I'm in a 2015 Tesla model S and I've currently got 307,000 on the clock and my degradation is currently 14.63% with capacity at 69.58% I'm still happy with it , it's an every day WORKING car and I still enjoy it
@@Cheepchipsable the people who are against evs always talk about $10k battery swaps behaving like if your battery isnt going to make it until next year and that you will have to be paying for a battery swap every year till you are finish with the car, when in reality you have 8-12years on the battery before it gets swapped. So no he didnt pull this from his arse
Hi Richard, I bought my BMW i3 new in 2019. It’s now at just over 50k miles, I’ve not had the traction battery tested, but I’ve not noticed any loss of range. Yes, range is much lower in the cold months, and much better in the warm months, but it was like that from day one. This is my first BEV and despite being nervous about my choice at the time, I’m very pleased with my purchase and have no regrets.
I doubt that the Aviloo flash test would be entirely reliable with the i3 or a probe with app and dongle from what we know. The full expensive Aviloo driving test with data logger might tell you something useful but is it worth it? I'm doing half the mileage you are on mine.
We bought an i3 with 120 Ah battery a few months ago from 2019 with 59.000 km's and an Aviloo score of 97. The seller was specialized in i3's and our was in the number-range of the other cars for the flash test. My wife gets a bit more than 200 km in the current weather (0 degrees Celcius), with a mix of local and motorway travel
People often think that LFP batteries are not 'damaged' by being charged to 100% but this is not true. The only reason LFP batteries need to be regularly charged to 100% is to maintain accurate SOC charge indication. This is because LFP batteries have a very flat voltage curve across SOC so battery voltage can't be used to calculate SOC. LFP batteries meter current in and out to calculate SOC and this drifts. However LFP does have a voltage kick up at 100% SOC so by charging to 100% the SOC baseline can be reset.
Yes, LFP also doesent like to do "small charges", like NMC likes. NMC: always be charging (plug it in and set ti 70-80%). LFP: Better to run it down and charge up in one go.
True - hence the recommendation to charge to 100% just once a month, or thereabouts. I may be wrong, but I think no matter the chemistry, any battery will degrade more the further it is pushed into its high voltage territory. I imagine manufacturers provide a healthy high voltage margin, so that 100% charge corresponds to a reasonably safe voltage, degradation wise, but still advisable to only charge to that level when strictly necessary, and use that top 20-30% of charge immediately after charging to 100% so it doesn't sit there for long.
@@OlavAlexanderMjelde If you look at Jason’s video on Engineering explained (ua-cam.com/video/w1zKfIQUQ-s/v-deo.htmlsi=FX14cWZRynBu5Dmp ), LFP batteries don’t like deep discharge and recharge cycles any more than NMC ones do. The degradation picks up after when charged frequently above 75%, so to minimise degradation setting the charging limit to that level and then once a month recalibrating it by charging to 100% may be a better choice for longevity. But as always, it depends on daily driving needs.
No LFP isn't damaged charging it to 100% as that's only when the BMS can balance the cells thereby enhancing battery life not degrading it. Tell us how the BMS can balance the battery cells if not charged to 100%?!?!
7:10 Probably fair to point out that if Kia and Hyundai are buffering their battery capacity to the degree that you're still getting 100% of rated capacity years after purchase, that's a GOOD thing. The consumer can effectively count on the nominal capacity they were sold on at new, for many years to come because the company over-delivered.
Kia and Hyundai are soo good compared with others that it is hard to believe. Especially for tesla fan boys. Consider also that EGMP cars of Kia/Hyundai are also some of the fastest charging 800V cars. Sometimes double the speed compared with tesla and the rest at 400V. But the test it's real, many owners still get same range as new even after 100k miles or 3-4 years or driving.
@@rizulli See ? This is what I am talking about. And you are not the only one in this case. I heard many users doing tests and concluding the same. So it''s not just reading the battery data that shows this, real life tests also confirm it.
Interesting video rich, that's by far the most extensive dataset of this type I've seen, especially one with all the data generated from a consistent method. Great work!
@gonville1964 I've seen many of Bjorn's videos. His degradation videos are limited to older models and far far less extensive in number. For some other things, sure he's a good source. Nothing about this video that suggests Rich is biasing his output.
Richard - this is a fantastic gold mine of data . 2 mins into the video - really great! On behalf of the BEV industry and owners - existing and prospective thanks for doing this. Awesome.
My MY LR AWD, year 2022 has 4.5% degradation at 46.000 Km. All measured with SMT over OBD2. Always charging from 30% to 80% only, except for some longer trips, where I start with 92% Battery. Due to lifetime issues, I refrained from buying the "Boost". It was hard to resist. So I am happy with the result and I love this car 😊. Excellent content Richard. Thx from Germany.
My 2021 Y Performance degradation was 15.8%😮 with 65,000 miles. 303 new vs 255 old😮maximum range on battery icon. Mostly home charging following Tesla’s recommendations up to 80 to 90% and supercharging only when going out of town occasionally. I dumped it for a model S recently with a bigger battery capacity 😊.
Great project Richard. Something that you may want to consider in your data (and I'm super surprised its not mentioned much in degradation discussions) is battery calendar ageing. Lithium batteries degrade while sitting doing nothing (at different rates depending on SOC, temperature and chemistry). I get the impression (and some lab reports back this up), that calendar ageing becomes more of a dominant factor than cycling for LFP batteries (unless the battery clocks up a lot of cycles in a short time). It would be super interesting to look at battery degradation of cars over time (in years) rather than millage.
Fascinating information as ever. I suspect the thing that affects battery pack longevity the most is the complicated electronic device that sits between the steering wheel and the driver seat.
The graph LFP vs non-LFP is suggesting that at a certain point the RWD (LFP) will have more actual range than a LR Tesla (non-LFP). It's probably 200k miles/320k km, but there might be an actual cross over point that will become a topic once these cars are getting much older.
That will certainly be a great conversation to have in the future once these cars are starting to see at least 7 to 10 years of being on the road! On the other hand, it also makes me hope that by then we will have much better battery technology, seeing the promise of LFP lasting much longer.
I think it's OK for Kia and Hyunday to have an extraordinary high SoH due to large buffers - if the driving range is also reduced by that small degradation number! Meaning that battery aging is not important on these cars for the user's point of view.
Great video and very informative. Great points made in comments about battery age so I have emailed you to book in my Audi E-Tron 55 (2019) and on 80k miles, with you so we can see the battery condition on a 6 year old with that mileage to add to your data set. I have not noticed any degradation (other than weather related).
I have a 2019 Tesla Model 3 LR. I've currently got 250,000 milles on the clock and my degradation is currently 19% It's working perfectly. If you want to add to the study, you can. I want to arrive to 400,000-500,000 milles before changing battery
This is a really useful video. Almost without exception, the first question I get asked when I say I have a nearly 3-year old EV (TMY) is "What about the battery?". I'm a low mileage owner compared with your population at a bit under 20k miles. I haven't done a capacity test, but degredation is barely noticeable in practice and in terms of the car's "guestimate" of mileage against charge level.
@@SamRommer it is indeed incredibly useful data. But “news” now revolves around clickbait headlines to maximise advertising revenue, and it’s harder to get a snappy headline about how EV battery degradation isn’t as bad as people think than it is to write a faux outrage headline about how “EVs suck ‘cause battery dies in 3 years!!!”.
Richard, when comparing Tesla LFP with NMC it might be a good idea to only include cars that are post 2021 because batteries will degrade with age as well as use so having NMC cars that are older than 2021 in the data will distort the result.
Since the LFP are short range and the NMCs* are long range then graphing it by number of charge cycles might be interesting too, not sure if the Teslas report that to the customer - certainly with mine you'd need the dealer diagnostic tools. *or are they LCO chemistry like the early Model S?
