My mileage varied. I bought a set about 18 months ago, put them on my "Schiller" and played it for 6 months, and then took them off. I couldn't tell any difference at all. I now have a Dolce; I may try them again.
I put the large plate on the top bow just to see what it does with intonation. It seems to bring the 6th and 8th partials down a bit, but I haven't done a with / without comparison.
I just ran into a couple people at IET who had these and really like them, and I've just watched the tests by Stephen and Misa Mead, and now by you, and I'm convinced enough to at least try them. I'm a geezer player at a reasonably high level for my age, but I'm looking for whatever help I can get.
Here is a published study where the players were blindfolded and they tried to tell by playing if the Lefreque was on their instrument or not. None of them could do it, of course. The results were no better than if they had just guessed randomly. It’s amazing to me that this fraud persists. pub.dega-akustik.de/ISMA2019/data/articles/000095.pdf
I think ‘fraud’ is a strong expression, perhaps not applicable here. The study referenced isn’t a ‘double blind’ test in my opinion. Blindfolding the trumpet player is all very well, but does this make for a blind test, when the most important thing here is hearing? All musicians naturally respond to feedback from hearing what they play. A true ‘blind’ test here would require the player to not be able to hear what they are playing, which is clearly absurd. It’s reasonable to assume that the player will modify their playing both with the plates fitted and not fitted, I.e. they play differently in each case. Not a ‘blind’ test in anyone’s book! Only when the perception of music within the human brain is fully understood, can anyone begin to design a truly objective test. And that’s a long way off. Perhaps folk should enjoy listening to, and playing music, wholly subjectively; if it feels good and sounds good, then that’s great! Leave the science out of it until the science is fully understood.
@@ianwalker4917 I think you are confused about what is meant by "double blind'. There is a subject and an experimenter. In this case, the player is the subject and the person who hands them the horn is the experimenter. The player does not know if the Lefreque is on the instrument or not, so the experiment is blind. It would be double blind if the experimenter also did not know. The advantage of a double blind experiment is to guard against the danger that the experimenter might give subconscious cues to the subject. The results of this experiment show that none of the players could tell if the Lefreque was on the instrument or not, so I don't think we need to worry that the experimenter was giving them cues. The science we are talking about here is just the kind of careful activity that is always needed to distinguish sense from nonsense. Without it, we would be using leeches to cure illness and astrology to decide when to harvest crops.
@@ianwalker4917 the player is blindfolded. The point of the experiment is for the player to try to determine if the Lefreque is attached or not by playing and listening. It turns out they cannot tell.
Sorry to labour this point John, but I think it’s worth it. I think you are right to be sceptical of the plates. However, I also think the test should be viewed with scepticism, on three counts: 1. The tester knows whether or not the plates are fitted when he hands the instrument to the player. It’s stated that the tester remains silent throughout, but that does not exclude non-verbal cues about the state of the instrument, hence my point about the player possibly being aware prior to playing. 2. Players under test conditions experience events differently than when, say, playing at home. I was once challenged to tell the difference between a single malt and a cheap blended whisky - I failed. I’m sure if I wasn’t being challenged, I’d have known which was which. It’s funny how environments affect perceptions. (The above points cast some doubt as to the validity of the results). 3. The tone of the introduction to the study indicates to me that there was a desire to show the suggested benefits of the plates to be ‘snake-oil’. This may lead to confirmation bias. This casts doubt as to the validity of the reporting of the results. Designing a water-tight test for the plates would I think be nigh-on impossible, partly because the inventor hasn’t in my opinion started from a scientific basis. His explanation does nothing to promote understanding of the way the plates work; maybe things were lost in translation. However, that’s not to say they don’t work, only that science at the moment can’t explain them. Many people of all abilities seem to attest to their positive effects. Many people also think they are bogus. All this has prompted me to buy a set and see for myself!
Henry Oliver Otts there is a lot more going on with your instrument that you perceive. For example, when you blow into your mouthpiece, the mouthpiece and the leadpipe vibrate. Energy is lost in those vibrations because they are vibrating as two separate sources. The plates bridge those sources together making the mouthpiece and the leadpipe function as one, which leads to less vibration. I.E. more of your air is used to create a better tone with less effort and overtones in the fundamental pitch are fixed which help the sound as well. Hope this helps...
Me neither. The inventor's demonstration is not relevant and just misleading. Sure if you change the length of a tube the resonant frequency changes (that after all is how wind instruments work!) - but his device just straps on the outside. Second, the connections between the tubes are already pretty tight so I don't see that loosely strapping an extra bit of metal on the outside will have a significant effect on the coupling. Third, I don't think the vibration of the tube contributes much to the sound. Anyone who has these devices could try some experiments - what happens if you put it somewhere other than across a join? - does a similar weighted bit of metal have the same effect? How about a double-blind test? Disclaimer; I'm neither much of a musician nor physicist.
