There is another reason as to why you fairly often don't get to use all your weapon charges: You can only equip one weapon at a time. Sometimes you draw too many of them, and it turns out that if you don't waste that one charge on your fiery war axe right now, you won't be able to have the Death's Bite deathrattle ready next turn when you want to combo with grim patron or clear the next wave of silver hand recruits. This is only one example, but it happens often enough that you have to take it into account when you're designing a deck. Too many weapons and you'll end up losing tons of value, constantly having to override weapons to make the best play/keep up with the tempo. -- On another note I'd like to disagree with "light's justice is bad but candleshot is good". Candleshot saw some play in spell hunter, mostly. It's easier to get a slot in a deck that can't run minions. Not only that, hunter, like other classes such as priest, suffers a lot to deal 1 damage to the board, but unlike priest hunter doesn't have as many comeback mechanics, if any. So for hunter it is super valuable to have a tool that helps controlling the board early on without spending precious recurring minion damage. Protecting your huffer for one turn might be the difference between lethal 5 turns down the line or you opponent stabilising. Paladin has dudes to help with those pesky x/1's that could potentially kill your valued knife juggler or whatever else you're protecting, so it is natural that light's justice isn't as important. HOWEVER, I'd like to point out that light's justice isn't a bad card, by any metrics other than "does it see play in constructed?". It's insane in arena, helping your smaller minions to trade up and establish board control. Don't underestimate 4 damage for one mana, that's a heck lot of tempo. Hell, muster for battle is one of the best cards ever printed, probably the best 3 drop, and don't get me wrong, 3 dudes is insane, but light's justice also plays a part in carrying that card. It's not uncommon for it to finish off or even single-handedly kill 4 minions in total... this is some serious card advantage we're talking about here. All in all I don't think comparing weapons to ones from other classes is very productive. Some classes have innate strategies they can't deviate too much from, like hunter... so what good would gorehowl do in the hands of rexxar? You have rogues buffing their weapons, so could you just give them light's justice? Not to mention that some classes can heal, others can't... would truesilver champion be insane in rogue? Idk, maybe not, but it's hard to tell and I don't think you can just say spectral cutlass is bad because truesilver is better (btw I actually though cutlass was a lot worst than it actually is after playing with it, but I don't think it's constructed material still). -- TL;DR: You can't equip two weapons at a time and light's justice can provide some serious card advantage for a one mana card.
The design space for weapons gets crippled by the availability of very cheap weapon removal. Everyone owns two copies of Acidic Swamp Ooze, and the fact that you can destroy your opponent's weapon without sacrificing ANY tempo at all really limits the type of weapons that can be played. It also makes them hard to balance because the only weapons that will see play are those that are good enough to warrant a deck slot with just one swing. I wish Blizzard would make weapon removal an actual tech choice for decks instead of just a 2 drop that you throw in when there's a lot of weapons around. Things like Harrison Jones should be the norm for weapon removal, not Ooze. Make it more expensive and exact more of a cost on the card in terms of stats, but with a higher payoff. There's a ton of unused design space for weapons, but it's all crowded out by a 2 mana 3/2
Card games being overeager with the counter mechanics can really cripple fun, I get the same feeling in Eternal, what's the point of putting interesting effects creatures in a deck when the opponent can just snuff them out with a perfect 3/3 flyer for 3 with a silence battle cry. Ooze in HS or giving too many board clears to a class/color can feel the same as well.
havign different sorf of weapon removal is better becuase you can choose which ever suits your deck, plus hvaing a weapon removal is also unreliable since it is only 1 card in your deck and even though ooze doesnt look likea bad card it is very bad to include in your deck, so you are actually paying a price for it since most classes do not have weapons anyway and they are dead in most matchups.
Pure removal is the problem. Even Harrison is a problem for high cost long term weapons (even worse couse of the draw effect). To fix this it would be better to have cards that counter weapons via lowering the weapons use amount.
The 2 mana ooze has too high of stats for its cost to effect ratio, and plus all of the ran weapon removals are in standard, so playing a weapon (even daggering for a rogue) is a gamble that you hope that they don’t have any removal
Something that always confused me was why Kings Defender is considered a bad card even after the nerf of Fiery War Axe. After its nerf FWA has the exact same stats as KD. Both cost 3 mana, have 3 attack, and 2 durability. The only difference being of course that KD has the added card text saying, Battleecry: gain 1 durability if you control a taunt minion. Which is a direct upgrade from post nerf FWA which is still considered a good/decent card, and sees play in a majority of warrior decks. The dilemma I see is why you wouldn't play KD over FWA, I mean at worst you are playing a FWA which is still a good card. And the condition isn't even that hard to meet, I can't really think of a deck in any class that doesn't run ANY taunt minions (especially with Tar Creeper running around). On paper it makes 0 sense.
Kings defender isnt bad if you have enough taunt minions in your deck. But if you arent playing quest warrior or something like that, you shouldnt play it, just as you wouldnt play fiery war axe.
Nobody denies that King's Defender is strictly better than post-nerf Fiery War Axe. 🙂 It's just that 3/2 weapons with conditional bonuses for 3 Mana only sometimes make the cut in Ranked. They're still great in Arena, for example.
Its sheer poor tempo... You want to play it turn 3, but without a turn 1/2 taunt it is irrelevant for the slot it takes. Paladin has always been a tempo-based class and turn 1/2 taunts are rarely worth considering as they will be crushed by the 2 mana 3/2 tempo swing... On paper it seems okay, in practice it is awful...
Rockbiter weapon isn’t for sure a 3/1 “weapon” you could give it to windfury minions/doomhammer, which would make it a 3/2 or in wild with mega windfury a 3/4
It wouldn't make it a 3/2 it would make it a 6/1 or a 12/1. Windfury is just a fancy way of dealing double damage most of the time. Of course windfury could be used to get through a minion and keep going and doomhammer takes durability one swing at a time, but the reason durability matters so much is because you can't use the value immediately and you leave yourself open to weapon removal.
I’d have done the Shaman Weapon so that you Discover a Spell and get it to your hand with a certain cost reduction. That way, the first swing can already be counted as a value move if the discovered spells are good
I am a bit concerned that Shaman was not included in your analysis over a seemingly personal vendetta, and urge you to reconsider. (1:55) - Written out under Rogue, Warrior, Hunter, and Paladin is "Shaman doesn't count". What does this even mean? No reason given to why Shaman is not included. It's incredibly ridiculous that you can just seemingly throw this class aside and yet reference it's cards: Rockbiter Weapon (5:01 and again at 5:21) & Jade Claws (11:15). Recognize that Blizzard makes weapons for this class and even "nerfs" those weapons, some into oblivion. Remember when Shaman had Spirit Claws? A 1 mana 1 attack 3 durability weapon that got +2 attack when you have +spell damage on your side of the board (generally from a minion or Shaman hero power: Wrath of Air Totem). Not fun times... Maybe you didn't want to have to go into detail about the Shaman's (arguably bad) overload mechanic, seeing as there are multiple weapons that have overload. I find it to be over-stepping when you reference Jade Claws and Rockbiter Weapon in your video but refuse to acknowledge Shaman as a class that has weapons for whatever reason. You can't just not include Shaman while still including Shaman; I think I made my point pretty clear. One last note: Please google "acidic" and press the speaker icon next to it to hear how it is properly pronounced; it is not "A-SEE-DICK", it's "UH-SID-ICK" (7:26) Not trying to belittle you or anything like that, just trying to correct a small mistake that I see being made. I did enjoy your video overall and I appreciate the time you took to establish your own thoughts alongside the simplified yet detailed explanation of just a small portion a vastly complicated card game.
Shaman doesn't count? Looking at the wild collection they have quite a few any many have been extensively used such as spirit claws, jade claws, powermace and doom hammer. Each of those weapons have been crucial in meta decks. I don't agree when you said which weapons are good and bad because in arena all weapons are valuable barring warrior's 0/2 cutlass and rogue's poison blade (before standard arena). Weapons for the most part provide good tempo unless they are poorly statted to address different minion health breakpoints. Light's justice is just as valuable or more valuable than candleshot as it allows for an extra swing or ping effect. Arena is generally about tempo and value trades so light's justice is better than candle shot if face damage is irrelevant which is usually the case in arena. One must have the board in order to snowball it and an extra durability is important.
I completely agree(please also format better, not just a wall text.) Why skip an entire class that has weapons in the basic set? All weapons in HS are for the most part, above average, otherwise they wouldn't be played in comparisson to spells for initiative. Also, don't base the value of cards, mana and tempo and other things on cards that came out in later sets. With that kind of logic, the power level of hearthstone always stays the same, but older sets get weaker, which makes no sense. I can see why you can see the classic set is weaker compared to the past, but that's not because the power level is the same, but because the power level has increased with expansions. Say in which format you want to compare weapons in. You move from objective measurements to subjective ones in a flash, the current meta, or any meta, is what makes a weapon viable or not, but it doesn't reduce it's value objectively. I'd suggest you watch some Arena experts, Infinite Arena Players, talk about cards, because until patch 10.4, they had to look at each and every card and evaluate it in a vacuum, they had to actually give numerical value to the concepts of Tempo and others. The had written articles about those 4 years ago, and many of them are MtG limited format experts as well.
