"You would not believe half of what is happening in King's Landing, sweetling. Cersei stumbles from one idiocy to the next, helped along by her council of the deaf, the dim, and the blind. I always anticipated that she would beggar the realm and destroy herself, but I never expected she would do it quite so fast. It is quite vexing. I had hoped to have four or five quiet years to plant some seeds and allow some fruits to ripen, but now..." Littlefinger to Sansa. They really should have had that exchange in the series 😂
You cant say Hot Pie would be the worst master of ships cause he would be awesome at it. Just think about how much harder the Oarsmen would work knowing they will get delicious bakery stuff every day
What is funny about Cersei's concil is, Pycelle being the lickspittle of the previous councils being the sole guy who gives true advice to her while the others just lick her boots.
@@CheeseCrumbs00in Storm he was the dumbest among a great Great Small Council with Smart people Then Tywin dies,Tyrion And later varys fuck off to Essos and Littlefinger went to the vale Now is the smartest among the dumbest Council ever
Also, aurane waters used to serve under stannis. Cersei hired a guy who was her enemy just recently and didn't have a ready to go fleet because she thought he was hot. It's so funny
Cmon we've all been there, you're into a guy and he wants some boats so you empower a religious militia but then he steals your ships because he was a fuckboy 😞
@@alphagamer9505 It makes sense in the sense that Stannis and Renley are two sides of the same coin - Stannis, being the dutiful brother, assembled a council and appointed a hand and did all the things expected in statebuilding, while Renley sat back and hosted tourneys to appoint his kingsguard - working on the more flashy elements of kingskhip
Personally I think Grand Maester Munkun is the worst Grand Maester due to his support of Unwin Peake and his terrible ideas and things he did, and he was a participant in leading and acting as Unwin's middleman during The Secret Siege to the point it's amazing he wasn't fired afterwards.
@@BatFlash52 the Grand Maester is chosen by the Conclave of Archmaesters that rule the Citadel, not the monarch. The monarch can only bar the Grand Maester from attending council meetings, but can't actually otherwise fire whomever holds that title.
@@DominionSorcerer I mean, Maegor straight up executed the Grand Maester (twice, I think) so that seemed to work. And even in the main series there was talk of replacing Pycelle with a Tyrell so I would say that dismissing the Grand Maester is probably possible.
Worst Lord-Commander of the Kingsguard has to be Ser Marston Waters. He literally besieged Aegon III in his own castle, basically declared himself Hand of the King, allowed the previous and competent Hand (Thaddeus Rowan) be tortured to madness, appeared to genuinely believe Thaddeus Rowan was guilty (despite the confession being delivered under torture and duress), had a change of heart after an actual child out-logic'd him, and then died after turning on the other traitors at the last minute. There's also an implication that Marston may have been a stooge for Unwin Peake the entire time. Say what you will about Criston Cole but at least he served Aegon II somewhat competently (going by book-canon, not show-canon) and never betrayed him. Marston Waters was just Criston Cole but shittier.
And wasn’t Marston also of Aegon II’s Kingsguard that held back Aegon III as he watched Rhaenyra die? I know that’s something he didn’t have much control over but doesn’t help his cause
Unwin had complete control of everything and still failed. But let’s be real, the worst Hand of the King is Orton Merryweather. Rossart was a loyal and leal servant, while Orton abandoned Cersei like a craven the moment she was arrested and fled back to his home. That is deserving of the worst. Well, that or a failed Hand like Jon Connington…
Good hands serve the realm. Otto is a great politician but he doesnt serve the realm. Rossart is loyal but he is enabling a Massacre. Orton NOT rescuing Cersei and calling for Kevan instead is far better than anything Rossart or Crispelt etc. did. Orton realises he is not suited for the position and so he gives it to Kevan who stabilizes the realm. Getting Cersei out would be Loyal but it would also be terrible for the realm. The criteria for good small council members is not wit or loyalty but how they improve the realm.
@@niemandzuhause4897 on one hand that is true, but it's also quite awkward to give Orton any credit for "serving the realm" at that moment considering how much he was crawling up Cersei's ass the months prior lol as Ned said to Jaime in that show-only scene S1ep3: "you served him well....while serving was safe" (....and stabbed him in the back him when that was convenient). Merrywheather did jack shit to improve the realm while Cersei was in power - because destroying the realm with stupidity was benefitting him then.
Criston Cole for all the hate he gets was a pretty decent wartime hand of the king for Aegon II. He won the crownlands for Aegon, his plan at Rook's Rest was good, and if Aemond had listened to him instead of waging a one man terror campaign in the Riverlands, things would have probably turned out fine for the greens. His military decisions were all correct.
Being Hand of the King is more than just being a battlefield commander though. Cole was good at commanding armies. He was absolutely terrible at realm politics / advising the king. Being good at a different job isn't an excuse for being bad at the job in question... that said, Westeros doesn't have a specific "Master of Wars" or commander-in-chief title per se, so it is at least arguable that he was doing his duty as Hand by leading troops in lieu of the King, and I think the "worst" decisions Cole made were actually leading UP to him being named Hand, while after that point he made better/more practical decisions (because his biggest moral issues relate to the start of the Dance, after that he was reacting to consequences)
@@JimRFF I agree but during wartime he was a pretty good hand, in peacetime he would be terrible. He was a good hand of the king to Aegon II in specific, he was bad kingsguard to Viserys I and Rhaenyra.
I agree with you but you will get hate for this because the default opinion of Criston is "bad misogynist man" and therefore everything he does is apparently bad. That's how many fans see it
This is a bit of a side point, but on the topic of Pycelle- George RR Martin has said there's more to be revealed about Pycelle's devotion to Tywin and that relationship as a whole; I'd say this reveal is one of my most anticipated plot points in Winds. Great video.
This probably ties in with why Varys killed Pycelle. I mean Kevan obviously needed to die, but there had to have been a greater motive for killing the old grand maester.
@miobiuscrimson2828 Someone like Stannis or littlefinger could perhaps fill that role, having served on the small council with him. Also Sam could meet a friend of Pycelle in the citadel.
Ser Otto Hightower is nowhere near the bottom, actually he's closer to the top, he was hand for 20 years, the vault was filled, and realm was great, no thanks to Viserys who just wanted to feast and praise his daughter Ser Criston Cole was also pretty good war time hand, he was fairly decent leading the king's armies
When he said Otto I was hella confused. Viserys had a peaceful reign because of Otto. You can’t solely place the blame for dance on him. Although he is semi responsible they’re a lot of other hands who are more self serving
@@thatguywholeavestheparty6147 Otto was a much better ruler than Jon Arryn and Ned Stark, they were loyal yes, but they were also politically naive, and in administration, Otto was much better, as I said he left the royal vault filled, and he was also aware of Rhaenyra's scandals the entire time
@@Al4___ I don't know that Jon Arryn was politically naive. He was dealt the position of having to knit the nation back together between previously warring factions. There were bound to be compromises that had to be made. Given about of 15 years of mostly peace and prosperity, with Robert mostly being absent, he had to have done something right. Also, his main failure was more personal than professional. His downfall was trusting his own wife, not someone he was accusing of treason as was the case with Ned.
@@nomisunrider6472 Aurane is good at naval stuff, he just isn't loyal to the crown or Cersei at all. Being master of ships was just an opportunity to build a really good pirate fleet on the crowns dime. Hell, he might end up becoming King of the Stepstones by the end of the series
Generally when talking about the "worst" advisor, there's one of two possibilities: either they are "incompetent & trustworthy" or "competent & untrustworthy" ... Mace the Ace is a great example of the first option, where you know he's going to be loyal and say what he's actually thinking but you also shouldn't listen to him or actually take his advice... then there's characters like Varys and Littlefinger in the second category who are dangerous because they are good at what they do but they are also deeply self-interested and their advice, while good, may ultimately undermine you. And then there's Unwin Peake, who is both incompetent and untrustworthy... and that weirdly makes him "feel" less bad/evil, he's basically a cartoon slapstick villain in a world of serial killers, he just seems harmless even as he's actively trying to start (or maybe 'continue' is a better word) a civil war xD
Jaime is the worst. Killed a king, played the game of thrones with his dad, got captured, failed to protect Robert, was imprisoned for the entirety of Joffrey’s reign, let Joffrey die under his watch, and now continues to play the game of thrones in the Riverlands. And also just went missing and abandoned his duty again under tommen
@@georgecrowcroft9260 he was the lord commander but yes he wasn't there when Joffrey died. But the reason he was not there is because he fled the capital and joined Tywin's army in slaughtering and pillaging king Robert's subjects in the Riverlands. Abandoning his post, atacking an important lord (Ned Stark) without the king's permition, breaking the king's peace, atacking the king's subjects. Yeah that is pretty bad.
Excuse me? Otto Hightower near the bottom? The man maintained a peaceful realm for 20+ in spite of Viserys the Weak and Daemon the wifeslayer existing. Otto just knew what was up lol. Rhaenyra the fool had no business being queen, the war and her six months of rule proved as much. Who doesnt consolidate their power when its obvious that her rivals are forcing her out? Who has three obvious bastards when moon tea is a thing?
No mention of Ser Bronn of the Blackwater? Lord of Highgarden and Master of Coin despite having no experience in borrowing money or in paying back owed debts???
I suspect Hot Pie would have been an amazing Master of Ships because, as he pointed out, you *cannot* give up on the navy. DISCLAIMER: This is a show-only line and not necessarily canon.
