Little Turtle refused to lead the western confederacy at the battle of the fallen timbers. He said that Wayne, who always posted sentries and sent out scouts, never slept and could not be defeated. He went to battle as an ordinary warrior.
@Stanisław Śmierćyk Unbeatable is a strong word. Without ANY information or too low to be effective no army can function. Why would they even take defensive position if they have no info on the advancing enemy? Battle of Britain was won due to "scouting" and information. There are so many ways this battle could had happened. It could had been fought at river crossing or in dense wood or the native could had used some tricks to split the US army. For me scouting and positioning had won this battle, also ignorance of the natives on military strategy.
Lived near the Wabash and knew this story. Very well documented and History Guy went into it in deeper detail than others. Chief Little Turtle got all the tribes together to fight, but after the victory all the tribes wanted to go back to their areas. Chief Little Turtle said they had to stay united from now on in order to defeat more to come. He in essences said, united we stand divided to fall. But the tribes refused and all disbanded. Chief Little Turtle said the war was lost because of this and so it was.
Thank you for an informative and interesting video. As a native of Ohio, I have extensively studied the "Indian Wars' and Ohio History. You presented a good deal of content without proselytizing. The facts are the facts and you did a good job. Thank you.
a very interesting period of time to be sure. I know we didnt spend a whole lot of time on it in my american history class through school. Probably about a week was spent and it mostly focused on the battle of Tippecanoe as it led to William Henry Harrison being elected to president.
The only official "massacre" in US history is the Boston Massacre so no idea what you are referring to. The generic massacre term usually refers to slaying people while they are running or surrendering
The legacy of this battle is remembered on the arms of the 5th US Artillery. It is credited with five campaigns against the Indians. These are commemorated by five arrows on the regiment's coat of arms. The arrow for this campaign, in which virtually every cannoneer died at the guns, is broken.
It's a bit of history...not every 'battle honour' requires glory. Read it and remember that your country is built, like so many of strife and oppression....in some ways a good thing, in others a bad thing...it just IS!!
Thank you for this excellent presentation. It is rare to find programming upon this aspect of American history. I also find your sense of justice towards unacknowledged heroes and those, unfortunately , that were villains is refreshingly dispassionate, and therefore, fair.
I think I must've inherited my love of accurate history from my father. (After I did a paper of the "Sioux wars", he encouraged me to read "Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee". Enough said.) I REALLY like this series; it seems to address history as past events, not as an apology for the actions of the people who ended up writing it. Thank you, thank you, thank you!
Living in the area, I've visited the fallen timbers memorial and battle site several times. Leaving an offering at turkeyfoot rock in honor of the brave warriors who fought there
This was America’s version of the Battle of Adwa: Underestimated natives equipped with modern weapons attacked a large group of exposed, unprepared colonists and nearly annihilated them! Moral of the story - underestimating your enemies will result in grave consequences…
Thank you for making this video. I first heard about St. Clair's Defeat when I read "500 Nations" (phenomenal book for anyone looking to get a primer on North American Indians, complete with great contemporary artwork and other illustrations).
There is a trilogy of books by Allan Eckert that really covers this time in history. I really recommend The Frontiersman, Wilderness Empire, Gateway to Empire and Twilight of Empire.
I grew up In Coldwater, Ohio which is about ten miles from the location of the Battle of the Wabash in present day Fort Recovery, Ohio (named by Mad Anthony Wayne one of the most under rated Military Commanders in U.S. History. To this day we hold the Native American leaders Little Turtle, Blue Jacket and Buckangahela as commanders of great skill and courage and our proud that we had such worthy and honorable opponents.
Hope to stop and have a look this summer, my Sister is over in Maria Stein. Just finished the David McCullough book The Pioneers, it gives a pretty good account of the battle.
@@Mottleydude1 You don’t look like a Motley Dude. If that’s your photo you look like an ancestor of that battle. I’ll have to check that book out. Thank you.
I just found your channel. I have listened to a lot of your content and must say much of that content was never taught in any of my history classes. Further more, I really appreciate how you explain the consequences of the content continued to affect the future. Great channel. Well done.
The expedition was doomed to fail. Half the force was men who had no military experience and discipline at all. Due to supply problems, the force left weeks behind schedule, into winter weather. Desertions were rampant. The evening of November 3rd, the expedition set up camp so late, they didn’t even build any defensive works. It was a disaster waiting to happen. It took 3 weeks for news of St.Claire’s defeat to reach President Washington in New York. Washington was furious, and there were many who wanted St.Claire Courtmartialed, but Washington remembered St.Claire’s service during the Revolution, and had him retired.
I have seen a few channels of history, and I consider this one the Best...Informative, very well summerized, it reveals the background and the aftermath of the historic events..I´m a guy that loves history, and I´ve started to follow this channel regularly...
I enjoy your little history snippets, and watch regularly. A very good show,overall, and extremely accurate in your data. ( Yes, I too am a history nerd...er...buff. ) However. (Isn't there always one of those? ) I am of the opinion that the forces were very evenly matched, with the Natives woodland skills making up for slightly less firepower. Taking nothing away from the leadership skills of Mad Anthony Wayne , but there had to be a winner, and on that given day he was the one. Opinion only. I am a fairly long standing subscriber, and expect the pleasure of many more little rides past historical way points. Thank you, Sir.
John H Fox , Wayne had scouts (Chickasaw?) that advised him to hold off engaging the enemy for a day or more, knowing that the natives prefer to fight with empty stomachs. Gut wound survival is better accomplished with empty bowels. There's an account given from the natives side by a white captive adoptee by the name of "Indian" George Ash that mentioned many natives leaving to return to their villages before the fight began, maybe for the want of food or to feed their families. Whatever it was, Wayne was well advised.
Here's a link to George Ash's story.... books.google.com/books?id=mYOgYkimbzgC&pg=PA193&lpg=PA193&dq=indian+george+ash&source=bl&ots=x3UQYYyLv1&sig=ACfU3U2GheYYz-Fv9qI7ejpI6dxarJnLgw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiKgt6lwszjAhWVZ80KHcZCCXQ4ChDoATACegQIBhAB#v=onepage&q=indian%20george%20ash&f=falseHere's
Robert Tinsley - 1924, I think that was when Geronimo's grandson and a few others raided a gas station and rode off into history. If you want a good book on the Apache wars try - "Death on the Desert: The fifty years war for the great South West." au. Paul I. Wellman.
Great video!!!! Have heard of this battle before, but it would usually be a foot-note in some type of book I would be reading about American westward expansion. Having been living west of the Mississippi River for over 25+ years, am more interested in the Plains Indians Wars. Visited my brother in Indianapolis for Thanksgiving a few years ago, and he suggested that we take a trip to Fort Recovery, OH, where the Battle of the Wabash took place. Being originally from northeast Ohio, had always wanted to visit this location, but never did. GLAD that my brother and I took that trip to visit that long forgotten battlefield on a very cold November day. We also followed the route of St. Clair and visited some of the other historical sites associated with him. Gained a way better understanding of the battle, its implications on future Indian affairs, the conduct of the US Army before/during/after the battle, and a better appreciation for the tribes that tried to stop the advancement of English, Dutch, French, Spanish, and American settlers regardless of era. The Eastern Indians tried to be friendly at first, but realized that they had to fight back. Also, after visiting the area, hard to believe/visualize western Ohio & eastern Indiana as completely covered in forests!!!