Our Kona still had full range at 5.5 years and 103k. At least from a psychological perspective, having a good sized buffer to eke into as the battery degrades makes a lot of sense.
One thing we do know is that you can’t trust auto makers to report anything honestly, the only way to know for sure is to do a full charge and discharge every time you get the cars in and take the numbers from the batteries themselves rather than the software.
My Gen 1 MG ZS is just 5 years & 30,000 miles old. Battery SOH is at 98% as reported by dealer at recent MOT. Only maintenance has been a set of wiper blades. Still on original tyres, brake pads & discs.
Fabulous video. I would caution against drawing too many conclusions when their number of data points is low. But hopefully that will improve in the future. It makes me wonder if electric cars should have their battery capacity recorded during MOT tests!
Great Video. We have done a few SoH tests so far with our Autel Maxisys Ultra EV. So far the EGMP cars seem to be holding up the best had one yesterday 100% SoH at 70000km. My Mini is showing 96% at 25000km
@@simplygregsterev eGMP show 100% SOH long after the true usable capacity has started to reduce, it's bad data. There is a thread somewhere on the international Ioniq forums where Ioniq 5 owners were measuring degradation in real measured capacity. I seem to remember it was similar to what you see with other brands.
Very interesting project, Richard, thanks for sharing. 👍 I would suggest looking at the capacity not only by mileage but also by the age of the battery, as it seems to be another parameter to consider.
Just wanted to say how much I enjoy your content. In terms of your graphs and what they tell you. On the all car graph you should drop the Kia / Hyundai as they are outliers that will corrupt the average. Also with the spread of results being so far above and below the average, you need to go for a Modal average rather than Mean average if you want to estimate what you can expect as the norm. In terms of Tesla it would be interesting to map charging habits v the scatter pattern. Eg does long range fast charged cars come below the norm etc. Another point of interest would be any variance in the condition figure driven by the battery temp at the time it was measured. Cheers again for the interesting content. 😎
Great video. Love the straight talk and the clear presentation. I would be very interested, as the project develops, to see the data presented both as degradation vs. miles, and degradation vs. age. It has been suggested that age per se, may play a bigger role in battery life than is the case in ICE technology. Perhaps a bigger role than miles? I would love to see what the data show. I can't help but notice the large spread around the trend line.
Yep. There is plenty of evidence that age is almost as important as usage. Having a big data set with some proper analysis would be very helpful in distinguishing reality from speculation. e.g grouping by manufacturer will be misleading if the manufacturer uses different chemistries/suppliers/management in different models, or even in different model-years. It can be quite hard to tell when you are comparing lie with like. Comparing non-like doesn't necessarily tell us much.
At 70k miles our 2022 Ioniq 5 also showed 100% SOH, if I did the math myself by charging to 100% then reading remaining energy it had lost 2.9% capacity. Although that reading is effected by temperature and it was around 45F that day. I would guess it's actually down around 2 to 2.5% with no noticeable loss of range yet.
Similar data on carla dealer from sweden webpage. Also Bjorn Nyland mentioned them in his Aviloo interview about two years ago. Wanted to do a similar excel on carla myself, but never managed to find time. I scrolled those results many times gathering empirical conclusions. One of the conclusions is that VW/Audi batteries degrade mostly with age. Tesla degrade both with age and km driven. While Kia/Hyundai keep up great, both with age and km driven.
I also get that Kia and Hyundai are soo good compared with others that it is hard to believe for some. Especially for tesla fan boys. Consider also that EGMP cars of Kia/Hyundai are also some of the fastest charging 800V cars. Sometimes double the speed compared with tesla and the rest at 400V. But the test is real, many owners still get same range as new even after 100k miles or 3-4 years or driving.
Very interesting results. I was surprised at the Tesla Model 3 LFP degradation at 30k miles being greater than the non LFP. I can understand the SR non LFP having higher degradation than the LR, as it's a smaller battery and charged more frequently to achieve the same overall mileage. It would be interesting to compare the charging habits between the LFP and non-LFP cars, to see if LFP cars were charged to 100% more often. Perhaps as more data becomes available a clearer picture will emerge.
yeahp... Tesla recommend charging lfp to 100... but this although helps BMS to calibrate ( more difficult on lfp than NMC due to small voltage variation ) it is proven that in any current lithium based battery, keeping it for long at 100 will degrade it faster... so people may be degrading more the batteries by following manufacturers indications. would really like to have more information but it is still scarce
@@freddykrueger79Yep used to top mine up every few days. Until that recent report which said it will degraded just as much as lithium ion. Now charge it to full when it gets down to 20%. The stated range has now gone up.
Interesting data but I am curious whether batteries degrade due to time more than mileage. My 2019 Model 3 SR+ has done 105,000kms (about 70,000 miles) and has lost about 15% of its original range. I have spoken to fellow owners that have done more than double the miles but have very similar loss of range.
Great video !! I recently did a Battery Health Test which returned -4% while Scan My Tesla ist saying -9% (3,5yrs old LFP55 2021 M3 SR+ 70k kilometers)
Our 70k km, 3 year old Kia eSoul hasn't lost a single km in range so far. It has a big buffer but I suspect it also has a very good battery management system, it sounds like a jet taking off when fast charging. 15kwh/100km average during that period, with about 50% of its total kms made on the motorway. Brilliant car, its been completely flawless.
Kia Soul 64KW 2019. 160K+ km. SOH 100%. Up to 90% motorway (110km/h.) Home charger AC 7KW. No DC . Every time at the service they said that the SOH 100%. I didn't believe them. Then I bought my own OBD scanner. It shows 100%. 💪.
LFP is fascinating, interesting to see after 250k miles or so. Suspect LFP to level off and last a long long time. That first drop could be worrying but really isn’t. Thanks for sharing.
My Model 3 SR is at 178.3 Km driving in Canada at 46 degree latitude. Started with 384 km but now only 314 km available. 19% degradation. My car works well, no major issues. Got my eye on the recently offered Model Y v2, which is certainly better in our snowy climate.
Watched a recent chat between Plug Life TV's - Dr Euan Mcturk (consultant battery electrochemist) and a company rep (Altelium) which provides extended warranties for vehicles out of battery warranty. It was interesting because your findings were indeed valid, but time played an important variable in battery degradation. This also reflects the older battery chemistries, and the data suggests that newer chemistries will laat longer than the older ones are doing, but even the older ones are lasting a lot longer than was envisaged, to the consternation of battery material recyclers, who still haven't been able to really get upto speed yet.
@@JohnnyMotel99 They'll also say that the batteries are full of rare and expensive materials, immediately followed by they end up in landfill; logic has stepped out of the room!
Good stuff. So much unfounded FUD around. Battery also degrades over time as well as use, however many of the very long distance (100k+) ones probably decent age as well ?
What's missing is the age of the cars as age is also a factor in battery life. I would also be interested to see how much better battery heating/cooling effects it (e.g. model 3 pre/post heat pump).
A lot of manufacturers have a bit of the battery that doesn’t get used as a buffer, this then would artificially give a better degradation result as you can use that as a recovery buffer.
Two Model 3s in our family. Oldest a 3 year old M3P with 46000km. 9% degradation from Panasonic pack (Shanghai car). Newest 2 year old M3LR with 50000km and 5% degradation from the LG pack. The Panasonic pack in the older car is a known problem child for degradation (i will need to look up the part number again). Obviously some different between packs but calender aging may have had more impact on this particular example.
I was at a charging station on hwy 17 in northern Ontario and visited with an American with an early model s. He was traveling the country enjoying the unlimited free charging. He was very happy with his car.