Butter At the moment Hunter has 5 weapons in Standard and 1 more in Wild, while Shaman has 4 weapons in Standard and 5 more in Wild. So you're very much right, the claim that Shaman isn't a weapon class is ridiculous
You should do a whole video assessing the 0/30 "minion" model. That's a very interesting way to look at it, and I'm having a hard time completely putting myself in that mind set. Love the video, can't wait to see more!
I think you missed on the investment value of weapons; as you’d recall it was somewhat common to just play a war axe on t2, and not swing, allowing you to use that “rockbiter effect” later without having to invest that mana on the turn you wanted the effect. The idea that you get to choose when the weapon comes down, and dole out its power in separate instances in a combination that you desire is another facet to weapons; they are an investment. You choose when and how to redeem that investment, at the cost of your life total (or just a durability for face), but it also allows your opponent to plan around your weapon.
In general, mana cost being lower is more important then any other part of a weapon, due to their increasing value over time. Because attacking into a minion damages your hero, it’s better to attack face, makeing weapons essentially agro tools in their core design. The main problem with war axe isn’t that it’s overcosted at the moment, the hunter weapon gets used in agro hunter with no secrets, it’s that no tempo warrior can use the weapon because it doesn’t fit the curve. In pirate warrior playing the weapon on 2 meant that you could immediately play minions that buffed it the next turn, vastly increasing its value and hitting your Opponent in the face for an extra 5 damage over the next couple of turns turning war axe into a weapon that delt a massive 11 damage by turn 4 while warrior was building a pirate board. The 1 attack weapons are better for clearing minions, hence why invulnerability is better then an extra durability.
Good video, it really clarifies much thing to me, but now i have 1 question: What is the factor that determines what permanent effect should be a "staff weapon" and another a "untouchable creature"?
Hello Penniless! I don't know if you read your comments, but here we go. Your channel was recommended to me after I watched a wowhobbs video. I watched the "why paladin is the best" and I just got stuck. The video was very well made, so I checked out some more of your videos. I ended up watching ALL of them. After having watched of all of your videos, I realized that every video you made was more wellmade than the one before. I just wanted to let you know that I really appreaciate your content and that I know you're going to blow up some day, because nobody makes this type of content of this quality and you're improving in every video. Have a nice day!
I might just be really slow but I was lost after the mention of power theory, I understood how it worked in the way cards are worth their mana but when he said it it all sounded so alien
Very interesting video, and it really is a shame that weapons aren't more common. At least, ones like Assassin's Blade and Spectral Cutlass, that gain value over turns. Now that you mention it, I think Acidic Swamp Ooze needs a bit of a step down in power. It's an on-tempo 3/2 (Which means It can trade with stuff like Spellbreaker if it lives long enough) that also completely annihilates your opponent's weapon for 2 mana. Now, originally the effect was niche enough that it wasn't really a problem. But now with all classes having at least one weapon and stuff like Spectral Cutlass being shunned despite having a really cool mechanic due to the threat of this card that literally anyone could have? I feel it needs a change. Okay, okay. I know it's a Basic card and nerfing it wouldn't be the best idea, especially considering how prevalent the Warlock and Mage weapons are. But Blizzard have been willing to nerf Basic cards before (War Axe, Innervate, Mind Control, Hunter's Mark...) and I do feel that Ooze does limit design space for really fun weapons that rely on not being removed for maximum effectiveness. Obviously stuff like Skull of Ma'ari is complete BS (Anything that can cheat out a Doomguard or Voidlord is.) and deserves to be painfully acidic'd, but I really like playing Burgle Rogue in Wild and I don't have the heart to use the weapon designed for it because of removal. like Swamp Ooze that renders the entire thing inert. Granted, people run Harrison Jones instead, but that has mostly the same problem. Personally, I feel a good change to both cards would be to *Silence* the weapon, rather than outright destroy it. This leaves cards like Assassin's Blade still able to function for all 4 hits without having 0 counter to it. Coincidentally, this also completely shuts down any Kingsbane deck, but whether that's a bad thing is up to the Wild players. Anyway, *Silenceing* a weapon would still make problematic things like Skull of the Man'ari inert, but without making weapons like Woecleaver, Gladiator's Longbow and Gorehowl *completely* irrelevant. I'm just spitballing ideas here, though. Right, I also really liked your video and I'm glad that I got recommended this.Enjoy my sub!
I really like your idea, but the problem is that weapons like Arcanite Reaper wouldn't have any way to be counterd, which could lead to a very boring weapon aggro warrior meta. (But wtf do I know?)
I think Arcarnite Reaper would need to be a 4/2 if it was nerfed in the future. I was mostly trying to focus on weapons that aren't run at all due to the threat of Ooze and how weapons with actual effects *can't* be run due to how common it is.
You'd think so, but because it's a 5/2 weapon that (likely) is being swung the turn it's played, there's _already_ a cheap weapon removal tech that is conveniently in standard that would work for it: Bloodsail Corsair's battlecry of "Remove 1 durability". This would put an actual choice for what type of weapon removal you want. Do you want to silence key weapon effects, gain options by drawing off a weapon, or gut the amount of damage early weapons are allowed to do?
Let me pull an addendum on Kingsbane: It's good, but I am sick of seeing it. Cause I can't get rid of it, either having to hope Gnomeferatu burns it or that I can gut my opponent's tempo before I gut them. I faced a variant which had Alextraza for recovery/agression. I was appalled.
I've always thought weapons as rush minions actually. (In control decks) let's say, fiery war axe kills a 3/3 in the turn it is played and 4/2 in the next turn. So it is a 3/7 rush minion for 3 mana, which deals 7 damage to your own face. (Not even mentioning it has perma stealth, since your opponent cant remove your weapon %90 of the time) Way better than pit lord as it is, think about how broken the card was for 2 mana. And if you're playing playing pirate warrior, it has charge, not rush and most broken buff(upgrade)...
If you were to think of your hero as a 0 cost minion that has deathrattle lose the game, then the "Immune to all effects that target minions" would instead say "Immune to all effects that affect minions". If it was just targeted, then we'd see a lot of devolved heroes and such.
I still can't understand why Waraxe was made a plain 3/2 for three, instead of 3/2 with a small effect like other 3/2 for 3 weapons (for example 3/2 for three, cost 1 less if you have one or more damaged minions on the board)
I think a point not covered very thoroughly is the idea of the class the weapon belongs too and the associated goal. I think gladiators longbow would be a reasonable weapon in Warrior because it would work well in control warrior builds, maybe not in this meta but when that archetype is seeing play. The reason its so bad in hunter is because hunter wants to go face and wants to do it quickly, and the immunity of longbow doesn't help with that, so the 2 mana extra you pay for it in comparison to arcanite reaper just makes it slower and less useful for that specific class. Another good example is fools bane, comparable to assassins blade with the added stipulation of being able to attack multiple times a turn but also not going face, which was fine, because warrior doesn't always want to go face but it does want to clear the board. Whereas the exact same weapon in hunter would probably see very little play.
I just thought out that maybe this change would revive fiery war axe, after you attack u get +1attack, because of the 3 mana cost, the devs said that we run a lot of 3 mana 3/2 weapons just for the stats woth no text, maybe adding this little thing will help a bit, ehat are your opinions ?
theoretically, but its better to smooth out curves or for tempo. also, many turn 2/3/4 minions have good stats or swing effects, so that makes the coin on turn one worse in practise
What about weapons like ashbringer, frostmourn, or the weapon from Uther of the ebonblade? How do you compare those weapons to the weapon cards we have available?
Weapons compete with each other for space much more than other cards, because you can only have one active at a time and they both rely on the same limited resource of hero health. Having "Too Many Weapons" is a much bigger problem than "Too Many Minions" or "Too Many Spells." This is the real reason why King's Defender was considered a bad card when it came out; it simply couldn't compete with Fiery Waraxe. Put that same card in Shaman, and it'd probably be a staple. Even a somewhat under-tuned weapon would be auto-include in the non-weapon classes, simply because of the lack of competition. Weapons really start competing for space after the third, which means that classes only have room for 2 or 3 really usable weapons.
Soooo...how does the paladin legendary weapon fit into that equation? It seems to be the only legendary weapon that didn't show up even once in this video.