Starting my first year of law school and found you about two years ago in undergrad. Reading asoiaf was an escape for me and I can say you really are the best out there
Seriously Quinn your videos are just so great, like not just with how informative they are but they are so entertaining. You’ve been on a streak recently with video quality and it’s been so awesome! Looking forward to the weekly uploads when I’m at uni, will give me something to look forward to after studying lmao
Look, I love Jaime, and he will get better. Like you said, his tenure isn't over. But he's easily the worst. He killed King #1 himself. Outlived King #2. Then got promoted to Lord Commander. Then let King #3 die under his direct supervision (in the show). And in the show he outlives King #4. He can't protect the King for shit. At worst he's the one the King needs protecting from.
hold on, "direct supervision"? Jaime was on the way back from Harrenhall and had 0 control over the currents KG activity when Joffrey died, you might be confusing book and show.
@@GenGaara It's a pretty important detail and one aspect where the show messed up early big time, because book-Jaime genuinely planned on upholding his vow to Cat sending Sansa back...but then (classic cosmic GRRM irony), Sansa is fled before he arrives. The show just has him arrive while Sansa is still there and he does absolutely nothing to help her, they even added dialogue where he's like "she's safest here" or smth. Oh well...
Everyone seems to forget that Jaime is the main cause of the whole war going on in the series, he literally broke his oath by having sex with his sister and placing three bastards on the throne. He definitely is the worst kingsguard, everything Criston Cole does he does tenfold
I like him tbh. He was pretty much just a common-born fella in a world of biological ICBM-wielding incest fetishist and their feudal lord cronies, and he just went around tourneys battering all of their greatest warriors in 1v1 duels, ranging from Daemon to Harwin Strong lol. Grew from a borderline peasant to one of the catalysts of the conflict that ended up destroying the ruling class' strongest weapon of subjugation against the smallfolk (dragons). He was a bit of a cunt, but at the end of the day he kind of told the Mandate of Heaven dragonlords to shove it and inadvertently ended up destroying *the* symbol of Targaryen exceptionalism by pushing them all into a civil war lol.
In defense of Renly, Jofrey Waters was a monster, Tommen was 8 and Stannis was the worst to deal with people, he literaly mutilate the man who save his life, and worst, in the books he want to banned brothels.
that's not how this works. Just saying "I (as younger brother) would make a better king, therefore I press a claim with violence" is utter stupidity that would destabilize the social structure for generations. everyone would start killing their older brothers because they think themselves better lords. Complete chaos. Had Renly called for a great council "hey, this older-brother-only rule is stupid, let's reform our entire political system for the better" - all the power to him. But he obviously didn't do anything of the sorts, he pressed his claim with violence out of pure self-interest. And if he had succeeded he'd have wanted his oldest son to succeed him. Total idiot, shouldn't get defended.
@@7dragons7swords 1) to a degree, yes - but more importantly: 2) that's completely beside the point, I never made any argument whether Stannis would be better or not, that question has nothing to do with what I said - and acting like Stannis not being good for the realm either would somehow diminish the argument why Renly was an idiot is a classic logic fallacy. Trying to counter the critique of x that y is bad too is such a pointless non-argument.
6:54 to be fair to Renly, there is no codified law of inheritance so really whoever can take power is in power just like his big bro, aegon the first, etc.
There is very much codified laws that men like Stannis would follow. Problem is, not many men leading armies are like Stannis (and trials by combat are more entretaining than actual trials)
the entire social structure is based around primogeniture, the simple fact there is some resemblance of peaceful stability over longer periods of time is only due to the fact people are accepting that, and we can assume it's also codified to some degree. You are correct on the fact there is no "constitution" version of these rules (aka a higher accepted authority than the current ruler), which, yes, is *sometimes* contributing to conflicts and wars like the dance, blackfyres etc. - but that doesn't mean the rules generally weren't very real and very important after all. So saying "anything goes"/"whoever can take power is in power" is just madness. There aren't in fact, brutal civil wars everywhere 24/7 every months every year. No, people accept the concept of primogeniture because that's what's keeping things stable. And Renly's stupid claim (with that very naive view of "anything goes, the rules keeping everything stable don't matter") would completely shatter that social structure and lead to any younger brother anywhere challenging their older brothers and everyone starts killing each other. This is obviously not the status quo in Westeros up to now. As a sidenote: feudal inheritance/primogeniture is obviously stupid and makes no sense, but you don't improve a bad system by throwing all rules out the window and everyone starts kiling each other. No, one would need to seek compromise and political reforms through accepted political means. Did Renly call a great council "hey these rules of primogeniture are stupid, let's vote for me as king, nobody needs to die"? Of course he didn't. TLDR: Renly is an idiot. Stupid rules that may or may not be hard coded in a constitution are still rules you need to accept to prevent society from collapsing.
It's hard to decide if it's worse to have someone incompetent or someone working against you. For Hand, for instance, do you prefer someone actively working against you (Otto Hightower) or an incompetent, evil sycophant (Rossart)? I don't know.
same with Littlefinger, he is a genius businessman and had the capability to make the crown richer than ever, just happened to be evil enough to embezzle it all for himself.... is that better or worse than Bronn who never got any education in math and doesn't really understand what a loan is?
It would be the other way around , especially in the shows 😂😂 Cersei would be Queen and Rhaenyra would be Regent But you're right the Realm would get destroyed by them in a week so why not add Alicent as their Hand so the Realm could get destroyed in a day ?
Honestly if your goal is to destroy the realm as soon as possible, imo Otto hightower should be nowhere NEAR the bottom of the list. Remember he oversaw the kingdoms at their absolute peak and was one of the four hands (Baath, Baelon, Otto and Lyonel) who, under Jaehaerys and Viserys, can each claim a good chunk of the credit for that 80-year golden age. It was only due to some VERY unexpected circumstances, that Otto imho did not engineer (no I don't buy the GM conspiracy existing prior to the dance), that he had the opportunity to allow his own selfish ambitions to set the stage for the disaster to come. Had Aemma lived and/or sired a son, he would probably have been one of the most well-rememberd hands in history. Not the best, but nowhere near the worst either. I don't buy that Jaehaerys, even in his old age, having always (wisely) avoided putting nobles from the more powerful houses into important government positions, would have turned to a hightower unless he saw something worthwhile in Otto (in my headcannon Otto had some blood- or protege-connection to Baath and helped with the planning for Reach-focused things like the roseroad - or something like that, he does strike me as such a type) to make him hand at such a critical time. It's just that neither Jaehaerys nor Otto could have ever imagined that Viserys, Daemon, Corlys and Aemma would unintentionally lay a golden-paved road right in front of Otto's nose for him to push his daughter into the royal bed of the sitting monarch, then to sire a male heir to the frigging throne, only then for said grandson to neither be married off/sent away nor made the official heir, and from that point on the rest is pretty much history...
It's also pretty clear that Criston Cole (in the book) only became Lord Commander of the Kingsguard out of nepotism - at least Erryk and Arryk Cargyll were in the Kingsguard longer than him, but he got the nod after Harrold Westerling, despite being 30 years old and only in the Kingsguard for 7 years. Why? He was Rhaenyra's sworn shield, and that ended up backfiring spectacularly.
@@masterplokoon8803 If being the best fighter in the Kingsguard was the guiding qualification for Lord Commander, why wasn't Jaime made Lord Commander after the rebellion?
@@X525Crossfire not sure if it's a guiding qualification but it certainly isn't nepotism. After the rebellion Jaime had a pretty bad reputation for killing the Mad King, making him Lord commander would be stupid. Specially with a legendary knight like Ser Barristan with a long and ilustrious career and legendary feats of arms in the kingsguard. Jaime was a great fighter but his career was nowhere near as ilustrious as Barristan's. Criston Cole was the greatest fighter of his time him becoming Lord commander whether the decision was right or wrong it certainly wasn't nepotism.
@masterplokoon8803 Being the best fighter on the Kingsguard should just be a plus when it comes to whether a knight is named Lord Commander. Ser Lyn Corbray became famous for killing Prince Lewyn Martell at the Trident; would you feel comfortable naming him Lord Commander of your Kingsguard just because he was (probably) it's best fighter?
@@X525CrossfireYou miss the whole point. You said Cole was named Lord Commander because of nepotism which is plainly wrong since he was by far the best fighter in Viserys' kingsguard and was probably the most skilled fighter in Westeros at the time. Then you shared your personal opinion that being the best fighter alive shouldn't be the most important qualification which is fine and you can make a good arguement for seniority pr other things instead but that is simply your opinion and it is certainly not nepotism. After the rebellion the most legendary knights alive were Barristan Selmy and Robert Baratheon. No other man alive had the feats of arms to match them. Can you name one of Viserys' kingsguard that was a match for Cole? And are you saying that Lyn Corbray was a better fighter than Ser Barristan? Lyn Corbray is a great fighter but his career cannot be compared to Ser Barristan. And there is no way he could be Lord Commander while Ser Barristan lived.
Some other candidates: Master of coin: Ambrose Butterwell - served Aegon IV, and got a dragon egg as a gift for allowing the king to get with his daughters; and while we don't know how long he served, if he helped Aegon finance his moronic Dornish campaign, then f*@k him. Master of ships: Tyland Lannister - while much more able in other offices, when the Dance began, oops the Greens had no ships; the Crown was entirely reliant on the Velaryons; they had to write letters to distant potential allies to get a fleet of their own. Hand of the King: Ser Ryam Redwyne - we're only told, not shown, but apparently he was so bad that even in the timeline of the novels he's still remembered as one of the worst; a cautionary tale that a great knight of the Kingsguard doesn't make a great Hand, he served Jaehaerys for less than year, I believe.
