they failed it took hours to go down.
Finally in regards to the Fitzgerald's sister ships, they were the Arthur B Homer, scrapped following a collision in 1980 and the Herbert C Jackson, still sailing the lakes today.
One other thing, at no point in her career was the Anderson 730 feet. She was launched with a length of 649 feet but was lengthened to 767 feet, the length she still has today.
I didn't at all know that the Herbert C. Jackson was also a sister ship to the Big Fitz. I did very much know that the Arther B Homer is certainly a sister ship to the Big Fitz, and as to my reading of the Arther B. Homer, she was on Lake Erie in 1986 when she recieved word to sail her to the scrapyard for her final destination and ending of her life as a ore carrying vessel on the Great Lakes.
@@danbasta3677 I just double checked and you're right her collision was in the 70's and scrapped in 86.
Yes the Jackson is the Fitzgerald's sister the only real difference at launch was that she was ordered shorter than the other two and if I remember correctly she had a different propulsion system but the same layout. They were the last 3 vessels built at that ship yard.
The Fitzgerald was hull 301
The Jackson was 302
The Homer was 303
It isn't actually a "rail" its a really thick cable drawn tight from stern to bow
I know how quickly the weather can change! My daughter and I visited the States from Australia in 2015 (April through May)...we were keen to experience a few theme parks. It was while we were at Cedar Point, during the afternoon on a rather warm day, that a sudden drop in temperature occurred prompting us to buy hoodies. When exiting the shop we noticed everyone running towards the entrance of the park so naturally, we ran too, not knowing what was going on. By the time we reached the car park, not only was it was incredibly dark, the wind was so furious we had to crouch between parked cars to avoid being bowled over. We initially couldn't find our hire car...the wind had whipped up so much sand we couldn't see properly. When we finally got back to our motel after the ordeal was over, we noticed that each others faces were bright red from being sand blasted! We read the following day that a small tornado had run through Sandusky from Lake Erie.
That is some crazy weather. Thanks for watching
This goes to show ya that the weather up on the Great Lakes is and has always has been extremely violent and treacherous, nothing to play around with. Just imangine if you were on Lake Superior the 10th day of November, 1975 when both ore carrying ships, the Edmund Fitzgerald and the Arther Anderson were on Lake Superior that night and that morning when the Big Fitz went down, and there were no survivors. How terribly tragic it was, and how many of us SHOULD respect what those ship's masters and those guys who are the hard working crew members went through at that time.
@@danbasta3677 Honestly, I can't imagine how frightening that would have been for them. Poor things 😔
You have no idea. I live here. We, in March and April, can have tornadoes on Monday, and a Blizzard on Friday. The saying holds true. You don't like Chicago weather, wait 15 minutes, IT WILL CHANGE. Probably not for the better.
@@curtisfranzen986 That's amazing! I lived in a city in Australia that experiences 'four seasons in one day' (as their saying goes), but nothing compared to your weather inconsistencies. Our experience certainly gives us something to talk about back home, lol.
I went up to white fish point on my honeymoon, and there are over 6500 ships on the bottom of Superior alone. People that don't live in that area of the country don't realize that The Great Lakes are small Oceans.
Not to mention several dozen aircraft are also in Lake Superior.
All they lack is saltwater, but yes, they are seas and I consider Superior the most dangerous of the lot, fully worthy of her volcanic origins (she was born when meltwater from the glaciers filled a 1 billion-plus-year-old rift. and there is actually basalt under all of the silt. Had the rift not failed to stop, it would have formed an ocean at some point. But instead, we have the beautiful, tempestuous Lake Superior to enjoy and use for travel/shipping, but also to respect.
And those bodies of water are extremely very, very cold to. Lake Erie is north of me as I am from Beaver County Western Pennsylvania and it to can also turn violent in a heartbeat, however, nothing compared to Lake Superior that's for sure.
Not sure how you came up with 6500 in Lake Superior. They estimate the Great Lakes overall has 10k shipwrecks with Superior only having about 350-650 shipwrecks.
@@punchy2653 well if u want to run your mouth take your ass up to white fish point museum and check it out until then zip it chief no it all.