Valanyr is a strange concept, unlike the other weapons itbeing destroyed doesnt do much, the only worry you might have is a silence, which to be fair with cubelocks and wall druids is very high. Stat wise its a 6 mana 4/2 that in most paladins decks would result in a too slow 6 turn considering the fact the turn 6 is a crucial turn this days, a warlock can dark pact a lackey, a mage can play aluneth, druid just has the chance to ramp up or spiteful. Considering you would need to use your turn 6 and 7 to attack you would get value from the deathrattle on the same turn 7 but that does limit your options too cause if you dont play the valanyr minion you re losing value which is the reason you re playing this card in the first place, imagine being forced to spellbreaker or ooze just cause you have valanyr on that, of course thats worse case scenario but it limits you in anycase. I could see it working on some meme otk paladin like a valanyr on a leeroy into a face manipulator or maybe the insane value of a doppelgangester valanyr but in the end those are just memes decks and i feel like he didnt mention valanyr because more than a weapon its more of a handbuff so it would be hard to fit the concept in here
I think Valanyr is actualy a pretty straigh forward concept, kinda like Ashbringer. Tirion holds the Ashbringer, when he dies, your Hero picks it up. Valanyr is the reverse. You have a weapon, you use it, and your minion ''picks it up''. And then it goes to the Tirion-Ashbringer concept. At least thematically. Valanyr is 4 damage the turn you play it, then it's another 4 damage, and the minion it buffs, you can play it whenever you think is appropriate. Valanyr was played pre-nerf Corridor Creeper and Patches and the other ones. The problem with Valanyr is that you take too much face damage because of soo many repeated uses. And don't use current meta standards to compare weapons objectively, metas come and go. And Vinecleaver is a 4/3 for 7 but is pretty insane and Silver Sword is a 3/4 for 8. Both of these see play in the Odd/Even decks and are insane in arena, meaning their power level is actually quite high. Ever heard of initiative? The HS concept of initiative is basically you taking the lead in some way on your turn. Innate initiative is pretty intuitive, spells that deal damage, minions with battlecries, taunt can be like initiative since taunt reads as: ''Your opponent is forced to interact with this minion.'' All weapons, traditional ones, have innate initiative, to make it even simpler, they actually DO something the turn you play them, they remove an enemy minion for example. Most weapons usually have 2 charges or more, otherwise it wouldn't make sense to play them over spells. Weapons in hearthstone are insane, even with the Acidic Ooze in the Basic Set. They give you card advantage, they do that by using the two charges on minions to remove them, so killing 2 minions with Arcanite Reaper is +1 card advantage, since you used 1 copy of Reaper to kill 2 minions of the opponent, doesn't matter if big or small. They give Tempo, which for the purposes of HS is stats on the board. An Arcanite Reaper can kill a Chillwind Yeti the turn you play it, so you used 5 stats to remove 9 stats, I put this very simply it isn't exactly how it is. And they can also be Face Damage, meaning they can used as Burn. A Fiery War Axe can become a 3 mana FIreball over 2 turns if you swing face, an Arcanite Reaper a Pyroblast. The difference really is what you choose to do with the charges. Weapons with text are of course either strictly better or either go in niche decks, but for the most part, weapons in HS can be insane. Another problem with Valanyr I just realised is, if the game goes on long enough for you to get 3-4+ Valanyr uses, the game has go on for too long and Palladin doesn't have the same infinite card advantage classes like Druid, Priest, Rogue and Warrior have. At one point, their deck WILL run out. So they can't afford to prolong the game the same way these classes can.
Valanyr was working decently in buffing paladin deck. I prefer wombo combo decks (big beasts hunter, spiteful decks etc), so valanyr was interesting option for me. If you manage full combo (saronite/dopple/dopple/saronite), it just gives insane minions - from one weapon going to 18 weapons to last duo, creating 2 saronites with 74/35. Usually didnt get to that point, ended up with around 30 bonus damage spread on those minions. With dopplegangers gone and so many silences in play, weapon lost its strenght and is unplayable. One owl counters big chunk of your investment (unless you manage to drop it to your saronites)
Talk3rs 74/35 is good but I think a 331 attack charge lifesteal is better (wild val' anyr with spiritsinger umbra is my favourite deck along with deathrattle value hunter)
Actually, fiery war axe is now a twin to shaman's axe, since they both cost a net 3 mana, have a total of 5 in stats and can do 6 damage over their lifespan, assuming no weapon buffs get played.
I was scroling through youtube one day and then i found a gem of a chanel. I was suprised this qality content doesent have more subscribers an i hope more peepole will find you in the future.
This is how I quickly do your power theory: Take any non-weapon card and ADD the stats together (not multiply) then average or /2 (round up) to get what the card should cost. So for weapons at 6 min into this video for fiery war axe multiply 3 * 2 = 6/2 means that fiery war axe should cost 3 mana. At 2 mana every warrior was using it because it was an under cost card. This works for more cards too. Arcanite Reaper 5 * 2 =10/2. This does cost 5. Every key word adds one to the stats. So take Zilliax for example, again stats of 3 +2 + 5 key words = 10/2 Zilliax does cost 5. So giggling inventor: (2+1) + (1+2) + (1+2) = 9 in stats plus 2 key words twice or *2 then 9 + (2*2) or 9 + 4 = 13/2, the card now does cost 7. Now it costs too much and is unplayable. (Really should be, 6.5 but there is no half of a mana in Hearthstone). Damage spells should cost 1 point per damage while any healing should cost half the amount listed (rounded down - mostly because if you can heal, a character isn't always damaged and you cannot add stats by healing). (We also note that Battlecry by itself does not count as a key word). So fireball does 6 damage it should cost 6. (Shh, don't tell anyone the card will get nerfed and cost more than 4 mana). Then Priestess of Elune 5+4 = 9 in stats + (4/2) or 9 + 2 = 11/2 this card does cost 6. (Again it really should cost 5.5 but Hearthstone doesn't do half of a mana). This card is a bit over cost and not likely playable. Lets try Lifedrinker 3 + 3 = 6 in stats + 3 damage + (3/2 (rounded down or just 1)) then 6 + 3 + 1 = 10 the card should cost 5. Undervalued card at 4 mana thus a playable card. Any card that draws a card including discover, put, place, add, or whatever is used so you get another card into your hand adds 2 to the stats. So Novice Engineer: 1 + 1 = 2 in stats, Draw a card +2 then 2+2=4/2. The card does cost 2. Buffs work the same way: Blessing of might +3/2. This card should cost 2. So this card is undervalued at 1 mana. Blessing of Kings adds 4 + 4 = 8/2 the card does cost 4. Fungalmancer: 2+2 =4 in stats + 4 + 4 in buffs. So 4+4+4= 12/2 the card should cost 6. Thus at 5 mana its a playable card but only if it buffs two other minions, of course. Not as sure about AOE but taking the amount of AOE damage and multiply it by 2 might work. Consecration 2 damage to all enemies *2. This card does cost 4. Flamestrike 4 damage to all enemies minions *2. This card should cost 8. At 7 mana this is an under cost card. Fan of Knives 1 damage to all enemies minions * 2 plus draw a card +2. Then (1*2)+2 or 2 +2. This card should cost 4. At 3 mana this is an under cost card. Lets try Holy Nova: 2 damage to all enemies *2 plus heal 2/2 or (2*2)+1. This card does cost 5.
If only he knew how strong twig was now. Still countered by removal, but in a class that armors up and doesnt mind the requirement. Also heavily surprised he didnt go in depth into the heal/armor aspect of weapons as much. Touched on, but not fully dove into, which really separates paladins and warriors from rogues and shamans as far as what weapons can work or not
Longbow is amazing for arena, as the name would suggest. Deadmans Even Woecleaver is the sleeper warrior deck. W/ charged Dino's and garrosh that deck easily pumps out 20 damage and 20 Mana worth of stuff several turns in a row. wins against many top decks. 65% against cube lock and 70v odd pally for me currently. Shudder is more even obviously being late deck but I often combo before he does. Woecleaver ends games, fast.
Best designed weapons in my book are Rhokdelar, Gorehowl, Eaglehorn, candleshot and Truesilver. Close contenders are Silver sword and Vinecleaver. I believe kingsbane is bad design in the long run, esp Wild format.
Kingsbane is amazing. It works in so many types of deck in wild. You could make a mill deck, a weapon buffing deck, recreate something along the lines of Oil Rogue, and it means your buff cards give you more value. (Sadly, with the leeching poison nerf, it's less value)
But I was able to win multiple games with gladiator's longbow in my spell hunter deck D: When I don't have a beast on the board, or a way to generate a beast, kill command would not take down a 5-7 health enemy. But with the Longbow, no one expects that I have a way to deal 5 damage to the face whenever I have an empty board. Of course, it sucks with taunt in the way, but longbow has been proven to win be games at times to the point I'm honestly hesitant to switch it out of my deck.