Interesting. Hadn't seen these before. This kind of thing can definitely have an effect. How much is up for debate, but whatever. Added weight can improve slotting and, with some clever placement, you might eat up some unwanted overtones. I'd try some, but my horns don't make me money and these critters aren't cheap. That plastic tube demo definitely not on point. I know setting up some kind of audio spectrum analyzer is a lot of work, but...yeah.
Hey Aaron, it was nice seeing you at fmea. I didn't get to see the lefreque bench but I always found. their concept interesting and I have been skeptical of them. I am willing to try them given the chance but it does seam interesting idea
It was great seeing you there as well!!!! Yeah, I was super skeptical myself. I suggest you head over to all-county and try them out in the shop there. They have all the different metal options and you would be able to play in a nice practice room where you can really evaluate for yourself. The room even has mics so you can record yourself. I also suggest starting with the leadpipe plates first. If you go over too all-county music tell Fred (the owner) I said hi!
Hi Aaron, I am a bass bone player and have been interested in trying this system out for a while now. On the website, they recommend a 41 or 76 for all trombones. Which of these would you recommend for the MP to lead pipe connection! Great review, btw!
lowbrass81 hey! I use the 41mm with the leadpipe on my trombone and it works wonderfully! Here is a photo of it on my trombone: instagram.com/p/BQML5CDAeEJ/
Thanks for the Video! Do you find a difference between the 33mm and 41mm for the mouthpiece connection? I’ve been using a friends, and found a huge difference! Just about to order for my Prestige. Cheers, John, Southampton, UK
John Hanchett yes, for that connection on Euphonium you have to use the 41mm. The Le Freque has to touch the cup of the mouthpiece and reach the lead pipe.
Hi Aaron, I am a trombone player and have used the plates for just over a year. I completely agree that they are worth trying, and that for many people they can have a positive effect. I only use the plates on the mouthpiece; and what a difference it makes! I would be interested to find out (in your capacity as a trombone player) where else on the instrument may be beneficial to place them?
Hey Ray! I play trombone in a brass band and I use one on the leadpipe as well. I also use one on top of the main tuning slide connecting the slide to the bell essentially. Here is a photo of that idea on a pbone: instagram.com/p/BQNxm5MD5Ia/
Pretty much the same concept as heavy mass mouthpieces for all of u that don't understand, also that demonstration for the founder was misleading as hell changing the length changes the resonate frequency so him staying the same not it obviously wasn't gonna sound as good
Yes, depending on which metal plates you choose and what metal your instrument is made out of you can get different sounds. If you have the opportunity to try these out at a store of a conference I highly suggest trying out as many possible different metals as you can.
Wow, what the Lefreque guy said was a bunch of nonsense. It was just word salad to confuse people. The spped of sound in your instrument is is a factor of the air density and that is it. That's effected by temperature, barometric pressure or altitude. The speed of sound in metal is many, many times that of air. What he was saying about wavelengths was nonsense. Like he's trying to make some analogy about the dopplar effect or something. Maybe they do something, but for sure they don't do anything like what that guy said.
Founding Champion I honestly can’t answer that. I don’t have a lot of experience with loud mouthpieces. I do know that the lefreque typically affect more than just the mouthpiece connection, but the way the waves move through the whole horn. :)
I have to be honest, I couldn't really hear the difference. I'll have to try again later when I have access to my phone which has a better DAC than my computer. . .and when my internet connection is good enough so that I can watch the video in full 1080p. And maybe try with multiple sets of higher end headphones.
Have you noticed that in your intro you misspelled "Reviews"? I dont really care but I am just wondering if that has been brought to your attention or not.
If it needs that sort of analysis for comparison then it’s a waste of 💰. If you can’t feel it or hear it in your bones then buy yourself a better mouthpiece. This gimmick is like the arthritis bracelet. If you believe it works then you fool yourself in making it work.
My mileage varied. I bought a set about 18 months ago, put them on my "Schiller" and played it for 6 months, and then took them off. I couldn't tell any difference at all. I now have a Dolce; I may try them again.
Did you try them out again?
I put the large plate on the top bow just to see what it does with intonation. It seems to bring the 6th and 8th partials down a bit, but I haven't done a with / without comparison.
I just ran into a couple people at IET who had these and really like them, and I've just watched the tests by Stephen and Misa Mead, and now by you, and I'm convinced enough to at least try them. I'm a geezer player at a reasonably high level for my age, but I'm looking for whatever help I can get.
David Bjornstad I bet you'll enjoy putting them on. Let me know what you think!
Thanks Aaron, I will try it out on the tuning slide and let you know how It feels/sounds.
Did you try it? what do you think?
