Hi Simon, you are so right about the reason behind this video. Yes You can learn from looking at Eagle's form. But showing the rest of us mere mortals how to break down the forms and motions of the throw, That is the real value. So yes a very big thank you from the Netherlands.
Simon, thank you for this video. I'm 60 years old, been playing since January 2019 and started as a forehand player (my backhand is atrocious - don't stand to my right or behind me). I've seen almost every forehand video and just could not improve. Then I saw this video and that led me to go watch Eagle's video. I practiced at home and went to the course this weekend (Arizona' parks and courses are still open) and played with my usual group of friends. They were amazed with the difference and so was I. Thank you for doing the comparison video as I learned a bit from that and it led me to Eagle's video. On another subject, when things get back to normal....how about doing another 'Simon Lines' video? I really don't know how you see those weird routes to the basket AND make the throw - but keep it up, you are fun to watch. Seeing the lines you take sometimes also shows that the 'obvious' route may not always be the only route or the best route to take.
I'm getting ready for next season and trying to tune up my forehand, here are the best tips I personally got from this video. Hope they help some others too! 1. Shuffle step to keep hips perpendicular and allow max lower body recruitment 2. Firmly plant front foot without heel striking (heel strike reduces forward momentum) 3. Don't step too far forward, keep a strong athletic stance where back leg stays around 90° at release 4. Stay a bit lower and more bent over than usual with back leg close to the ground 5. Lead with the elbow more during the reach back 6. Keep wrist back and imagine nailing the disc into a wall to help the snap release
Definitely could result in injury. But so could anything if done too much or incorrectly. Luckily sport's science is real and he probably has looked into taking care of himself. Submariner pitchers pitch very similar and probably throw more pitches in 1 game than Eagle does in a week. Warming up is key and so is rest. Pitchers need at least 2 days rest in between performances
@@bioLarzen I believe he works with disc golf strong a lot, so they have probably looked at his form and given him tips on preventing injury. In the Dynamic discs video on sidearm the guy from disc golf strong actually talked about pitch counts and how to prevent injury throwing sidearm.
@@A.J.K87 Possibly - but accidents can always happen when you contort your ligaments like this, even if you have trained for this. Let's hope I'm wrong though.
It's great to see the disc golf community giving credit to each other like you do. It's a compliment to not just your professionalism, but also to your love of the sport and your competition. My hat's off to you!
His feet are closer together and his back knee is almost a straight line to his head. Where as you seem to be lunging forward with the plant foot taking away some of the compact explosion from the hips. Love the work Simon stay safe, and keep it up!
Although I have very limited disc golf experience, I do have a lot of experience in American football as a quarterback and doing the throwing events in track and field. I notice Eagle’s elbow is already snapping through when his arm is still behind his body. I also notice eagle’s upper body stays relatively close to a 90° angle to the ground until just before he releases it while you are diving into the throw a little bit. In track and field, specifically in the shot put and discus events, we could call this “shifting” because you are shifting your weight onto your front leg big time, which can lead to fouling a throw in t&f and I’d imagine an undesirable arm angle in a disc golf sidearm.
Simon, I think I know why Eagle's Forehand is the best. As people have been noticing, his arm is bending in interesting ways, and as you said, gets more pop in his throw, which gives him more distance. I think why Eagle has such a good sidearm, his elbow and shoulder are probably double-jointed, which allows his arm to bend in more ways than we could imagine. So although you could replicate his form, you still won't throw as far as him because of that (sidearm speaking, because you can mash the disc so far). It's a good form too, so love the effort. Keep up the good work! I hope you win a lot in 2020!
2 things I noticed. Eagle really loads up on the back foot in the run up. I think what helps his front foot hit so quick is A) a smaller step and B) the weight transfer from back to front. 2nd thing I noticed was hip engagement it looked like Eagle running up sideways gives him more hip rotation and room to turn from sideways to front. Whereas your hips were slightly shifted. A little angled off front to still allow for hip twist but not as sideways as eagle which gives more turn. P.S. that elbow jazz looks insane. That's probably something only he can do. But it looked like as his elbow was locked sideways he allowed his shoulder to move forward to delay having to finish the throw. When he rotated his hip forward his elbow was in line with it until the very end where I feel most people would begin the motion of the arm forward Eagle moves his shoulder forward first then the elbow behind giving it a slight delay before the whip. Its trippy.
Glad you are staying safe, remember the virus is supposed to last for days or possibly weeks on plastic, metal and glass, so if you decide to play, stay safe and bring sanitizer and don't touch your face. However going out to an empty field and just throwing discs seems perfectly safe if there isn't anyone there, probably a great time to get a LOT of practice throws in. Thanks for all you do Simon, love the content you put out. Happy discing.
Yeah it can, but when exposed to UV it doesn't last near as long as it would inside. Either way, if you're like me and can't putt, then you don't have to worry about dirty baskets
I like your new studio. It looks cool and really like the background. It is hard for us because I want to play disc golf but I can not. It is not that bad because I can do alot of stuff inside to improve and spend time with my family. Thanks for the video and all the great advice. I really need to work on my forehand alot.
Great vid Simon. Love the new setup. Good social distancing, here in east TN they started digging up baskets. Now i just play 24/7 in my backyard. since school is out imma tag you on ig some sick 80-100 footers.
During reach back, I noticed two things: 1) He has more flexion in his arm going back (produced by rotation in the shoulder. 2) His body starts leaning back so there is huge transition of weight from [back to front] through the throw.