I am a patron, a retired Coast Guard Reserve Lieutenant Commander and a pilot. I watch your videos every day while working out on the treadmills and bicycles at the YMCA. I’m a big fan and history buff. I have a history question for you not directly relating to one of your videos, but I suspect you probably know the answer. During WWII the Japanese invaded and occupied Attu and Kiska in the Aleutian Islands. Every video I see on UA-cam says that this is the first time in 100 years a foreign power has occupied and invaded a US possession (or words to that effect). I am familiar with Attu because the Coast Guard had three LORAN stations there between 1943 and 2010. There are still lots of abandoned bunkers, equipment, and rusty weapons there left over from the Battle of Attu. At the time (1942) the Japanese invaded Attu, Alaska was a US Territory. They also invaded the Philippines which was also a US Territory in 1942. So why do historians say the Battle of Attu was first time a foreign power occupied a US possession? Did they forget that the Philippines was a US Territory?
Another brilliant installment. I am moved to mention, your format could be taught as a near-perfect example of the five-paragraph essay…bravo, as ever.
Your brief background regarding the Treaty of Paris failed to mention that the British held on to the frontier forts because the U.S. refused to uphold the terms of that treaty, specifically, paying the debts owed by the plantation aristocracy to their London creditors and reimbursing the loyalists for private property illegally seized. It was only after the Jay Treaty was signed, in which the U.S. agreed to pay the London merchants (but not the loyalists) were the frontier forts surrendered.
If I may ask for to do a video about the Battle of Tippecanoe. Many historians consider this battle as the beginning of the war of 1812. I was taught in school that Tecumseh was the brains and main chief and the prophet was Tecumseh’s drunken brother. I was taught that Tecumseh went off to bring in more tribes to join the other tribes at Prophets town. Tecumseh told his brother the Prophet to not engage General William Henry Harrison. As taught General Harrison camped in a triangular area surrounded by wet land as directed by the Prophet. In the early morning the Prophet engaged General Harrison’s troops near present day Battleground in Tippecanoe County in Indiana. The Prophet lead the Indian tribes from Prophets rock. Harrison’s Troops won the battle and during the day burned down the Prophets town. I recently read a book about the battle where to author stated that the Prophet in fact was the chief and Tecumseh was merely the war chief. The Author also claimed that General Harrison preferred dealing with Tecumseh and said the Prophet was the brains and was a shroud politician. The Author also claimed that after General Harrison burned Prophets town but then returned later and burned Prophets down a second time. The Author also states the battle actual started because a group of Huron Indians went out to make sure that General Harrison’s troops were camped at the designated spot and wasn’t preparing to attack the tribes. As the group of Hurons rode past the troops the troops opened fire on the Hurons killing some and injuring others. When the Hurons got back to Prophets town they wanted revenge and demanded that the Prophet called an all out attack. Because of the battle, Harrison’s star rose and led to him running for and winning the presidency. Harrison used the campaign slogan of Tippecanoe and Tylor too. If you could, please do a video about what are the true facts of this important battle and what version of the battle is really the truth. Thank you ahead of time.
The red man is the most honoured opponent of the continental American. He fought bravely and fiercely against a severely technologically advanced enemy, and even to this day we show our respect to these men by adopting the monikers of Native tribes and areas. I don't feel guilt for the past, as it is nothing I can control, but I respect the hell out of the brave men who fought for their claim to the possession of America.
Here's the thing: Winston Churchill; Born November 30, 1874 in England. When one data point indicates dementia, we dismiss the others too. That brings us to wonder what you're motive could be? Some kind of persecution complex? Revenge? Someone has a pair of vice grips on your nuts?
"Quotes attributed to famous people on the internet should not be meekly believed. That would be stupid. Always insist on sources." - Reginald Churchill (Winston Churchill's younger brother and Confederate aviator.)
@victor soto South Korea is a democratically elected government and ally of the United States. The American flag still flies at the US Embassy in Seoul South Korea. Vietnam was the worst run War in American History. Iraq is a democratically elected government and ally of the United States. The American flag still flies at the US Embassy in Baghdad Iraq. Afghanistan is a democratically elected government and ally of the United States. The American flag still flies at the US Embassy in Kabul Afghanistan. Your racist Socialist ass got owned. Get a different hobby besides American history. You suck at it!!!
Thanks for the great video. This time period, I think is one of the most interesting time period from a historical standpoint. I live near Fort Wayne Indiana. The history here is ver complex and rich. Much more onterrsting than expansion west of the Mississippi. Yet almost no one knows anything about it.
Very interesting video. On one hand I can understand why the settlers settled on Indian lands. They were poor farmers just trying to survive a harsh world. On the other hand I can understand why the Indians made war on them. They were trespassing on Indian lands.
RonJohn63 ruthless invaders? Compared to who? You do know that natives scalped their enemies and some burnt then alive. There's lots of documentation about this. They also committed genocide against each other. For example the Chippewa made war on the Sioux and pushed them onto the prairie. The Sioux then made war on their enemies to the west. Also Indian tribes had more slaves than European descendants pre 1800. There's plenty of good history out there to research if people would just drop the SJW crap and actually study history
The world isn't a zero-sum game: Euros being ruthless doesn't mean that the aborigines were Noble Savages sitting around smoking the "peace" pipe and communing with Mother Nature.
RonJohn63 that I can agree with. The same hold true for the settlers. Not all were mean to the indigenous people. Some trades and lives among them or farmed by them quite peacefully. Also there are many cases of Indians saving the lives of whites from other Indian tribes. The Sioux uprising in MN is a great example. If it were not for the Chippewa several family would have undoubtedly been massacred. I could spend a day just discussing that one event as it's quite complex in itself.
Wow, that conversation took a turn for the better. I thought for sure this was going to be a 100-post thread where you argued the finer points of depravity on both sides while refusing to recognize the validity of either point of view. Nicely done.
Seeing your more recent videos, it really comes to show how far you have come in shaping the channel to what it is today. Not saying this video is bad, which it's not, but the intro, and how you recite your history lessons has changed since this video. It's an interesting piece of history... That deserves to be remembered. 😁
Arthur St. Clair is my 7th great grandfather... As a proud midwesterner I'd like to thank you for sharing this knowledge about one of his many parts in our history. It seems that the Western Confederacy was grossly underestimated by the American military at the time. Do you think St. Clair could have done anything differently to win? (given the circumstances he and his troops were in) Also, what was the exact goal of the campaign? Were they heading for a certain village or just waiting for a battle to take place?
Certainly the camp should have been better prepared, and discipline had clearly fallen apart. It is, in the end, the fault of the commander when his army is caught by surprise. But Congress had not provided sufficient funds, and there is only so much that you can do with poorly trained troops.
Truly an honor to respond to a descendant of General St. Clair. I wrote my Master's Thesis on this campaign and battle. My thesis focused on the recruitment of and quality of the soldiery in the General's Army as well as the state of logistical support for this campaign, which was substandard to say the least.Although General St. Clair does take the blame and deserves some of it for this campaign, the War Department in general was sorely lacking in preparing their forces to deploy for such an undertaking. And you are correct, they greatly underestimated the Indian Confederacy at the time, which I would argue could be placed on Secretary Knox. Some of his(Knox's) correspondence at the time bear this out. He seemed to think that if you just put more men in the field, that would win the day.
