Pressure Testing The Firebox! Pennsylvania A3 Switcher, Part 10
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- Опубліковано 15 вер 2024
- This episode on Blondihacks, I’m pressure testing another boiler chunk! Exclusive videos, drawings, models & plans available on Patreon!
/ quinndunki
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Pressure vessels are dangerous. This video is for entertainment purposes only, and you should not use any information contained herein to build your own pressure vessel. It is your responsibility to know what you are doing, and to conform to all local laws and regulations.
Hey everyone! A couple of common questions on this one. No, flexing the copper does not damage the joints. Silver solder is stronger and more flexible than copper. You can fold a joint 180° and it will not fail. I recommend reading Kozo’s The Art Of Silver Soldering for the details. Second, yes, the firebox is subjected to full boiler pressure. It is fully inside the boiler. That’s how locomotive boilers work. The firebox must withstand full pressure.
I need to go back to the start to get my head around this, I will soon need to build a Boiler for a traction engine, and I guess an understanding of how it works would be an advantage 😂
Great pin!
I'm impressed!
Unscheduled hydroforming is still better than rapid unscheduled disassembly.
But not quite as exciting - unless of course it’s your boiler, lol
Thank you. I hoped to see RUD in a comment
Also engine-rich exhaust, as seen a couple of days ago above Boca
indeed.
After seeing what happens after 200psi of boost finds the weak spot in a highly modified diesel engine, I agree..........
Quinn, I want to thank you for being a role model for my daughter. She's 7, and she and I always look forward to your videos. It's wonderful to learn from someone competent, patient, and funny. Thank you so much!
Tell her I said hi! 👋
I have always enjoyed seeing ladies in the tech fields, I wish there were more. They bring a somewhat different perspective to projects, different lines of thought and ways of doing things. Neil, I hope your daughter continues her interest in the sciences.
I'm really close with my daughter, she's now 45, and we got close when she was five, and needed the strong support. You will reap the reward for decades to come, Lord willing.
The bottom of the firebox visibly deformed and you were well above test pressure, but the gasket still remained water-tight. That's some good material.
Yah very impressive stuff!
One of our steam club members built the A3 years ago and when it came to pressure testing the boiler he found a couple “weeping” joints so instead of using some powdered ginger to plug the weeps he decided to reheat the offending joints and he overheated the boiler which promptly fell apart !
After a couple days of crying he started on a brand new boiler and this one passed its pressure test with no tears.
How does powder ginger come into play as a sealant?
I know clubs want “soldered” joints, but there are heat proof epoxies and other chems that perfectly seal boiler issues for professionals. I wouldn’t hesitate to use them, rather than ruin a hobby boiler by reheating joints.
Love the unit testing, Quinn! Now the trick will be to silver solder all the pieces together without impacting any of the existing, already tested, joints! That is what gave me the most trouble toward the end. But with dogged persistence, I got there. I'm certain you will do far better! You have a lot more boiler experience under your belt. Silver soldering big boilers is kind-of a different animal than silver soldering smaller parts together. A whole different learning curve. And you seem to be doing it beautifully! Thanks for sharing it all with us Quinn!
Thanks Kim! I tried to congratulate you over on the forum, but it won’t let me create an account. The leak fixing stage is always the most challenging, but you did great.
@@Blondihacks sorry to hear that :( It should let you create an account. If you LMK what your handle you use, I can make sure it does. The system does require that you reply to an email to verify. So if that verification email gets flagged as spam (which unfortunately happens quite frequently), you might not see it and your join request gets dropped after a couple of weeks. If you wanna try again and watch for that verification email in your spam folder? Or let me know the handle you use. Sorry for the difficulty there. And thanks for the congrats! It was a challenge for me for sure!
@@Kim-kl5jh I signed up under Blondihacks. It didn't even send me a verification email- the registration page just immediately said "you are spam, go away". I've been called worse, but that still stings a little. 😀 I sent a note to the Registration Help form, but I don't know how often that gets checked. It's been a few days and I never heard back.
