James White and Douglas Wilson discuss the Federal Vision controversy in the first episode of the Sweater Vest Dialogues. This video is presented by Canon Press.
So it the anti Christ marches for saving babies or some issue you can united you will march with him? Same with Hitler? The devil? The temptating snake? How about when the devil was tempting Jesus? Should you united with him if ask for your hand to overcome world hunger? Or jump off this tower to show your support to stop certain evil in the world? Witchcraft? Culak clan? Ceasar? Bloody Mary? You can happily march with all of them and unite under one common vision? Even though you disagree??? The Anti Christ perform miracles to help the poor and needy and ask the church to join in worship that God will bless the miracles? Or open up so the church can help the people who are healed to be ministered? Is that it???? Doug is very charismatic in his thinking as they also say like with Rick warren. We stand with his purpose vision but we dont agree with everything he says. He still has a lot of good things and we go to the same conference uniting together. And if you do that then what the point in discerment we just join together under the banner of uniting for the common good. Mormons, stanism, Nazi, Islam all unit under the common good. Or if Christian then mormon, Oneness, Catholic, NAR all uniting to stop abortion for example. Is this what its been suggested????? Now with the fundamentalist issue about you cant read outside your camp... I am with Dr James that you should BUT! The Charismatic are doing exactly that reading outside their camp and learning spiritual and look what is happening to them with the NAR and Bethel and Hillsong and all the others in between. They scold you about association and say your just being too fundamental and you need to broaden your horizon and learn! Now lets go to the wokeness happening in the current media... So should Christian watch barbie for entertainment and for edification to learn? Cause if your watching it you be affected whether your just watching it to critique. There is a high risk you can be affected. Now how about weaker Christians? Is this a green light too for them? To tell them just go watch barbie even though its has a hidden woke message? Just watch it cause if you do you can be more informed? In doing so you help these weak Christian see that wokness is nothing bad. Even though you told them becareful they go see it and be sold to a hidden woke message. So there are real big big issues on this that i hope this can be address! I am so worried and confused why Dr James and Doug would want this. After all Dr James is shouting out to fight for truth and is fundamental. This very act will undo them both as they might be impervious to the treachery in woke teachings. But not the avg Christian who are told forgot association just join them if there is common cause. Again this is how the Charismatic has become the seeker sensitive church. Cause association was seen as being too fundamental and as Bill Johnson states that we need to break free! "For decades the Church has been guilty of creating doctrine to justify their lack of power..."
I've never heard Wilson say anything heretical. I've heard many reformed people speak negatively about him for what i believe were misunderstandings. It's a shame this happened. I think most of them never took the time to really get to the bottom of things, and were too quick to jump on the judgmental bandwagon. They are Berean in theory, but not in practice. Wilson is a good man.
He uses a dialectic theology another words he is a walking contradiction another words this theology they speak out both sides of their mouths it's their network marketing to get into homes and churches and governments
Lol. They called each other the morning before to synchronize! James said, I'm doin the Coogí; Doug said, I'm doin the Dougy -this is what we got ~gotta Love i✝ And no, this is not the new Reformed look... Although, if they threw their bow ties on!!)
As one might expect, allowing Pastor Wilson to explain his position clears away a ton of the smoke and shade thrown about by his opponents. Great conversation, gentlemen.
The things he says in this conversation contradict what he has said in his books. The things he says in this conversation do not reveal the specific teachings of the Federal Vision. Doug Wilson changes the meaning of words so it sounds like he's saying what the Westminster Confession teaches. When he says "Faith", he means "works" and when he says "law" he means "gospel". A deep dive must be done apart from isolated interviews that provide an opportunity to say the right things in order to sound orthodox.
I'm a Reformed Baptist pastor who has read Doug Wilson's stuff off and on through the last three decades. I've often rejoiced at what he wrote and sometimes, not so much. I admit to having misunderstood him at times; however, this video is very helpful. Thank you for posting this video (a friend recommended it). I appreciate Dr. White's work in this video and rejoice at Doug Wilson's clear articulation of the Gospel.
This was excellent. While I've never been a detractor of yours, I haven't been quite clear on some of your beliefs; but now I am fully clear. You did a great job of explaining things, Doug, and I am very encouraged as a result. May God continue to bless the work He is doing in you and through you, to His eternal glory. Peace to you in Christ Jesus, brother.