Firstly, Simon you are a great gift to disc golf and I thank you from the bottom of my heart. I am an intermediate sidearm player, been throwing since the mid 2000s and my sidearm is the best part of my game. I think you should get another angle from the back of the player to see the twist in the body and the planting of the front foot for a longer drive. Just as you describe stepping the planting foot off-center for BH, the same logic applies with FH to give more torso twist and apply greater torque on the disc. Eagle steps in a pretty straight line for all of his shots and gets incredible distance from his timing alone, but I am pretty sure you would notice a difference there.
Early comment (@2.48, maybe more later) Simon! Look at the core activation! @2:45 and 2:48 respectively, Eagle has his core tight projecting his shoulder forward but staying relatively "tall" upright keeping his arm pulled in, your core is open by comparison and you let your upper body get pulled off center by your disc and arm. Further evidence of this difference is that Eagle almost tips over to the left once he no longer has a disc in his hand to adjust against. Edit: @6:07 part of the reason he gets that longer pull and more forward projection of the right elbow is that core staying solid and tight. If you had a top down view I'm sure you could see Eagles disc changing direction towards him quite a bit just at release just like you are used to seeing with a powerful backhand throw. Edit2: Not sure if your knee pain can be traced to your glutes, I seem to remember hearing powerlifting coaches talk about glute strength for healthy knees. I do remember one of the things I was warned about while training javelinthrow as a teenager was planting my brace flatfooted (we always had to dig our heel in while planting keeping the ball of our foot off the ground initially, I wasn't very good though. ) I noticed Eagle plugged DGS in his video and I would like to add to that: The greater depth he hits in his brace along with the shorter final step is actually an easier position for the core and from doing the DGS workouts myself I know he has the strength and stability for that depth in his glutes and hips. (that brace makes me want to run down to the basement for more oneleg deadlifts with kneehug, glutebridges and splitsquats with pause.)
Disc Golf is actually so good in this time of crisis. As long as you have quick and safe access to some spot and no one is around it's perfectly safe to go out and practice, make a challange for yourself, work on your form etc. Yes, there is argument that if everyone does that, then woods and fields will become crowded but guess what - most people don't go outside very often anyway and they may be complaining but they will stay inside, like they always do ;] Ofc you have to be lucky enough to live in smaller town and close to a spot/woods/fields but for me it's a matter of taking 10 steps out of my house and I'm in totally safe place with no people around me, just thick woods. Maybe I'll finally learn to throw any decent shot :D
I'm over 70 and have talked to several M.D.s specializing in viruses and communicable diseases and was told my immune system is a lot stronger the more I'm OUTSIDE. just don't hug and kiss anybody you see out there
Great set set-up for your new studio! Love your vlogs keep em coming. The forehqnd slomo comparison was superb. You shoul also watch american baseball shortstops and second basemen throwing it is very similar.
Fantastic video! I have been studying glass blowing, and you try your small light under your GBO trophy. Like inside small topless box or a bowl. I do it with paper weights and it looks amazing!
I played competitive disc golf in the 1990's and this type of video analysis of throwing motion is something that was not possible for the average disc golfer, without access to expensive equipment. In 2020, you can do it with some relatively cheap cameras and computer software. Amazing.
Hey Simon, that mini disc golf challenge is fun to watch. In fact, I just ordered a set for myself to enjoy around the house and local parking lots. The game is equally challenging and it keeps the whole social distancing initiative going. Take care of yourself but keep the fun content coming in! :)
So I never "like" videos because I dont want my youtube suggestions narrowing down to specific, defined genres, but I just can't help it with Simon's videos. Such a cool guy making great videos of him just being himself and breaking the game down for all of us. Amazing of-the-course role model.
5:20 The shorter lead step: seems to create better shoulder-over-hip rotation whether backhand or forehand. An idea: the lead leg also pulls the core into position once foot contact is made. Perhaps same working premise as the bicep-- stronger (think arm wrestling) when fist is curled up to shoulder compared to the arm straightened out.
Agree with Birds in Flight, that’s what I saw too! Elbow needs to stay in, keeps core activated and can produce the torque to add the snap for a huge side arm. Hucking an ultimate sidearm to practice helps too!
One thing I know for sure is both Koling and Sexton have that hop as well. Eagle’s got some natural gifts in terms of his long flexible levels of arms lol. Eagle does seem to keep his weight back just a fraction more than Simon.
You did great with your disc golf studio. I liked the break down of the sidearm or forehand throw comparison. I don't have a forehand. I need to practice it more. I grew up playing frisbee catch. I've always thrown backhand. I now have a better idea of what a good forehand looks like. Appreciated! Thumbs Up!
Simon, a few things I noticed. In the frames where you're watching the throw, notice that Eagle's arm and disc are clear, no motion blur. Second, around 12:24 notice that Eagle's back leg is perpendicular to the ground, where your leg is quite angled back. I would think that would make a difference.
Javaman92 Yeah it seems like Eagle is facing more forwards at the end which might help him engage his hips better. Simon did kinda cover this when he mentioned about taking that long last step and trying to shorten it in the future.
I think that comes from the shorter step with the left foot. Look how Eagle's right knee is at a 45 and Simon's is stretched out. Eagle talked about driving off that back foot much like a pitcher. Hard to do with the long last step
I graduated with a minor in sports coaching and something that stands out A LOT in the comparison is the hip activation eagle gets. Simon you should definitely work on yours! :)
Just a thought, like you said in backhand, at the point when your foot plants you want to be all the way in your reach back. When your foot plants for forehand, you are still going backwards. So you are doing everything with just top half of your body. Eagle is stopped or moving forward, so his legs and core are anchoring everything going forward, so he can out everything into it, systematically like you do your backhand
Sweet comparison! It seemed to be that Eagle's hips were way more sideways giving him a much bigger hip rotation when he finally came through. Love that you're always working on your game and can't wait to see your results from making some of the minor adjustments you noted as you watched it. Let us know if anything new clicked :) Thanks for all the great content and stay safe!