Congratulations on reaching another milestone!
Yikes! All that "ominous foreshadowing" was scary and stressful. Haven't been that frightened since the last "Paranormal Activity" movie. 🤣 Okay maybe I missed the last movie in that series but I saw the others. I think there were some flared fire tubes in the third movie.
I'm honestly amazed this passed with flying colors. Not that I think your silver solder work is shoddy, but you yourself admitted having some reservations about some of the joins last episode. So glad there weren't any problems.
Got to admit when I saw the sides bent at the start I was worried it was scrap. Great series, can't wait for the next instalment
Best intro ever :)
I used to work in drainage where I dealt with
"surprise water features"
have a great day Quinn!
my favourite machinist alongside tot :)
best wishes to all
Wow!
This test immediately impressed me as being extremely ambitious, but after seeing you make it happen I understand why you invested the effort. Big payoff in peace of mind and confidence.
As usual, you clearly articulated your process and I learned some good stuff. Thank you for that.
20:55 OMG you can actually see the pipes flare out as you pump! Lol
The highlight of the week!
The Etch-a-Sketch metaphor has profound implications about the way machining influenced our interface to the world.
“Sledgehammer of hole making tools”, yes. Indeed.
That was a courageous test you completed there Quinn; I am so pleased it worked out for you. Onward and upwards.
I'm sure it's a fantastic feeling knowing that all those joints are doing what they're supposed to do.
I love that you’re juggling two projects and giving us the extra problem solving brain tingles.
I admire your guts and your tenacity on this; heaving on the handle must have been stressful.
You've done a great job showcasing this whole process, it's tough in the small size and space you're working in. I've only seen it in "life-size" and that thirty or more years ago.
Unscheduled hydroforming, thats what I was hoping for in the last Furze video .. Blondiehacks to the rescue!
With nothing but good vibes and positive waves, if the build should irreparably fail you still possess the most unique hash pipe known to humanity.
Yay!! It's Blondihacks time!!!
In a previous life, I used to do insurance surveys on boilers, from small autoclaves to huge power station boilers. After repairs or at the 5 year inspections, we used to hydraulically test them. These were boilers that the operating staff knew would need testing at "regular" intervals and knew that it would be tested at that inspection. I'd say over half of them wouldn't have the correct blanks and fittings ready to do the hydro test and we'd end up with some far from favourable test setups. Your setup was pretty damn good for what you were trying to achieve. But you made the mistake so many make, you only needed to ensure the there were no obvious leaks and your thoughts on 60PSI on what was an "inside out" test were probably right. But I have seen people many times decide that for whatever reason, that the 150% limit on the working test pressure was not enough, so they aimed higher, in one case almost 200% of working pressure before I managed to stop them. Over pressure on a test can lead to damage just as fatal to the boiler as it failing in service, although with a lot less danger to the operator. Only ever test at the minimum over pressure you can get away with. I have had a couple of boilers that needed to be renewed that on inspection were in such poor condition. But putting in a new boiler is time-consuming and expensive. So we derated them from a working pressure of 150PSI to a new working pressure of 75PSI with a hydro test at 115PSI. This does cause other issues, but both sites were able to still work at these lower limits until new boilers could be fitted. Anyway, only hydro to the manufacturer's or designers' recommendations.
Thanks for sharing your experience! Just to be clear, in model engineering, testing to 200% for new construction is the standard because these model boilers are built with enormous safety margins in material thickness and strength. Subsequent periodic tests over the life of the boiler are done to 150% working pressure. Your point that more is not necessarily better is well made though.
Actually I think the sledgehammer is the sledgehammer of making holes :)
Another great video! I always learn something and appreciate you including all the mistakes and recoveries! That’s where the real learning happens, IMHO.
That 1/8" gasket from McMaster is very good stuff. 1/8" seems to be the sweet spot. It's hard to get a good seal along a length (more than an inch or so unsupported) with the 3/16" thickness, and 3/32" doesn't quite squish enough.
