We can hope, and I really do . But still time for them both to fizzle out, especially if they can't manage to stay close enough in performance to make the price stomach able. Though with just how open the MNT has been and it being chunkier for more physical volume to work with it shouldn't be hard to create new modules to fit.
This harks to the old days of computers being sold as kits and just about everything was user modifiable. Very cool. Wish I had the funds for something like this.
@@AQHackAQI think he's referring to laptops, back when we could swap out CD-ROM drive bays for extra battery storage in the same slot, swappable hard-drive bays, panels to reach ram modules, and a standardized slot (forgot the name) where you could insert a wifi card, network plug, or various other modules. These are all gone because the name of the game became thin & light, and manufacturers had to come up with proprietary ways to beat their competition.
This looks like such a great machine for firmware and hardware students. Imagine how easily and all the open resources you could use to work on these stuff. It's like we're going full circle back to the golden age of computing. Where the hardware was ours when we bought it.
Its not full circle the hardware was never ours, closed companies making hardware for a long time, the amount of backdoors we do not know about is insane, even a simple piece of hardware such as a printer would make microdots to determine location for counterfeit reasons in the US.
Thinnness isn't a feature, it's a bug. Modern laptops are overly thin, but are often non-serviceable due to it. This project looks pretty neat, but tbh I'm more excited for Linux based modular open phones and smaller devices than I am this. Specs really make it not very competitive with older ThinkPad models, which are also quite moldable and tough.
Finally, the first actually good comment i've seen in this section. A thicker chassis makes for better cooling specs and better sound implementation bc of all the space.
Some thing need to be small but we are making to many things small that dont need to be.. Like trying to make phones thinner and thinner while removing things people use and cutting down on battery life..
Old ThinkPads use proprietary batteries that you might not be able to replace. You can find them online but they've all been sitting around for many years at this point so even if you buy a "new" one it won't actually be new.
That sounds right. So far I've been able to buy suitable "new" thinkpad batteries. Unfortunately I think you'll run into similar problems with all other older electronics. @@colbyboucher6391
@@Gusto20000 i have used a rpi as daily driver for 2 years , it is not too bad to watch youtube on (assuming you do not need 4k ) and some opensource games like minetest and supertuxkart run fine (STK just needs some settings turned down) the banana pi 4 is faster than the pi 4 which i was using so it should be fine for a laptop (and you can probably replace it with a more powerful SOC later in time )
@@Gusto20000 90% of what I do can be done with a browser and an office suite. I probably wouldn't get rid of my other laptops / desktops when using this, but the average person doesn't need a high spec machine, and when I need one I'll have one.
@@Gusto20000 Most people can daily drive tech from 20 years ago no problem. A Raspberry Pi is more than enough for many. For games, and Blender, I have a high end desktop. I don't know anyone in real life who does anything remotely close to what I do with Blender. I only know a handful of people who are playing demanding games. Heck, look at Steam's hardware surveys and look at what games people are actually playing. Nearly everybody is just using web-based apps and most people only watch videos on their phones these days.
The people making these laptops also offer an open mechanical keyboard, the same you can see on this machine. So if you wanna support this company without committing too much maybe this is an option. Also, thank you Jeff for doing this review. I got excited as soon as I've seen your post on Mastodon.
Finally! Someone who sees the term 'hacking' as not just for malicious intent. It's all about figuring out how something works and if you can't get it to work to work around it.
Cracking is typically what people think of when they hear hacking instead of the historical context where hacker was “a complimentary description for a particularly brilliant programmer or technical expert.”
My personal biggest "hack" was getting an LGA771 CPU running on a LGA775 board. Which included hardware mods to make it fit and work in the socket and software mods which included adding the microcode into the BIOS.
I know the creator of this thing personally. It's an extremely small team, and they put their love, heart and soul into it. I love what they do, and I'm always tempted to buy one, but I'm too lazy, and have a too wide interest (retro-things) to just stuck to ARM Linux hacking. Maybe I'll get the slim down version though, when it's out. We'll see.
Hats off to them it's a shame the focus on what this laptop really represented was not really maximised and kept referring back to this pre packaged products that had a completely different design and customer because the same could have been said about apple product for instance, I could have said unlike this laptop the MacBook Air cannot be opened without without melting the glue etc, you can't put memory in it, there's no open source the Mac book air lacks flexibility 2 completely change out what hardware you want and I would have said that was an unfair comparison if the MacBook Air was being reviewed.
whats the use of being so repairable if the soc is going to get useless in 2-3 years, another way of planned obsolescence. These crappy chips are of no use. Real computers have decent capable cpus.
then you put in a newer soc module, they're replaceable after all besides, it's hardly useless if it still can run things. not everybody needs the fastest top of the line cpu
Apple's been selling last Gen tech for years at the price of new tech ah you just answered exactly why you can replace the parts on it so conveniently and why apple don't let you do that I don't think you quite understand what this product is. This isn't bleeding edge technology and shouldn't be compared to it The concept is more the thing here and how the hardware is used and how the user has the freedom to make it their own@@akashp01
While I think this is a step in the right direction and we need more repairable and open source laptops, the price kind of kills it for me. I have a similiar setup, using a foldable portable display, a raspberry pi 4/5, together with mouse and keyboard in suitcase, powered by a powerbank. For extra connectivity I modded a standard switch to operate on usb power and added a router. That whole setup is less than 300€, it's not pretty or extremely practical by any means, but it get's the job done just as well, costing much less than this solution. I know that the manufacturer operates on small margins with such customised high quality setups, but with this price point, I doubt it will see much adoption. I might consider picking one up in 3 to 5 years, hopefully then the hardware will match the price a bit more :)
Such a cool idea to power a laptop through 18650s and have modular a swappable soc. I hope one day laptops become more like this with very easy to swap parts similar to that of the framework
laptop batteries were one of the primary reasons that 18650 cells were invented. My decade old dell laptop uses them. I actually replaced one of the cells a couple years ago. Laptops stopped using them because laptop designers started going thinner and thinner and pouch cells just made more sense.