His mission was to establish a series of forts leaving Fort Washington witch will become Cincinnati Ohio. and going up basically following what is now Route 127 built Fort Hamilton Fort Eaton.Fort Jefferson about every 25 miles apart he got a late start in the year Supply problems recruiting problems . Then ran into blue jacket little turtle got his ass kicked.
I like what you do. But you only credited Little Turtle of the Miami. But did not mention Tecumseh and Blue Jacket of the Shawnee in the Battle of Wabash.
The History Guy: History Deserves to Be Remembered I believe it was Alan Eckard who wrote the Frontiersman series and spoke of Tecumseh,, Blue jacket and Simon Butler,, with many many others with the greatest respect for both sides. I would highly recommend to viewers of his channel, if you get a chance read the (Frontiersman.)
Would love to see a segment dealing with Quanah Parker, the battle of Adobe Walls and Billy Dixon's famous shot or how Quanah Parker and Charles Goodnight became lifelong friends. Lot's of grits for the mill there, I wager to say
Have you done an episode on the most successful battle in US history? The battle of Manila Bay might be a candidate and otherwise might warrant an episode of its own.
97% casualty rate and 1/4 of the entire US forces. Not the worst by sheer number of casualties, no. But losing almost 1,000 to 20 Native American losses.....
i thought this sounded familiar i remember visiting the historical monument at the battle site its ridiculously hard to find by the way out it the middle of nowhere and hidden in the trees
My fifth great uncle, Capt Richard Sparks was a scout for Gen St Clair, along with Capt Sam Brady, Chief Piamingo of the Choctaw, 40 of his warriors and brothers William and George Colbert, half Scots and half Choctaw. St Clair refused to take Capt Sparks's recommendations. They were given the option to fight or go back out to scout. They chose to put their lives in their own hands. Later, Gen Anthony Wayne, listened to Sparks ( who was taken by the father of Tecumseh during a Shawnee raid in SW Pennsylvania in 1760 at age 3 and raised as the brother of Tecumseh and became a Shawnee warrior, so, after being pushed out, along with Tecumsehs family after the death of Pukshinwah, Tecumsehs father at the battle of Point Pleasant in Lord Dunsmore's War, he was forcibly repatriated to the whites, so he knew Shawnee ways, villages of the Shawnee, Miami's and Delaware's and their fighting tactics and rituals. ) and Sparks gave Gen Anthony Wayne the winning battle plan at Fallen Timbers
in some ways its worse at approx. 933 casualties out of 1000 (using Wikipedia stats there) were the Brits lost 1300 out of 1800 but still a good comparison only the Brits had a redeeming win at Rourke's drift
Dean: How so? Isandalwana was a defeat of a portion of the arguably finest and most highly trained army in the world at the time. Of course they were also outnumbered badly. The Wabash battle was a defeat of militia who were also outnumbered. Both had incompetent commanders, if that's what you mean. And Whitecamry below has an even worse analogy. Custer was not incompetent. He just had bad intelligence gathering and Captain Benteen going against him, besides being outnumbered.
History Guy, you must read the book "Captured by the Indians, 15 Personal Accounts, 1750-1870". Edited by by Frederick Drimmer. Packed with revealing Indian culture, action, excitement, violence, tortures, religion, and revenge. Harrowing, true stories of those that were captured and what they personally witnessed. I think you will love it. Out of the thousands of books I've read, this is in my top 3. Fascinating.
"There had been a poor harvest that year and the warriors had to return home to hunt to feed their families." I think that sentence sums up the reasons the Natives lost the Indian Wars. They were just too far behind technological. There was no industry, no real economy or even much unity between the tribes and ultimately they were defeated
The Battle of Hürtgen Forest might run a close second. Reasons: 1. lack of preparations; 2. opportunity to desist; 3. no real strategic value; 4. needless sacrifice of lives. Some people know about George Washington and General Braddock and how stupid Braddock was in his approach to battle. It was replicated by the US Army in the Forest centuries later. Just winning land does not mean you were defeated.
I meant to say that winning land does not equate always to victory. It can also represent a defeat. When the Battle of Chosen Res. took place, the Chinese won land, but the victory was in the retreat.
In a war of attrition, a defeat can lead to victory if you can replace your losses better than the enemy can replace their's. Hitler did Eisenhower a favor by coming out from behind his defenses and attacking in the Ardennes, but even the German losses at Hurtgen Forest were a problem for the Germans. Grant was able to do the same thing at Richmond and Petersburg.
Have to agree. I don't know who was responsible for that disaster. Courtney Hodges drove US 9th Army into the Hurtgen with apparent disregard of casualties but he took orders from Bradley who read the reports and gave orders to push the attack. The buck more or less stopped with Bradley as his boss, Eisenhower, did not get involved in the day to day operations of his field commanders. If I remember right, Model massed 28 regiments of artillery into the Hurtgen sector.
@@bdockett A good set of books to read by Atkinson. Trilogy: 1.Army at Dawn (North Africa) 2. Day of Battle ( Sicily and Italy) Lots of stupidity there also. 3. Guns at Last Light. D Day to the end. Covers the Hurtegen Forest in pretty good detail.
An episode on Anthony Wayne would be great. One of America's great psychopaths seems an undertapped source as there's scant little about him, aside from his one big victory.
The 1790 defeat of Harmar and St Clair in 1791 set in motion the need for well trained professional officers with strong backgrounds in engineering, logistics, and mathematics. It also made clear a certain number of professional regiments had to be permanently maintained. The history of the militia system is generally mediocre. It became apparent in the War of 1812 that militia troops had to be properly equipped, led by professional officers and Noncoms with some training time to be effective in combat on the frontier. Militia troops also had to have a regiment or certain number of professional troops in order to stand up under battlefield conditions. West Point was established during this period so engineering officers could be tasked to build coastal fortifications near cities, forts along the frontier, survey the frontier for settlement, and to create a system of logistics to support the troops on the frontier. It is no coincident that the forts established by these military engineering officers later became tramsportation hubs and later important towns and cities. The Army Corps of Engineers was formed out of those West Point engineering officers. The impacts of the Corps of Engineers took on an urgency after the numerous miliitary disasters during the war of 1812. It became apparent that distant forts on the Great Lakes and rivers needed regular supply chains with roads, bridges, ports, and river ports. The Army Corps of engineering took to dredging rivers, surveying the frontier, and establishing secure forts on the frontier on rivers and on the Great Lakes. It is no coincidence that the Erie Canal was built to link New York City with the Great Lakes. Future river steamboats, Great Lakes shipping routes, and the railroad all connected to old forts turning them into major cities for the settlement of North America. The military defeats of Harmar and St Clair in the early 1790's did much to serve as a catalyst to building the Army Corps of Engineers in the early 19th Century that became a bulwark organization for settling the frontier. www.usace.army.mil/About/History/Brief-History-of-the-Corps/Beginnings/
Who do you think largely financed the construction of those roads, bridges, ports, canals and later railways? Hint: the Treaty of Ghent that ended the War of 1812-15 (and which contained several "gentlemen's agreements" not committed to paper, and which sold out the interests of the western indigenous peoples) assured free trade of capital between the UK and US and provided that neither side would seize or freeze the assets of the other even if hostilities should ever be renewed.
