4000 Baton Test | 1095 Knife vs & MagnaCut CPM S35VN 3V 10V Nitro-V Vanadis 4E & PGK
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- Опубліковано 23 тра 2024
- ESEE 6 in 1095 vs CPM 3V, Nitro V, 10V, Vanadis 4E, MagnaCut, PGK & S35VN. A whopping 4000 Batoning Strikes fall in this hard use test - on knives from ESEE / Randall's Adventure Gear, Zero Tolerance Tactical Knives, Kizylar Supreme, Arno Bernard, Charles Jones & Wade Jensen Custom Knives. As well as appearances from the Razor Edge Knives (REK) model Q in 63 HRC MagnaCut.
Which steel holds an edge best batoning into pine wood, 1095 Carbon steel? Or 3V, 10V, Nitro-V, Lohman PGK, Bohler Vanadis 4, CPM Magnacut, or S35VN...
Let's find out!
Also check out my tutorials on dual grit sharpening.
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Think: high performance aggressive knife edge!!! This method for versatile razor sharp knives is fast, easy, and leads to edge retention increases of up to 50% in some tasks! Watch my tutorials to quickly learn innovative hand sharpening techniques with whetstone, diamond plate, & honing strop.
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scienceofsharp.com/2021/06/15...
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This is the most informative test I've seen yet. I don't encounter cardboard very often in the wilderness
😆 great comment. I think that CATRA and cardboard are probably more precise than this test, and they both have their place. I'm immensely grateful for the work of others in edge retention testing. I just thought it was worth comparing impact on wood against existing metrics to see what changes. I definitely found the results interesting.
Cheers bro.
That’s an awesome test man! It really shows how catra (which determines slicing edge retention) isn’t the best indicator for edge retention when it comes to batoning. What matters more is edge stability. So a balance of high hardness with a high toughness out perform steels that are just high in hardness or toughness.
Yeah, I think I have experienced this somewhat, but I enjoyed quantifying it!
Thanks for the comment, have a great day!!!
Great video there Gabe, with some surprising results ！
Indeed! Nice job on that heat treatment, my friend!
Awesome vid Gabe, thanks for the effort 😊👌
Thanks mate! Hope all is well with you!
For the price, 1095 looks very impressive.
Yeah, I was not disappointed with it's performance in this test at all.
Cheers bro.
Great video. I have same experience with chef knives. They don't come in contact with abrasive materials and edge is lost by rolling or chipping. Abrasion resistance in this situation may help a bit but not much.
I would rather have a high hardness high toughness steel. They last a lot longer than soft steel and can withstand a very fine edge for better cutting performance.
Your results seem right but being strict for the sake fair comparison it's important that you sharpen them at same angle with same stones. Different angle or different level of polish will change results. It would also be nice to know hardness of all of them if available. Same steel with different heat treatment will change the durability a lot
I agree. High toughness and hardness is where it's at for kitchen or wood work.
Yeah, they are all at the same angle (17dps sorry, I thought I mentioned in the video), and all the steels under 3% Vanadium are done on Waterstones for easier deburring (in my opinion), all the ones 3% and up are done on diamond water stones for optimal carbide structure (to give them the best chance). All are polished up to roughly 1 micron then stropped on unloaded kangaroo tail.
Cheers!
Here Gabe is testing edges in new and novel ways, there is a discussion about edge stability in the spyderco forums that I believe these results are relevant to.
Thanks man! I will see if I can find it and post it - have an awesome day!!!
I've added it!
@@homeslicesharpening dude you rock!
Like the way NitroV performed also. Underrated steel especially at a higher hardness. Production companies don’t do it justice with the heat treat
Yeah, I really like the stuff - thanks for your input!
@@homeslicesharpening you welcome. That was a good test
Thanks!
By the way, I've brought the edge of the Mille Cuori (Vanadis 4 Extra) down to 68 g sharpness, just with one full sharpening session. It's stupid easy to sharpen, compared to it's amount of hardness/edge retention
Yeah, I have yet to use properly made Vaadis4E, I am sure it is a dream. I don't believe this test indicates a problem at all with Vanadis - just perhaps a flawed heat treatment, or I could have made some mistakes in sharpening it.