Yeah there’s a phenomenon with baseball players where we achieve more than 180 degrees for External rotation, which we can’t do expect for during the throwing motion. In order for our arms to maintain the capabilities of reach the range of motion to throw our bones, such as the glenoid and Acromion of the shoulder blade, actually shift and remodel to allow that motion. Just like we can shift teeth with braces the repetitive throwing motion remodels our shoulder joint.
Student physical therapist here Simon. I know it looks like something is happening at Eagle's elbow, but it's actually his shoulder that's allowing this position at the elbow to happen. It looks like he has incredible amounts of what is called external rotation at his shoulder joint. This is very similar to baseball pitchers actually. If you look at elite pitchers when their arm is overhead they are going through the same very extreme external rotation ROM (Google "pitcher external rotation" and you will see). This allows them to generate waaaay more force on their throws then someone with less ROM in this direction on average because the muscles that perform the opposite action (internal rotators) have basically "stretched" more (kind of like a rubber band being pulled farther) and it results in more force production. If you want to be able to match Eagle's technique it might be wise to try to attempt to increase your external rotation at your shoulder through mobility and strengthening drills which if you have a strength coach/PT you work with regularly they would have no problem helping you or giving you some stuff to do.
You are right about size of the steps. Eagle gets way more rotation out of his hips after planting and Simon starts to rotate open before planting. Also, one bigger difference, Eagle's arm is synced to his right/off leg (deweighting) and Simon's throw is synced to his plant heel hitting the ground. Eagle has way more active left side movement, Simon's right leg just hangs in there dragging.
Keep up the good videos Simon. People watch your vlogs because they like you the person, not only the content you produce. If you feel up to it, I think most of us, myself included, will tune into any video you make regardless of topic. I personally think a live Q & A would be fun.
If you look at eagle's hips they are pointed 90 deg from his plant location. Simon's are pointed about 45deg from his plant location. That's a lot of room for rotation especially since they are of similar stature. Thanks Simon for the pro tips on breaking down form that will help a lot of people
In sweden we still playing comps ... stacked 18 hole, 4 people per group 😅 But as PDGA wont allow us its not sanctioned anymore so we have to take the money that would have went to PDGA and add it to the pricepool!
About the elbow I think its more that you have your camera more infront then Eagle. If you watch the back leg extension it looks like the camera is like 0.5-1m more forward so that weird frame with the elbow is blocked by your body :)
Love the analysis, and the new studio. There's one thing you didn't mention: at the end of the reach back, Eagle's disc is pointing backwards, elbow down. Yours is still pointing to the camera.
Eagles footwork is allowing him to plant quicker and turn his hips sooner creating more twist and pent up energy. You may also notice the body position during acceleration. He starts early and propels his body forward while you are still digging down to generate power. Much love for a fellow Simon. This video will help me as well. I wish you the best.
To me looks like eagle puts more weight on his back foot you can see hes leaning back and when he plants front foot he brings all that weight forward. You seem to be more in a straight position so there is not as much weight shift. Just my two cents
I as just about to comment the same exact thing. Eagle keeps so much more weight on his back foot, and then propels all of it forward, and it looks like (guessing) he's using that weight transfer to drive his elbow even further ahead of the disc, getting that whip closer to the tip.
Great content simon👍 who drew that picture of you? It looks awesome! I picked up my first disc golf disc 5 months ago and my life's goal is to play along side you man!. One day!
I think Eagle is what is called "double jointed". That would explain the elbow position that looks a bit unnatural. My nephew and niece can put their arms in crazy looking positions.
I noticed two thing. Simon's last step is much longer, which seems to lock he's hips. Eagle is able to engage the hips more due to shorter last step. Eagle also drops he's elbow much sooner. Don't know if it makes any difference, but it is noticeable. Great video!
Great video Simon. I noticed in your run up your back half kinda dips down and back a bit vs Eagle stays tall and loaded, maybe cuz of the shuffle step. That allows for better weight transfer falling forward at target. Whereas if ur back half is already low during walk up, your arm will finish coming up and rolling over a bit earlier. Stay tall and strong on your back half.
This makes me feel so much better about my run up on side arm. i was watching my side arm form and everythingi saw online was telling me to cross my leg like simon but i always did more of a scoot like eagle does here my legs never really cross each other
I think both are right, as the scoot is older style of forehand but it is in the how wide the stance is in the throw as well as how you plant the front foot having that set ready for throwing before you have the hand/disc past the front of the body. My dad has used that scoot style footwork with a regular catch disc since the late 1960's and in the 1970's and will do the forehand even with the big catch disc like a ultimate disc or a Pro/Super Pro more often then do the backhand. The arm, wrist, and hand he does it different by throwing more like Simon with the slight tuck in during the throw but using a wrist that is straight until the snap forward right before he throws the disc. However my dad in the older less bent posture. The posture is more like throwing a fastball, slider, or fastball slider then a modern stance that looks like a curveball. I can't do a side arm. I do using a US disc a backhand shot that is for left fade. the two I use for this is a Dragon that fades hard to the right if I overpower the disc easy to do as the disc is only 150-149 grams and the Archer that flies to the left naturally at the end.