The difference between St Clairs defeat and Gen Wayne's victory was the fact that St. Clair ignored the scouting and advice of my 5th great uncle, Captain Richard" Shawtunte" Sparks, a former Shawnee captive/ adoptee of the father of Tecumseh. Gen Anthony Wayne listened to Sparks's advice and won. Captain Sparks is often forgotten, but had a hand in a lot of frontier history.
Love your videos and the format, the older I get the shorter my attention span. Some folks reckon Feb 1973 Wounded Knee was the last uprising, but I don't know. Only a couple hundred folks as I recall. Again thanks for another great video. I watch them in no particular order, so I hope there is not a curriculum involved?
Garret Phegley, I live around thirty miles north of Wabash. Kosciusko County was an Indian Reservation. The Indian village of Monoquet is just north of Warsaw along the Tippecanoe River.
What about a video about Tecumseh, prophetstown and the battle of tippecanoe that you alluded too. I remember hearing “Tippecanoe and Tyler too” from the campaign of William Henry Harrison, but have heard very little about this despite living nearby.
Another time of great embarrassment for the American military was, the Battle of Queenstown Heights during the war of 1812. Out of 3500 roughly American forces went up against a force of 1300 or so 'Canadian' forces....the Americans sustained 100 dead, 170 wounded and 835 captured. They inflicted just 21 killed, 85 wounded and 22 captured. In a battle that they had the advantage of nearly 3 to 1. The indigenous peoples of 'Canada' had a major part to play in that victory.
Douglas Scharbrough ..... All except for one. Look up Fredericksburg, Texas Meusebach-Comanche Treaty! Private citizens who just wanted to live in peace with the native peoples, to live without butchering one another, did what no government could.
Yes. It was a private treaty. You said, “all US treaties” and considering that Texas was part of the Union, only 2 years prior, It applies to what you said. Also, there was no mention of the US government, and that’s why I was specific that it was people, not government, willing to live with the Native Peoples and not butcher one another. Did you ever see, The Outlaw, Josey Wales?
A well told account of an indian battle victory in early America. I wonder why a lot of Americans haven't heard of it either? The Victor writes the story. So much for another American historian saying that in the Indian wars the USA only lost about 550 dead. These early Indian wars are obviously excluded.
WOW!! This is the first time I've heard of this, and I was taught Canadian history (were American defeats are more highlighted). Maybe It's because Joseph Brant and Tecumseh died on Canadian soil that they were considered Canadian heroes against American aggression .
Have you considered doing a show on the Lost Battalion of WW I? I'd also like to suggest the exploits of USS Johnston of Taffy 3 during WW II. Both of these deserve to be remembered in my opinion.
That the city I'm from..Greenville..OH..The last week end of July we celebrate the treaty as well as Annie Oakely since she is also from there..Once they had the entire outline of the fort marked out on the sidewalks..It was amazing just how large that fort really was. as well as the place where the treaty was signed..
honestly this channel and mark felton productions are the most wholesome and informative channels out there. i love these videos keep me coming!
Charles Stewart , I’ve subscribed to both History Guy and Mark Felton UA-cam channels. Great stuff from both of them.👍🏻
Yep same
Me too! These guys are awesome. They need to go salvage the History Channel.
@@djmech3871 Same here.
this dude is great but Mark is at another level.
Little Turtle refused to lead the western confederacy at the battle of the fallen timbers. He said that Wayne, who always posted sentries and sent out scouts, never slept and could not be defeated. He went to battle as an ordinary warrior.
Thomas Conrow truth is other Indian tribes served as scouts for Wayne without them whitey had no chance.
@Stanisław Śmierćyk Unbeatable is a strong word. Without ANY information or too low to be effective no army can function. Why would they even take defensive position if they have no info on the advancing enemy? Battle of Britain was won due to "scouting" and information.
There are so many ways this battle could had happened. It could had been fought at river crossing or in dense wood or the native could had used some tricks to split the US army.
For me scouting and positioning had won this battle, also ignorance of the natives on military strategy.
@@mikekemper9566 Guns, germs and steel. The advantage. "whitey" took them everywhere he went.
Mike Kemper whitey is the reason you arnt slaughtering buffalo.
It didn't help that the confederation was betrayed by the British locked out of the fort I left with your ass hanging in the Wind
Lived near the Wabash and knew this story. Very well documented and History Guy went into it in deeper detail than others. Chief Little Turtle got all the tribes together to fight, but after the victory all the tribes wanted to go back to their areas. Chief Little Turtle said they had to stay united from now on in order to defeat more to come. He in essences said, united we stand divided to fall. But the tribes refused and all disbanded. Chief Little Turtle said the war was lost because of this and so it was.
True American History that should not be Forgotten , Great content please keep Our History in perspective . Thank You 🇺🇸
My late wife a Cree native from norther Canada would have loved your channel. Thanks its informative history i did not know.
How are the Playboys?
I genuinely like this guy.
I used to think the intro was weird but now I find it charming. Like, small town convenience store charming...
I like him. I love his intro. If you love his intro too, then this is the channel for you.
It's kinda cheesy but feels wholesome
Yep - he's neat - 😉
It's the bowtie. A grown man should never wear one.
Like Garrison Keillor on Lake Wobegon on NPR ?
Thank you for an informative and interesting video. As a native of Ohio, I have extensively studied the "Indian Wars' and Ohio History. You presented a good deal of content without proselytizing. The facts are the facts and you did a good job. Thank you.
The story of how General Wayne rebuilt the army is also worth telling. And yes, this is the origin of Ft Wayne, Indiana.
Yes, I may do an episode on Anthony Wayne and the Legion of the United States at some point. There was barely room to touch on it here.
a very interesting period of time to be sure. I know we didnt spend a whole lot of time on it in my american history class through school. Probably about a week was spent and it mostly focused on the battle of Tippecanoe as it led to William Henry Harrison being elected to president.
You're right, it's how Fort Wayne hit its name. But it read a large native city first. That's the city Harmar and St. Clair both tried to capture.
my Mo . county's named after him....Mad Anthony..
Watching from the ft wayne metro area
When Americans win they are 'wars' ... when they lose they call them 'massacres'.
The natives got exactly what they asked for. Smallpox
The only official "massacre" in US history is the Boston Massacre so no idea what you are referring to. The generic massacre term usually refers to slaying people while they are running or surrendering
Fantastic summary of an purposefully forgotten and misunderstood war. Thank you!
We learned about the Battle of the Wabash and the Battle of Fallen Timbers in middle school state history class.
Thank-you not just for the forgotten history, but for the analysis. The causes and 2nd & 3rd order effects are what make history so interesting.
The legacy of this battle is remembered on the arms of the 5th US Artillery. It is credited with five campaigns against the Indians. These are commemorated by five arrows on the regiment's coat of arms. The arrow for this campaign, in which virtually every cannoneer died at the guns, is broken.
Is this something remarkable?
interesting bit of history, thank you for sharing
It's a bit of history...not every 'battle honour' requires glory. Read it and remember that your country is built, like so many of strife and oppression....in some ways a good thing, in others a bad thing...it just IS!!
Judging history from the present... Here we go again. Be quiet and sit still Patrick.
Patrick Baillargeon
Yes, just likr your intellect.
Thank you for this excellent presentation. It is rare to find programming upon this aspect of American history. I also find your sense of justice towards unacknowledged heroes and those, unfortunately , that were villains is refreshingly dispassionate, and therefore, fair.