I read an article within the last year that researchers believe the Fitzgerald obviously had taken on water, but was also probably hit by a “rogue wave,” as has been seen in the Atlantic, but was recently documented on Lake Superior. I don’t remember how high it was estimated to be, but it would have been a huge solid wall of water. That makes sense to me.
A few minutes before the Fitzgerald disappeared from the Arthur M Anderson's radar the Anderson was reportedly hit by two large waves that put green water on the pilot house deck 35 feet above the waterline.
@Sam Macaw Terrible, very sad and extremely terrible. A young life snuffed out so early in life itself. Whatever he is, hope he is resting in peace.
While the waves on the Great Lakes can be as large as those in the North Atlantic, they are much closer together.
I mean, I live in Cleveland and the William G. Mather is about 7 stories tall, but it had waves on the lakes that'd completely go over the ship, and if you ask sailors, superior is in a league of its own. It also doesn't help that the ships on the lake are designed to cut through the waves, not go over them
While I don't know the whole truth, the theory that seems to make the most sense to me is that the Eddy Fitz got caught between two large waves and took damage. I remember when she went down, I live in Chicago. It was a huge story here.
I love these old school docs.
Very well made and produced, it’s sad the price we pay, and for everything we take for granted God bless all those souls.
I live on the south shore of Lake Ontario. These documentaries on the Great Lakes are very interesting, something very mysterious about them.
Cpt Cooper at on point said as soon as McSorly said rail down, lost vent, and listing, he knew it had touched bottom.
Love these old school documentaries - thanks for sharing!
You are welcome
As a Michigander I am very interested in this subject and the Great Lakes on general (Lake Superior is my favorite). I've been lucky enough to dive some of the shipwreck preserves in both Lake Michigan and Lake Superior, and I highly recommend this to anyone who enjoys a nice dive!! Please come to our state and see these wrecks up close. Its very safe and controlled. Fantastic video, thank you for posting this!!
That's awesome and thank you. Here's another Great Lakes video for your enjoyment ua-cam.com/video/4Foaiwnld2I/v-deo.html
0:35 6,000 wrecks in 20 years - Thats 300 wrecks per year. That's insane. That's 1 wreck every 29 hours.
Nothing in the world is better than "going to anchor behind Beaver Island."!🤗
To the guy saying the Fitz had to break apart on the surface.
OK, like yea your reasoning is sound. The problem is no mayday call. The captain last said "we are holding our own" and then that's it, ships gone. If broke on the surface, well radio is right there in arms reach. There is no way there was not enough time to issue a mayday.
This is why people think she torpedo'd and went down rapidly.
Possible it could have had its wires brake apart which would dis able the radio.
How stuck into the lake bed her bow is supports her torpedoing down, too.
The M.V. Derbyshire was 965ft long and she never made a mayday call before she sank, most likely in a very similar way to the Fitz by the bow like a submarine
Thank You very much. Great documentry :)
You are welcome
When I hear “set tonnage records” what I really hear is overloaded. These ships simply weren’t made for rough seas and when you add to that age and years of overloading and deferred maintenance then you try and squeeze in “one more trip”….
Yes, this is what happened. In all actuality, Captain Earnest McSorley had to take the job as ship's master as he was 62 years of age with 40 years of experience sailing on the Great Lakes, and was set to retire after this final run was completed, he had wrote in his personal log book as his wife was in a retirement living facility that he promised that he would join her after the final run. If Captain McSorley didn't want to take the job, his many years and retirement including pension, would have been lost completely and Northwestern Mutual company, owners of the Big Fitz and the Arther B. Homer would have gotten another ship's Captain to complete the last minute run which ended up tragically. That storm, delt ship's master Captain Earnest McSorley and his crew of hard working men a cruel hand.
Who else is here on the 110th anniversary of the Storm of 1913? Also, SS James Carruthers, another ship that sank (with all twenty-two hands) in Lake Huron during the Storm of 1913, has never been found. She is my personal Holy Grail shipwreck, not just in the Great Lakes, but in the world.
Thoughts - New info from CG about water in the hold required to lose buoyancy. Not addressed anywhere I have found - she was listing INTO the green water direction, did that impact the amount of boarding water that could have gotten into the hold? Also not addressed - she was 729 feet, the depth was 530 feet, but unless she went down vertically (unlikely), you have a triangle situation and it is doubtful the stern was above the water line when the bow impacted the bottom. This leads me to believe she succumbed to the tremendous load on or near the surface, possibly after the bow buried into a wave. And she didn't necessarily have to be negative buoyancy for the bow not come back up. Barely buoyant and buried into a wave would have been sufficient.
