Uprate your boats alternator
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- Опубліковано 22 сер 2024
- UPDATE: I say at the end of the video that there will be ad update in EP4, well we hadn't done enough testing to do it there, but there are regular references to it in later episodes. Here is a written summary:
ALTERNATOR UPDATE:
For those of you who have watched the 'Uprate your alternator' video I did promise an update on how it performed in this episode. We didn't actually do enough motoring to properly test it however so apologies for not having that in this film. We will give a video update in a future episode, but in the meantime I do have some stats from using the alternator a bit now so will write out what I've found here:
Firstly on advice from experienced marine engineers that you get much more longevity by running the alternator at below full capacity I set the 'belt manager' to 3 on the regulator. This means you will not get full capacity out of the alternator but it will be less stressed and last longer. having the belt manager on 3 is supposed to drop the output by 21% and it seems I get about 95 Amps at cruising revs when the batteries are able to accept full charge so that seems about right. There are also some comments on the alternator film that people have experienced Balmar failures due to excessive fan belt dust. I would always do everything possible to avoid creating fan belt dust, that's why lining up pulleys and tensioning the belts properly is important. You need a tensioner on a twin belt system, levering the alternator over and tightening it up won't cut it!
In real life use, after a night at anchor I'm typically at 60-70% state of charge on the house bank (580AH AGM) So running the engine to leave the anchorage and raise the sails, usually about 1 hour, gets my state of charge up around 15% so 75-85% This is about right as the internal resistance of the battery goes up to a level where bulk charging is slowed to such an extent that solar is a much better option anyway.
A no wind passage where you're motoring for a period of time will easily bring the batteries back to full charge which is good for the batteries. We get enough days like that in the Med. to give the batteries an occasional full charge so we don't have to rely on shore power to do that.
Basically then I think the alternator is doing the job it needs to do & I'm happy. I'm still a bit shy of total power for long term voyaging without resorting to the Generator. We only used the Genny once in the last 4 months. But the power I'm short of is more the lower amperage long term charge which for me will probably be more solar. We could go to wind, but I'm very reluctant because of the noise, even the best modern designs are intrusive to some degree. Hydro is also an option, but difficult to fit on a canoe stern.
Also reducing power draw is always something to look at. I've done everything possible for the moment I think, but there is one big saving we could make which is to fit wind vain steering at not use the autohelm. This is an attractive option for all the other benefits it brings, but it has the same problems of fitting to a canoe stern and is expensive.
If you're interested in the technical aspects of sailing, i've uploaded some maintenance videos of the boat lift to the 'Tech Corner' page of our website...
www.sailingfair....
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Uprating your alternator is high on the list of things to do for a cruising boat. This technical corner is all about choosing, wiring and fitting a larger alternator and external regulator.
There's more to consider than you might think. Uprating to a serpentine or double V belt, changing and aligning the pullys. Lots of wiring, alternators work MUCH better with external regulators and you need to be able to program the regulator, standard regulators are shocking when it comes to charging house banks.
This video walks you through the whole process.
If you like this tech video there are many more in the tech series and we also have lots of tech tips and tricks in the regular episodes so don't miss them.
I love your sailing videos. However, theseTechnical Videos are so clear & helpful. Thank you guys for selling up & sailing. The most useful videos we have come across. Thank you for the Education
Arh! Thanks Frances really nice to hear :)
Sailing Fair Isle Maybe in the future, you would possibly consider a video purely about the apps & IT you use on the boat. Looking forward to viewing more videos.
@@francesrowland1391 I do try and put little bits of that sort of information in the sailing episodes, Judy doesn't let me get to techy in those! But yes I will try and get a piece in tech corner to cover it all sometime :)
instablaster...
Finally, someone who wouldn't think I'm crazy when I stress the the importance of a properly aligned belt. Even 1mm will cause premature failure.
Excellent advice sir! Thank you for saving us future mental problems in the middle of nowhere!
Most of the reason for low charge current is the simple fact that the alternator is just not being spun fast enough.
Alternators generally need about 6,000 rpm to generate near full output. When being drived by an idling 700 rpm engine with maybe a 2.5 to 1 drive, the alternator is only turning about 2,000 rpm.