PS 68 g is awesome! Great work!!!
Already excited,
Haha I was so stoked to see what the results were too.
1 nice thing would be to add a screen shot showing all 3 results so we don’t have to try and remember what previous results were.
Sure man. I have a big recap video coming 3 weeks from tomorrow where I display and discuss all the data together. Stop back by the channel and check it out if you want to hear the conclusions of this and the next 2 survival sharpening episodes!
Awesome thx
My go to steels were 1095 and S35vn up until Magnacut came out. I still love my S35vn but Magnacut @63/64 hrc blows it out of the water for my uses, small ranch chores and daily carry. I still use 1095 (mainly Esees) as my 'beater' steel but am starting to get into 80CRV2, jury is still out on which one of those I prefer. I am curious about how much the different blade geometries effected the test.
Yeah - I would not have a way to directly quantify the effect of geometry but I am sure it played a big part. I am doing some testing right now of 1095 CroVan vs 80CrV2 in chopping application. Liking the 80Cr so far!!!
Cheers!
@@homeslicesharpening I look forward to seeing that. I recently ordered several Tkell blades in 80CRV2, he swears by the stuff so we'll see.
I'm liking mine so far!
Cheers, like 3v, getting into magnacut. All the best
Vanadis 4 Extra = Better than 3V, M390 = Better than Magnacut...No comparision at all Easier to sharpen yet hold their edge way longer!!
3V is great, MagnaCut is great. They are like a spectrum from highest edge stability/impact resistance to highest corrosion resistance 4V/Vanadis4E - 3V - MagnaCut.
Vanadis4E ought to be amazing. This one was really gummy on the sharpening stones. I suspect heat treat in an old ZT may not be optimal - could be my sharpening, but this knife has underperformed in several other tests as well, and sharpened nothing like the Spyderco 4V I've sharpenened.
Knives got sharper after use is kind of rediculous.
I think the measurement tolerance is too high with BESS, which makes random scatter have a greater impact on the reading than the actual dulling, therefore, dulling probalbly can’t be measured accurately.
Welcome to the channel! And that's a fair observation. Upon thinking about it later, I probably stated that observation poorly.
I suppose that one of the first rules of scientific thought is that we cannot say for certain, only observe and observe again until a pattern becomes evident. I have done enough chop/baton/impact testing on wood to establish a pattern of dulling on BESS in which the number often increases at a certain point before falling more quickly.
Admittedly, I am just making observations, and it could be due to the limitations of BESS. I certainly agree that the BESS Machine tends (presently) to be over-relied-on and it is not without flaws. If such randomness were the cause though, I find it unlikely that a strong pattern would emerge, rather the readings would be uniformly "scattered" as you worded it without a repeatable pattern.
If I could go back and re-word my observation, I would probably say something like this:
"When rope-cut testing, the abrasion always causes a quick and predictable increase in BESS reading. I think this is because the abrasive-wear gently wears the edge apex round without violently removing damaged metal."
"However, when chopping or batoning wood, my observed BESS readings reliably decrease shortly before rising to "dull" levels. I do not believe this dynamic should be understood as 'getting sharper' but rather that high-velocity push-cut style strikes into wood tend to strip away damaged metal in ways that reshape the apex to temporarily be more efficient in a BESS test - where back-and-forth slicing are not used (and aggression not quantified) and all that matters is apex width and 'cleanness' from damaged metal or microburr."
...Or the whole system could be flawed and none of us should take ourselves so seriously, starting with me 🤣
In any case, I hope you have a great day. Cheers.
Awsome experiments ! As Dr Thomas said, 14c28n was his preferred steel, before Magnacut came. Basecally NitroV...
That test shows several things. First, geometry is key. Because the blades and edge profile were so different, the amounts of pressure at the apex were very different too and it may have been a big factor, a potential bias, may I suggest.
Second is that, for the specific task of batoning, hardness plays a huge role in edge retention, more that vanadium amount. 63 NitroV is rare, I am impressed. Imo 63 is the hardness where it begins to make a big difference.
I think that if you had a 62 S35vn and a 60 Magnacut, they would perform the same. We rarely see high hardness on production knives, it's too bad!
I really would have think 10v would have lead if not broken or chipped.
