I use the makita saw and rail. And the 3m one is an absolute beast for doing sheet goods. I also have a router adapter and i just love it. Only downside with these rails is that you can’t trust the splinterguards for measurements. I always measure away or to the alluminium and add or subtract that set offset.
Instead of that, just plunge the saw on the rail without it being turned on so the teeth are touching the material, and roll it forward. They’ll. leave little marks, you’ll see exactly where the cut will be. Hmmm 🤔 should plunge saws have shadow/laser lines too 😁
Peter absolutely love your video’s. I’m a Brit living in the Northwest of the US and have recently decided to restart my woodworking hobby. Having dropped a small fortune on Festool I made a recent discovery. So Amazon recently starting promoting the Powertec brand for shop supplies. I’m not sure if there is a relationship with Amazon. The point - They sell two 55’ rails plus 2 connectors for approx $130. They work great!
Thank you Peter for that, informative as ever, tutorial. Having watched your previous series on the 'plunge saw wars', I kept my eyes peeled for the Evolution solution. I already owned the Makita plunge saw, which I bought as a package with two guide rails, the bag and two clamps for less than £400. Initially, I was tempted by the 3m rail as the Makita rails don't seem to connect all that well. And whilst this has not really had any impact on the accuracy of the cuts - can't blame the rails for everything - there is a distinct clicking as the saw travels from one rail to the other. On top of this, they tend to gradually drift apart if you have to perform repeated cuts and are constantly moving the tracks. I really think there should have been an option for two joining strips, as there is on the Evolution, making alignment more reliable, and the connection more secure. When the Evolution deal you mention came up on a special for £59, I just went ahead and bought them. I then did what your fellow UA-camr at The Strawbyte Workshop suggested, and cut one of the Makita rails into two lengths 800mm/600mm making them easier to use on kitchen worktops and in smaller spaces, where the 1400 was just a tad too long.
Very informative and helpful video. I was contemplating getting a tacksaw and went for the 36v Makita....expensive as I'm not in the trade but well worth it. I saved some money buying the evolution rails which advertise compatability so I bought the 2x70cm kit and plan to get the 2x1.4m one at some point. They work perfectly with my Makita so far.
Same here.. after lots of comparison and review, I did not want an ultra cheap track saw that flexes (Ryobi, WEN) and would not pay the ultra premium cost of the Festool. The Makita 36V was the best mid-line model IMHO. The track cost is too high ($99 per 55" track), so I ordered mine without one and got the Powertec ones for far less... two 55" tracks, a nice bag, a quality right angle adapter and pair of track clamps, all for under $200.
Thanks, one of your best product videos yet!!! My problem is how to either purchase or create an appropriate guide rail for 4x8 sheet goods without spending over $300 to do it. I have a Makita saw, which I am moderately happy with. If I had to do it over I would definitely go with Festool considering how often I use it, even being a hobbyist, I use it almost every day for something. Makita's track is $300 and I am afraid to look at what Festool wants for theirs. Anyway, thanks again, stay safe and healthy.
Awesome content! I know this is years old, but I am a Milwaukee tool guy. I have Milwaukee track saw and use on my mft 2 and with my two 55” Milwaukee tracks. They are fully compatible. Milwaukee is popular here is Nothing America, Canada
Peter, great vid as per usual. Followed your advice and got myself the Evolution 2800 set for my Titan saw. Couldn’t be happier, I can now rip full length 8 x 4 sheets accurately with ease. Many thanks for your help. Keep the vids coming!
Peter, I bought that excel guide rail 3 weeks ago, it was cheaper to buy a guide rail and squeeze clamps separately then the kit they offered. When I turned up and I first put it to use I went to buy another and like your self I was mortified to find it out of stock. Good informational video 👍👍
Great video as ever Peter. Never had any problems with tipping on my Evolution track saw and rails. The set was great value for money. Really pleased with the saw itself and the set too.
Thanks for an excellent, informative video. Just what I needed to help decide whether I can adapt my current old DeWalt rails (one is actually an original Elu!) for use with my new Makita dhs680 saw (I'm doubting that it's worth doing, mainly because they lack the integrated glide strips but also the locating rib is slightly wider at nearly 17mm). Excel seem to be going at a sensible price at the moment, so maybe that's the route to go. Lots of other useful ideas in the feedback below too. Great channel. Thanks again, Peter.
I modified a Makita guide rail slightly to fit my Parkside. I cut off the anti-tipping lip with an aluminium cutting blade so the Parkside would fit in the channels. But then found the splinter guard ended shy of the blade, so replaced it with a 2mm x 25mm rubber strip and trimmed to size. Now I have a Makita guide rail that can use all the aftermarket jigs on my Parkside.
Just incase anyone has an erbauer saw, the excell track works great with it. Anti tip works & saw glides along track. Snugs up great. Only thing is, I haven't tried to join them yet.
Just be aware that the 2x700mm Excel rails are not the same pattern at the 1x1500mm rail I talk about in this video. They’re more like the Parkside rails, not the Makita pattern. From the video description:- “NB: Excel is an own-brand of Tools4Trade. The Excel 1.5metre rail is compatible with Makita and Festool, but their own Excel saw seems to be a clone of the Lidl Parkside, so the 2x700mm rails bundled with the Excel saw, or available as accessories have all the same issues that the Parkside saw and rails have.”
Amazing content today Peter! You definitely had me shocked in the intro. I'm a big fan of your track saw videos. One product I would enjoy watching you review is the Kreg track saw and guide rails! Thanks from Canada!
Thanks for the tip on excel rails, I don’t need any more rail sections, but their joining bars are very good value at 10£ posted for 2 sets.. Makita ones are more than that for 1..
Peter, great channel, just found you. That was interesting about Mafell making the Bosch rails and connector. And they are _identical_ which was a surprise for me. I have an older Bosch PKS-54 so will go for the Bosch (=Mafell) solution. All the best, Rob in Switzerland.
Hi Peter, after watching you David Stanton & Ron Paulk I felt that I needed a Plunge Saw but the cheapest I could get at Total Tools before Christmas was a Detroit (Total Tools Makita anti-tipping). So for $399 it has a 2mm scribing cut button by rotating a dial to scribe/Cut or replace blades it came with dust bag/2 joiners top/bottom/2 clamps/1400mm track with 165mm Plunge Saw & I bought another 1400mm track for $99. In Australia, it is about a bit under about a 1/3 of the Festool & 1/2 of the Mikita in price. I am very impressed with it and it made making an 850mm wide x 800mm long x 195mm high Ramp at around 10Deg very easy.
I bought one yesterday, it's still in its packaging. I bought the kit which adds the 1400m rail to the body, bot neither clamps nor dust bag. I do plan on getting a "better" blade from Bunnings, most likely Diablo or Italian Irwin. It seem Italians are especially good at making cutting stuff, and/or persuading the world they do.
Great compare Peter! Never did a so wide look over the available clones. And also a great supporter idea! Was shocking to see you the guide rail cutting in half :D
Important update on my previous comment - Excel 700mm guide rails won't work with a Makita DHS680 and guide rail adaptor. I've just acquired a pack of two 700mm Excel guide rails, and these are not the same as the standard Makita guide rail profile and won't work with my Makita DHS 680 and guide rail adaptor (though perhaps they might work with a Makita track saw). It appears that Excel either offer alternative profiles or have changed their design since Peter made the video. Either way, this 700mm rail profile differs from the Makita profile in two important respects: a) the channel on the edge of these rails is a 'c' section (not a 'u' section as per the Makita rail) with the 'c' opening facing towards the centre of the rail. This means it is not possible to use a second connector bar when connecting the rails together; b) more significantly for using a Makita guide rail adaptor, the top of the 'c' channel is approximately 10mm above the surface of the rail and about 4mm higher than the centre channel, so a Makita guide rail adaptor will not sit properly on the rail without modification as the edge of the adaptor that would normally run over the Makita outer 'u' channel rides 4mm higher on the Excel outer 'c' channel. It looks like Makita rails are the right option for the DHS680 saw/guide rail adaptor after all!! I can provide photo's if needed.
Thanks for this and your more recent plunge saw video peter, I’ve ended up going for Mcallister saw that come with 2 x smaller rails, the excel 2 x long rails and makita clamps. Looking forward to testing them out.
I've always stuck with the festool rails for whatever reason, if it was matching logos I don't know. Looks like it was a good decision as the accuracy looks to be the best by far out of the lot.
Super useful videos Peter you convinced me to pick up a track saw. I’ve ended up with the cheap silverline (looks identical to the lumberjack saw) for £60 off Amazon warehouse which came with two 700mm rails, can’t complain for my occasional use! I did get the long excel rail also as they were £45 still cheapest a for long rail and the site did the makita splinter guard for £5... ...However one word of warning for anyone with the silverline or lumberjack (or wider track saws), they’re a touch wider than festool on the left and as such foul on the anti tipping lip of the excel/makita rail. Having weighed up the cost of returning and other rails I will be angle grinding that lip off.
