I'll pay 1000 lps, discard 1 card, sacrifice 1 creature, eat the top card of my deck and bring dishonor to my family so I can negate with Barron Von Bullsh-t. But not so fast Yugi, I'll chain block with DP by pulling off one of my toenails, smoking a whole pack of cigarettes at once and giving my first new born to the devil with a blood pack! Gg
To emphasise how generic Baron is: ANCIENT GEAR has a pathway to baron. Because Urgent scedule gives you a magical dog + Reactor dragon = 1 + 9 = 10 = Baron. That is a 1 card Baron, that sets up your GY with a magical dog. If a fusion beatdown deck has a 1 card synchro omninegate: You messed up.
Hop Ear Squadron (searchable off melffy catty) can punish your opponent for dropping a kaiju you by immediately turning it into Baronne on your opponent's turn.
Quasar wasn't even the barom of its time. You had to create a whole deck just to summon 1 quasar, it was really easy to stop but when it hit the board it was basically gg ( 1 negate lmao). There was a moment quasar became a meta threat and it was when a fishborg blaster deck was able to out 2-3 quasars on average and it got fishborg blaster banned in like less than a month IIRC lmao
19:30 The way I see it is to give the monster a clause for an effect: So for baronne, you can place the pop effect or the negate after a "if this card was summoned using a 'fleur' monster it gains the following effect. Then you still have a generic summon, but it's better in it's own archtype
That’s what I’ve been saying, you said it better, Borreload savage dragon is a good example cause it needs a link in the grave and can be negated before it gains the counters, ever since Halq, Konami’s done a better job making synchro decks that aren’t broken, like Mannadium and Swordsoul are some of my favorite decks, and they aren’t broken, just well designed
You don't need a solution other then ban them. Negates create non-games, period, and the only factor that matters is whether you drew the counter or extender. Targeted negates are fine, okay, but also not necessary. Still would rather see as little of them as possible. You know why non-negate interactions are so different? Because you can't just negate the first card and get lucky that your opponent can't extend. You pop the first card, something like Aluber for instance, and they still get the search. ITS NOT BRAIN DEAD INTERACTION in other words. Why this concept is such a hot topic at all is baffling. No negate boards will always require more skill then ones with. Yes, board breakers exist but those would be the next to go if negates no longer required them existing.
It's almost like a card being generic should come at the cost of effect power and/or higher material cost. Surely we're not gonna pretend that a balance can't be struck between generic cards being useless and them being strictly better than all in-archetype tools
Not only the monsters themselves but also how easy it is to access them from the start. You can do so many summons due to effects now that it's ridiculous. And also, the loops, so many cards go back and forth from cemetery to hand and then banished back to the pile over and over that it's kind of stupid and boring.
Why are Baronne, Apo and Savage a problem, but everyone making Goyo and Stardust was fine? Why was everyone making Zenmaines fine? Or Psyframe lord omega? In the end it's people hating on combo players for no reason. There were always generic monsters everyone makes. It's just some people with wrong opinions hating on omninegates because their dumb rogue deck doesnt have the resources to bait out 3-4 negates and then still play. We should not listen to those players.
@@shakeweller Idk about you but I remember zenmaines and stardust spams were very annoying, and goyo got nerfed. Starlight road was a prime tech card too at some point
"give decks back there identities" That is exactly the problem here. Decks have no identities. Everything is kashtira. Everything is rokkets. Everything plants. Fire kings? Oh, you mean _snake-eyes kash?_ Generic staples that are SO DAMN POWERFUL are a problem, not because they make the game too high power, but because they overshadow what the decks using them are meant to be. Fire king is meant to be a deck that blows up its own cards to cause latent damage to the opponent's resources. that's what its always been. That's why garunix is a slow dark hole. But now it's just a carrier to facilitate snake-eyes and fenrir. This is a problem that can only be fixed by some combination of A LOT of erratas and quite a few bannings. (That, or finally implement set rotation.)
I use a few predaplant fusion monsters in my Odd-Eyes/Magician Pendulum deck with performapal monsters mixed in. But my Plants aren't focused on Odd-Eyes is.
With his ‘reactive’ comment: that’s spot on. Modern YGO is either reactive by ‘opponent does thing-> say no with x negates’ or proactive in that you prevent your opponent from being proactive themselves. There’s no advancing the game state, it’s all entirely about preventing the game state from happening. Sounding like a yugiboomer now, but back in the day there was a lot more back and forth capabilities - which this isn’t totally gone today, just a lot harder to have now.
Ironically, just saying no doesn't stop the decks with gas. You have to know when to say no or else they'll just outgas your prevention. This is how you know the video is a low level take of the game. By the way, the best way to play the game back then was also by stopping you from playing the game. Jinzo, Imperial Order, and Skill Drain were among the best cards in the game even back then. Then there's Bottomless Trap Hole, Torrential Tribute, and the almighty Book of Moon, all targeted towards stopping your opponent from doing the thing.
@@GaussianEntity Difference was those cards you mentioned still allowed for long back and forth games. You didn’t auto lose if you didn’t have the out to those or couldn’t play around them. You had time.
@Nephalem2002 you are not seriously trying to call skill drain jinzo or imperial order interactive just because you could draw the out. Also the game was very much decided by who could resolve their one off blow out card first.
@@alphashina So? As soon as they appeared, if you didn't have the out, you might as well have lost on the spot with the game dragging on for many turns. Just because you think you haven't lost doesn't mean you didn't in boomer formats. And guess what? The outs to those particular cards are also another set of particular cards. Draw the out was real lol.
At this point it isnt even about powerlevel, everytime a new deck comes people just go straight to : can it abuse branded fusions/ the usual synchros/ maybe stick one apo at the end? Its booooring.
Always has been. In boomer era, it was "Can it summon chaos? Can it use ROTA?" In Edison: "Can it use the Destiny HERO engine? Can it mill? Can it use E-Tele?" This game has always been about using the good cards to beat your opponent.
@@GaussianEntity while I do definitely agree with your point, I do think that the distinction made at the start of the video really does help put some extra context essential to understanding the current issue here. All these examples you listed are generic main deck options, which you would still need to draw or somehow search to make good use of. Extra Deck monsters are just always available to you, to have such strong options locked behind conditions THAT easy to summon is quite more consistent than just hoping you open your value-oriented, not always live engine...
@@tararacothemeowstic5431 To be fair, the Extra Deck hasn't been so easy to use in the past. Before, getting to a Baronne would have used up your entire hand. Also, it doesn't help that we have extenders in the Extra making it consistent to get a certain board state out. If the argument is that boss monsters are overused, then the problem isn't that of the monsters, it's the extenders that get you there. As further proof of this argument, there are archetypes like Beetrooper that don't have a good endboard to build up to, yet having all of the qualities a modern deck wants. But once they do, people will complain, just you wait. Nowadays, cards that mill from the Main, cards that draw cards, or cards that add to the hand are all the norm. As such, it's no wonder we see the same boss monsters. Decks nowadays do much of the same things. But no, let's complain about the same cards we see as if it's the real "problem" (if there even is a problem here to begin with).
@tararacothemeowstic5431 bro he's gonna tell you it was just as broken to hard draw staple spell and traps like mirror force or the all powerful skill drain in a era effs sucked anyways lol as the game is today. But he hardly played against mirror force back then also he said cuz most didnt have it so I'm super confused 😆 . He also don't believe people drew there outs like mystic space at 3 or giant trunade or dark hole and raigeki. And these are just the best outs but there was dust tornado and bait and switch doll but yea. He will then tell you his army of try hards agree with him lol cuz they tested it on master duel few months back.
Ive had this exact same thought for years now. If the end-board for a bunch of different archetypes are practically the same, whats the point in playing any of those archetypes except the one that gets you to that end-board the easiest? If the in-archetype cards dont give their end-board an advantage over any other similar archetype, why even play it?
You just described Pendulum since they removed hard locks from their scales (Qli, Zefra etc) and basically every combo meta since MR3, where the extra deck became a toolbox.
Ok so what you are saying is everyone should be playing a couple archtypes because they have the best boss monster instead of letting most archtypes be able to make a passable end board with what’s available. Genius because I love facing Branded every game
@@FrostReave You're missing the point. More decks should have as much investment in their in-archetype strategies as Branded, rather than be generic 6 negate board turbo, only competing for who has the most gas to go through handtraps.
@@MrMiarne I understood just fine it’s just not possible. They can’t support every deck in the game for a multitude of reasons. Especially when the game is constantly power creeped and just imagine how impossible it would become to balance the game deciding how much of a boost is too much or too little. Not to mention and just imagine the banlist it would take away all decks ability to adapt when having their cards limited imagine how much of an impact that would have on sales. Literally THE WORST idea I’ve heard
@@GaussianEntity back then, Goyo was a house. The fact that an LV6 ran over Stardust was a big deal. It didn't need an errata, naturally being power crept out, but it was banned for a while for that reason.
TO answer about shooting quasar as someone who played it, Shooting quasar was basically a locals only deck where if you had a lucky day maybe you could get top 2 out of 12 contenders, maybe even win, but it was a very luck demanding deck that relied on your opponent bricking
2:00 Tri-gate wizard was power-crept by Apollousa. Instead of having to build a series of extra links with different monsters to get a negation, you get up to 4 of them for throwing random bodies onto the board.
Just implement Duel Links way of ban lists where you can only use one card of the entire limit 1 pool, 2 of the entire 2 pool, and 3 from the entire limit 3 pool. You can limit strong decks from playing multiple staple boss monsters and have them choose, or make them unable to access it if they have one of their pieces or their own boss monsters in the same limit list.
As a non-Yu-Gi-Oh player I’m glad somebody finally said that shit. It looks so weird to me watching from an MTG perspective. That you can have five different decks that all have the exact same Win-con and they’re somehow considered different decks, because…. Why? It’s wild that I could jump into watching a Yu-Gi-Oh game halfway through, and only know what decks are being played by looking at the graveyards and not the board state. In Magic decks are often named after their win conditions. Not based off of the 37 cards that you played to get there. The main exception to this is tribal. But most tribes have their own unique win conditions. So the decks end up feeling distinct anyways. The other issue I see with Yu-Gi-Oh is the overabundance of toolbox strategies. In Yu-Gi-Oh every single deck is toolbox. Whereas Toolbox in magic, is just an archetype. Non-toolbox strategies exist. I think that’s another major difference between the two card games.
What annoys me, is I’ve heard people say that generic boss monsters are fine because they support bad, or off meta decks. Like bro, are you kidding me, can you imagine how much better these decks would be, if their unique boss monsters weren’t having to contend with baronne and apollousa? Suddenly making an omni negate isn’t easy anymore, suddenly, Ghoti for example actually has a niche instead of just being a funny fish deck, now you actually have decks which are built to make their own boss monsters and not end on baronne and apollousa Tier 0 decks would probably be less common because of this too actually, you get less insane end boards for decks like snake eyes, you’d see more risky strategies to make Omni’s than just summon monsters, link into apollousa
"When everyone's super...no one will be". You being allowed to Special Summon a generic boss monster that my archetype actually uses is asinine (looking at all these Accesscode Talker players who know damn well they have no intention of playing Cyberse). Generic bosses wouldn't be an issue if they were more restricted. For example, nobody would be playing Accesscode if it required all Cyberse monsters or at least 1 Code Talker monster. Nobody would care about Baron de Fluer if it required a Fluer monster. Nobody would give Borreload Savage Dragon the time of day if it required Rokkets(or at least dark dragon monsters). I agree, a lot of decks would fare better if nobody else had access to YOUR archtype's boss. If Konami is going to make generic bosses, they can't keep giving them negates. Otherwise they run the risk of breaking their own game, and that is the state we are currently in right now.
@heyarnold2006 Konami always makes the BEST monsters the most generic and easiest to go into. Stardust Dragon, Black Rose Dragon, TG Librarian, Big Eye, Shock Master, El Shaddol Construct,... all the way up to Apollousa, Borreload, Halquifibrax, Isolde, Baronne De Fleur and even RedEyes Dragoon.
@@heyarnold2006 Cardfight Vanguard does not suffer like YuGiOh does since Cardfight Vanguard is archetype-heavy. But with other issues, the main problem with Cardfight Vanguard since {Card Nations} now exist, and clans within them is a rotational support {Card Clan Nation}system that now sucks since if you have a certain favorite Clan Deck it will still not be able to compete with other top tires decks since {Rotational Card Clan Nation} support can come very late. Rotational Card Clan support worked at the beginning of CardFight Vanguard , but now with so many Nations and clans to support the cards you may get will probably be something you will not even need. Rotational Card clan Nation support can only work now if the support goes to the weakest clan, and nation card archetypes first then move card support towards the stronger meta Clan/Nation decks its an easy fix for CardFight Vanguard,but Bushirode will not do it. Yugioh will indeed benefit from a Clan/Nation system where cards can be only used in that clan and Nation,furthermore, it needs a founder system for it to work let's say the spell book archetype becomes a clan for all yugioh spell casters,and the {Edymion Archetype} becomes the leader for the nation flag it bears then all spell caster monsters can function underneath the {Nation Edymion Flag} without changing yugioh too much since in order to run any Yugioh spell caster monster cards you need the {Nation Edymion Flag} to run them it fixes the problem same with other types just rework the lore.
Cardfight Vanguard does not suffer like YuGiOh does since Cardfight Vanguard is archetype-heavy. But with other issues, the main problem with Cardfight Vanguard since {Card Nations} now exist, and clans within them is a rotational support {Card Clan Nation}system that now sucks since if you have a certain favorite Clan Deck it will still not be able to compete with other top tires decks since {Rotational Card Clan Nation} support can come very late. Rotational Card Clan support worked at the beginning of CardFight Vanguard , but now with so many Nations and clans to support the cards you may get will probably be something you will not even need. Rotational Card clan Nation support can only work now if the support goes to the weakest clan, and nation card archetypes first then move card support towards the stronger meta Clan/Nation decks its an easy fix for CardFight Vanguard,but Bushirode will not do it. Yugioh will indeed benefit from a Clan/Nation system where cards can be only used in that clan and Nation,furthermore, it needs a founder system for it to work let's say the spell book archetype becomes a clan for all yugioh spell casters,and the {Edymion Archetype} becomes the leader for the nation flag it bears then all spell caster monsters can function underneath the {Nation Edymion Flag} without changing yugioh too much since in order to run any Yugioh spell caster monster cards you need the {Nation Edymion Flag} to run them it fixes the problem same with other types just rework the lore.