I think I must've inherited my love of accurate history from my father. (After I did a paper of the "Sioux wars", he encouraged me to read "Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee". Enough said.) I REALLY like this series; it seems to address history as past events, not as an apology for the actions of the people who ended up writing it. Thank you, thank you, thank you!
Well said. I just want to know exactly what happened. Not interested in finger pointing nor in living in the past.
Living in the area, I've visited the fallen timbers memorial and battle site several times. Leaving an offering at turkeyfoot rock in honor of the brave warriors who fought there
Thank you for doing that
This was America’s version of the Battle of Adwa:
Underestimated natives equipped with modern weapons attacked a large group of exposed, unprepared colonists and nearly annihilated them!
Moral of the story - underestimating your enemies will result in grave consequences…
Thank you for making this video. I first heard about St. Clair's Defeat when I read "500 Nations" (phenomenal book for anyone looking to get a primer on North American Indians, complete with great contemporary artwork and other illustrations).
There is a trilogy of books by Allan Eckert that really covers this time in history. I really recommend The Frontiersman, Wilderness Empire, Gateway to Empire and Twilight of Empire.
Hi Bob Nicholas you can add another one from him, "That Dark and Bloody River-The Ohio" Besides the Bible it's the best book I've ever read.
@@markmorse9445 they are all good.
Bob Nicholas this why is I came to dislike text books as a teacher. Textbooks omit so much.
The Frontiersman is my favorite book !
@Bob Nichols - GREAT books! I've read them all.
I grew up In Coldwater, Ohio which is about ten miles from the location of the Battle of the Wabash in present day Fort Recovery, Ohio (named by Mad Anthony Wayne one of the most under rated Military Commanders in U.S. History. To this day we hold the Native American leaders Little Turtle, Blue Jacket and Buckangahela as commanders of great skill and courage and our proud that we had such worthy and honorable opponents.
Hope to stop and have a look this summer, my Sister is over in Maria Stein. Just finished the David McCullough book The Pioneers, it gives a pretty good account of the battle.
@@nmaddog4689 I’ve read McCoulloghs book The Pioneers too. Alan Eckert in his book The Frontiersman gives a more detailed account of the battle.
@@Mottleydude1 You don’t look like a Motley Dude. If that’s your photo you look like an ancestor of that battle. I’ll have to check that book out. Thank you.
@@nmaddog4689 ROTFL That’s my wife. She pulled the “if you really love me you’ll use my picture as your icon.” Schtick on me. LOL
I just found your channel. I have listened to a lot of your content and must say much of that content was never taught in any of my history classes. Further more, I really appreciate how you explain the consequences of the content continued to affect the future.
Great channel. Well done.
Excellent as usual love this forgotten history, we all need to remember the past no matter how obscure Forget your history at your own peril.
Excellent job on this, thanks very much!
I am appreciating this video immensely from Huntington, near the forks of the Wabash.
The expedition was doomed to fail. Half the force was men who had no military experience and discipline at all. Due to supply problems, the force left weeks behind schedule, into winter weather. Desertions were rampant.
The evening of November 3rd, the expedition set up camp so late, they didn’t even build any defensive works. It was a disaster waiting to happen. It took 3 weeks for news of St.Claire’s defeat to reach President Washington in New York. Washington was furious, and there were many who wanted St.Claire Courtmartialed, but Washington remembered St.Claire’s service during the Revolution, and had him retired.
"Please Mr. Custer...!!"
I have seen a few channels of history, and I consider this one the Best...Informative, very well summerized, it reveals the background and the aftermath of the historic events..I´m a guy that loves history, and I´ve started to follow this channel regularly...
I currently live in the city of Greenville Ohio, and often go to the treaty site for reflection
I live in wayne co in and boundary Rd east of fountain city is that treaty line
I'm from there also.
Thanks A lot! You should make a video on the Battle of the Monongahela in the French and Indian War.
You have tought me so much in such a short time. Thanks from Panama City Beach FL 👽😽
Thanks from ....Tally- Ho ... (Biggest Burgers) .
Whenever I see the History Guy releases l always love to view it.
Thank you so much or this informative program...I loved it.
Thank you for making this man
daylon boender thank you for the topic idea!
A little tiny road sign was all that was there to mark the battle. I grew up 1 1/2 miles from the sign.
Where is this at? Born in raised in Celina here, I'm big into history and want to visit this sign
You have one of the best channels on UA-cam.
I never knew the official end of the "Apache War" was in 1924! --I always thought the indian wars ended with "Wounded Knee" in 1890.
I enjoy your little history snippets, and watch regularly. A very good show,overall, and extremely accurate in your data. ( Yes, I too am a history nerd...er...buff. ) However. (Isn't there always one of those? ) I am of the opinion that the forces were very evenly matched, with the Natives woodland skills making up for slightly less firepower. Taking nothing away from the leadership skills of Mad Anthony Wayne , but there had to be a winner, and on that given day he was the one. Opinion only.
I am a fairly long standing subscriber, and expect the pleasure of many more little rides past historical way points. Thank you, Sir.
John H Fox , Wayne had scouts (Chickasaw?) that advised him to hold off engaging the enemy for a day or more, knowing that the natives prefer to fight with empty stomachs. Gut wound survival is better accomplished with empty bowels. There's an account given from the natives side by a white captive adoptee by the name of "Indian" George Ash that mentioned many natives leaving to return to their villages before the fight began, maybe for the want of food or to feed their families. Whatever it was, Wayne was well advised.
Here's a link to George Ash's story....
books.google.com/books?id=mYOgYkimbzgC&pg=PA193&lpg=PA193&dq=indian+george+ash&source=bl&ots=x3UQYYyLv1&sig=ACfU3U2GheYYz-Fv9qI7ejpI6dxarJnLgw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiKgt6lwszjAhWVZ80KHcZCCXQ4ChDoATACegQIBhAB#v=onepage&q=indian%20george%20ash&f=falseHere's
Tell them about Rogers Rangers. We still used his handbook in Special Forces in 1970.
Wow that is quite surprising, thank you for that little educational piece.
1924? I think we need an episode on the "Apache war".
Robert Tinsley
- 1924, I think that was when Geronimo's grandson and a few others raided a gas station and rode off into history. If you want a good book on the Apache wars try - "Death on the Desert: The fifty years war for the great South West." au. Paul I. Wellman.
Great video!!!! Have heard of this battle before, but it would usually be a foot-note in some type of book I would be reading about American westward expansion. Having been living west of the Mississippi River for over 25+ years, am more interested in the Plains Indians Wars. Visited my brother in Indianapolis for Thanksgiving a few years ago, and he suggested that we take a trip to Fort Recovery, OH, where the Battle of the Wabash took place. Being originally from northeast Ohio, had always wanted to visit this location, but never did. GLAD that my brother and I took that trip to visit that long forgotten battlefield on a very cold November day. We also followed the route of St. Clair and visited some of the other historical sites associated with him. Gained a way better understanding of the battle, its implications on future Indian affairs, the conduct of the US Army before/during/after the battle, and a better appreciation for the tribes that tried to stop the advancement of English, Dutch, French, Spanish, and American settlers regardless of era. The Eastern Indians tried to be friendly at first, but realized that they had to fight back. Also, after visiting the area, hard to believe/visualize western Ohio & eastern Indiana as completely covered in forests!!!
painful stuff history....excellent job by the way.
I truly enjoy you short snippets of forgotten history. Please keep going.