Alternator overheating can be caused by trying to draw too much current without turning it fast enough to move enough cooling air through. If your alternator is running too hot it may be driven too slowly.
Need to kick up the drive speed.
Great video. I'm truly impressed with the spot on knowledge you present in this video. All the information you have given is absolutely correct. And how the ...... You managed to edit this into a 9 min video is world class planning and editing.
I do videos about technical stuff but they always end up being horrendously looooong.
Looking forward to episode 4.
Thanks, well I edited news pieces for 30 years where you're lucky if you get 2 mins duration so 9 minutes is a luxury for me! Steve
Well in a 9 min. video you hit upon all the key
points relating to a proper installation of an alternator.
You covered issues that are frequently overlooked
such as pulley alignment and cable size.
Well done.
Thanks Victor.
Steve, I've just started watching your technical videos and find them to be very informative. The previous one on solar didn't tell me anything I didn't now because I'd previously installed panels on my boat but for the 'newbies' out there, I'm sure they'll learn a thing or two. This video, about the alternator, did teach me a bit about how the regulator is able to sense the temp of the alternator and how that system works and that's something I didn't know! I just replaced the 43 y.o. alternator on my Atomic 4 gas engine, which was original to the boat, with a larger capacity unit because the original one finally died after 43 years and my goodness, having that extra capacity makes a big difference in how quickly the batteries charge. I went from a 30 amp (on a 30 hp engine) to a 60 amp (as I recall). Anyway, thanks for the informative and well produced videos and I wish you and your lovely wife good health during these times. Cheers from Juneau, Alaska!
thanks Wade
Needed to include your trip to the fabricator to modify the pulley. That would have been interesting. Thanks for sharing.
Another very informative vlog Steven first class as usual. 👌👍
I've just seen someone refer to the Victron vid on lithium charging - - that video is a total SET UP. They set it up to promote their products. Look at 00:13 - you will see that the driving pully is even smaller than the alternator pully - and they ran that alternator at 1500 rpm. In the real world the crank pully (Of a manufactures set up) is minimum a ratio of 3:1 - so even on tick over the alt would be spinning at nearly 2000 rpm - the speed they ran the Balmar at was 2110 - so the situation they portray is just NOT POSSIBLE in a real world application. . I think that's why they banned comments. Also, I have found a number of ppl running Lith as a drop in - OK it doesn't give a 100% charge bc Liths like slightly higher charge voltage but if you dig deeper it's only recommended to charge Liths to 100% to enable the BMS to do a top cell balance from time to time. If you run them at 95% max SoC then you considerably extent their life. That's why there are apps for smart phones that prevent cooking the battery and excessive draining . I hope this helps ppl to get a better understanding bc Lith is the way to go ATM.
I won’t be fitting a new alternator any time soon I hope, but always enjoy watching well produced technical videos on anything “boat”. Concise and comprehensive. Cheers
I had identical Balmar setup installed 18 months ago. Despite good alignment alternator failed after 12 months after twin drive belts gradually emitted too much dust which entered front vents and caused buildup and shorting inside case. I was previously not aware of need to use a matched pair of drive belts (not just two belts nominally of same size & spec because one will always be slightly tighter and end up ‘leading’). But a matched pair come in single pack and have been load & length tested together to higher tolerances. Also polish “dress” the inside faces of the pulley wheels on both engine drive and alternator side with fine emery paper to remove sharp edges to further reduce belt wear. Result has been much reduced dust buildup but I still monitor closely.
Hi, that's interesting that you had that problem, are you sure your pullys are in line? And are the belts the right cross section for the pully? (they should sit about flush with the top) I use 'Gates' belts that are guaranteed to be matched, you don't have to buy them as a pair. I think most top makes of belt do that now, but could be wrong. Good point though, I will mention it in the web page that I'm just writing now. Cheers, Steve
Sailing Fair Isle yes pulleys are aligned (checked several times) and yes have always used Gates belts but despite best attempts of my engineers they could never get two ‘identical’ belts to hold tension equally until we moved to a proper matched pair which came in a twin pack. Otherwise one belt was always slightly tighter and carrying burden of big loads ~120A on a heavy day.
@@NZL50505 Okay interesting. Gates claims may not hold out then? Was the matched pair a Gates product can I ask? if so why are they making matched pairs when they say you dont need them anymore because their tolerances are so good!?