I think Bartimos was worse than Petyr because Petyr's action never directly lead to people hating their monach like Bartimos did. Gedmund Peake is possibly worse than Aurane simply for how useless his was in the position, doing effectively nothing while Alyn succeeded. Mysaria is a contender for the worst Master of Whispers since her actions helped lead to Nettles flight and Daemon's death. Tyanna was actually pretty good at her actual job considering she was able to track down both Aerea and Rhaella with ease.
I feel like you could have charted these on a graph with the axes being competence and intention to sabotage. Varys and Littlefinger are extremely competent and are very intentionally sabotaging things. Renly wasn't trying to sabotage anything but was totally incompetent. Pycelle is kind of in the middle of things.
I disagree with Criston being the worst lord commander of the kingsguard. Criston duty is to his king n if his king wants war then he followed the orders. When we look at characters like baristan who is a great knight and loyal kings guard member he still fought for madman who killed innocents and destroyed house targaryen. Its like whats worse choosing to fight for someone that ignites a war and standbye any ruler no matter what they do.
You can argue about Renly Baratheon as a king claimant all you’d like but him as a master of laws is different he essientially gave up his position when he became a claimant and wasn’t acting as a master of laws as a master of laws we don’t hear much of what he does so we can’t really say how he was in that position
Pycelle has always been one of my favorite side characters. It's so clear that everything that makes him awful at his job has to do with his willingness to do whatever he wants for the sake of Tywin, but his actual skill as a Maester is pretty solid. He's shown to be shrewd and organized when he puts his mind to it and a genuinely knowledgeable physician. His problem is that it all plays second fiddle to his desire to play politics on behalf of House Lannister. He would have been pretty good if he only took his Maester vows seriously.
I say Marston Waters is the worst Lord Commander of the Kingsguard as well as one of the worst Hands. He was probably complicit in the Unwin Peake scemes and openly defied his king during the Secret Siege. And let's not forget that he was involved in the Dragonstone Mayhaps Incident, the main reason why the young king rightfully hates him.
It's a little harsh to call Bartimos Celtigar the worst Master of Coin. Wars are expensive so ANY wartime Master of Coin is going to be unpopular - particularly when your opponents ran off with the Royal Treasury.
The guy literally wanted to tax having bastards (pretty ironic considering who he served) but the idea was shot down by Rhaenyra and her council because it was insane, he was unhinged as master of coin. Also Rhaenyra had a lot of wealthy houses backing her (including House Celtigar) that could have provided temporary funds. Instead the guy robbed and extorted poor people.
JUST started watching and wanted to say-LOOK at that tapestry behind that first small council seen in your video with Ned? The tapestry in the background is the Battle of the Trident-Robert and Rhaegar right there. ALL the tapestries in BOTH shows relate to the lore.
Controversial perhaps but surely Ned has to be in consideration for worst hand? Outplayed by everybody, even Cersei. Trusted people who explicitly told him not to trust them. Less than a year in office and his King's assassinated (by people he knew were trying to kill him).
I think Varys is the best master of whispers and might be the most good hearted character in the entire series now that I've realized what his motivation really is. I think he knows about and believes in the Targaryen prophecy. this is why he's hell bent on getting a Targaryen (a competent one) on the throne and has even tried to create "the prince that was promised", first he tries to replace the mad king with Rheagar and now young Griff that has been molded since birth to be the perfect king. So he's trying to save the world. Best small councilor ever.
Funny thing about Rossart is that the realm at large doesn't even know he was Hand. Last publicly known Hand of Aerys is Lord Staunton. Aerys decided on the "burn the capital down" plan pretty late so the time between him ordering that, Staunton refusing, Rossart being made Hand and burning Staunton, and finally Jaime killing Rossart and the Sack is so small that he isn't even in the historical record because Jaime didn't talk about the Wildfire plan and everything about it.
I haven't started the video yet but hands down. Cersei's Small Council of Lickspittle. Which SHE wanted. Cersei - controls everything and listens to no one, ignores actual threats vs perceived ones Master of coin/ lord treasurer - Harys Swyft - as a "hostage" against Kevan since he's his father-in-law - owed money to Tytos Lannister and had to give up his daughter as a hostage until paid back. Sheer brilliance to appoint a man with this poor credit score. His idea to refill the treasury is to raise taxes during a war. Nice His better ideas came from Kevan who is now dead, stabbed by children under Varys. Conveniently Tyrion- sized Grand Maester Pycelle- former Tywin fanboy, most knowledgeable, having served like 6 kings, he gives great advice, which Cersei ignores, thinking him old and weak. Dead now anyway in a Varys flavored assassination Master of laws/ justiciar - Orton Merryweather - Qualifications- none. Wait. She's sleeping with his shady wife who's most likely in a plot against her Master of ships/grand admiral - Aurane Waters - very sea worthy - actual considerations: handsomeness - steals the brand new warships and becomes a pirate. At least he reported on Renly's allegedly near death state first... Master of whisperers - Qyburn- getting information from the "whisperers" by paying them coin. When those people are probably feeding him whatever Varys wants them to know. Can't even figure out the name behind the crow's eye banners. Not to mention the whole torture-necromancy-human experiment government funded project he has going on in the basement
the most hilarious part is her complaining in her mind about their stupidity, these "why am I surrounded by idiots"-thoughts. Because you CHOSE them for not thinking for themselves, that's why.
@@akg517another one: getting upset about how Tommen agrees with everything and doesn't show strength. Also: getting upset about Tommen disagreeing with her later. These chapters really are a goldmine
@blaubeer8039 It's only after I reread the books a few times that it dawned on me that Margaery is the Queen - like with authority. Many people from Cersei's chapters drop the title altogether or call her "the little queen" Margaery was well within her right to command Cersei to tell her of Loras but I was shocked at the audacity
@blaubeer8039 Cersi also puts the cart before the horse a lot 1. Aurane: Loras is on death's door Cersei: That's fantastic! Tell me about it twice so I can go make Margaery cry myself! *doesn't call anyone to clarify 2. Cersei: Are we sure Davos is dead? Them: Yea. We heard there's an unrecognizable severed head with and onion in it's mouth and a shortened hand Cersei: Seems legit. Send him his son. Wyman: *ramps up plotting rebellion in the North 3. Cersei: I'm free of Margaery now that she's been arrested on false charges of in*est, adultery and fornication Cersei: *gets arrested on true charges of in*est, adultery, fornication, regicide and deicide by a militia SHE greenlit 4. Cersei: Littlefinger had a talent for finding gold. We should bring him back. Send those tapestries he wanted *doesn't even inspect said tapestries Littlefinger: *skips town to marry a rich widow after bankrupting the realm 5. Small council: there's talk of dragons Cersei: haha. Those don't exist, silly 6. Envoy from bank of Braavos: Pay us our money Cersei: No Envoy: Alright. To Stannis then... 7. Cersei: Jamie will come fight for my honour or die with me! He loves me too much. He's probably racing ahead of his men to see me Jamie: *reads letter. Burn that. I saw nothing 8. Cersei: *assumes the high Sparrow will free Osney after his confession so he can go up to the wall and kill Jon High Sparrow: Osney shall taste mercy in the afterlife. Now, about this Queen he slept with... 9. Cersei: Rosby's dead? Fantastic! I want all his assets transferred to the crown Them: He has a ward... Cersei: who cares? Do it! * doesn't check who the ward is, the strength of the claim or whether Gyles had assets or debt
Jaimie literally killed the king, the reason doesn’t matter in the context the office of lord commander of the kings guard. SPOILERS FOR THE FUTURE OF HOTD I would also say that Mysario is kind of tie with Tyanna because she learns that Deamon is cheating on Rhaenera with Nettles then waits to tell her until after Hugh and Ulf switch sides to the greens and lies about Nettles being a witch causing her to order the execution of Nettles and Adam which backfires horribly as Nettle flees and vanishes from the history books and Deamon and Adam fly away and get themselves killed.
Criston Cole was a douche and politically motivated yes, but he died fighting for his king. I agree with Jaime 100% in killing Aerys psycho ass, but keep it real; the Kingsguard job is to protect the king. Jaime literally killed his king. Automatically the worst Kingsguard and Lord Commander of the Kingsguard in history. That's quite literally his only job. He also is partly responsible for the entire start of the War of the Five Kings for pushing Bran out the window.
Another interesting Hand to look at was Grand Maester Munkun, who quite notably in 135 AC was THE defacto ruler of Westeros and held the most power EVER in Westeros history. Like, virtually the entire Regency Council had left office or died, the Small Council at that time solely consisted of him and Robert Rowan, who was a shattered shell after his torture in the dungeons. Aegon III was a sullen shell while the rest of the Targaryen family was distracted by the collapse of the Rogare Bank and Secret Siege. And as Grand Maester, he had control directly over the raven messaging network and thus complete control over the flow of information. So for that year, he had absolute control over the entire realm. So... what did he do with all that power? Perhaps, secretly orchestrate the poisoning of the remaining dragon eggs while everyone else was busy with the Secret Siege?
Regent Cersei: "Imma speed run this." [Quickly gulps down goblet of wine] [Wipes her mouth] Regent Cersei: "Aight. Let's do this!" Cersei is so terrible at ruling that it dooms the excellent Kevan Lannister. Ser Kevan is made Regent for King Tommen and is actually quite competent at the job. He's undoing the administrative and political idiocy of Regent Cersei. Kevan was doing such a great job of it that Varys and his little kids kill him. They wanted Cersei to keep on doing what she was doing destroying herself and dooming Tommen, and Kevan was disrupting that.