@@1BadAssArchAngelvs14 Having a rotational set block means power creep can be kept at a minimum. Cards don't have to be bigger and badder just to be playable if the biggest and baddest are no longer in play!
19:00 I think there is a middle ground here. For example if Baronne required warriors, it would be warrior support which covers multiple archetypes. Same with cards like Promethean Princess, Tidal, etc. you can make cards not generic while also aligning them with a type, element, etc. just SOMETHING to make it so every deck isn’t just turboing out the same boring end board.
@@johnnyhall9154 yeah there are. The real issue is how do you get rid of them without just removing them. In a perfect world we could just make small text changes to adjust the broken parts of cards but in a physical card game that’s not exactly a good solution. Maybe mass retrains 😂
i wanna ask smth cuz i'm new to the game, only started like a month ago. I've been playing swordsoul and Baronne is like my best synchro, right? From what i understand it isn't like a very high tier deck. So wouldn't banning some of these neutrals make lower tier decks even worse, while the top tier will stay on the top?
@@henriquerodrigues7795 Having Baronne makes you not care about Nibiru, so you over extend and setup a board that will very likely win you the game thanks to Baronne because it does "too much" (for example Long synchro 2 banishes, 1 negate from lvl8, 2 pops from the trap, you get the point). Not having Baronne means Nibiru is a threat so it rewards you playing more passively like searching the trap, setting something like Imperm and passing making your opponent's Nibiru useless. This rewards you for playing better instead of being greedy, while it also gives the opponent the opportunity to play against a more "beatable board" so it's better for the game. Swordsoul was the best deck when released but now relying on 2 card combos while not playing on both turns made it way less competitive.
Yeah, I had been playing Princess in my Suship deck and its been a nice and fair tool and interruption. It only becomes a problem when played in a deck that facilitates shitting out these generic boss monsters like Snake-Eyes.
When you ask about a potential middle ground can that be achieved for generic extra deck monsters for decks to end on turn 1, then my awnser is to stop making monsters that negate and/or remove your opponent's cards unconditionally like Apollousa, Baronne and IP into SP/Unicorn and start making monsters that primarily designed to protect your board instead when your opponent starts to interacting with your board, like Stardust Dragon, Utopia and Decode Talker. Have combo decks be designed to set up a big board turn 1, try to survive that turn and see if they can follow up on the next turn to go for game. Allow the opponent to fucking interact with a combo board instead of having all their plays stopped before they can even interact with their opponent.
They have tried that. They made DPE, Mirrorjade, and the entire Vanquished Soul archetype. People still hate this kind of interaction because waaaah I can't do my deck combo instead of building around this fact. You want a protection based meta but when neither side can break through, it just leads to stall. This was basically the Tour Guide early Xyz meta with Zenmaines as the wall you made to deal with anything. Sure, it had weaknesses, but drawing the out was much harder back then since engines were scarce and it was easier to go into the Extra.
Protection is different from Disruption. DPE is generally a disruption and recovery card. Mirrorjade is a double disruption considering its quick effect banish that can plus and its lingering destruction when removed from the field. Vanquish Soul is of disruption considering how annoying its hand mechanic if you have dark, earth, and fire I just don't see the enjoyment of dueling against it as everyone wants to win but I'd rather surrender than face it. Take the win so I can go find something more enjoyable to face. Thing is, no one likes to play Protection other than those who focus on the theme of a deck as well as them playing 60 card protection piles because that's the only way to sneak in enough room unless you wanna cut ratios down as in 40 there isn't enough room for protection. Building a Jack Atlas deck? Then yeah, you're gonna run cards to protect his soul by literal protection or sidestepping the problem entirely, Red Gardna, Barrier Resonator if they disrupt your resonant play while leaving it on the field, Synchro Rumble, Synchro Call, Time to Stand Up, Burning Soul, even Fiendish Golem into Fiendish Chain with Red Zone. Building a Nasch deck? What cards are you going to run considering it's a range of ranks 3 to 5, his protection is mainly going to come from the graveyard with his fishes in there, it's also a form of set up. Honestly, I still haven't fine tuned the theme of his deck because it's a hodgepodge, do I play the Barian cards and if I do what else can I fit in or am I playing the Full Armor mechanic or am I doing both? And no, I'm not playing cards with fish in the name unless they were cards he ran, he mainly ran Sharks, octopus cards, and barnacle cards. Still trying to find cards that send from deck to grave. Though now that I'm looking at it... Lifeless Leaffish fits the deck perfectly even though Nasch didn't run it.... do I compromise on the ideal theme of the deck or do I just put it in? I might as well put it in to try and restructure the deck around. Building a Kite deck? His protection is a part of his finisher, get Galaxy Photon Dragon out with Starliege Photon Blast Dragon out, summon Galaxy-Eyes Photon, go into Prime Photon and boom. But it also has protection with in archetype handtraps, Photon Jumper, Galactikuriboh, Kuriphoton, and Galaxy Tyranno and not to mention the Tachyon cards if you're trying to run Number 107, just don't run C107 because Galaxy Hundred can cheat it out in the mirror so that means no Rank-Up-Magic.
Generic spell/traps are still in the game and are consistently released. Forbidden Droplet, DRNM, The Black Goat Laughs, Transaction Rollback, etc. Generic boss monsters usually live in the extra deck, so that means that they can consistently be reached. Generic spells/traps can't be searched, so you either open them or do a complex line that relies on generics (4x Alembertian, Knightmare Gryphon + Beatrice, etc) Thus, you see generic boss monsters more. That's pretty much the reason why. A card like Baronne? You can build around it. You can think about the synergies with it and your archetype. You can make meta calls to reach it (IE, running more Lv. 3 Tuner handtraps because you're playing Kashtira and it gives you a play if you get interrupted and have no extenders; the Ghost Girls are good by themselves too if you don't need them to make an emergency Baronne). A strong generic spell/trap? Well, it has to be strong enough or solve a weakness crucial enough that you are willing to just hard draw it.
If the F&L banlist position on the Extra Deck worked similarly to the Duel Links restrictions or if Yugioh added the common "these cards are fully legal but unable to be used in the same deck" restriction as an option that a lot of newer Japanese TCGs have implemented (or ideally use both) then there would be so much more flexibility. I think that MOST of Yugioh's current problems are the result of Konami not having futureproofed the game and are way too tricky to easily address. But reworking the way the F&L list works to actually fit the current game rather than the game from 20 years ago it was initially made for could be done overnight and immediately address many of its biggest problems. Would it fix them? Not entirely, but it would alleviate them. The OCG hitting S:P to 2 is the most clown shoes hit but if for instance it was "you can only run 2 of any of the following: S:P, Baronne, Apollousa, I:P, Accesscode, Promethean Princess, Linkuriboh (etc)" then suddenly something being added to that "semi-limited" list becomes HUGELY impactful - and with this sort of restriction it would also allow some banned Extra Deck cards to be brought back (if Diabolosis was unable to be used in the same deck as Shangri-Ira, it probably could be made legal). F&L was never designed around the Extra Deck, it mainly hits consistency, which is a total non-factor with the Extra Deck. Another thing dumb about Baronne is that it isn't even any deck with level 10 access because there are cards specifically designed to pivot to 10 even in decks that aren't meant for it. Decks that can go to 8 (one of the most common levels that Synchro is meant to hit) while having any level 2 Tuner in the GY (like, say, GAMMA?) can make Baronne because of Accel Synchro Stardust Dragon.
I always thought a Duel Links style ban list for Extra Deck would be better than what we have now. It's why I never understood the discourse on increasing/decreasing Extra Deck size.
I think fenrir should have at least 1 errata: when it searches another card it locks you to only kash, or it can be special summoned only if your opponent controls something
Fenrier is the canary in the coal mine much like cyber dragon used to be. In itself it's not the worst card out there. It illustrates what defines a bare minimum
@@hookah6579 excuse me, what?!?! The bare minimum is being a pankratops that searches himself while being both a peice of end board and a going second tool? Fenrir is one problem card because it can be used both by tier 0 decks and for fun decks. It's not THE problem card by any means(ban flamberge/original sinful spoils) but we should start from somewhere
In the shift from synchro to xyz era the monsters got more generic and had better toolbox effects but you couldn't ladder climb them, they had lower attack and limited activations. I feel this was the design space konami should have stuck with over generic bodies with big numbers and big effects to sell big product. The recent goat format event demonstrated the need for extra deck toolbox answers when it was so easy to slap down a level limit area B yet so hard to answer it. So I think cards like black rose dragon, tornado dragon and knightmare phoenix are good for the game because they're generic. The way the game shifted from pendulum era onwards feels like a mistake to me, we'd be better off going back to the xyz era's power level and just adding more decks at that power level.
XYZ were alright... originally... they were forcing you to use resources for a power effect with their materials and then Konami got greedy and "Rank Up" became a thing and then XYZ monsters that could continually replenish their materials with effects that cost nothing became a thing. Yugioh suffers from a lack of cost to do things.
Baronne and Savage can be semi-locked to their archetype while still being able to be used in some other decks just by putting any monster card from their archetype as a material requirement. For example, you can lock Baronne by forcing the player to use any "Fleur" card as a requirement while the other is anything else. In that way, most decks won't be able to play it.
people love to complain about flood gates but making 4-8 interactions that are half omni negates is the same thing with extra steps. At least flood gates get straight to the point and I don't need to watch you combo off for 10-15 min solitaire style
Baronne honestly should have required a Synchro Tuner, it could have still been generic but it needs an extra hoop to jump through. Borrel Savage probably needed to be either Rokket or at least dark dragon tuner locked
Honestly, since its 5ds support and is a level 10 it should of fit in better with the idea and required a Tuner Synchro monster. Maybe not chevalier but at least also a synchro monster but idk at least the first part.
@user-jx1jr3gs8t it's sad that little guy was made and the only person is going to be playing it is Sherry if they ever see any of the other 5ds characters
I feel like generic cards should never be as good as in archetype cards. Otherwise archetypes just become a tool to spam out more negates. So if you have 2 generic omni negates - the top archetypes should be able to break through 1-3 negates in 50% of hands. If there are 7 playable Handtraps the top archetypes should be able to break through them in 50% of hands. The only option to change the current state of: "win die roll or loose" is to limit frequently played handtraps like ahbloss and endboardtoken and either ban or give the goyo guardian treatment to bossmonsters like Baron, Savagedragon and Apollousa so they become in archetype bossmonsters. Also delete Fenrir.
Alternate solutions to material erratas or blanket bans: Follow Cardfight Vanguard's Choice Restriction. A new "Exclusive" category in the banlist. They're cards that can only be played if you exclude certain other cards that make the combination a problem. Rhongomyniad is fine if you exclude Gossip Shadow or Numbers Evail.
This opens the window for banned cards that belong in mid/trash archetypes that really need them so stuff like halq and verte could potentially come off. And technically means they can keep snake eyes stuff off the list longer by forcing them to use a weirder extra deck.
@@justblake6975 Yep exactly. You want Halq? No Auroradon. Union Carrier? No Dragon Buster Destruction Sword. There was a time when Dragon Buster was banned and it killed Buster Blader as a barely functioning archetype.
So, the Duel Links Method? Where you're only allowed one Limit 1 card out of the whole list, or more so like Smogon's Complex Bans like no Swift Swim + Drizzle?
@@iamthepkmmaster Duel Links is too broad with its Limited Pool but yes similar idea. Instead of an entire tier of Limited, it's on a card by card basis.
The best state the extra deck existed in IMO is the rank 4 toolbox. It was just like 8+ rank 4s that all did slightly different things to put a situation on board.
The thing is, if they banned all generic boss monsters, they would have to make specific boss monsters for every archetype. And honestly it wouldnt change much, cuz some decks will always be better at making their boss monsters then others. snake eye would still be the best deck, because they are the best at bringing out the monsters.
you could balance around the fact that those decks that bring out their boss monsters easily have worse ones than those who have to work hard to get them
shoutout to when they saw traptrix doing copium otks with accesscode and gave them, a trap deck, access to consistent in archetype otks (they still suck)
@@Trappu-Would like to double down on this point. There are so many archetypes that don’t “DO” anything or have no effective means of accomplishing what they set out to do. They either have no endgame, gimmick, or synergy. And if they get support, it doesn’t address either of these problems. So the generic monsters become stand-ins to increase viability for pet decks. Of course, to do that, they have to serve a generic purpose (like negating). So why not include them in better designed decks that can accommodate them? It is 100% a function of the poor design of “incomplete” decks.
I think this is part of why I always go back to Mathmech/Cyberse. Sure it ends on a bunch of negates and interactions but at least it has its own identity. It's not just turboing out Baronne and Appolousa. And yeah I know Accesscode is generic but that was OUR card first. You all took it from us.
The problem with generic boss monsters is that they’re meant to give weak decks a foothold but again, they are GENERIC so it was counterintuitive and if we want to fix it, we have to give all the ass decks good cards to make that are non generic. The other problem is when they make cards that should be non generic, take baronne, savage and halq but it brings another problem of making the cards irrelevant due to a lack of decent decks to use them in
Hence the conclusion should be that generics are a necessity and that Konami should instead balance the archetypes as it is much easier to do that. They could make generics the chase cards and the archetypes as the tools you use to get there but they need to print money so the new archetypes become so insane that they power creep what comes before it while also pushing these generics that only these new archetypes can take advantage of.
@GaussianEntity You would be completely correct if that wasn't already the case. The whole problem in the video was that archetypes chase generic boss cards, making any form of variety nonexistant. If you can't get rid of generic cards, just make them do what they were always meant to do, shore up the weaknesses of decks without access to some of the things they can provide. Make them weaker and more situational, and problem solved.
@@devariojohns Except that the video is wrong. Generic boss monsters have never been the problem. If anything, they make the game easier to understand and play into. The game has always been about *how* you get to the end board/state, not what you get to. That's what makes archetypes interesting imo and not enough discussion is about that. That Komoney likes to break their own rules about what archetypes should be about and what they should do just to sell more is a different story.