@@georgealvarado4660 amen, grace to you George, and to Christian Sermon and Audio Books poster, please be careful. Jesus Christ alone saves. It is His faithfulness. The reborn by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone trust only in the faithfulness of Christ. This is not a time to rejoice or to think something excellent is happening. Sadly what is happening right now is that James White is being deceived. "For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. " 2 Corinthians 11:4 it is quite sad that Doug Wilson who is a false teacher is tolerated. He adds works to faith and greatly assaults justification by faith alone. He did not repent of Federal Vision and its two-tier justification lies. Doug Wilson did not repent of Federal Vision in his 'no mas' statement, he merely with smooth words deceives people. Praying for James White that God will give him the grace to escape this dangerous snare as well as the heretic Michael Brown who is capturing him. Listen to the 22:10-23m segment. Wilson is pointing to the works instead of Christ Jesus. What does God's word say instead of Doug Wilson, "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. " Galatians 2:16
@Custom Made grace to you, this is the sound of Douglas Wilson from your lips. God's word says, "Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love." Douglas Wilson is a false teacher who with smooth words deceives the simple. He has added works to faith and his "no mas" was only a response that said people confused about what he believed and that was merely a subterfuge. Grace to you to repent.
Hey Brother, i also recommend the debatw btween these two, rouching on Baptism, Covenant, and Catholics (Roman Catholics). But the differences are brought out nicely! ~ Solí DÊÔ Gloría!
More more!! Please... You two guys need to film more discussions... I loved listening to the discussion and I've gained so much from both of you!! What a blessing this is!
Somehow, when I listen to Pastors Wilson and White, I just feel smarter. These guys are the current titans of Evangelical Christianity. As in the 80s when E F Hutton would speak, when Pastors Wilson and White speak, you had better listen as something important is about to be said. May God continue to bless them both mightily!
@Ehud's Dagger > It would seem that most of this controversy revolves around folks on all sides who are unwillingly to allow the other person to define their terms... Yes! ...or even to let them finish their train of thought, before refuting... James 1:19-26... "19 Know this, my beloved brothers: let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger; 20 for the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God...." But, the *whole context,* from vv. 19 to 26 tells us how we ought to engage with one another and also with the Scriptures. If we just did this, while discussing our positions...
@@cherylm7321 - > Actually, words aren't something we define individually. Agreed, we shouldn't redefine terms / words. We should try to understand people's perspective, though. So, defining terms is very important. It provides context. If somebody says, "I believe X," we should try to understand X in X's own context. We shouldn't put words in their mouth, interpret X our way, misrepresent X, etc. Once we really understand what is meant by X, we take it to the Scriptures and discern if X is true or false. It's more about two-way communication (both sides carefully listening to each other, trying to understand one another in context) and not being pedantic about the definition of each and every word, that is, unless the terms are purposely altered to cloak the truth. For example, when Christians witness to Mormons, we do need to know each other's terms. Mormons do not believe what is taught in the Bible and redefine terms their way. Words like "salvation" or "virgin birth" or "Scripture," etc., have different meanings to each side. Otherwise, we sit there sounding like we agree with each other, when we don't. We need to know their terms, and they need to know biblical terms, before we can effectively communicate the Gospel to Mormons. Redefining terms isn't "correct" or "right" but it's part of actual communication with people. I think this is the point @ehud's dagger was trying to make.
Again I say, it is unfair the way Rev. Wilson has been treated in recent years on this particular issue. As far as I can tell, disagreements aside, he is a brother, and a good one. Social media has made us weird.
I am so glad I found this video. I am sorry to say that because of certain influences, I had had an allergy to Wilson, but in truth I had never read him or listened to him. I have since repented of this and have not only been enjoying listening to him for his wit and turns of phrase, but I am also being edified by his teaching. Much more than I was edified by some teaching elsewhere. I have always appreciated White's teaching and work, so this was a very excellent video and conversation between these two godly men of the Lord on an important topic and the clarification thereof. Thank you for doing it in order to broach this topic and iron it out. It was very clearly laid out and helpful to the thoughtful and open listener.
I am a Reformed Presbyterian, and my husband has told me that part of the Federal Vision includes ensconcing the ceremonial law in civil law. This sounds to me like it must be a misunderstanding. I’ve read and heard enough from Rev. Wilson concerning the gospel, to be very doubtful he would like to see the ceremonial law reestablished as civil law.