I know I'm super late and only about a year into playing the sport so what do I know, but I'll give some insight. After watching this I recorded my forehand form and it is eerily similar to Eagle's (five years of playing tennis probably helped with form and speed for me at least). The biggest thing that I saw was your reach back. I know it doesn't look like, but his arm is engaged way behind his body and yours is not as far back and closer to your body. Your arm starts to move before his but he still catches up to you. My goal when throwing a forehand far is trying to move the disc as far back and as far forward as possible and as fast as possible and I fully believe that's the key.
Interested in that Disc of the Day. It looks amazing. I have an intermediate to advance arm speed. So 325 to 350 feet of comfortable distance. So my question would be if you do a disc review could you do your arm speed and then a slower arm speed so I could stop fantasizing about a faster arm speed. That I clearly don’t have. Thanks for the vlog. Love having something to watch during the lockdown.
In Arlington MA they have put 2x4s on the basketball hoops! **Two things I noticed are 1) how much left arm action Eagle still has going out left as he starts his rotation and 2) how much backward the angle of his shoulderline is pointed as he starts his forward flick motion. These two things, combined with his fluid transition from high scoot to low crouch, seem to help to convert so much of his runup (kinetic) and standing (potential) energy to the wrist. Yes, his elbow should dislocate, but this is apparently how the wing works! Another Simon
Yo Your new setup is sick! mad props Mr. Lizotte!! Can't wait for this CoViD-19 thing to die down and hope you make it over to JPN when you can! Will b waitin'!
Eagle’s shoulders look square to his target point, right as the explosion point. I think that’s a key. His follow through is also longer, which tells me he does not just release the disc and finish the throw. What I’ve learned from 95% of good throws is that the disc isn’t necessarily completely thrown when it leaves the hand. There’s something missing in the reach back positioning of your arm and how you’re holding the disc at that point as well that needs adjustment. I’ll look at the video again to determine what the difference is.
I could mistaken but I think it was GG who I heard say "If u have a big backhand u also have a big sidearm u just have to work at it and develop it" Cool vid SL!👍
Simon at 6:28, it looks like eagles hips are really firing hard from facing away to facing toward the target whereas yours at 6:54 are more just turning casually toward the target. I believe he generates a lot of power from the lower body through rotation, not just arm motion (another great example is watching Chris Clemons with his forehand).
That was really interesting. You can definitely tell from top to bottom how much power he generated. His hips are already turned before yours. Eagle generates so much power with his hip and step....
I think the difference in power is down to one thing: Eagle's plant foot holds strong like a rock and stops his forward momentum completely, while yours gives in a little and you end up losing some power from the weight shift. You can see it clearly when you compare your plant foots in that frame-by-frame shot. Your knee never stops going over the foot but Eagle's stays behind the shin's vertical line, because he is actively pushing back against the ground with his plant foot to maximize the energy from the weight shift.
Hi Simon, thanks for your idea and effort to do this comparison. You say that your plant foot is set later than Eagle's. What is your point of reference from where you evaluate about "later" or "earlier"? If a well-chosen point of reference is not been defined (eg. point of time or point of a specific action/motion) any comparison may become quite vague. Such a point of reference should also be independent of a dictinctive given differences between the players (e.g. height, length of legs/arms), That being said, possibly the moment when the plant foot gets set might be the right point of reference. Starting from there the comparison of lower and upper body work may offer more insights into the detailed differences between your and Eagle's motions (before and after the plant feet are set).
Being one of the best in the sport, it’s awesome to see how humble Simon still is
Absolutely.
This channel is just making him my favorite even more.
Hi Simon, you are so right about the reason behind this video. Yes You can learn from looking at Eagle's form.
But showing the rest of us mere mortals how to break down the forms and motions of the throw, That is the real value.
So yes a very big thank you from the Netherlands.
Well said!
Simon, thank you for this video. I'm 60 years old, been playing since January 2019 and started as a forehand player (my backhand is atrocious - don't stand to my right or behind me). I've seen almost every forehand video and just could not improve. Then I saw this video and that led me to go watch Eagle's video. I practiced at home and went to the course this weekend (Arizona' parks and courses are still open) and played with my usual group of friends. They were amazed with the difference and so was I. Thank you for doing the comparison video as I learned a bit from that and it led me to Eagle's video. On another subject, when things get back to normal....how about doing another 'Simon Lines' video? I really don't know how you see those weird routes to the basket AND make the throw - but keep it up, you are fun to watch. Seeing the lines you take sometimes also shows that the 'obvious' route may not always be the only route or the best route to take.
I'm getting ready for next season and trying to tune up my forehand, here are the best tips I personally got from this video. Hope they help some others too!
1. Shuffle step to keep hips perpendicular and allow max lower body recruitment
2. Firmly plant front foot without heel striking (heel strike reduces forward momentum)
3. Don't step too far forward, keep a strong athletic stance where back leg stays around 90° at release
4. Stay a bit lower and more bent over than usual with back leg close to the ground
5. Lead with the elbow more during the reach back
6. Keep wrist back and imagine nailing the disc into a wall to help the snap release
Love the new look to the studio Simon and thanks for being a good, smart, general all round awesome human being!
You’re hands down my favorite Pro
Pause at 6:06. It looks like his arm is going to SNAP. It's crazy how much power is locked in that position.
Let's hope all that energy will never be spent on tearing that elbow ligament...
Definitely could result in injury. But so could anything if done too much or incorrectly. Luckily sport's science is real and he probably has looked into taking care of himself.
Submariner pitchers pitch very similar and probably throw more pitches in 1 game than Eagle does in a week. Warming up is key and so is rest. Pitchers need at least 2 days rest in between performances
@@stephenrosenthal5252 Definitely. Eagle surely knows what he's doing :)
@@bioLarzen I believe he works with disc golf strong a lot, so they have probably looked at his form and given him tips on preventing injury. In the Dynamic discs video on sidearm the guy from disc golf strong actually talked about pitch counts and how to prevent injury throwing sidearm.