@@GaussianEntity Barrone and Appollosa are problems, though. You can't say they have never been the problem when there is evidence that they have. All you have to do is watch games. Of course, some generic cards mentioned in the video haven't been played in a while, but they've just been replaced by new ones. Even if we say that it doesn't matter what you go into, what about how many you go into? What about the overwhelming number of generic negate boss monsters that make up boards today? If it doesn't matter what you go into, why is everyone actively choosing to go into these cards that create non-games by forcing players to fill their decks with the most degerate answers possible? Generic boss monsters are a symptom of the disease, and they must be made weaker if they are to be played in everything.
@@devariojohns Baronne is *one* negate. Apo maybe but Baronne is a single point of interaction. You can pretend it said "Discard 1 card from your opponent's hand" and it would be nearly the same. People have this weird hate boner against negates when they have existed in some form or another since the Synchro era. A Baronne by itself doesn't do much. Now when it's paired with several other forms of interaction, it does become a bit much but now you're actually talking about a completely different issue.
The "high roll" argument is so BS. It's like saying that gambling is OK because you only lose your entire life savings if you low roll. If a single outcome costs you all the stakes for any give scenario, no matter how uncommon, that is not a fair scenario.
Also ca we acknowledge the "I won the lottery so your don't get to play the game" mentality in yugioh. It's completely fueled by bad game design, but it's fully embraced by the community. I'm looking at you stun players.
Tbf, I love making stun decks but not if they're just prebuilt bullshit. Like runics. Ya ban mystic mine than make a whole archetype worse than it? And of course a little girl is the boss monster... I'm not even mad the mechanics are broken (can't bring back pot of greed but this control archetype has a draw 3) but it's gotta be cringe too with little girl pussy
30 minutes and only X views? Farfa has fa..... No I'm not a bot just kidding. Indeed a really good video and even better discussion. I believe checking those generic boss monsters would also allow less extreme going second cards. For example Super Poly, Droplet, DRNM can become really toxic due to the "no response" clause and even follow those bosses in the banlist IF they aren't so needed for going second. The talk about IP specifically is something I never considered before this format, too bad it gets a double reprint because it would make SP a really fair going second tool if it got banned. That Master Duel Synchro Snake board is nasty, Elf + Promethean looping both Formula AND IP should have one of the highest winrates in the game. Finally what i really dislike about those generic boss monsters is how they overshadow even good archetype support. A great example is the new Melodious stuff. Tons of recovery, removal (field + gy) and protection, with huge grind capabilities, but typically you are just better with the Apollo Baronne Savage negate vomit board that if cracked you scoop. I personally blame this for 80% of the hate pendulum gets (10% boomers "too complex" 10% actually being complex)
So true!!! They shouldn't have made so many monsters this way But to quote an unrelated UA-camr i saw that utterred a great fraze "Maybe they'll do something about it, but they won't, they already got your money"
@@idosarts_and_krafts the "they already got your money" hit pretty hard. Not for banlist reasons but SP specifically. I was grinding during AgOv and first week none sold their SP so I had to play a regional without it (waiting for it to come next week). I was 6-0 all 2-0 then lost the 2 last rounds specifically because 1 I didn't have a discard for Unicorn, 2 I needed a double removal. Both cases game 2 that I previously won game 1, one I lost to bricking game 3 the other lost to time. It made me really upset that there wasn't any misplay or luck factor involved in my loss, but specifically not having SP in those cases instead of Uni.
The issue with what you're saying about needlefiber is that cards like it will always get banned eventually. As fun as it was to have around, it was busted. Cards like it shouldn't be made because as much as they'll enable creative combos, they'll also enable crap that no one wants to play against. Which eventually leads to it getting banned.
Which is why the complaints about current strong card are dumb unless said card actually stops you from doing anything (e.g. Utopic Zexal, Azathot, maybe Kali Yuga in the future). Cards that put walls to the opponent's gameplay can still be fun to play against provided that you can do something about it and there aren't too many of them.
@GaussianEntity huh? I explain why cards like Needlefiber aren't good, and your reply is that complaining about them is dumb? The issue with yugioh is that there's VERY little work to get a huge payoff. Earlier, it would take you a couple of turns to make a boss monster that needed multiple steps to summon. Even something as simple (at least these days) as Crystal Wing Synchro Dragon had a summon condition of a synchro monster being needed. It's a monster negate that can attack over any monster. Now, you can make a generic omni-negate that can destroy a card every your turn and replace itself with a combo piece if needed in the form of Baronne. Dragoon is a well designed card because despite being absurdly powerful and potentially a game ending card, it's summoning conditions are awful.
@@ramiobeid2889Nah this guy is spamming the same copypasta in other comments. It's haha stop complaining yugiboomers, the game has always been good/sh*t.
@ramiobeid2889 I don't know about that guy, but could you explain where you're coming from? Because Needlefiber isn't really that strong. A card like that is only as good as what it allows to happen. This means that if we take away its access to those cards by restricting it or banning the cards it makes, its power goes away. If you wanna say what if they make another broken card, or that it would restrict them from making "good" cards in the future, then that's what it's supposed to do. Good card designers don't want to make broken cards, and are okay with following guidelines that prevent that.
@@trancepeirce3107 Copypasta implies it's the same comment lol. Just because you don't wanna read it doesn't mean it's a copypasta. Also, I can say "haha yugiboomers" because I'm also one.
It's not just the boss monsters, certain engines are the exact same way. Kashtira and snake eyes are both perfect examples. Runs on literally every zone in the game (snake eyes even adds another one), has effects that you just get for free every turn, etc. Just pick one, ffs. If you're going to summon cards directly from your deck for free every turn, maybe don't also interact with the banish zone, and with the graveyard, and have literally every piece recur every other piece automatically with no resource commitment? So ridiculous. Swordsoul, mathmech, etc. are actually strong and fair. Why is it so hard not to make literally unfair, generic BS?
Because edo is a dog shit version of yugioh with devs who can't read and players who use deviantart cards. Also he's probably forced to censor it because he's more than likely in konami's pocket.
See, they're a problem, obviously. But I wish the stronger archetypes in yugioh were more restrictive like say, Unchained for example. Unchained fiend locks you so the only "generic extra deck staple" you can use is mostly goddess I *do* like generic boss monsters like Baronne for a less powerful deck like speedroid for example to give it a bit of a boost in power, giving it a better chance against meta decks
I truly can’t imagine new players getting into the game, you either have to have a lot of time on your hand or you just don’t play much, you can’t even play for fun anymore because you’ll need to drop so much money to even “compete” for fun, most decks are useless and if you think you can get your cards from anywhere other than a gaming store you’re smoking, the shit is sold out within an hour of it being on the shelf where I am. It’s also just boring now, repetitive, basically no casual play, expensive, and I’ve met a few people who are odd, I can’t even go to events I just play online when I have nothing else to do.
Even playing online is frustrating. Especially for masterduel where gem prices are high and they put the UR tag on every best card on every archetype. But still there is no room for rogue decks.
In what world is it expensive to compete or have fun? Being a sheep is very expensive. Or wanting total freedom over what you want to play. But many yugituber show how to win with 100€ Decks or even less. People top with rogue decks all the time. I play rogue exclusively. If you dont have match up knowledge you gonna suck regardless of your deck.
@@Corey91666 Yugitubers are liars majority of the time. They want newbies going to locals to give the pros free wins cause their not playing best deck.
@@Nephalem2002 that is the dumbest thing i ever heard. They call decks like Crystal beasts trash. They wont give you all infos or things that go very far ahead of the curve but they dont lie. Also again many deck loyalist top with random stuff like crystal beasts or earth Machine. Also who says you must top or win all the time to have fun. I played locals with mekk knights and went 1 2 1 and had fun. Get a grip.
I have an idea for solution...nerf their ATK points. I know! Hear me out! The biggest problem with these extra deck wombo combo decks is that they stop you from playing by having committed all their resources into an unbreakable board and then when you can't play, they rush you down to 0 on turn 3. So what if they couldn't do that anymore because something like Baronne now instead of 3k only had 2k. Savage had a 2k base and could get to 2,9k with an equip etc. Not only would that make them easier to deal with by battle or mean your opponent had to play more defensively, but it would give genuine OTK decks a spot in the meta instead of being relegated to "I guess I can deal damage consistently" as their only redeeming quality. But realistically? Ban Ancient Leaf and raise the starting LP to 12-16K Make it so losing on turn 3 becomes less likely and make games more grindy in a way that's actually fun because you can afford to not put every resource you have into making a comeback
The issue with generic boss monsters is specifically because they artificially inflate the power level of every deck to come that can make them. Something like Majespecter Nue is a power and consistency upgrade for ONE deck not potentially all of them lol. And when a deck already has a high power ceiling it just makes it worse.
And yet without IP, Links would be pretty one-dimensional. See Xyz monsters. They have no Masq equivalent. They see nearly no play due to this fact unless the Xyz has some absurd effect. There's also very few tricks you can do with them that allow non-meta to compete. Banning IP is just weird when it makes Link monsters interesting.
@@GaussianEntity good is relative. By banning IP more cards will become viable, which means you will get more "good" cards to play with, and why people want it gone.
@@BiggusThiccus Prove it lol. If anything, the opposite is true. IP ban means Links will be less playable since cards like Knightmare Unicorn and Underworld Goddess become worse, Link monsters with Link summon effects won't be usable during the opponent's turn, and finally, you can't give protection to monsters that need it to be viable.
The argument of getting rid of generic boss monsters doesnt make sense to me. Because if they were to get rid of generic boss monsters to make in archtype specific boss monsters. You would essentially all still be playing the same card but with different art. Its like saying we need rota for every deck type.
omninegates boss mosnters are still bad but i agree with you that if the "negate and destroy" boss monster is Baronee or an archetype monster, who cares if the unbreakable board on turn 1 doesn't let the opponent to play anything
At least once we get a copy of baronne or savage, we don't have to buy another one for every new deck they release. It would just be another card we would have to get for every new deck. Gotta buy the new "omni negate" or "target 1 card, destroy/banish it" that they release every set along with the "add/special summon 1 lvl 4 or lower from deck"
Appo is the least of my worry for snake eyes, I can out Appo with a spell or trap or punch over, my problem is Barron and Borreload. The "negate anything" makes life hard. But I like the card art so we keep them :).
That's one of the reasons why I stopped playing Yu-Gi-Oh modern after 2018. I got extremely bored with every deck having the same boss monsters and games were essentially "can you build your board turn one and win or does your opponent have hand traps." And then it turns into "can the opponent that hand trapped you build their board and win or does the other player have hand traps." Its boring
Easiest errata for Barrone, needs a warrior as material. Accesscode, needs a cyberse. Barrel, a dragon. Make them a little less generic but still viable in a few decks
probably, though for acesscode specifically you'd probably have to go a step further since technically any deck that could spare the ED space for a Lanphorhynchus or smth could make that first to get a cyberse on the field before making accesscode. You might have to make summoning it work similar to transcode talker's effect so instead you could only summon it if you've only summoned cyberse monsters this turn (and potnetially last turn as well), and after you summon it you'd be cyberse locked, since its so easy to get out.
Why the hell does baronne de fleur, a level 10 a generic summon when chevalier de fleur a level 8 and seen as its weaker version requires fleur synchron???? Konami make it make sense
okay let's imagine that we ban apollousa, baronne, ip, borrell, accesscode and any other generic boss. Stun would still exist, decks that have multiple interactions that cards in the opponent's hand (even without having any negates) would still be broken, and in the end it would be the community complaining about broken non-generic boss monsters/ modern yugioh being shit/ whoever goes first will probably winning, in other words, would technically not face the same monsters that prevent you from playing, but the game would still be the same.
Sort of. Stun is very vulnerable. A random harpy's feather duster cripples stun, same with Rageki or anything else. Stun really doesn't have extenders or even starters. They hard draw everything
Also floodgates are getting hit now on banlists if all cards you mentioned are hit then anti spell and summon limit is at 1 as well tell me what nasty broken thing we cooking as players
Why is it always one or the other. Like people can't say omnis should be banned without someone needing to interject the whole "yeah but stun." No shit. They are part of the problem too. Stop obfuscating from the point to try to keep shit as it is.
Truth is Omni's should be banned as players we know this in our hearts. The game needs it the environment of the card game needs it but konaminthe business doesn't need it. No Omnis means no greedflation for them. How can konami feed greedflation and shrinkflation without Omnis. So to answer your question that's why our answer is binary to this question we know the solution but would it be implemented by konami. I can honestly tell you right at this moment is the most generous konami is being why cause they are dieing as a company. Just remember that we the players have no power here we can only be realistic and give this answer of one or the other since we know konami won't give or do the solution.
@@spicymemes7458It's not obfuscating the point, whether or not this shit will stay the same with omnis banned or not. people will always find things to complain about, konami will always create omins/stuns or unstoppable tier 0 decks and that's how they make money.
if i had to say, things been bad for ygo for these reason : -field spell : quirk of field spell come from the fact that it affect both player. but modern field spell 'play' like it was a continue spell -monster card : back on old days, monster purpose is to hit field and either used as fodder for stronger one and battling. but nowadays it given too much utility. now they get to tutor stuff which is spell role, have immunity + stat booster which should be what equip do and lately can do disruption like a trap -stats : attribute / level / rank / type still there and used but feel like forgotten concept. there nothing such fire mons weak to water mons or high level mons immune from lower level effect,
yo, why was baron never talked about before being cheap tho .. ? i mean it is powerful and all, but i just hate reprinting good cards, so that normal players will be able to buy and play them, just to ban them a few months later on the next list
People have talked about how Barrone and Savage were problems before, but now that we've gone two top decks back to back who's only game plan is to vomit extra deck monsters (SHS and Snake Eye), their problems have become far more noticeable, and there are far fewer excuses for their existence
@@DehaloveBecause at the time the decks that could make it were few and didn't actually need her at all times. Only a handful of people wanted her gone at the time due to those few decks. Now she's being made more easily in more decks which also coincided with a cheaper reprint of her.
How to fix the main problem cards in this vid: Borreload Savage: errata: Needs Rokket Synchron and Dragon non-tuners Baronne: errata: Needs Fluer Synchron, that's it. Apollousa: Just ban it, too generic to still be legal as an omni-negate body
I think the idea of banning generic ED cards is the worst I have seen so far. The next step would be banning every generic card and having archetypes to get their personal copy of these cards. So you can't recycle those cards in multiple decks and you have to buy every single card you switch an archetype. Plus the reprints would take forever and after a few years these cards would be extremely expensive. It is just a money printing guarantee for konami and also playwise you have to know so many more cards. I think in the end only Konami wins and the players complaining now would cheer because now it is not Baronne endboard but a card that's exactly like Baronne but has a different Name.