Ten thousand thumbs up,thanks for your hard work.
That WAS interesting.
And a success!
Thanks, and Meow to Sprocket.
Can’t control the Earth’s atmospheric pressure….at least not yet. I can’t wait to see that project.
I was just thinking about how I haven't seen a new Quinn episode. Perfect timing.
Glad to see it all sealed tight like Ft. Knox! Thanks for bringing us along!
Quin this was great to see this test and how you go about the process of doing a pressure test on a boiler. You have made something that appears difficult to achieve more achievable which has put me on the steam engine building path.
Could you apply some "ANTI-PRESSURE" or vacuum to the inside to increase the natural external atmospheric pressure as an alternative test? If it holds vacuum is good. Like air-conditioning work.
Problem is you can only get a maximum theoretical pressure of 14 psi (atmospheric pressure at sea level) with that approach.
You have a basic misunderstanding of what vacuum is, similar to what many silly flat earthers and others believe. Vacuum cannot SUCK, it has no power and there is NO SUCH thing as ANTI-PRESSURE, or NEGATIVE PRESSURE. Removing air can only create a VOID, which is then acted upon by ATMOSPHERIC PRESSURE, it can be NO HIGHER. Since 14.7 PSI is the highest you can get from gravity induced atmospheric pressure, that is far from adequate to represent testing of locomotive boiler pressure of many hundred PSI.
Air conditioning work uses both positive pressure testing with refrigerant and vacuum testing with suction pumps and gauges, but at no point can the vacuum testing be greater than 14.7 PSI, in fact they test at a MICRON level, a much, much smaller amount of pressure (Micrometer pressure) than full atmospheric pressure, again not useful for locomotive boiler/firebox testing.
Quinn,
That was a great result.
More so, because the plates/tubes were being tested ‘in reverse’ to the normal pressure direction(s).
👍👍
Robert
Seeing this makes me want to suggest you build a battleship next!😅❤
LOVE THE CI/CD approach to locomotive building.
if you drill a hole to the inside of your holesaw, assuming you are not needing the slug, it will allow for the chips to clear out much better.
I love seeing these milestones on this project.
Such a satisfying video! Having seen all the work you've put into this over this series of videos, it's great to see that it's working as designed.
Thanks for the video. You had me gripping my I Pad when you were pumping more pressure up, but thankfully nothing bad happened.
My nerves are shot watching you pump up the pressure
With regard to de-pressurizing a boiler after a hydro test, you would be surprised how little water must be released to bring the pressure to 0 psig.
I’ve done hydro tests on large water tube utility size boilers that hold hundreds or even thousands of gallons of water for testing, and to release pressure only a few gallons of water are let out.
Fantastic effort another step closer.
Very impressive work all round on this project!
I love that flat gasket material. I've used it to seal several IP68 enclosures with injection molded parts. It tends to be more forgiving than an o-ring for low/medium pressures and way easier to assemble.
Great work, great test showing your great work. Interesting how pressure works in all directions and being able to see the results from it.
Thanks for sharing Quinn.
Imperial Fist shake! I did not knew you are in Warhammer 40k...
The machine is my temple. Each one a sacred shrine. I name each piston blessed, and every gear divine.
Always enjoy your videos , thank you Quinn
Congratulations . Another way point successfully accomplished.
Man you are thorough. 👍
Great work Quinn. So please the pressure test worked out OK.
Unscheduled hydroforming got me lol
Best cutting fluid for aluminium is weld spray, the anti stick spray that you use for MIG nozzle and mask. Even cleans already aluminium blocked carbide bits.
That was a lot of work but you have to feel good about the results. You have a solid baseline to build further on now. Nice.
See ya next week!
Ominous foreshadowing.
Having just rewatched your scriber video I loved seeing it in use here! I'm definitely going to give a shot at making one for an early project while I learn on my Sherline lathe
Thanks Quinn, that was very interesting. Helps a lot!