I recently returned the electric van I purchased in 2025 as it was only delivering 108miles for a full 75kwh charge when the WLTP said 211 and the van claimed 169 when full but travelling at 50-54 mph with very gentle acceleration it averaged 108 miles range after a 78 mile journey. It had done under 20k. I needed 120 miles real world range so would have been happy with 140-150 as I could generally keep the battery in the sweet spot of 20-80% but the experienced range was a long way of the claimed and expected. I do want to go electric but it's back to diesel for the next few years for me as they just don't do anywhere near what is claimed in the latest vans in my experience. Interesting video as I suspect I got one of those Friday afternoon vehicles which are showing sub 80% in your results.
Thanks Richard, really interesting to see this and agree with the overall conclusion. Although being able attach a number to battery degradation feels like a big step forward, I wondered if there need to be a few more caveats around what exactly the Aviloo flash test is measuring, and what the numbers mean. For example I see on their website that it's only on the (longer) premium test that they actually calculate a state of health, which implies that there are some limitations to the flash test.. And it's not clear to me whether some of the measurements are relative (I.e. relative to a benchmark based on scores from similar models) or absolute. Maybe you could do a follow-up video interviewing someone from Aviloo?
It It odd that certain corners are pushing for hybrids but neglect to mention battery degradation of hybrid packs that often do without thermal management!
Good video to gather the facts. I’d like to see a video on the cost of ownership over say 130k miles. It might be useful to indicate the cost of a battery replacement in the worst case scenario.
I use an OBDC2 plug and Car Scanner app on my 71reg Ioniq5. At c.30K mileage it showed 95% battery capacity. The car went to the dealership at 34K and their report was 94.5% capacity. So the car seems to be following the same curve as the LMC Teslas.
Definitely worth considering that brands like Mercedes seem to include large buffers to their 'chargeable' SOCs which keeps battery health super high while Tesla for example has almost no buffer and immediately eating into the usable range. My EQV 300 now after 4 years and 110.000km still is reporting 96% SOH with a lot of DC charging and sitting at 100% during its lifetime.
Hi Richard, this is a really interesting presentation, thanks. It would be good if you could include some data on BMWs next time please. I wonder if Tesla’s drop more capacity initially, because Tesla encourage customers to charge them to 100%. The main reason for this seems to be to keep the capacity and range estimation accurate, rather than for the health of the battery. There is significant variability across cars of the same type. It would be interesting to know whether this is due to random variability in manufacture, or how carefully the owner looked after the car. I’m not sure if you have access to data that could help on that - e.g. how often the owner had charged to 100%, or let the state of charge drop to near 0%.
We have a 2018 Model S 75D, and after a bit over 6 years and around 62k miles, TeslaFi’s battery degradation report suggests around a 4.8% loss of range relative to the starting range when we first got the car.
My early UK Model 3 SR+, now 5+ years is only charged to 80% for most use as I need to stop for a comfort break by then. As long as it can do 80% charge I won't really notice the difference except on a couple of journeys a year when I'll need to rethink my pit-stops. Going down to single figure mileage doesn't worry me as the superchargers are so reliable.
Same. My 2019 SR+ is at 63k now and based on fully charged mileage shown now vs when delivered I estimate 7% deg, but it’s immaterial to my use of the car.
I think the best way to check battery degradation apart from different types of batteries, the most important thing is how they usually charge the battery.For example the best way for daily use in an NMC battery is 45/50-75% and for LFP you can charge up to 100%.So for the NMC batteries the degradation will be a lot less.
My 2017 90X was still showing 93% capacity at 150 k miles. I’m at 175k now and maybe I’ve dropped a couple of miles on a full charge since then. The amazing thing is that supercharging has been used for 99% of that mileage which is often referred to as being detrimental to battery longevity.
I think the key take home here is the massive variation in degradation irrespective of mileage. You could do 40k miles and have a not uncommon degradation of 15%. It doesn’t neatly follow your line of best fit. It is basically a lucky (or unlucky) dip.
A really informative video which shows the longevity of EVs. Are you able to compare the smart options once the vehicles go out of warranty? My understanding is that the Kia’s in the UK might lose access to Kia Connect after 7 years which means that battery pre-conditioning and remote heating would stop as an example.
I think there was some confusion in the LFP M3 2021/22 model years as there was two different battery pack sizes: 55 + 60KW, and these were misplotted giving erroneously high degradation for the 55kw packs.
I ran a 2014 Model S and had warranty HV battery replacements at 83k, 104k, and 114k. Every time, it was the failure of a PCB component, not the cells (still had the same 220 mile range) before PCB failure stopped play. As the warranty was due to expire, I sold the car for £18k as the out of warranty replacement was quoted at £17,500.
The real news for me, always take the bigger battery. 80 % of 77 kwh is enough power for travel. 80 % of 50 kwh is only 40 kwh left. This means charging brake ever 90 - 120 min. With 62 kwh left u kann go 3 to 4 hours without brake. And after 3.5 hours u normally need a break for urself. So u dont lose time because u would have stopped anyway.
I did a 528 mile drive in a 2019 Model 3 SR+ at 83% SoH. Took 11 hours (with some traffic and road works), really fine experience if you're not in a hurry
I think that Hyundai/Kia took a leaf out of the old Ampera and put a massive buffer, the Ampera had a 16kwh with only 10-11kwh useable, My 2020 Hyundai Ioniq has a 40.4kWh lithium-ion polymer battery, with a usable capacity of 38.3kwh, after 88,000 miles last summer I charged up to 249 miles, still reads 100%, winter coldest temp 190 miles. So performing really well and much better than I expected.
My Peugeot E-Expert van has done 103,000 miles and Car Scanner states 90.1% SOC. Original Capacity 75Kwh with 68kwh usable is 90.7%. My home charger shows it is still putting in 67kwh to 68kwh charge to 100%. Not noticed any range drop other than expected weather related drops.
Running costs I’m quids in with home charging and Tesla/Ionity memberships. Still on the original rear tyres (3mm tread left) which I’ve never had from any vehicle before. Fronts changed at 56k. 3 x services with one pair of front pads (could have kept the old ones as plenty left) plus 1 light bulb! Just passed its MOT with the tester commenting “it’s in mint condition!”
I think an important factor to consider in this equation would be battery age. I'd be curious to see degradation on a 5 year-old battery with 20.000 miles on it, for example. I think time matters even more than mileage when it comes to batteries.
I have just made a similar point before reading your text. I think age maybe more important than miiles travelled. I would be interested to know how long in years Elon says the battery should last before getting to 70%. 10 years, 11, 12 maybe. does the degradation fall off a cliff at 10 years? we will know in 3-5 years.
Just reading your message again. My EV is nearly 9 years old but only 41 k miles with 42% battery degradation and 5 out of 12 bars lost. So aged but not many cycles. I know my EV is not up to date tech for battery environment control but an indication none the less. Modern battery environment tech may slow it down, but nowhere near stop it. With age, a bigger battery does not slow down age related degradation either.
@@FredFox-m9v talking about bars I assume you have a Leaf although I coulkd be wrong. Battery technology and chemistry will get better over time and maybe in 10 or 20 years batteries ev's will be the better option. Ev's are still fairly new in the current configuration, not talking about milk floats of the 50's and 60's, unfortunatley I do remember them, well from the 60's anyway.
This its completely true. We have in company here in Sweden a lot of different BEV’s which were using every day regularly. Every car it’s test battery health with Aviloo every 3 month. So, old Tesla model S still have 93% in battery after 210.000 km 😳. Tesla model 3 SR LFP 2020 90% 90.000km, Polestar 2 LR FWD 95% 115.000km, KIA EV6 LR RW 99% 220.000 km, Tesla model Y AWD 91%, 76.000km…. etc,etc….
Very interesting- thank you for providing the data. Observations for me are LFP seems to be the chemistry of choice and Tesla are middling to low on longevity beaten by many other brands.