I started my Festool madness with a TS55 and two 1400 rails - absolutely hated faffing about to join them and never trusted the straightness, so I bought a 3000 rail and never looked back. Expensive but efficient! I also have a Makita saw and the rails that came with it - both rails have a slight bow in them, making it a pain to line up as it won't sit flat on the workpiece unless you lean on the middle or put the saw on it. The saw is still in use (on a permanent cross-cut station) but on a (cut down) Festool track. Lesson learned; don't spoil the ship for a ha'porth of tar. If I had a budget saw I'd probably be happy with budget rails, but every horribly expensive Festool tool and accessory that I've bought seems to have a little bit of magic built into it. Just sayin' ;-)
Hey Jeremy. Yes, I don’t disagree - I bought the 3metre Makita rail back when they were about 1/3 the price of the Festool. It was a good one, thankfully - wouldn’t have fancied sending it back! 😂👍
Agree wholeheartedly with that. In the workshop the 3 metre rail makes life so much easier. I liked it so much that I bought a 1.9 metre for crosscutting 8x4s because I like the extra length to run in and out of the cut. The 1.4s are now relegated to the substitutes bench.
Hi Peter, thank you for another geat video. But I have one thing to point out. Festool rail sticks to the wood so clamping is not necessary. My other track is Pattfield (Hornbach market brand, 30 euro for 1400mm track), and is also Festool compatible, but it slips on the wood like crazy. I replaced glide strips and splinter guard with Makita spares, so the track now works pretty well now, but with stock soft strips on the bottom it is not any close to Festool grip. I cut the track to 800mm lenght for smaller jobs. And it works with handy Bosch 12V circular saw as well.
To avoid misalignment and unwanted/unnecessary bumpy glides when running the tracksaws along the joined tracks… …one should avoid the joint between joined tracks (even from the same make) to be completely closed; it's (much) better to leave a smal 1mm - ≤2,5mm gap between them. This will avoid a bumps when the edges of then joints are nor a 1005 in line as well as that it makes alignement (and thus an almost 100% straight track) easier to achieve. Although most manufacturers/traders don't seem to bother, others s.a. Evolution Powertools even mention such specifically in their manuals: THE TRACK The Evolution Track system consists of two (2) or three (3) precision extruded alloy sections. (Fig. 18) These sections must be joined together using the joining bars supplied. (Fig. 19) To Join The Sections Together (Fig. 19): • Slide the bars into the ‘T’ slots found on the under surface of the extrusions. • Ensure that an equal length (approximately) of the bars is inserted into both of the sections to be joined together. • Tighten the socket headed grub-screws to secure the sections together. IMPORTANT NOTES Note: It is important to leave a small gap between joined sections of between 1 to 2mm. This will ensure that when a circular saw is placed upon and used with an Evolution Cross Cutting Track it will slide smoothly along the entire track length. SAW TO TRACK COMMISSIONING Note: The following guidelines refer to Evolution circular saws and the Evolution Cutting Track. Consult the information supplied by the saw and/or the cutting track manufacturers if a non-Evolution circular saw or cutting track is to be used. Before the first use of the Evolution Cutting Track the Splinter Guard Strip (Fig. 21) needs to match the saw and blade. een vriendelijke groet, Simon Koorn
I really like the flexibility of having two 700mm over the 1400mm rail, for smaller cuts it's less of a faff lining it up as you don't have a metre of track in your way, and it's a lot easier to carry around. In fact, I've taken them on the bus with me!
@@10MinuteWorkshop I suppose it depends on what you use the track saw for, for the few times that I've needed a longer track, I've just done it in multiple passes. The rest of my longer cuts are done on the tablesaw as they're usually too narrow to cut safely anyway
Have to agree - in similar vein I have 2 of Axminster's Pro Grip clamps in 610 & 1270 lengths for convenience and handling - I've yet to graduate to a plunge-saw. BTW must be summer, no T-shirt & shorts this week:-)
Thanks for the comparison. I am new to plunge saws and guide rails. Have an Aldi saw and just bought a set from Evolution with 2x 700mm rails, clamps, joiners and a bag for £50 direct from Evolution. Thanks for the issue with the low friction strips I will ensure that I try to keep pressure over the strips. The cut edges of the rails are a little rough which is disappointing as I assume they are machine cut, I may fettle these for a smoother joint and I agree the splinter guard is a little bulky.
Informative as usual. In the wild axxx guess department. I can think of a reason why no one has copied the Festool rail despite the fact the patent has expired. Given Festools corporate culture I think you would have to fairly certain you would be sued. IP lawyers fees to other lawyers fees are Festool prices to Aldi prices. All they have to do is allege that the consumers are being misled by the knock off and years of extremely expensive litigation can follow. This may be cynical but it is an informed opinion.
Hi Peter, I enjoyed your video very much. Just to throw in to mix, I recently bought Metabo KS55FS with FS 160 rail. The bundle costs around 200 euros. I guess its oltder model but I could not resist for that price. The rails looks like "bosh" but I did not do the measurements. Also, you can get 800mm rail for 60 euros on amazon.de which is close to youtool which costs 40 Euros. Have a good day.
@@10MinuteWorkshop The downside is that it's really hard to find any accessories. Peter would you be so kind and measure the height of space in which the clamps should be inserted? At my Metabo rail it's 6.5mm. I am trying to assert whether I can use bosh (or other) clamps. Thank you very much.
As I have a number of other Dewalt tools I bought the Dewalt track saw and rail and have been very happy with it. I realise its not the ‘standard’ rail; would have liked to have seen it covered in a bit more detail
I'm sure, but in all honesty there isn't much to say about them; they've gone completely their own way with the double-edged rail which causes all kinds of compatibility issues with accessories, and while the 2.6 metre rail is well priced, no other saw can use it. 🤷♂️
You are the Tracksaw King, I love my Titan I am making a replacement roof cover for my friend’s pond equipment enclosure and needed to cut the fall for the 75x50 timber bearers. I set my table saw up only to find I couldn’t set out my angles so got my track saw out and it cut both bearers perfectly. Love the saw and the tracks think I might now need to replace the splinter guard as is was 50mm cut and there was lots of black bits in the sawdust and there was no burn out. Thanks for your advice on getting the Titan. Keep up the great work.
I’ve enjoyed my festool but I find the spilter rubber peels off at the edges and is a pain to replace as cleaning the glue off to get good bonding for the new
Hi Peter / all. Not sure if this has been mentioned before. After some testing today I can confirm adding EzyGlideTape (the solution for sticking curtain rings) to the Evolution rails eliminates wobble on my new version Parkside PT55 1200 D2 - a relatively inexpensive fix at around £10 delivered from Amazon. Only just got some, put it on and made some test cuts (accurate) so not sure about long term wear etc yet. Regards Ed
@@45KevinRyes, a few months in and still working fine. I use the evolution rails for sheet materials and often joined together. Not having to worry about tipping the blade when cutting in awkward positions is a real plus.
Ozito is widely available through Bunnings across Australia and NZ. Both Ozito and Parkside names are owned by Einhell. I think Einhell products can be bought here, bot not from anyone near me. Curiously, Einhell has a 1300 (universal across Australia) number, and Aldi's WorkZone shares that number.
Evolution Power Tools ST2800-G2 Circular Saw Guide Rail / Track | Universal Fits Most Brands Makita, Bosch, Festool | 2.8m (2x 1400mm ) With Self-Aligning Connector Bars | Incl. End Stop Accessory....This is the new version of the Evolution Rails , comes with 3 glide strips . Ive just bought the new Festool TSV 60 With Scorer blade and I bought these to use with this rail as It needs a dedicated track due to the scoring facility . Ive yet to put them against my Festool equivelents but the T slots are right way up . Amazon price was £84.99 You get 2 x 1400 rails , Saw stop Jointing bars , Allen key with holder , 2 new type clamps and a carry case , all neatly packed in a sturdy box ....Im a Festool nut andf have been for yoears but I recon these rails will do the same job for a lot lower money or even as a back up rail set .
Another top video, Having now gone down the 'tracksaw' route when buying the Aldi kit for £29.99! fitted my first Kitchen with it this week, Impressed with it TBH, cut the worktops fine and the cutouts for the sink/hob, grip on the track is good impressive for the money! Having been looking at upgrading, Did I notice you using the Bosch rail in a previous video? I think I'm going to go for the Bosch as their Router works on the same rail and I like the way the rails 'join' (had a good look at the D&M tool show last yearish (I need a new mid range router as my Trend has died, Had it 20+ yrs) I think like you do yourself, pick a system and stick with it, it's not rocket science, Im a Makita fan but the Bosch kicks it ass on tracksaws IMO
Thanks! Yeah, the Aldi’s decent enough - especially at £30! - but I found I needed to do a lot more to it to get it cutting well. I had /have the Mafell on loan, but the Bosch looks good! 👍👍
Good info here as always! If I could justify the cost of a ts55 it would be the saw I own but just setting out on this journey I went down the park side route! Seeing the issues with the evolution rail is interesting and I’m a little let down it doesn’t work with the square from last weeks video but I think I’m going to go with them anyway as I really want a single rail to do cross cuts with so the 1400 will be perfect. Keep one of the shorter original rails for small cuts and portability and I’m sorted. I don’t know if I’m just heavy handed or anyone else has found it but when I first tightened down the joining rail it blistered out the top of the track meaning I had to swap them round end to end so the saw would travel along it!
There’s a fix coming very soon for the evolution rails and the benchdogs rail square. FYI there are some very good deals going around on the festool saw and rail package. 👍👍
great video. i bought the evolution rails after seeing them recommended in one of your earlier vids and I love the rails for the price and size. my only criticism for my pair is; i believe the ends of mine weren't cut at perfect 90's and when joining them together i have to leave a maybe 1mm gap to one side to straighten them up and avoid the saw binding when i go over the join. regarding 7:10, i've also had the issue with the saw tipping to the left if i don't keep pressure towards the blade side but I had just put it down to the base of my cheap lidl saw not being completely flat (you can see some gaps when placing a ruler against the face) but it probably is just as attributable to the point you make about both strips being to the right of the rib - having one on either side does seem like a better design.