Awwwww such a cute ending haha. Doug is so gracious and gentle. I just don't understand how so many Reformed folk attack him and even condemn his soul. It makes no sense. He has clarified his views over and over for more than 15 years!!
I'm so glad I watched this. It really helped clear up any misconceptions I had. I will say, the hyper criticism of Christians from other Christians, has been really discouraging. I just pray for us as Christians to be more patient and charitable to one another. After all, we are all united to Christ.
More like the Mad Hatter and the March Hare. This is absurd. They could make getting out of a paper bag complicated. I love it. They are driving people away. This just shows this religion is a total mess and a total farce.
I have been listening to James White since I got saved over 10 years ago. I’ve listened to countless debates, dividing line podcasts, etc. james is not just a safe resource, he is truly a hero of the faith. He is responsible for bringing me from a reformed dispensational (John MacArthur ) eschatology, to now a postmil partial preterist position. He has a video explaining his transition and mentioned Gary Demar, Ken Gentry, Greg Bahnsen, and Doug Wilson. Since then I have immersed in their videos available on UA-cam and have grown so much as a result. I also have been listening to James B Jordan’s revelation series, I looked on the puritan page and find all kinds of unfounded negative things said about James jordan and Doug Wilson… I’m glad I’ve listened to Doug and James Jordan before I went to the Puritan Page otherwise I may have missed out on the great value these brothers bring to the table.
Hi All, The only comment I have to make about Dr. James White's interview of Pastor Wilson is that it was a respectful interchange of ideas among erudite individuals. Their conversation proves we can all disagree with each other on certain issues in a graceful and polite manner. God Bless Everyone, QP
Here we have together two of my most admired thinkers of America today. They are both fighting the good fight, and I have great respect for their work of bringing Truth to all good thinking people of not only America, but to the whole world. I thank you both and pray for your needs and success in all you put your minds and hands to. God Bless Yunz.
I am brand new to Doug Wilson. I don't know what all the fuss is about. There was not one thing he said here that I disagreed with. It was 100% orthodox
After two weeks of arguing with the "Christmas is pagan" Arminians left wing of the ignorant church on my UA-cam channel.. it's such a blessing to be refreshed hearing sound polite discussions by two of the churches best workmen. Merry Christmas!!
I really wish we all would stop calling out people, who are suppose to be Chrstians, ignorant..... Especially when it comes to the whole Arminian vs Calvanists. And, not everyone you might consider Arminian hold to ALL Arminian views. Arminians seem to be painted as stupid and Calvanists as superior in knowledge because their views are absolutely right and they are superior theologians. My views do side more with Leighton Flowers teachings on Soteriology BUT I LOVE that the Calvanists and Lutherans call out the WOF, NAR, Health and Wealth, Social Justice heresies.
@@rachelvanzile hello, specifically called the ones on my channel ignorant, which is the most gracious thing that could be said about them. Take a look at the comments in my "Christmas is not pagan" video. You tell me if I was too harsh?
@@FisherOfPeople well, I'm feeling a little ignorant myself right now. A fool answereth before knowing the matter. I stand corrected, please forgive me. Those are legalistic crazy kind of people. Given my background in Pentecostalism I sometimes worry about being that way with people.....that stuff is hard to unlearn. And some people seem to think we don't speak the God given language of English and must speak Hebrew, what's up with that?
@@FisherOfPeople I'll look at your video. My impression of those few I know that hold that view is they're trying really really hard to differ, to stand out by dissing something most people accept. Half the time it seems like they're missing the actual Biblical meaning of the Advent of our Messiah and are just observing that it's become a shallow overly commercialized cultural 'rite' devoid of deeper meaning, THEN they pillory those who actually embrace the deeper Spiritual & Biblical roots as celebrating it unwisely because it may have some pagan antecedent influences. Also recall that JW's, Church of Christ, and I believe Mennonite & Amish all hold this view so all put together that's a sizable number, probably 5-10 million believers who could be the ones arguing with you. My lifelong Brother in Christ holds this view and we settled it by an appeal to conscience that each one of us was trying to honor the LORD by following what they thought Scripture, History & Tradition led us to practice or NOT practice...
I'm one of the ones this helped. (Per the ending comment) I had heard of the negative view towards Doug and the "federal vision" but hadn't actually heard anything that I disagreed with in the many teachings of his that I've listened to. I do disagree with his Presbyterian view of the covenants, but I find tremendous value in what his/ that model produces. Therefore from a practical view, I see the benefits. So if federal vision is simply, covenant vision then I'm tracking with what he's trying to do. I appreciate Doug and his faithfulness to Christ in all that he does. Thank you!