With the counterpoint that Tesla actually has ranges that top their competitors when new, and will match their competitors when heavily used. It's like people charging their phone to 80%. Sure, it'll last longer. You'll also never actually be able to use the full range of the car when it's new. I much prefer Tesla's stance. I'm at 5 years and 150k km, and I'm just now at the point of range where my friend's Kia Niro has been since he bought it. So for the last 5 years, my car went alot further on a single charge.
@@Jeroenneman True, Tesla have always been the efficiency kings. But with cars that are now cheaper and have bigger batteries for the price, efficiency is less of a problem as the range will be the same. You only lose out most when public charging, but home charging will only cost a little more.
I have a 2020 Model 3 Performance which has completed 44k. The range has fallen to 200 miles on a full charge, a far cry from the 328 miles promised but never acheived. I have learnt not to believe the estimated range of the battery charge meter. The best method to determine range is by putting in a destination and see what range it gives, and by large it is pretty spot on. Cold weather performance is further erroded to about 150 miles. Have I got a dud or is there an element of looking through rose tinted glasses here??
Good data, In reality a breakdown of A/C & DC charging might also show a big effect on degradation. Certainly shows that batteries are not the issue that we keep being feed by the fudders.
So it all came very down to battery temperature management. After this got implemented the stats have become fantastic. Who would have thought, it was like running petrol engine without coolant in the radiator.
Would be interesting to look at old BMW i3s plenty out there with over 100,000 miles now and on smaller batteries so more charging cycles etc. I know if one smallest battery Rex with over 230,000 miles on the clock original battery and OK range according to the owner. Bjorn Nyland’s tests show good results for the little Beemer - I assume the bigger BMWs do well too . Is there a time factor as well as a use factor on degradation too.? There are lots of older LEAF Zoe and i3 out there, but they wouldn’t fall under your lease car scenario 😊
Hi Richard. I'm looking at buying a used, facelift Mini electric , which has a small battery anyway. 32.8 kwh, but 28 usable.I don't travel very far, but wouldn't want to lose a lot of the range to battery degradation . How are Mini/ BMW looking on your data? My other option is a 58kwh VW id3. At least with the id3, there's enough capacity to offset the degradation. Great video by the way 👏
I have a BYD, 126S1P 400V 60KWhr (useable) LFP blade cell traction battery. There is a further 2KWhr unusable designed to keep the battery 'alive'. Over the first 18 months of ownership capacity in terms of range, drifted up by about 5%. Its now stabilised and I have seen no change over the last six months. I only fast charge occassionally, mainly on trips. I limit DC fast charging to between 25% and 85%. Normal charging is slow using AC. In normal weekly use I slow charge once a week to 100%. Every six months I do a 'long slow charge' from less than 10% to 100% in accordance with BYD's recommendation. Overall very happy with the vehicle's performance.
Thank you for sharing that data! As a current Tesla owner who has aspirations to become a Taycan owner I’ve been put off by the negativity around the J1.1’s battery. Any chance of Taycan being part of this?
My previous '15 model S 85D had 336k km when I sold it at 6-7% degredation on the original pack. Pretty impressive stuff. My current '17 P100DL has 250k km and 7-8% degredation.
Done 123k miles in my Kona. Last OBD reading (within the past month) was 96.6% state of health. Note, I own the car so I've looked after the battery. Only occasionally fully charge, extremely rare I go below 10% and have only DC charged a handful of times. As others have mentioned elsewhere, I assume this is not the actual degradation of the cells. It's more likely some figure arrived at by using up some of the factory buffer.
Cars using LFP currently have smaller batteries than the higher spec versions of the same model that don't use LFP, so will need more charge/discharge cycles to cover the same miles. Examples include MG4, Tesla 3 & Y. It is the number of cycles that is usually judged to cause degradation, together with age.
It'll be interesting to see the figures when Toyota/Lexus get to sufficient numbers and ages, with their 600000km/10/15yr warranties. They have a lot of experience of charging/discharging batteries and were slated for their slow charge speeds and old tech but I have a feeling the slow and steady approach might reap rewards down the line.
Interesting that this information is all gleaned from the vehicle’s (and by extension , the manufacturer’s ) self-reporting. I wonder if there could be some VW-dieselgate reporting happening. We’re completely trusting the integrity of the data the manufacturers are providing to give this whole video. I’m not convinced the lithium technology between manufacturers, the charging/discharge regime or the environmental controls would be wildly different.
My model S is out of warranty was 8 years , unlimited miles however it has been out of warranty since December 2023 but i do know there are two places in the UK who can repair Tesla battery packs and motors and im sure as time goes on there will be more of these kind of repair centres springing up as it can be a lot cheaper than paying for a new or refurbished pack or motor
Another interesting EV video Richard. I see you are wearing a Fitbit type ring, how is the Richard health going. Very well I trust, I want to see a lot more of these videos.
Thanks, hopefully the myth of the battery needing replacing after a few years is fading, along with all the other myths. Yes there will be an occasional battery failure and and occasional fire, but less than ICE car engine failure and fires.
As with all statistics, the result depends on how the subjects (batteries in this case) are selected. Ideally for accurate data you would need a sample that is not dependent on the owner deciding to get the battery tested.
My 2021 M3P has 161,000 miles on it now. Scan my Tesla says I have 63.5kwh nominal remaining from the original 82.1kwh. 22.7% degradation. Car has been 60+% supercharged through its life in the UK! Thought it would be better, but maybe the Panasonic battery isn’t as good as the older smaller capacity one?
I'm in a 2015 Tesla model S and I've currently got 307,000 on the clock and my degradation is currently 14.63% with capacity at 69.58% I'm still happy with it , it's an every day WORKING car and I still enjoy it
Good mileage 👍
Where is the rest of the battery percentage ? 14.63 + 69.58 = 84.21% ! Am I missing something ? 😂
Translate this to us please. It doesn't add up to 100%
Probably you meant 69.58 kWh?!
Fair play💪😎
Cracking video Richard. Really helps dispel the myth that EV batteries will need replacing after 3 years.
Try explaining this to petrolheads
Never heard that one, so pulled it from your nether regions?
@@Cheepchipsable the people who are against evs always talk about $10k battery swaps behaving like if your battery isnt going to make it until next year and that you will have to be paying for a battery swap every year till you are finish with the car, when in reality you have 8-12years on the battery before it gets swapped. So no he didnt pull this from his arse
My petrol tank is 25 years old.
Hi Richard, I bought my BMW i3 new in 2019. It’s now at just over 50k miles, I’ve not had the traction battery tested, but I’ve not noticed any loss of range. Yes, range is much lower in the cold months, and much better in the warm months, but it was like that from day one. This is my first BEV and despite being nervous about my choice at the time, I’m very pleased with my purchase and have no regrets.
I doubt that the Aviloo flash test would be entirely reliable with the i3 or a probe with app and dongle from what we know. The full expensive Aviloo driving test with data logger might tell you something useful but is it worth it? I'm doing half the mileage you are on mine.
We bought an i3 with 120 Ah battery a few months ago from 2019 with 59.000 km's and an Aviloo score of 97. The seller was specialized in i3's and our was in the number-range of the other cars for the flash test. My wife gets a bit more than 200 km in the current weather (0 degrees Celcius), with a mix of local and motorway travel
People often think that LFP batteries are not 'damaged' by being charged to 100% but this is not true. The only reason LFP batteries need to be regularly charged to 100% is to maintain accurate SOC charge indication. This is because LFP batteries have a very flat voltage curve across SOC so battery voltage can't be used to calculate SOC. LFP batteries meter current in and out to calculate SOC and this drifts. However LFP does have a voltage kick up at 100% SOC so by charging to 100% the SOC baseline can be reset.
Yes, LFP also doesent like to do "small charges", like NMC likes.
NMC: always be charging (plug it in and set ti 70-80%).
LFP: Better to run it down and charge up in one go.