I have the set of two 1,400 mm Evolution rails in an Evolution bag. The instructions tell you to leave a 1 mm gap when joining them so they must recognise that the ends aren’t perfectly square (mine are slightly out of square, too). Don’t mess about trying to trim the ends dead square - just follow the instructions! Or should that be the classic ‘RTFM’?
Nicely done, I have been wondering about the absolute compatibility between rails for a while - I have the Erbauer saw with the included 2 x 700 rails, I also happened across the Excel 1500 rail for £27 a week or so back, at the price I took the chance and glad I did, it works a treat - Cant say for sure it's 100% the same but the saw glides fine and the splinter guards align so it's good enough for me. I Look forward to your Erbauer review as I have no comparison for mine (except a friends Festool which is no comparison at all) - I am only a hobbyist but I had to change the blade before my Erbauer would cut true, with the original blade it veered off the splinter guide 1 - 2 mm every now and then unless I cut VERY slowly (but no perceivable wobble or movement in the blade when stationary) - Very strange but new blade and splinter guards and all seems good.
Great Video and very informative.... As a Newbe to all of this I find it amazing how many different products/tools there actually are out there. I didn't even know, well I am still not 100% sure, what the difference is between the Track Saw and the Circular saw.... other than the track :) You have a new subscriber.... 2 thumbs up!
Great video. Really appreciate the details on the DeWalt. Maybe I can have my cake and eat it, too, by buying the DeWalt saw and using Festool rails. Something for me to ponder and research more... 👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop I have the DeWalt saw and I'm about to buy some festool rails. I find the DeWalt rail has a large amount of flex, and is also very wide, so when used on an mft with dogs or a rail square, the flex can mess up the cut v often. Fine for long cuts but no good for using it as a an mft mitre saw
Chicken Dinnerz I have wondered if the wider rail would cause a problem. I thought the extra width might help with deflection on long cuts, but that’s good feedback from your experience. Thanks for sharing!
@@g1mpster it is good on long cuts, but for mft cross cuts like Peter does a lot it's not good as it's very happy to sag, and also the extra width can mean there's less material to register on the fence, by the time it gets to the cut line if that makes sense.
Happily the Excel rails are back in stock. There is a curious warning about the 700mm rails not being compatible with the 1400mm one. Apparently they are made by different manufacturers and the thickness of the profile is slightly different. I need a couple of short rails as my 1400 ones are often rather awkward for smaller cuts so I have bought a 1400 which I will cut in half so I can join the extra short lengths to a Festool1400mm rail (I hope) if I need a little more than 1400. At £35 with free delivery after adding a few spring clamps it seems a very good deal.
Yes, the 700mm rails that come with the saw are like the older Parkside saw and rails; Because of this the Excel plunge saw wont fit on the Excel 1400mm rails. Madness. 🤷♂️
@@10MinuteWorkshop Hi Peter. It was the comment that the two rails won't join rather than compatibility with the saw that concerned me. I need a couple of short rails but might want to join them onto my 1400mm Festool rail occasionally so I hope that cutting a 1400 Excel rail in half will allow me to do this.
The WEN rail is identical to the Makita rail and reasonably priced on Amazon. Another reviewer found no improvement on the more expensive Powertec rail.
Really useful video. Particularly liked the pdf of the Festool rail profile but a Makita one would be useful too. As a hobby diy er a Festool as much as I would love one seemed hard to justify so I bought an Erbauer. The cuts were good but the anti kick back is fiddly as are the 700mm rails. But there is a deal on 1400 Makita rails and I wonder if they work with the Erbauer, hence looking for a pdf of the profile.
Thanks Peter ! I was like oh no he's lost his mind 😂 ,great idea the cheapest Makita rail in see about £54.45 I can't imagine them selling much of the copies and £50 what's the point of buying it ! What you paid I would certainly consider it at that price ! Thanks
Thanks Peter - even though I know about your guide rail sample pack, I was still a bit shocked when you cut it! 🤣🤣 Really helpful video for me as you know, and has consolidated my opinion about buying another festool rail instead of the slight compromise (but cheaper) makita. Thanks very much! 👍🏻👍🏻
Like others I've fallen foul of the Excel 2 x 700 incompatibility with Makita. However I'm using a Makita 7601 regular circular saw in conjunction with the recommended rail adaptor, and if approximately 17mm of black plastic it trimmed-off the two protuberances on the 'motor side' of the adaptor it looks like it may well work and retain its integrity. But I'm close to spending nearly as much as the proper item, and ending-up with something which may be a bit of a lash-up. Should have learned this lesson by now at my stage of life, but can't stop myself always chasing to low £££ option.
Metabo have a rail that seems to be a love child between festool and mafell. It has the raised rib that the saw rides on in the middle but no t-slot on the outside. It does use the mafell joining bar though. I've heard that the metabo plunge saw doesn't snug up on the makita rail but it does on the festool and now I know why due t the difference in the width of the rib between the two. It is interesting that your festool saw also didn't snug up on the makita rail either.
@@10MinuteWorkshop there is a distinct lack of UK reviews of the metabo saw so I would be very interested if you could get one to review. I've had enough of watching German videos with auto translate subtitles. Robin clevett has one but his review was brief and seemed a sponsored video
Thanks! I tend not to promote my videos there as the mods can get a bit antsy about all that - but if a member wanted to shout it out for me... 🤔🤷♂️👌😂
When cutting melamine using Makita track saw and rail, it toes-in slightly at the start of the score cut. To get around this I have to use sacrificial piece at the start. I guess this is due to the track sagging vertically down and creating wobble in the track saw. Is anyone experiencing this with Makita?
Only time I’ve had something like that was when I was trying to make a cut with a rail that was a bit too short and had the saw hanging off the back of the rail; that allowed the saw to move a little when plunging. That’s the only time I’ve had this though. 🤷♂️👍
hi peter i am only just getting into diy/woodwork as a hobby and have been looking at the excel plunge saw as they have it on offer and was wondering if you know anything about what it's like or could recommend one . i quite like the look of the erbauer also thanks.
Thanks Clayton. I don’t know anything about the Excel I’m sorry. I’m a big fan If the excel rails, and I’ve approached them to ask about review samples, but have heard nothing in return. My go-to entry level saw remains the MacAllister - there are many videos in the tracksaw workshop playlist. The erbauer is a good saw, but has an odd blade size - which erbauer don’t even sell themselves as a spare part - so I wouldn’t really recommend it, unfortunately. Again, I review this it the TW playlist. 👍👍
Well, as I already own a scheppach plunge saw my quest for additional rails is now over. I've made a decision against the Evolution set and for a pair of 1400 scheppach rails. I had the chance to buy two new KITY 1400 rails for 39 € each directly from Scheppach. KITY is a daughter brand of Scheppach. The glide strips are green instead of blue, but who cares. 39 € was a real hot deal, as the cheapest seller for scheppach rails here in Germany was the "Bauhaus" chain for 49 €, all others were way above the 60 € mark. When I randomly checked the original Scheppach store and saw the kity labeled rails for 39 € I made the decision in a split second, no pondering involved. I've bought a set of bessey rail clamps to accompany the rails, but I'm still missing a rail bag - and perhaps a second rail connector for the second underlying T-track of the scheppach rails. There's a disadvantage with those scheppach rails: the splinter guard is plain crap. The glue doesn't stick and the rubber is way too wobbly. Therefore I've ordered 5 meters of festool splinter guard as a replacement, that should do the trick.
Hi Matthias. Yes, I used the Aldi branded Scheppach saw and rails in my 'Tracksaw Workshop' series - there's a playlist with them in order if you haven't seen it already. The scheppach rails are problematic generally as they are unusually wide, but I fixed the splinter-guards with thicker rubber strip I found through an eBay seller; I tried the Makita strips, but found they weren't thick enough. 👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop I saw all your track saw videos long ago - but well before the first parkside video came out, and because of your videos I was quite sure that a scheppach plunge saw - properly adjusted, without any manufacturing flaws and with a replacement blade - would be quite sufficient for me. The festool replacement splinter guard fits nicely, I've already successfully tried this myself on the two 700 tracks after I read about this on the blog of Heiko Rech, a german master carpenter who also has some interesting track saw videos.
Just looking at this again as I have been having the exact problem with the TS55 and the Evolution rail. Basically when making long mitre cuts to make a "waterfall" table as we all know the TS55 will tip over when at 45 degrees. So it is necessary to keep very positive pressure on the sole plate to keep the saw flat. Putting the pressure in the wrong place will cause the saw to rock on the track just a little, ruining the cut. I plan to buy some more low-friction tape and put an additional strip in the empty channel, to see if this resolves the problem.
Yes, that would be a pain. If the additional glide strips don't help then something like the Anti-tip from Bisch Basch Bosch - ua-cam.com/video/hpJXwEJkgpQ/v-deo.html - would do it, but he's out of stock of the Festool now. 🤷♂️
I noted the pdf did not record the vertical measurements . Is that something that should be added ? I have an old 90's FESTOOL model ATF 55 EB and have been looking to get some replacement rail .
Can you eventually do a video on replacement blades for the Festool TS 55? I'd like to know if there are other blades that are just as effective as Festool, but cheaper.
I have the erbauer saw and rails, does anyone know what rails are compatible with it? I don’t like joining the two small rails and I cannot seem to find anywhere I can get additional rails from. Thanks!