As I was watching the show all I could think is, alicent realises she's arming those who would stand against a woman(similarly to how cersei armed the faith), that scene with them all ignoring her was brilliant because ut showed the difference, the blacks have people who are old and set in ways but stand behind there queen. No one stands behind alicent,
At first I was thinking Ryam Redwyne for worst Hand but you mentioning Rossart reminded me of two important details. 1-Ryam was the unlucky guy who had to follow Barth and as real history tells us, highly intelligent administrators tend to build complex bureaucracies that are second nature to them but drive their successors to madness. 2-for all his faults Ryam never tried to facilitate the possible destruction of the city he was in charge of. So yeah Rossart wins.
The only reason Bron isn't the worst master of coin is because we don't get to see how horrible he does. But on paper, you can't pick a worse person for the position
I dont get how Varys isnt automatically the worst master of whispers by virtue of the fact that he is actively working towards overthrowing the rulers he serves. Yes he is good at the things that a master of whispers does, but he is actively using all those skills against the regime that he supposedly works for. Giving him a pass is like giving Jaime a pass for killing his king and saying hes a good Kingsguard because in theory he posesses the skills of a good Kingsguard.
If we include people that served under rulers that didn’t sit the iron throne (yet) I think Groleo is a great contender for the worst master of ships (or lord admiral). He just doesn’t have any ships
Also. Pycelle let the hand of the king die. Pycelle not only enable the death of jon arryn, but is at the nexus for Robert riding north, igniting the stark - lannister feud further. Unless a maester caused the dance, pycelle might take the price(pricelle, if you will)
Hand : Uwin Peake (trying to overthrow the king while poisoning the queen put him higher than Rossart but not by much) Law : don't know but maybe Renly Coin : Littlefinger Whisper : Varys Lord Commander : probably Criston but I like to think Jaime would be considered objectively worst because no one else killed the king they were sworn to Ship : Aurane Waters Grand Maester : Pycelle. The funny thing is how many of them are from Robert's small council lol
+Quinn the GM Someone please you need to make a short synopsis of a GOT fanfic that has some king ruling with this small council and see how it all collapses xD
Renly understood that right by conquest is more legitimate than right by inheritance, the baratheon claim itself depends on that fact. Stannis cannot claim that inheritance trumps conquest, or he would have to rescind his right to the throne. Renly was not entitled to the throne simply because he did not have the power to take it in the end. I'd actually argue that it's Stannis' fault because without Stannis, Renly has a pretty good chance of taking the throne and it would have been a much more stable and peaceful realm than under the lannisters.
Full disclosure I haven't watched the video, however, GET MY BOY PYCELLE OUT OF THAT THUMBNAIL. Dude was by far the smartest person on Cersei's council
While he’s definetly not as bad as Rossart, I think Ambrose Butterwell deserves a dishonorable mention for his bad job at failing to stop the Blackfyre Rebellion.
To this day I have no idea why people can’t come up with what a master of laws could do. Proposing laws, revising laws, overseeing the carrying out of said laws, seems clear
Logic indicates it would be an Attorney General/Minister of Justice position but as Quinn points out, books don't really explain what the position is supposed to do at all.
Lucille never served the crown, he served Tywin. Littlefinger actively spent his entire stint on the Small Council plotting and working against the crown. And Qyburn is the worst because everything he passed on to Cersei involved Oldtown. Nothing else was more accurate than rumors in the streets.
The Council at the end of Season 8 has to be historically terrible. Bronn - a self serving thief, no family connections. Davos - can't even read, zero family connections. Brienne - hopelessly naive, no political experience, barely any connections. Sam Tarly - competent, no experience. Then Bran as king is literally an empty chair - he does nothing.
You're too hard on Renly. He honestly didn't do anything wrong. As Master of Laws there were no significant unpunished laws broken and when one came to his attention, that of succession, he formed a coalition to subdue unrest under peaceful means. Too much is held against Renly for being murdered before he had to stand for his values, and far too little credit for his time in office.
For me Otto Hightower is the worst Hand of the King, because, for a man to criticise other for their lack of foresight it was his own lack, coupled with sheer spite, that coursed the Dance of the Dragons. If he hadn’t pushed for Rhaenyra to replace Daemon as hair, a decision that was basically a “fuck you” to the Rogue Prince, his grandson would have been the uncontested hair to the Iron Throne.
If we ever get Fire & Blood part 2 then Aegon IV's revolving door of council members will probably become contenders for the worst. A4 himself probably ranked them by who had the hottest daughter.
Currently King's Landing has: -The worst small council -The worst King's guard -A child king -No Tywin Lannister to save their asses Yeah,Aegon will fucking dogwalk conquering the crownlands lmao
only issue I saw with this video is saying otto was the cause of the dance. the general consensus is that it was viserys. could of married lena and avoided the conflict, but picked lust. then goes against every law in westeros by naming his daughter heir. she is also to blame for having illegitimate kids and not a single true born one (until daemon). otto saw an opportunity and took it. viserys was too weak as daemon would warn him about him but never listened
Cercei level of dumbness and evilness in books is almost cartoon - like. He created a council with fucking Harys Swift as hand to annoy his uncle and made Piecelle the voice of reason with her choices.
I always find it funny, Cersei was gonna self destruct over five years but GRRM knew: ‘no she’s gonna do it in less than a year’
I also love that he has Littlefinger directly comment on that in Feast
I love me some Cersei speed running her own doom chapters. So good.
@@QuinnTheGM Love how Jaime thinks about naming him Hand
"You would not believe half of what is happening in King's Landing, sweetling. Cersei stumbles from one idiocy to the next, helped along by her council of the deaf, the dim, and the blind. I always anticipated that she would beggar the realm and destroy herself, but I never expected she would do it quite so fast. It is quite vexing. I had hoped to have four or five quiet years to plant some seeds and allow some fruits to ripen, but now..."
Littlefinger to Sansa. They really should have had that exchange in the series 😂
Yeah, i hate it how they made her the main baddie in the tv show.
Hot Pie never served as master of ships only as far as WE know.
More qualified to be master of coin than Bronn anyway.
Hot Pie is gonna serve as Arya’s Master of Ship 😏
You cant say Hot Pie would be the worst master of ships cause he would be awesome at it. Just think about how much harder the Oarsmen would work knowing they will get delicious bakery stuff every day
Hot Pie is such a great master of whispers that no one even knows it's him.
@@maylabrown4584 Arya will surely become Queen. She has the best story after all
Hot Pie is such a great master of whispers that no one even knows it's him.
Not even himself💀
Hot Pie is secretely Varys confirmed
This is my head canon now. Thanks!
What is funny about Cersei's concil is, Pycelle being the lickspittle of the previous councils being the sole guy who gives true advice to her while the others just lick her boots.
Pycelle in Feast has every right idea compared to Cersei. But in Storm he is roasted by Tywin and Tyrion.
@@CheeseCrumbs00in Storm he was the dumbest among a great Great Small Council with Smart people
Then Tywin dies,Tyrion And later varys fuck off to Essos and Littlefinger went to the vale
Now is the smartest among the dumbest Council ever
@@alphagamer9505truly, the greatest midwit in Westerosi history
"while the others just lick her boots."
Or her 😺
Also, aurane waters used to serve under stannis. Cersei hired a guy who was her enemy just recently and didn't have a ready to go fleet because she thought he was hot. It's so funny
Cmon we've all been there, you're into a guy and he wants some boats so you empower a religious militia but then he steals your ships because he was a fuckboy 😞
@@FishLunchy😂😂😂
I think it’s good characterization how Stannis doesn’t establish a Kingsguard and Renly doesn’t establish a small council or hand.
Mace Tyrell was Renly's hand.
@@billcipherproductions1789 explains why he died so fast lol
Why that doesnt Make sense
You need a war Council at least
Mace was Renly Hand and he had a King's guard
Brianne of tarth was named kings guard after beatimg ser loras
@@alphagamer9505 It makes sense in the sense that Stannis and Renley are two sides of the same coin - Stannis, being the dutiful brother, assembled a council and appointed a hand and did all the things expected in statebuilding, while Renley sat back and hosted tourneys to appoint his kingsguard - working on the more flashy elements of kingskhip
It‘s the small council from the last episode of GoT S8. Nothing can beat that.
its not canon, it did not happen, it s ust some fanfic
Lord Bronn of Highgarden, Master of Coin made me want to smash my tv
@@HK-gm8pe I think that's an insult to fanfic.
@@HK-gm8pe hey no need to insult the work of the writers, some fanfics are actually good
Nah, Brienne is a fine Lady-Commander, even if she's not the the best, but certainly not th worst. And there were certainly worse Hands than Tyrion.
Personally I think Grand Maester Munkun is the worst Grand Maester due to his support of Unwin Peake and his terrible ideas and things he did, and he was a participant in leading and acting as Unwin's middleman during The Secret Siege to the point it's amazing he wasn't fired afterwards.
@@samminden1058 Why wasn’t he?
@@BatFlash52 everyone forgets Munkun
@@BatFlash52 the Grand Maester is chosen by the Conclave of Archmaesters that rule the Citadel, not the monarch. The monarch can only bar the Grand Maester from attending council meetings, but can't actually otherwise fire whomever holds that title.
@@DominionSorcerer Thank you 😃
@@DominionSorcerer I mean, Maegor straight up executed the Grand Maester (twice, I think) so that seemed to work.