#65K390
Great comment! I agree on all counts. There is definitely some amount of bias due to edge thickness and HT - I hope I gave room for that in the video and made it clear.
The 63 HRC NitroV was in a knife gifted by a custom knife-maker named Wade Jensen. He's in the comments in this video if you want to hit him up for a knife, and he's on Facebook as Jensen Knives.
@@homeslicesharpening Oh thanks. Yes it was clear, you test production knives in a home environment, and it's awsome !
Alas I am not able to treat myself with customs, but thanks for the tip. I do some hobbyist knife making with some xc75 and a forge, but I admit that, as a steel nerd, it's kind of frustrating !
That makes sense, I hope your forging ends up giving you some gratifying results my friend.
Where do you get these test ideas?
Haha, not sure if that is a compliment or an incredulous remark, but 🤣 they come from the recesses of my brain.
It's a very strange place indeed. It helps with ideas being innovative that I don't get absorbed too much into existing testing because I like to make final decisions based mainly on observations I've made myself, so my testing is sometimes relatively un-influenced by the prevailing thoughts of the day (basically other than input from knifesteelnerds and scienceofsharp and Pete) for better and occasionally for worse.
But I'm definitely having fun.
If you liked this test - you are gonna love the video that comes out in a couple days! Haha!
In order for the steel to be comparable, all blades have to be exactly the same. Including the grind. So it's a lottery
Yeah, there is probably some truth to your claim, but as I don't have access to blade blanks exactly the same geometry - I'm constrained.
Which way would you suspect the grind to tip it? If I look at the data, I could see a correlation that grinds thinner at the edge seem to perform better. Or are you saying that thicker edges should be more durable?
If thickness is a disadvantage that would partially make sense of the ESEE's poor performance, and Vanadis4E being a flop when it should be the most durable steel tested. Steel definitely does seem to play a factor though, as the S35VN and NitroV are similar thickness overall and at the edge (so fairly similar geometry) and the NitroV performed startlingly better.
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts, they would only enrich the conversation!
@@homeslicesharpening I hope you didn't take my words as criticism🙏. All the testing and steels is very difficult to get conclusive results. And an extremely large amount of work. Unfortunately, certain steels are often spoken about badly on the web and hyped up. But it's really mainly the geometry and the edge that determine how well they perform for different applications. I prefer a thin edge on EDC knives (15-18 per side), geared towards cutting. For knives for 'bushcraft' and stuff like that, 20 per side. Higher (23-25 per side) only for 'survival'-like stuff. I hope you understand my confusing lines. My English isn't the best🙈🤣
Oh, thanks for clarifying. No I agree about hype and negative reviews that are blown out of proportion. I was hoping to clarify to you that I am aware the research is imperfect, and hope that it is represented this way so that people understand. Thanks for taking the time to get back to me. All the best.
Actually razors, are closer to 40 g I've done my tests. These look like factory sharpness which in any case, isn't an edge that should be used. Even if it's not a mass produced knife,where the edge comes with burnt steel and not a polished edge bevel,a new knife still has to be sharpened, if not reprofiled to a slight convex too, in order to perform to it's potential. Actually, for a steel to show it's true performance, it takes at least 2 to 3 full sharpening sesions. That and a proper edge, not only can boost the performance 5 times more, but also te edge won't chip as it does when you use a new knife with it's factory edge. People have so little knowledge, that they complain in many cases, about their edge that chiped with normal use.. It's not the knife, it's their ignorance about all these I mentioned, about the edge and sharpening.
Thanks for the comment. I agree. These have all been hand sharpened to 17 dps and none of them are a first sharpening on the knife.
All the steels under 3% Vanadium are done on SueHiro Waterstones for easier deburring than diamond (in my opinion), all the ones 3% Vanadium and up are done on diamond water stones for optimal carbide structure (to give them the best chance at stability). All are polished up to roughly 1 micron then stropped on unloaded kangaroo tail.
The numbers are not below 100 g BESS mainly either because:
- Heat treatment seemed to be a little off (in the Vanadis4 ZT and Arno Bernard S35VN)
- I micro-convexed them all slightly on hanging strops before testing to create extra stability
Cheers!