@@A.J.K87 Possibly - but accidents can always happen when you contort your ligaments like this, even if you have trained for this. Let's hope I'm wrong though.
It's great to see the disc golf community giving credit to each other like you do. It's a compliment to not just your professionalism, but also to your love of the sport and your competition. My hat's off to you!
His feet are closer together and his back knee is almost a straight line to his head. Where as you seem to be lunging forward with the plant foot taking away some of the compact explosion from the hips. Love the work Simon stay safe, and keep it up!
Cody Bailey in javelin we call it a block....eagle hits an amazing block
Although I have very limited disc golf experience, I do have a lot of experience in American football as a quarterback and doing the throwing events in track and field. I notice Eagle’s elbow is already snapping through when his arm is still behind his body. I also notice eagle’s upper body stays relatively close to a 90° angle to the ground until just before he releases it while you are diving into the throw a little bit. In track and field, specifically in the shot put and discus events, we could call this “shifting” because you are shifting your weight onto your front leg big time, which can lead to fouling a throw in t&f and I’d imagine an undesirable arm angle in a disc golf sidearm.
Simon, I think I know why Eagle's Forehand is the best. As people have been noticing, his arm is bending in interesting ways, and as you said, gets more pop in his throw, which gives him more distance. I think why Eagle has such a good sidearm, his elbow and shoulder are probably double-jointed, which allows his arm to bend in more ways than we could imagine. So although you could replicate his form, you still won't throw as far as him because of that (sidearm speaking, because you can mash the disc so far). It's a good form too, so love the effort. Keep up the good work! I hope you win a lot in 2020!
THANK YOU for encouraging people to stay home right now. It means a lot coming from someone like you. And congrats on 50k!!
Wow, Probably one of the best compare videos I have seen.
He’s elbow is dropping much quicker than yours in the reach back. At least it looks that way to me.
look forward to seeing your follow-up on this one. Always fun to watch and cool comparison - thanks!
2 things I noticed. Eagle really loads up on the back foot in the run up. I think what helps his front foot hit so quick is A) a smaller step and B) the weight transfer from back to front. 2nd thing I noticed was hip engagement it looked like Eagle running up sideways gives him more hip rotation and room to turn from sideways to front. Whereas your hips were slightly shifted. A little angled off front to still allow for hip twist but not as sideways as eagle which gives more turn.
P.S. that elbow jazz looks insane. That's probably something only he can do. But it looked like as his elbow was locked sideways he allowed his shoulder to move forward to delay having to finish the throw. When he rotated his hip forward his elbow was in line with it until the very end where I feel most people would begin the motion of the arm forward Eagle moves his shoulder forward first then the elbow behind giving it a slight delay before the whip. Its trippy.
I think he had that one professor from Harry Potter remove his bones in that arm bro?
Haha nice
That was professor Lockhart lol
Reggie Steward Gilderoy Lockhart to be exact
Glad you are staying safe, remember the virus is supposed to last for days or possibly weeks on plastic, metal and glass, so if you decide to play, stay safe and bring sanitizer and don't touch your face. However going out to an empty field and just throwing discs seems perfectly safe if there isn't anyone there, probably a great time to get a LOT of practice throws in. Thanks for all you do Simon, love the content you put out. Happy discing.
Yeah it can, but when exposed to UV it doesn't last near as long as it would inside. Either way, if you're like me and can't putt, then you don't have to worry about dirty baskets
I like your new studio. It looks cool and really like the background. It is hard for us because I want to play disc golf but I can not. It is not that bad because I can do alot of stuff inside to improve and spend time with my family. Thanks for the video and all the great advice. I really need to work on my forehand alot.
Great vid Simon. Love the new setup. Good social distancing, here in east TN they started digging up baskets. Now i just play 24/7 in my backyard. since school is out imma tag you on ig some sick 80-100 footers.
During reach back, I noticed two things: 1) He has more flexion in his arm going back (produced by rotation in the shoulder. 2) His body starts leaning back so there is huge transition of weight from [back to front] through the throw.
I think the torso lean is a key aspect Simon didn't mention. Simon, if you're reading this, try to add that to your form too!
@@agerlock917 Agreed. It's similar to pitchers in baseball during their windup.
Firstly, Simon you are a great gift to disc golf and I thank you from the bottom of my heart. I am an intermediate sidearm player, been throwing since the mid 2000s and my sidearm is the best part of my game. I think you should get another angle from the back of the player to see the twist in the body and the planting of the front foot for a longer drive. Just as you describe stepping the planting foot off-center for BH, the same logic applies with FH to give more torso twist and apply greater torque on the disc. Eagle steps in a pretty straight line for all of his shots and gets incredible distance from his timing alone, but I am pretty sure you would notice a difference there.
Early comment (@2.48, maybe more later) Simon! Look at the core activation! @2:45 and 2:48 respectively, Eagle has his core tight projecting his shoulder forward but staying relatively "tall" upright keeping his arm pulled in, your core is open by comparison and you let your upper body get pulled off center by your disc and arm. Further evidence of this difference is that Eagle almost tips over to the left once he no longer has a disc in his hand to adjust against.
Edit: @6:07 part of the reason he gets that longer pull and more forward projection of the right elbow is that core staying solid and tight. If you had a top down view I'm sure you could see Eagles disc changing direction towards him quite a bit just at release just like you are used to seeing with a powerful backhand throw.