True - hence the recommendation to charge to 100% just once a month, or thereabouts. I may be wrong, but I think no matter the chemistry, any battery will degrade more the further it is pushed into its high voltage territory. I imagine manufacturers provide a healthy high voltage margin, so that 100% charge corresponds to a reasonably safe voltage, degradation wise, but still advisable to only charge to that level when strictly necessary, and use that top 20-30% of charge immediately after charging to 100% so it doesn't sit there for long.
@@malk6277 Yeah, I am surprised Tesla say to charge to 100% once per week and even recommend leaving the max charge set to 100% permanently
@@OlavAlexanderMjelde
If you look at Jason’s video on Engineering explained (ua-cam.com/video/w1zKfIQUQ-s/v-deo.htmlsi=FX14cWZRynBu5Dmp ), LFP batteries don’t like deep discharge and recharge cycles any more than NMC ones do. The degradation picks up after when charged frequently above 75%, so to minimise degradation setting the charging limit to that level and then once a month recalibrating it by charging to 100% may be a better choice for longevity. But as always, it depends on daily driving needs.
No LFP isn't damaged charging it to 100% as that's only when the BMS can balance the cells thereby enhancing battery life not degrading it.
Tell us how the BMS can balance the battery cells if not charged to 100%?!?!
7:10 Probably fair to point out that if Kia and Hyundai are buffering their battery capacity to the degree that you're still getting 100% of rated capacity years after purchase, that's a GOOD thing. The consumer can effectively count on the nominal capacity they were sold on at new, for many years to come because the company over-delivered.
Kia and Hyundai are soo good compared with others that it is hard to believe. Especially for tesla fan boys. Consider also that EGMP cars of Kia/Hyundai are also some of the fastest charging 800V cars. Sometimes double the speed compared with tesla and the rest at 400V. But the test it's real, many owners still get same range as new even after 100k miles or 3-4 years or driving.
@@flavianddI’ve had a Kona Electric for 4.5 years. Almost 110,000 kms and the range is exactly the same.
@@rizulli See ? This is what I am talking about. And you are not the only one in this case. I heard many users doing tests and concluding the same. So it''s not just reading the battery data that shows this, real life tests also confirm it.
Yes
@@flaviandd But in the meanwhile the Tesla's lose almost nothing so what's the point.
Interesting video rich, that's by far the most extensive dataset of this type I've seen, especially one with all the data generated from a consistent method. Great work!
Look up Bjorn Nyland. He pretty much has the independent test data over many models and it’s his profession. He doesn’t sell cars.
@gonville1964 I've seen many of Bjorn's videos. His degradation videos are limited to older models and far far less extensive in number. For some other things, sure he's a good source.
Nothing about this video that suggests Rich is biasing his output.
Battery health is 85.37% with degradation of 14.63% so and usable is 69.58kwh hope that answers your question
@@johnthorpe459 that's good going
Richard - this is a fantastic gold mine of data . 2 mins into the video - really great! On behalf of the BEV industry and owners - existing and prospective thanks for doing this. Awesome.
I’m thinking of buying a used ev this year and this really helps my confidence, many thanks
My MY LR AWD, year 2022 has 4.5% degradation at 46.000 Km. All measured with SMT over OBD2.
Always charging from 30% to 80% only, except for some longer trips, where I start with 92% Battery. Due to lifetime issues, I refrained from buying the "Boost". It was hard to resist.
So I am happy with the result and I love this car 😊.
Excellent content Richard. Thx from Germany.
my my?
My 2021 Y Performance degradation was 15.8%😮 with 65,000 miles. 303 new vs 255 old😮maximum range on battery icon. Mostly home charging following Tesla’s recommendations up to 80 to 90% and supercharging only when going out of town occasionally. I dumped it for a model S recently with a bigger battery capacity 😊.
Great project Richard. Something that you may want to consider in your data (and I'm super surprised its not mentioned much in degradation discussions) is battery calendar ageing. Lithium batteries degrade while sitting doing nothing (at different rates depending on SOC, temperature and chemistry). I get the impression (and some lab reports back this up), that calendar ageing becomes more of a dominant factor than cycling for LFP batteries (unless the battery clocks up a lot of cycles in a short time).
It would be super interesting to look at battery degradation of cars over time (in years) rather than millage.
This is a great video and great data, thanks for producing it.
Fascinating information as ever. I suspect the thing that affects battery pack longevity the most is the complicated electronic device that sits between the steering wheel and the driver seat.
The graph LFP vs non-LFP is suggesting that at a certain point the RWD (LFP) will have more actual range than a LR Tesla (non-LFP). It's probably 200k miles/320k km, but there might be an actual cross over point that will become a topic once these cars are getting much older.
What the % of people than take cars at 200000miles ? Where I live it's pretty damn low. Like more than 10-15 years to get there
That will certainly be a great conversation to have in the future once these cars are starting to see at least 7 to 10 years of being on the road! On the other hand, it also makes me hope that by then we will have much better battery technology, seeing the promise of LFP lasting much longer.
I think it's OK for Kia and Hyunday to have an extraordinary high SoH due to large buffers - if the driving range is also reduced by that small degradation number! Meaning that battery aging is not important on these cars for the user's point of view.
Great video and very informative. Great points made in comments about battery age so I have emailed you to book in my Audi E-Tron 55 (2019) and on 80k miles, with you so we can see the battery condition on a 6 year old with that mileage to add to your data set. I have not noticed any degradation (other than weather related).
I have a 2019 Tesla Model 3 LR. I've currently got 250,000 milles on the clock and my degradation is currently 19% It's working perfectly. If you want to add to the study, you can. I want to arrive to 400,000-500,000 milles before changing battery
what are your charging habits?
@@wisconsinfarmer4742 , I charge 60% in superchargers (150kW-250kW), 10% in AC chargers (11kW), and 30% home (2,5kW)
Great stuff. Thank you for taking the time to do this analysis
This is a really useful video. Almost without exception, the first question I get asked when I say I have a nearly 3-year old EV (TMY) is "What about the battery?". I'm a low mileage owner compared with your population at a bit under 20k miles. I haven't done a capacity test, but degredation is barely noticeable in practice and in terms of the car's "guestimate" of mileage against charge level.
This is incredible data. Thank you. Wish the newspapers would start reporting this. Approx 10% every 100k miles or less is extremely good.
@@SamRommer it is indeed incredibly useful data. But “news” now revolves around clickbait headlines to maximise advertising revenue, and it’s harder to get a snappy headline about how EV battery degradation isn’t as bad as people think than it is to write a faux outrage headline about how “EVs suck ‘cause battery dies in 3 years!!!”.
Richard, when comparing Tesla LFP with NMC it might be a good idea to only include cars that are post 2021 because batteries will degrade with age as well as use so having NMC cars that are older than 2021 in the data will distort the result.
Since the LFP are short range and the NMCs* are long range then graphing it by number of charge cycles might be interesting too, not sure if the Teslas report that to the customer - certainly with mine you'd need the dealer diagnostic tools. *or are they LCO chemistry like the early Model S?
Our Kona still had full range at 5.5 years and 103k. At least from a psychological perspective, having a good sized buffer to eke into as the battery degrades makes a lot of sense.
One thing we do know is that you can’t trust auto makers to report anything honestly, the only way to know for sure is to do a full charge and discharge every time you get the cars in and take the numbers from the batteries themselves rather than the software.
This ^^^^^^
Very useful information going forward, keep up the good work👍
My Gen 1 MG ZS is just 5 years & 30,000 miles old. Battery SOH is at 98% as reported by dealer at recent MOT. Only maintenance has been a set of wiper blades. Still on original tyres, brake pads & discs.
They are very inexpensive to run, this is the big issue for the industry.
That's really impressive, same car here 2021 registered already at 90% 50,000 km sadly. I had really took care of the battery but..😢
Fabulous video. I would caution against drawing too many conclusions when their number of data points is low. But hopefully that will improve in the future. It makes me wonder if electric cars should have their battery capacity recorded during MOT tests!