Kings def vs eagle horn Eagle horn is better not necessarily because of its unique special effect, but because of the class it belongs to. Hunter is a more minion based aggressive class than warrior, and would like to stick a minion onto an empty or light board as much as possible, because doings increases the chances that it will be able to go face or trade actively on the following turn. Warrior doesn't care as much about that sense it generally wants to simply stall to the mid game and work for an advantage then. A 3/2 weapon for hunter is better than for warrior since hunter doesn't have to spend the mana to remove a 3 health minion and can focus all of its mana onto playing a minion(s) -this is also why warriors hero power so much more in the early turns than hunters. Lights justice vs candle shot Again, completely comes down to class; hunter could care less about immunity for the most part. A one attack weapon is way more useful for hunter than paladin since hunters have very few efficient ways to contest one health minions, and Paladins can do so with merely their hero power. And the g longbow comparisons are pretty obvious. A 7 mana arcanite reaper is just shit
To be fair, card power is very subjective because of two very important factors: The meta and the class. The meta determines the worth of a card and in extend, an entire deck. For example, back in late KoTFT, EVERYONE was running a skulking gheist so, cards like Jade Idol and in extent, Jade druid, despite being generally super strong, were crushed by the meta. I see this currently while playing my Tess deck. Even though im a wild player, I only play this deck in standar because there are waaaaaay less rogues in standar so the meta favors my deck, since it's super weaker vs rogue Which leads to my second factor. The class. It's not about what card you add. It's about what card you leave out. Every card in your deck takes a spot that could be filled by something else and thus, you try to optimize every spot according to your strategy. However not all classes have the same tools. This is why hunter weapon X is better than warrior weapon Y. It's not the card on it's own, it's what else you can substitute it with. Also, one mana difference may seem minuscule but it really isn't, especially in the first few turns, 1 mana can decide board control.
I actually thoroughly enjoyed that you took the time to introduce your topic. However, for multiple viewings it can kind of be a pain to re-listen to the intro part. Personally, I suggest adding a timestamp for when you get to the topic for your fans who know already (i.e. when you said, "Let's begin"). Idk if people agree but I think it adds a convenience to your subscibers.
I dnno but im feeling creative. I woke up one day and thought - hey u know wtd be cool? If we had a kung fu druid. So. I have a card idea. Ysera the Scarlet Nightmare. 6 mana. 4 atk 6 health Dragon Start of Game : If your deck contains no more then 5 minions, your hero gains 15 armour and a permanent +1 (or +2 if its too under powered) atk.
forgive me for being too lazy to watch your videos, but here's my theory 1/1 for you (summon a 1/1 or give a minion +2 health) = -1 for opponent (deal 1 damage) = draw half a card deathrattles mean halve the value for the deathrattle effect, random effects means take the average and subtract 1 sometimes, combo/conditional effects means take the average of active/inactive, card rarity often means -0, -1, -2, or -3 to (mana) cost (basic, common/rare, epic, legendary), hand size is usually 4, and there are usually 2 minions on board. taunt is 0.5 value, charge is attack/2 value, divine shield is attack/2 value weapons are usually damage dealt / 2 = stats. it's basically deal x damage and take x damage y times, where x is attack and y is durability. old fiery war axe was like a 2 mana 3/3, current fiery war axe is a 3 mana 3/3. which is why fiery war axe and arcanite reaper aren't played in odd warrior. blessing of might is 1 mana give a minion 3 attack and deal 1.5 damage. 3 stats is equal to 1.5 value, so that's 3 value. indeed we see it in odd paladin. rockbiter weapon is deal 3 damage and take 3 damage. but maybe we add a bit of value since we get to choose which unit takes damage. maybe 2 cost and 2 value. before, when it cost 1, it was normal value, but now it's not. assassin's blade is 6 value (durability*attack/2) and 5 cost, which is normal. gorehowl has 14 value and costs 7. but sucks hitting face, which probably balances it out. blood razor is 2 value from stats + 2 value from first whirlwind + 2/1 value from second whirlwind = 5 value at 4 cost, which is pretty balanced, assuming whirlwind is 2 value. twig of the world tree is 5 value from deathrattle + 5 damage and take 5 damage, which is 7.5 value at 5 mana, which is only slightly below the curve for legendaries. whenever effects on weapons probably count the effect once. warlock's weapon is a non-random ancestor's call that doesn't summon a unit for your opponent, so assuming ancestor's call is 5 value, warlock's weapon has 5+1+2.5 value = 8.5 value at a cost of 5, which is about normal. warrior's weapon is 3/3 stats and recruit, which is 4.5 + 7 value (assuming recruit is 7 value) = 11.5 value. at a cost of 8, this is about normal. hunter weapon is probably 4 value from stats + draw maybe 6 "half" the time = about 10 value, at a cost of 7 this is about normal runespear's stats are equal to tortollan primalist, which probably explains why it's not played, even if blizzard may consider both to be somehow balanced. as for mage and priest and rogue weapons.. I dunno. /shrug
Uhm, woecleaver didn't not see play because it was too slow; it didn't see play because the restriction was greater than the reward. If woecleaver only pulled 8+ cost minions it would be absolutely stupid in control warrior. A deck restriction effect is something much too complicated to be summed up with simply "too slow" and "too random".
weapons are just spells with a downside. weapons are spells with some amount of damage burst, but they have a slow up curve and they result in you taking damage. immune weapons are just pure damage, the candle bow is arcane misses. "a cost of 2" a card is valued at 2 not 1. ie a 0 mana wisp has a value of 2. which roughly speaking is why palladin guy is a 1/1 silverhand recruit. "is attack * durability = value" it is close. i'd use attack * 1/2 of durability though. which is why rogue hero power is 2 mana for a 1/2. it depends on the meta, but if oozes are common you want to have a 2 durability weapon. weapons are a hand check. and the likelihood a hand has an ooze goes up exponentially if the meta calls for one. if it calls for 2, then it depends on turn number the liklihood of having an ooze. this is a emta ballance point. weapons have to be weak enough that oozes are optional. and if weapons get adequately above curve for their mana value people will be more and more prone towards runnign the weapon, and thus a response of ooze. to design around this, while this is kinda bad, they would need to create a number of 'swamp slurpers' which have an on board ability of negating ooze battlecry or, make your weapon immune during your opponent's turn. another design direction they are going towards which is more healthy than ooze, is to have ooze reduce durability instead of destroying weapons, this shifts meta for weapons more towards long weapons. FYI all basic hero powers are ballanced to be worth 1 extra card in hand. specifically it is a design paradigm of not wanting players to ever be completely unable to do something. "assassin's blade is terrible" it isn't terrible it just isn't good. it is a 5 mana deal 3 twice, sometimes get another 2 attacks. it is a fireball, at cost of health, cost of turns, but you also get multiple targets potentially. reminder, if ooze shrank duribility instead of destroying weapons, then you would count on higher durability weapons getting more than 2 attacks, but as it stands. you get roughyl 2 no matter the durability, due to ooze sidestepping it. "lower durability weapons win out" by default, but special effects overwhelm that. like twig of the world tree. "kingsbane is good" OHHO. no. it is the worst card blizz ever put effort into. kingsbane would have been decent if it took any buffs to any previously played weapons.
OMFG i was thinking of the 0 30 minion explanation thinking: "imma leave a comment with that explanation" and then you slam me with my own idea. It is important to note blessing of might would also have to give charge for it to be compared to a weapon.
Also, I wish to point out that weapons do also have that slight problem of taunt getting in the way. I don't think you brought that up like, at all. Also kingsbane is way too good.
Yo, Peniniless am i a good card "analyst" if i think Millhouse is the best card made in the whole game. it has a backfire it, also has a huge tempo and alot of dmg
T A S D I N G O YEAAAAAAH
There is another reason as to why you fairly often don't get to use all your weapon charges: You can only equip one weapon at a time. Sometimes you draw too many of them, and it turns out that if you don't waste that one charge on your fiery war axe right now, you won't be able to have the Death's Bite deathrattle ready next turn when you want to combo with grim patron or clear the next wave of silver hand recruits.
This is only one example, but it happens often enough that you have to take it into account when you're designing a deck. Too many weapons and you'll end up losing tons of value, constantly having to override weapons to make the best play/keep up with the tempo.
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On another note I'd like to disagree with "light's justice is bad but candleshot is good".
Candleshot saw some play in spell hunter, mostly. It's easier to get a slot in a deck that can't run minions. Not only that, hunter, like other classes such as priest, suffers a lot to deal 1 damage to the board, but unlike priest hunter doesn't have as many comeback mechanics, if any. So for hunter it is super valuable to have a tool that helps controlling the board early on without spending precious recurring minion damage. Protecting your huffer for one turn might be the difference between lethal 5 turns down the line or you opponent stabilising.
Paladin has dudes to help with those pesky x/1's that could potentially kill your valued knife juggler or whatever else you're protecting, so it is natural that light's justice isn't as important. HOWEVER, I'd like to point out that light's justice isn't a bad card, by any metrics other than "does it see play in constructed?". It's insane in arena, helping your smaller minions to trade up and establish board control. Don't underestimate 4 damage for one mana, that's a heck lot of tempo. Hell, muster for battle is one of the best cards ever printed, probably the best 3 drop, and don't get me wrong, 3 dudes is insane, but light's justice also plays a part in carrying that card. It's not uncommon for it to finish off or even single-handedly kill 4 minions in total... this is some serious card advantage we're talking about here.