Edit2: Not sure if your knee pain can be traced to your glutes, I seem to remember hearing powerlifting coaches talk about glute strength for healthy knees. I do remember one of the things I was warned about while training javelinthrow as a teenager was planting my brace flatfooted (we always had to dig our heel in while planting keeping the ball of our foot off the ground initially, I wasn't very good though. ) I noticed Eagle plugged DGS in his video and I would like to add to that: The greater depth he hits in his brace along with the shorter final step is actually an easier position for the core and from doing the DGS workouts myself I know he has the strength and stability for that depth in his glutes and hips. (that brace makes me want to run down to the basement for more oneleg deadlifts with kneehug, glutebridges and splitsquats with pause.)
Disc Golf is actually so good in this time of crisis. As long as you have quick and safe access to some spot and no one is around it's perfectly safe to go out and practice, make a challange for yourself, work on your form etc. Yes, there is argument that if everyone does that, then woods and fields will become crowded but guess what - most people don't go outside very often anyway and they may be complaining but they will stay inside, like they always do ;] Ofc you have to be lucky enough to live in smaller town and close to a spot/woods/fields but for me it's a matter of taking 10 steps out of my house and I'm in totally safe place with no people around me, just thick woods. Maybe I'll finally learn to throw any decent shot :D
I'm over 70 and have talked to several M.D.s specializing in viruses and communicable diseases and was told my immune system is a lot stronger the more I'm OUTSIDE. just don't hug and kiss anybody you see out there
Awesome studio setup. Love the fiber optic disc rack!
interesting analysis on your part. Good job on studio set up . Looking good.
Really liked the side by side video! Thank you for making it.
So down to earth and humble. Simon is the Best !!! Peace !!
Great set set-up for your new studio! Love your vlogs keep em coming. The forehqnd slomo comparison was superb. You shoul also watch american baseball shortstops and second basemen throwing it is very similar.
Simon's attitude is one of the best there is. I'm a fan for life now.
Fantastic video! I have been studying glass blowing, and you try your small light under your GBO trophy. Like inside small topless box or a bowl. I do it with paper weights and it looks amazing!
I played competitive disc golf in the 1990's and this type of video analysis of throwing motion is something that was not possible for the average disc golfer, without access to expensive equipment. In 2020, you can do it with some relatively cheap cameras and computer software. Amazing.
Hey Simon, that mini disc golf challenge is fun to watch. In fact, I just ordered a set for myself to enjoy around the house and local parking lots. The game is equally challenging and it keeps the whole social distancing initiative going. Take care of yourself but keep the fun content coming in! :)
Love the studio simon. Good work buddy.
I need help on my sidearm also. I look forward to using the same things you work on in the future.
So I never "like" videos because I dont want my youtube suggestions narrowing down to specific, defined genres, but I just can't help it with Simon's videos. Such a cool guy making great videos of him just being himself and breaking the game down for all of us. Amazing of-the-course role model.
Thanks for this, Simon. Thanks for following good social distancing and still giving us good teaching from your own learning!
5:20 The shorter lead step: seems to create better shoulder-over-hip rotation whether backhand or forehand. An idea: the lead leg also pulls the core into position once foot contact is made. Perhaps same working premise as the bicep-- stronger (think arm wrestling) when fist is curled up to shoulder compared to the arm straightened out.
Agree with Birds in Flight, that’s what I saw too! Elbow needs to stay in, keeps core activated and can produce the torque to add the snap for a huge side arm. Hucking an ultimate sidearm to practice helps too!
Would be cool to see Nate Sexton's forehand form side by side with you and Eagle. He might not have Eagle distance but man is he smooth.
Both of Big-Sexy have good forehands.
One thing I know for sure is both Koling and Sexton have that hop as well. Eagle’s got some natural gifts in terms of his long flexible levels of arms lol. Eagle does seem to keep his weight back just a fraction more than Simon.
Ok so your throw isn't equal to Eagles. But your making vlogs during this rough period. I say thank you very much Simon. Your a rock star
That editing was too cool, great recording, great blog!
You did great with your disc golf studio. I liked the break down of the sidearm or forehand throw comparison. I don't have a forehand. I need to practice it more. I grew up playing frisbee catch. I've always thrown backhand. I now have a better idea of what a good forehand looks like. Appreciated! Thumbs Up!
Keep up the good work Simon. Super usefull analyses. Stay humble as you are. Really increased my respect for you.
“I don’t know when or how he developed this extra little..... Damn, look at his right arm”
😂😂😂
Simon, a few things I noticed. In the frames where you're watching the throw, notice that Eagle's arm and disc are clear, no motion blur.
Second, around 12:24 notice that Eagle's back leg is perpendicular to the ground, where your leg is quite angled back. I would think that would make a difference.
Javaman92 Yeah it seems like Eagle is facing more forwards at the end which might help him engage his hips better. Simon did kinda cover this when he mentioned about taking that long last step and trying to shorten it in the future.
Looks like eagle throws his hips into the throw a little more than Simon
I think that comes from the shorter step with the left foot. Look how Eagle's right knee is at a 45 and Simon's is stretched out. Eagle talked about driving off that back foot much like a pitcher. Hard to do with the long last step
Looks like he keeps his elbow closer to his body and his reach back is more vertical
New studio is dope man. Hope you get back to disc golf soon but health and safety first
I graduated with a minor in sports coaching and something that stands out A LOT in the comparison is the hip activation eagle gets. Simon you should definitely work on yours! :)
I've got the same lights for my disc rack!
Cool lights! Can you drop a link in the comments for them?
Studio looks great! Thanks for the great video
Just a thought, like you said in backhand, at the point when your foot plants you want to be all the way in your reach back.