Here is a published study where the players were blindfolded and they tried to tell by playing if the Lefreque was on their instrument or not. None of them could do it, of course. The results were no better than if they had just guessed randomly. It’s amazing to me that this fraud persists. pub.dega-akustik.de/ISMA2019/data/articles/000095.pdf
I think ‘fraud’ is a strong expression, perhaps not applicable here. The study referenced isn’t a ‘double blind’ test in my opinion. Blindfolding the trumpet player is all very well, but does this make for a blind test, when the most important thing here is hearing? All musicians naturally respond to feedback from hearing what they play. A true ‘blind’ test here would require the player to not be able to hear what they are playing, which is clearly absurd. It’s reasonable to assume that the player will modify their playing both with the plates fitted and not fitted, I.e. they play differently in each case. Not a ‘blind’ test in anyone’s book! Only when the perception of music within the human brain is fully understood, can anyone begin to design a truly objective test. And that’s a long way off. Perhaps folk should enjoy listening to, and playing music, wholly subjectively; if it feels good and sounds good, then that’s great! Leave the science out of it until the science is fully understood.
@@ianwalker4917 I think you are confused about what is meant by "double blind'. There is a subject and an experimenter. In this case, the player is the subject and the person who hands them the horn is the experimenter. The player does not know if the Lefreque is on the instrument or not, so the experiment is blind. It would be double blind if the experimenter also did not know. The advantage of a double blind experiment is to guard against the danger that the experimenter might give subconscious cues to the subject. The results of this experiment show that none of the players could tell if the Lefreque was on the instrument or not, so I don't think we need to worry that the experimenter was giving them cues. The science we are talking about here is just the kind of careful activity that is always needed to distinguish sense from nonsense. Without it, we would be using leeches to cure illness and astrology to decide when to harvest crops.
I do understand what is meant by double blind. Kindly explain how the player has no way of knowing whether or not the plates are fitted.
@@ianwalker4917 the player is blindfolded. The point of the experiment is for the player to try to determine if the Lefreque is attached or not by playing and listening. It turns out they cannot tell.
Sorry to labour this point John, but I think it’s worth it. I think you are right to be sceptical of the plates. However, I also think the test should be viewed with scepticism, on three counts: 1. The tester knows whether or not the plates are fitted when he hands the instrument to the player. It’s stated that the tester remains silent throughout, but that does not exclude non-verbal cues about the state of the instrument, hence my point about the player possibly being aware prior to playing. 2. Players under test conditions experience events differently than when, say, playing at home. I was once challenged to tell the difference between a single malt and a cheap blended whisky - I failed. I’m sure if I wasn’t being challenged, I’d have known which was which. It’s funny how environments affect perceptions. (The above points cast some doubt as to the validity of the results). 3. The tone of the introduction to the study indicates to me that there was a desire to show the suggested benefits of the plates to be ‘snake-oil’. This may lead to confirmation bias. This casts doubt as to the validity of the reporting of the results. Designing a water-tight test for the plates would I think be nigh-on impossible, partly because the inventor hasn’t in my opinion started from a scientific basis. His explanation does nothing to promote understanding of the way the plates work; maybe things were lost in translation. However, that’s not to say they don’t work, only that science at the moment can’t explain them. Many people of all abilities seem to attest to their positive effects. Many people also think they are bogus. All this has prompted me to buy a set and see for myself!
I still don't understand.. how is strapping these pieces of metal to my euph making it sound better..
Henry Oliver Otts there is a lot more going on with your instrument that you perceive.
For example, when you blow into your mouthpiece, the mouthpiece and the leadpipe vibrate. Energy is lost in those vibrations because they are vibrating as two separate sources. The plates bridge those sources together making the mouthpiece and the leadpipe function as one, which leads to less vibration. I.E. more of your air is used to create a better tone with less effort and overtones in the fundamental pitch are fixed which help the sound as well.
Hope this helps...
You do understand. The demonstration by the maker is misleading: he chooses not to find the next position of resonance by extending the tube further.
Me neither. The inventor's demonstration is not relevant and just misleading. Sure if you change the length of a tube the resonant frequency changes (that after all is how wind instruments work!) - but his device just straps on the outside. Second, the connections between the tubes are already pretty tight so I don't see that loosely strapping an extra bit of metal on the outside will have a significant effect on the coupling. Third, I don't think the vibration of the tube contributes much to the sound.
Anyone who has these devices could try some experiments - what happens if you put it somewhere other than across a join? - does a similar weighted bit of metal have the same effect? How about a double-blind test?
Disclaimer; I'm neither much of a musician nor physicist.
AllanTheBanjo My private teacher was given the silver one to try and he said he saw no difference. He plays tuba.
more air
Interesting. Hadn't seen these before. This kind of thing can definitely have an effect. How much is up for debate, but whatever. Added weight can improve slotting and, with some clever placement, you might eat up some unwanted overtones. I'd try some, but my horns don't make me money and these critters aren't cheap.