Great video thank you!
You are welcome
Great video..thanks!
The funny thing about those unsinkable ships is that they always seem to sink
I've watched several of these pieces about Great Lakes shipwrecks and casualties. It seems to me that regarding casualties no one gives adequate consideration to the bitter cold, crummy open lifeboats, poor cold weather clothing for the time, and long duration of exposure on incredibly heavy seas. It seems to me if you sink in these conditions, you were almost certainly going to die from exposure if you survive drowning.
There is a UA-cam video of Ed Kanabe, a very old man who had been the wheelman on the William Hawgood who visually witnessed the Regina go down. He said “She tried to turn around and tipped over “.
Thank you so much for your knowledge and input, I've always been fascinated with the great lakes and you really done your homework as far as the disaster goes
Thank you for this epic documentary; I subscribed
Thank you for subscribing
10000 sunken ships?
What!
Thanks for this interesting share!
John on wives computer.Was the corpsman on Coast Guard Cutter Bramble and was on the bridge when the Daniel J Morrell disappeared off our radar in November of 1966.
Just an addendum to the above from myself, John Cooper. We were taking water over the masthead of the Bramble when the Morrell went down. The storm was so bad that the Quartermaster stated we had gone backwards an estimated 100 yards during one hour.
What I think is amazing is that even at the elderly age of seventy years old the arthur m anderson It's still going strong today
These lake freighters are all designed to eventually break in half and sink. They are not built with watertight bulkheads- like ocean cargo vessels are. So the boats owners just let them run until they literally wear out and sink.
best
Bruce Peek
Great video Mark 😺🐾👋
You are welcome
Thanks for the content
Greatest sound track.............ever!
Indeed
I found this video to be very interesting and informative. Thank you!
A ship called the Phoenix burned, ironic, because Phoenixes set themselves on fire to be reborn….
Never knew how vicious the lakes are.
Not only vicious but they preserve their dead. The temperature of the waters, and the fact they are not salt water. Corpses tend to stay preserved.. Look up "Ole Whitey" of the Kamloops disaster.
@@LynxStarAuto damn.
Me neither till my cousin got a boat, had a pretty bad experience coming back to Monroe from Put In Bay, another bad one next yr when we went to Cedar Point, I only go on his boat now if we're sitting at the dock having a few drinks :)
@@mattstorm6568 yeah I grew up by ocean and what people describe of lakes ...I dunno...freaky.
@@mattstorm6568 Erie is quite shallow which causes her to occasionally get quite a stir on.
The Witch of November!
The mystery is what's kept the name Edmund Fitzgerald in people's minds. You know what's crazy? These kind of mysteries will slowly disappear because a lot of what happens now is documented via recording and uploaded or even streamed live. We find out what happened and how and it's forgotten. But not knowing what happened on the Fitz will keep its name on the lips of people for generations to come.
Well done.
Ten Thousand shipwrecks tens of thousand of lives lost, the most perilous area of open water on the planet.
Thirty years of living with the lake affect inside you, it does not leave you , even thou you have left it far behind.
They made songs about those waters. Remember the Fitz!
I remember hearing the song on the radio. I was pretty young, but I loved hearing it because it was a story. It sank when I was 9.yrs old.
Lake Michigan does not touch Canada
I just happened to be watching this on the Anniversary of the wreck of the Fitz.
6:19 The Eastland capsized on the Chicago River.....
Excellent program. Thanks so much for sharing this with us. There’s a great book from the mid 1970s titled “The Great Lakes Triangle” by Jay Gourley which is well worth seeking out. 👍
It's telling that three of these vessels--- the biggest wrecks of each of those decades, 1950s (Carl Bradley), 1960s (Daniel Morrell), 1970s (Edmund Fitzgerald)----sank on the last scheduled run of the season. If you're superstitious you might check the weather carefully before you sign on to that last departure.