Sailing Fair Isle let me check with my engineers the matched pair brand they put on (I don’t think they are Gates). Although I still have a single Gates driving my standard 55A Yanmar engine alternator (I left this one to charge just engine & windlass battery) so Balmar is purely for house. If necessary I can switch between them.
@@NZL50505 Arrh that's interesting, you have the Balmar as a second alternator. Not saying this is applicable to you especially as you seem to be on top of this, but I've seen far to many bad placements of second alternators. I've even seen some mounted off engine which is a very bad idea. On engine, mounts have to be good and strong and you have to be careful of what you're cross loading. I didn't cover it in the video but waterpump bearings can suffer if they're part of the arrangement with a big alternator. I've run my waterpump on its own straight from the flywheel pulley to avoid this. Steve
Koop een boot en je krijgt er genoeg werk bij,vergeet er niet een vakman bij te halen als het kapot gaat.die gereedschapskist aan boord is van de vakman die daar les in heeft gehad.bij de boel schoonhouden heb je genoeg aan te doen.
Ik denk dat cruisers VEEL meer moeten weten dan hoe ze hun boten moeten schoonmaken. Idealiter denk ik dat het doel zou moeten zijn om net zo goed te zijn als de meeste elektriciens / monteurs / riggers die je waarschijnlijk op afgelegen plaatsen tegenkomt. Ik denk echter met missiekritieke items dat het een heel goed idee is om een expert in te schakelen die echt weet waar hij het over heeft. Niet alleen om de klus goed te klaren, maar ook om te kijken en te leren zodat je dingen zelf kunt doen als je ergens bent zonder hulp van topklasse.
bekijk de laatste aflevering over rigging, daar zie je heel goed hoe dat werkt
jolly good ,..smooth seas mate. run out the Genoa and head for Jamaica
Tip for sailers . Be aware that some installations do not measure the correct alternator output.
Verify that the volt and amp measuring units is installed correctly before troubleshooting with onboard panels.
Yes good point, shunts are sometimes badly set up or add on auxiliary items installed that confuse the system. I'll write up a lot of those issues on the Alternator page in tech. corner when I get I chance. The most common problem wiring wise is usually the alternators sensing , it's very difficult for the alternator to see the true state of the batteries charge because of the changing draw on the house bank. All gets a bit complicated for the video! Steve
Very informative! Loving the videos! :)
Great videos and well thought out. I've watched a video from 'Distant Shores' about hybrids. They comment on serial and parallel hybrid systems. Technically, serial hybrids have so many advantages. Parallel hybrids are easier to retro fit. But for a new build why wouldn't you go for a serial hybrid with say 2 hours of battery motoring for maneuvering? For longer motoring run the electric motor off the the diesel generator. The batteries would be enough for most ship systems. (Diesel electric trains are serial hybrids of sorts and have been around since the 1960's). So why aren't serial hybrids popular? Too expensive for the technical gains?
I agree that serial hybrids are the smart way to go and I think that’s exactly what you will increasingly find in new boats, especially cats.
Safiery will improve the performance with a canbus controlled 250 A output alternator which is second to none.
Watched episode 4 but didn't hear anything about it working better or not, did it?? Love your content as well.
Yes sorry, hadn't tested enough to know by then so I did the update as a write up in the description of Ep4 a little bit later have a look there.
Thanks for a great video , I’m about to fit the same alternator and wondered if after like a 3 hour run what sort of amps did you see out of the 150 amp alternator once it all got warm and de rated , cheers
Well the MC614 regulator lets you choose how much to be honest so it's really up to you how much you want to push it. Also with a lead acid house bank the defining factor is always the internal resistance of your batteries, so unless you have a massive house bank (we don't) after three hours you are liable to have a battery bank that's incapable of taking more than a few amps no matter what you are trying to throw at it! We're just changing over to lithium so that wont be the case for use now & if the house bank was low after three hour we could still be getting full power from the alternator if we choose. But we wont do that as it will put a lot of strain on it. I have set the belt manager to 7 which will de-rate it somewhat and I have the max alternator temp at 100 degrees C. I will probable go higher with both of those but I'll try to be as conservative as possible with the alternator and let the solar do as much as possible.