It should certainly become a standard to have them measured at least once every 2 years or so.
Great Video. We have done a few SoH tests so far with our Autel Maxisys Ultra EV. So far the EGMP cars seem to be holding up the best had one yesterday 100% SoH at 70000km. My Mini is showing 96% at 25000km
@@simplygregsterev eGMP show 100% SOH long after the true usable capacity has started to reduce, it's bad data. There is a thread somewhere on the international Ioniq forums where Ioniq 5 owners were measuring degradation in real measured capacity. I seem to remember it was similar to what you see with other brands.
Very interesting project, Richard, thanks for sharing. 👍
I would suggest looking at the capacity not only by mileage but also by the age of the battery, as it seems to be another parameter to consider.
I agree. Is degradation a function of age or mileage (or both)
I am gathering the data incl age so can report on that too further down the line
Just wanted to say how much I enjoy your content. In terms of your graphs and what they tell you. On the all car graph you should drop the Kia / Hyundai as they are outliers that will corrupt the average. Also with the spread of results being so far above and below the average, you need to go for a Modal average rather than Mean average if you want to estimate what you can expect as the norm. In terms of Tesla it would be interesting to map charging habits v the scatter pattern. Eg does long range fast charged cars come below the norm etc. Another point of interest would be any variance in the condition figure driven by the battery temp at the time it was measured. Cheers again for the interesting content. 😎
Great video. Love the straight talk and the clear presentation.
I would be very interested, as the project develops, to see the data presented both as degradation vs. miles, and degradation vs. age. It has been suggested that age per se, may play a bigger role in battery life than is the case in ICE technology. Perhaps a bigger role than miles? I would love to see what the data show. I can't help but notice the large spread around the trend line.
Yep. There is plenty of evidence that age is almost as important as usage. Having a big data set with some proper analysis would be very helpful in distinguishing reality from speculation. e.g grouping by manufacturer will be misleading if the manufacturer uses different chemistries/suppliers/management in different models, or even in different model-years. It can be quite hard to tell when you are comparing lie with like. Comparing non-like doesn't necessarily tell us much.
Very interesting video and a good response to the FUD spread by the 15 minute city crowd.
At 70k miles our 2022 Ioniq 5 also showed 100% SOH, if I did the math myself by charging to 100% then reading remaining energy it had lost 2.9% capacity. Although that reading is effected by temperature and it was around 45F that day. I would guess it's actually down around 2 to 2.5% with no noticeable loss of range yet.
Great video Richard, sheds some light on battery deg 😇
@Richard, is there some where we cab see this information?
Similar data on carla dealer from sweden webpage. Also Bjorn Nyland mentioned them in his Aviloo interview about two years ago. Wanted to do a similar excel on carla myself, but never managed to find time. I scrolled those results many times gathering empirical conclusions. One of the conclusions is that VW/Audi batteries degrade mostly with age. Tesla degrade both with age and km driven. While Kia/Hyundai keep up great, both with age and km driven.
I also get that Kia and Hyundai are soo good compared with others that it is hard to believe for some. Especially for tesla fan boys. Consider also that EGMP cars of Kia/Hyundai are also some of the fastest charging 800V cars. Sometimes double the speed compared with tesla and the rest at 400V. But the test is real, many owners still get same range as new even after 100k miles or 3-4 years or driving.
Very interesting results. I was surprised at the Tesla Model 3 LFP degradation at 30k miles being greater than the non LFP. I can understand the SR non LFP having higher degradation than the LR, as it's a smaller battery and charged more frequently to achieve the same overall mileage. It would be interesting to compare the charging habits between the LFP and non-LFP cars, to see if LFP cars were charged to 100% more often. Perhaps as more data becomes available a clearer picture will emerge.
yeahp... Tesla recommend charging lfp to 100... but this although helps BMS to calibrate ( more difficult on lfp than NMC due to small voltage variation ) it is proven that in any current lithium based battery, keeping it for long at 100 will degrade it faster... so people may be degrading more the batteries by following manufacturers indications. would really like to have more information but it is still scarce
@@freddykrueger79Yep used to top mine up every few days. Until that recent report which said it will degraded just as much as lithium ion.
Now charge it to full when it gets down to 20%.
The stated range has now gone up.
@jonnya245 to recalibrate BMS you probably just need to charge from 20 to 100 once a month and don't keep car for 100%soc for much time
Interesting data but I am curious whether batteries degrade due to time more than mileage. My 2019 Model 3 SR+ has done 105,000kms (about 70,000 miles) and has lost about 15% of its original range. I have spoken to fellow owners that have done more than double the miles but have very similar loss of range.
Yes, I was wondering the same. Would a 5 year old car with zero miles have same capacity as brand new car?
Great video !! I recently did a Battery Health Test which returned -4% while Scan My Tesla ist saying -9% (3,5yrs old LFP55 2021 M3 SR+ 70k kilometers)
My 2019 M3 SR is now 101k!
92% battery health, I'm so proud of it🎉😊
wait till you come to sell it!
Our 70k km, 3 year old Kia eSoul hasn't lost a single km in range so far. It has a big buffer but I suspect it also has a very good battery management system, it sounds like a jet taking off when fast charging. 15kwh/100km average during that period, with about 50% of its total kms made on the motorway. Brilliant car, its been completely flawless.
Kia Soul 64KW 2019. 160K+ km. SOH 100%. Up to 90% motorway (110km/h.) Home charger AC 7KW. No DC .
Every time at the service they said that the SOH 100%. I didn't believe them. Then I bought my own OBD scanner. It shows 100%. 💪.
LFP is fascinating, interesting to see after 250k miles or so. Suspect LFP to level off and last a long long time. That first drop could be worrying but really isn’t. Thanks for sharing.
My Model 3 SR is at 178.3 Km driving in Canada at 46 degree latitude. Started with 384 km but now only 314 km available. 19% degradation. My car works well, no major issues. Got my eye on the recently offered Model Y v2, which is certainly better in our snowy climate.
Really useful topic. Be good to see regular updates as you build the dataset.
Watched a recent chat between Plug Life TV's - Dr Euan Mcturk (consultant battery electrochemist) and a company rep (Altelium) which provides extended warranties for vehicles out of battery warranty. It was interesting because your findings were indeed valid, but time played an important variable in battery degradation. This also reflects the older battery chemistries, and the data suggests that newer chemistries will laat longer than the older ones are doing, but even the older ones are lasting a lot longer than was envisaged, to the consternation of battery material recyclers, who still haven't been able to really get upto speed yet.
I find it amusing when EV-deniers state that batteries will only last 10 years maximum.
@@JohnnyMotel99 Well, at least they're up from 3 years, so at least they're improving.
@@ramblerandy2397my problem is that the battery keeps catching fire each week.
@@JohnnyMotel99 They'll also say that the batteries are full of rare and expensive materials, immediately followed by they end up in landfill; logic has stepped out of the room!
@ And all those battery recyclers are eager to show them they're wrong.
Good stuff. So much unfounded FUD around. Battery also degrades over time as well as use, however many of the very long distance (100k+) ones probably decent age as well ?
What's missing is the age of the cars as age is also a factor in battery life. I would also be interested to see how much better battery heating/cooling effects it (e.g. model 3 pre/post heat pump).
A lot of manufacturers have a bit of the battery that doesn’t get used as a buffer, this then would artificially give a better degradation result as you can use that as a recovery buffer.
Two Model 3s in our family.
Oldest a 3 year old M3P with 46000km. 9% degradation from Panasonic pack (Shanghai car).
Newest 2 year old M3LR with 50000km and 5% degradation from the LG pack.
The Panasonic pack in the older car is a known problem child for degradation (i will need to look up the part number again). Obviously some different between packs but calender aging may have had more impact on this particular example.
thats pretty terrible as both of your cars are at 30 000 miles or less on this chart.