All in all I don't think comparing weapons to ones from other classes is very productive. Some classes have innate strategies they can't deviate too much from, like hunter... so what good would gorehowl do in the hands of rexxar? You have rogues buffing their weapons, so could you just give them light's justice? Not to mention that some classes can heal, others can't... would truesilver champion be insane in rogue? Idk, maybe not, but it's hard to tell and I don't think you can just say spectral cutlass is bad because truesilver is better (btw I actually though cutlass was a lot worst than it actually is after playing with it, but I don't think it's constructed material still).
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TL;DR: You can't equip two weapons at a time and light's justice can provide some serious card advantage for a one mana card.
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The design space for weapons gets crippled by the availability of very cheap weapon removal. Everyone owns two copies of Acidic Swamp Ooze, and the fact that you can destroy your opponent's weapon without sacrificing ANY tempo at all really limits the type of weapons that can be played. It also makes them hard to balance because the only weapons that will see play are those that are good enough to warrant a deck slot with just one swing.
I wish Blizzard would make weapon removal an actual tech choice for decks instead of just a 2 drop that you throw in when there's a lot of weapons around. Things like Harrison Jones should be the norm for weapon removal, not Ooze. Make it more expensive and exact more of a cost on the card in terms of stats, but with a higher payoff.
There's a ton of unused design space for weapons, but it's all crowded out by a 2 mana 3/2
Card games being overeager with the counter mechanics can really cripple fun, I get the same feeling in Eternal, what's the point of putting interesting effects creatures in a deck when the opponent can just snuff them out with a perfect 3/3 flyer for 3 with a silence battle cry.
Ooze in HS or giving too many board clears to a class/color can feel the same as well.
havign different sorf of weapon removal is better becuase you can choose which ever suits your deck, plus hvaing a weapon removal is also unreliable since it is only 1 card in your deck and even though ooze doesnt look likea bad card it is very bad to include in your deck, so you are actually paying a price for it since most classes do not have weapons anyway and they are dead in most matchups.
there really arent that many ozzes right now
Pure removal is the problem. Even Harrison is a problem for high cost long term weapons (even worse couse of the draw effect). To fix this it would be better to have cards that counter weapons via lowering the weapons use amount.
The 2 mana ooze has too high of stats for its cost to effect ratio, and plus all of the ran weapon removals are in standard, so playing a weapon (even daggering for a rogue) is a gamble that you hope that they don’t have any removal
the only weapon i need is echo penguinlock
thanks for the meme deck m8
actual game design principles, interesting topics, Zero Punctuation style graphics, well, color me subscribed.
Something that always confused me was why Kings Defender is considered a bad card even after the nerf of Fiery War Axe. After its nerf FWA has the exact same stats as KD. Both cost 3 mana, have 3 attack, and 2 durability. The only difference being of course that KD has the added card text saying, Battleecry: gain 1 durability if you control a taunt minion. Which is a direct upgrade from post nerf FWA which is still considered a good/decent card, and sees play in a majority of warrior decks. The dilemma I see is why you wouldn't play KD over FWA, I mean at worst you are playing a FWA which is still a good card. And the condition isn't even that hard to meet, I can't really think of a deck in any class that doesn't run ANY taunt minions (especially with Tar Creeper running around). On paper it makes 0 sense.
Kings defender isnt bad if you have enough taunt minions in your deck. But if you arent playing quest warrior or something like that, you shouldnt play it, just as you wouldnt play fiery war axe.
Nobody denies that King's Defender is strictly better than post-nerf Fiery War Axe. 🙂 It's just that 3/2 weapons with conditional bonuses for 3 Mana only sometimes make the cut in Ranked. They're still great in Arena, for example.
KD was in the game at the same time as FWA at 2 mana. The reason it was bad is because you had to run KD over super broken 2 mana 3/2
KD isn't in standard. When it was, FWA was better and that's what everyone remembers.
Its sheer poor tempo... You want to play it turn 3, but without a turn 1/2 taunt it is irrelevant for the slot it takes.
Paladin has always been a tempo-based class and turn 1/2 taunts are rarely worth considering as they will be crushed by the 2 mana 3/2 tempo swing...
On paper it seems okay, in practice it is awful...
Rockbiter weapon isn’t for sure a 3/1 “weapon” you could give it to windfury minions/doomhammer, which would make it a 3/2 or in wild with mega windfury a 3/4
It wouldn't make it a 3/2 it would make it a 6/1 or a 12/1. Windfury is just a fancy way of dealing double damage most of the time. Of course windfury could be used to get through a minion and keep going and doomhammer takes durability one swing at a time, but the reason durability matters so much is because you can't use the value immediately and you leave yourself open to weapon removal.
Give us a tutorial on how to install the minecraft fortnite mod
Agree
This channel is severely underrated
I’d have done the Shaman Weapon so that you Discover a Spell and get it to your hand with a certain cost reduction. That way, the first swing can already be counted as a value move if the discovered spells are good
I am a bit concerned that Shaman was not included in your analysis over a seemingly personal vendetta, and urge you to reconsider. (1:55) - Written out under Rogue, Warrior, Hunter, and Paladin is "Shaman doesn't count". What does this even mean? No reason given to why Shaman is not included. It's incredibly ridiculous that you can just seemingly throw this class aside and yet reference it's cards: Rockbiter Weapon (5:01 and again at 5:21) & Jade Claws (11:15). Recognize that Blizzard makes weapons for this class and even "nerfs" those weapons, some into oblivion. Remember when Shaman had Spirit Claws? A 1 mana 1 attack 3 durability weapon that got +2 attack when you have +spell damage on your side of the board (generally from a minion or Shaman hero power: Wrath of Air Totem). Not fun times...
Maybe you didn't want to have to go into detail about the Shaman's (arguably bad) overload mechanic, seeing as there are multiple weapons that have overload. I find it to be over-stepping when you reference Jade Claws and Rockbiter Weapon in your video but refuse to acknowledge Shaman as a class that has weapons for whatever reason.
You can't just not include Shaman while still including Shaman; I think I made my point pretty clear.
One last note:
Please google "acidic" and press the speaker icon next to it to hear how it is properly pronounced; it is not "A-SEE-DICK", it's "UH-SID-ICK" (7:26)
Not trying to belittle you or anything like that, just trying to correct a small mistake that I see being made.
I did enjoy your video overall and I appreciate the time you took to establish your own thoughts alongside the simplified yet detailed explanation of just a small portion a vastly complicated card game.
I’m just saw one for your earlier videos and I must say I really like this channel and it’s content, nice editing as well
Edit: Spelling
Shaman doesn't count? Looking at the wild collection they have quite a few any many have been extensively used such as spirit claws, jade claws, powermace and doom hammer. Each of those weapons have been crucial in meta decks. I don't agree when you said which weapons are good and bad because in arena all weapons are valuable barring warrior's 0/2 cutlass and rogue's poison blade (before standard arena). Weapons for the most part provide good tempo unless they are poorly statted to address different minion health breakpoints. Light's justice is just as valuable or more valuable than candleshot as it allows for an extra swing or ping effect. Arena is generally about tempo and value trades so light's justice is better than candle shot if face damage is irrelevant which is usually the case in arena. One must have the board in order to snowball it and an extra durability is important.
I completely agree(please also format better, not just a wall text.)
Why skip an entire class that has weapons in the basic set? All weapons in HS are for the most part, above average, otherwise they wouldn't be played in comparisson to spells for initiative.
Also, don't base the value of cards, mana and tempo and other things on cards that came out in later sets. With that kind of logic, the power level of hearthstone always stays the same, but older sets get weaker, which makes no sense.
I can see why you can see the classic set is weaker compared to the past, but that's not because the power level is the same, but because the power level has increased with expansions.
Say in which format you want to compare weapons in. You move from objective measurements to subjective ones in a flash, the current meta, or any meta, is what makes a weapon viable or not, but it doesn't reduce it's value objectively.
I'd suggest you watch some Arena experts, Infinite Arena Players, talk about cards, because until patch 10.4, they had to look at each and every card and evaluate it in a vacuum, they had to actually give numerical value to the concepts of Tempo and others. The had written articles about those 4 years ago, and many of them are MtG limited format experts as well.
Butter At the moment Hunter has 5 weapons in Standard and 1 more in Wild, while Shaman has 4 weapons in Standard and 5 more in Wild. So you're very much right, the claim that Shaman isn't a weapon class is ridiculous
you need more subs, so much more effort than other hs videos.
You should do a whole video assessing the 0/30 "minion" model. That's a very interesting way to look at it, and I'm having a hard time completely putting myself in that mind set.
Love the video, can't wait to see more!
I think you missed on the investment value of weapons; as you’d recall it was somewhat common to just play a war axe on t2, and not swing, allowing you to use that “rockbiter effect” later without having to invest that mana on the turn you wanted the effect. The idea that you get to choose when the weapon comes down, and dole out its power in separate instances in a combination that you desire is another facet to weapons; they are an investment. You choose when and how to redeem that investment, at the cost of your life total (or just a durability for face), but it also allows your opponent to plan around your weapon.