1:20 into the video and I highly agree with the takes (especially the Masq ban). Literally if the generic Extra Deck goodstuff was banned, Snake-Eyes wouldn't be Tier 0
No Branded would be. In fact Branded would be eternally the best most uncounterable deck and like 90% of decks would be completely unplayable especially rogue. I don’t get the logic here
@@FrostReave So? Just hit Branded and done if it is problematic. I don't see why it has to be a mutually exclusive thing that you can only have one or the other. As for the argument of "Think about the Rogue Decks hurt by the banning of generic strong Extra Deck monsters", have you ever considered why those Decks are Rogue in the first place and why generic ED monsters wouldn't help with that? Rogue Decks often lack in either consistency or the ability to play through disruption, and Extra Deck Boss Monsters will not help them be better there. All it does is make them able to make similar boards but be worse at doing it than the Top Decks, which is not a thing that a Rogue Deck wants to be known for. At that point, why not just play the Top Decks when they just do what Rogue Decks can do but better? And that's basically a major point of Farfa's commentary on the video: nobody wants to play a Deck that basically does the same thing as other Decks unless if it can do it better. They want to play Decks that feel distinct and not have to rely on doing what other Decks already do in order to play. That's why you have many people in the Yugioh sphere complaining about generic Extra Deck goodstuff cards that invalidate the existence of other cards because it invalidates the identity of so many Decks and makes the game significantly less interesting to play. You can argue that the game is "balanced" around these titans existing, but clearly there aren't many who are happy with that balance if there's videos like the one shown off here that exist
I don’t agree with archetype locks but I do think there should be some type of lock on a lot of these cards. I think infernoble is the best example of a good combo deck in terms of game design because while it creates boards that aren’t healthy gamestates it only gets there if you allow it. There’s a warrior lock and a fire lock implemented into the combo at different stages, and it utilizes its own boss monster for its main combo function.
If people want Maxx C ban. This card should go with those generic bosses. . What the middle? People forget about "Type". I think Type is the best thing to make the card less generic but players can still be creative. Or maybe some unique restriction like Spright, but make the lock harder. Because sometimes you can still IP to apollosa or Cat suddenly summon floldgates.
I'll do both. Not kidding. I will destroy every copy of Maxx C if it meant losing Baronne, Apollousa, Savage, and Masquerena. Throw the floodgates in there too. I have no favorites.
I'd say blackwing is that perfect in-between where you have ceratin small locks not to make the deck too generic but has a lot of different ways to play and build the deck
People whine about generic bosses but here's a challenge: name a good Synchro boss for every level. Name a good Xyz boss monster for every rank. Name a good Link boss monster for every rating. All of the "problematic" boss monsters are usually the only monster in that category. Baronne is the *first* good level 10 Synchro monster that is completely generic. Seriously, go find another. You won't. Same with the others.
I don't disagree with you on that, but we are also at a point in Yu-Gi-Oh where levels, ranks, and link ratings don't really matter because of how easy it is to put bodies on the field. Like if tomorrow they came out with a rank they came out with a level 11 synchro that had a double omni negate The same decks that play Baronne now would definitely just play that and figure out a new way to make it
@@BoBnfishy Sadly this is a consequence of the link era changing the game to making bodies on the board worth something inherently. It also doesn't help that tuners become easier and easier to summon with every new archetype.
What about limiting to 5 or 6 summons (Normal and special) in your turn and 1 or 2 max on the opponent's turn? The Nibiru event was interesting (if no one found a way to negate it/took advantage of it) since it was really hard to pull off an omni negate in your 1st turn, and the games took 5 to 7 turns with lots of interactions. Of course more adjustments need to be made, but maybe that's a start.
I was literally just talking about how if they banned Baronne / Apo and the rest of the generic negate crew, they could ban Maxx C and just let Nibiru run wild and free. The only thing enabling combo decks to combo forever unchecked is early negates being built. You take away generic access to those and suddenly combo decks are getting rocks thrown at them left and right. On top of that, in a Maxx C format, going first and building negates to protect your Maxx C resolution is really powerful. Nothing worse than playing into a big negate board and THEY Maxx C you, you have the out but then they can just negate it. Feels terrible. Plus hitting negates and Maxx C would overall just increase the fun of the game by a lot.
Generic to summon means you get a specific effect for an archetype, specific requirements to summon means you get a generally good effect, seems like the way to design extra deck monsters to me
Branded is filled with a bunch of custom cards though. It brought Bystials (especially Lubellion - ugh), Mirrorjade, and Rindbrumm into the game. None of these cards are really fair imo. It generates far too much advantage, some of which can dodge all hand traps by setting or placing cards into your spell and trap zone. It recycles cards from the banishment, has a searchable hand trap negate, cards that add themselves back to hand, etc.
@@Dori_Dorifto Mirrorjade and other cards can SS an Albaz from deck to fuse away one of your opponent's monsters. The deck has an absurd amount of recovery and interruption. Every turn you will lose a piece of your board or GY by card effect, I disagree with Farfa, the deck isn't balanced because it has too many ways to remove cards, that will just flat out kill most decks.
@@leeeyles1864 how many times has that happened in a Game you have played? Because if your branded players are summoning albaz from deck and fusing with your field by going -1, this is a low elo problem
Borrelsword might be overtuned, but imo it's what generic ED monsters should be : Monsters that are good for 1 thing so you use them to make up for your deck's weaknesses.
Borrelsword is fine because you have to commit 3+ effect monsters into it, so if you fail to otk you end up in a unfavourable position. However anything beyond that powerlevel is indeed problematic.
The middle ground is that extra deck monsters must require one of the materials to either be the same type or the same attribute; that way you can't just splash baronne into a dark attribute main deck.
I'm legit sick and tired of this bloody argument. No, it doesn't matter that the end board is the same. The decks play differently and have different strength and weaknesses. If you go to stop SHS with Droll they pass, if you go stop SE with droll you're doing jack shit the majority of times. People keep saying all the combo decks end on the same exact board or baronne, savage, apo. Really? Adamancipator would end on dragite and beast with IP or baronne, SHS can fucking FTK you, Freaking Vaylantz end on secret village and a flood on top of apo, sometimes they don't even make apo they make avramax, Drytron was sitting on herald of ultimateness, mannadium is making dis pater and cross sheep with baronne. Even trying to deal with any of these decks is different. Because they are different decks. Just play the deck that makes those the most efficient? Please show me where was Apo under Tear 0, where was savage under Tear 0, cause I remember the best thing you could make was Avramax because it was untargetable. Hell you want a more modern example, Tell me why SHS who is the most efficient deck to make them isn't prefered versus Snake Eyes who majority have stopped playing the synchro version? Removes identity is a bull argument. Because it's missing the biggest thing about an archetypes identity, which isn't the playstyle but THE CARDS THEMSELVES. Not every deck has the same amount of plays they can perform or the same amount of synergies , it is the unique combination that gives the archetype it's identity and not just that you crush balls for mannadium. The issue those generic cards have is that there are not contested enough on their spot, there are like 3 level 10 synchros worth playing, one is an otk tool, 1 is baronne, and the last one is a banish effect. Obviously baronne is going to win the majority of time. Link 4+ on the other hand are more contested, with avramax, apo, zeroboros, borrelsword, Goddess, amblowhale, zealantis, that new salad link 4, accesscode, but as you see apo is the only interruption and zealantis as I learned who doubles as an otk tool.
Didn't need generic support for tear when they didn't care what interactions you played when there end goal was fusing from the grave.....oh you negated shorten and sent it to the grave? Second effect I fuse get kit mill and win big anyways.....oh you ghost belled? Well I activate the second name I mill's and fuse anyway....that's why tear didn't bother with anything other then tear and things that milled or shuffled because it was a archtype made to be good.
@@yamiangelous Was talking about decks that where fighting against tear but tear did have generics. MD specifically they played a zoodiac package for zeus, they played redoer to fuse on the opp turn, dweller for the mirror, elf to keep milling with merrli, mudragon and dracostpaelia just to have some fusions. Then they had unique ones depending the game plan, baronne if they where on diviner, Goddess to out avramax, Sprind to send merrli, Chaos ruler if they played destrudo, Garura if they played super poly, beatrice if they played a warrior package with the bystials, Winda if they played some shaddols, Dark law for those who were on masked change 2, some god forshaken souls where on kots for caliga, now it is used for the dark world fusion. Now also they are on AFD with revolution synchron. Additionally never stuck in MD but danger tear was on Curious, in TCG it also played knightmare gryphon.
Yes but that's my point all those cards aren't playing in there archtype, because they let's face it weren't given the support they should have. A generic card shouldn't be some ultimate boss monster anyone can use it should be support to help with your archtype.....
"What is the point of building new archetypes, when the best way to play them is to vomit out the same 4-5 boss monsters and call it a day?" We gon' pretend as if we haven't been doing that since this game's inception? 💀
If generic monsters were banned or rewrote, it doesn't feel like it would make the game better, but just kill a lot of decks off. Definitely considering a lot of synchro decks, considering a lot of them don't have good boss monsters or good spell or traps to put up a fight.
wow this aged well
Indeed
the bear on the flor is indeed dead
Also, f for dragon link
All my videos do
I'll Remove 3 Fenrir Rant Counters to add 1 Kashtira Fenrir from my deck to my hand
I'll pay 1000 lps, discard 1 card, sacrifice 1 creature, eat the top card of my deck and bring dishonor to my family so I can negate with Barron Von Bullsh-t. But not so fast Yugi, I'll chain block with DP by pulling off one of my toenails, smoking a whole pack of cigarettes at once and giving my first new born to the devil with a blood pack! Gg
@@kendallpeebles7481 Not so fast, Kaiba! I draw all five pieces of Exodia(and five dollars) from my back pocket!
A cost to fenrir? Crazy suggestion
And I Ash Blossom the Branded Fusion, just to be safe
To emphasise how generic Baron is:
ANCIENT GEAR has a pathway to baron. Because Urgent scedule gives you a magical dog + Reactor dragon = 1 + 9 = 10 = Baron. That is a 1 card Baron, that sets up your GY with a magical dog.
If a fusion beatdown deck has a 1 card synchro omninegate: You messed up.
This is true for any Earth MAchine variant out there. Machina Metalcruncher is also a 9.
A magical dog doesnt sound like it has much to do with some ancient gears
Fun fact any plant deck can get to baronne thru summon lone fire blossom.
@@Thot-Slayer-420 it is an EARTH machine
Hop Ear Squadron (searchable off melffy catty) can punish your opponent for dropping a kaiju you by immediately turning it into Baronne on your opponent's turn.
I just want it to be consistent. Why does MY deck lock me to the archetype? But all these others have no restrictions?
Because your deck is racist. It’s that simple.
THEORETICALLY its bc those archetypes can have lots of searchable options within but that doesnt really apply anymore
@@tiggerbane4325r-aceist decks fr tho
@@LikeTheBirb nah it's because some decks need to be better than others to make pack fillers on one side and expensive cards on the other
Insects have the worse locks!
Quasar wasn't even the barom of its time. You had to create a whole deck just to summon 1 quasar, it was really easy to stop but when it hit the board it was basically gg ( 1 negate lmao). There was a moment quasar became a meta threat and it was when a fishborg blaster deck was able to out 2-3 quasars on average and it got fishborg blaster banned in like less than a month IIRC lmao
Meanwhile Fenrir/Unicorn + any ghost girl makes baronne.
@@superskrub4209 Trading an in-hand negate for an on-field negate, sounds fine to me
Can I ask for that deck? I would like to use it on Tag Force 6 (if possible)
Or at least keywords to search for/time frame of the deck usage
Kaijus were the nail in the coffin for Quasar, Blazar and Cosmic
@@superskrub4209speedroid make it super easily with Tempest
19:30 The way I see it is to give the monster a clause for an effect: So for baronne, you can place the pop effect or the negate after a "if this card was summoned using a 'fleur' monster it gains the following effect. Then you still have a generic summon, but it's better in it's own archtype
That’s what I’ve been saying, you said it better, Borreload savage dragon is a good example cause it needs a link in the grave and can be negated before it gains the counters, ever since Halq, Konami’s done a better job making synchro decks that aren’t broken, like Mannadium and Swordsoul are some of my favorite decks, and they aren’t broken, just well designed
You don't need a solution other then ban them. Negates create non-games, period, and the only factor that matters is whether you drew the counter or extender. Targeted negates are fine, okay, but also not necessary. Still would rather see as little of them as possible.
You know why non-negate interactions are so different? Because you can't just negate the first card and get lucky that your opponent can't extend. You pop the first card, something like Aluber for instance, and they still get the search. ITS NOT BRAIN DEAD INTERACTION in other words. Why this concept is such a hot topic at all is baffling. No negate boards will always require more skill then ones with. Yes, board breakers exist but those would be the next to go if negates no longer required them existing.
Even just having it require a warrior material would make it far more acceptable
@@ratoh1710at worse Mannadium would use it, even then they could struggle
This man's iq is better than the entirety of konami
It's almost like a card being generic should come at the cost of effect power and/or higher material cost. Surely we're not gonna pretend that a balance can't be struck between generic cards being useless and them being strictly better than all in-archetype tools
I mean I don't think there's an economic incentive not to print generic boss monsters which is the only incentive that matters.
Generic boss monsters are a problem and have been a while.
Not only the monsters themselves but also how easy it is to access them from the start. You can do so many summons due to effects now that it's ridiculous. And also, the loops, so many cards go back and forth from cemetery to hand and then banished back to the pile over and over that it's kind of stupid and boring.
Why are Baronne, Apo and Savage a problem, but everyone making Goyo and Stardust was fine? Why was everyone making Zenmaines fine? Or Psyframe lord omega?
In the end it's people hating on combo players for no reason. There were always generic monsters everyone makes. It's just some people with wrong opinions hating on omninegates because their dumb rogue deck doesnt have the resources to bait out 3-4 negates and then still play. We should not listen to those players.