When your foot plants for forehand, you are still going backwards. So you are doing everything with just top half of your body. Eagle is stopped or moving forward, so his legs and core are anchoring everything going forward, so he can out everything into it, systematically like you do your backhand
I really like the analysis videos! Keep em coming!
Love your setup SIMON!!!!!
i wish your 360 intro was longer! its such a smooth animation but its so short! just even havign Lizotte last for longer
Sweet comparison! It seemed to be that Eagle's hips were way more sideways giving him a much bigger hip rotation when he finally came through. Love that you're always working on your game and can't wait to see your results from making some of the minor adjustments you noted as you watched it. Let us know if anything new clicked :) Thanks for all the great content and stay safe!
Eagle's arm looks like dislocates split second and then pops back in place on the snap.... That's insane....truly awesome
as someone who's played a lot of baseball and had tendinitis, looking at eagle's elbow is... interesting
Yeah that's not gonna last long is it..
He's stretched it out over time, but yeah it might get hurt sometime in a couple years lmao
Yeah there’s a phenomenon with baseball players where we achieve more than 180 degrees for External rotation, which we can’t do expect for during the throwing motion. In order for our arms to maintain the capabilities of reach the range of motion to throw our bones, such as the glenoid and Acromion of the shoulder blade, actually shift and remodel to allow that motion. Just like we can shift teeth with braces the repetitive throwing motion remodels our shoulder joint.
Agree but baseball players throw more reps and put way more wear on their arms, especially pitchers and infielders. He should be OK....hopefully.
Hi, I'm from the future. In the European Open, Eagle did not throw a single forehand...
It's so easy to be too prideful to accept that you can improve. Super awesome of Simon to do this video.
Student physical therapist here Simon. I know it looks like something is happening at Eagle's elbow, but it's actually his shoulder that's allowing this position at the elbow to happen. It looks like he has incredible amounts of what is called external rotation at his shoulder joint. This is very similar to baseball pitchers actually. If you look at elite pitchers when their arm is overhead they are going through the same very extreme external rotation ROM (Google "pitcher external rotation" and you will see). This allows them to generate waaaay more force on their throws then someone with less ROM in this direction on average because the muscles that perform the opposite action (internal rotators) have basically "stretched" more (kind of like a rubber band being pulled farther) and it results in more force production. If you want to be able to match Eagle's technique it might be wise to try to attempt to increase your external rotation at your shoulder through mobility and strengthening drills which if you have a strength coach/PT you work with regularly they would have no problem helping you or giving you some stuff to do.
New set up has me jelly. What a set up man!!! Keep pushing forward. I’m grabbing my basket from hole to hole like a champ would!!!
You’re crushing it with these videos. Thanks Simon!
You are right about size of the steps.
Eagle gets way more rotation out of his hips after planting and Simon starts to rotate open before planting. Also, one bigger difference, Eagle's arm is synced to his right/off leg (deweighting) and Simon's throw is synced to his plant heel hitting the ground. Eagle has way more active left side movement, Simon's right leg just hangs in there dragging.
Eagle is definitely double jointed....pretty sweet advantage.
Love the studio Simon. Looks awesome
Keep up the good videos Simon. People watch your vlogs because they like you the person, not only the content you produce. If you feel up to it, I think most of us, myself included, will tune into any video you make regardless of topic. I personally think a live Q & A would be fun.
The new room setup is awesome!!!
If you look at eagle's hips they are pointed 90 deg from his plant location. Simon's are pointed about 45deg from his plant location. That's a lot of room for rotation especially since they are of similar stature.
Thanks Simon for the pro tips on breaking down form that will help a lot of people
In sweden we still playing comps ... stacked 18 hole, 4 people per group 😅 But as PDGA wont allow us its not sanctioned anymore so we have to take the money that would have went to PDGA and add it to the pricepool!
About the elbow I think its more that you have your camera more infront then Eagle. If you watch the back leg extension it looks like the camera is like 0.5-1m more forward so that weird frame with the elbow is blocked by your body :)
Love the analysis, and the new studio. There's one thing you didn't mention: at the end of the reach back, Eagle's disc is pointing backwards, elbow down. Yours is still pointing to the camera.
Nice studio man! Look forward to more content!👍😁
Eagles footwork is allowing him to plant quicker and turn his hips sooner creating more twist and pent up energy. You may also notice the body position during acceleration. He starts early and propels his body forward while you are still digging down to generate power. Much love for a fellow Simon. This video will help me as well. I wish you the best.
To me looks like eagle puts more weight on his back foot you can see hes leaning back and when he plants front foot he brings all that weight forward. You seem to be more in a straight position so there is not as much weight shift. Just my two cents
Completely agree. He also starts with way more flex in his shoulder.
I as just about to comment the same exact thing. Eagle keeps so much more weight on his back foot, and then propels all of it forward, and it looks like (guessing) he's using that weight transfer to drive his elbow even further ahead of the disc, getting that whip closer to the tip.
Love the new studio! Perhaps add more lighting so we can make out the disc if the day! Keep up the good work and the amazing videos!
I would love to throw like either one of you! Love the videos and the new set! Color lights are cool! Nicely done ✅🥏
Great content simon👍 who drew that picture of you? It looks awesome! I picked up my first disc golf disc 5 months ago and my life's goal is to play along side you man!. One day!
I think Eagle is what is called "double jointed". That would explain the elbow position that looks a bit unnatural. My nephew and niece can put their arms in crazy looking positions.