In general, mana cost being lower is more important then any other part of a weapon, due to their increasing value over time. Because attacking into a minion damages your hero, it’s better to attack face, makeing weapons essentially agro tools in their core design. The main problem with war axe isn’t that it’s overcosted at the moment, the hunter weapon gets used in agro hunter with no secrets, it’s that no tempo warrior can use the weapon because it doesn’t fit the curve. In pirate warrior playing the weapon on 2 meant that you could immediately play minions that buffed it the next turn, vastly increasing its value and hitting your Opponent in the face for an extra 5 damage over the next couple of turns turning war axe into a weapon that delt a massive 11 damage by turn 4 while warrior was building a pirate board. The 1 attack weapons are better for clearing minions, hence why invulnerability is better then an extra durability.
Good video, it really clarifies much thing to me, but now i have 1 question: What is the factor that determines what permanent effect should be a "staff weapon" and another a "untouchable creature"?
Great video! You just earned yourself a new subscriber!
man im loving theory vids lol binging them hard. keep it up!
Hello Penniless! I don't know if you read your comments, but here we go. Your channel was recommended to me after I watched a wowhobbs video. I watched the "why paladin is the best" and I just got stuck. The video was very well made, so I checked out some more of your videos. I ended up watching ALL of them. After having watched of all of your videos, I realized that every video you made was more wellmade than the one before. I just wanted to let you know that I really appreaciate your content and that I know you're going to blow up some day, because nobody makes this type of content of this quality and you're improving in every video. Have a nice day!
Can you discuss the warlock tax?
I might just be really slow but I was lost after the mention of power theory, I understood how it worked in the way cards are worth their mana but when he said it it all sounded so alien
Very interesting video, and it really is a shame that weapons aren't more common. At least, ones like Assassin's Blade and Spectral Cutlass, that gain value over turns.
Now that you mention it, I think Acidic Swamp Ooze needs a bit of a step down in power. It's an on-tempo 3/2 (Which means It can trade with stuff like Spellbreaker if it lives long enough) that also completely annihilates your opponent's weapon for 2 mana.
Now, originally the effect was niche enough that it wasn't really a problem. But now with all classes having at least one weapon and stuff like Spectral Cutlass being shunned despite having a really cool mechanic due to the threat of this card that literally anyone could have? I feel it needs a change.
Okay, okay. I know it's a Basic card and nerfing it wouldn't be the best idea, especially considering how prevalent the Warlock and Mage weapons are. But Blizzard have been willing to nerf Basic cards before (War Axe, Innervate, Mind Control, Hunter's Mark...) and I do feel that Ooze does limit design space for really fun weapons that rely on not being removed for maximum effectiveness. Obviously stuff like Skull of Ma'ari is complete BS (Anything that can cheat out a Doomguard or Voidlord is.) and deserves to be painfully acidic'd, but I really like playing Burgle Rogue in Wild and I don't have the heart to use the weapon designed for it because of removal. like Swamp Ooze that renders the entire thing inert.
Granted, people run Harrison Jones instead, but that has mostly the same problem. Personally, I feel a good change to both cards would be to *Silence* the weapon, rather than outright destroy it. This leaves cards like Assassin's Blade still able to function for all 4 hits without having 0 counter to it. Coincidentally, this also completely shuts down any Kingsbane deck, but whether that's a bad thing is up to the Wild players.
Anyway, *Silenceing* a weapon would still make problematic things like Skull of the Man'ari inert, but without making weapons like Woecleaver, Gladiator's Longbow and Gorehowl *completely* irrelevant. I'm just spitballing ideas here, though.
Right, I also really liked your video and I'm glad that I got recommended this.Enjoy my sub!
I really like your idea, but the problem is that weapons like Arcanite Reaper wouldn't have any way to be counterd, which could lead to a very boring weapon aggro warrior meta. (But wtf do I know?)
I think Arcarnite Reaper would need to be a 4/2 if it was nerfed in the future. I was mostly trying to focus on weapons that aren't run at all due to the threat of Ooze and how weapons with actual effects *can't* be run due to how common it is.
Interesting.
You'd think so, but because it's a 5/2 weapon that (likely) is being swung the turn it's played, there's _already_ a cheap weapon removal tech that is conveniently in standard that would work for it: Bloodsail Corsair's battlecry of "Remove 1 durability". This would put an actual choice for what type of weapon removal you want. Do you want to silence key weapon effects, gain options by drawing off a weapon, or gut the amount of damage early weapons are allowed to do?
But puting a Bloodsail Corsair in your deck is never gonna be good ;(
Let me pull an addendum on Kingsbane:
It's good, but I am sick of seeing it. Cause I can't get rid of it, either having to hope Gnomeferatu burns it or that I can gut my opponent's tempo before I gut them. I faced a variant which had Alextraza for recovery/agression. I was appalled.
I've always thought weapons as rush minions actually. (In control decks) let's say, fiery war axe kills a 3/3 in the turn it is played and 4/2 in the next turn. So it is a 3/7 rush minion for 3 mana, which deals 7 damage to your own face. (Not even mentioning it has perma stealth, since your opponent cant remove your weapon %90 of the time) Way better than pit lord as it is, think about how broken the card was for 2 mana. And if you're playing playing pirate warrior, it has charge, not rush and most broken buff(upgrade)...
If they should nerf anything it's spiteful, quest rogue and cubelock
You're videos are excellent and I'm glad I found your channel.
If you were to think of your hero as a 0 cost minion that has deathrattle lose the game, then the "Immune to all effects that target minions" would instead say "Immune to all effects that affect minions". If it was just targeted, then we'd see a lot of devolved heroes and such.
Great video. I leaned a lot
I still can't understand why Waraxe was made a plain 3/2 for three, instead of 3/2 with a small effect like other 3/2 for 3 weapons (for example 3/2 for three, cost 1 less if you have one or more damaged minions on the board)
Well damn explained... This is the 1st vid of urs i watched. Great Job.
Really love these videos keep these up!
I think a point not covered very thoroughly is the idea of the class the weapon belongs too and the associated goal. I think gladiators longbow would be a reasonable weapon in Warrior because it would work well in control warrior builds, maybe not in this meta but when that archetype is seeing play. The reason its so bad in hunter is because hunter wants to go face and wants to do it quickly, and the immunity of longbow doesn't help with that, so the 2 mana extra you pay for it in comparison to arcanite reaper just makes it slower and less useful for that specific class. Another good example is fools bane, comparable to assassins blade with the added stipulation of being able to attack multiple times a turn but also not going face, which was fine, because warrior doesn't always want to go face but it does want to clear the board. Whereas the exact same weapon in hunter would probably see very little play.
I just thought out that maybe this change would revive fiery war axe, after you attack u get +1attack, because of the 3 mana cost, the devs said that we run a lot of 3 mana 3/2 weapons just for the stats woth no text, maybe adding this little thing will help a bit, ehat are your opinions ?
Does this mean the coin is worth the most when you use it your first turn?
theoretically, but its better to smooth out curves or for tempo. also, many turn 2/3/4 minions have good stats or swing effects, so that makes the coin on turn one worse in practise
Keep making these!
What about weapons like ashbringer, frostmourn, or the weapon from Uther of the ebonblade? How do you compare those weapons to the weapon cards we have available?
What about doing a hearthstone theory about the overload mechanic?
4:44 Science in a nutshell
Weapons compete with each other for space much more than other cards, because you can only have one active at a time and they both rely on the same limited resource of hero health. Having "Too Many Weapons" is a much bigger problem than "Too Many Minions" or "Too Many Spells."
This is the real reason why King's Defender was considered a bad card when it came out; it simply couldn't compete with Fiery Waraxe. Put that same card in Shaman, and it'd probably be a staple. Even a somewhat under-tuned weapon would be auto-include in the non-weapon classes, simply because of the lack of competition.
Weapons really start competing for space after the third, which means that classes only have room for 2 or 3 really usable weapons.
Soooo...how does the paladin legendary weapon fit into that equation? It seems to be the only legendary weapon that didn't show up even once in this video.
Valanyr is a strange concept, unlike the other weapons itbeing destroyed doesnt do much, the only worry you might have is a silence, which to be fair with cubelocks and wall druids is very high.
Stat wise its a 6 mana 4/2 that in most paladins decks would result in a too slow 6 turn considering the fact the turn 6 is a crucial turn this days, a warlock can dark pact a lackey, a mage can play aluneth, druid just has the chance to ramp up or spiteful. Considering you would need to use your turn 6 and 7 to attack you would get value from the deathrattle on the same turn 7 but that does limit your options too cause if you dont play the valanyr minion you re losing value which is the reason you re playing this card in the first place, imagine being forced to spellbreaker or ooze just cause you have valanyr on that, of course thats worse case scenario but it limits you in anycase. I could see it working on some meme otk paladin like a valanyr on a leeroy into a face manipulator or maybe the insane value of a doppelgangester valanyr but in the end those are just memes decks and i feel like he didnt mention valanyr because more than a weapon its more of a handbuff so it would be hard to fit the concept in here
I think Valanyr is actualy a pretty straigh forward concept, kinda like Ashbringer.
Tirion holds the Ashbringer, when he dies, your Hero picks it up.