So you had unscheduled hydroforming, just like SpaceX just experienced a bit of unscheduled trenching work on their Stage 0. This is how you go forward, by testing and finding the problems.
I am enjoying your project quite a bit. Will I ever build something like this, probably not, but it's fun to watch your processes. And yes, testing is stressful, but once completed the stress is gone, you know that it is good and so can proceed to the next step.
Great video Quinn.
One brave machinist there!
Nice! Hopefully this works correctly when you do the final assembly.
You are very careful and for the right reasons
Great work Quinn as usual.👍👍👍
Great one Quinn, thank you !
Well, that was high stress!
Well done Quinn.👍👍
Hi Quinn, this comment is after the fact but could you have used “A Bondo auto body filler to fit the spacers tighter to the boiler? Please keep the great job and I really enjoy your videos
WOW, just wow !
Mike
You did very well. 👍👍
Well done.
Thankyou 👍
Wow. Good job. 😊
Water is great but has a large molecule. Oil is smaller but is messy.
Gas pressure testing is often dangerous at high pressures BUT Helium and Hydrogen both have extremely small molecules and can pressure test at very low pressures. Hydrogen testing is not as dangerous as it sounds with just a modicum of caution.
Gas testing can either be submerged or "snooped" to check for bubbles.
Industrial valves are tested at 50 lbs of nitrogen. So helium can show the same results at much less pressure.
Welded foil diaphragms are tested at 30 psi and will be subjected to hundreds of pounds in normal use.
I think there are two parts to the pressure vessel testing: you don't want it to leak, and you don't want it to catastrophically fail. Testing with helium at low pressure will be great for establishing the presence/absence of tiny leaks. I guess you could put it under water to see where the helium bubbles came out.
But you have to test at high pressure to have confidence you're not going to get catastrophic failure. And for that you want a non-expandable test fluid like water or oil so there is no energy stored if it fails.
I don't know how much tiny leaks matter in a boiler. I guess it's embarrassing to turn up to a steam fair having made an incontinent one that dribbles water everywhere, but the main thing is knowing you're not going to get a dangerous failure, and for that you need testing at high pressure.
@@hollo9571 True but she said that she was confident in the strength and that she was only looking for leaks.
And true you can submerge it but a noncarrosive bubble solution like "Snoop" will find microscopic leaks.
And if you use a halogenated gas like AC refrigerant you can use electronic leak detectors.
Hydrotesting is best used for integrity testing more than leak. AND can actually deform integrity and CAUSE leaks.
@@hollo9571 Did you watch her video? She SAID that she was confident in the integrity. ALL she was testing was for leaks.
@@3tpculpWRONG. I don’t care what she said or implied, for a working boiler, you MUST PASS INTEGRITY/PRESSURE testing at high pressure, NOT LEAK TESTS. The boiler must not only not leak, it must be held at HIGH PRESSURE for a length of TIME, and indicate NO loss of hydrostatic pressure during that time - PERIOD. This firebox test is simply a preliminary test of the FIREBOX portion of the BOILER system, and will require a later test of INTEGRITY/PRESSURE. Any “predictive” type testing at lower pressures as you propose is not allowed or advised.
@@hollo9571You are correct about all the high pressure testing necessary, some kind of low pressure predictive tests are not adequate. And as far as boilers NO “little leaks” are allowed and are very dangerous. You’re not going to have any “little dribbles” under pressure, you’re going to have jets of very hot steam, bad on the outside, and catastrophic if they occur into the firebox as they can cause explosion. You may have little dribbles of water here and there in the extended pipes or valves further outside the boiler as steam recondenses, but other than at the cylinders where it is expelled with cylinder cocks, it is to be avoided and fixed.
At some point, you just need to have faith in your joints (or welds, or whatever it may be). Watching this series (and some of your other work), if handed the project, I wouldn't have even tested it before moving forward.
Nice video. Testing was very well thought out.
Methylated spirits weirdly works very good on aluminium as a cutting fluid too. Maybe something to try out next time.