That was fascinating. Thank you.
I am a patron, a retired Coast Guard Reserve Lieutenant Commander and a pilot. I watch your videos every day while working out on the treadmills and bicycles at the YMCA. I’m a big fan and history buff.
I have a history question for you not directly relating to one of your videos, but I suspect you probably know the answer. During WWII the Japanese invaded and occupied Attu and Kiska in the Aleutian Islands. Every video I see on UA-cam says that this is the first time in 100 years a foreign power has occupied and invaded a US possession (or words to that effect).
I am familiar with Attu because the Coast Guard had three LORAN stations there between 1943 and 2010. There are still lots of abandoned bunkers, equipment, and rusty weapons there left over from the Battle of Attu.
At the time (1942) the Japanese invaded Attu, Alaska was a US Territory. They also invaded the Philippines which was also a US Territory in 1942. So why do historians say the Battle of Attu was first time a foreign power occupied a US possession? Did they forget that the Philippines was a US Territory?
can you please do a special where you discuss your hat collection.
I am doing a series based on those hats exclusive for patrons on Patreon. www.patreon.com/thehistoryguy.
@@TheHistoryGuyChannel good sales.
And bow ties, too.
Another brilliant installment. I am moved to mention, your format could be taught as a near-perfect example of the five-paragraph essay…bravo, as ever.
Your brief background regarding the Treaty of Paris failed to mention that the British held on to the frontier forts because the U.S. refused to uphold the terms of that treaty, specifically, paying the debts owed by the plantation aristocracy to their London creditors and reimbursing the loyalists for private property illegally seized. It was only after the Jay Treaty was signed, in which the U.S. agreed to pay the London merchants (but not the loyalists) were the frontier forts surrendered.
Yes, because you can never trust The American government to hold to a treaty they have signed. Ever.
I stumbled on your channel. I’m back in high school 👍
If I may ask for to do a video about the Battle of Tippecanoe. Many historians consider this battle as the beginning of the war of 1812. I was taught in school that Tecumseh was the brains and main chief and the prophet was Tecumseh’s drunken brother. I was taught that Tecumseh went off to bring in more tribes to join the other tribes at Prophets town. Tecumseh told his brother the Prophet to not engage General William Henry Harrison. As taught General Harrison camped in a triangular area surrounded by wet land as directed by the Prophet. In the early morning the Prophet engaged General Harrison’s troops near present day Battleground in Tippecanoe County in Indiana. The Prophet lead the Indian tribes from Prophets rock. Harrison’s Troops won the battle and during the day burned down the Prophets town.
I recently read a book about the battle where to author stated that the Prophet in fact was the chief and Tecumseh was merely the war chief. The Author also claimed that General Harrison preferred dealing with Tecumseh and said the Prophet was the brains and was a shroud politician. The Author also claimed that after General Harrison burned Prophets town but then returned later and burned Prophets down a second time. The Author also states the battle actual started because a group of Huron Indians went out to make sure that General Harrison’s troops were camped at the designated spot and wasn’t preparing to attack the tribes. As the group of Hurons rode past the troops the troops opened fire on the Hurons killing some and injuring others. When the Hurons got back to Prophets town they wanted revenge and demanded that the Prophet called an all out attack. Because of the battle, Harrison’s star rose and led to him running for and winning the presidency. Harrison used the campaign slogan of Tippecanoe and Tylor too.
If you could, please do a video about what are the true facts of this important battle and what version of the battle is really the truth. Thank you ahead of time.
I think it would make a good episode, yes.
That would be awsome. I'm from Fort Wayne and there is a lot of history not being passed down.
Zedeezia battleground has a park dedicated to the battle. It’s hardly forgotten.
General Wayne's nickname was "howling mad". This should tell you something about what his opponents had to contend with.
The red man is the most honoured opponent of the continental American. He fought bravely and fiercely against a severely technologically advanced enemy, and even to this day we show our respect to these men by adopting the monikers of Native tribes and areas. I don't feel guilt for the past, as it is nothing I can control, but I respect the hell out of the brave men who fought for their claim to the possession of America.
Here's the thing: Winston Churchill; Born November 30, 1874 in England. When one data point indicates dementia, we dismiss the others too. That brings us to wonder what you're motive could be? Some kind of persecution complex? Revenge? Someone has a pair of vice grips on your nuts?
"Quotes attributed to famous people on the internet should not be meekly believed. That would be stupid. Always insist on sources." - Reginald Churchill (Winston Churchill's younger brother and Confederate aviator.)
Refuso Againo , you do know you can still today fly over the battlefields? To view them.
What are the points of dementia you are referencing?
@victor soto
South Korea is a democratically elected government and ally of the United States. The American flag still flies at the US Embassy in Seoul South Korea.
Vietnam was the worst run War in American History.
Iraq is a democratically elected government and ally of the United States. The American flag still flies at the US Embassy in Baghdad Iraq.
Afghanistan is a democratically elected government and ally of the United States. The American flag still flies at the US Embassy in Kabul Afghanistan.
Your racist Socialist ass got owned. Get a different hobby besides American history. You suck at it!!!
We fight still.
Thanks for the great video. This time period, I think is one of the most interesting time period from a historical standpoint. I live near Fort Wayne Indiana. The history here is ver complex and rich. Much more onterrsting than expansion west of the Mississippi. Yet almost no one knows anything about it.
Very interesting video. On one hand I can understand why the settlers settled on Indian lands. They were poor farmers just trying to survive a harsh world. On the other hand I can understand why the Indians made war on them. They were trespassing on Indian lands.
The Indians never had chance against a larger population of relatively ruthless and technologically superior invaders.
RonJohn63 ruthless invaders? Compared to who? You do know that natives scalped their enemies and some burnt then alive. There's lots of documentation about this. They also committed genocide against each other. For example the Chippewa made war on the Sioux and pushed them onto the prairie. The Sioux then made war on their enemies to the west. Also Indian tribes had more slaves than European descendants pre 1800. There's plenty of good history out there to research if people would just drop the SJW crap and actually study history
The world isn't a zero-sum game: Euros being ruthless doesn't mean that the aborigines were Noble Savages sitting around smoking the "peace" pipe and communing with Mother Nature.
RonJohn63 that I can agree with. The same hold true for the settlers. Not all were mean to the indigenous people. Some trades and lives among them or farmed by them quite peacefully. Also there are many cases of Indians saving the lives of whites from other Indian tribes. The Sioux uprising in MN is a great example. If it were not for the Chippewa several family would have undoubtedly been massacred. I could spend a day just discussing that one event as it's quite complex in itself.
Wow, that conversation took a turn for the better. I thought for sure this was going to be a 100-post thread where you argued the finer points of depravity on both sides while refusing to recognize the validity of either point of view. Nicely done.
Seeing your more recent videos, it really comes to show how far you have come in shaping the channel to what it is today. Not saying this video is bad, which it's not, but the intro, and how you recite your history lessons has changed since this video. It's an interesting piece of history... That deserves to be remembered. 😁
Fascinating and well told.👍
Thank you, wonder piece. Always enjoy your work. So much great history to discover.
Arthur St. Clair is my 7th great grandfather... As a proud midwesterner I'd like to thank you for sharing this knowledge about one of his many parts in our history. It seems that the Western Confederacy was grossly underestimated by the American military at the time. Do you think St. Clair could have done anything differently to win? (given the circumstances he and his troops were in) Also, what was the exact goal of the campaign? Were they heading for a certain village or just waiting for a battle to take place?