Cyberdeck makers are gonna have a field day with this one~ BTW, love the touch with that extra LCD in the bootloader. No overreliance on the big display's ability to function.
I could see this being useful as a portable dev platform for these ARM SoCs. It seems to have just about every kind of I/O you'd want to test with your software with. That's a super niche use case, but one I think this suits really well. I'm really happy to see these guys contributing to more open-source hardware. I'd love to see an x86 compute module in the future. Something like an Intel N50 or N100 would be sick to slot in to one of these sorts of things.
@JeffGeerling with the chassis volume I recon a fairly large passive heatsink would be possible if there's no way to mount a fan. Even then something like an N100 would be very easy to cool since I've rarely seen mine exceed 12W.
Whether or not I would ever buy this kind of "hackable" notebook myself, I applaud the makers for their hard work and for the additional choice they provide for end users. This, in itself, is a great achievement in my book. Respect.
I was struggling to see who would buy this until I saw the custom builds other people have made. There isn't really any other machine that you can build your own custom mechanical keyboard in and a lot of people are very particular about their keyboards so it's great to have a platform that allows you to build one into a laptop.
Honestly don't know how I've lived for so many years without that mapping... it seems like too much effort lol. I got to spend time working on neovim DAP - > LSP integration sometime again....
I'm completely okay with a laptop being that thick. I'd much rather have it thicker and repairable/upgradeable any day of the week. I'm on the larger size myself, so the extra weight is negligible to me.
It's not like smaller or thinner laptops are much lighter, from what I've run into. The metal case likely helps for this, but thin plastic laptops (not a netbook) I have used have always been heavy enough to flex and sag if held from one corner.
It doesn't quite have the performance I'd need in current form(s) - but gosh you can really tell a lot of work and love goes into MNT's projects. Really love and all about what they're doing, and can't wait to see what else they come out with. Maybe one day I'll be picking one up!
This shows how much people want ARM computers. I would kill for a powerful ARM laptop with Linux. 8 High-end cores, 16/32GB RAM, NVMe, and being open like this project would be my dream machine.
@@mskiptr The never ending need to reverse engineer drivers is why I haven't gotten an M* MacBook. It would be great if Apple made drivers available for Linux, I'd even be OK with closed source drivers. I also don't like that Asahi is the only option.
@@xero110 Apple doesn't care about Linux. But since for some reason (thank God) they put "a user-controllable bootloader" in their requirements, have delivered on that part and are sticking to this policy, both Linux and OpenBSD are now options. Asahi is just a project to write these drivers for Linux. Yes, it requires reverse-engineering (because again, Apple doesn't care), but that extra effort it required makes these drivers some of the most polished ones out there. [1/2], because YT straight up removed my reply the first time I posted it
@@xero110 But it's not really true that Asahi is the only option. You can go with Fedora (the current officially endorsed distro), NixOS, Debian, Ubuntu, Gentoo, Alpine and more. The goal of the Asahi project is to make any ARM64 distro work - by submitting all of the drivers upstream and getting them integrated into mainline Linux. [2/2]
I feel like if properly reengineered, you could make this much more compact and elegant. Just like the framework design, could need some reengineering.
This gives me flashbacks to the Novena Open Laptop from 10 years ago. Though that one came with a built-in FPGA and MyriadRF SDR, since it was created by hardware hacker Bunnie. Came with a quad core and 4GB of RAM as well and all firmware was open source.
Finally a laptop where you can actually change the battery cells. Every single other laptop I have come across has a battery with a BMS built into the battery, and if you attempt to replace the cells, the BMS will literally brick itself making it impossible to replace cells.. Anti repair at it's finest.
Thanks for making this. I was shopping for a laptop recently and entertained the idea of getting this, but now I can see that it wouldn't have been the right choice. Happier with what I have now!
It's smart that they provide a PSU that is well above the machines consumption abilities. If it only supplied 48 watts, it would burn up quickly when the machine is demanding everything the PSU can provide.
I'd like to also see the possibility of multiple compute modules in this laptop form, so that it can be like a cluster in a laptop, which would make it a unique value proposition.
I was interested up until the price. I'm sure this is great for someone, but I'm clearly not the target audience. Still, maybe someday when the price drops, this would be neat!
Agreed! 3-4-500 dollars, depending on spec and features, count me in. perhaps if they did a base model without the SSD and a cheaper non mech keyboard and such like, and could upgrade as time goes on. If I had over a grand to spend on a laptop, you bet its a daily driver and not a hacking toy like this.
It looks like most of the thickness is a battery constraint. If they could swap in some standard array of flat-pack batteries - like something from mini drones maybe, I think it could get a little thinner. Or perhaps there's a popular laptop battery that will be in production for another 20 years they could borrow. Those 18650s are ubiquitous though.
Hey Jeff, a giant keyboard nerd here to explain what I think the reasoning behind the keyboard is. Firstly the control key, it's likely it's there because that's what the HHKB (Happy hacking keyboard) does with it's layout. Second the split keyboard is fairly common on smaller keyboards so that you can change layers, my guess is that the left is used to go up a layer and the right is for going down. Third the small spacebar in the middle is fairly similar to what you see on the JIS-ISO layout, commonly used in Japan. My guess here is that the creator made a keyboard that fits him, and his quirks and planned to make it different in the future. Hopefully we'll see more layout options in the future, with how easilly the parts are to swap out. Lastly as a comment on the laptop, I'd be all in at half the price, but it's a bit outside my wallet for now. Let's hope we can get the price down in the future, even if it removes some features. Maybe things can be changes more into modules so we could change those things ourselves to get the price down.
Not for me, but it's neat for the future innovation. edit: It does look like the main thickness is for the batteries though, so some improvement available there.