That plastic tube demo definitely not on point. I know setting up some kind of audio spectrum analyzer is a lot of work, but...yeah.
beautiful
Hey Aaron, it was nice seeing you at fmea. I didn't get to see the lefreque bench but I always found. their concept interesting and I have been skeptical of them. I am willing to try them given the chance but it does seam interesting idea
It was great seeing you there as well!!!! Yeah, I was super skeptical myself. I suggest you head over to all-county and try them out in the shop there. They have all the different metal options and you would be able to play in a nice practice room where you can really evaluate for yourself. The room even has mics so you can record yourself.
I also suggest starting with the leadpipe plates first.
If you go over too all-county music tell Fred (the owner) I said hi!
Hi Aaron, I am a bass bone player and have been interested in trying this system out for a while now. On the website, they recommend a 41 or 76 for all trombones. Which of these would you recommend for the MP to lead pipe connection! Great review, btw!
lowbrass81 hey! I use the 41mm with the leadpipe on my trombone and it works wonderfully!
Here is a photo of it on my trombone: instagram.com/p/BQML5CDAeEJ/
Can someone link me to the piece played at the end of the video?
Thanks for the Video!
Do you find a difference between the 33mm and 41mm for the mouthpiece connection?
I’ve been using a friends, and found a huge difference! Just about to order for my Prestige.
Cheers,
John,
Southampton, UK
John Hanchett yes, for that connection on Euphonium you have to use the 41mm. The Le Freque has to touch the cup of the mouthpiece and reach the lead pipe.
Hi Aaron, I am a trombone player and have used the plates for just over a year. I completely agree that they are worth trying, and that for many people they can have a positive effect. I only use the plates on the mouthpiece; and what a difference it makes! I would be interested to find out (in your capacity as a trombone player) where else on the instrument may be beneficial to place them?
Hey Ray! I play trombone in a brass band and I use one on the leadpipe as well. I also use one on top of the main tuning slide connecting the slide to the bell essentially.
Here is a photo of that idea on a pbone: instagram.com/p/BQNxm5MD5Ia/
Do you know if this will work on tuba?
I do, and it does! I have a few students on tuba who have started using them.
According to lefreque, yes. I tried one on mine, it *works*, BUT I'm not convinced it's not placebo.
Pretty much the same concept as heavy mass mouthpieces for all of u that don't understand, also that demonstration for the founder was misleading as hell changing the length changes the resonate frequency so him staying the same not it obviously wasn't gonna sound as good
Woah it's my audition piece
whats the name of the music piece at 7:00?
Its a chunk from the Bordogni (Rochut) etude number 4.
Does the composition of the metal make a difference in the tone production?
Yes, depending on which metal plates you choose and what metal your instrument is made out of you can get different sounds. If you have the opportunity to try these out at a store of a conference I highly suggest trying out as many possible different metals as you can.
Thank you!
Thank you for checking out the video!
Wow, what the Lefreque guy said was a bunch of nonsense. It was just word salad to confuse people. The spped of sound in your instrument is is a factor of the air density and that is it. That's effected by temperature, barometric pressure or altitude. The speed of sound in metal is many, many times that of air. What he was saying about wavelengths was nonsense. Like he's trying to make some analogy about the dopplar effect or something. Maybe they do something, but for sure they don't do anything like what that guy said.
so about the same reason why people use loud brand mouthpieces?
Founding Champion I honestly can’t answer that. I don’t have a lot of experience with loud mouthpieces.
I do know that the lefreque typically affect more than just the mouthpiece connection, but the way the waves move through the whole horn. :)
I have to be honest, I couldn't really hear the difference. I'll have to try again later when I have access to my phone which has a better DAC than my computer. . .and when my internet connection is good enough so that I can watch the video in full 1080p. And maybe try with multiple sets of higher end headphones.
Keyboard Warrior yeah give that a go
I think without sounds better !!!!
WITHOUT LeFreque sounds better!
Have you noticed that in your intro you misspelled "Reviews"? I dont really care but I am just wondering if that has been brought to your attention or not.
FrankDoesLockes someone had pointed it out, and I fixed it in later videos. Good looking out!!
came from Instagram ❤
Glad you found your way over here!!!
5:33
6:22
If it needs that sort of analysis for comparison then it’s a waste of 💰. If you can’t feel it or hear it in your bones then buy yourself a better mouthpiece. This gimmick is like the arthritis bracelet. If you believe it works then you fool yourself in making it work.
Double blind testing.... that’s the only way to evaluate these gimmicks.
Snake oil.
Ben Daniels sorry you feel that way, thanks for checking out the video though :)