Certainly the camp should have been better prepared, and discipline had clearly fallen apart. It is, in the end, the fault of the commander when his army is caught by surprise. But Congress had not provided sufficient funds, and there is only so much that you can do with poorly trained troops.
I agree, the lack of scouting parties was quite a mistake and helped the confederacy gain the edge that they needed.
Truly an honor to respond to a descendant of General St. Clair. I wrote my Master's Thesis on this campaign and battle. My thesis focused on the recruitment of and quality of the soldiery in the General's Army as well as the state of logistical support for this campaign, which was substandard to say the least.Although General St. Clair does take the blame and deserves some of it for this campaign, the War Department in general was sorely lacking in preparing their forces to deploy for such an undertaking. And you are correct, they greatly underestimated the Indian Confederacy at the time, which I would argue could be placed on Secretary Knox. Some of his(Knox's) correspondence at the time bear this out. He seemed to think that if you just put more men in the field, that would win the day.
His mission was to establish a series of forts leaving Fort Washington witch will become Cincinnati Ohio. and going up basically following what is now Route 127 built Fort Hamilton Fort Eaton.Fort Jefferson about every 25 miles apart he got a late start in the year Supply problems recruiting problems . Then ran into blue jacket little turtle got his ass kicked.
Arthur st clair is my grandfather (x10)
THIS CHANNEL IS AWESOME TO SAY THE LEAST
I like what you do. But you only credited Little Turtle of the Miami. But did not mention Tecumseh and Blue Jacket of the Shawnee in the Battle of Wabash.
Dennis Lay correct, many nations were represented.
He didn't have a lot of time. And no one is perfect. I think this guy's pretty good at what he does.
matthew, did your dog die or something?
Hey Matt, maybe it's finally time to see a therapist?
The History Guy: History Deserves to Be Remembered I believe it was Alan Eckard who wrote the Frontiersman series and spoke of Tecumseh,, Blue jacket and Simon Butler,, with many many others with the greatest respect for both sides. I would highly recommend to viewers of his channel, if you get a chance read the (Frontiersman.)
I just read the book "Field of Corpses" about this. Failure was built in from the beginning planning stages.
Would love to see a segment dealing with Quanah Parker, the battle of Adobe Walls and Billy Dixon's famous shot or how Quanah Parker and Charles Goodnight became lifelong friends. Lot's of grits for the mill there, I wager to say
I JUST LOVE YOUR HISTORY LESSONS SIR,A BIG RED APPLE FOR YOU
Ever thought of doing a story of all the Indian treaties broken by the US government.
HugeWolf1 Why? It’s well known and not “forgotten history” at all
I JUST LOVE THIS CHANNEL.
Tecumseh makes a fine lawnmower engine.
Have you done an episode on the most successful battle in US history? The battle of Manila Bay might be a candidate and otherwise might warrant an episode of its own.
The US Army's greatest defeat? What about the Battle of the Philippines in 1941-2?
I suspect the selection of the title for this episode had something to do with the 97% casualty rate.
There was also the little big horn!
Greatest defeat by Native Americans that's what he meant.
@@michaelmcclain5091 Small potatoes combared to The Wabash.
97% casualty rate and 1/4 of the entire US forces. Not the worst by sheer number of casualties, no. But losing almost 1,000 to 20 Native American losses.....
I appreciate your even-handed and honest narrative of this early part of American history. Thank you!
i thought this sounded familiar i remember visiting the historical monument at the battle site its ridiculously hard to find by the way out it the middle of nowhere and hidden in the trees
My fifth great uncle, Capt Richard Sparks was a scout for Gen St Clair, along with Capt Sam Brady, Chief Piamingo of the Choctaw, 40 of his warriors and brothers William and George Colbert, half Scots and half Choctaw. St Clair refused to take Capt Sparks's recommendations. They were given the option to fight or go back out to scout. They chose to put their lives in their own hands. Later, Gen Anthony Wayne, listened to Sparks ( who was taken by the father of Tecumseh during a Shawnee raid in SW Pennsylvania in 1760 at age 3 and raised as the brother of Tecumseh and became a Shawnee warrior, so, after being pushed out, along with Tecumsehs family after the death of Pukshinwah, Tecumsehs father at the battle of Point Pleasant in Lord Dunsmore's War, he was forcibly repatriated to the whites, so he knew Shawnee ways, villages of the Shawnee, Miami's and Delaware's and their fighting tactics and rituals. ) and Sparks gave Gen Anthony Wayne the winning battle plan at Fallen Timbers
Thank you for history not taught in school.
My first favorite book is M.R. Harrington's "Dickon Among the Lenapes" - thanks for the suggestion below to look at Allan Eckert.
That sounds like an American version of Isandalwana.
Dean Stuart in some ways that is a fair comparison.
in some ways its worse at approx. 933 casualties out of 1000 (using Wikipedia stats there) were the Brits lost 1300 out of 1800 but still a good comparison only the Brits had a redeeming win at Rourke's drift
But with not so many classic films made about it, maybe??
And we (the British) were annihilated...
Or an 18th-Century Little Big Horn.
Dean: How so? Isandalwana was a defeat of a portion of the arguably finest and most highly trained army in the world at the time. Of course they were also outnumbered badly. The Wabash battle was a defeat of militia who were also outnumbered. Both had incompetent commanders, if that's what you mean. And Whitecamry below has an even worse analogy. Custer was not incompetent. He just had bad intelligence gathering and Captain Benteen going against him, besides being outnumbered.
No need for the dramatics. We love your channel for the story and the time it took to tell it. Thank you.
History Guy, you must read the book "Captured by the Indians, 15 Personal Accounts, 1750-1870". Edited by by Frederick Drimmer. Packed with revealing Indian culture, action, excitement, violence, tortures, religion, and revenge. Harrowing, true stories of those that were captured and what they personally witnessed. I think you will love it. Out of the thousands of books I've read, this is in my top 3. Fascinating.
I appreciate the suggestion, TY!
Doc., you certainly exposed my 65 yr old love of History on this one. I’m getting fat on your “Food for Thought”. Thank you, your research is amazing
"There had been a poor harvest that year and the warriors had to return home to hunt to feed their families."
I think that sentence sums up the reasons the Natives lost the Indian Wars. They were just too far behind technological. There was no industry, no real economy or even much unity between the tribes and ultimately they were defeated
Yes, the Natives were divided and conquered.
Its crazy this channel isnt more popular
The Battle of Hürtgen Forest might run a close second. Reasons: 1. lack of preparations; 2. opportunity to desist; 3. no real strategic value; 4. needless sacrifice of lives. Some people know about George Washington and General Braddock and how stupid Braddock was in his approach to battle. It was replicated by the US Army in the Forest centuries later. Just winning land does not mean you were defeated.
I meant to say that winning land does not equate always to victory. It can also represent a defeat. When the Battle of Chosen Res. took place, the Chinese won land, but the victory was in the retreat.
In a war of attrition, a defeat can lead to victory if you can replace your losses better than the enemy can replace their's. Hitler did Eisenhower a favor by coming out from behind his defenses and attacking in the Ardennes, but even the German losses at Hurtgen Forest were a problem for the Germans.
Grant was able to do the same thing at Richmond and Petersburg.