This was very enlightening! I'd like to thank James White for his amicability and willingness to listen to Doug and get the real story behind the irresponsible accusations made by others who don't understand the issue and refuse to take the time to learn it.
I remember hearing about the evils of Federal Vision a decade ago, I could never figure out what it was supposed to be, but didn't spend much time on it. A year or two ago, I sat down and tried to figure out what it was, and the controversy still didn't make much sense. I read the statement, it seemed ok; a few things I disagreed with, but nothing that stood out as heretical. I looked at the counter-arguments, and it followed the pattern, well the statement is ok, but this one guy in this one book said this one thing that was bad, therefore the whole thing is bad. Then in this video, Doug said that Trinity Foundation wrote an article against the conference, and it all made sense to me. Those guys always seem to go around trying to put down other Christian groups and alleging some apostasy in various people, especially VanTillians for some reason. They aren't as bad as some, but makes sense of the conclusion I had arrived at that the federal vision "controversy" was a bunch of sound and fury and not much more.
I am very ignorant to this whole issue, but what you just wrote reminds me of pulpit & pen. Basically, drum up some supposed controversy without solid backing and repeat ad nauseum.
After about ten years break from the Federal Vision I can confirm that Douglas Wilson still has the same theology now that he had then. He is a Calvinist evangelical plain and simple.
@@MansterBear Awesome. Where did you get your influences from? I started in a Calvary Chapel (Arminian) church and after three years I listened to James White once.
@@harposhizzle I go to a very conservative, sound Assemblies of God church (yes, shocking I know, but some do exist). We don't have people shouting in tongues, or dancing acting crazy, etc. In fact, our pastor teaches tongues should never happen without an interpretation, and that pretty much put an end to tongues about 10+ years ago. I've been at this church literally since I was in nursery. My grandma was the secretary for 25 years, still plays piano in the choir, etc. A little over a year ago I just kept feeling conviction over not reading the Word like I should, recognizing I'd spend hours per week listening to politics, playing video games, watching sports, etc and would barely read my bible or spend time in prayer. I knew I had to change it, and I decided to get a new Bible to kick things off. Between my wife and I we had a few NIVs, she had a super old KJV from one of her grandparents, maybe an NKJV somewhere in a box. So I started searching for info on Bible translations, and learned that KJVOnlyism is a thing. I didn't really have a horse in the race, and I somewhat see the world in an "older is less corrupted" lense anyway, so if it was the truth, then I was going to just go with a KJV. Then I stumbled across this bald guy with a white goatee..... I first saw James White on Wretched Radio with Todd Friel. After that I found his YT channel, watched his 3 hour interview with Steven Anderson, started listening to his podcast, found Apologia Studios, then John MacArthur, then RC Sproul, Paul Washer, etc and the rest is history. So now I'm pretty much reformed in my sotierology, although I don't go to a reformed church. My pastor isn't reformed, but he's not anti-Calvinist either. He jokingly calls himself a 2.5 Point Calvinist. But he is a biblically sound, expositional teacher, so God's sovereignty is just part of his teaching, because it's in the Bible. Plenty of times in our study of the OT we did this year on Wednesday nights, he'd be explaining a passage and end it with "And God is sovereign" as if to pre-empt the "objections" that might come to the plain teaching of God's sovereignty over man in stories like the exodus, or Joseph, etc. I am curious what a reformed church is like, but the only one I know of around here is a PCA church. I wouldn't mind going, but it would be a big shift to paedobaptist. My pastor is in his 20th year, and he plans on going another 10 years or so, so I don't plan on leaving as long as he's there. After that, we'll see what happens. Sorry for the long response. I just feel I have to explain somewhat, because most people here Assemblies of God / Pentecostal and picture people sprinting around the sanctuary, and falling over, and screaming nonsense words. Oh, and FWIW, I ended up going with the ESV.
It's so messed up that I've read comments from Calvinists online calling Doug Wilson a false prophet, unsaved, a deliberate deceiver etc. What on earth has he said or done to deserve such reckless hate??
Many claim that he espouses all these false doctrines. Really though, it is that they just do not like his attitude or style and therefore justify their disdain for him by claiming that he is a heretic.
