A hot water tank is a very simple setup, other than the eventual rusting and leaking of the tank, nothing should ever really go wrong. A drip tray connected to the drain and a smart water sensor, will prevent any flooding when the tank eventually fails. Also, you can definitely get endless hot water from a natural gas hot water tank too. Mine will run 2 gallons per minute, continuously, which actually means I get about 3 gallons per minute of tempered hot water, for usage. The Navien is one of the best tankless units, I have one installed for my garage, but it’s a complex machine and there are many more parts to go wrong, including a full microprocessor based control board. But the more worrying issue, is that the heat exchanger uses narrow channels to run the water through. Mineral deposits will eventually build-up in these channels, reducing the efficiency of the unit and necessitating a service. Depending upon your location, municipal water can have a high degree of dissolved minerals, these could necessitate servicing every year. However, the service is really easy, you can buy a pump, bucket and pair of hoses for less than $100 and just flush the unit every year (or even 6 months), with white vinegar for 20 mins, and it’s all done. Personally, I would only go with a tankless where I absolutely had to, or as a backup. Otherwise, a hot water tank is the more simple, reliable and cost effective solution.
I'm a Navien service specialists if you install the recirculation that comes standard on the A model you will get hot water in 3 to 5 seconds, also if you loose power allot you can install a UPS backup for a few hundred $ the amp draw is only around 1 amp.
Also people say you need a whole separate line for a return for recirculation even if you have an A model. That's not true, buy the Navi circ valve and put on the last fixture. ua-cam.com/video/ZFgQGD_Brts/v-deo.html
Spot on about the cons. Most are more of realizing it is not instant hot water. Cost over time is not a con. Just a lot up front. I have the same brand 240S. I have had mine for almost 4 years. I went with the recommendation of my local salesman and did not get the recirculation pump. He stated that the reason why I said I was going to a tankless system was to save money. The cost and benefit of adding the recirculation pump and plumbing to my master bathroom would have been close the install cost of just the system itself. The only upgrade that I am considering is replacing the "motherboard" so that I can wireless control the hot water heater. Just haven't came up with a use case that I need to have remote access to the system.
Do you have e recirculating system in your house? Is you Navian come with a built in recirculating pump/ or have a exterior pump? The Navian can be programmed to circulate hot water at times your most likely to take showers so your hot water is there when you need it. I’m not sure but this is what I gathered through the instructions depending on the model. Let me know what you think.
This is a decent and balanced review of all tankless water heaters. One additional distinction between tank and tankless water heaters is the complexity of each. With a tank occasionally you might have an issue with the pilot light or igniter. With a tankless and all of its electronics, if you have an issue good luck getting it fixed quickly and accurately. You and your plumber will get to be good friends with the technical support of the manufacturer while waiting on hold to speak with someone. I have had 2 different tankless waters for over 10 years and trying to get them fixed correctly and in a timely fashion has not been a fun experience. Many of the "factory authorized" technicians spend one day and a seminar and become a jack of all trades and a master of none. You need to find a installer/technician who has dealt with these for many years if you are considering going tankless. One additional thought - the advertised flow rate is a function on the desired temperature of the water and the temperature of the incoming water. Many units are based on a rise of 30-35 degrees. Lets chose 30 degrees. If your model is advertised as 9 gallons / minute with a rise of 30 degrees, then your incoming water temp should be 90 degrees if you want 120 degrees out. As the incoming water temp drops the output flow has to drop to maintain the 120 degree out temperature. Each manufacturer has a chart which shows the various flow rates and associated incoming and outgoing temperatures for each model. There the gpm rating on a model is just a starting point and will be less, sometimes much less depending on a number of factors.
This is spot on! and why we always recommend this product to our customers - pertaining to the cost, we've partnered with Hearth to allow clients a better option to pay a small amount over time
I owned one house with this system. Glad I sold it. I owned another house with tankless water heater, that system ended up in the landfill. Went back to hot water tank house. Happy camper again. Never will I ever buy another house with tankless water heater.