I was at a charging station on hwy 17 in northern Ontario and visited with an American with an early model s. He was traveling the country enjoying the unlimited free charging. He was very happy with his car.
I recently returned the electric van I purchased in 2025 as it was only delivering 108miles for a full 75kwh charge when the WLTP said 211 and the van claimed 169 when full but travelling at 50-54 mph with very gentle acceleration it averaged 108 miles range after a 78 mile journey. It had done under 20k. I needed 120 miles real world range so would have been happy with 140-150 as I could generally keep the battery in the sweet spot of 20-80% but the experienced range was a long way of the claimed and expected. I do want to go electric but it's back to diesel for the next few years for me as they just don't do anywhere near what is claimed in the latest vans in my experience. Interesting video as I suspect I got one of those Friday afternoon vehicles which are showing sub 80% in your results.
Thanks Richard, really interesting to see this and agree with the overall conclusion. Although being able attach a number to battery degradation feels like a big step forward, I wondered if there need to be a few more caveats around what exactly the Aviloo flash test is measuring, and what the numbers mean. For example I see on their website that it's only on the (longer) premium test that they actually calculate a state of health, which implies that there are some limitations to the flash test.. And it's not clear to me whether some of the measurements are relative (I.e. relative to a benchmark based on scores from similar models) or absolute. Maybe you could do a follow-up video interviewing someone from Aviloo?
It It odd that certain corners are pushing for hybrids but neglect to mention battery degradation of hybrid packs that often do without thermal management!
A friend is shopping for a 2020 Prius with 150,000km and it has a 40% battery degradation so far.
@Twin.motors interesting to know.
Good video to gather the facts. I’d like to see a video on the cost of ownership over say 130k miles. It might be useful to indicate the cost of a battery replacement in the worst case scenario.
I use an OBDC2 plug and Car Scanner app on my 71reg Ioniq5. At c.30K mileage it showed 95% battery capacity. The car went to the dealership at 34K and their report was 94.5% capacity. So the car seems to be following the same curve as the LMC Teslas.
My 2022 Ionic 5 has just hit 80k, SoH is at 100%. I have only DC fast charged four times and the rest is at 7kW at home.
Much appreciated Richard thank you. It’s LR AWD will go to 100% Friday night as using sat am which will bring it back to about 80%
Definitely worth considering that brands like Mercedes seem to include large buffers to their 'chargeable' SOCs which keeps battery health super high while Tesla for example has almost no buffer and immediately eating into the usable range.
My EQV 300 now after 4 years and 110.000km still is reporting 96% SOH with a lot of DC charging and sitting at 100% during its lifetime.
It should be very interesting to see only calendar dégradation regardless the milage on your study if possible! Thanks for the vidéo!
Hi Richard, this is a really interesting presentation, thanks. It would be good if you could include some data on BMWs next time please. I wonder if Tesla’s drop more capacity initially, because Tesla encourage customers to charge them to 100%. The main reason for this seems to be to keep the capacity and range estimation accurate, rather than for the health of the battery. There is significant variability across cars of the same type. It would be interesting to know whether this is due to random variability in manufacture, or how carefully the owner looked after the car. I’m not sure if you have access to data that could help on that - e.g. how often the owner had charged to 100%, or let the state of charge drop to near 0%.
Great video Champ!
We have a 2018 Model S 75D, and after a bit over 6 years and around 62k miles, TeslaFi’s battery degradation report suggests around a 4.8% loss of range relative to the starting range when we first got the car.
My S 2018 ,150 k km show 6% degradation.
My early UK Model 3 SR+, now 5+ years is only charged to 80% for most use as I need to stop for a comfort break by then. As long as it can do 80% charge I won't really notice the difference except on a couple of journeys a year when I'll need to rethink my pit-stops. Going down to single figure mileage doesn't worry me as the superchargers are so reliable.
Same. My 2019 SR+ is at 63k now and based on fully charged mileage shown now vs when delivered I estimate 7% deg, but it’s immaterial to my use of the car.
It’ll always charge to 80%……but of a declining capacity
I look forward to the eventual commercialisation of solid state batteries. These current lithium battery studies will be assigned to nostalgia.
I think the best way to check battery degradation apart from different types of batteries, the most important thing is how they usually charge the battery.For example the best way for daily use in an NMC battery is 45/50-75% and for LFP you can charge up to 100%.So for the NMC batteries the degradation will be a lot less.
Thanks for sharing. It dispels any myth with ev battery. Feeling better about acquiring an ev.
Very interesting study. Keep it up.
My 2017 90X was still showing 93% capacity at 150 k miles. I’m at 175k now and maybe I’ve dropped a couple of miles on a full charge since then. The amazing thing is that supercharging has been used for 99% of that mileage which is often referred to as being detrimental to battery longevity.
I think the key take home here is the massive variation in degradation irrespective of mileage. You could do 40k miles and have a not uncommon degradation of 15%. It doesn’t neatly follow your line of best fit. It is basically a lucky (or unlucky) dip.
A really informative video which shows the longevity of EVs.
Are you able to compare the smart options once the vehicles go out of warranty?
My understanding is that the Kia’s in the UK might lose access to Kia Connect after 7 years which means that battery pre-conditioning and remote heating would stop as an example.
March 2020 Tesla Model 3 LR with performance boost, just completed 100K miles this month with a degradation of 11%.
So in just under 5 years you have lost 11% of your range, I could be wrong but that sounds like a lot to me.
I think there was some confusion in the LFP M3 2021/22 model years as there was two different battery pack sizes: 55 + 60KW, and these were misplotted giving erroneously high degradation for the 55kw packs.
I ran a 2014 Model S and had warranty HV battery replacements at 83k, 104k, and 114k. Every time, it was the failure of a PCB component, not the cells (still had the same 220 mile range) before PCB failure stopped play. As the warranty was due to expire, I sold the car for £18k as the out of warranty replacement was quoted at £17,500.
The real news for me, always take the bigger battery. 80 % of 77 kwh is enough power for travel. 80 % of 50 kwh is only 40 kwh left. This means charging brake ever 90 - 120 min. With 62 kwh left u kann go 3 to 4 hours without brake. And after 3.5 hours u normally need a break for urself. So u dont lose time because u would have stopped anyway.
I did a 528 mile drive in a 2019 Model 3 SR+ at 83% SoH. Took 11 hours (with some traffic and road works), really fine experience if you're not in a hurry
I think that Hyundai/Kia took a leaf out of the old Ampera and put a massive buffer, the Ampera had a 16kwh with only 10-11kwh useable, My 2020 Hyundai Ioniq has a 40.4kWh lithium-ion polymer battery, with a usable capacity of 38.3kwh, after 88,000 miles last summer I charged up to 249 miles, still reads 100%, winter coldest temp 190 miles. So performing really well and much better than I expected.
Thanks Richard , very useful.
My Peugeot E-Expert van has done 103,000 miles and Car Scanner states 90.1% SOC.
Original Capacity 75Kwh with 68kwh usable is 90.7%. My home charger shows it is still putting in 67kwh to 68kwh charge to 100%.
Not noticed any range drop other than expected weather related drops.
Calculated running savings? Both fuel and maintenance would add up I’m sure
Running costs I’m quids in with home charging and Tesla/Ionity memberships.
Still on the original rear tyres (3mm tread left) which I’ve never had from any vehicle before. Fronts changed at 56k. 3 x services with one pair of front pads (could have kept the old ones as plenty left) plus 1 light bulb!
Just passed its MOT with the tester commenting “it’s in mint condition!”
I think an important factor to consider in this equation would be battery age. I'd be curious to see degradation on a 5 year-old battery with 20.000 miles on it, for example. I think time matters even more than mileage when it comes to batteries.