Actually, a bit of research reveals the "RISC-V ARVSOM System-on-Module". Just buy one of those, and with any luck it'll just be plug & play. (you'll likely need luck though - not all linux drivers for accessories work with the RISC-V architecture yet)
True geeks know the power of the IBM Nipple! I wonder if they do a keyboard with that? My old Thinkpad had the mouse buttons above the trackpad, which was also exactly where they needed to be to use with the nipple. Also let you swap out the CD-ROM for a floppy or a second battery. Back when IBM actually made them! I'd love one of those again with a modern spec. I suppose one might hollow one out and stick one of these ARM SBC's into it.
The design seems dated in a way that doesn't negatively affect it. It certainly does look like my PowerBook 1400, but the thickness feels amazing when typing and the trackpad being smaller means your palms naturally rest just below the keyboard, keeping your fingers centered. There's cons to the design, but it will age significantly better than anything else out there. When rpi and everyone else is making more powerful chips, all it would take is a new heat sink, fan and a nice new clear acrylic base plate. Would be awesome if the company made an aluminium base plate that doubled as a heat sink, though.
Great video! Could you do one on the open-hardware PowerPC notebook? It seems like a project for OSH/OSS enthusiasts and PPC diehards, but it seems like a well-run project. (I also commented on the short so sorry if this is déjà vu)
I'd also like to see a switch inside the case for disconnecting the battery, given disconnecting the battery is the first thing you do every time when opening it up. Those connectors are chonky, fragile and require more force that I would like to disconnect, and I've ripped one off a motherboard before.
i have been following this laptop for quite a bit, really love the industrial and kit approach but is still too damn expensive for what it is. i dont mind the thickness as i use a dell rugged laptop which is on a similar ballpark of thickness.
It looks like there's enough space in the case (with case modification) to have a trackpad and real buttons. I'm too used to trackpad now to use anything else on a laptop, and buttons are needed for fast window manager use, and also for CAD (which the hardware may be too limited for)
This is pretty cool, I have no use cases for it but I'd love to have one and take it to coffee shops. Would be an interesting conversation starter. LOVE the acrylic bottom!!
The one good selling point for that laptop is completely open and repairable, as big system more rugged too. They should make a doomsday rugged version, a laptop meant to survive the worst of doomsdays, and be in the field! XD Even if it's just for the cool factor, and people working in remote areas for prolonged periods of time (ie. antarctica for example)
There is a lot to love here. I can put up with most of the downsides. But the price is a big one and being ARM-only also is. I'd be more interested in it if there were an x86 option or something like the MiSTer FPGA in it. It seems very retro and those would be a better fit to have a retro laptop. But there are a ton of competing system on a module standards so it is hard to come up with a modular design for everything.
Same. ARM is a deal breaker for me, and if I ever do have to pay for anything with an ARM chip, it's never over $100. I just can't see where the $1,200 price is going here. The keyboard and trackball/pad aren't that great, and I see nothing "super modern" or cutting-edge in the machine that make me think it's a good value. That said, I do love that it's most open-source, and very repairable. Maybe they're catering to rich nerds...?
@@SigEpBlue The economies of scale make a big difference here. The reason why other laptops are so cheap in comparison is that cater to the mass market. Design costs can be spread out and parts purchased in bulk. This is why you can find a smartphone cheaper than a dev-board. But that is still a lot of money for that.
Love the idea and the concept is awesome but it's a bit too high priced for the performance you get. I really hope they can get the price to come down over time. The framework seems like the better purchase at the moment. I do hope they succeed with this endeavor though! The market as a whole needs to adopt a repair and replace model. It's great to see more companies coming out with repairable systems again.
It may be thick but a lot of people would love the freedom of being able to modify their device or even have easily replaceable parts. That is not something that will ever happen with a MacBook or any other Apple device!!
The lack of open source trackpad stuff is one of the weirdest matrix glitches. It seems like it would entice devs more as its a very concise issue: I mean also one of the sexier one-and-done elements of a linux desktop.
It's gotten a LOT better in the past few years-it used to be absolutely painful to use a trackpad with Linux. Now at least it's on par with Windows in most scenarios (IMO). Just... Apple was leaps and bounds ahead when they went all-in on the glass trackpad designs a few years back.
It's kind of unsettling that he keeps referring to "MacBooks and ChromeBooks," as if the Linux enthusiast community doesn't all but exclusively use Windows (targeted) hardware... Nevermind that the general populace overwhelmingly buys Windows when they shop laptops. This is like comparing every car to the Hyundai equivalent.
Who the hell uses a MacBook except pretentious snobs who pretend to know about "computers" yet have to pay ridiculous prices to have Geniuses fix it.. Don't get me started on Chromebooks worthless trash 🗑️🤬 I think this would be cool because they don't sell laptop barebones l been looking for 20+ years only drawback is using a SMB but the new Pi 5 looks promising with a GPU Hat, I want to build the ultimate hacker cyberdeck with that thing
@@russc788mine never has. Though most of my computers are used and started life with Windows, before the version for their specs went EOL and they were liquidated by the original owners.
Finally a laptop with the mid 90s in mind, just need beige as a color option now, the more you use, the yellower it becomes. Also ill make the lid solar, just seems the way to go in my eyes.
At around 4:46 you give viewers the impression that all Linux distros boot into a command line console (which might scare away potential Linux users). Actually, such is definitely not the case with the vast majority of Linux distros, as the boot normally takes you into a GUI (unless you run something like the server version of Ubuntu). In fact, it is my opinion that a distro such as KDE Plasma for example has a far superior and easier to use GUI than either Windows or Mac OS,. However, I really don't like the Linux implementation on your laptop, as it doesn't seem to be very user-friendly or well implemented, and would not consider it to be a representation of modern Linux systems. I used to be an avid Windows user and switched only 8 months ago to Linux. My only regret is that my incorrect preconception that Linux was for geeks, didn't allow me to do so sooner. Anyway, since then I never looked back.
I like it, finally not some scrap laptop. but something I put together for myself, I have old HP laptops more than 20 years old, disassembled or in one piece, they still had material. This could be one of those, but it's priced in gold, and for many people, including me, that's unaffordable. Then you can buy a second hand business laptop with a replaceable memory NVME, SSD, Procesor. But the initiative, if you do not look at the price, especially the scythe is 10/10. Good luck and good hope to those who manage to buy the configuration that suits them.