Valanyr is the reverse. You have a weapon, you use it, and your minion ''picks it up''. And then it goes to the Tirion-Ashbringer concept. At least thematically.
Valanyr is 4 damage the turn you play it, then it's another 4 damage, and the minion it buffs, you can play it whenever you think is appropriate. Valanyr was played pre-nerf Corridor Creeper and Patches and the other ones. The problem with Valanyr is that you take too much face damage because of soo many repeated uses. And don't use current meta standards to compare weapons objectively, metas come and go.
And Vinecleaver is a 4/3 for 7 but is pretty insane and Silver Sword is a 3/4 for 8. Both of these see play in the Odd/Even decks and are insane in arena, meaning their power level is actually quite high.
Ever heard of initiative? The HS concept of initiative is basically you taking the lead in some way on your turn. Innate initiative is pretty intuitive, spells that deal damage, minions with battlecries, taunt can be like initiative since taunt reads as: ''Your opponent is forced to interact with this minion.''
All weapons, traditional ones, have innate initiative, to make it even simpler, they actually DO something the turn you play them, they remove an enemy minion for example. Most weapons usually have 2 charges or more, otherwise it wouldn't make sense to play them over spells.
Weapons in hearthstone are insane, even with the Acidic Ooze in the Basic Set. They give you card advantage, they do that by using the two charges on minions to remove them, so killing 2 minions with Arcanite Reaper is +1 card advantage, since you used 1 copy of Reaper to kill 2 minions of the opponent, doesn't matter if big or small.
They give Tempo, which for the purposes of HS is stats on the board. An Arcanite Reaper can kill a Chillwind Yeti the turn you play it, so you used 5 stats to remove 9 stats, I put this very simply it isn't exactly how it is.
And they can also be Face Damage, meaning they can used as Burn. A Fiery War Axe can become a 3 mana FIreball over 2 turns if you swing face, an Arcanite Reaper a Pyroblast. The difference really is what you choose to do with the charges. Weapons with text are of course either strictly better or either go in niche decks, but for the most part, weapons in HS can be insane.
Another problem with Valanyr I just realised is, if the game goes on long enough for you to get 3-4+ Valanyr uses, the game has go on for too long and Palladin doesn't have the same infinite card advantage classes like Druid, Priest, Rogue and Warrior have. At one point, their deck WILL run out. So they can't afford to prolong the game the same way these classes can.
Valanyr was working decently in buffing paladin deck. I prefer wombo combo decks (big beasts hunter, spiteful decks etc), so valanyr was interesting option for me.
If you manage full combo (saronite/dopple/dopple/saronite), it just gives insane minions - from one weapon going to 18 weapons to last duo, creating 2 saronites with 74/35. Usually didnt get to that point, ended up with around 30 bonus damage spread on those minions.
With dopplegangers gone and so many silences in play, weapon lost its strenght and is unplayable. One owl counters big chunk of your investment (unless you manage to drop it to your saronites)
Talk3rs 74/35 is good but I think a 331 attack charge lifesteal is better (wild val' anyr with spiritsinger umbra is my favourite deck along with deathrattle value hunter)
Actually, fiery war axe is now a twin to shaman's axe, since they both cost a net 3 mana, have a total of 5 in stats and can do 6 damage over their lifespan, assuming no weapon buffs get played.
I was scroling through youtube one day and then i found a gem of a chanel. I was suprised this qality content doesent have more subscribers an i hope more peepole will find you in the future.
This is how I quickly do your power theory: Take any non-weapon card and ADD the stats together (not multiply) then average or /2 (round up) to get what the card should cost. So for weapons at 6 min into this video for fiery war axe multiply 3 * 2 = 6/2 means that fiery war axe should cost 3 mana. At 2 mana every warrior was using it because it was an under cost card. This works for more cards too.
Arcanite Reaper 5 * 2 =10/2. This does cost 5.
Every key word adds one to the stats. So take Zilliax for example, again stats of 3 +2 + 5 key words = 10/2 Zilliax does cost 5.
So giggling inventor: (2+1) + (1+2) + (1+2) = 9 in stats plus 2 key words twice or *2 then 9 + (2*2) or 9 + 4 = 13/2, the card now does cost 7. Now it costs too much and is unplayable. (Really should be, 6.5 but there is no half of a mana in Hearthstone).
Damage spells should cost 1 point per damage while any healing should cost half the amount listed (rounded down - mostly because if you can heal, a character isn't always damaged and you cannot add stats by healing). (We also note that Battlecry by itself does not count as a key word).
So fireball does 6 damage it should cost 6. (Shh, don't tell anyone the card will get nerfed and cost more than 4 mana).
Then Priestess of Elune 5+4 = 9 in stats + (4/2) or 9 + 2 = 11/2 this card does cost 6. (Again it really should cost 5.5 but Hearthstone doesn't do half of a mana). This card is a bit over cost and not likely playable.
Lets try Lifedrinker 3 + 3 = 6 in stats + 3 damage + (3/2 (rounded down or just 1)) then 6 + 3 + 1 = 10 the card should cost 5. Undervalued card at 4 mana thus a playable card.
Any card that draws a card including discover, put, place, add, or whatever is used so you get another card into your hand adds 2 to the stats. So Novice Engineer: 1 + 1 = 2 in stats, Draw a card +2 then 2+2=4/2. The card does cost 2.
Buffs work the same way: Blessing of might +3/2. This card should cost 2. So this card is undervalued at 1 mana.
Blessing of Kings adds 4 + 4 = 8/2 the card does cost 4.
Fungalmancer: 2+2 =4 in stats + 4 + 4 in buffs. So 4+4+4= 12/2 the card should cost 6. Thus at 5 mana its a playable card but only if it buffs two other minions, of course.
Not as sure about AOE but taking the amount of AOE damage and multiply it by 2 might work.
Consecration 2 damage to all enemies *2. This card does cost 4.
Flamestrike 4 damage to all enemies minions *2. This card should cost 8. At 7 mana this is an under cost card.
Fan of Knives 1 damage to all enemies minions * 2 plus draw a card +2. Then (1*2)+2 or 2 +2. This card should cost 4. At 3 mana this is an under cost card.
Lets try Holy Nova: 2 damage to all enemies *2 plus heal 2/2 or (2*2)+1. This card does cost 5.
If only he knew how strong twig was now. Still countered by removal, but in a class that armors up and doesnt mind the requirement.
Also heavily surprised he didnt go in depth into the heal/armor aspect of weapons as much. Touched on, but not fully dove into, which really separates paladins and warriors from rogues and shamans as far as what weapons can work or not
i thought that the mana cost for weapons is just it's attack stat with a durability of 2
(i.e 7 mana goes to a 7/2 weapon.)
Longbow is amazing for arena, as the name would suggest. Deadmans Even Woecleaver is the sleeper warrior deck. W/ charged Dino's and garrosh that deck easily pumps out 20 damage and 20 Mana worth of stuff several turns in a row. wins against many top decks. 65% against cube lock and 70v odd pally for me currently. Shudder is more even obviously being late deck but I often combo before he does. Woecleaver ends games, fast.
The hero being a 0/30 minion is exactly how I always see the game. I thought I was weird. I probably still am, lmao.
What about doomhammer ?
6:30 Tolarian Community College music kicks in - fellow MTG nerds will understand
Love your work aye keep it up
surprised you didnt mention the rise of cursed blade in wild.
blessing of might was never sub par when this video came out
The 0,30 imagine wailing soul + inner fire. A 30,30 on turn 5 that's basically immune until turn 5.
Best designed weapons in my book are Rhokdelar, Gorehowl, Eaglehorn, candleshot and Truesilver. Close contenders are Silver sword and Vinecleaver. I believe kingsbane is bad design in the long run, esp Wild format.
Kingsbane is amazing. It works in so many types of deck in wild. You could make a mill deck, a weapon buffing deck, recreate something along the lines of Oil Rogue, and it means your buff cards give you more value. (Sadly, with the leeching poison nerf, it's less value)
what do you think of Fool’s Bane?
well you can play a weapon turn 3 and use it turn 4 with spell instead you cant use the mana a turn before
and you forgot taunt
But I was able to win multiple games with gladiator's longbow in my spell hunter deck D: When I don't have a beast on the board, or a way to generate a beast, kill command would not take down a 5-7 health enemy. But with the Longbow, no one expects that I have a way to deal 5 damage to the face whenever I have an empty board.
Of course, it sucks with taunt in the way, but longbow has been proven to win be games at times to the point I'm honestly hesitant to switch it out of my deck.
I don't understand how any weapon that makes your hero immune can ever be considered bad.
"Weird concept, but tedious to explain" - But it's worth explaining, I don't thing it works as a comparsion.