And even in the main series there was talk of replacing Pycelle with a Tyrell so I would say that dismissing the Grand Maester is probably possible.
Aurane Waters..."what he does is build a new massive war fleet...good, thumbs up, very mindful..."
...very demure...
An Ork Kommando is proppa proud of him
Worst Lord-Commander of the Kingsguard has to be Ser Marston Waters. He literally besieged Aegon III in his own castle, basically declared himself Hand of the King, allowed the previous and competent Hand (Thaddeus Rowan) be tortured to madness, appeared to genuinely believe Thaddeus Rowan was guilty (despite the confession being delivered under torture and duress), had a change of heart after an actual child out-logic'd him, and then died after turning on the other traitors at the last minute. There's also an implication that Marston may have been a stooge for Unwin Peake the entire time. Say what you will about Criston Cole but at least he served Aegon II somewhat competently (going by book-canon, not show-canon) and never betrayed him. Marston Waters was just Criston Cole but shittier.
Yeah, he probably takes it.
I agree. I think show is going to muddy conversations forever though. Even though if you think about it Rhae Rhae basically raped him lol.
And wasn’t Marston also of Aegon II’s Kingsguard that held back Aegon III as he watched Rhaenyra die? I know that’s something he didn’t have much control over but doesn’t help his cause
Every council that exists without the privilege to bask in the glow of the living legend that is Iron Rod is the worst council.
You said..."rod." 🤣
Him and his darkling schemes
Unwin had complete control of everything and still failed.
But let’s be real, the worst Hand of the King is Orton Merryweather. Rossart was a loyal and leal servant, while Orton abandoned Cersei like a craven the moment she was arrested and fled back to his home. That is deserving of the worst. Well, that or a failed Hand like Jon Connington…
Connigton got a redo as Aegon's hand though and he's done pretty good so far.
Good hands serve the realm. Otto is a great politician but he doesnt serve the realm. Rossart is loyal but he is enabling a Massacre. Orton NOT rescuing Cersei and calling for Kevan instead is far better than anything Rossart or Crispelt etc. did.
Orton realises he is not suited for the position and so he gives it to Kevan who stabilizes the realm. Getting Cersei out would be Loyal but it would also be terrible for the realm.
The criteria for good small council members is not wit or loyalty but how they improve the realm.
@@ingen_nate_kenny6588 Rossart encouraged the king into entering a murder suicide pact, he is probably the worst.
@@niemandzuhause4897 on one hand that is true, but it's also quite awkward to give Orton any credit for "serving the realm" at that moment considering how much he was crawling up Cersei's ass the months prior lol
as Ned said to Jaime in that show-only scene S1ep3: "you served him well....while serving was safe" (....and stabbed him in the back him when that was convenient).
Merrywheather did jack shit to improve the realm while Cersei was in power - because destroying the realm with stupidity was benefitting him then.
@@blaubeer8039 I am not saying Orton does anything positive. Just that other hands basically destroyed the realm and he held back a little
Criston Cole for all the hate he gets was a pretty decent wartime hand of the king for Aegon II. He won the crownlands for Aegon, his plan at Rook's Rest was good, and if Aemond had listened to him instead of waging a one man terror campaign in the Riverlands, things would have probably turned out fine for the greens. His military decisions were all correct.
The Hand is supposed to govern the Realm, not lead armies.
@@petebondurant58 during wartime the hand of the king often leads armies and that is why I said "war time hand".
Being Hand of the King is more than just being a battlefield commander though. Cole was good at commanding armies. He was absolutely terrible at realm politics / advising the king. Being good at a different job isn't an excuse for being bad at the job in question... that said, Westeros doesn't have a specific "Master of Wars" or commander-in-chief title per se, so it is at least arguable that he was doing his duty as Hand by leading troops in lieu of the King, and I think the "worst" decisions Cole made were actually leading UP to him being named Hand, while after that point he made better/more practical decisions (because his biggest moral issues relate to the start of the Dance, after that he was reacting to consequences)
@@JimRFF I agree but during wartime he was a pretty good hand, in peacetime he would be terrible. He was a good hand of the king to Aegon II in specific, he was bad kingsguard to Viserys I and Rhaenyra.
I agree with you but you will get hate for this because the default opinion of Criston is "bad misogynist man" and therefore everything he does is apparently bad. That's how many fans see it
In Cersei's defense, Aurane Waters was really hot. Obviously makes him the guy best suited for that position.
This is a bit of a side point, but on the topic of Pycelle- George RR Martin has said there's more to be revealed about Pycelle's devotion to Tywin and that relationship as a whole; I'd say this reveal is one of my most anticipated plot points in Winds. Great video.
This probably ties in with why Varys killed Pycelle. I mean Kevan obviously needed to die, but there had to have been a greater motive for killing the old grand maester.
I wonder how he would go about it since both are dead
@miobiuscrimson2828 Someone like Stannis or littlefinger could perhaps fill that role, having served on the small council with him. Also Sam could meet a friend of Pycelle in the citadel.
Tycelle / Pywin confirmed
Secret lovers type of secret! 😂 Tywin didn’t need whores, he had te Maester Pimp of them all as his bitch!
Ser Otto Hightower is nowhere near the bottom, actually he's closer to the top, he was hand for 20 years, the vault was filled, and realm was great, no thanks to Viserys who just wanted to feast and praise his daughter
Ser Criston Cole was also pretty good war time hand, he was fairly decent leading the king's armies
Quinn has this team black bias, obviously he's gonna choose 'em
When he said Otto I was hella confused. Viserys had a peaceful reign because of Otto. You can’t solely place the blame for dance on him. Although he is semi responsible they’re a lot of other hands who are more self serving
@@thatguywholeavestheparty6147 Otto was a much better ruler than Jon Arryn and Ned Stark, they were loyal yes, but they were also politically naive, and in administration, Otto was much better, as I said he left the royal vault filled, and he was also aware of Rhaenyra's scandals the entire time
@@Al4___ I don't know that Jon Arryn was politically naive. He was dealt the position of having to knit the nation back together between previously warring factions. There were bound to be compromises that had to be made. Given about of 15 years of mostly peace and prosperity, with Robert mostly being absent, he had to have done something right. Also, his main failure was more personal than professional. His downfall was trusting his own wife, not someone he was accusing of treason as was the case with Ned.
@@carlrood4457 he was manipulated by Littlefinger to oppose the Lannisters
In the books, Cersei's Master of Ships steals the entire fleet and sails away with it.
Now that’s funny
I mean, that definitely demonstrates naval expertise.
And she gave him the position because she thought he was hot.
@@nomisunrider6472 Aurane is good at naval stuff, he just isn't loyal to the crown or Cersei at all. Being master of ships was just an opportunity to build a really good pirate fleet on the crowns dime. Hell, he might end up becoming King of the Stepstones by the end of the series
I mean, it’s pretty hard to beat Cersei’s council here. She’s got Pycelle, but other than that?
Generally when talking about the "worst" advisor, there's one of two possibilities: either they are "incompetent & trustworthy" or "competent & untrustworthy" ... Mace the Ace is a great example of the first option, where you know he's going to be loyal and say what he's actually thinking but you also shouldn't listen to him or actually take his advice... then there's characters like Varys and Littlefinger in the second category who are dangerous because they are good at what they do but they are also deeply self-interested and their advice, while good, may ultimately undermine you.
And then there's Unwin Peake, who is both incompetent and untrustworthy... and that weirdly makes him "feel" less bad/evil, he's basically a cartoon slapstick villain in a world of serial killers, he just seems harmless even as he's actively trying to start (or maybe 'continue' is a better word) a civil war xD
Jaime is the worst. Killed a king, played the game of thrones with his dad, got captured, failed to protect Robert, was imprisoned for the entirety of Joffrey’s reign, let Joffrey die under his watch, and now continues to play the game of thrones in the Riverlands. And also just went missing and abandoned his duty again under tommen
Plus he literally cucked the king and wanted to put his own bastards on the throne.
In dairness, in the books he was never sworn to Joffrey's kingsguard as he wasn't in kingslanding until after he died.
@@georgecrowcroft9260 he was the lord commander but yes he wasn't there when Joffrey died. But the reason he was not there is because he fled the capital and joined Tywin's army in slaughtering and pillaging king Robert's subjects in the Riverlands. Abandoning his post, atacking an important lord (Ned Stark) without the king's permition, breaking the king's peace, atacking the king's subjects. Yeah that is pretty bad.
Aegon the 4th had a very dependable council with people who definitely didn’t have their own self interests at mind
Excuse me? Otto Hightower near the bottom? The man maintained a peaceful realm for 20+ in spite of Viserys the Weak and Daemon the wifeslayer existing. Otto just knew what was up lol.
Rhaenyra the fool had no business being queen, the war and her six months of rule proved as much. Who doesnt consolidate their power when its obvious that her rivals are forcing her out? Who has three obvious bastards when moon tea is a thing?
10:09 very demure
When he said very the first time I had a feeling he was going in that direction. Love a game of thrones demure crossover
No mention of Ser Bronn of the Blackwater? Lord of Highgarden and Master of Coin despite having no experience in borrowing money or in paying back owed debts???
😂 Ser Bronn of House Pay me back Lannister lol
We don't talk about that here
@@jacobseed2123 Yep. Game of Thrones is not canon in these parts.
Let's be honest, Darkstar wouldn't even need a small council. He could handle running a kingdom without any help.
Oui😤
Renly as masters of laws was quite funny.