Or the greedy ownera could stop "squeezing" in one last run for more money
I have a book somewhere, called ghost ships of the great lakes, now its just stories, whether or not they're true I don't know, but the first part of the book has all the names of every ship that has disappeared on the lakes, and it takes about the improvements made. But yeah, living by lake Erie, I can testify to the lakes tendency to get violent on a seconds notice without storms, and sudden storms that appear without warning.
you forgot St. Clair if it wasnt for it there would be no connection to Huron, I know it's just a puddle but I spent many summers on that little lake it has a special place in the heart for boaters there,we always see the big ships passing through and wave they are monsters compared to my 25 footer heh we love the big ships, it is crazy how fast things can change out on the lake from water like glass to crazy 6 foot rollers in a second, this is one of the best videos on the Fitz, I would love to show a short clip of it,this is excellent work, I have been researching this event to show in a livestream I will link it in description regardless,great info here
If it broke apart on the surface you would not the compression damage or accordion effect which is visible on the where it broke apart. It makes sense that the Stern is upside down because the pop was still turning when to dig into the bottom .. the prop would keep trying to push it forward and once the bow dig so deep it would not be able to move forward any further and with the prop still trying to push the shop forward it would have compressed in the middle look an accordion and the the stern would have separated and the pitch of the prop would cause the stern to capsize
We circled the resting spot of the Regina, in my brother's boat, south of the harbor. It was marked by a large, orange Minute Maid container, attached to a massive rope. We had always heard stories about the shipwreck, though, until the mid 80's we had no idea it was right in front of our cottage!
Did anyone check the rocks on the that sholle for paint or scrapes on them rocks?
Yes there was a dive exposition on the shoal some yrs later. They said they found dislodged rocks and some paint. WNNU PBS station on the campus of Northern Michigan University has done many documentaries on great lakes ship wrecks called the Gaies of November series.
Bah these aint no storms I have taken dingys through, I say you call this a storm? this aint no storm! It's just you and me! just kidding cool show
Fleming and Mays would like to take that picture back 😂!?
In memory of Cliff Weaver 1956 hurricane Hazel took his life Captain Pat Ferman deckhand Bob Hamilton lucky survivors worked the deck on the Maclin with Pat when I was 13 found memorys
The CG cutter looks like the Acatia ported out of port Huron does anyone know?
excellent doc thank you and God Bless !
I got caught in storm on Lake Erie. 20 footer lucky be alive. Those lakes kick some ass! That's for damn sure!
That's crazy. Glad you made it out okay.
@@titanicfilmsbymark much obliged. Scary as all hell. Took two hours to tack a couple miles to shore.
I'll never forget that one.
@@jacksutherland846 I would imagine. Never forget it
@@titanicfilmsbymark no doubt sorry for the cruddy grammar.
@@jacksutherland846 no worries at all.
I think after he grabbed his pea coat he went to the poop deck
thank you Mark
You are welcome
(Inspired by "The Wreck Of The Edmund Fitzgerald" by Gordon Lightfoot)
'Neath the wind and waves
Are many mariners' graves
Where lost souls forever are buried
On board that great ship
Till the sea loosed each man's grip
Not one of them even seemed worried
But November's tempest
That great vessel did test
None of its crew were survivors
By waves men were tossed
And all hands on deck lost
Their graves found by deep sea divers
Not many prevail
'gainst a furious gale
That keeps all the sailors a fearing
Save for a sturdy cape
There could be no escape
From sailors and ships disappearing
She listed to port
And then she came up short
As the lake sought right then to claim her
The crew fought all night
To set the ship right
From the unwelcome waters to drain her
But no matter how they fought
Their efforts were for naught
As there could be only one winner
The bow soon was full
Drawn down by gravity's pull
That spared neither saint nor sinner
It was already too late
When The Anderson's first mate
Phoned the captain of the vessel now sinking
"We're holding our own"
But his fate was unknown
As his ship the sea water was drinking
Brave men met their doom
With their great ship now entombed
On the cruel lake's rocky bottom
Sailors nine and one score
Suddenly were no more
For the witch of November had got 'em
I'm not sure if they prayed
Or what price they would have paid
To see another day dawning
But for them the bell did toll
As they sank in the shoal
While the angry sea was still yawning
It's been forty-six years
And an ocean of tears
Since that stormy night in November
To those brave men who are gone
We sing this mournful song
But in our hearts we shall always remember
© 2017 - 2021
With the way companies operate it doesn't surprise me one bit the covers where crap. Everyone is always cheap af and it'll never change doesn't matter to the rest of us workers. May all those souls rest in peace 😔🙏😔🙏😔🙏
2 words = underwater drone
I don't believe the Fitzgerald broke in half on the surface. I think she started to because of the captains report of her cable rails being down. So I believe she buckled then split when her bow hit bottom.