Thanks, yes, I’ve been told that the Erbauer track is the same as Makita / Excel. I have the Erbauer on order for another video, will be taking a look at that soon. 👍
The Evolution glide strip issue might actually be beneficial if you use a Bosch saw since it has a different base and would otherwise only run on one strip and therefore tip a little. Also, there is a German manufacturer of rails called Youtool which offers FT-style rails up to 5m for affordable prices, excluding shipping that is. They lack the outer T-track for accessories though but they offer a 90° thingy... EDIT: Metabo also makes FT-style tracks, I just don't know how compatible they are.
@@10MinuteWorkshop Andreas Kalt made a video about using FT tracks for a GKT55. ua-cam.com/video/xPIncODinFM/v-deo.html At 07:25 he explains the adaptations he had to make to get it to run smoothely.
@@10MinuteWorkshop Thank you so much btw for making all those TS/PS vids. One saves a lot of time in research in order to replace one's Bosch track which might or might no have been somewhat damaged in a very stupid kick back incident due to an unsupported workpiece on a concrete floor...
I just bought a Powertec 55 inch rail for my Festool TS 75 track saw and it works perfectly. HOWEVER, it is not compatible with the guide rail attachment for the Festool Carvex jigsaws. There is a "lip" that prevents the guide for the Carvex from sitting on the guide rail. I am now exploring ways to cut that "lip" off. I wanted a Festool 32 inch guide rail to complement my 55 and 108 inch rails. The Powertec 55 inch rail was $65 and I always intended to cut it down to 32 inches and have already done so. The 32 inch Festool rail was $98. I now have a 32 inch and a 23 inch guide rail though I see little or no use for the 23 inch part.
We don’t get powertec here in the UK but it sounds like a clone of the Makita pattern rail - same lip that gets in the way. I did a video about How to Trim a GuideRail, and why you’d want to! [video 468] here - ua-cam.com/video/QqTJ4SrRD1M/v-deo.html
I prefer to pay more for Makita. So I bought two and I using them with Metabo. I think it is better decision. Maybe in the future I buy saw from Makita....
Interesting! However you didn’t mention Bosch much and it appeared to me that you took Festool as the de facto standard. Well of course that is your personal favourite.
As I say in the video, Festool *is* the defacto standard - all saws will run in their rails. I don’t mention the Bosch much because there’s not much to say; it’s made by Mafell to their proprietary pattern, and you can only buy it from Bosch or Mafell. And Festool isn’t my ‘favourite’ but certainly, it’s what I chose to use when I started out buying ‘proper’ tools, and I’ve had no reason to change, despite its many faults. As I said in the Festool/Mafell video, if I were starting again I’d probably go with Mafell. 🤷♂️
Interesting stuff, though I wish you'd explore Dewalt rails a bit more. I have a DCS520 and two 1.5m rails but do find it a bit limited in compatibility with other systems. Things like Dewalt's 17mm rib, the joining bar, right-angle attachments, using the rails for routers, with benchdogs, etc. It's all hard to find info and complex to figure out yourself..
Hello Peter, good timing with the guide rail vid. thanks as I’m contemplating buying a track saw, mainly for cutting down full sheets to make it easier to manhandle onto the table saw. I’ve managed to avoid wearing the green and grey suit for sometime, but having bought my first Festool tool, I’m beginning to get sucked in by the ‘system’ ! It seems that all rails are compared to the Festool and fall short with various niggles. I have noticed that you cut your sheets with the lr32 2.4m which by having the holes drilled increases it’s versatility for router use. Is that successful or is longer necessary ? As a hobbyist, I only want to buy one long rail to complement the 1400 which comes with the saw. Enjoying your wardrobe build too, but don’t hang your tools up when it’s done ! Alex
Hi Alex. Haha, yes - the slippery slope, lol! And yes, all 'equivalent' rails have some niggles that make them slightly incompatible; as mentioned here, Makita come closest, but the anti-tipping lip gets in the way of some things. Yes, I've used the 2400 LR32 rail for the odd long cut, and it works OK, but I do wish they made a 2440 or 2500 version! But yes, having the holes definitely increases the versatility, especially if you ever need to make the odd large bookcase or wardrobe with adjustable shelves. When I was first working with Festool, I bought the 3-metre makita rail as it was about 1/3 of the price of the equivalent Festool 2400 rail; these days the prices are much more competitive, and the 'holey' 2400 rail made more sense. 👍
![Same blade, different saw = different story! [video #284]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/jR25DirM34E/mqdefault.jpg)
![Same blade, different saw = different story! [video #284]](/img/tr.png)
![Pocket-money Rail Hinge [video 497]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/sHj5G6t1qvY/mqdefault.jpg)
I use the makita saw and rail. And the 3m one is an absolute beast for doing sheet goods. I also have a router adapter and i just love it. Only downside with these rails is that you can’t trust the splinterguards for measurements. I always measure away or to the alluminium and add or subtract that set offset.
Instead of that, just plunge the saw on the rail without it being turned on so the teeth are touching the material, and roll it forward. They’ll. leave little marks, you’ll see exactly where the cut will be.
Hmmm 🤔 should plunge saws have shadow/laser lines too 😁
"I like the smell of fresh cut rail in the morning!" - You made my day!
😂👍👍 Actually meant to say ‘...the smell of freshly cut Festool in the morning.” 🤷♂️😂👍👍
Peter absolutely love your video’s. I’m a Brit living in the Northwest of the US and have recently decided to restart my woodworking hobby. Having dropped a small fortune on Festool I made a recent discovery. So Amazon recently starting promoting the Powertec brand for shop supplies. I’m not sure if there is a relationship with Amazon. The point - They sell two 55’ rails plus 2 connectors for approx $130. They work great!
Thanks Omar! Wow, they sound like great value! 👍👍
I've been very happy with my Powertec rails and Makita saw.
Thank you Peter for that, informative as ever, tutorial. Having watched your previous series on the 'plunge saw wars', I kept my eyes peeled for the Evolution solution. I already owned the Makita plunge saw, which I bought as a package with two guide rails, the bag and two clamps for less than £400.
Initially, I was tempted by the 3m rail as the Makita rails don't seem to connect all that well. And whilst this has not really had any impact on the accuracy of the cuts - can't blame the rails for everything - there is a distinct clicking as the saw travels from one rail to the other. On top of this, they tend to gradually drift apart if you have to perform repeated cuts and are constantly moving the tracks. I really think there should have been an option for two joining strips, as there is on the Evolution, making alignment more reliable, and the connection more secure.
When the Evolution deal you mention came up on a special for £59, I just went ahead and bought them. I then did what your fellow UA-camr at The Strawbyte Workshop suggested, and cut one of the Makita rails into two lengths 800mm/600mm making them easier to use on kitchen worktops and in smaller spaces, where the 1400 was just a tad too long.
Nice! You can use two joining bars in the Makita and Evo rails- it’s one up, one down with the Makita - like Festool - but completely do-able. 👍👍
I was wondering about that 800/600. The Detroit guide rail comes at 1400 only, seems likely to be cumbersome for most work. 700 is just blah.
Best opening ever. :-)
Thanks! 😆👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop really cut through the jargon.
Very informative and helpful video. I was contemplating getting a tacksaw and went for the 36v Makita....expensive as I'm not in the trade but well worth it. I saved some money buying the evolution rails which advertise compatability so I bought the 2x70cm kit and plan to get the 2x1.4m one at some point. They work perfectly with my Makita so far.
Same here.. after lots of comparison and review, I did not want an ultra cheap track saw that flexes (Ryobi, WEN) and would not pay the ultra premium cost of the Festool. The Makita 36V was the best mid-line model IMHO. The track cost is too high ($99 per 55" track), so I ordered mine without one and got the Powertec ones for far less... two 55" tracks, a nice bag, a quality right angle adapter and pair of track clamps, all for under $200.
Thanks, one of your best product videos yet!!! My problem is how to either purchase or create an appropriate guide rail for 4x8 sheet goods without spending over $300 to do it. I have a Makita saw, which I am moderately happy with. If I had to do it over I would definitely go with Festool considering how often I use it, even being a hobbyist, I use it almost every day for something. Makita's track is $300 and I am afraid to look at what Festool wants for theirs. Anyway, thanks again, stay safe and healthy.
Thanks! I bought the Makita 3-metre rail way back for about £120 / $180. Don’t know what they cost now, but $300 seems high. 😱👍
Awesome content! I know this is years old, but I am a Milwaukee tool guy. I have Milwaukee track saw and use on my mft 2 and with my two 55” Milwaukee tracks. They are fully compatible. Milwaukee is popular here is Nothing America, Canada
Thanks! I’ll be adding Milwaukee into the mic when I do an updated 2024 version of this video. 👍
Peter, great vid as per usual. Followed your advice and got myself the Evolution 2800 set for my Titan saw. Couldn’t be happier, I can now rip full length 8 x 4 sheets accurately with ease. Many thanks for your help. Keep the vids coming!
Cheers Jay! 👍👍
Great video Peter. You just saved me a small fortune. I just ordered the Evolution Rails with the plunge saw.