Robert Boland No, I don’t think so, I’m pretty much cut up in today’s technical world and matters of computer science. But I am a smart shopper, I like to make up my own mind about what I buy. Maybe I have been unfortunate that the units (tankless units) I’ve encountered have been plain duds, or maybe they were the cheapest in the market and not suitable for the size of the house, I don’t know, but I have to go with what I have gone through. That said, I realize there are gullible folk out there who are always ready to jump in the hype and fall pray, face down to an aggressive commercial campaign. Could you be one of those?
No I'm not one of those. I'm a plumber and I agree that there a very few good tankless heaters out there. But the brand I have installed and use in my own home, Navien, is nothing short of amazing
Robert Boland Good to read that you are not one of them, and since you are in the profession, let me say this, and please take no offense, but one of the plumbers that came to derive a unit once, he did not have any idea on what to do. With that in mind, let me try to be fair, maybe it not the system that is less than they claim, maybe is some of the so call technicians. No offense, please, but this guy took me for a ride after he finished servicing the unit in 20 minutes. Flushing the system I understand takes at least one hour. Have a good day.
alcamerc 99 Sounds like you do not understand that getting the correct tankless water heater requires you to understand things such as BTUs, ground water average temperature, electric vs gas tankless model, and amount of water flowing from all of your spigots. Thinking that others are as lazy as you (they buy into the hype-but you make up your own mind) is priceless. Or am I wrong-did you do your due diligence and search out the aspects I pointed out before you gave up on it?
I’m going to pull the trigger on a navien, the hvac company said since I’m having a new furnace installed they will put it in for no charge if I do it at the same time. Is yours the 180s model?
I’m confused...if the tankless springs a leak, you will end up with many many gallons of water all over your floor...it’s being supplied with endless water from the street/well, no?
no, it only holds a gallon. it only refills when it comes on. so, if it leaks and you don't turn on your hot water, you're fine. so, just about a gallon in your floor :)
Just realized we are renting a townhouse with a ten year-old HW heater. :( I'm going to recommend to the owner this as an alternative that may save them trouble down the road. Thanks for the reviews, Rando. You're well spoken, have great vid quality, and are honest. Please keep them coming. Merry Christmas!
I have had a Navien tankless water heater for 7 years now rubber hose clamps are not holding have water damage in the basement and there will be maintenance on tankless the water heaters there are pumps circuit boards and hose connections that will all need service and you use more water waiting to get water hot when using the washing machine being on cycle it takes the water heater longer to get hot so you getting more cold water then hot I made a very bad choice getting tankless I'am taking out
40 or 50 gallon in your house will be the best option. Only gas, you pay maybie 15 dollars more per month but water tanks dont need to much maintenance and are only 800 dollars..i have 3 like that for every floor for my tenancy and they have always hot water and i never called anybody to do my maintenance i do it by myself ..it will last for 10 years average and all that it cost me pennants comparing to tankless that you have to do service every years parts are expensive and other issues.....
Are you located in the south or up north? I am in Wisconsin and was given a 2500-3500 ballpark to have a Navian installed. I have someone coming in a couple days to give me a more accurate estimate. My worry is with how cold my groundwater is can I run the dishwasher, washing machine, and the shower at the same time? I know this isn't a concern down south.
twennywonn down south. I never thought about that but I would think it will work just fine because they use these all over the world. We’re just a little bit behind the times in America. Good luck!
I was quoted over $500 for servicing. And worse yet, the manufacturer recommends servicing the unit every couple of years. Is it worth it? I got rid of my 10 years old tankless and replaced with tank water heater.
i am in the business for 30 years...regular tank water heater is better, dont use electricity dont require especifil maintenance youll have a lot of hot water and ,,,,,tankless is too much problem. if you save some gas you will end up paying more
Mean u old timer Plumber love old school furnaces and heater just understand technology change game like scotty old school mechanic don't like new baterry cars like Tesla bcz him don't understand how their work take care
A hot water tank is a very simple setup, other than the eventual rusting and leaking of the tank, nothing should ever really go wrong. A drip tray connected to the drain and a smart water sensor, will prevent any flooding when the tank eventually fails.
Also, you can definitely get endless hot water from a natural gas hot water tank too. Mine will run 2 gallons per minute, continuously, which actually means I get about 3 gallons per minute of tempered hot water, for usage.