@@shakeweller4 IQ opinion
Generic omnis are not comparable to generic battle tricks or specific negation. @@shakeweller
@@shakeweller Idk about you but I remember zenmaines and stardust spams were very annoying, and goyo got nerfed. Starlight road was a prime tech card too at some point
"give decks back there identities"
That is exactly the problem here. Decks have no identities. Everything is kashtira. Everything is rokkets. Everything plants.
Fire kings? Oh, you mean _snake-eyes kash?_
Generic staples that are SO DAMN POWERFUL are a problem, not because they make the game too high power, but because they overshadow what the decks using them are meant to be.
Fire king is meant to be a deck that blows up its own cards to cause latent damage to the opponent's resources. that's what its always been. That's why garunix is a slow dark hole.
But now it's just a carrier to facilitate snake-eyes and fenrir.
This is a problem that can only be fixed by some combination of A LOT of erratas and quite a few bannings. (That, or finally implement set rotation.)
I use a few predaplant fusion monsters in my Odd-Eyes/Magician Pendulum deck with performapal monsters mixed in. But my Plants aren't focused on Odd-Eyes is.
Money bruh, Konami and retailers make a lot of money of these cards. Its Play 2 Win
Loss of identity seems to be a recurring theme in gaming.
Hell, even life itself.
Set rotation would kill this game
@@jeremybrown9611nobody wants to admit that cuz it's admitting they are suckering us😂. Game was ruined after pendulums imo nobody can change my mind.
Reduce those generic boss monster stats. Impinge a Barone with 2100 attack u have the choice to beat over them.
This would chance everything. Imagine a powerful card like Dragoon but has 0/0 to even it out.
With his ‘reactive’ comment: that’s spot on. Modern YGO is either reactive by ‘opponent does thing-> say no with x negates’ or proactive in that you prevent your opponent from being proactive themselves. There’s no advancing the game state, it’s all entirely about preventing the game state from happening. Sounding like a yugiboomer now, but back in the day there was a lot more back and forth capabilities - which this isn’t totally gone today, just a lot harder to have now.
Ironically, just saying no doesn't stop the decks with gas. You have to know when to say no or else they'll just outgas your prevention. This is how you know the video is a low level take of the game.
By the way, the best way to play the game back then was also by stopping you from playing the game. Jinzo, Imperial Order, and Skill Drain were among the best cards in the game even back then. Then there's Bottomless Trap Hole, Torrential Tribute, and the almighty Book of Moon, all targeted towards stopping your opponent from doing the thing.
@@GaussianEntity Difference was those cards you mentioned still allowed for long back and forth games. You didn’t auto lose if you didn’t have the out to those or couldn’t play around them. You had time.
@Nephalem2002 you are not seriously trying to call skill drain jinzo or imperial order interactive just because you could draw the out. Also the game was very much decided by who could resolve their one off blow out card first.
@@GaussianEntity Jinzo, Imperial Order, and Skill Drain doesn't appear together in turn 1, each with 3000 atk, then kill you in next turn.
@@alphashina So? As soon as they appeared, if you didn't have the out, you might as well have lost on the spot with the game dragging on for many turns. Just because you think you haven't lost doesn't mean you didn't in boomer formats. And guess what? The outs to those particular cards are also another set of particular cards. Draw the out was real lol.
At this point it isnt even about powerlevel, everytime a new deck comes people just go straight to : can it abuse branded fusions/ the usual synchros/ maybe stick one apo at the end?
Its booooring.
Always has been. In boomer era, it was "Can it summon chaos? Can it use ROTA?" In Edison: "Can it use the Destiny HERO engine? Can it mill? Can it use E-Tele?" This game has always been about using the good cards to beat your opponent.
@@GaussianEntityyou gi oh should honestly stop being so good stuff focused
@@GaussianEntity while I do definitely agree with your point, I do think that the distinction made at the start of the video really does help put some extra context essential to understanding the current issue here. All these examples you listed are generic main deck options, which you would still need to draw or somehow search to make good use of. Extra Deck monsters are just always available to you, to have such strong options locked behind conditions THAT easy to summon is quite more consistent than just hoping you open your value-oriented, not always live engine...
@@tararacothemeowstic5431 To be fair, the Extra Deck hasn't been so easy to use in the past. Before, getting to a Baronne would have used up your entire hand. Also, it doesn't help that we have extenders in the Extra making it consistent to get a certain board state out. If the argument is that boss monsters are overused, then the problem isn't that of the monsters, it's the extenders that get you there. As further proof of this argument, there are archetypes like Beetrooper that don't have a good endboard to build up to, yet having all of the qualities a modern deck wants. But once they do, people will complain, just you wait.
Nowadays, cards that mill from the Main, cards that draw cards, or cards that add to the hand are all the norm. As such, it's no wonder we see the same boss monsters. Decks nowadays do much of the same things. But no, let's complain about the same cards we see as if it's the real "problem" (if there even is a problem here to begin with).
@tararacothemeowstic5431 bro he's gonna tell you it was just as broken to hard draw staple spell and traps like mirror force or the all powerful skill drain in a era effs sucked anyways lol as the game is today. But he hardly played against mirror force back then also he said cuz most didnt have it so I'm super confused 😆 . He also don't believe people drew there outs like mystic space at 3 or giant trunade or dark hole and raigeki. And these are just the best outs but there was dust tornado and bait and switch doll but yea. He will then tell you his army of try hards agree with him lol cuz they tested it on master duel few months back.
Ive had this exact same thought for years now.
If the end-board for a bunch of different archetypes are practically the same, whats the point in playing any of those archetypes except the one that gets you to that end-board the easiest? If the in-archetype cards dont give their end-board an advantage over any other similar archetype, why even play it?
You just described Pendulum since they removed hard locks from their scales (Qli, Zefra etc) and basically every combo meta since MR3, where the extra deck became a toolbox.
Ok so what you are saying is everyone should be playing a couple archtypes because they have the best boss monster instead of letting most archtypes be able to make a passable end board with what’s available. Genius because I love facing Branded every game
@@FrostReave You're missing the point. More decks should have as much investment in their in-archetype strategies as Branded, rather than be generic 6 negate board turbo, only competing for who has the most gas to go through handtraps.
@@MrMiarne I understood just fine it’s just not possible. They can’t support every deck in the game for a multitude of reasons. Especially when the game is constantly power creeped and just imagine how impossible it would become to balance the game deciding how much of a boost is too much or too little. Not to mention and just imagine the banlist it would take away all decks ability to adapt when having their cards limited imagine how much of an impact that would have on sales.
Literally THE WORST idea I’ve heard
@@FrostReave Don't be such a baby. I cant wait to face the meta with my fabled leviathan! To heru with baroness and Dis Pater
God, that "Fenrir Rant Counter" was the funniest bait I've seen in a while. THAT is how you troll people.
Goyo Guardian and Dark Strike Fighter were banned and later errata'd for less than what modern ED boss monsters are capable of now.
Goyo's errata was just bad but pre-nerf DSF is still better than every extra deck monster that isn't banned.
@@GaussianEntity back then, Goyo was a house. The fact that an LV6 ran over Stardust was a big deal. It didn't need an errata, naturally being power crept out, but it was banned for a while for that reason.
Pre errata DSF was basically an FTK enabler.
@@spicymemes7458 I meant the errata was bad.
@@GaussianEntity It was bad considering that by the time it came off the list, it was already power crept. I agree.
TO answer about shooting quasar as someone who played it, Shooting quasar was basically a locals only deck where if you had a lucky day maybe you could get top 2 out of 12 contenders, maybe even win, but it was a very luck demanding deck that relied on your opponent bricking
2:00 Tri-gate wizard was power-crept by Apollousa. Instead of having to build a series of extra links with different monsters to get a negation, you get up to 4 of them for throwing random bodies onto the board.
Laval Quasar was a top tier deck in the OCG back in 2012/2013.
When we finally got the cards for it over here tho... DRulers were already out.
I’ve seen that deck in the YGO live action series by ImpossibleStudio
GOD THAT LOOKED SO MUCH FUN
I think generic boss monsters need to exist, but they need to be worse that the in archetype ones.
Ada: rock digging.
Mannadium: BALL CRUSHING
Dinosaurs: pop da baby
FIRE KANGS: pop dababy
Soon, all archetypes will pop da baby
Cyber Dragons: upgrades people, UPGRADES!!
@@jjfrenzy789 truth
Just implement Duel Links way of ban lists where you can only use one card of the entire limit 1 pool, 2 of the entire 2 pool, and 3 from the entire limit 3 pool. You can limit strong decks from playing multiple staple boss monsters and have them choose, or make them unable to access it if they have one of their pieces or their own boss monsters in the same limit list.
As a non-Yu-Gi-Oh player I’m glad somebody finally said that shit. It looks so weird to me watching from an MTG perspective. That you can have five different decks that all have the exact same Win-con and they’re somehow considered different decks, because…. Why?
It’s wild that I could jump into watching a Yu-Gi-Oh game halfway through, and only know what decks are being played by looking at the graveyards and not the board state.
In Magic decks are often named after their win conditions. Not based off of the 37 cards that you played to get there. The main exception to this is tribal. But most tribes have their own unique win conditions. So the decks end up feeling distinct anyways.
The other issue I see with Yu-Gi-Oh is the overabundance of toolbox strategies. In Yu-Gi-Oh every single deck is toolbox. Whereas Toolbox in magic, is just an archetype. Non-toolbox strategies exist. I think that’s another major difference between the two card games.
But Farfa, Maxx C keeps them in check
Maxx c doesn't do anything if you don't draw a good hand trap from it
@@alexandergeorgiev74its joke
Just draw the out :)
So true bestie
But wait Called By The-
...Oh shit
What annoys me, is I’ve heard people say that generic boss monsters are fine because they support bad, or off meta decks. Like bro, are you kidding me, can you imagine how much better these decks would be, if their unique boss monsters weren’t having to contend with baronne and apollousa? Suddenly making an omni negate isn’t easy anymore, suddenly, Ghoti for example actually has a niche instead of just being a funny fish deck, now you actually have decks which are built to make their own boss monsters and not end on baronne and apollousa
Tier 0 decks would probably be less common because of this too actually, you get less insane end boards for decks like snake eyes, you’d see more risky strategies to make Omni’s than just summon monsters, link into apollousa
"When everyone's super...no one will be". You being allowed to Special Summon a generic boss monster that my archetype actually uses is asinine (looking at all these Accesscode Talker players who know damn well they have no intention of playing Cyberse). Generic bosses wouldn't be an issue if they were more restricted.
For example, nobody would be playing Accesscode if it required all Cyberse monsters or at least 1 Code Talker monster. Nobody would care about Baron de Fluer if it required a Fluer monster. Nobody would give Borreload Savage Dragon the time of day if it required Rokkets(or at least dark dragon monsters). I agree, a lot of decks would fare better if nobody else had access to YOUR archtype's boss. If Konami is going to make generic bosses, they can't keep giving them negates. Otherwise they run the risk of breaking their own game, and that is the state we are currently in right now.
@heyarnold2006 Konami always makes the BEST monsters the most generic and easiest to go into. Stardust Dragon, Black Rose Dragon, TG Librarian, Big Eye, Shock Master, El Shaddol Construct,... all the way up to Apollousa, Borreload, Halquifibrax, Isolde, Baronne De Fleur and even RedEyes Dragoon.
@@heyarnold2006 Cardfight Vanguard does not suffer like YuGiOh does since Cardfight Vanguard is archetype-heavy. But with other issues, the main problem with Cardfight Vanguard since {Card Nations} now exist, and clans within them is a rotational support {Card Clan Nation}system that now sucks since if you have a certain favorite Clan Deck it will still not be able to compete with other top tires decks since {Rotational Card Clan Nation} support can come very late. Rotational Card Clan support worked at the beginning of CardFight Vanguard , but now with so many Nations and clans to support the cards you may get will probably be something you will not even need. Rotational Card clan Nation support can only work now if the support goes to the weakest clan, and nation card archetypes first then move card support towards the stronger meta Clan/Nation decks its an easy fix for CardFight Vanguard,but Bushirode will not do it. Yugioh will indeed benefit from a Clan/Nation system where cards can be only used in that clan and Nation,furthermore, it needs a founder system for it to work let's say the spell book archetype becomes a clan for all yugioh spell casters,and the {Edymion Archetype} becomes the leader for the nation flag it bears then all spell caster monsters can function underneath the {Nation Edymion Flag} without changing yugioh too much since in order to run any Yugioh spell caster monster cards you need the {Nation Edymion Flag} to run them it fixes the problem same with other types just rework the lore.
Cardfight Vanguard does not suffer like YuGiOh does since Cardfight Vanguard is archetype-heavy. But with other issues, the main problem with Cardfight Vanguard since {Card Nations} now exist, and clans within them is a rotational support {Card Clan Nation}system that now sucks since if you have a certain favorite Clan Deck it will still not be able to compete with other top tires decks since {Rotational Card Clan Nation} support can come very late. Rotational Card Clan support worked at the beginning of CardFight Vanguard , but now with so many Nations and clans to support the cards you may get will probably be something you will not even need. Rotational Card clan Nation support can only work now if the support goes to the weakest clan, and nation card archetypes first then move card support towards the stronger meta Clan/Nation decks its an easy fix for CardFight Vanguard,but Bushirode will not do it. Yugioh will indeed benefit from a Clan/Nation system where cards can be only used in that clan and Nation,furthermore, it needs a founder system for it to work let's say the spell book archetype becomes a clan for all yugioh spell casters,and the {Edymion Archetype} becomes the leader for the nation flag it bears then all spell caster monsters can function underneath the {Nation Edymion Flag} without changing yugioh too much since in order to run any Yugioh spell caster monster cards you need the {Nation Edymion Flag} to run them it fixes the problem same with other types just rework the lore.
@@1BadAssArchAngelvs14 Having a rotational set block means power creep can be kept at a minimum. Cards don't have to be bigger and badder just to be playable if the biggest and baddest are no longer in play!
shock master face jumpscare was actually insane
19:00 I think there is a middle ground here. For example if Baronne required warriors, it would be warrior support which covers multiple archetypes.
Same with cards like Promethean Princess, Tidal, etc. you can make cards not generic while also aligning them with a type, element, etc. just SOMETHING to make it so every deck isn’t just turboing out the same boring end board.
There are so many cards that should not be generic but aren't.