Stefan Gotteswinter uses isopropanol. same idea. something to do with the evaporation helps it
WD40 is kerosene with some extra flavor as far as I know, and both are not very toxic and not very easy to ignite accidentally. I would avoid using any kind is spirits as fumes are toxic and very flammable.
Thanks Quinn
Do this for a living. My new call sign is "sketchy hydro test"!
Another great video, and thanks! For those of us who might at some point down the line tackle a project of this nature, scope and complexity, would you consider keeping track of the "hours machining" into the construction/build. I'm guessing you just had a laugh because I know that when you add the complexity of making the build into a video the time is tripled. That said, I am guessing that you are likely into the project for 75 to 90 hours at this point. From my reading, a boiler (depending on size and complexity) is typically 100 to 140 hours and it appears that you are on track for that. It would just be nice to know prior to investing in or embarking on a project like this what the time commitment might actually look like. Thanks again and I am looking forward to the next Blondihacks video. Cheers from Ontario. Derek
any quick research into these live steam locomotives shows construction times of many years, even decades. So unless one has no job or business to get in the way, these builds take a very long time. Most builders are lucky to complete a half dozen units if that.
I wasn’t thinking of a tapered plug, rather I thought you would cut to fit the inner diameter, and put in some O-ring grooves. 😂 So you aren’t reading my mind, nor I yours. I 😅
After sealing the openings could the fire box be buried in sand in a fully inclosed box? With fine sand, tamped down, the fire box would be effectively clamped on all side and immobilized. Painting the seams with water-color paint would locate any leaks after testing.
One really needs to see any leaks visually in real time, not just possible evidence of leaking after the fact.
succesfull test, congrats ! Nice work !!
Does your check valve have room in it for a spring to hold the ball down?
Coming out nicely
The Solder Queen!
2:33 Why does "STAY NUT - NO FLUX YET" sound like a motivation poster? xD
you had me at sketchy 😆
Could you have put a flat on the fire hole mandrill, which then allows the water to flow to the seam?
greed is one of the seven deadly sins
Thank you!!
Great result 😀
Hi Quinn!
Well done.
I wonder: if you had got to the stage of testing the final assembly and then found a leak would Radweld stand a chance of fixing it? It's stuff for car radiators. The idea is that it solidifies in small leaks, plugging them. Egg white is supposed to work too. When I was young and could only afford clapped-out old bangers I tried it a couple of times. It seemed to work for a day or two but it was no substitute for a new radiator.
Not under pressure. This thing has to be certified to 200psi, radweld and egg white aren't going to cut it!
There are many heat proof epoxies and adhesives that are tested to 500 PSI and high temperatures that would work, but you need access to the actual leak, and these chemicals are sometimes not approved for use by certain authorities - but are in use professionally for some uses.
only british gentlemen from the 1800's could come up with a part and call it a stay-bolt
Yes, an interesting video on everything... I guess the straightening out the tubes and the side walls doesn't put any stress on the solder joints for the reason you mentioned that the copper is soft? I was trying to understand how that didn't affect the solder joints when doing that. Maybe Silver Solder is stronger than that? I'm used to the electronics solder and if you moved a component that is canted over, even just a bit, you'll break shtuff...
Silver solder is stronger and more flexible than copper. If it wasn’t it wouldn’t work for the job
@@Blondihacks That makes sense. 🚂 Oh I forgot to say: Congrats on your pressure test, I'm glad that it wasn't too bad... See you next week!
Top job Quinn 👍
If it's expecting pressure from the outside, why didn't you put the inside under vacuum and check for that decaying?
Awesome as always!
But I keep wondering: How did they do it on life-size locomotives? How did they do the pressuire testing?
Very carefully
You build the entire thing, including the firebox within the boiler, then you fire it up and test it with water pressure internally initially, then of course you then test it as it would be in use. The difference is you can crawl inside or out and fix individual leaks almost anywhere, that is not possible on a tiny model locomotive (You must sometimes just start over on model boilers). There are many videos on UA-cam of steam locomotives being built or rebuilt.