Thanks Garry! 👍
Peter, I bought that excel guide rail 3 weeks ago, it was cheaper to buy a guide rail and squeeze clamps separately then the kit they offered. When I turned up and I first put it to use I went to buy another and like your self I was mortified to find it out of stock. Good informational video 👍👍
Yes! They’re really crap at bundles! 😂 👍👍Thanks James’
For anyone in the TrackSaw market this is the defacto guide to rails... nice one Peter
Thanks Paul! 👍
That thumbnail is a thing of beauty
Thank you! A slight break from the usual, but I think it worked OK. 👌👍👍
Great video as ever Peter. Never had any problems with tipping on my Evolution track saw and rails. The set was great value for money. Really pleased with the saw itself and the set too.
Thanks Martin! 👍👍
How about putting another piece of the tape they use along that side as it looks like here is clearance
Thanks for an excellent, informative video. Just what I needed to help decide whether I can adapt my current old DeWalt rails (one is actually an original Elu!) for use with my new Makita dhs680 saw (I'm doubting that it's worth doing, mainly because they lack the integrated glide strips but also the locating rib is slightly wider at nearly 17mm). Excel seem to be going at a sensible price at the moment, so maybe that's the route to go. Lots of other useful ideas in the feedback below too. Great channel. Thanks again, Peter.
I'm using Lidl's Parkside plunge saw and evolution 2×1400 guide rail. Amazing
Great value kit! 👍👍
I own the titan and now I own the festool .. yeah man .. what a difference. I'm using the evolution rail. It's great so far. Really happy.
I modified a Makita guide rail slightly to fit my Parkside. I cut off the anti-tipping lip with an aluminium cutting blade so the Parkside would fit in the channels. But then found the splinter guard ended shy of the blade, so replaced it with a 2mm x 25mm rubber strip and trimmed to size. Now I have a Makita guide rail that can use all the aftermarket jigs on my Parkside.
Just incase anyone has an erbauer saw, the excell track works great with it. Anti tip works & saw glides along track. Snugs up great. Only thing is, I haven't tried to join them yet.
I've joined them for a full board cut and alignment is superb 👍🏻
Thanks for this Video. I just picked up the 2 x 700 Excel rails for £32:00 delivered inc VAT. Excellent value.
Just be aware that the 2x700mm Excel rails are not the same pattern at the 1x1500mm rail I talk about in this video. They’re more like the Parkside rails, not the Makita pattern.
From the video description:-
“NB: Excel is an own-brand of Tools4Trade. The Excel 1.5metre rail is compatible with Makita and Festool, but their own Excel saw seems to be a clone of the Lidl Parkside, so the 2x700mm rails bundled with the Excel saw, or available as accessories have all the same issues that the Parkside saw and rails have.”
@@10MinuteWorkshop I have a festool saw so I think they should be OK. If not they take returns. Thx
Amazing content today Peter! You definitely had me shocked in the intro. I'm a big fan of your track saw videos. One product I would enjoy watching you review is the Kreg track saw and guide rails!
Thanks from Canada!
Thanks Daniel! If Kreg ever decide to sell their saw here in the UK, I’ll certainly take a look. 👍👍
Thanks for the tip on excel rails, I don’t need any more rail sections, but their joining bars are very good value at 10£ posted for 2 sets.. Makita ones are more than that for 1..
Does the DeWalt plunge saw fit on excel tracks?
Peter, great channel, just found you. That was interesting about Mafell making the Bosch rails and connector. And they are _identical_ which was a surprise for me. I have an older Bosch PKS-54 so will go for the Bosch (=Mafell) solution. All the best, Rob in Switzerland.
Thanks Rob, and welcome to the channel! Yes, Mafell make some of the parts for Bosch as well, but Bosch actually manufacturer the saw themselves. 👍👍
Hi Peter, after watching you David Stanton & Ron Paulk I felt that I needed a Plunge Saw but the cheapest I could get at Total Tools before Christmas was a Detroit (Total Tools Makita anti-tipping). So for $399 it has a 2mm scribing cut button by rotating a dial to scribe/Cut or replace blades it came with dust bag/2 joiners top/bottom/2 clamps/1400mm track with 165mm Plunge Saw & I bought another 1400mm track for $99. In Australia, it is about a bit under about a 1/3 of the Festool & 1/2 of the Mikita in price.
I am very impressed with it and it made making an 850mm wide x 800mm long x 195mm high Ramp at around 10Deg very easy.
Sounds great! And sound very much like the first cuts I made with my plunge saw! 👍👍
I bought one yesterday, it's still in its packaging. I bought the kit which adds the 1400m rail to the body, bot neither clamps nor dust bag.
I do plan on getting a "better" blade from Bunnings, most likely Diablo or Italian Irwin. It seem Italians are especially good at making cutting stuff, and/or persuading the world they do.
Great compare Peter! Never did a so wide look over the available clones. And also a great supporter idea! Was shocking to see you the guide rail cutting in half :D
Thanks Mathias! 👍
Important update on my previous comment - Excel 700mm guide rails won't work with a Makita DHS680 and guide rail adaptor. I've just acquired a pack of two 700mm Excel guide rails, and these are not the same as the standard Makita guide rail profile and won't work with my Makita DHS 680 and guide rail adaptor (though perhaps they might work with a Makita track saw). It appears that Excel either offer alternative profiles or have changed their design since Peter made the video. Either way, this 700mm rail profile differs from the Makita profile in two important respects: a) the channel on the edge of these rails is a 'c' section (not a 'u' section as per the Makita rail) with the 'c' opening facing towards the centre of the rail. This means it is not possible to use a second connector bar when connecting the rails together; b) more significantly for using a Makita guide rail adaptor, the top of the 'c' channel is approximately 10mm above the surface of the rail and about 4mm higher than the centre channel, so a Makita guide rail adaptor will not sit properly on the rail without modification as the edge of the adaptor that would normally run over the Makita outer 'u' channel rides 4mm higher on the Excel outer 'c' channel. It looks like Makita rails are the right option for the DHS680 saw/guide rail adaptor after all!! I can provide photo's if needed.
Thanks for this and your more recent plunge saw video peter, I’ve ended up going for Mcallister saw that come with 2 x smaller rails, the excel 2 x long rails and makita clamps. Looking forward to testing them out.
Have fun - and let me know how you get on! 👍
I've always stuck with the festool rails for whatever reason, if it was matching logos I don't know. Looks like it was a good decision as the accuracy looks to be the best by far out of the lot.
Super useful videos Peter you convinced me to pick up a track saw. I’ve ended up with the cheap silverline (looks identical to the lumberjack saw) for £60 off Amazon warehouse which came with two 700mm rails, can’t complain for my occasional use!
I did get the long excel rail also as they were £45 still cheapest a for long rail and the site did the makita splinter guard for £5...
...However one word of warning for anyone with the silverline or lumberjack (or wider track saws), they’re a touch wider than festool on the left and as such foul on the anti tipping lip of the excel/makita rail.
Having weighed up the cost of returning and other rails I will be angle grinding that lip off.
Good to know, thanks! Sounds like you picked up a bargain too!👍👍
Just the video I needed :) Got the Evolution 2800 rails for my Erbauer track saw, couldn't be happier - thanks Peter!
Glad to hear it, thanks Alasdair! 👍👍
I started my Festool madness with a TS55 and two 1400 rails - absolutely hated faffing about to join them and never trusted the straightness, so I bought a 3000 rail and never looked back. Expensive but efficient! I also have a Makita saw and the rails that came with it - both rails have a slight bow in them, making it a pain to line up as it won't sit flat on the workpiece unless you lean on the middle or put the saw on it. The saw is still in use (on a permanent cross-cut station) but on a (cut down) Festool track. Lesson learned; don't spoil the ship for a ha'porth of tar. If I had a budget saw I'd probably be happy with budget rails, but every horribly expensive Festool tool and accessory that I've bought seems to have a little bit of magic built into it. Just sayin' ;-)
Hey Jeremy. Yes, I don’t disagree - I bought the 3metre Makita rail back when they were about 1/3 the price of the Festool. It was a good one, thankfully - wouldn’t have fancied sending it back! 😂👍
I had the same issue with my Makita rails, I sent them back twice before I got a decent set. Shout out to its tools for quickly sorting me out!
Agree wholeheartedly with that. In the workshop the 3 metre rail makes life so much easier. I liked it so much that I bought a 1.9 metre for crosscutting 8x4s because I like the extra length to run in and out of the cut. The 1.4s are now relegated to the substitutes bench.
Fantastic video! I have the Parkside saw and 4 pcs. of their rails. I plan to make some modifications to make them work really well.
Thanks! 👍👍
Hi Peter, thank you for another geat video. But I have one thing to point out. Festool rail sticks to the wood so clamping is not necessary. My other track is Pattfield (Hornbach market brand, 30 euro for 1400mm track), and is also Festool compatible, but it slips on the wood like crazy. I replaced glide strips and splinter guard with Makita spares, so the track now works pretty well now, but with stock soft strips on the bottom it is not any close to Festool grip. I cut the track to 800mm lenght for smaller jobs. And it works with handy Bosch 12V circular saw as well.
Yes, Festool have the most ‘grippy’ rails of any I’ve used, though Mafell comes pretty close. 👍👍
To avoid misalignment and unwanted/unnecessary bumpy glides when running the tracksaws along the joined tracks…
…one should avoid the joint between joined tracks (even from the same make) to be completely closed; it's (much) better to leave a smal 1mm - ≤2,5mm gap between them.
This will avoid a bumps when the edges of then joints are nor a 1005 in line as well as that it makes alignement (and thus an almost 100% straight track) easier to achieve.
Although most manufacturers/traders don't seem to bother, others s.a. Evolution Powertools even mention such specifically in their manuals:
THE TRACK
The Evolution Track system consists of two (2) or three (3) precision extruded alloy sections.