You are dead right, my EV started showing battery bar loss at 5 years old. All batteries degrade with time and use cycles. All !
I have just made a similar point before reading your text. I think age maybe more important than miiles travelled. I would be interested to know how long in years Elon says the battery should last before getting to 70%. 10 years, 11, 12 maybe. does the degradation fall off a cliff at 10 years? we will know in 3-5 years.
Just reading your message again. My EV is nearly 9 years old but only 41 k miles with 42% battery degradation and 5 out of 12 bars lost. So aged but not many cycles.
I know my EV is not up to date tech for battery environment control but an indication none the less. Modern battery environment tech may slow it down, but nowhere near stop it. With age, a bigger battery does not slow down age related degradation either.
@@FredFox-m9v talking about bars I assume you have a Leaf although I coulkd be wrong. Battery technology and chemistry will get better over time and maybe in 10 or 20 years batteries ev's will be the better option. Ev's are still fairly new in the current configuration, not talking about milk floats of the 50's and 60's, unfortunatley I do remember them, well from the 60's anyway.
"The rule is, jam tomorrow and jam yesterday-but never jam today".
Excellent content. Bravo!
This its completely true. We have in company here in Sweden a lot of different BEV’s which were using every day regularly. Every car it’s test battery health with Aviloo every 3 month. So, old Tesla model S still have 93% in battery after 210.000 km 😳. Tesla model 3 SR LFP 2020 90% 90.000km, Polestar 2 LR FWD 95% 115.000km, KIA EV6 LR RW 99% 220.000 km, Tesla model Y AWD 91%, 76.000km…. etc,etc….
Very interesting- thank you for providing the data.
Observations for me are LFP seems to be the chemistry of choice and Tesla are middling to low on longevity beaten by many other brands.
With the counterpoint that Tesla actually has ranges that top their competitors when new, and will match their competitors when heavily used.
It's like people charging their phone to 80%. Sure, it'll last longer. You'll also never actually be able to use the full range of the car when it's new.
I much prefer Tesla's stance. I'm at 5 years and 150k km, and I'm just now at the point of range where my friend's Kia Niro has been since he bought it. So for the last 5 years, my car went alot further on a single charge.
@@Jeroenneman True, Tesla have always been the efficiency kings.
But with cars that are now cheaper and have bigger batteries for the price, efficiency is less of a problem as the range will be the same.
You only lose out most when public charging, but home charging will only cost a little more.
I have a 2020 Model 3 Performance which has completed 44k. The range has fallen to 200 miles on a full charge, a far cry from the 328 miles promised but never acheived. I have learnt not to believe the estimated range of the battery charge meter. The best method to determine range is by putting in a destination and see what range it gives, and by large it is pretty spot on. Cold weather performance is further erroded to about 150 miles. Have I got a dud or is there an element of looking through rose tinted glasses here??
Good data, In reality a breakdown of A/C & DC charging might also show a big effect on degradation. Certainly shows that batteries are not the issue that we keep being feed by the fudders.
Our own m3p has had a lot of DC but it was still 90% at 100k miles
On leafs with no active cooling, yes. Since then, not really.
So it all came very down to battery temperature management. After this got implemented the stats have become fantastic. Who would have thought, it was like running petrol engine without coolant in the radiator.
Tremendous work. Do you have readings for Cadillac or Hummer? Other GM EVs?
And we know the technology is evolving and it will get even better still.
Great analysis. Thank you
Would be interesting to look at old BMW i3s plenty out there with over 100,000 miles now and on smaller batteries so more charging cycles etc. I know if one smallest battery Rex with over 230,000 miles on the clock original battery and OK range according to the owner. Bjorn Nyland’s tests show good results for the little Beemer - I assume the bigger BMWs do well too . Is there a time factor as well as a use factor on degradation too.? There are lots of older LEAF Zoe and i3 out there, but they wouldn’t fall under your lease car scenario 😊
Hi Richard. I'm looking at buying a used, facelift Mini electric , which has a small battery anyway. 32.8 kwh, but 28 usable.I don't travel very far, but wouldn't want to lose a lot of the range to battery degradation . How are Mini/ BMW looking on your data? My other option is a 58kwh VW id3. At least with the id3, there's enough capacity to offset the degradation. Great video by the way 👏
I have a BYD, 126S1P 400V 60KWhr (useable) LFP blade cell traction battery. There is a further 2KWhr unusable designed to keep the battery 'alive'.
Over the first 18 months of ownership capacity in terms of range, drifted up by about 5%. Its now stabilised and I have seen no change over the last six months.
I only fast charge occassionally, mainly on trips. I limit DC fast charging to between 25% and 85%.
Normal charging is slow using AC. In normal weekly use I slow charge once a week to 100%. Every six months I do a 'long slow charge' from less than 10% to 100% in accordance with BYD's recommendation.
Overall very happy with the vehicle's performance.
Thank you for sharing that data! As a current Tesla owner who has aspirations to become a Taycan owner I’ve been put off by the negativity around the J1.1’s battery. Any chance of Taycan being part of this?
My previous '15 model S 85D had 336k km when I sold it at 6-7% degredation on the original pack. Pretty impressive stuff. My current '17 P100DL has 250k km and 7-8% degredation.
Pretty cool share! Thanks!
Done 123k miles in my Kona. Last OBD reading (within the past month) was 96.6% state of health. Note, I own the car so I've looked after the battery. Only occasionally fully charge, extremely rare I go below 10% and have only DC charged a handful of times. As others have mentioned elsewhere, I assume this is not the actual degradation of the cells. It's more likely some figure arrived at by using up some of the factory buffer.
Cars using LFP currently have smaller batteries than the higher spec versions of the same model that don't use LFP, so will need more charge/discharge cycles to cover the same miles. Examples include MG4, Tesla 3 & Y. It is the number of cycles that is usually judged to cause degradation, together with age.
It'll be interesting to see the figures when Toyota/Lexus get to sufficient numbers and ages, with their 600000km/10/15yr warranties. They have a lot of experience of charging/discharging batteries and were slated for their slow charge speeds and old tech but I have a feeling the slow and steady approach might reap rewards down the line.
I'm thinking of buying a used ev in around 10 years so this is useful information.
Interesting that this information is all gleaned from the vehicle’s (and by extension , the manufacturer’s ) self-reporting. I wonder if there could be some VW-dieselgate reporting happening. We’re completely trusting the integrity of the data the manufacturers are providing to give this whole video. I’m not convinced the lithium technology between manufacturers, the charging/discharge regime or the environmental controls would be wildly different.
My model S is out of warranty was 8 years , unlimited miles however it has been out of warranty since December 2023 but i do know there are two places in the UK who can repair Tesla battery packs and motors and im sure as time goes on there will be more of these kind of repair centres springing up as it can be a lot cheaper than paying for a new or refurbished pack or motor
Another interesting EV video Richard. I see you are wearing a Fitbit type ring, how is the Richard health going. Very well I trust, I want to see a lot more of these videos.
Thanks, hopefully the myth of the battery needing replacing after a few years is fading, along with all the other myths.
Yes there will be an occasional battery failure and and occasional fire, but less than ICE car engine failure and fires.
Oh the haters will keep saying it.
And they'll ignore all the gm v8 engines failing all over the place.
I dont suppose you've any info on Fords please? Thinking of getting a Mach E and wondered how their batteries stood up. Thanks
As with all statistics, the result depends on how the subjects (batteries in this case) are selected. Ideally for accurate data you would need a sample that is not dependent on the owner deciding to get the battery tested.
My 2021 M3P has 161,000 miles on it now. Scan my Tesla says I have 63.5kwh nominal remaining from the original 82.1kwh. 22.7% degradation. Car has been 60+% supercharged through its life in the UK!
Thought it would be better, but maybe the Panasonic battery isn’t as good as the older smaller capacity one?