Very good, it's just a shame that this type of calm and intelligent conversation did not mark the discussion from the outset. To many people divided over these issues that were often a matter of semantics. God Bless and thanks.
Though I'm a Premill Dispe, I find myself agreeing on many points with brother Doug. I think it be that he's thoroughly biblical and that informs his soteriology. He and James' non sectarian spirit is refreshing and very Romans 14 - 15. None of us will have the same opinion but we all must have the same mind: "The Mind of Christ". Wake up Church, we'll need each other more and more in an increasingly hostile world!!
Doug's answer to Jame's last question Is the definition to "turning the right cheek", has absolutely nothing to do with avoiding protecting your family or self defense and everything to do with verbal abuse and slander. Great picture, thank you James and Doug. Praise God.
Galatians, Please read Matthew 5 again, but more carefully. Jesus said, 'You have heard it said, " An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth... Look at Exodus 21:24. It is physical justice for physical inequities. Absolutely nothing is mentioned in either context about 'verbal' abuse. Please be careful how you handle the word of God, and how you represent Christ. God Bless
Larry Helmuth - if you read the quoted verse "carefully" but start with verse 22 and read in-context you understand that the eye4eye and tooth4tooth is "if" the baby comes out harmed after the pregnant woman got hit by a fight between 2 men and if not then the dude that hit her pays however her husband says to.
@@larryhelmuth691 jews were applying civil punishments in a personal fashion. Not going to the proper facet to deal with injustice. Eye for eye tooth for tooth was a civil sanction, jews were applying it in personal vengeance. Taking justice into their own hands. If those verses weren't addressed to individuals but to a civil magistrate, I think the content would be extremely different. Self defense has always been biblical though, not a civil sanction
Doug Wilson with James White, December 14, 2019. “I'm an evangelical. In my book from that era, “Reformed is not Enough” I begin the book with three chapters in a row of my Calvinistic bona fides, my reformed bona fides and my evangelical bona fides to make it clear that I believe in the absolute necessity of the new birth; to make it clear that I believe in justification by faith alone plus nothing. And so I've held to those views throughout this whole controversy. But I do hold in the thing that made me federal vision at all, that is I do believe in the objectivity of the visible covenant, the objectivity of the visible Church and its genuine relationship to God in Christ and that was the hinge of our debate back in 2004. That’s what we were talking about. But I absolutely affirmed that if a person is not regenerated by the Holy Spirit in turn in his heart, if he doesn't have the heart of stone taken away and the heart of flesh replacing it done by the Holy Spirit, he's lost. It doesn't matter what kind of Christian he was or calls himself. He’s the kind of Christian that is going to hell. He doesn't, he was not a member of what classic reformed theology would call the invisible church. He’s not going to be part of what I called the eschatological church. He didn't have the root of the matter in him and the root of the matter is faith; begins with faith, continues by faith, finishes by faith. And so one of the weird things in this in the troubles that come out when, if I attack the people who are just causing our civilization to disintegrate, and many of our evangelical institutions are disintegrating right along with it, as you pointed out, the trolls come out. One of the things they say over and over and over is Federal Vision; “he denies justification by faith alone”! But I don't deny justification by faith alone. I affirm it stoutly from beginning to end. I don't deny the imputation of the act of obedience of Christ, I don't deny the imputation of the passive obedience of Christ as a forensic act that God performs at the point of a of an individual's true conversion that's that happens and I've maintained that now maintained it all the way through. Now I don't get justified because of how well I'm doing in my sanctification, but... let's say five years after conversion I have a really bad week and I sin a lot in that week and on the Friday of that really bad week I get hit by a truck; I go to heaven. I go to heaven because I'm perfect in Christ. I go to heaven because I'm justified because I was declared not guilty, because of the righteousness of Jesus Christ. but I was having a bad week because I wasn't walking by faith with regard to my sanctification the way I should have been which is why Paul chides the Galatians; “are you so foolish; having begun with the Spirit are you now going to finish by human effort”, are you not gonna finish in the flesh? No. And in Romans 1 Paul says that he, quoting Habakkuk - “the just shall live by faith”, but notice the just; it doesn't say the just shall start my faith and finish by works. It says the just shall live by faith. So I'm converted on Tuesday, I'm justified by faith alone on Tuesday. On Wednesday everything I do ought to be by faith also, right? On Thursday sanctification is by faith, and it's the same faith and it's a living faith because God doesn't give any other kind.