@@johnnyhall9154 yeah there are. The real issue is how do you get rid of them without just removing them. In a perfect world we could just make small text changes to adjust the broken parts of cards but in a physical card game that’s not exactly a good solution.
Maybe mass retrains 😂
i wanna ask smth cuz i'm new to the game, only started like a month ago. I've been playing swordsoul and Baronne is like my best synchro, right? From what i understand it isn't like a very high tier deck. So wouldn't banning some of these neutrals make lower tier decks even worse, while the top tier will stay on the top?
@@henriquerodrigues7795 Having Baronne makes you not care about Nibiru, so you over extend and setup a board that will very likely win you the game thanks to Baronne because it does "too much" (for example Long synchro 2 banishes, 1 negate from lvl8, 2 pops from the trap, you get the point).
Not having Baronne means Nibiru is a threat so it rewards you playing more passively like searching the trap, setting something like Imperm and passing making your opponent's Nibiru useless.
This rewards you for playing better instead of being greedy, while it also gives the opponent the opportunity to play against a more "beatable board" so it's better for the game.
Swordsoul was the best deck when released but now relying on 2 card combos while not playing on both turns made it way less competitive.
Yeah, I had been playing Princess in my Suship deck and its been a nice and fair tool and interruption. It only becomes a problem when played in a deck that facilitates shitting out these generic boss monsters like Snake-Eyes.
When you ask about a potential middle ground can that be achieved for generic extra deck monsters for decks to end on turn 1, then my awnser is to stop making monsters that negate and/or remove your opponent's cards unconditionally like Apollousa, Baronne and IP into SP/Unicorn and start making monsters that primarily designed to protect your board instead when your opponent starts to interacting with your board, like Stardust Dragon, Utopia and Decode Talker. Have combo decks be designed to set up a big board turn 1, try to survive that turn and see if they can follow up on the next turn to go for game. Allow the opponent to fucking interact with a combo board instead of having all their plays stopped before they can even interact with their opponent.
They have tried that. They made DPE, Mirrorjade, and the entire Vanquished Soul archetype. People still hate this kind of interaction because waaaah I can't do my deck combo instead of building around this fact.
You want a protection based meta but when neither side can break through, it just leads to stall. This was basically the Tour Guide early Xyz meta with Zenmaines as the wall you made to deal with anything. Sure, it had weaknesses, but drawing the out was much harder back then since engines were scarce and it was easier to go into the Extra.
Protection is different from Disruption. DPE is generally a disruption and recovery card. Mirrorjade is a double disruption considering its quick effect banish that can plus and its lingering destruction when removed from the field. Vanquish Soul is of disruption considering how annoying its hand mechanic if you have dark, earth, and fire I just don't see the enjoyment of dueling against it as everyone wants to win but I'd rather surrender than face it. Take the win so I can go find something more enjoyable to face.
Thing is, no one likes to play Protection other than those who focus on the theme of a deck as well as them playing 60 card protection piles because that's the only way to sneak in enough room unless you wanna cut ratios down as in 40 there isn't enough room for protection.
Building a Jack Atlas deck? Then yeah, you're gonna run cards to protect his soul by literal protection or sidestepping the problem entirely, Red Gardna, Barrier Resonator if they disrupt your resonant play while leaving it on the field, Synchro Rumble, Synchro Call, Time to Stand Up, Burning Soul, even Fiendish Golem into Fiendish Chain with Red Zone.
Building a Nasch deck? What cards are you going to run considering it's a range of ranks 3 to 5, his protection is mainly going to come from the graveyard with his fishes in there, it's also a form of set up. Honestly, I still haven't fine tuned the theme of his deck because it's a hodgepodge, do I play the Barian cards and if I do what else can I fit in or am I playing the Full Armor mechanic or am I doing both? And no, I'm not playing cards with fish in the name unless they were cards he ran, he mainly ran Sharks, octopus cards, and barnacle cards. Still trying to find cards that send from deck to grave. Though now that I'm looking at it... Lifeless Leaffish fits the deck perfectly even though Nasch didn't run it.... do I compromise on the ideal theme of the deck or do I just put it in? I might as well put it in to try and restructure the deck around.
Building a Kite deck? His protection is a part of his finisher, get Galaxy Photon Dragon out with Starliege Photon Blast Dragon out, summon Galaxy-Eyes Photon, go into Prime Photon and boom. But it also has protection with in archetype handtraps, Photon Jumper, Galactikuriboh, Kuriphoton, and Galaxy Tyranno and not to mention the Tachyon cards if you're trying to run Number 107, just don't run C107 because Galaxy Hundred can cheat it out in the mirror so that means no Rank-Up-Magic.
I always questioned instead of why of having so many generic boss monsters why not keep the archetype and have the generic cards be spells and traps
Congrats, you just described post-Goat format. Pre too but we didn't really have established archetypes before Goat format.
Generic spell/traps are still in the game and are consistently released. Forbidden Droplet, DRNM, The Black Goat Laughs, Transaction Rollback, etc.
Generic boss monsters usually live in the extra deck, so that means that they can consistently be reached. Generic spells/traps can't be searched, so you either open them or do a complex line that relies on generics (4x Alembertian, Knightmare Gryphon + Beatrice, etc) Thus, you see generic boss monsters more.
That's pretty much the reason why. A card like Baronne? You can build around it. You can think about the synergies with it and your archetype. You can make meta calls to reach it (IE, running more Lv. 3 Tuner handtraps because you're playing Kashtira and it gives you a play if you get interrupted and have no extenders; the Ghost Girls are good by themselves too if you don't need them to make an emergency Baronne). A strong generic spell/trap? Well, it has to be strong enough or solve a weakness crucial enough that you are willing to just hard draw it.
They all should be erratad to their own specific archetypes, like baronne should require fleur synchron and savage should require a rokket, etc...
Savage should just be Dis Pater and say 1 Dragon tuner
yep locking them in their own archtype is the solution, making generic negate cards is just bad design and repetitive.
@@reheedygo3718 Facts
@@reheedygo3718I don't mind having one, but it should either be really tough to summon or have a pretty big downside.
@@dudono1744 Quasar is peak generic boss design
If the F&L banlist position on the Extra Deck worked similarly to the Duel Links restrictions or if Yugioh added the common "these cards are fully legal but unable to be used in the same deck" restriction as an option that a lot of newer Japanese TCGs have implemented (or ideally use both) then there would be so much more flexibility. I think that MOST of Yugioh's current problems are the result of Konami not having futureproofed the game and are way too tricky to easily address. But reworking the way the F&L list works to actually fit the current game rather than the game from 20 years ago it was initially made for could be done overnight and immediately address many of its biggest problems. Would it fix them? Not entirely, but it would alleviate them.
The OCG hitting S:P to 2 is the most clown shoes hit but if for instance it was "you can only run 2 of any of the following: S:P, Baronne, Apollousa, I:P, Accesscode, Promethean Princess, Linkuriboh (etc)" then suddenly something being added to that "semi-limited" list becomes HUGELY impactful - and with this sort of restriction it would also allow some banned Extra Deck cards to be brought back (if Diabolosis was unable to be used in the same deck as Shangri-Ira, it probably could be made legal). F&L was never designed around the Extra Deck, it mainly hits consistency, which is a total non-factor with the Extra Deck.
Another thing dumb about Baronne is that it isn't even any deck with level 10 access because there are cards specifically designed to pivot to 10 even in decks that aren't meant for it. Decks that can go to 8 (one of the most common levels that Synchro is meant to hit) while having any level 2 Tuner in the GY (like, say, GAMMA?) can make Baronne because of Accel Synchro Stardust Dragon.
I always thought a Duel Links style ban list for Extra Deck would be better than what we have now. It's why I never understood the discourse on increasing/decreasing Extra Deck size.
I think fenrir should have at least 1 errata: when it searches another card it locks you to only kash, or it can be special summoned only if your opponent controls something
Fenrier is the canary in the coal mine much like cyber dragon used to be. In itself it's not the worst card out there. It illustrates what defines a bare minimum
@@hookah6579 excuse me, what?!?! The bare minimum is being a pankratops that searches himself while being both a peice of end board and a going second tool? Fenrir is one problem card because it can be used both by tier 0 decks and for fun decks. It's not THE problem card by any means(ban flamberge/original sinful spoils) but we should start from somewhere
I’d rather we just ban Fenirr
Wouldn't it just be better to make it search any other Kash monster? It's such a simple fix
In the shift from synchro to xyz era the monsters got more generic and had better toolbox effects but you couldn't ladder climb them, they had lower attack and limited activations. I feel this was the design space konami should have stuck with over generic bodies with big numbers and big effects to sell big product.
The recent goat format event demonstrated the need for extra deck toolbox answers when it was so easy to slap down a level limit area B yet so hard to answer it. So I think cards like black rose dragon, tornado dragon and knightmare phoenix are good for the game because they're generic.
The way the game shifted from pendulum era onwards feels like a mistake to me, we'd be better off going back to the xyz era's power level and just adding more decks at that power level.
XYZ were alright... originally... they were forcing you to use resources for a power effect with their materials and then Konami got greedy and "Rank Up" became a thing and then XYZ monsters that could continually replenish their materials with effects that cost nothing became a thing. Yugioh suffers from a lack of cost to do things.
@@Sovereign-kh4ngwhat did rank-up do to you
Rank-up is cool as hell
It’s like an evolution of Accel Synchro
Baronne and Savage can be semi-locked to their archetype while still being able to be used in some other decks just by putting any monster card from their archetype as a material requirement. For example, you can lock Baronne by forcing the player to use any "Fleur" card as a requirement while the other is anything else. In that way, most decks won't be able to play it.
Well this aged brilliantly
people love to complain about flood gates but making 4-8 interactions that are half omni negates is the same thing with extra steps. At least flood gates get straight to the point and I don't need to watch you combo off for 10-15 min solitaire style
Baronne honestly should have required a Synchro Tuner, it could have still been generic but it needs an extra hoop to jump through.
Borrel Savage probably needed to be either Rokket or at least dark dragon tuner locked
Simple fix
Make Borrel Savage require Baronne as material
I see zero problems with this
De Fleur tuner is enough
They'd just use formula. I do
What they should have done with Baron is make them use the tuner monster Necro Synchron or something
Or perhaps fleur synchron
Honestly, since its 5ds support and is a level 10 it should of fit in better with the idea and required a Tuner Synchro monster. Maybe not chevalier but at least also a synchro monster but idk at least the first part.
@trainerbrendan969
Now that, I agree. As an Accele Synchro
If you wanna print Barron to make it require Necro synchron might as well not print it
@user-jx1jr3gs8t it's sad that little guy was made and the only person is going to be playing it is Sherry if they ever see any of the other 5ds characters
Coming back to this as konami just announced the ban of baronne and savage
I feel like generic cards should never be as good as in archetype cards. Otherwise archetypes just become a tool to spam out more negates. So if you have 2 generic omni negates - the top archetypes should be able to break through 1-3 negates in 50% of hands. If there are 7 playable Handtraps the top archetypes should be able to break through them in 50% of hands. The only option to change the current state of: "win die roll or loose" is to limit frequently played handtraps like ahbloss and endboardtoken and either ban or give the goyo guardian treatment to bossmonsters like Baron, Savagedragon and Apollousa so they become in archetype bossmonsters. Also delete Fenrir.
I'm on record with my friend group saying that generic link monsters are the biggest mistake in Yu-Gi-Oh.
Alternate solutions to material erratas or blanket bans: Follow Cardfight Vanguard's Choice Restriction. A new "Exclusive" category in the banlist. They're cards that can only be played if you exclude certain other cards that make the combination a problem.
Rhongomyniad is fine if you exclude Gossip Shadow or Numbers Evail.
This opens the window for banned cards that belong in mid/trash archetypes that really need them so stuff like halq and verte could potentially come off. And technically means they can keep snake eyes stuff off the list longer by forcing them to use a weirder extra deck.
@@justblake6975 Yep exactly. You want Halq? No Auroradon.
Union Carrier? No Dragon Buster Destruction Sword. There was a time when Dragon Buster was banned and it killed Buster Blader as a barely functioning archetype.
You underestimate peoples ability to cook, that list would be bigger than the ban list.
So, the Duel Links Method? Where you're only allowed one Limit 1 card out of the whole list, or more so like Smogon's Complex Bans like no Swift Swim + Drizzle?
@@iamthepkmmaster Duel Links is too broad with its Limited Pool but yes similar idea. Instead of an entire tier of Limited, it's on a card by card basis.
The best state the extra deck existed in IMO is the rank 4 toolbox. It was just like 8+ rank 4s that all did slightly different things to put a situation on board.
The thing is, if they banned all generic boss monsters, they would have to make specific boss monsters for every archetype. And honestly it wouldnt change much, cuz some decks will always be better at making their boss monsters then others. snake eye would still be the best deck, because they are the best at bringing out the monsters.
you could balance around the fact that those decks that bring out their boss monsters easily have worse ones than those who have to work hard to get them
Konami have dug themselves into a big hole by releasing incomplete archetypes again and again
shoutout to when they saw traptrix doing copium otks with accesscode and gave them, a trap deck, access to consistent in archetype otks (they still suck)
Also Konami can’t support every deck. Like look at all the decks they have left in the dust
@@Trappu-Would like to double down on this point. There are so many archetypes that don’t “DO” anything or have no effective means of accomplishing what they set out to do. They either have no endgame, gimmick, or synergy. And if they get support, it doesn’t address either of these problems. So the generic monsters become stand-ins to increase viability for pet decks. Of course, to do that, they have to serve a generic purpose (like negating). So why not include them in better designed decks that can accommodate them? It is 100% a function of the poor design of “incomplete” decks.
I think this is part of why I always go back to Mathmech/Cyberse. Sure it ends on a bunch of negates and interactions but at least it has its own identity. It's not just turboing out Baronne and Appolousa.
And yeah I know Accesscode is generic but that was OUR card first. You all took it from us.
The problem with generic boss monsters is that they’re meant to give weak decks a foothold but again, they are GENERIC so it was counterintuitive and if we want to fix it, we have to give all the ass decks good cards to make that are non generic. The other problem is when they make cards that should be non generic, take baronne, savage and halq but it brings another problem of making the cards irrelevant due to a lack of decent decks to use them in
Hence the conclusion should be that generics are a necessity and that Konami should instead balance the archetypes as it is much easier to do that. They could make generics the chase cards and the archetypes as the tools you use to get there but they need to print money so the new archetypes become so insane that they power creep what comes before it while also pushing these generics that only these new archetypes can take advantage of.