(Fig. 18) These sections must be joined together using the joining bars supplied. (Fig. 19)
To Join The Sections Together (Fig. 19):
• Slide the bars into the ‘T’ slots found on the under surface of the extrusions.
• Ensure that an equal length (approximately) of the bars is inserted into both of the sections to be joined together.
• Tighten the socket headed grub-screws to secure the sections together.
IMPORTANT NOTES
Note: It is important to leave a small gap between joined sections of between 1 to 2mm. This will ensure that when a circular saw is
placed upon and used with an Evolution Cross Cutting Track it will slide smoothly along the entire track length.
SAW TO TRACK COMMISSIONING Note: The following guidelines refer to Evolution circular saws and the Evolution Cutting Track. Consult the information supplied by the saw and/or the cutting track manufacturers if a non-Evolution circular saw or cutting track is to be used.
Before the first use of the Evolution Cutting Track the Splinter Guard Strip (Fig. 21) needs to match the saw and blade.
een vriendelijke groet,
Simon Koorn
I really like the flexibility of having two 700mm over the 1400mm rail, for smaller cuts it's less of a faff lining it up as you don't have a metre of track in your way, and it's a lot easier to carry around.
In fact, I've taken them on the bus with me!
Yep, there’s always a place for a smaller rail. But having one longer one is pretty handy too. 👍👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop I suppose it depends on what you use the track saw for, for the few times that I've needed a longer track, I've just done it in multiple passes. The rest of my longer cuts are done on the tablesaw as they're usually too narrow to cut safely anyway
Have to agree - in similar vein I have 2 of Axminster's Pro Grip clamps in 610 & 1270 lengths for convenience and handling - I've yet to graduate to a plunge-saw. BTW must be summer, no T-shirt & shorts this week:-)
What a hassle to line up a 1600 (Bosch) rail for a 200mm cut... Bump it off the mark three times only by setting the saw onto the rail...
"smell of guide rail"! brilliant!
😆👍👍
Thanks for the comparison. I am new to plunge saws and guide rails. Have an Aldi saw and just bought a set from Evolution with 2x 700mm rails, clamps, joiners and a bag for £50 direct from Evolution. Thanks for the issue with the low friction strips I will ensure that I try to keep pressure over the strips. The cut edges of the rails are a little rough which is disappointing as I assume they are machine cut, I may fettle these for a smoother joint and I agree the splinter guard is a little bulky.
Am using the Titan saw and evolution rails and find it is brilliant
Yep, good combination! 👍👍
Such a perfect review. Unfortunately the budget rails available here are Wen and sometimes Grizzly. Thanks for the video - enjoyable as usual.
Informative as usual. In the wild axxx guess department. I can think of a reason why no one has copied the Festool rail despite the fact the patent has expired. Given Festools corporate culture I think you would have to fairly certain you would be sued. IP lawyers fees to other lawyers fees are Festool prices to Aldi prices. All they have to do is allege that the consumers are being misled by the knock off and years of extremely expensive litigation can follow. This may be cynical but it is an informed opinion.
Just out of interest was the patent comment a bit of coat trailing?
Hi Peter, I enjoyed your video very much. Just to throw in to mix, I recently bought Metabo KS55FS with FS 160 rail.
The bundle costs around 200 euros.
I guess its oltder model but I could not resist for that price.
The rails looks like "bosh" but I did not do the measurements.
Also, you can get 800mm rail for 60 euros on amazon.de which is close to youtool which costs 40 Euros.
Have a good day.
Thanks Pavel! Great price. 👌👍👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop The downside is that it's really hard to find any accessories. Peter would you be so kind and measure the height of space in which the clamps should be inserted? At my Metabo rail it's 6.5mm. I am trying to assert whether I can use bosh (or other) clamps. Thank you very much.
As I have a number of other Dewalt tools I bought the Dewalt track saw and rail and have been very happy with it. I realise its not the ‘standard’ rail; would have liked to have seen it covered in a bit more detail
I'm sure, but in all honesty there isn't much to say about them; they've gone completely their own way with the double-edged rail which causes all kinds of compatibility issues with accessories, and while the 2.6 metre rail is well priced, no other saw can use it. 🤷♂️
I have the powertec rails got 2 55" for $110 with couplers that are identical with Makita
You are the Tracksaw King, I love my Titan I am making a replacement roof cover for my friend’s pond equipment enclosure and needed to cut the fall for the 75x50 timber bearers. I set my table saw up only to find I couldn’t set out my angles so got my track saw out and it cut both bearers perfectly. Love the saw and the tracks think I might now need to replace the splinter guard as is was 50mm cut and there was lots of black bits in the sawdust and there was no burn out. Thanks for your advice on getting the Titan. Keep up the great work.
Cheers Ray! I was using my Titan just the other day - still my favourite entry-level saw, even after all this time! 👍👍
One of my dewalt rails guide bar is bigger than the other one that I have. Causes a step when running the saw along it
I’ve enjoyed my festool but I find the spilter rubber peels off at the edges and is a pain to replace as cleaning the glue off to get good bonding for the new
So many guide rails... 😳
Good thing they don't take up a great deal of room. 👌🏽
Great comparison vid, mate 👍🏽
Cheers Bill! 👍
Perfectly timed! I spent the last 3 days scratching my head whether to splash out for Festool or go with Evolution guide rail for my ts55
And the winner is...??? 👍👍
Hi Peter / all. Not sure if this has been mentioned before. After some testing today I can confirm adding EzyGlideTape (the solution for sticking curtain rings) to the Evolution rails eliminates wobble on my new version Parkside PT55 1200 D2 - a relatively inexpensive fix at around £10 delivered from Amazon. Only just got some, put it on and made some test cuts (accurate) so not sure about long term wear etc yet. Regards Ed
Hiya, sounds good. I'm assuming this was installed to create the missing left hand slider?
@@45KevinRyes, a few months in and still working fine. I use the evolution rails for sheet materials and often joined together. Not having to worry about tipping the blade when cutting in awkward positions is a real plus.
Ozito is widely available through Bunnings across Australia and NZ. Both Ozito and Parkside names are owned by Einhell. I think Einhell products can be bought here, bot not from anyone near me.
Curiously, Einhell has a 1300 (universal across Australia) number, and Aldi's WorkZone shares that number.
Fantastic video covering everything.
Thank you, that's very much appreciated! 🙌
Evolution Power Tools ST2800-G2 Circular Saw Guide Rail / Track | Universal Fits Most Brands Makita, Bosch, Festool | 2.8m (2x 1400mm ) With Self-Aligning Connector Bars | Incl. End Stop Accessory....This is the new version of the Evolution Rails , comes with 3 glide strips . Ive just bought the new Festool TSV 60 With Scorer blade and I bought these to use with this rail as It needs a dedicated track due to the scoring facility . Ive yet to put them against my Festool equivelents but the T slots are right way up . Amazon price was £84.99 You get 2 x 1400 rails , Saw stop Jointing bars , Allen key with holder , 2 new type clamps and a carry case , all neatly packed in a sturdy box ....Im a Festool nut andf have been for yoears but I recon these rails will do the same job for a lot lower money or even as a back up rail set .
👍 ua-cam.com/video/HtJFtP-kDPI/v-deo.html
Another top video, Having now gone down the 'tracksaw' route when buying the Aldi kit for £29.99! fitted my first Kitchen with it this week, Impressed with it TBH, cut the worktops fine and the cutouts for the sink/hob, grip on the track is good impressive for the money! Having been looking at upgrading, Did I notice you using the Bosch rail in a previous video? I think I'm going to go for the Bosch as their Router works on the same rail and I like the way the rails 'join' (had a good look at the D&M tool show last yearish (I need a new mid range router as my Trend has died, Had it 20+ yrs) I think like you do yourself, pick a system and stick with it, it's not rocket science, Im a Makita fan but the Bosch kicks it ass on tracksaws IMO
Thanks! Yeah, the Aldi’s decent enough - especially at £30! - but I found I needed to do a lot more to it to get it cutting well. I had /have the Mafell on loan, but the Bosch looks good! 👍👍
I have a Detroit tracksaw. It looks a lot like Makita track, it has that lip. Same overall width as the Festool.
Good info here as always! If I could justify the cost of a ts55 it would be the saw I own but just setting out on this journey I went down the park side route! Seeing the issues with the evolution rail is interesting and I’m a little let down it doesn’t work with the square from last weeks video but I think I’m going to go with them anyway as I really want a single rail to do cross cuts with so the 1400 will be perfect. Keep one of the shorter original rails for small cuts and portability and I’m sorted. I don’t know if I’m just heavy handed or anyone else has found it but when I first tightened down the joining rail it blistered out the top of the track meaning I had to swap them round end to end so the saw would travel along it!
There’s a fix coming very soon for the evolution rails and the benchdogs rail square. FYI there are some very good deals going around on the festool saw and rail package. 👍👍
great video. i bought the evolution rails after seeing them recommended in one of your earlier vids and I love the rails for the price and size. my only criticism for my pair is; i believe the ends of mine weren't cut at perfect 90's and when joining them together i have to leave a maybe 1mm gap to one side to straighten them up and avoid the saw binding when i go over the join. regarding 7:10, i've also had the issue with the saw tipping to the left if i don't keep pressure towards the blade side but I had just put it down to the base of my cheap lidl saw not being completely flat (you can see some gaps when placing a ruler against the face) but it probably is just as attributable to the point you make about both strips being to the right of the rib - having one on either side does seem like a better design.