I suspect Hot Pie would have been an amazing Master of Ships because, as he pointed out, you *cannot* give up on the navy.
DISCLAIMER: This is a show-only line and not necessarily canon.
Starting my first year of law school and found you about two years ago in undergrad. Reading asoiaf was an escape for me and I can say you really are the best out there
Seriously Quinn your videos are just so great, like not just with how informative they are but they are so entertaining. You’ve been on a streak recently with video quality and it’s been so awesome! Looking forward to the weekly uploads when I’m at uni, will give me something to look forward to after studying lmao
The council for aegon 3 after the dance the "council of regents" with that peake guy or pyke guy is THE WORST 😂
Look, I love Jaime, and he will get better. Like you said, his tenure isn't over. But he's easily the worst.
He killed King #1 himself. Outlived King #2. Then got promoted to Lord Commander. Then let King #3 die under his direct supervision (in the show). And in the show he outlives King #4.
He can't protect the King for shit. At worst he's the one the King needs protecting from.
hold on, "direct supervision"? Jaime was on the way back from Harrenhall and had 0 control over the currents KG activity when Joffrey died, you might be confusing book and show.
@blaubeer8039 I probably am, I was trying to recall the timings, and I remembered the shot in the show of Jaime cradling Joffrey in his arms
@@GenGaara It's a pretty important detail and one aspect where the show messed up early big time, because book-Jaime genuinely planned on upholding his vow to Cat sending Sansa back...but then (classic cosmic GRRM irony), Sansa is fled before he arrives.
The show just has him arrive while Sansa is still there and he does absolutely nothing to help her, they even added dialogue where he's like "she's safest here" or smth. Oh well...
Everyone seems to forget that Jaime is the main cause of the whole war going on in the series, he literally broke his oath by having sex with his sister and placing three bastards on the throne. He definitely is the worst kingsguard, everything Criston Cole does he does tenfold
Ser Marston Waters is pretty bad with the Secret Siege even if he changes his mind at the end for a bit before he dies.
Crispy Cole mightve been one of my favorite characters coming out of house of the dragon season 2.
I subscribed. I expect my position as Master of Engagement Analytics any day now
"I dont really like this Criston Cole fella" said by almost everybody ever
I like him tbh.
He was pretty much just a common-born fella in a world of biological ICBM-wielding incest fetishist and their feudal lord cronies, and he just went around tourneys battering all of their greatest warriors in 1v1 duels, ranging from Daemon to Harwin Strong lol.
Grew from a borderline peasant to one of the catalysts of the conflict that ended up destroying the ruling class' strongest weapon of subjugation against the smallfolk (dragons).
He was a bit of a cunt, but at the end of the day he kind of told the Mandate of Heaven dragonlords to shove it and inadvertently ended up destroying *the* symbol of Targaryen exceptionalism by pushing them all into a civil war lol.
In defense of Renly,
Jofrey Waters was a monster, Tommen was 8 and
Stannis was the worst to deal with people, he literaly mutilate the man who save his life,
and worst, in the books he want to banned brothels.
that's not how this works.
Just saying "I (as younger brother) would make a better king, therefore I press a claim with violence" is utter stupidity that would destabilize the social structure for generations. everyone would start killing their older brothers because they think themselves better lords. Complete chaos.
Had Renly called for a great council "hey, this older-brother-only rule is stupid, let's reform our entire political system for the better" - all the power to him. But he obviously didn't do anything of the sorts, he pressed his claim with violence out of pure self-interest. And if he had succeeded he'd have wanted his oldest son to succeed him.
Total idiot, shouldn't get defended.
@@blaubeer8039 why he would trade a certain victory for a great council?
Renly only lost the war because of dark magic cheat
@@7dragons7swords and if he had won the entire social structure would've descended into chaos. Did you even read my comment?
@@blaubeer8039 you think with Stannis as king, would be peaceful?
@@7dragons7swords 1) to a degree, yes - but more importantly:
2) that's completely beside the point, I never made any argument whether Stannis would be better or not, that question has nothing to do with what I said - and acting like Stannis not being good for the realm either would somehow diminish the argument why Renly was an idiot is a classic logic fallacy. Trying to counter the critique of x that y is bad too is such a pointless non-argument.
The more I learn about this Criston Cole guy, the more I don't like him.
I mean, this guy's a real jerk.
lol he seems a better person than half the people in the books n the show
6:54 to be fair to Renly, there is no codified law of inheritance so really whoever can take power is in power just like his big bro, aegon the first, etc.
There is very much codified laws that men like Stannis would follow. Problem is, not many men leading armies are like Stannis (and trials by combat are more entretaining than actual trials)
the entire social structure is based around primogeniture, the simple fact there is some resemblance of peaceful stability over longer periods of time is only due to the fact people are accepting that, and we can assume it's also codified to some degree.
You are correct on the fact there is no "constitution" version of these rules (aka a higher accepted authority than the current ruler), which, yes, is *sometimes* contributing to conflicts and wars like the dance, blackfyres etc. - but that doesn't mean the rules generally weren't very real and very important after all.
So saying "anything goes"/"whoever can take power is in power" is just madness. There aren't in fact, brutal civil wars everywhere 24/7 every months every year. No, people accept the concept of primogeniture because that's what's keeping things stable.
And Renly's stupid claim (with that very naive view of "anything goes, the rules keeping everything stable don't matter") would completely shatter that social structure and lead to any younger brother anywhere challenging their older brothers and everyone starts killing each other. This is obviously not the status quo in Westeros up to now.
As a sidenote: feudal inheritance/primogeniture is obviously stupid and makes no sense, but you don't improve a bad system by throwing all rules out the window and everyone starts kiling each other. No, one would need to seek compromise and political reforms through accepted political means.
Did Renly call a great council "hey these rules of primogeniture are stupid, let's vote for me as king, nobody needs to die"? Of course he didn't.
TLDR: Renly is an idiot. Stupid rules that may or may not be hard coded in a constitution are still rules you need to accept to prevent society from collapsing.
For hand of the king I heard Aerys and for a second I thought Quinn had suffered a major mental break and was gonna put Jon Connington there
It's hard to decide if it's worse to have someone incompetent or someone working against you. For Hand, for instance, do you prefer someone actively working against you (Otto Hightower) or an incompetent, evil sycophant (Rossart)? I don't know.
same with Littlefinger, he is a genius businessman and had the capability to make the crown richer than ever, just happened to be evil enough to embezzle it all for himself.... is that better or worse than Bronn who never got any education in math and doesn't really understand what a loan is?
Rhaenyra as Quenn and Cersei as Quenn regent,
and the realm would be destroyed in a week
It would be the other way around , especially in the shows 😂😂 Cersei would be Queen and Rhaenyra would be Regent
But you're right the Realm would get destroyed by them in a week so why not add Alicent as their Hand so the Realm could get destroyed in a day ?
Honestly if your goal is to destroy the realm as soon as possible, imo Otto hightower should be nowhere NEAR the bottom of the list. Remember he oversaw the kingdoms at their absolute peak and was one of the four hands (Baath, Baelon, Otto and Lyonel) who, under Jaehaerys and Viserys, can each claim a good chunk of the credit for that 80-year golden age.
It was only due to some VERY unexpected circumstances, that Otto imho did not engineer (no I don't buy the GM conspiracy existing prior to the dance), that he had the opportunity to allow his own selfish ambitions to set the stage for the disaster to come. Had Aemma lived and/or sired a son, he would probably have been one of the most well-rememberd hands in history. Not the best, but nowhere near the worst either. I don't buy that Jaehaerys, even in his old age, having always (wisely) avoided putting nobles from the more powerful houses into important government positions, would have turned to a hightower unless he saw something worthwhile in Otto (in my headcannon Otto had some blood- or protege-connection to Baath and helped with the planning for Reach-focused things like the roseroad - or something like that, he does strike me as such a type) to make him hand at such a critical time.
It's just that neither Jaehaerys nor Otto could have ever imagined that Viserys, Daemon, Corlys and Aemma would unintentionally lay a golden-paved road right in front of Otto's nose for him to push his daughter into the royal bed of the sitting monarch, then to sire a male heir to the frigging throne, only then for said grandson to neither be married off/sent away nor made the official heir, and from that point on the rest is pretty much history...
It's also pretty clear that Criston Cole (in the book) only became Lord Commander of the Kingsguard out of nepotism - at least Erryk and Arryk Cargyll were in the Kingsguard longer than him, but he got the nod after Harrold Westerling, despite being 30 years old and only in the Kingsguard for 7 years. Why? He was Rhaenyra's sworn shield, and that ended up backfiring spectacularly.
He was by far the best fighter in the kingsguard, that is not nepotism.
@@masterplokoon8803 If being the best fighter in the Kingsguard was the guiding qualification for Lord Commander, why wasn't Jaime made Lord Commander after the rebellion?
@@X525Crossfire not sure if it's a guiding qualification but it certainly isn't nepotism. After the rebellion Jaime had a pretty bad reputation for killing the Mad King, making him Lord commander would be stupid. Specially with a legendary knight like Ser Barristan with a long and ilustrious career and legendary feats of arms in the kingsguard. Jaime was a great fighter but his career was nowhere near as ilustrious as Barristan's.
Criston Cole was the greatest fighter of his time him becoming Lord commander whether the decision was right or wrong it certainly wasn't nepotism.
@masterplokoon8803 Being the best fighter on the Kingsguard should just be a plus when it comes to whether a knight is named Lord Commander. Ser Lyn Corbray became famous for killing Prince Lewyn Martell at the Trident; would you feel comfortable naming him Lord Commander of your Kingsguard just because he was (probably) it's best fighter?