Have to agree. I don't know who was responsible for that disaster. Courtney Hodges drove US 9th Army into the Hurtgen with apparent disregard of casualties but he took orders from Bradley who read the reports and gave orders to push the attack. The buck more or less stopped with Bradley as his boss, Eisenhower, did not get involved in the day to day operations of his field commanders. If I remember right, Model massed 28 regiments of artillery into the Hurtgen sector.
I propose that the loss of the Philippines in 1942 was #2, or even #1.
@@bdockett A good set of books to read by Atkinson.
Trilogy: 1.Army at Dawn (North Africa)
2. Day of Battle ( Sicily and Italy) Lots of stupidity there also.
3. Guns at Last Light.
D Day to the end.
Covers the Hurtegen Forest in pretty good detail.
I am embarrassed to say i thought I knew about almost every war and battle in us history and I never heard about this battle before today
An episode on Anthony Wayne would be great. One of America's great psychopaths seems an undertapped source as there's scant little about him, aside from his one big victory.
Yes, I may do an episode on Mad Anthony at some point.
What about the British victory at Charleston in 1780? The Continental Army lost 5000 troops in the surrender.
The 1790 defeat of Harmar and St Clair in 1791 set in motion the need for well trained professional officers with strong backgrounds in engineering, logistics, and mathematics. It also made clear a certain number of professional regiments had to be permanently maintained. The history of the militia system is generally mediocre. It became apparent in the War of 1812 that militia troops had to be properly equipped, led by professional officers and Noncoms with some training time to be effective in combat on the frontier. Militia troops also had to have a regiment or certain number of professional troops in order to stand up under battlefield conditions. West Point was established during this period so engineering officers could be tasked to build coastal fortifications near cities, forts along the frontier, survey the frontier for settlement, and to create a system of logistics to support the troops on the frontier. It is no coincident that the forts established by these military engineering officers later became tramsportation hubs and later important towns and cities.
The Army Corps of Engineers was formed out of those West Point engineering officers. The impacts of the Corps of Engineers took on an urgency after the numerous miliitary disasters during the war of 1812. It became apparent that distant forts on the Great Lakes and rivers needed regular supply chains with roads, bridges, ports, and river ports. The Army Corps of engineering took to dredging rivers, surveying the frontier, and establishing secure forts on the frontier on rivers and on the Great Lakes. It is no coincidence that the Erie Canal was built to link New York City with the Great Lakes. Future river steamboats, Great Lakes shipping routes, and the railroad all connected to old forts turning them into major cities for the settlement of North America. The military defeats of Harmar and St Clair in the early 1790's did much to serve as a catalyst to building the Army Corps of Engineers in the early 19th Century that became a bulwark organization for settling the frontier.
www.usace.army.mil/About/History/Brief-History-of-the-Corps/Beginnings/
Who do you think largely financed the construction of those roads, bridges, ports, canals and later railways? Hint: the Treaty of Ghent that ended the War of 1812-15 (and which contained several "gentlemen's agreements" not committed to paper, and which sold out the interests of the western indigenous peoples) assured free trade of capital between the UK and US and provided that neither side would seize or freeze the assets of the other even if hostilities should ever be renewed.
I love your channel, this is stuff I've never even heard of
Those damn blankets.
Really enjoy your teaching history guy. Starting to plan out retirement trips to interesting American historical places you are helping me greatly.
The difference between St Clairs defeat and Gen Wayne's victory was the fact that St. Clair ignored the scouting and advice of my 5th great uncle, Captain Richard" Shawtunte" Sparks, a former Shawnee captive/ adoptee of the father of Tecumseh. Gen Anthony Wayne listened to Sparks's advice and won. Captain Sparks is often forgotten, but had a hand in a lot of frontier history.
Love your videos and the format, the older I get the shorter my attention span. Some folks reckon Feb 1973 Wounded Knee was the last uprising, but I don't know. Only a couple hundred folks as I recall. Again thanks for another great video. I watch them in no particular order, so I hope there is not a curriculum involved?
I'm from Indiana. I live 5 miles from the Wabash.
Garret Phegley, I live around thirty miles north of Wabash. Kosciusko County was an Indian Reservation. The Indian village of Monoquet is just north of Warsaw along the Tippecanoe River.
I live in Sullivan county north of Vincennes south of Terre Haute east of the wabash and Illinois.
I’m from Vincennes, right on the Wabash. Also the site of the battle of Ft Sackville. Revolutionary war battle fought in February of 1779.
I'm from Miami county, IN. The descendents of the Miamis run a daycare center in Peru, IN.
What about a video about Tecumseh, prophetstown and the battle of tippecanoe that you alluded too. I remember hearing “Tippecanoe and Tyler too” from the campaign of William Henry Harrison, but have heard very little about this despite living nearby.
This deserves to be remembered, I think it was inconvenient for our ego.
Another time of great embarrassment for the American military was, the Battle of Queenstown Heights during the war of 1812. Out of 3500 roughly American forces went up against a force of 1300 or so 'Canadian' forces....the Americans sustained 100 dead, 170 wounded and 835 captured. They inflicted just 21 killed, 85 wounded and 22 captured. In a battle that they had the advantage of nearly 3 to 1. The indigenous peoples of 'Canada' had a major part to play in that victory.
Side note all us treaties with indian nations have been broken
Douglas Scharbrough ..... All except for one. Look up Fredericksburg, Texas Meusebach-Comanche Treaty! Private citizens who just wanted to live in peace with the native peoples, to live without butchering one another, did what no government could.
@@AH-64-Apache_Attack_Helicopter that was a private treaty though. All governmental ones have been broken
Yes. It was a private treaty. You said, “all US treaties” and considering that Texas was part of the Union, only 2 years prior, It applies to what you said. Also, there was no mention of the US government, and that’s why I was specific that it was people, not government, willing to live with the Native Peoples and not butcher one another. Did you ever see, The Outlaw, Josey Wales?
@@AH-64-Apache_Attack_Helicopter yep saw it and liked it
A well told account of an indian battle victory in early America. I wonder why a lot of Americans haven't heard of it either? The Victor writes the story. So much for another American historian saying that in the Indian wars the USA only lost about 550 dead. These early Indian wars are obviously excluded.
I'm Indian and no wagons were burned during this program............... wheres the whiskey
John Thompson ha!!!!
Was this the battle that Tecumsehs war?
If your an Indian little Johnny I'm a leprechaun.
@@dandales9003 So where IS that pot of gold, Danny Boy???
Funny :-)
Just found your chanel. Thanks for all the time you send getting all the information correct.
WOW!! This is the first time I've heard of this, and I was taught Canadian history (were American defeats are more highlighted). Maybe It's because Joseph Brant and Tecumseh died on Canadian soil that they were considered Canadian heroes against American aggression .
yeah, toke some newly legal canadian weed and be proud of your man child Trudeau
Have you considered doing a show on the Lost Battalion of WW I?
I'd also like to suggest the exploits of USS Johnston of Taffy 3 during WW II.
Both of these deserve to be remembered in my opinion.
S Malkassian Taffy 3!
0:18 A slight adjustment: genocide, lies & conquest -- not merely conquest..
That the city I'm from..Greenville..OH..The last week end of July we celebrate the treaty as well as Annie Oakely since she is also from there..Once they had the entire outline of the fort marked out on the sidewalks..It was amazing just how large that fort really was. as well as the place where the treaty was signed..