22:00 and following, this is exactly what Paul Washer believes and teaches. Salvation is by faith alone, but faith is never alone. The true believer will demonstrate by his life that he has truly believed. I have never understood what is so controversial about this. On the lighter side, I have met Norman Shepherd myself, through one of his daughters, who used to worship at my church. I didn't know about the controversy at the time I met him. He was just the father of one of my sisters in Christ who happened to be a retired pastor and professor. I learned about the controversy much later, but I never asked his daughter about it, thinking it might be too controversial a topic for our discussion. I also have a relationship to the Auburn Heresy, as I am a native of Auburn, NY. I didn't know anything about that episode, either, until much later in life. But, I found it fascinating that my hometown was such an important player in some serious theological questions. Isn't it interesting what connections we all have to history?
The reality is that faith alone is simple not enough. Faith must be accompanied by obedience. If one does not obey God, that means that they lack the virtue of love.
@@mosesking2923 I don't know how many times this point has been addressed throughout history. Faith, alone, is all that's necessary. But that faith, if it is genuine, WILL produce the other fruit, as well as obedience. This is what Paul Washer teaches consistently. This is what other Reformed people teach consistently. The evidence of true faith, true conversion, is a growing holiness and conformity to the image of Christ. As it is said, salvation is by faith alone, but that faith is never alone. It is accompanied by all the characteristics that mark a true believer. We are not saved by works, and we are not kept by works. God himself keeps the believer. He begins the good work, and He sees it to completion. Are you confident you can keep the Law perfectly? I'm not. Jesus said that your righteousness had to exceed that of the Pharisees. You had to be perfect. Thank God the believer is perfect in Christ's finished work. Peace.
@@argerm57 _"...salvation is by faith alone..."_ A nitpick, but I think an important one. *Salvation* is _by_ grace alone _through_ faith. *Justification* is by faith alone (though of course by a faith that is not alone).
Love my brothers even though each of them are “cheeky” in their own way. The one quips about warmer weather and the other has a bouncy,breathy, giddiness over wordplay and I would give both of them a “holy kiss” and would want both of them as companions if facing imprisonments. What beautiful songs of worship in harmony would be heard from the darkness.
The Federal Vision conversation, more than any in are age, has become an occasion for the "Truly Reformed" to engage in vigorous navel-gazing rather than join the Church of Christ in marching upon the gates of Hell.
On the portion at the end of this discussion related to "reading outside your camp," I am reminded at RC Sproul who often mentioned the fact that he only attended liberal schools of theology and yet was still able to come to a conservative evangelical theology. He also mentioned that he could take from many theologians who were skeptics against conservative theological positions and put together an orthodox. work. He said he'd have to be very selective. But he could draw from the real expertise to get proper positions on key issues.
As a reformed Anglican I can fully agree with Wilson on his “Amber Ale” position… and I think Cranmer would agree. We are justified by Grace alone through Faith alone. Yes we have the sacraments but I don’t believe the sacraments play role in regeneration or salvation. I see my theology much closer to Wilson’s Westminster Presbyterianism than to the Roman church and I would say the same thing about the “Oatmeal Stout” people. There is not quite the difference that Wilson makes it out to be here.
Finally!! Hallelujah 🙌 very surprised James kept it together, praise God..you could feel he was on the back foot at the start, but, couldn't you just hear him going, "ohhhhh rightttt" lol 😂, getting clarity, listening instead of judgement, lol 😂 🙌 hallelujah 🙌 finally some maturing going on.. 👍
I have only been exposed to White through his many videos with Doug, and at conferences in Moscow, and have never seen any hint of not "keeping it together". seems a gracious man to me
@@alsteiner7602Yeah, agreed. I've seen accusations like this made against White before, but it is usually from anticalvinists who have no counterargument against his use of scripture and so are only left with name calling, thus they project their wounded pride and arrogance back onto White.
Greg Wow! That’s awesome! I’ve been training in Taekwondo for a couple of months and actually tomorrow I’m hoping I’ll be able to go sit in on and observe and Aikido class for the first time. I’m really intrigued by Aikido. I’m aware of the what many consider to be shortcomings but I still see certain benefits, at least enough to check it out anyways.
I don't know why everyone says "Oh, Doug Wilson is slick. Of course he will affirm classic reformed theology, but out of the other side of his mouth he will deny it."