Great content Simon. You have a big fan here in Madeira Island :)
I noticed two thing. Simon's last step is much longer, which seems to lock he's hips. Eagle is able to engage the hips more due to shorter last step. Eagle also drops he's elbow much sooner. Don't know if it makes any difference, but it is noticeable. Great video!
excellent video. I learned so much from this. Thanks man
Love the studio set up man!
Love your videos Simon!
Great video Simon. I noticed in your run up your back half kinda dips down and back a bit vs Eagle stays tall and loaded, maybe cuz of the shuffle step. That allows for better weight transfer falling forward at target. Whereas if ur back half is already low during walk up, your arm will finish coming up and rolling over a bit earlier. Stay tall and strong on your back half.
This makes me feel so much better about my run up on side arm. i was watching my side arm form and everythingi saw online was telling me to cross my leg like simon but i always did more of a scoot like eagle does here my legs never really cross each other
I think both are right, as the scoot is older style of forehand but it is in the how wide the stance is in the throw as well as how you plant the front foot having that set ready for throwing before you have the hand/disc past the front of the body. My dad has used that scoot style footwork with a regular catch disc since the late 1960's and in the 1970's and will do the forehand even with the big catch disc like a ultimate disc or a Pro/Super Pro more often then do the backhand. The arm, wrist, and hand he does it different by throwing more like Simon with the slight tuck in during the throw but using a wrist that is straight until the snap forward right before he throws the disc. However my dad in the older less bent posture. The posture is more like throwing a fastball, slider, or fastball slider then a modern stance that looks like a curveball.
I can't do a side arm. I do using a US disc a backhand shot that is for left fade. the two I use for this is a Dragon that fades hard to the right if I overpower the disc easy to do as the disc is only 150-149 grams and the Archer that flies to the left naturally at the end.
I know I'm super late and only about a year into playing the sport so what do I know, but I'll give some insight. After watching this I recorded my forehand form and it is eerily similar to Eagle's (five years of playing tennis probably helped with form and speed for me at least). The biggest thing that I saw was your reach back. I know it doesn't look like, but his arm is engaged way behind his body and yours is not as far back and closer to your body. Your arm starts to move before his but he still catches up to you. My goal when throwing a forehand far is trying to move the disc as far back and as far forward as possible and as fast as possible and I fully believe that's the key.
Interested in that Disc of the Day. It looks amazing. I have an intermediate to advance arm speed. So 325 to 350 feet of comfortable distance. So my question would be if you do a disc review could you do your arm speed and then a slower arm speed so I could stop fantasizing about a faster arm speed. That I clearly don’t have. Thanks for the vlog. Love having something to watch during the lockdown.
Cool looking studio you have😀 i have Been thinking to build also some Rooma for disc golf stuff, but i Will Be using Philips hue lighst that i have😀
In Arlington MA they have put 2x4s on the basketball hoops! **Two things I noticed are 1) how much left arm action Eagle still has going out left as he starts his rotation and 2) how much backward the angle of his shoulderline is pointed as he starts his forward flick motion. These two things, combined with his fluid transition from high scoot to low crouch, seem to help to convert so much of his runup (kinetic) and standing (potential) energy to the wrist. Yes, his elbow should dislocate, but this is apparently how the wing works! Another Simon
Yo Your new setup is sick! mad props Mr. Lizotte!! Can't wait for this CoViD-19 thing to die down and hope you make it over to JPN when you can! Will b waitin'!
Eagle’s shoulders look square to his target point, right as the explosion point. I think that’s a key. His follow through is also longer, which tells me he does not just release the disc and finish the throw. What I’ve learned from 95% of good throws is that the disc isn’t necessarily completely thrown when it leaves the hand. There’s something missing in the reach back positioning of your arm and how you’re holding the disc at that point as well that needs adjustment. I’ll look at the video again to determine what the difference is.
Eagle really keeps that wrist fully cocked back until the end. Unloading the wrist as the final motion is the key I think.
I could mistaken but I think it was GG who I heard say "If u have a big backhand u also have a big sidearm u just have to work at it and develop it" Cool vid SL!👍
Simon at 6:28, it looks like eagles hips are really firing hard from facing away to facing toward the target whereas yours at 6:54 are more just turning casually toward the target. I believe he generates a lot of power from the lower body through rotation, not just arm motion (another great example is watching Chris Clemons with his forehand).
That was really interesting. You can definitely tell from top to bottom how much power he generated. His hips are already turned before yours. Eagle generates so much power with his hip and step....
I think the difference in power is down to one thing: Eagle's plant foot holds strong like a rock and stops his forward momentum completely, while yours gives in a little and you end up losing some power from the weight shift. You can see it clearly when you compare your plant foots in that frame-by-frame shot. Your knee never stops going over the foot but Eagle's stays behind the shin's vertical line, because he is actively pushing back against the ground with his plant foot to maximize the energy from the weight shift.
Love the new studio Simon!
Hi Simon, thanks for your idea and effort to do this comparison. You say that your plant foot is set later than Eagle's. What is your point of reference from where you evaluate about "later" or "earlier"? If a well-chosen point of reference is not been defined (eg. point of time or point of a specific action/motion) any comparison may become quite vague. Such a point of reference should also be independent of a dictinctive given differences between the players (e.g. height, length of legs/arms), That being said, possibly the moment when the plant foot gets set might be the right point of reference. Starting from there the comparison of lower and upper body work may offer more insights into the detailed differences between your and Eagle's motions (before and after the plant feet are set).
That home set up is so slick!
I needed this man. Good vid
At 5:15 eagle has his wrist way more cocked back.
Appreciate the content buddy. Big props n huge shoutout to the Crush Boys.💪🏽🤙🏽🥏⛓