Almost 2 grand for same specs as a 200 dollar phone... no thanks. Almost 200 dollars for a Pi adapter, and 300 for banana pi? Geebus. This is never going to be mainstream with those prices.
Yeah that’s the thing tho: it’s not meant to be mainstream. This is 100% designed for the .01% that prototypes new hardware and software combos . This is SUPER niche, but that’s what it was designed for
With the way it looks I am unsure if I would dare to take it to any airport, even if I show them that its a laptop. But besides that its seems like a great step in the right direction and I hope more companies besides them and Framework join the fight
Looks???? Having flown domestically in the US twice, in the last few months, I can say this would not be a problem. I did not have to take my laptop or another electronics out of my carry-on bag. (I did have everything in clear plastics bags just in case). The scanners (at the air ports) are pretty amazing,
Two things: As a user of trackpads who never uses the buttons... Double tap and hold on the second tap to drag, and tap with two fingers to right click. Not sure if this thing's trackpad is configured that way, but pretty much every modern machine I've used is set up to do that. Second.... The USB ports are upside down. Sad. Looks like a neat device though!
Can you draw a dashed line if using such trackpads? I've seen laptops with software that configure its trackpad, for example to use its edge for scrolling. A better solution is to do the same for left & right click, use an area on the trackpad for clicking instead of double-tapping.
You can, it's not gonna be particularly efficient though. Double tap and hold, drag, lift, touch, drag, lift, double tap and hold, drag, lift, touch, drag, ect...
This laptop is a FIREHAZARD. The clamps holding the batteries are all metal, including the ones at the positive side. They easily cut through the very thin plastic cover which makes those clamps touch the metal side of the battery, which is connected to the negative side. This means the clamp at the positive side is VERY prone to short circuiting the batteries.
Gaaah you're right! I even have that nice closeup of the adapter on the screen at 3:23 - I'll add a 'correction' for the video that should pop in that section. D'oh!
Would be cool, if somebody with the skill could make a keyboard with a trackpoint for this. Not too bad, but a little too heavy and little too thick for my taste, to carry every day. But definitively nice project, that could see evolution in the future. In general I like the idea.
It's amazing seeing the hackability of this design and I love the direction MNT and Framework are going. I have the funds for something like this but I'll admit - this isn't for me and I think that's okay. Much respect for the honest review! :)
Between this and the Framework 16, the future of moddable laptops is looking sweet
I'm all here for it!
Hell yeah it is. 🎉
We can hope, and I really do . But still time for them both to fizzle out, especially if they can't manage to stay close enough in performance to make the price stomach able. Though with just how open the MNT has been and it being chunkier for more physical volume to work with it shouldn't be hard to create new modules to fit.
Too bad both are way outside of financial sense..
I hope you're right. I'm sick of all the unnecessary e-waste. I also like to hack my stuff. 😂
This harks to the old days of computers being sold as kits and just about everything was user modifiable. Very cool. Wish I had the funds for something like this.
Back when the computer came in parts and you had to solder it yourself :D
Жаль что ты не работаешь (нет)
The more people by this and frameworks laptops the more the prices with go down.
Huh? Like any custom PC build today? Wtf is even this comment...
@@AQHackAQI think he's referring to laptops, back when we could swap out CD-ROM drive bays for extra battery storage in the same slot, swappable hard-drive bays, panels to reach ram modules, and a standardized slot (forgot the name) where you could insert a wifi card, network plug, or various other modules. These are all gone because the name of the game became thin & light, and manufacturers had to come up with proprietary ways to beat their competition.
This looks like such a great machine for firmware and hardware students. Imagine how easily and all the open resources you could use to work on these stuff. It's like we're going full circle back to the golden age of computing. Where the hardware was ours when we bought it.
Its not full circle the hardware was never ours, closed companies making hardware for a long time, the amount of backdoors we do not know about is insane, even a simple piece of hardware such as a printer would make microdots to determine location for counterfeit reasons in the US.
Thinnness isn't a feature, it's a bug. Modern laptops are overly thin, but are often non-serviceable due to it. This project looks pretty neat, but tbh I'm more excited for Linux based modular open phones and smaller devices than I am this. Specs really make it not very competitive with older ThinkPad models, which are also quite moldable and tough.
Finally, the first actually good comment i've seen in this section. A thicker chassis makes for better cooling specs and better sound implementation bc of all the space.
Some thing need to be small but we are making to many things small that dont need to be..
Like trying to make phones thinner and thinner while removing things people use and cutting down on battery life..
I work on plenty of modern laptops and the thinness doesn't make them non-serviceable. Instead it makes them more fragile.
Old ThinkPads use proprietary batteries that you might not be able to replace. You can find them online but they've all been sitting around for many years at this point so even if you buy a "new" one it won't actually be new.
That sounds right. So far I've been able to buy suitable "new" thinkpad batteries. Unfortunately I think you'll run into similar problems with all other older electronics. @@colbyboucher6391
the fact that it comes with a handbook that actually explains every part is amazing
This is awesome. It takes the repairability a step farther than even Framework but with some pretty significant compromises.
Awesome? Have you tried using rpi as a daily driver? Are you ok?
@@Gusto20000 i have used a rpi as daily driver for 2 years , it is not too bad to watch youtube on (assuming you do not need 4k ) and some opensource games like minetest and supertuxkart run fine (STK just needs some settings turned down) the banana pi 4 is faster than the pi 4 which i was using so it should be fine for a laptop (and you can probably replace it with a more powerful SOC later in time )
@@Gusto20000 90% of what I do can be done with a browser and an office suite. I probably wouldn't get rid of my other laptops / desktops when using this, but the average person doesn't need a high spec machine, and when I need one I'll have one.
@@Gusto20000 Most people can daily drive tech from 20 years ago no problem. A Raspberry Pi is more than enough for many.