@GaussianEntity You would be completely correct if that wasn't already the case. The whole problem in the video was that archetypes chase generic boss cards, making any form of variety nonexistant. If you can't get rid of generic cards, just make them do what they were always meant to do, shore up the weaknesses of decks without access to some of the things they can provide. Make them weaker and more situational, and problem solved.
@@devariojohns Except that the video is wrong. Generic boss monsters have never been the problem. If anything, they make the game easier to understand and play into. The game has always been about *how* you get to the end board/state, not what you get to. That's what makes archetypes interesting imo and not enough discussion is about that.
That Komoney likes to break their own rules about what archetypes should be about and what they should do just to sell more is a different story.
@@GaussianEntity Barrone and Appollosa are problems, though. You can't say they have never been the problem when there is evidence that they have. All you have to do is watch games. Of course, some generic cards mentioned in the video haven't been played in a while, but they've just been replaced by new ones. Even if we say that it doesn't matter what you go into, what about how many you go into? What about the overwhelming number of generic negate boss monsters that make up boards today? If it doesn't matter what you go into, why is everyone actively choosing to go into these cards that create non-games by forcing players to fill their decks with the most degerate answers possible? Generic boss monsters are a symptom of the disease, and they must be made weaker if they are to be played in everything.
@@devariojohns Baronne is *one* negate. Apo maybe but Baronne is a single point of interaction. You can pretend it said "Discard 1 card from your opponent's hand" and it would be nearly the same. People have this weird hate boner against negates when they have existed in some form or another since the Synchro era. A Baronne by itself doesn't do much. Now when it's paired with several other forms of interaction, it does become a bit much but now you're actually talking about a completely different issue.
_You were right by your Magic Cylinder short. 😂_
The "high roll" argument is so BS. It's like saying that gambling is OK because you only lose your entire life savings if you low roll. If a single outcome costs you all the stakes for any give scenario, no matter how uncommon, that is not a fair scenario.
Also ca we acknowledge the "I won the lottery so your don't get to play the game" mentality in yugioh. It's completely fueled by bad game design, but it's fully embraced by the community. I'm looking at you stun players.
Tbf, I love making stun decks but not if they're just prebuilt bullshit. Like runics. Ya ban mystic mine than make a whole archetype worse than it? And of course a little girl is the boss monster... I'm not even mad the mechanics are broken (can't bring back pot of greed but this control archetype has a draw 3) but it's gotta be cringe too with little girl pussy
Nothing should be banned. They should allow all cards. They created them for a reason. Players will adapt just as we have adapted to banlist
30 minutes and only X views? Farfa has fa..... No I'm not a bot just kidding. Indeed a really good video and even better discussion.
I believe checking those generic boss monsters would also allow less extreme going second cards. For example Super Poly, Droplet, DRNM can become really toxic due to the "no response" clause and even follow those bosses in the banlist IF they aren't so needed for going second.
The talk about IP specifically is something I never considered before this format, too bad it gets a double reprint because it would make SP a really fair going second tool if it got banned.
That Master Duel Synchro Snake board is nasty, Elf + Promethean looping both Formula AND IP should have one of the highest winrates in the game.
Finally what i really dislike about those generic boss monsters is how they overshadow even good archetype support. A great example is the new Melodious stuff. Tons of recovery, removal (field + gy) and protection, with huge grind capabilities, but typically you are just better with the Apollo Baronne Savage negate vomit board that if cracked you scoop. I personally blame this for 80% of the hate pendulum gets (10% boomers "too complex" 10% actually being complex)
So true!!! They shouldn't have made so many monsters this way
But to quote an unrelated UA-camr i saw that utterred a great fraze
"Maybe they'll do something about it, but they won't, they already got your money"
@@idosarts_and_krafts the "they already got your money" hit pretty hard. Not for banlist reasons but SP specifically.
I was grinding during AgOv and first week none sold their SP so I had to play a regional without it (waiting for it to come next week). I was 6-0 all 2-0 then lost the 2 last rounds specifically because 1 I didn't have a discard for Unicorn, 2 I needed a double removal. Both cases game 2 that I previously won game 1, one I lost to bricking game 3 the other lost to time.
It made me really upset that there wasn't any misplay or luck factor involved in my loss, but specifically not having SP in those cases instead of Uni.
@@babrad oof
Yeah......i get that feeling, and mind you my case was worse, cuz i (up until VERY RECENTLY) only played earth machine
Can somebody explain why Farfa is not showing the gameplay for example at 13:26?
The issue with what you're saying about needlefiber is that cards like it will always get banned eventually. As fun as it was to have around, it was busted. Cards like it shouldn't be made because as much as they'll enable creative combos, they'll also enable crap that no one wants to play against. Which eventually leads to it getting banned.
Which is why the complaints about current strong card are dumb unless said card actually stops you from doing anything (e.g. Utopic Zexal, Azathot, maybe Kali Yuga in the future). Cards that put walls to the opponent's gameplay can still be fun to play against provided that you can do something about it and there aren't too many of them.
@GaussianEntity huh? I explain why cards like Needlefiber aren't good, and your reply is that complaining about them is dumb? The issue with yugioh is that there's VERY little work to get a huge payoff. Earlier, it would take you a couple of turns to make a boss monster that needed multiple steps to summon. Even something as simple (at least these days) as Crystal Wing Synchro Dragon had a summon condition of a synchro monster being needed. It's a monster negate that can attack over any monster. Now, you can make a generic omni-negate that can destroy a card every your turn and replace itself with a combo piece if needed in the form of Baronne. Dragoon is a well designed card because despite being absurdly powerful and potentially a game ending card, it's summoning conditions are awful.
@@ramiobeid2889Nah this guy is spamming the same copypasta in other comments. It's haha stop complaining yugiboomers, the game has always been good/sh*t.
@ramiobeid2889 I don't know about that guy, but could you explain where you're coming from? Because Needlefiber isn't really that strong. A card like that is only as good as what it allows to happen. This means that if we take away its access to those cards by restricting it or banning the cards it makes, its power goes away. If you wanna say what if they make another broken card, or that it would restrict them from making "good" cards in the future, then that's what it's supposed to do. Good card designers don't want to make broken cards, and are okay with following guidelines that prevent that.
@@trancepeirce3107 Copypasta implies it's the same comment lol. Just because you don't wanna read it doesn't mean it's a copypasta.
Also, I can say "haha yugiboomers" because I'm also one.
It's not just the boss monsters, certain engines are the exact same way. Kashtira and snake eyes are both perfect examples. Runs on literally every zone in the game (snake eyes even adds another one), has effects that you just get for free every turn, etc.
Just pick one, ffs. If you're going to summon cards directly from your deck for free every turn, maybe don't also interact with the banish zone, and with the graveyard, and have literally every piece recur every other piece automatically with no resource commitment?
So ridiculous. Swordsoul, mathmech, etc. are actually strong and fair. Why is it so hard not to make literally unfair, generic BS?
Why do you censor EDOpro gameplay?
Because edo is a dog shit version of yugioh with devs who can't read and players who use deviantart cards.
Also he's probably forced to censor it because he's more than likely in konami's pocket.
In the time it took me to watch this video, one person built an OTK board with a "5-minute time limit."
See, they're a problem, obviously. But I wish the stronger archetypes in yugioh were more restrictive like say, Unchained for example. Unchained fiend locks you so the only "generic extra deck staple" you can use is mostly goddess
I *do* like generic boss monsters like Baronne for a less powerful deck like speedroid for example to give it a bit of a boost in power, giving it a better chance against meta decks
All other decks: Do a combo
Adamancipator: Get it twisted
22:00 I like how chat all agrees that it does sound cool (i agree) Farfa doesn't like rocks confirmed.
Farfa keeps interrupting the FUCKING VIDEO
I truly can’t imagine new players getting into the game, you either have to have a lot of time on your hand or you just don’t play much, you can’t even play for fun anymore because you’ll need to drop so much money to even “compete” for fun, most decks are useless and if you think you can get your cards from anywhere other than a gaming store you’re smoking, the shit is sold out within an hour of it being on the shelf where I am. It’s also just boring now, repetitive, basically no casual play, expensive, and I’ve met a few people who are odd, I can’t even go to events I just play online when I have nothing else to do.
Even playing online is frustrating. Especially for masterduel where gem prices are high and they put the UR tag on every best card on every archetype. But still there is no room for rogue decks.
In what world is it expensive to compete or have fun? Being a sheep is very expensive. Or wanting total freedom over what you want to play.
But many yugituber show how to win with 100€ Decks or even less. People top with rogue decks all the time. I play rogue exclusively.
If you dont have match up knowledge you gonna suck regardless of your deck.
@@Corey91666 Yugitubers are liars majority of the time. They want newbies going to locals to give the pros free wins cause their not playing best deck.
@@Nephalem2002 that is the dumbest thing i ever heard. They call decks like Crystal beasts trash. They wont give you all infos or things that go very far ahead of the curve but they dont lie.
Also again many deck loyalist top with random stuff like crystal beasts or earth Machine. Also who says you must top or win all the time to have fun. I played locals with mekk knights and went 1 2 1 and had fun.
Get a grip.
how do you turn a 8 minute video into half an hour
I have an idea for solution...nerf their ATK points. I know! Hear me out!
The biggest problem with these extra deck wombo combo decks is that they stop you from playing by having committed all their resources into an unbreakable board and then when you can't play, they rush you down to 0 on turn 3.
So what if they couldn't do that anymore because something like Baronne now instead of 3k only had 2k. Savage had a 2k base and could get to 2,9k with an equip etc. Not only would that make them easier to deal with by battle or mean your opponent had to play more defensively, but it would give genuine OTK decks a spot in the meta instead of being relegated to "I guess I can deal damage consistently" as their only redeeming quality. But realistically?
Ban Ancient Leaf and raise the starting LP to 12-16K Make it so losing on turn 3 becomes less likely and make games more grindy in a way that's actually fun because you can afford to not put every resource you have into making a comeback
actually agree with atk being powercrept
Just look at chaos ruler, it's been used as combo material more than anything else, but it is still a 3k beater for some reasons
The issue with generic boss monsters is specifically because they artificially inflate the power level of every deck to come that can make them. Something like Majespecter Nue is a power and consistency upgrade for ONE deck not potentially all of them lol. And when a deck already has a high power ceiling it just makes it worse.
IP is the worst extra deck monster by far! because it makes going second cards usable in going first deck breaking their design.
And yet without IP, Links would be pretty one-dimensional. See Xyz monsters. They have no Masq equivalent. They see nearly no play due to this fact unless the Xyz has some absurd effect. There's also very few tricks you can do with them that allow non-meta to compete. Banning IP is just weird when it makes Link monsters interesting.
@@GaussianEntity if only one cares makes a whole category of cards interesting that in itself is a problem.
@@BiggusThiccus Why? Why can't we have good cards? Lol. It's okay to have good cards.
@@GaussianEntity good is relative. By banning IP more cards will become viable, which means you will get more "good" cards to play with, and why people want it gone.
@@BiggusThiccus Prove it lol. If anything, the opposite is true. IP ban means Links will be less playable since cards like Knightmare Unicorn and Underworld Goddess become worse, Link monsters with Link summon effects won't be usable during the opponent's turn, and finally, you can't give protection to monsters that need it to be viable.
Well as of today he called Barron and Savage dragon getting ban
The argument of getting rid of generic boss monsters doesnt make sense to me. Because if they were to get rid of generic boss monsters to make in archtype specific boss monsters. You would essentially all still be playing the same card but with different art. Its like saying we need rota for every deck type.
omninegates boss mosnters are still bad but i agree with you that if the "negate and destroy" boss monster is Baronee or an archetype monster, who cares if the unbreakable board on turn 1 doesn't let the opponent to play anything
At least once we get a copy of baronne or savage, we don't have to buy another one for every new deck they release. It would just be another card we would have to get for every new deck. Gotta buy the new "omni negate" or "target 1 card, destroy/banish it" that they release every set along with the "add/special summon 1 lvl 4 or lower from deck"
"Bring back going second"
Tenpai :
Appo is the least of my worry for snake eyes, I can out Appo with a spell or trap or punch over, my problem is Barron and Borreload. The "negate anything" makes life hard. But I like the card art so we keep them :).
That's one of the reasons why I stopped playing Yu-Gi-Oh modern after 2018. I got extremely bored with every deck having the same boss monsters and games were essentially "can you build your board turn one and win or does your opponent have hand traps." And then it turns into "can the opponent that hand trapped you build their board and win or does the other player have hand traps." Its boring
Easiest errata for Barrone, needs a warrior as material. Accesscode, needs a cyberse. Barrel, a dragon. Make them a little less generic but still viable in a few decks
It happened with Goyo Guardian and that was banned for awhile
probably, though for acesscode specifically you'd probably have to go a step further since technically any deck that could spare the ED space for a Lanphorhynchus or smth could make that first to get a cyberse on the field before making accesscode. You might have to make summoning it work similar to transcode talker's effect so instead you could only summon it if you've only summoned cyberse monsters this turn (and potnetially last turn as well), and after you summon it you'd be cyberse locked, since its so easy to get out.
Why the hell does baronne de fleur, a level 10 a generic summon when chevalier de fleur a level 8 and seen as its weaker version requires fleur synchron???? Konami make it make sense
okay let's imagine that we ban apollousa, baronne, ip, borrell, accesscode and any other generic boss.
Stun would still exist, decks that have multiple interactions that cards in the opponent's hand (even without having any negates) would still be broken, and in the end it would be the community complaining about broken non-generic boss monsters/ modern yugioh being shit/ whoever goes first will probably winning, in other words, would technically not face the same monsters that prevent you from playing, but the game would still be the same.
Sort of. Stun is very vulnerable. A random harpy's feather duster cripples stun, same with Rageki or anything else. Stun really doesn't have extenders or even starters. They hard draw everything
Also floodgates are getting hit now on banlists if all cards you mentioned are hit then anti spell and summon limit is at 1 as well tell me what nasty broken thing we cooking as players
Why is it always one or the other. Like people can't say omnis should be banned without someone needing to interject the whole "yeah but stun." No shit. They are part of the problem too. Stop obfuscating from the point to try to keep shit as it is.