The Navien is one of the best tankless units, I have one installed for my garage, but it’s a complex machine and there are many more parts to go wrong, including a full microprocessor based control board.
But the more worrying issue, is that the heat exchanger uses narrow channels to run the water through. Mineral deposits will eventually build-up in these channels, reducing the efficiency of the unit and necessitating a service. Depending upon your location, municipal water can have a high degree of dissolved minerals, these could necessitate servicing every year. However, the service is really easy, you can buy a pump, bucket and pair of hoses for less than $100 and just flush the unit every year (or even 6 months), with white vinegar for 20 mins, and it’s all done.
Personally, I would only go with a tankless where I absolutely had to, or as a backup. Otherwise, a hot water tank is the more simple, reliable and cost effective solution.
I'm a Navien service specialists if you install the recirculation that comes standard on the A model you will get hot water in 3 to 5 seconds, also if you loose power allot you can install a UPS backup for a few hundred $ the amp draw is only around 1 amp.
Also people say you need a whole separate line for a return for recirculation even if you have an A model. That's not true, buy the Navi circ valve and put on the last fixture. ua-cam.com/video/ZFgQGD_Brts/v-deo.html
Your Pros do outweigh the Cons, which is quite similar to my neighbors. Thank You for a concise review and nothing extra. They were very helpful.
just had one installed today and you covered and affirmed everything I've been told on pros/cons- thanks!
T Thomas glad to help! Enjoy the endless hot water!
Spot on about the cons. Most are more of realizing it is not instant hot water. Cost over time is not a con. Just a lot up front. I have the same brand 240S. I have had mine for almost 4 years. I went with the recommendation of my local salesman and did not get the recirculation pump. He stated that the reason why I said I was going to a tankless system was to save money. The cost and benefit of adding the recirculation pump and plumbing to my master bathroom would have been close the install cost of just the system itself. The only upgrade that I am considering is replacing the "motherboard" so that I can wireless control the hot water heater. Just haven't came up with a use case that I need to have remote access to the system.
Do you have e recirculating system in your house? Is you Navian come with a built in recirculating pump/ or have a exterior pump? The Navian can be programmed to circulate hot water at times your most likely to take showers so your hot water is there when you need it. I’m not sure but this is what I gathered through the instructions depending on the model. Let me know what you think.
Please let me know if I’m wrong.
Yes I own a navien 240a built with recirculation pump work great not waiting for hot water at all day and night
This is a decent and balanced review of all tankless water heaters. One additional distinction between tank and tankless water heaters is the complexity of each. With a tank occasionally you might have an issue with the pilot light or igniter. With a tankless and all of its electronics, if you have an issue good luck getting it fixed quickly and accurately. You and your plumber will get to be good friends with the technical support of the manufacturer while waiting on hold to speak with someone. I have had 2 different tankless waters for over 10 years and trying to get them fixed correctly and in a timely fashion has not been a fun experience. Many of the "factory authorized" technicians spend one day and a seminar and become a jack of all trades and a master of none. You need to find a installer/technician who has dealt with these for many years if you are considering going tankless. One additional thought - the advertised flow rate is a function on the desired temperature of the water and the temperature of the incoming water. Many units are based on a rise of 30-35 degrees. Lets chose 30 degrees. If your model is advertised as 9 gallons / minute with a rise of 30 degrees, then your incoming water temp should be 90 degrees if you want 120 degrees out. As the incoming water temp drops the output flow has to drop to maintain the 120 degree out temperature. Each manufacturer has a chart which shows the various flow rates and associated incoming and outgoing temperatures for each model. There the gpm rating on a model is just a starting point and will be less, sometimes much less depending on a number of factors.
This is spot on! and why we always recommend this product to our customers - pertaining to the cost, we've partnered with Hearth to allow clients a better option to pay a small amount over time
Navien has the ability to circulate that hot water, without wasting any of it.
I owned one house with this system. Glad I sold it. I owned another house with tankless water heater, that system ended up in the landfill. Went back to hot water tank house. Happy camper again. Never will I ever buy another house with tankless water heater.