For games, and Blender, I have a high end desktop. I don't know anyone in real life who does anything remotely close to what I do with Blender. I only know a handful of people who are playing demanding games. Heck, look at Steam's hardware surveys and look at what games people are actually playing.
Nearly everybody is just using web-based apps and most people only watch videos on their phones these days.
to be honest you might as well just buikd your own laptop from scratch considering how overpriced this is
The people making these laptops also offer an open mechanical keyboard, the same you can see on this machine. So if you wanna support this company without committing too much maybe this is an option.
Also, thank you Jeff for doing this review. I got excited as soon as I've seen your post on Mastodon.
Same ! Great video 🎉
This laptop madel and name
Finally! Someone who sees the term 'hacking' as not just for malicious intent. It's all about figuring out how something works and if you can't get it to work to work around it.
Cracking is typically what people think of when they hear hacking instead of the historical context where hacker was “a complimentary description for a particularly brilliant programmer or technical expert.”
@@Fractal_32 I always liked the description of hacking: making a system do things it was never intended to do. 🙂
My personal biggest "hack" was getting an LGA771 CPU running on a LGA775 board. Which included hardware mods to make it fit and work in the socket and software mods which included adding the microcode into the BIOS.
@@autohmae It reminds me of one of the best hackers I know in fiction, Red Green. _"Any tool can be the right tool."_
I know the creator of this thing personally. It's an extremely small team, and they put their love, heart and soul into it. I love what they do, and I'm always tempted to buy one, but I'm too lazy, and have a too wide interest (retro-things) to just stuck to ARM Linux hacking. Maybe I'll get the slim down version though, when it's out. We'll see.
Hats off to them it's a shame the focus on what this laptop really represented was not really maximised and kept referring back to this pre packaged products that had a completely different design and customer
because the same could have been said about apple product for instance, I could have said unlike this laptop the MacBook Air cannot be opened without without melting the glue etc, you can't put memory in it, there's no open source the Mac book air lacks flexibility 2 completely change out what hardware you want and I would have said that was an unfair comparison if the MacBook Air was being reviewed.
whats the use of being so repairable if the soc is going to get useless in 2-3 years, another way of planned obsolescence. These crappy chips are of no use. Real computers have decent capable cpus.
then you put in a newer soc module, they're replaceable after all
besides, it's hardly useless if it still can run things. not everybody needs the fastest top of the line cpu
Apple's been selling last Gen tech for years at the price of new tech
ah you just answered exactly why you can replace the parts on it so conveniently and why apple don't let you do that
I don't think you quite understand what this product is. This isn't bleeding edge technology and shouldn't be compared to it
The concept is more the thing here and how the hardware is used and how the user has the freedom to make it their own@@akashp01
@@akashp01you’re not the brightest, are you?
While I think this is a step in the right direction and we need more repairable and open source laptops, the price kind of kills it for me. I have a similiar setup, using a foldable portable display, a raspberry pi 4/5, together with mouse and keyboard in suitcase, powered by a powerbank. For extra connectivity I modded a standard switch to operate on usb power and added a router.
That whole setup is less than 300€, it's not pretty or extremely practical by any means, but it get's the job done just as well, costing much less than this solution.
I know that the manufacturer operates on small margins with such customised high quality setups, but with this price point, I doubt it will see much adoption. I might consider picking one up in 3 to 5 years, hopefully then the hardware will match the price a bit more :)
Such a cool idea to power a laptop through 18650s and have modular a swappable soc. I hope one day laptops become more like this with very easy to swap parts similar to that of the framework
laptop batteries were one of the primary reasons that 18650 cells were invented. My decade old dell laptop uses them. I actually replaced one of the cells a couple years ago. Laptops stopped using them because laptop designers started going thinner and thinner and pouch cells just made more sense.
@@justincarter7954 I used to disassemble old laptops battery to keep the cell.
Made me a pretty nice Ebike battery.
Seriously. Thr fact that it's thick enough to house those things is a feature imo
I ordered their MNT Pocket Reform on Crowd Supply. I'm excited for the mini version of this.
Cyberdeck makers are gonna have a field day with this one~
BTW, love the touch with that extra LCD in the bootloader. No overreliance on the big display's ability to function.
Reminds me of working in an IBM AS/400 back in the day with the small LCD panel and thick manual and it's *a process* to turn it on or off.
also the boot times, i knocked out power to one back in the early 2000s and had to wait till it booted up to go home, about 3hrs later
I could see this being useful as a portable dev platform for these ARM SoCs. It seems to have just about every kind of I/O you'd want to test with your software with. That's a super niche use case, but one I think this suits really well. I'm really happy to see these guys contributing to more open-source hardware. I'd love to see an x86 compute module in the future. Something like an Intel N50 or N100 would be sick to slot in to one of these sorts of things.
Yeah, there's room enough for an Intel or AMD chip, too! Cooling would need to be passive though.
@JeffGeerling with the chassis volume I recon a fairly large passive heatsink would be possible if there's no way to mount a fan. Even then something like an N100 would be very easy to cool since I've rarely seen mine exceed 12W.
Whether or not I would ever buy this kind of "hackable" notebook myself, I applaud the makers for their hard work and for the additional choice they provide for end users. This, in itself, is a great achievement in my book. Respect.
You show up to the meeting with this bad boy, you're going to be promoted in no time!
Yes new video in the new studio. Worth the wait!
I was struggling to see who would buy this until I saw the custom builds other people have made. There isn't really any other machine that you can build your own custom mechanical keyboard in and a lot of people are very particular about their keyboards so it's great to have a platform that allows you to build one into a laptop.
As a vim user, I completely approve mapping capslock to escape lol
vim > emacs
lisp will destroy you all /lh
I map capslock to ctrl and use ^[ as escape. Ctrl is more useful in more applications and the ^[ isn't bad for me.
@@jimktrains0 This is the way
Honestly don't know how I've lived for so many years without that mapping... it seems like too much effort lol. I got to spend time working on neovim DAP - > LSP integration sometime again....