@@svfairisle thanks for the reply , I have a fair amount of solar and it will be charging my lithium bank , I’m just worried this will drop back to like 50 amps after an hour or so and make it unsuitable , if it was going to do that I would upgrade to the large case or have one custom built , I only have space for a single cylinder 3000 rpm salt water cooled genset and refuse to pay the 15 k it will cost by the time it’s installed , my main engine is only 24k and if in half an hour I can heat hot water and throw in 50 amps I will be more than happy , I have had friends doing it now for large amounts of hours and believe the glazing up the engine is just a myth from the old two stroke Detroit days , as long as engine is at temp I think it would be nearly impossible for me to glaze it up cheers Richard
Yes I agree occasional use of the engine for charging might be preferable to fitting a very expensive gender. I think glazing is an issue but probably rectified by a good thrash of the engine from time to time. I religiously give a blast of full throttle every half hour or so if we’re having to mother for any length of time. The thing to watch out for if how many revs you need to get the alternator working well. We need about 2000 revs to charge properly and I wouldn’t really want to do that out of gear. It will be interesting this year to see how things go but I’m hoping that we won’t need to charge from the engine at anchor.
Steve, Great informative video. The emphasis on alignment and correct fitment/use of the sliding bush (you called it a shim) on the top mounting bolt cannot be over stressed. I have to wonder however if you could have achieved most of what you needed by getting the best from your existing alternator by fitment of an external regulator. What type of charge splitter between the start battery and domestics do you have? This can also seriously impact charging rates if the regulator is 'looking' and a fully charged engine battery while you are trying to charge the domestics.
Very good point. In fact the diode based splitter that was on the boat wasn't really up to the job so I removed it. At the moment I'm manually switching the house / battery for charge and use. I will fit a better automatic switcher when I find one. The existing alternator even with an external reg. wasn't really up to the job, but makes a good hot spare.
@@svfairisle I had the same issues with a diode based splitter so fitted one of these:
sterling-power.com/products/volt-drop-alternator-splitting-system-pro-split-r
It solved all my charging issues as it 'looks' at all batteries and diverts the power where needed allowing which ever reg you are using to voltage sense the battery which needs the charge the most while prioritising the engine batt as needed. It's so good I've fitted 3 more on friends boats for them and they have all worked great. In fact I bought an external regulator at the same time but the system now works so well I haven't bothered to fit it!
Thanks for the tip, it does look like a great bit of kit, I've just emailed them.
@@svfairisle No probs, the info sheet tells you most things you might need to know about it.
cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0658/7343/files/PSR.pdf?786
Excellent video, thank you for sharing.
Can you elaborate on how you used shims to fix the angular misalignment? I’m wrestling with a similar problem and would appreciate any tips. Thanks.
All I was doing there was getting the pulleys in line. The bilge pump pulley was farther.back that the others so putting a shim ( I just have a collection of old washers) between the pump and the mounting lug on the engine will move it forward in line with the others. Usually the water pump and crankshaft pulleys are fine if they’re standard to the engine, same with Hitachi mount alternators as they have twin mounting lugs on the engine. It’s additions that are often the problem as was the case with my bilge pump. It is possible for accessories like this to be off at an angle as well as mine was slightly & this one was mounted with two bolts so shimming one of them was enough to twist the pulley in line with the others. If there is only one lug then you may find yourself having to file a bit off one side or inserting a thick washer that’s been ground down on one side. Hope that makes sense.
@@svfairisle Makes sense, thanks!
Fascinating battery dials. Don’t understand. You manually adjust the charging?
Yes. There is a potentiometer that allows me to adjust how much output we get from the mains transformer. This means I can adjust between trickle charging or the full 100amps which is important. Also because the onboard generator runs through the mains charger I can adjust it to vary the load on the genny. If you give it too much load it will stall.
Sailing Fair Isle I had no idea such controls existed. How clever.
I have looked through the comments but can't find my question.
Why are you uprating your main drive engines alternator when you have a generator that should be designed to charge the batteries? Let the main drive engine charge is own starting battery and leave the rest to the generator? I would not want to risk the main engine breaking down.