@@X525CrossfireYou miss the whole point. You said Cole was named Lord Commander because of nepotism which is plainly wrong since he was by far the best fighter in Viserys' kingsguard and was probably the most skilled fighter in Westeros at the time.
Then you shared your personal opinion that being the best fighter alive shouldn't be the most important qualification which is fine and you can make a good arguement for seniority pr other things instead but that is simply your opinion and it is certainly not nepotism.
After the rebellion the most legendary knights alive were Barristan Selmy and Robert Baratheon. No other man alive had the feats of arms to match them. Can you name one of Viserys' kingsguard that was a match for Cole? And are you saying that Lyn Corbray was a better fighter than Ser Barristan? Lyn Corbray is a great fighter but his career cannot be compared to Ser Barristan. And there is no way he could be Lord Commander while Ser Barristan lived.
Some other candidates:
Master of coin: Ambrose Butterwell - served Aegon IV, and got a dragon egg as a gift for allowing the king to get with his daughters; and while we don't know how long he served, if he helped Aegon finance his moronic Dornish campaign, then f*@k him.
Master of ships: Tyland Lannister - while much more able in other offices, when the Dance began, oops the Greens had no ships; the Crown was entirely reliant on the Velaryons; they had to write letters to distant potential allies to get a fleet of their own.
Hand of the King: Ser Ryam Redwyne - we're only told, not shown, but apparently he was so bad that even in the timeline of the novels he's still remembered as one of the worst; a cautionary tale that a great knight of the Kingsguard doesn't make a great Hand, he served Jaehaerys for less than year, I believe.
Brother was named UNwin, the game was rigged from the start
I think Bartimos was worse than Petyr because Petyr's action never directly lead to people hating their monach like Bartimos did. Gedmund Peake is possibly worse than Aurane simply for how useless his was in the position, doing effectively nothing while Alyn succeeded. Mysaria is a contender for the worst Master of Whispers since her actions helped lead to Nettles flight and Daemon's death. Tyanna was actually pretty good at her actual job considering she was able to track down both Aerea and Rhaella with ease.
I feel like you could have charted these on a graph with the axes being competence and intention to sabotage. Varys and Littlefinger are extremely competent and are very intentionally sabotaging things. Renly wasn't trying to sabotage anything but was totally incompetent. Pycelle is kind of in the middle of things.
I disagree with Criston being the worst lord commander of the kingsguard. Criston duty is to his king n if his king wants war then he followed the orders. When we look at characters like baristan who is a great knight and loyal kings guard member he still fought for madman who killed innocents and destroyed house targaryen. Its like whats worse choosing to fight for someone that ignites a war and standbye any ruler no matter what they do.
You can argue about Renly Baratheon as a king claimant all you’d like but him as a master of laws is different he essientially gave up his position when he became a claimant and wasn’t acting as a master of laws as a master of laws we don’t hear much of what he does so we can’t really say how he was in that position
Pycelle has always been one of my favorite side characters. It's so clear that everything that makes him awful at his job has to do with his willingness to do whatever he wants for the sake of Tywin, but his actual skill as a Maester is pretty solid. He's shown to be shrewd and organized when he puts his mind to it and a genuinely knowledgeable physician. His problem is that it all plays second fiddle to his desire to play politics on behalf of House Lannister. He would have been pretty good if he only took his Maester vows seriously.
I say Marston Waters is the worst Lord Commander of the Kingsguard as well as one of the worst Hands. He was probably complicit in the Unwin Peake scemes and openly defied his king during the Secret Siege. And let's not forget that he was involved in the Dragonstone Mayhaps Incident, the main reason why the young king rightfully hates him.
He helped his King come back from basically nothing to take his throne again. He is one of the best kingsguard
It's a little harsh to call Bartimos Celtigar the worst Master of Coin. Wars are expensive so ANY wartime Master of Coin is going to be unpopular - particularly when your opponents ran off with the Royal Treasury.
The guy literally wanted to tax having bastards (pretty ironic considering who he served) but the idea was shot down by Rhaenyra and her council because it was insane, he was unhinged as master of coin. Also Rhaenyra had a lot of wealthy houses backing her (including House Celtigar) that could have provided temporary funds. Instead the guy robbed and extorted poor people.
This video was so fun to watch!!! I forgot how awful Cersei's counsel was in the fourth book 😂😂😂
The story about Aurane Waters will always kill me😅😅😅😅
JUST started watching and wanted to say-LOOK at that tapestry behind that first small council seen in your video with Ned? The tapestry in the background is the Battle of the Trident-Robert and Rhaegar right there. ALL the tapestries in BOTH shows relate to the lore.
Controversial perhaps but surely Ned has to be in consideration for worst hand? Outplayed by everybody, even Cersei. Trusted people who explicitly told him not to trust them. Less than a year in office and his King's assassinated (by people he knew were trying to kill him).
He was definitely in contention but trying to burn down the entire capital is on a different level
I think Varys is the best master of whispers and might be the most good hearted character in the entire series now that I've realized what his motivation really is. I think he knows about and believes in the Targaryen prophecy. this is why he's hell bent on getting a Targaryen (a competent one) on the throne and has even tried to create "the prince that was promised", first he tries to replace the mad king with Rheagar and now young Griff that has been molded since birth to be the perfect king.
So he's trying to save the world. Best small councilor ever.
Funny thing about Rossart is that the realm at large doesn't even know he was Hand. Last publicly known Hand of Aerys is Lord Staunton. Aerys decided on the "burn the capital down" plan pretty late so the time between him ordering that, Staunton refusing, Rossart being made Hand and burning Staunton, and finally Jaime killing Rossart and the Sack is so small that he isn't even in the historical record because Jaime didn't talk about the Wildfire plan and everything about it.
I haven't started the video yet but hands down. Cersei's Small Council of Lickspittle. Which SHE wanted.
Cersei - controls everything and listens to no one, ignores actual threats vs perceived ones
Master of coin/ lord treasurer - Harys Swyft - as a "hostage" against Kevan since he's his father-in-law - owed money to Tytos Lannister and had to give up his daughter as a hostage until paid back. Sheer brilliance to appoint a man with this poor credit score. His idea to refill the treasury is to raise taxes during a war. Nice
His better ideas came from Kevan who is now dead, stabbed by children under Varys. Conveniently Tyrion- sized
Grand Maester Pycelle- former Tywin fanboy, most knowledgeable, having served like 6 kings, he gives great advice, which Cersei ignores, thinking him old and weak. Dead now anyway in a Varys flavored assassination
Master of laws/ justiciar - Orton Merryweather - Qualifications- none. Wait. She's sleeping with his shady wife who's most likely in a plot against her
Master of ships/grand admiral - Aurane Waters - very sea worthy - actual considerations: handsomeness - steals the brand new warships and becomes a pirate. At least he reported on Renly's allegedly near death state first...
Master of whisperers - Qyburn- getting information from the "whisperers" by paying them coin. When those people are probably feeding him whatever Varys wants them to know. Can't even figure out the name behind the crow's eye banners. Not to mention the whole torture-necromancy-human experiment government funded project he has going on in the basement
the most hilarious part is her complaining in her mind about their stupidity, these "why am I surrounded by idiots"-thoughts.
Because you CHOSE them for not thinking for themselves, that's why.
@blaubeer8039 why oh why do all these useless men betray me?
@@akg517another one: getting upset about how Tommen agrees with everything and doesn't show strength. Also: getting upset about Tommen disagreeing with her later.
These chapters really are a goldmine
@blaubeer8039 It's only after I reread the books a few times that it dawned on me that Margaery is the Queen - like with authority.
Many people from Cersei's chapters drop the title altogether or call her "the little queen"
Margaery was well within her right to command Cersei to tell her of Loras but I was shocked at the audacity
@blaubeer8039 Cersi also puts the cart before the horse a lot
1. Aurane: Loras is on death's door
Cersei: That's fantastic! Tell me about it twice so I can go make Margaery cry myself!
*doesn't call anyone to clarify
2. Cersei: Are we sure Davos is dead?
Them: Yea. We heard there's an unrecognizable severed head with and onion in it's mouth and a shortened hand
Cersei: Seems legit. Send him his son.
Wyman: *ramps up plotting rebellion in the North
3. Cersei: I'm free of Margaery now that she's been arrested on false charges of in*est, adultery and fornication
Cersei: *gets arrested on true charges of in*est, adultery, fornication, regicide and deicide by a militia SHE greenlit
4. Cersei: Littlefinger had a talent for finding gold. We should bring him back. Send those tapestries he wanted
*doesn't even inspect said tapestries
Littlefinger: *skips town to marry a rich widow after bankrupting the realm
5. Small council: there's talk of dragons
Cersei: haha. Those don't exist, silly
6. Envoy from bank of Braavos: Pay us our money
Cersei: No
Envoy: Alright. To Stannis then...
7. Cersei: Jamie will come fight for my honour or die with me! He loves me too much. He's probably racing ahead of his men to see me
Jamie: *reads letter. Burn that. I saw nothing
8. Cersei: *assumes the high Sparrow will free Osney after his confession so he can go up to the wall and kill Jon
High Sparrow: Osney shall taste mercy in the afterlife. Now, about this Queen he slept with...
9. Cersei: Rosby's dead? Fantastic! I want all his assets transferred to the crown
Them: He has a ward...
Cersei: who cares? Do it!