I'm completely okay with a laptop being that thick. I'd much rather have it thicker and repairable/upgradeable any day of the week. I'm on the larger size myself, so the extra weight is negligible to me.
It's not like smaller or thinner laptops are much lighter, from what I've run into. The metal case likely helps for this, but thin plastic laptops (not a netbook) I have used have always been heavy enough to flex and sag if held from one corner.
An SMT fuse... IN A SOCKET! Now that's some innovation.
Thank you for the tight review! That this exists at all gives some hope for open platforms and open hardware. ❤🎉❤
It doesn't quite have the performance I'd need in current form(s) - but gosh you can really tell a lot of work and love goes into MNT's projects. Really love and all about what they're doing, and can't wait to see what else they come out with. Maybe one day I'll be picking one up!
This shows how much people want ARM computers. I would kill for a powerful ARM laptop with Linux. 8 High-end cores, 16/32GB RAM, NVMe, and being open like this project would be my dream machine.
MacBooks check out every box besides _open_ btw
(what's surprising, in some areas they are more open than all modern Intel/AMD machines)
@@mskiptr The never ending need to reverse engineer drivers is why I haven't gotten an M* MacBook. It would be great if Apple made drivers available for Linux, I'd even be OK with closed source drivers. I also don't like that Asahi is the only option.
@@xero110sadly it's apple yeah not gonna happen
@@xero110 Apple doesn't care about Linux. But since for some reason (thank God) they put "a user-controllable bootloader" in their requirements, have delivered on that part and are sticking to this policy, both Linux and OpenBSD are now options.
Asahi is just a project to write these drivers for Linux. Yes, it requires reverse-engineering (because again, Apple doesn't care), but that extra effort it required makes these drivers some of the most polished ones out there.
[1/2], because YT straight up removed my reply the first time I posted it
@@xero110 But it's not really true that Asahi is the only option. You can go with Fedora (the current officially endorsed distro), NixOS, Debian, Ubuntu, Gentoo, Alpine and more.
The goal of the Asahi project is to make any ARM64 distro work - by submitting all of the drivers upstream and getting them integrated into mainline Linux.
[2/2]
I feel like if properly reengineered, you could make this much more compact and elegant. Just like the framework design, could need some reengineering.
This gives me flashbacks to the Novena Open Laptop from 10 years ago. Though that one came with a built-in FPGA and MyriadRF SDR, since it was created by hardware hacker Bunnie. Came with a quad core and 4GB of RAM as well and all firmware was open source.
Was thinking the same thing !
The one in a folder was my favorite laptop design.
Finally a laptop where you can actually change the battery cells. Every single other laptop I have come across has a battery with a BMS built into the battery, and if you attempt to replace the cells, the BMS will literally brick itself making it impossible to replace cells.. Anti repair at it's finest.
Man, I feel old. I remember when this sort of hardware was Radio Shacks jam.
Few years ago I wanted to do laptop like this myself. It's great to see such projects.
Thanks for making this. I was shopping for a laptop recently and entertained the idea of getting this, but now I can see that it wouldn't have been the right choice. Happier with what I have now!
I love how these modular super upgradable laptops and other devices are becoming more and more popular, that is the way future should look like
Very cool portable computer. Dont know if id ever buy one but its cool to see manufaturers making crazy stuff like this. 👍
I never realized this before now but I've always wanted a clear laptop.
It's smart that they provide a PSU that is well above the machines consumption abilities.
If it only supplied 48 watts, it would burn up quickly when the machine is demanding everything the PSU can provide.
I love what MNT is doing.
I would really like them sending you a Reform Pocket as well.
Almost perfect. Needs trackpoint rather than trackball, so I don't have to lift my fingers off keyboard when I need mouse.
Run ubuntu on it and report back
What do you want him to report? "Yeah Ubuntu runs on here just like pretty much every other machine ever built"??
This channel was made to be WATCHED!
I'd like to also see the possibility of multiple compute modules in this laptop form, so that it can be like a cluster in a laptop, which would make it a unique value proposition.
I was interested up until the price. I'm sure this is great for someone, but I'm clearly not the target audience. Still, maybe someday when the price drops, this would be neat!
Agreed! 3-4-500 dollars, depending on spec and features, count me in. perhaps if they did a base model without the SSD and a cheaper non mech keyboard and such like, and could upgrade as time goes on. If I had over a grand to spend on a laptop, you bet its a daily driver and not a hacking toy like this.
Always interesting products. Thanks for another beautiful video! I see you from Italy
It looks like most of the thickness is a battery constraint. If they could swap in some standard array of flat-pack batteries - like something from mini drones maybe, I think it could get a little thinner. Or perhaps there's a popular laptop battery that will be in production for another 20 years they could borrow. Those 18650s are ubiquitous though.
Hey Jeff, a giant keyboard nerd here to explain what I think the reasoning behind the keyboard is.
Firstly the control key, it's likely it's there because that's what the HHKB (Happy hacking keyboard) does with it's layout.
Second the split keyboard is fairly common on smaller keyboards so that you can change layers, my guess is that the left is used to go up a layer and the right is for going down.
Third the small spacebar in the middle is fairly similar to what you see on the JIS-ISO layout, commonly used in Japan.
My guess here is that the creator made a keyboard that fits him, and his quirks and planned to make it different in the future. Hopefully we'll see more layout options in the future, with how easilly the parts are to swap out.
Lastly as a comment on the laptop, I'd be all in at half the price, but it's a bit outside my wallet for now. Let's hope we can get the price down in the future, even if it removes some features. Maybe things can be changes more into modules so we could change those things ourselves to get the price down.
That operators manual is epic
Not for me, but it's neat for the future innovation.
edit: It does look like the main thickness is for the batteries though, so some improvement available there.
the thickest part under the hood is actually the trackball assembly, if you have that installed. the touchpad is thin, though.
It's the batteries combined with the mechanical keyboard. Plenty of laptops with 18650s aren't noticeable thicker than an inch.