Thanks! Interesting - I have many years is plunge saw use, and I can imagine what a pain that must be for the saw to tip like that! 👍👍
Peter , why don't you just re-cut them to 90° ? 🤔
😎👍☘🍺
@Fitzpatrick, out of all us Peters I'm probably the least confident about my ability to cut a perfect 90 into the track :)
@@peter-gn8ey "if at first you don't succeed try try again " .. 🙄😂
Go on Pete... give it a go.. 🤨
😎👍☘🍺
I have the set of two 1,400 mm Evolution rails in an Evolution bag. The instructions tell you to leave a 1 mm gap when joining them so they must recognise that the ends aren’t perfectly square (mine are slightly out of square, too). Don’t mess about trying to trim the ends dead square - just follow the instructions! Or should that be the classic ‘RTFM’?
Nicely done, I have been wondering about the absolute compatibility between rails for a while - I have the Erbauer saw with the included 2 x 700 rails, I also happened across the Excel 1500 rail for £27 a week or so back, at the price I took the chance and glad I did, it works a treat - Cant say for sure it's 100% the same but the saw glides fine and the splinter guards align so it's good enough for me.
I Look forward to your Erbauer review as I have no comparison for mine (except a friends Festool which is no comparison at all) - I am only a hobbyist but I had to change the blade before my Erbauer would cut true, with the original blade it veered off the splinter guide 1 - 2 mm every now and then unless I cut VERY slowly (but no perceivable wobble or movement in the blade when stationary) - Very strange but new blade and splinter guards and all seems good.
Good info, thanks! Yes, I’ve had a few positive reports on the Erbauer recently, looking forward to getting my hands on it. 👍👍
Thanks for the Info. Just buying the Excel ones for my Erbauer after your recommendation.
Thanks for the the info... Iv just ordered the 2800 evolution rail from ffx.. For my erbauer track saw. Hope it works.
Great Video and very informative.... As a Newbe to all of this I find it amazing how many different products/tools there actually are out there. I didn't even know, well I am still not 100% sure, what the difference is between the Track Saw and the Circular saw.... other than the track :)
You have a new subscriber.... 2 thumbs up!
Thanks, and welcome! Try video #378, Skil saw or plunge saw - ua-cam.com/video/cV3DjNlZq8s/v-deo.html 👍👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop my new nickname from the wife is Square-eyes :)
@@22illingworth That is so 1960s.
Great video. Really appreciate the details on the DeWalt. Maybe I can have my cake and eat it, too, by buying the DeWalt saw and using Festool rails. Something for me to ponder and research more... 👍
Thanks! Yep, DeWalt’s a nice saw, I keep trying to pick one up used, but they always go for more than I’m prepared to pay. A healthy sign! 👍👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop I have the DeWalt saw and I'm about to buy some festool rails. I find the DeWalt rail has a large amount of flex, and is also very wide, so when used on an mft with dogs or a rail square, the flex can mess up the cut v often. Fine for long cuts but no good for using it as a an mft mitre saw
Chicken Dinnerz I have wondered if the wider rail would cause a problem. I thought the extra width might help with deflection on long cuts, but that’s good feedback from your experience. Thanks for sharing!
@@g1mpster it is good on long cuts, but for mft cross cuts like Peter does a lot it's not good as it's very happy to sag, and also the extra width can mean there's less material to register on the fence, by the time it gets to the cut line if that makes sense.
Chicken Dinnerz yup, makes sense. Really appreciate the feedback.
I use the new festool 55 feq. and the Makita rail guide because of its price.
"That's how it's supost to work rigth?"... nice good woodworking humor
😆 😂 👍
Haha...
For some reason I felt the need to say out allowed... what are you doing!!!!
Then it dawned on me... our fellow Peter knows what he is doing
Up to a point... 😂👍👍
Happily the Excel rails are back in stock. There is a curious warning about the 700mm rails not being compatible with the 1400mm one. Apparently they are made by different manufacturers and the thickness of the profile is slightly different. I need a couple of short rails as my 1400 ones are often rather awkward for smaller cuts so I have bought a 1400 which I will cut in half so I can join the extra short lengths to a Festool1400mm rail (I hope) if I need a little more than 1400. At £35 with free delivery after adding a few spring clamps it seems a very good deal.
Yes, the 700mm rails that come with the saw are like the older Parkside saw and rails; Because of this the Excel plunge saw wont fit on the Excel 1400mm rails. Madness. 🤷♂️
@@10MinuteWorkshop Hi Peter. It was the comment that the two rails won't join rather than compatibility with the saw that concerned me. I need a couple of short rails but might want to join them onto my 1400mm Festool rail occasionally so I hope that cutting a 1400 Excel rail in half will allow me to do this.
The WEN rail is identical to the Makita rail and reasonably priced on Amazon. Another reviewer found no improvement on the more expensive Powertec rail.
To add the Kreg Track is same width as festool but the middle t-slot track that faces down is about 1 inch or more away from the back.
Thanks! 👍👍
Really useful video. Particularly liked the pdf of the Festool rail profile but a Makita one would be useful too. As a hobby diy er a Festool as much as I would love one seemed hard to justify so I bought an Erbauer. The cuts were good but the anti kick back is fiddly as are the 700mm rails. But there is a deal on 1400 Makita rails and I wonder if they work with the Erbauer, hence looking for a pdf of the profile.
Thanks! I don’t own the Erbauer, but according to the Q&A section on Screwfix, it is compatible with Makita rails. 👍👍
What a good video. Great details and info sir
Thank you! 👍
Most people in the states are just getting acclimated to Lidl and Aldi as grocery stores. Wait till we find out the grocers make power tools as well!
👍👍
Thanks Peter ! I was like oh no he's lost his mind 😂 ,great idea the cheapest Makita rail in see about £54.45 I can't imagine them selling much of the copies and £50 what's the point of buying it ! What you paid I would certainly consider it at that price ! Thanks
Exactly! I could have shifted a lot of those at £27, but at £50, why bother?? 👍👍
wtf was that at the start .....😂😂😂😂. i love you sir ! this video really helped me
Thanks Peter - even though I know about your guide rail sample pack, I was still a bit shocked when you cut it! 🤣🤣
Really helpful video for me as you know, and has consolidated my opinion about buying another festool rail instead of the slight compromise (but cheaper) makita. Thanks very much! 👍🏻👍🏻
Thanks Matt! 😆👍👍
Like others I've fallen foul of the Excel 2 x 700 incompatibility with Makita. However I'm using a Makita 7601 regular circular saw in conjunction with the recommended rail adaptor, and if approximately 17mm of black plastic it trimmed-off the two protuberances on the 'motor side' of the adaptor it looks like it may well work and retain its integrity. But I'm close to spending nearly as much as the proper item, and ending-up with something which may be a bit of a lash-up. Should have learned this lesson by now at my stage of life, but can't stop myself always chasing to low £££ option.
Metabo have a rail that seems to be a love child between festool and mafell. It has the raised rib that the saw rides on in the middle but no t-slot on the outside. It does use the mafell joining bar though. I've heard that the metabo plunge saw doesn't snug up on the makita rail but it does on the festool and now I know why due t the difference in the width of the rib between the two. It is interesting that your festool saw also didn't snug up on the makita rail either.
Yes, interested in getting my hands on a Metabo, though I think the lack of a t-slot will compromise it in the accessories aftermarket.👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop there is a distinct lack of UK reviews of the metabo saw so I would be very interested if you could get one to review. I've had enough of watching German videos with auto translate subtitles. Robin clevett has one but his review was brief and seemed a sponsored video
I would love to see you have a look at the Kreg ACS system. Kreg should just send you one to check out. LOL
They’ve decided not to make it available here in the UK, unfortunately. 🤷♂️
4 years now...
It is time 4 an update 😊
It’s coming… 👍😆
Useful to know Peter. Would be a good shout out on the W.W.U.K. Forum.
Thanks! I tend not to promote my videos there as the mods can get a bit antsy about all that - but if a member wanted to shout it out for me... 🤔🤷♂️👌😂
Measured the Rutlands tracks - 1.4 m in two parts @£50 - in line with the Festool dimensions, but no outer accessory slot.
Yep, the Rutland’s the same pattern as the Lidl Parkside 👍👍
Neilson block plane. I’ve got one of those.
When cutting melamine using Makita track saw and rail, it toes-in slightly at the start of the score cut. To get around this I have to use sacrificial piece at the start. I guess this is due to the track sagging vertically down and creating wobble in the track saw. Is anyone experiencing this with Makita?
Only time I’ve had something like that was when I was trying to make a cut with a rail that was a bit too short and had the saw hanging off the back of the rail; that allowed the saw to move a little when plunging. That’s the only time I’ve had this though. 🤷♂️👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop thank you for your opinion
hi peter i am only just getting into diy/woodwork as a hobby and have been looking at the excel plunge saw as they have it on offer and was wondering if you know anything about what it's like or could recommend one .
i quite like the look of the erbauer also thanks.
Thanks Clayton. I don’t know anything about the Excel I’m sorry. I’m a big fan
If the excel rails, and I’ve approached them to ask about review samples, but have heard nothing in return. My go-to entry level saw remains the MacAllister - there are many videos in the tracksaw workshop playlist. The erbauer is a good saw, but has an odd blade size - which erbauer don’t even sell themselves as a spare part - so I wouldn’t really recommend it, unfortunately. Again, I review this it the TW playlist. 👍👍
I know I’m a little late to this party Peter, but do you have the Mafell still, and does it fit the Makita rails? Many thanks!