4:26 if these “class” cards actually existed, priest could easily get a two turn lethal
Kings def vs eagle horn
Eagle horn is better not necessarily because of its unique special effect, but because of the class it belongs to. Hunter is a more minion based aggressive class than warrior, and would like to stick a minion onto an empty or light board as much as possible, because doings increases the chances that it will be able to go face or trade actively on the following turn. Warrior doesn't care as much about that sense it generally wants to simply stall to the mid game and work for an advantage then. A 3/2 weapon for hunter is better than for warrior since hunter doesn't have to spend the mana to remove a 3 health minion and can focus all of its mana onto playing a minion(s) -this is also why warriors hero power so much more in the early turns than hunters.
Lights justice vs candle shot
Again, completely comes down to class; hunter could care less about immunity for the most part. A one attack weapon is way more useful for hunter than paladin since hunters have very few efficient ways to contest one health minions, and Paladins can do so with merely their hero power.
And the g longbow comparisons are pretty obvious. A 7 mana arcanite reaper is just shit
"We were op before it was cool"
Undertaker Hunter says hello
I'm a level 45 Troll Shaman and I am offended. x
Why is the video' aspect ratio 15:9?
To be fair, card power is very subjective because of two very important factors: The meta and the class.
The meta determines the worth of a card and in extend, an entire deck. For example, back in late KoTFT, EVERYONE was running a skulking gheist so, cards like Jade Idol and in extent, Jade druid, despite being generally super strong, were crushed by the meta. I see this currently while playing my Tess deck. Even though im a wild player, I only play this deck in standar because there are waaaaaay less rogues in standar so the meta favors my deck, since it's super weaker vs rogue
Which leads to my second factor. The class. It's not about what card you add. It's about what card you leave out. Every card in your deck takes a spot that could be filled by something else and thus, you try to optimize every spot according to your strategy. However not all classes have the same tools. This is why hunter weapon X is better than warrior weapon Y. It's not the card on it's own, it's what else you can substitute it with. Also, one mana difference may seem minuscule but it really isn't, especially in the first few turns, 1 mana can decide board control.
Also certain classes promote certain play styles.
If you realize, the average distribuition among weapons is two stats higher than the cost.
I actually thoroughly enjoyed that you took the time to introduce your topic. However, for multiple viewings it can kind of be a pain to re-listen to the intro part. Personally, I suggest adding a timestamp for when you get to the topic for your fans who know already (i.e. when you said, "Let's begin"). Idk if people agree but I think it adds a convenience to your subscibers.
I love this kind of videos! :D Watched 2 then dropped you a sub :D
Love your content
I dnno but im feeling creative.
I woke up one day and thought - hey u know wtd be cool? If we had a kung fu druid.
So. I have a card idea.
Ysera the Scarlet Nightmare.
6 mana. 4 atk 6 health Dragon
Start of Game : If your deck contains no more then 5 minions, your hero gains 15 armour and a permanent +1 (or +2 if its too under powered) atk.
I like your HS Theories :) Sub on the way
Kings defender is great now, since war ax got nerfed, its now just strictly better.
In my Opinion killing your Opponent with a full Gorehowl Face is already enough reason to play this card lol
Doomhammer though…?
Paladin isn’t broken...sure, lets go with that assessment.
7:27 Aceeeeeeedic swamp ooze lol
errrr taunts? pyro goes face where reaper doesn't if taunts are up
“Aceedic swamp ooze”
wait but Twig of the World tree is a great card
kinda worse now that medivh rotated out but still
2:55 he told trolls to kill themselves, sweet.
Tasdingo "I cost 4 mana"
way i see it weapons only good if combo it with armor cards
Shaman has a lot of weapons, though..
forgive me for being too lazy to watch your videos, but here's my theory
1/1 for you (summon a 1/1 or give a minion +2 health) = -1 for opponent (deal 1 damage) = draw half a card
deathrattles mean halve the value for the deathrattle effect, random effects means take the average and subtract 1 sometimes, combo/conditional effects means take the average of active/inactive, card rarity often means -0, -1, -2, or -3 to (mana) cost (basic, common/rare, epic, legendary), hand size is usually 4, and there are usually 2 minions on board.
taunt is 0.5 value, charge is attack/2 value, divine shield is attack/2 value
weapons are usually damage dealt / 2 = stats. it's basically deal x damage and take x damage y times, where x is attack and y is durability. old fiery war axe was like a 2 mana 3/3, current fiery war axe is a 3 mana 3/3. which is why fiery war axe and arcanite reaper aren't played in odd warrior.
blessing of might is 1 mana give a minion 3 attack and deal 1.5 damage. 3 stats is equal to 1.5 value, so that's 3 value. indeed we see it in odd paladin.
rockbiter weapon is deal 3 damage and take 3 damage. but maybe we add a bit of value since we get to choose which unit takes damage. maybe 2 cost and 2 value. before, when it cost 1, it was normal value, but now it's not.
assassin's blade is 6 value (durability*attack/2) and 5 cost, which is normal.
gorehowl has 14 value and costs 7. but sucks hitting face, which probably balances it out.
blood razor is 2 value from stats + 2 value from first whirlwind + 2/1 value from second whirlwind = 5 value at 4 cost, which is pretty balanced, assuming whirlwind is 2 value.
twig of the world tree is 5 value from deathrattle + 5 damage and take 5 damage, which is 7.5 value at 5 mana, which is only slightly below the curve for legendaries.
whenever effects on weapons probably count the effect once.
warlock's weapon is a non-random ancestor's call that doesn't summon a unit for your opponent, so assuming ancestor's call is 5 value, warlock's weapon has 5+1+2.5 value = 8.5 value at a cost of 5, which is about normal.
warrior's weapon is 3/3 stats and recruit, which is 4.5 + 7 value (assuming recruit is 7 value) = 11.5 value. at a cost of 8, this is about normal.
hunter weapon is probably 4 value from stats + draw maybe 6 "half" the time = about 10 value, at a cost of 7 this is about normal
runespear's stats are equal to tortollan primalist, which probably explains why it's not played, even if blizzard may consider both to be somehow balanced.
as for mage and priest and rogue weapons.. I dunno. /shrug
My head hurts
pirate warrior was the best deck this game has ever seen
I think the "staff weapons" should lose durability every time they trigger...
Uhm, woecleaver didn't not see play because it was too slow; it didn't see play because the restriction was greater than the reward. If woecleaver only pulled 8+ cost minions it would be absolutely stupid in control warrior. A deck restriction effect is something much too complicated to be summed up with simply "too slow" and "too random".
weapons are just spells with a downside.
weapons are spells with some amount of damage burst, but they have a slow up curve and they result in you taking damage.
immune weapons are just pure damage, the candle bow is arcane misses.
"a cost of 2" a card is valued at 2 not 1. ie a 0 mana wisp has a value of 2. which roughly speaking is why palladin guy is a 1/1 silverhand recruit.
"is attack * durability = value" it is close. i'd use attack * 1/2 of durability though. which is why rogue hero power is 2 mana for a 1/2.
it depends on the meta, but if oozes are common you want to have a 2 durability weapon. weapons are a hand check. and the likelihood a hand has an ooze goes up exponentially if the meta calls for one. if it calls for 2, then it depends on turn number the liklihood of having an ooze. this is a emta ballance point. weapons have to be weak enough that oozes are optional. and if weapons get adequately above curve for their mana value people will be more and more prone towards runnign the weapon, and thus a response of ooze.
to design around this, while this is kinda bad, they would need to create a number of 'swamp slurpers' which have an on board ability of negating ooze battlecry or, make your weapon immune during your opponent's turn. another design direction they are going towards which is more healthy than ooze, is to have ooze reduce durability instead of destroying weapons, this shifts meta for weapons more towards long weapons.
FYI all basic hero powers are ballanced to be worth 1 extra card in hand. specifically it is a design paradigm of not wanting players to ever be completely unable to do something.
"assassin's blade is terrible" it isn't terrible it just isn't good. it is a 5 mana deal 3 twice, sometimes get another 2 attacks. it is a fireball, at cost of health, cost of turns, but you also get multiple targets potentially. reminder, if ooze shrank duribility instead of destroying weapons, then you would count on higher durability weapons getting more than 2 attacks, but as it stands. you get roughyl 2 no matter the durability, due to ooze sidestepping it.
"lower durability weapons win out" by default, but special effects overwhelm that. like twig of the world tree.
"kingsbane is good" OHHO. no. it is the worst card blizz ever put effort into. kingsbane would have been decent if it took any buffs to any previously played weapons.
OMFG i was thinking of the 0 30 minion explanation thinking: "imma leave a comment with that explanation" and then you slam me with my own idea. It is important to note blessing of might would also have to give charge for it to be compared to a weapon.
Gladiators longbow isn't that bad, just doesn't fit into any hunter decks
Taz'Dingo! Yeeehess....
Twig of the world tree is better when you can break your own weapon, cough blingtron cough.
Also, I wish to point out that weapons do also have that slight problem of taunt getting in the way. I don't think you brought that up like, at all. Also kingsbane is way too good.
You earned a sub. My iq just went to 300
aSEEdic swamp ooze eh?
Yo, Peniniless am i a good card "analyst" if i think Millhouse is the best card made in the whole game. it has a backfire it, also has a huge tempo and alot of dmg
yea thats good
Too much "anal-yzing"