@@eDoc2020 ThinkPads, at least, with cylindrical cells have the curvature partly outside of "the box", though.
It has a trackball.
It. Has. A. *Trackball.*
Probably not for me, but I very well may buy their trackball and try to swap it into my own build.
I had one since day 1 and love it. With this thing, there is always something to tinker with, always a new project.
Looking forward to a RISC-V thing like this. Seems inevitable at this point. Probably sooner than we expect.
I'm honestly surpised I haven't seen a compute module RISC-V board yet. Perhaps I'm just not paying enough attention.
Actually, a bit of research reveals the "RISC-V ARVSOM System-on-Module". Just buy one of those, and with any luck it'll just be plug & play. (you'll likely need luck though - not all linux drivers for accessories work with the RISC-V architecture yet)
Why RISC-V? What's wrong with ARM?
@@edolg9RISC-V is truly open source, and also it's an interesting architecture
@@moarjank there’s one by Milk-V.
Love the new studio but im still hearing a slight echo but it looks great!
Wayyyy cool. Would love to have one. The price point makes me cry, though. Far outside the realm of what I am willing to spend.
True geeks know the power of the IBM Nipple! I wonder if they do a keyboard with that? My old Thinkpad had the mouse buttons above the trackpad, which was also exactly where they needed to be to use with the nipple. Also let you swap out the CD-ROM for a floppy or a second battery. Back when IBM actually made them! I'd love one of those again with a modern spec. I suppose one might hollow one out and stick one of these ARM SBC's into it.
The design seems dated in a way that doesn't negatively affect it. It certainly does look like my PowerBook 1400, but the thickness feels amazing when typing and the trackpad being smaller means your palms naturally rest just below the keyboard, keeping your fingers centered. There's cons to the design, but it will age significantly better than anything else out there. When rpi and everyone else is making more powerful chips, all it would take is a new heat sink, fan and a nice new clear acrylic base plate. Would be awesome if the company made an aluminium base plate that doubled as a heat sink, though.
Great video! Could you do one on the open-hardware PowerPC notebook? It seems like a project for OSH/OSS enthusiasts and PPC diehards, but it seems like a well-run project.
(I also commented on the short so sorry if this is déjà vu)
I'd also like to see a switch inside the case for disconnecting the battery, given disconnecting the battery is the first thing you do every time when opening it up. Those connectors are chonky, fragile and require more force that I would like to disconnect, and I've ripped one off a motherboard before.
i have been following this laptop for quite a bit, really love the industrial and kit approach but is still too damn expensive for what it is. i dont mind the thickness as i use a dell rugged laptop which is on a similar ballpark of thickness.
Small scale production increases per-unit costs.
Thank you for covering this. I'm glad this exists, and I am looking forward to when their Pocket Reform becomes available.
It looks like there's enough space in the case (with case modification) to have a trackpad and real buttons. I'm too used to trackpad now to use anything else on a laptop, and buttons are needed for fast window manager use, and also for CAD (which the hardware may be too limited for)
This is pretty cool, I have no use cases for it but I'd love to have one and take it to coffee shops. Would be an interesting conversation starter. LOVE the acrylic bottom!!
The one good selling point for that laptop is completely open and repairable, as big system more rugged too.
They should make a doomsday rugged version, a laptop meant to survive the worst of doomsdays, and be in the field! XD
Even if it's just for the cool factor, and people working in remote areas for prolonged periods of time (ie. antarctica for example)
I wish I had the money and the ability to use this laptop. But I'm glad it exists anyway
A low-profile cherry framework keyboard would be incredible
Oy, you where supposed to send all back - that included the sticker 😂 !!
There is a lot to love here. I can put up with most of the downsides. But the price is a big one and being ARM-only also is. I'd be more interested in it if there were an x86 option or something like the MiSTer FPGA in it. It seems very retro and those would be a better fit to have a retro laptop. But there are a ton of competing system on a module standards so it is hard to come up with a modular design for everything.
Would be cool if they sold a x86_64 intel/amd compute module or sold one that connects to a lattepanda or whatever x86_64 you like
Same. ARM is a deal breaker for me, and if I ever do have to pay for anything with an ARM chip, it's never over $100. I just can't see where the $1,200 price is going here.
The keyboard and trackball/pad aren't that great, and I see nothing "super modern" or cutting-edge in the machine that make me think it's a good value.
That said, I do love that it's most open-source, and very repairable. Maybe they're catering to rich nerds...?
@@SigEpBlue The economies of scale make a big difference here. The reason why other laptops are so cheap in comparison is that cater to the mass market. Design costs can be spread out and parts purchased in bulk. This is why you can find a smartphone cheaper than a dev-board. But that is still a lot of money for that.
I love this concept, but I would really like a 21 inch display
I really love the philosophy.
Love the idea and the concept is awesome but it's a bit too high priced for the performance you get. I really hope they can get the price to come down over time. The framework seems like the better purchase at the moment. I do hope they succeed with this endeavor though! The market as a whole needs to adopt a repair and replace model. It's great to see more companies coming out with repairable systems again.
0:09 ✅ It's a bit thicc.
It may be thick but a lot of people would love the freedom of being able to modify their device or even have easily replaceable parts. That is not something that will ever happen with a MacBook or any other Apple device!!
The lack of open source trackpad stuff is one of the weirdest matrix glitches. It seems like it would entice devs more as its a very concise issue: I mean also one of the sexier one-and-done elements of a linux desktop.
It's gotten a LOT better in the past few years-it used to be absolutely painful to use a trackpad with Linux. Now at least it's on par with Windows in most scenarios (IMO). Just... Apple was leaps and bounds ahead when they went all-in on the glass trackpad designs a few years back.
Great video! This is not the type of laptop I see every day for sure!
It's kind of unsettling that he keeps referring to "MacBooks and ChromeBooks," as if the Linux enthusiast community doesn't all but exclusively use Windows (targeted) hardware... Nevermind that the general populace overwhelmingly buys Windows when they shop laptops. This is like comparing every car to the Hyundai equivalent.