Was There any ice buildup? That is the thing that will get you
What year was this recorded?
4K HD?? This is a standard definition dub from a vhs cassette. You can tell by the blanking artifacts on the bottom scan lines.
You can change the UA-cam settings to watch in 4k.
Its still hard to believe that a ship that size had problems on a lake! I still think it was somthin else morebon paranormal side
You're not very bright
Posted 4 months ago... but when was this made?
Hi John, approximately 2001.
The one older guy who compared the lack of buoyancy to dying as a result of no heartbeat and the middle aged guy with glasses seem to have the best idea of how the Fitz went down. They have the same thoughts as Capt. Cooper
45:09. That's not true. The Arthur B. Homer ran until 1980. She was lengthened in 76, year after the Fitz went down
I don't have your captain's stolen ship.
Sounds good
i have a new theory of what sank the Edmund Fitzgerald. what if she was far more and severely damaged then the captan thought it was? as he mentions a damaged guard rail. i am wondering if there was more then a damaged guardrail! like a hole in the hull of the ship? and she started taking on water rapidly! and then sank. that however does not explain how she ended up upside down!
I too believe she was damaged far more than realized because of the tossing caused by the chops. The captain think they're being tossed about but really what's happening is ship is being cracked apart.
That's not what happened to the Bradly it was on it's way to a shipyard to get the rusted hold replaced but the greedy owners wanted 1 more trip it wasn't seaworthy and the owners knew it they tried everything they could do get out of paying the families
Good documentary... but calling old VCR footage as 4K is laughable
Change your UA-cam settings to 4k
@@titanicfilmsbymark really?... do I have to do that with a LG 4K TV?
Go to your "Quality for current video" within your UA-cam settings, you will see 4K. Have a great day.
The railing is all that is continuous. Believe the witnesses
Come to think of it, you never do hear too much about recreational boating and assorted amusement activities on the Great Lakes.
What the hell are you talking about guy? The shores of lake Michigan are swarming with swimmers and kayakers and water skiers during the summers, there are some great beaches. Tons of people go miles out in the lakes to go recreational fishing.
A coworker of mine told a story in the lunch room one day about a trip he & his wife made in his 22 foot stern drive cuddy cabin pleasure craft, from L'Anse to Iles Royal one beautiful sunny summer day. The trip over was uneventful BUT on the return a summer squal arose that lasted only about 15 to 20 min but it tore his canvas canopy off, the engine got swamped and almost quit. This guy did 2 tours in Vietnam and this event scared him so much, that once he got back he loaded the boat onto its trailer and put a 4 sale sign on it.
@@stantaylor3350 Golly Jeezers ! Well, there you go. POTENTIAL death trap.
No one knows how to pronounce Appalachia or Appalachian
6 fathom shoal is actually a lot deeper than they thought it was. They didn't bottom out
They bottomed out. It’s obvious
Its like 38 ft. So with waves, it absolutely bottomed out
No, no they absolutely didn't
Hey ScrewTube you haven’t had your purple-haired goons cancel me for 24 hours. I can’t believe it!
This show is dizzying. It would be far better if you had stuch to one story or one topic and then moved on. The information is good, but that's all this is. There is no story, something that is really necessary when talking about shipwreaks.
You know I'm not any kind of naval architect but just from all the evidence I've herd about the Fitz it sounds like she may have actually bottomed out at 6 fathom shoal with the starboard rail down and missing vent covers my personal opinion is that she cracked her hull and was getting water in the vents the pumps couldn't keep up and did just take a nose dive after multiple hrs of collecting water and that was all she wrote, I think all the men that where in the wheel house got pushed down under the wheel house and that's the reason they didn't find any bodies, just from my knowledge of those boats and first hand experience from an uncle of mine who started off as a deck hand who is now a captain on the Great lakes running iron ore I believe in my opinion and as well his, who is an experienced captain that's been on the great lake for 40+ yeas