We never use the engine purely to charge the batteries. If it's a charge we need of course we use the generator, as you say it's what it's built for. However anything that keeps generator use to a minimum is a good thing in my book. We plan to eventually get rid of the generator all together. In an average cruising week, there are spells of motoring / motor sailing when there's no wind and of course to and from anchorages every day. The uprated alternator gives us enough charge to mean we very rarely use the genny. Before even with a few hours motoring in a day we would have to run the genny in the anchorage, not good!
That makes a lot of sense. Thank you very much
Hi Steve, I'm interested to know where you learnt your mechanical and electrical knowledge?
Just picked up over the years Al. Always been mechanically minded, raced motorbikes as a kid, could strip and rebuild a 2 Stoke from the age of 12, did a degree in Physics & have always been around boats & lucky enough to be around some of the great sailors like Sir Robin KJ and Jean Luc van den Heede.
Great vid thanks. I have a Balmar as well on my Hylas along with a standard alternator on my Yanmar 4JH2-TE. I can switch between alternators if desired and turn each on or off depending on what I want to accomplish. I'm curious, however, regarding your statement about NOT running the Gen Set. Why would you consider it a better option to run the engine instead of the Gen Set and the high-output battery charger likely attached to it? I have a 150A Xantrex battery charger/inverter which can make short change of recharging the house bank. I would prefer to put the hours on the Gen Set over the engine if I require a recharge on the house bank.
Oh No. Sorry if that's how it came across, I would never want to run the engine just to charge the battery, terribly bad for a big diesel to run it at tickover. What I was getting at was I eventually want to do away with the Gen set. I'm probably biased against it as it gave me no end of trouble when we bought the boat and a hate the bloody thing! A new water pump, cylinder head and front end rebuild later (oil pressure relief valve was stuck) and it's okay now but you know what it's like I'm just waiting for it to go wrong now! So I would like to have enough solar that along with the Balmar (charging when motoring) I won't need the gen set. that will probably only happen when I up rate the house bank either in size or type. Sorry for the confusion, Steve
Interested in that two alternator set up...
Also how best for those with a single balmar to revert to the stock yanmar alternator as a backup
How much will cost to change the stbn alternator?
The Balmar & external regulator was over £1,000 ,so really NOT cheap. But for us it was on the essential list.
Thank you
episode 4?? cant seem to find the follow up video, pls help
Hi Ralph, yes sorry we hadn't done enough testing by Ep 4 to give an update but I have written it in the description, so have a look at that in Ep 4. Plus charging does get mentions elsewhere and will continue to do so, it is a work in progress. The 'general winter jobs' video has some info as well.
Can someone link me to episode 4, please? TIA.
Have a look at the description in this video, there's an update there.
@@svfairisle I did read all of the description, and I can't see a link or a reference there. I did go to your channel, too, and could not see the follow-up video there, but must have missed it. Can you link to it in the description, please?
@@KitLaughlin Sorry Kit my mistake, I wrote the update in Ep4’s description, link here… ua-cam.com/video/sj4bpbEMc7Y/v-deo.html I didn’t get to do a proper update in that episode as we hadn’t tested it enough. I’ve talked about it in other episodes over the last couple of years. There will be a whole update on it coming up as well as I’m just changing over to LiFePO4 batteries. Part of the reason for choosing this alternator and regulator was their ability to work with lithium as I knew I would be upgrading. Lithium can be very demanding on alternators as they will accept full current for a long time unlike Lead acid which ramps down quickly as the internal resistance goes up. The fact that the regulator has a temperature probe on the alternator is key to it not allowing the alternator to cook. I will also probably derate the alternator further with the belt profile we shall see.
@@svfairisle Sincere thanks, Steve. And I understand completely re. the demands of Lithium; Victron have an excellent video on this if you have not seen it; the keys as you mention are having a temperature sensor on the alternator's case, and not running the engine too slowly. See the video here: ua-cam.com/video/jgoIocPgOug/v-deo.html
Again, thanks. I really like the naturalness of your presentation style, too. Kudos.
3 or 4 months to swap an alternator! Wow are you a government employee? lol
Well almost, takes at least that long for anyone to even think about making a decision at the BBC! No it was done either side of a 2 month filming trip in Africa. & I admit I then spent several weeks having fan belts delivered that were all the wrong length! Those things are a bugger to measure accurately!