Who the hell uses a MacBook except pretentious snobs who pretend to know about "computers" yet have to pay ridiculous prices to have Geniuses fix it..
Don't get me started on Chromebooks worthless trash 🗑️🤬
I think this would be cool because they don't sell laptop barebones l been looking for 20+ years only drawback is using a SMB but the new Pi 5 looks promising with a GPU Hat, I want to build the ultimate hacker cyberdeck with that thing
Also, the Linux or Raspberry Pi journey typically begins with starting up a windows machine.
Frfr😂😂
@@russc788mine never has. Though most of my computers are used and started life with Windows, before the version for their specs went EOL and they were liquidated by the original owners.
I am sold, thanks for the review jeff.
Finally a laptop with the mid 90s in mind, just need beige as a color option now, the more you use, the yellower it becomes.
Also ill make the lid solar, just seems the way to go in my eyes.
That ctrl key being in the RIGHT PLACE out of the box is really awesome. :D
As someone who loathes thin and light laptops, the only thing bugging me is that price tag. Everything else about it is BEYOND lovely.
Exactly... the thickness is a selling point for me just as much as the modability.
I like the thickness of it too. Gives me a feeling of stability.
Being able to replace individual cells for battery's is wonderful, so happy to see that
At around 4:46 you give viewers the impression that all Linux distros boot into a command line console (which might scare away potential Linux users). Actually, such is definitely not the case with the vast majority of Linux distros, as the boot normally takes you into a GUI (unless you run something like the server version of Ubuntu). In fact, it is my opinion that a distro such as KDE Plasma for example has a far superior and easier to use GUI than either Windows or Mac OS,. However, I really don't like the Linux implementation on your laptop, as it doesn't seem to be very user-friendly or well implemented, and would not consider it to be a representation of modern Linux systems. I used to be an avid Windows user and switched only 8 months ago to Linux. My only regret is that my incorrect preconception that Linux was for geeks, didn't allow me to do so sooner. Anyway, since then I never looked back.
I like it, finally not some scrap laptop. but something I put together for myself, I have old HP laptops more than 20 years old, disassembled or in one piece, they still had material.
This could be one of those, but it's priced in gold, and for many people, including me, that's unaffordable. Then you can buy a second hand business laptop with a replaceable memory NVME, SSD, Procesor. But the initiative, if you do not look at the price, especially the scythe is 10/10. Good luck and good hope to those who manage to buy the configuration that suits them.
Almost 2 grand for same specs as a 200 dollar phone... no thanks. Almost 200 dollars for a Pi adapter, and 300 for banana pi? Geebus. This is never going to be mainstream with those prices.
Yeah that’s the thing tho: it’s not meant to be mainstream. This is 100% designed for the .01% that prototypes new hardware and software combos . This is SUPER niche, but that’s what it was designed for
Id buy it just to support future development if i had extra cash to burn 🤷♀️
Good thing it’s not meant to be
So cool! ... More to add to my "Want" list. Thanks Jeff!
Man, being able to swap the SBC is interesting. Too bad it is so thick. Would be fun if the Framework has this option.
Man your new Studio Setup looks awesome. So clean and well lit 🤩
With the way it looks I am unsure if I would dare to take it to any airport, even if I show them that its a laptop. But besides that its seems like a great step in the right direction and I hope more companies besides them and Framework join the fight
Looks???? Having flown domestically in the US twice, in the last few months, I can say this would not be a problem. I did not have to take my laptop or another electronics out of my carry-on bag. (I did have everything in clear plastics bags just in case). The scanners (at the air ports) are pretty amazing,
The battery setup, love it.
How i buy this laptop
Two things: As a user of trackpads who never uses the buttons... Double tap and hold on the second tap to drag, and tap with two fingers to right click. Not sure if this thing's trackpad is configured that way, but pretty much every modern machine I've used is set up to do that.
Second.... The USB ports are upside down. Sad.
Looks like a neat device though!
Can you draw a dashed line if using such trackpads? I've seen laptops with software that configure its trackpad, for example to use its edge for scrolling. A better solution is to do the same for left & right click, use an area on the trackpad for clicking instead of double-tapping.
You can, it's not gonna be particularly efficient though. Double tap and hold, drag, lift, touch, drag, lift, double tap and hold, drag, lift, touch, drag, ect...
FINALLY, the video is up
Heh took me long enough!
@@JeffGeerling i've been waiting since the twitter post you made about it
This is absolutely delightful.
I am in love
This laptop is a FIREHAZARD. The clamps holding the batteries are all metal, including the ones at the positive side. They easily cut through the very thin plastic cover which makes those clamps touch the metal side of the battery, which is connected to the negative side. This means the clamp at the positive side is VERY prone to short circuiting the batteries.
Buying this machine could be a valid political statement even if it's not the best value for money; especially for those who can afford it
That control key position is exactly how I map my keys for NVIM 😂😂
The thickness definitely appeals to me...i own two 90s machines and it will fit right in
Id definitely get this...if it was more affordable.
4 Amps at 24V is 96W not 48W (the power adapter is 24V 2.5A BTW...)
Gaaah you're right! I even have that nice closeup of the adapter on the screen at 3:23 - I'll add a 'correction' for the video that should pop in that section. D'oh!
Would be cool, if somebody with the skill could make a keyboard with a trackpoint for this. Not too bad, but a little too heavy and little too thick for my taste, to carry every day. But definitively nice project, that could see evolution in the future. In general I like the idea.
I love the look of that MNT mini
“Apple’s trackpad is still my gold standard” and it also doesn’t have any physical buttons
But it allows push to click, tons of gestures, right click, etc!
@@JeffGeerling and “push even harder to click again”
damn that manual is fire
It's amazing seeing the hackability of this design and I love the direction MNT and Framework are going. I have the funds for something like this but I'll admit - this isn't for me and I think that's okay. Much respect for the honest review! :)