Stuck in the past
Robert Boland
No, I don’t think so, I’m pretty much cut up in today’s technical world and matters of computer science. But I am a smart shopper, I like to make up my own mind about what I buy. Maybe I have been unfortunate that the units (tankless units) I’ve encountered have been plain duds, or maybe they were the cheapest in the market and not suitable for the size of the house, I don’t know, but I have to go with what I have gone through. That said, I realize there are gullible folk out there who are always ready to jump in the hype and fall pray, face down to an aggressive commercial campaign. Could you be one of those?
No I'm not one of those. I'm a plumber and I agree that there a very few good tankless heaters out there. But the brand I have installed and use in my own home, Navien, is nothing short of amazing
Robert Boland
Good to read that you are not one of them, and since you are in the profession, let me say this, and please take no offense, but one of the plumbers that came to derive a unit once, he did not have any idea on what to do. With that in mind, let me try to be fair, maybe it not the system that is less than they claim, maybe is some of the so call technicians. No offense, please, but this guy took me for a ride after he finished servicing the unit in 20 minutes. Flushing the system I understand takes at least one hour. Have a good day.
alcamerc 99 Sounds like you do not understand that getting the correct tankless water heater requires you to understand things such as BTUs, ground water average temperature, electric vs gas tankless model, and amount of water flowing from all of your spigots. Thinking that others are as lazy as you (they buy into the hype-but you make up your own mind) is priceless. Or am I wrong-did you do your due diligence and search out the aspects I pointed out before you gave up on it?
I got an estimate and this is what I got. Tank 40 gallons was 1950.00 tankless 6950.00. Tankless way too much.
I’m going to pull the trigger on a navien, the hvac company said since I’m having a new furnace installed they will put it in for no charge if I do it at the same time. Is yours the 180s model?
I’m confused...if the tankless springs a leak, you will end up with many many gallons of water all over your floor...it’s being supplied with endless water from the street/well, no?
no, it only holds a gallon. it only refills when it comes on. so, if it leaks and you don't turn on your hot water, you're fine. so, just about a gallon in your floor :)
Rando Reviews oh that’s good to know
Just realized we are renting a townhouse with a ten year-old HW heater. :( I'm going to recommend to the owner this as an alternative that may save them trouble down the road. Thanks for the reviews, Rando. You're well spoken, have great vid quality, and are honest. Please keep them coming. Merry Christmas!
Earthquakeville Anytime! Thanks for watching!
I have had a Navien tankless water heater for 7 years now rubber hose clamps are not holding have water damage in the basement and there will be maintenance on tankless the water heaters there are pumps circuit boards and hose connections that will all need service and you use more water waiting to get water hot when using the washing machine being on cycle it takes the water heater longer to get hot so you getting more cold water then hot I made a very bad choice getting tankless I'am taking out
40 or 50 gallon in your house will be the best option. Only gas, you pay maybie 15 dollars more per month but water tanks dont need to much maintenance and are only 800 dollars..i have 3 like that for every floor for my tenancy and they have always hot water and i never called anybody to do my maintenance i do it by myself ..it will last for 10 years average and all that it cost me pennants comparing to tankless that you have to do service every years parts are expensive and other issues.....
Are you located in the south or up north? I am in Wisconsin and was given a 2500-3500 ballpark to have a Navian installed. I have someone coming in a couple days to give me a more accurate estimate. My worry is with how cold my groundwater is can I run the dishwasher, washing machine, and the shower at the same time? I know this isn't a concern down south.
twennywonn down south. I never thought about that but I would think it will work just fine because they use these all over the world. We’re just a little bit behind the times in America. Good luck!
Just wait for that 400 dollar service bill man
I was quoted over $500 for servicing. And worse yet, the manufacturer recommends servicing the unit every couple of years. Is it worth it? I got rid of my 10 years old tankless and replaced with tank water heater.
i am in the business for 30 years...regular tank water heater is better, dont use electricity dont require especifil maintenance youll have a lot of hot water and ,,,,,tankless is too much problem. if you save some gas you will end up paying more
Mean u old timer Plumber love old school furnaces and heater just understand technology change game like scotty old school mechanic don't like new baterry cars like Tesla bcz him don't understand how their work take care