* doesn't check who the ward is, the strength of the claim or whether Gyles had assets or debt
Jaimie literally killed the king, the reason doesn’t matter in the context the office of lord commander of the kings guard.
SPOILERS FOR THE FUTURE OF HOTD
I would also say that Mysario is kind of tie with Tyanna because she learns that Deamon is cheating on Rhaenera with Nettles then waits to tell her until after Hugh and Ulf switch sides to the greens and lies about Nettles being a witch causing her to order the execution of Nettles and Adam which backfires horribly as Nettle flees and vanishes from the history books and Deamon and Adam fly away and get themselves killed.
Hell yea, this boi been pumping out these videos
otto didn't start the war, Viserys did when he sired 3 sons, grandsons of his own hand, and then refused to acknowledge them or deal with them.
Thank you 💃.
And also ignoring the disregard Rheanyra has for law, tradition and decency.
She should have been exiled.
Brandon the Burner would probably be the worst master of ships
I don’t think that position was established yet when he did his little pyromania
The viceral fear a maester must feel when King needs a master of coin and just says "Send a raven for lord Celtigar" at any point in history.
Criston Cole was a douche and politically motivated yes, but he died fighting for his king. I agree with Jaime 100% in killing Aerys psycho ass, but keep it real; the Kingsguard job is to protect the king. Jaime literally killed his king. Automatically the worst Kingsguard and Lord Commander of the Kingsguard in history. That's quite literally his only job.
He also is partly responsible for the entire start of the War of the Five Kings for pushing Bran out the window.
Another interesting Hand to look at was Grand Maester Munkun, who quite notably in 135 AC was THE defacto ruler of Westeros and held the most power EVER in Westeros history. Like, virtually the entire Regency Council had left office or died, the Small Council at that time solely consisted of him and Robert Rowan, who was a shattered shell after his torture in the dungeons. Aegon III was a sullen shell while the rest of the Targaryen family was distracted by the collapse of the Rogare Bank and Secret Siege. And as Grand Maester, he had control directly over the raven messaging network and thus complete control over the flow of information. So for that year, he had absolute control over the entire realm. So... what did he do with all that power? Perhaps, secretly orchestrate the poisoning of the remaining dragon eggs while everyone else was busy with the Secret Siege?
I have an inkling that Hot Pie would make an INCREDIBLE Master of Ships.
Law School?
Quinn the GM for Master of Laws!
Regent Cersei: "Imma speed run this."
[Quickly gulps down goblet of wine]
[Wipes her mouth]
Regent Cersei: "Aight. Let's do this!"
Cersei is so terrible at ruling that it dooms the excellent Kevan Lannister. Ser Kevan is made Regent for King Tommen and is actually quite competent at the job. He's undoing the administrative and political idiocy of Regent Cersei. Kevan was doing such a great job of it that Varys and his little kids kill him. They wanted Cersei to keep on doing what she was doing destroying herself and dooming Tommen, and Kevan was disrupting that.
I presume that Daemon was both the worst Master of Laws and a pretty solid 2nd/3rd for Master of Coin
Worst Lord Commander should be Marston Waters.
Maester Merion is actually not the worst. Or rather, he is and he isn't. He could possibly be the best, or not. He's Schrodinger's Maester.
As I was watching the show all I could think is, alicent realises she's arming those who would stand against a woman(similarly to how cersei armed the faith), that scene with them all ignoring her was brilliant because ut showed the difference, the blacks have people who are old and set in ways but stand behind there queen. No one stands behind alicent,
Hotpie becomes Bran's Master of Pâtissiers and Warden of Browned Butter
At first I was thinking Ryam Redwyne for worst Hand but you mentioning Rossart reminded me of two important details. 1-Ryam was the unlucky guy who had to follow Barth and as real history tells us, highly intelligent administrators tend to build complex bureaucracies that are second nature to them but drive their successors to madness. 2-for all his faults Ryam never tried to facilitate the possible destruction of the city he was in charge of. So yeah Rossart wins.
I wasn't Subscribed TIL NOW? Weird, good idea plugging
The only reason Bron isn't the worst master of coin is because we don't get to see how horrible he does. But on paper, you can't pick a worse person for the position
For a split second I thought I saw lakers lebron on the thumbnail
I dont get how Varys isnt automatically the worst master of whispers by virtue of the fact that he is actively working towards overthrowing the rulers he serves. Yes he is good at the things that a master of whispers does, but he is actively using all those skills against the regime that he supposedly works for. Giving him a pass is like giving Jaime a pass for killing his king and saying hes a good Kingsguard because in theory he posesses the skills of a good Kingsguard.
If we include people that served under rulers that didn’t sit the iron throne (yet) I think Groleo is a great contender for the worst master of ships (or lord admiral). He just doesn’t have any ships
Also. Pycelle let the hand of the king die. Pycelle not only enable the death of jon arryn, but is at the nexus for Robert riding north, igniting the stark - lannister feud further. Unless a maester caused the dance, pycelle might take the price(pricelle, if you will)
Edwell Celtigar was a top pick by Maegor
Hand : Uwin Peake (trying to overthrow the king while poisoning the queen put him higher than Rossart but not by much)
Law : don't know but maybe Renly
Coin : Littlefinger
Whisper : Varys
Lord Commander : probably Criston but I like to think Jaime would be considered objectively worst because no one else killed the king they were sworn to
Ship : Aurane Waters
Grand Maester : Pycelle.
The funny thing is how many of them are from Robert's small council lol
+Quinn the GM
Someone please you need to make a short synopsis of a GOT fanfic that has some king ruling with this small council and see how it all collapses xD
Renly understood that right by conquest is more legitimate than right by inheritance, the baratheon claim itself depends on that fact.
Stannis cannot claim that inheritance trumps conquest, or he would have to rescind his right to the throne.
Renly was not entitled to the throne simply because he did not have the power to take it in the end. I'd actually argue that it's Stannis' fault because without Stannis, Renly has a pretty good chance of taking the throne and it would have been a much more stable and peaceful realm than under the lannisters.
Full disclosure I haven't watched the video, however, GET MY BOY PYCELLE OUT OF THAT THUMBNAIL. Dude was by far the smartest person on Cersei's council
While he’s definetly not as bad as Rossart, I think Ambrose Butterwell deserves a dishonorable mention for his bad job at failing to stop the Blackfyre Rebellion.
Worst Hand of the King? Easy; Orys Baratheon. Everybody knows a Hand needs both his hands. Jaime said so himself.
🤭. But seriously though he wasn't bad during his time in office.
To this day I have no idea why people can’t come up with what a master of laws could do. Proposing laws, revising laws, overseeing the carrying out of said laws, seems clear
There’s just 0 examples of that in the actual text so it’s hard to substantiate that claim
Logic indicates it would be an Attorney General/Minister of Justice position but as Quinn points out, books don't really explain what the position is supposed to do at all.
Lucille never served the crown, he served Tywin. Littlefinger actively spent his entire stint on the Small Council plotting and working against the crown. And Qyburn is the worst because everything he passed on to Cersei involved Oldtown. Nothing else was more accurate than rumors in the streets.
How did I never consciously realize Jon Snow and Jon Connington are both... Jon. +1 reason for non-name chapter titles
3:44 - a 'Clash of KINS'?? Oh no no no no how will Quinn EVER recover from this BLUNDER?
The Council at the end of Season 8 has to be historically terrible.
Bronn - a self serving thief, no family connections. Davos - can't even read, zero family connections. Brienne - hopelessly naive, no political experience, barely any connections. Sam Tarly - competent, no experience. Then Bran as king is literally an empty chair - he does nothing.
There are multiple Tyrells still living In old town. The commander of there city watch is a Tyrell . Yet bronn gets highgarden 🤦
You're too hard on Renly. He honestly didn't do anything wrong. As Master of Laws there were no significant unpunished laws broken and when one came to his attention, that of succession, he formed a coalition to subdue unrest under peaceful means. Too much is held against Renly for being murdered before he had to stand for his values, and far too little credit for his time in office.
I think Marston Waters is also a solid pick for worst LC (and HotK for that matter).
For me Otto Hightower is the worst Hand of the King, because, for a man to criticise other for their lack of foresight it was his own lack, coupled with sheer spite, that coursed the Dance of the Dragons. If he hadn’t pushed for Rhaenyra to replace Daemon as hair, a decision that was basically a “fuck you” to the Rogue Prince, his grandson would have been the uncontested hair to the Iron Throne.
If we ever get Fire & Blood part 2 then Aegon IV's revolving door of council members will probably become contenders for the worst. A4 himself probably ranked them by who had the hottest daughter.
Currently King's Landing has:
-The worst small council
-The worst King's guard
-A child king
-No Tywin Lannister to save their asses
Yeah,Aegon will fucking dogwalk conquering the crownlands lmao
How is Lady Misery not even mentioned as a contender for the worst Master of Whispers ever?
@@frankvandorp2059 She was not the oficial master of whisperers.
@@masterplokoon8803 That seems a technicality TBH. She functioned as one in all aspects.
only issue I saw with this video is saying otto was the cause of the dance. the general consensus is that it was viserys. could of married lena and avoided the conflict, but picked lust. then goes against every law in westeros by naming his daughter heir. she is also to blame for having illegitimate kids and not a single true born one (until daemon). otto saw an opportunity and took it. viserys was too weak as daemon would warn him about him but never listened
What you chose for Master of Laws was definitely the perfect choice
Cercei level of dumbness and evilness in books is almost cartoon - like. He created a council with fucking Harys Swift as hand to annoy his uncle and made Piecelle the voice of reason with her choices.