Truth is Omni's should be banned as players we know this in our hearts. The game needs it the environment of the card game needs it but konaminthe business doesn't need it. No Omnis means no greedflation for them. How can konami feed greedflation and shrinkflation without Omnis. So to answer your question that's why our answer is binary to this question we know the solution but would it be implemented by konami. I can honestly tell you right at this moment is the most generous konami is being why cause they are dieing as a company. Just remember that we the players have no power here we can only be realistic and give this answer of one or the other since we know konami won't give or do the solution.
@@spicymemes7458It's not obfuscating the point, whether or not this shit will stay the same with omnis banned or not. people will always find things to complain about, konami will always create omins/stuns or unstoppable tier 0 decks and that's how they make money.
if i had to say, things been bad for ygo for these reason :
-field spell : quirk of field spell come from the fact that it affect both player. but modern field spell 'play' like it was a continue spell
-monster card : back on old days, monster purpose is to hit field and either used as fodder for stronger one and battling. but nowadays it given too much utility. now they get to tutor stuff which is spell role, have immunity + stat booster which should be what equip do and lately can do disruption like a trap
-stats : attribute / level / rank / type still there and used but feel like forgotten concept. there nothing such fire mons weak to water mons or high level mons immune from lower level effect,
yo, why was baron never talked about before being cheap tho .. ? i mean it is powerful and all, but i just hate reprinting good cards, so that normal players will be able to buy and play them, just to ban them a few months later on the next list
Yeah that feels really bad. Baronne was fine when it was prohibitively expensive and it was all chill
People have talked about how Barrone and Savage were problems before, but now that we've gone two top decks back to back who's only game plan is to vomit extra deck monsters (SHS and Snake Eye), their problems have become far more noticeable, and there are far fewer excuses for their existence
Using money as a gatekeeper for "skill" is now not a shield anymore
@@DehaloveBecause at the time the decks that could make it were few and didn't actually need her at all times. Only a handful of people wanted her gone at the time due to those few decks. Now she's being made more easily in more decks which also coincided with a cheaper reprint of her.
the only problem now is all these new decks have no locks, its not baroone or savage fault its modern yugioh design.
How to fix the main problem cards in this vid:
Borreload Savage: errata: Needs Rokket Synchron and Dragon non-tuners
Baronne: errata: Needs Fluer Synchron, that's it.
Apollousa: Just ban it, too generic to still be legal as an omni-negate body
I think the idea of banning generic ED cards is the worst I have seen so far. The next step would be banning every generic card and having archetypes to get their personal copy of these cards. So you can't recycle those cards in multiple decks and you have to buy every single card you switch an archetype. Plus the reprints would take forever and after a few years these cards would be extremely expensive. It is just a money printing guarantee for konami and also playwise you have to know so many more cards. I think in the end only Konami wins and the players complaining now would cheer because now it is not Baronne endboard but a card that's exactly like Baronne but has a different Name.
Barron should be errated like how Goyo Guardian got. Make a wind tunner to summon it
Baronne's deck doesn't have any Wind tuners. It has Light and Dark tuners.
@@johnofalltrades8266Good opportunity to make one for future legacy support then.
1:20 into the video and I highly agree with the takes (especially the Masq ban). Literally if the generic Extra Deck goodstuff was banned, Snake-Eyes wouldn't be Tier 0
No Branded would be. In fact Branded would be eternally the best most uncounterable deck and like 90% of decks would be completely unplayable especially rogue. I don’t get the logic here
@@FrostReave
So? Just hit Branded and done if it is problematic. I don't see why it has to be a mutually exclusive thing that you can only have one or the other.
As for the argument of "Think about the Rogue Decks hurt by the banning of generic strong Extra Deck monsters", have you ever considered why those Decks are Rogue in the first place and why generic ED monsters wouldn't help with that? Rogue Decks often lack in either consistency or the ability to play through disruption, and Extra Deck Boss Monsters will not help them be better there. All it does is make them able to make similar boards but be worse at doing it than the Top Decks, which is not a thing that a Rogue Deck wants to be known for. At that point, why not just play the Top Decks when they just do what Rogue Decks can do but better? And that's basically a major point of Farfa's commentary on the video: nobody wants to play a Deck that basically does the same thing as other Decks unless if it can do it better. They want to play Decks that feel distinct and not have to rely on doing what other Decks already do in order to play.
That's why you have many people in the Yugioh sphere complaining about generic Extra Deck goodstuff cards that invalidate the existence of other cards because it invalidates the identity of so many Decks and makes the game significantly less interesting to play. You can argue that the game is "balanced" around these titans existing, but clearly there aren't many who are happy with that balance if there's videos like the one shown off here that exist
I don’t agree with archetype locks but I do think there should be some type of lock on a lot of these cards. I think infernoble is the best example of a good combo deck in terms of game design because while it creates boards that aren’t healthy gamestates it only gets there if you allow it. There’s a warrior lock and a fire lock implemented into the combo at different stages, and it utilizes its own boss monster for its main combo function.
Hot take errata all boss monsters to be used with their archetype
And ban the remaining generic's or build archetypes around them and then errata them.
I think Quasar "gimmicky deck" got like 2 to 4 cards on the banlist on his lonesome
If people want Maxx C ban. This card should go with those generic bosses.
.
What the middle? People forget about "Type". I think Type is the best thing to make the card less generic but players can still be creative. Or maybe some unique restriction like Spright, but make the lock harder. Because sometimes you can still IP to apollosa or Cat suddenly summon floldgates.
If you didn’t imply Maxx C was justified because of generic negates then you might have had a point.
I'll do both. Not kidding. I will destroy every copy of Maxx C if it meant losing Baronne, Apollousa, Savage, and Masquerena. Throw the floodgates in there too. I have no favorites.
I'd say blackwing is that perfect in-between where you have ceratin small locks not to make the deck too generic but has a lot of different ways to play and build the deck
People whine about generic bosses but here's a challenge: name a good Synchro boss for every level. Name a good Xyz boss monster for every rank. Name a good Link boss monster for every rating.
All of the "problematic" boss monsters are usually the only monster in that category. Baronne is the *first* good level 10 Synchro monster that is completely generic. Seriously, go find another. You won't. Same with the others.
I don't disagree with you on that, but we are also at a point in Yu-Gi-Oh where levels, ranks, and link ratings don't really matter because of how easy it is to put bodies on the field. Like if tomorrow they came out with a rank they came out with a level 11 synchro that had a double omni negate The same decks that play Baronne now would definitely just play that and figure out a new way to make it
@@BoBnfishy Sadly this is a consequence of the link era changing the game to making bodies on the board worth something inherently. It also doesn't help that tuners become easier and easier to summon with every new archetype.
What about limiting to 5 or 6 summons (Normal and special) in your turn and 1 or 2 max on the opponent's turn?
The Nibiru event was interesting (if no one found a way to negate it/took advantage of it) since it was really hard to pull off an omni negate in your 1st turn, and the games took 5 to 7 turns with lots of interactions.
Of course more adjustments need to be made, but maybe that's a start.
I was literally just talking about how if they banned Baronne / Apo and the rest of the generic negate crew, they could ban Maxx C and just let Nibiru run wild and free. The only thing enabling combo decks to combo forever unchecked is early negates being built. You take away generic access to those and suddenly combo decks are getting rocks thrown at them left and right.
On top of that, in a Maxx C format, going first and building negates to protect your Maxx C resolution is really powerful. Nothing worse than playing into a big negate board and THEY Maxx C you, you have the out but then they can just negate it. Feels terrible.
Plus hitting negates and Maxx C would overall just increase the fun of the game by a lot.
Master Duel Andy
Maxx C discarder
Generic to summon means you get a specific effect for an archetype, specific requirements to summon means you get a generally good effect, seems like the way to design extra deck monsters to me
Fuck it, increases LP to 30000 (and bans ancient leaf) Accescode wont otk anymore😁
bold of you to assume I won't pump a Numeron Dragon to 32k with dugares and still OTK
Tenpai Dragons can deal 39000 damage in a single turn.
@@Latias38 yes so 30000 is the sweetspot, otk deck could otk but snake-eyes wont
I'd honestly be down. Sounds baller
Thank you for linking the original video in the description!
Branded is filled with a bunch of custom cards though.
It brought Bystials (especially Lubellion - ugh), Mirrorjade, and Rindbrumm into the game. None of these cards are really fair imo. It generates far too much advantage, some of which can dodge all hand traps by setting or placing cards into your spell and trap zone. It recycles cards from the banishment, has a searchable hand trap negate, cards that add themselves back to hand, etc.
I ash the branded fusion and set D-barrier.....branded what now?
the only unfair thing i see about mirrorjade is the bs effect "if you get rid of me, i destroy all your progress end of turn so u better otk"
@@Dori_Dorifto Mirrorjade and other cards can SS an Albaz from deck to fuse away one of your opponent's monsters. The deck has an absurd amount of recovery and interruption. Every turn you will lose a piece of your board or GY by card effect, I disagree with Farfa, the deck isn't balanced because it has too many ways to remove cards, that will just flat out kill most decks.
@@leeeyles1864 how many times has that happened in a Game you have played? Because if your branded players are summoning albaz from deck and fusing with your field by going -1, this is a low elo problem
Right when Farfa said watch this an Ad started playing. I was so confused.😂
Yes good cards are destroying Yu-Gi-Oh
Breh... Every subsequent main set release breaks the game, somewhat.
That's what this feels like 😂. Snake eye out here with every card going +2 but the issue is somehow bosses that all require input for normal decks
*generic
You dropped this, king
@@spicymemes7458 sorry my bad
The little face in shock master actually terrified me
Bring back back-and-forth: Indeed: Release Tear!
The only correct answer. You don't need to break boards if you combo T0.
19:34 farfa out of context
I remember people used to laugh at me in 2018 for saying borrelsword should’ve been banned im so glad people are finally seeing my position
Still laughing at u dw
Borrelsword might be overtuned, but imo it's what generic ED monsters should be : Monsters that are good for 1 thing so you use them to make up for your deck's weaknesses.
@@DeepSolid43 and I’m laughing at you melonhead
@@dudono1744 No. As long as Borrelsword and Accesscode exist every deck can easily otk for 0 cost.
Borrelsword is fine because you have to commit 3+ effect monsters into it, so if you fail to otk you end up in a unfavourable position. However anything beyond that powerlevel is indeed problematic.
The middle ground is that extra deck monsters must require one of the materials to either be the same type or the same attribute; that way you can't just splash baronne into a dark attribute main deck.
I'm legit sick and tired of this bloody argument.
No, it doesn't matter that the end board is the same. The decks play differently and have different strength and weaknesses. If you go to stop SHS with Droll they pass, if you go stop SE with droll you're doing jack shit the majority of times.
People keep saying all the combo decks end on the same exact board or baronne, savage, apo. Really? Adamancipator would end on dragite and beast with IP or baronne, SHS can fucking FTK you, Freaking Vaylantz end on secret village and a flood on top of apo, sometimes they don't even make apo they make avramax, Drytron was sitting on herald of ultimateness, mannadium is making dis pater and cross sheep with baronne.
Even trying to deal with any of these decks is different. Because they are different decks. Just play the deck that makes those the most efficient? Please show me where was Apo under Tear 0, where was savage under Tear 0, cause I remember the best thing you could make was Avramax because it was untargetable. Hell you want a more modern example, Tell me why SHS who is the most efficient deck to make them isn't prefered versus Snake Eyes who majority have stopped playing the synchro version?
Removes identity is a bull argument. Because it's missing the biggest thing about an archetypes identity, which isn't the playstyle but THE CARDS THEMSELVES. Not every deck has the same amount of plays they can perform or the same amount of synergies , it is the unique combination that gives the archetype it's identity and not just that you crush balls for mannadium.
The issue those generic cards have is that there are not contested enough on their spot, there are like 3 level 10 synchros worth playing, one is an otk tool, 1 is baronne, and the last one is a banish effect. Obviously baronne is going to win the majority of time. Link 4+ on the other hand are more contested, with avramax, apo, zeroboros, borrelsword, Goddess, amblowhale, zealantis, that new salad link 4, accesscode, but as you see apo is the only interruption and zealantis as I learned who doubles as an otk tool.
Didn't need generic support for tear when they didn't care what interactions you played when there end goal was fusing from the grave.....oh you negated shorten and sent it to the grave? Second effect I fuse get kit mill and win big anyways.....oh you ghost belled? Well I activate the second name I mill's and fuse anyway....that's why tear didn't bother with anything other then tear and things that milled or shuffled because it was a archtype made to be good.
@@yamiangelous Was talking about decks that where fighting against tear but tear did have generics.
MD specifically they played a zoodiac package for zeus, they played redoer to fuse on the opp turn, dweller for the mirror, elf to keep milling with merrli, mudragon and dracostpaelia just to have some fusions. Then they had unique ones depending the game plan, baronne if they where on diviner, Goddess to out avramax, Sprind to send merrli, Chaos ruler if they played destrudo, Garura if they played super poly, beatrice if they played a warrior package with the bystials, Winda if they played some shaddols, Dark law for those who were on masked change 2, some god forshaken souls where on kots for caliga, now it is used for the dark world fusion. Now also they are on AFD with revolution synchron. Additionally never stuck in MD but danger tear was on Curious, in TCG it also played knightmare gryphon.
Yes but that's my point all those cards aren't playing in there archtype, because they let's face it weren't given the support they should have.
A generic card shouldn't be some ultimate boss monster anyone can use it should be support to help with your archtype.....
"What is the point of building new archetypes, when the best way to play them is to vomit out the same 4-5 boss monsters and call it a day?"
We gon' pretend as if we haven't been doing that since this game's inception? 💀
One imperm stops apolousa she's not banable
It also stopped Arise-heart but the mf is also banned. Cards having counters doesn't make them less frustrating
@@juksleo6257 arise is a floodgate in a floodgate deck that should stay banned forever
@alexandergeorgiev74 apollousa just means "convert any 3 monsters into 3 negates" what is the fundamental difference?
Just draw the out 😂
@@juksleo6257 apolousa can't negete spell and traps Barrone and savage should be banned
If generic monsters were banned or rewrote, it doesn't feel like it would make the game better, but just kill a lot of decks off. Definitely considering a lot of synchro decks, considering a lot of them don't have good boss monsters or good spell or traps to put up a fight.