Well, as I already own a scheppach plunge saw my quest for additional rails is now over. I've made a decision against the Evolution set and for a pair of 1400 scheppach rails. I had the chance to buy two new KITY 1400 rails for 39 € each directly from Scheppach. KITY is a daughter brand of Scheppach. The glide strips are green instead of blue, but who cares. 39 € was a real hot deal, as the cheapest seller for scheppach rails here in Germany was the "Bauhaus" chain for 49 €, all others were way above the 60 € mark. When I randomly checked the original Scheppach store and saw the kity labeled rails for 39 € I made the decision in a split second, no pondering involved.
I've bought a set of bessey rail clamps to accompany the rails, but I'm still missing a rail bag - and perhaps a second rail connector for the second underlying T-track of the scheppach rails.
There's a disadvantage with those scheppach rails: the splinter guard is plain crap. The glue doesn't stick and the rubber is way too wobbly. Therefore I've ordered 5 meters of festool splinter guard as a replacement, that should do the trick.
Hi Matthias. Yes, I used the Aldi branded Scheppach saw and rails in my 'Tracksaw Workshop' series - there's a playlist with them in order if you haven't seen it already. The scheppach rails are problematic generally as they are unusually wide, but I fixed the splinter-guards with thicker rubber strip I found through an eBay seller; I tried the Makita strips, but found they weren't thick enough. 👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop I saw all your track saw videos long ago - but well before the first parkside video came out, and because of your videos I was quite sure that a scheppach plunge saw - properly adjusted, without any manufacturing flaws and with a replacement blade - would be quite sufficient for me. The festool replacement splinter guard fits nicely, I've already successfully tried this myself on the two 700 tracks after I read about this on the blog of Heiko Rech, a german master carpenter who also has some interesting track saw videos.
Don't know if it might help anyone but Rutland's and Triton saws work great on festool rails.
Thanks! Yes, the Rutlands is basically a dead ringer for the Parkside, and the Triton for the Titan. 👍👍
Hi Peter, Love your video!
In a desion to your video, have you tried the Triton rail? It should be compatible....
All the best from France, cheers!
Hi Claude-Pascal! The Triton rails are the same as the Makita, Erbauer, Titan etc… thanks! 👍
Just looking at this again as I have been having the exact problem with the TS55 and the Evolution rail. Basically when making long mitre cuts to make a "waterfall" table as we all know the TS55 will tip over when at 45 degrees. So it is necessary to keep very positive pressure on the sole plate to keep the saw flat. Putting the pressure in the wrong place will cause the saw to rock on the track just a little, ruining the cut. I plan to buy some more low-friction tape and put an additional strip in the empty channel, to see if this resolves the problem.
Yes, that would be a pain. If the additional glide strips don't help then something like the Anti-tip from Bisch Basch Bosch - ua-cam.com/video/hpJXwEJkgpQ/v-deo.html - would do it, but he's out of stock of the Festool now. 🤷♂️
Cutting a guide rail with a guide rail so so meta. 😂
😆😂👍👍
I noted the pdf did not record the vertical measurements . Is that something that should be added ? I have an old 90's FESTOOL model ATF 55 EB and have been looking to get some replacement rail .
Can you eventually do a video on replacement blades for the Festool TS 55? I'd like to know if there are other blades that are just as effective as Festool, but cheaper.
See ‘more about blades’ video #284 👍👍 Key blades & fixings -link in this video description - has worked very well for me. 👍👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop Thank you!
I have the erbauer saw and rails, does anyone know what rails are compatible with it? I don’t like joining the two small rails and I cannot seem to find anywhere I can get additional rails from. Thanks!
I don’t own one but I believe it’s the same track as the Titan is a Makita clone, so pretty much any Festool or Makita pattern rail should work ok. 👍
I wonder if there is some kind of track compatibility chart amongst all of the various manufacturers… 🤔
Interesting video and subject. As I looked away at the wrong moment I really thought that you had cut you rail. Fun! Thank you for this information.
Thanks Fits! And I really did cut my rail. 🤷♂️👍
Hi Peter, I have a TS55 and an Erbauer track saw and the rails match perfect, the Erbauer rails have the anti tilt, can I send you a photo to post
Ditto and you get the short ones so need to do Millard surgery.
Thanks, yes, I’ve been told that the Erbauer track is the same as Makita / Excel. I have the Erbauer on order for another video, will be taking a look at that soon. 👍
The Evolution glide strip issue might actually be beneficial if you use a Bosch saw since it has a different base and would otherwise only run on one strip and therefore tip a little.
Also, there is a German manufacturer of rails called Youtool which offers FT-style rails up to 5m for affordable prices, excluding shipping that is. They lack the outer T-track for accessories though but they offer a 90° thingy...
EDIT: Metabo also makes FT-style tracks, I just don't know how compatible they are.
Interesting - I’s the Bosch baseplate different time the Mafell then? I haven’t put the Mafell on the Evo rails - I’ll take a look later, thanks! 👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop Andreas Kalt made a video about using FT tracks for a GKT55. ua-cam.com/video/xPIncODinFM/v-deo.html
At 07:25 he explains the adaptations he had to make to get it to run smoothely.
@@10MinuteWorkshop Thank you so much btw for making all those TS/PS vids. One saves a lot of time in research in order to replace one's Bosch track which might or might no have been somewhat damaged in a very stupid kick back incident due to an unsupported workpiece on a concrete floor...
I just bought a Powertec 55 inch rail for my Festool TS 75 track saw and it works perfectly. HOWEVER, it is not compatible with the guide rail attachment for the Festool Carvex jigsaws. There is a "lip" that prevents the guide for the Carvex from sitting on the guide rail. I am now exploring ways to cut that "lip" off. I wanted a Festool 32 inch guide rail to complement my 55 and 108 inch rails. The Powertec 55 inch rail was $65 and I always intended to cut it down to 32 inches and have already done so. The 32 inch Festool rail was $98. I now have a 32 inch and a 23 inch guide rail though I see little or no use for the 23 inch part.
We don’t get powertec here in the UK but it sounds like a clone of the Makita pattern rail - same lip that gets in the way. I did a video about How to Trim a GuideRail, and why you’d want to! [video 468] here -
ua-cam.com/video/QqTJ4SrRD1M/v-deo.html
@@10MinuteWorkshop I watched that video twice and am going to do it. Thanx
I prefer to pay more for Makita. So I bought two and I using them with Metabo. I think it is better decision. Maybe in the future I buy saw from Makita....
Interesting! However you didn’t mention Bosch much and it appeared to me that you took Festool as the de facto standard. Well of course that is your personal favourite.
As I say in the video, Festool *is* the defacto standard - all saws will run in their rails. I don’t mention the Bosch much because there’s not much to say; it’s made by Mafell to their proprietary pattern, and you can only buy it from Bosch or Mafell. And Festool isn’t my ‘favourite’ but certainly, it’s what I chose to use when I started out buying ‘proper’ tools, and I’ve had no reason to change, despite its many faults. As I said in the Festool/Mafell video, if I were starting again I’d probably go with Mafell. 🤷♂️
Interesting stuff, though I wish you'd explore Dewalt rails a bit more. I have a DCS520 and two 1.5m rails but do find it a bit limited in compatibility with other systems. Things like Dewalt's 17mm rib, the joining bar, right-angle attachments, using the rails for routers, with benchdogs, etc. It's all hard to find info and complex to figure out yourself..
I’m afraid you’ve just listed all the reasons why I don’t want to look into the DeWalt too closely! 🤷♂️👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop Hah, fair enough, worth asking! Definitely much more expensive to get into for testing than all the cheapo supermarket tools.
Good informative video Peter, have you had any dealings with the Erbauer plunge saw and its compatibility with the other brands you mentioned?
Thanks! I have one on order! The Erbauer tracks are basically identical to the Makita/Excel rails, as far as I know. 👍👍
Peter Millard , thanks 👍
Hello Peter,
good timing with the guide rail vid. thanks as I’m contemplating buying a track saw, mainly for cutting down full sheets to make it easier to manhandle onto the table saw. I’ve managed to avoid wearing the green and grey suit for sometime, but having bought my first Festool tool, I’m beginning to get sucked in by the ‘system’ ! It seems that all rails are compared to the Festool and fall short with various niggles. I have noticed that you cut your sheets with the lr32 2.4m which by having the holes drilled increases it’s versatility for router use. Is that successful or is longer necessary ? As a hobbyist, I only want to buy one long rail to complement the 1400 which comes with the saw. Enjoying your wardrobe build too, but don’t hang your tools up when it’s done ! Alex
Hi Alex. Haha, yes - the slippery slope, lol! And yes, all 'equivalent' rails have some niggles that make them slightly incompatible; as mentioned here, Makita come closest, but the anti-tipping lip gets in the way of some things. Yes, I've used the 2400 LR32 rail for the odd long cut, and it works OK, but I do wish they made a 2440 or 2500 version! But yes, having the holes definitely increases the versatility, especially if you ever need to make the odd large bookcase or wardrobe with adjustable shelves. When I was first working with Festool, I bought the 3-metre makita rail as it was about 1/3 of the price of the equivalent Festool 2400 rail; these days the prices are much more competitive, and the 'holey' 2400 rail made more sense. 👍
Cheers Peter, useful stuff and thanks for taking the time. Alex