Sinclair Ferguson makes a distinction by referring to a real born again person, walking with the Lord as "Christian believer". We all know that millions call themselves as "Christians" who are no more Christian than a Muslim. Paul refers to a Christian as "in Christ" or a version of that. Christian was originally a term that was derogatory. We are supposed to be followers of Christ, ie, Disciples.
Brethren, not one time have i ever heard you two Brothers speak and not been extremely Edified. Sorry, here: i have been Extremely Edified by GOD through these Brothers Every time they talk! Thanks, Praise, n Glory be to YHWH In YESHUA .
Nobody does! According to everything I've heard, it started out as a discussion, then went into many different tangents called "Federal Vision." It seems that Does Wilson has been distancing himself from that term, since it has become meaningless, and he has to constantly explain himself.
Federal Vision was basically a conference and a movement with theological and sociopolitical motivations. Some forms of Reformed/Covenant Theology and postmillennialism, with a very conservative approach. There's different folks in the camp. For instance, Doug Wilson is just Reformed. That's it. He's not like the Theopolis guys, which he says earlier in the video are basically Anglican or Lutheran in their theology (primarily concerning baptism). The Theopolis guys were/are FV, but in a different way than Wilson
As I understand it FV is not really a single strain of theology but basically a discussion that had many offshoots of varying amounts of orthodoxy. Like "evangelical" it is a term with very little concrete meaning. This is why it is important to listen carefully to what folks are actually saying rather than just looking for buzz words or cow bells.
Can someone summarize what Doug believes and what this who degrees with him believe? I can't follow it. It sounds like Doug is just affirming the basic gospel. Who disagrees that justification is final? I'm missing something.
Great discussion! Thank you for having such a candid conversation! The only thing I disagree with Pastor Wilson is the dislike of "covenant of works". The Westminster Confession of Faith uses covenant of works and defines what it is and how it contrasts with covenant of grace. As long as we have a biblical understanding of what the terms are, I don't think it's going to be confusing.
This is in response to "theendisnear17"s comment (see below) [TheEndIsNear17 Thankfully Wilson is not. Because if he was, I would want no Part of Christianity. But thankfully the Apostles as Well as Jesus didn't act like him.] What a strange and terribly hardhearted comment. If you are accusing Paster Wilson of not being a Christian, my response to that would be repent for we are forbidden to judge another's salvation. As for wanting no part of Christianity if it includes the likes of Pastor Wilson, I say repent again for Christianity is not based on any human's approval but wholly on the Word of God as revealed in His Scriptures. God chooses who is elect, in accordance with His good mercies and grace, and not in accordance with the likes and dislikes of any man. Brother, please read the Bible prayerfully and seek solid mentoring at your local church. May God grant you clarity and mercy.
I love Dr White's willingness to go in depth on all kinds of issues and debate so many people who have different views than he does. My only critique would be the way he smugly dismisses infant baptism but never has anyone to speak about it from a non-Calvinist viewpoint. He's debated with other Calvinists but Calvinists who believe in what they call "paedobaptism" are not the same as discussing it with a confessional Lutheran or even an Anglican. Every time I hear him, and other Calvinists like Dr Wilson glibly dismiss infant baptism it's clear that they're not looking at a true sacramental understanding of baptism. He can't really claim to be a theological descendant of Luther if he's not at least willing to hear it defended from a confessional Lutheran perspective.
I'm not sure a solid covenental Westminster Confession holding Reformed Christian would give all that different an answer to the Anglican or Lutheran once all the language differences are unpacked. The biggest difference seems to me to be best explained in WCF 27.2 where Reformed Christian's have a habit of speaking in terms of the thing signified and Lutherans in terms of the sign. Neither Calvin nor Reformed Christians are Zwinglists (though Lutherans seem to forget that), and Lutherans in speaking of the sacrament arent claiming that the mere human ceremony where they get wet is the thing causing regeneration, as if baptism were purely a man thing and not a work of God. If there is an important distinction that ought to be made, it keeps gets lost when people are too quick to divide over semantics.
Yes, they (evanjellycals) agree, "but they have boards, mortgages, complications". LOL. Just have to call out "wimpy"on those folks. Doug's explanation of his view of justification and sanctification is perfectly Reformed, Westminsterian, and biblical in every way! Why do people still accuse this man and treat him like a pariah? I can't think of any more robustly reformed man alive today. It's ridiculous.
Somehow people like Doug get lumped in a category that they don’t belong. If you really listen to him mostly what he says is stuff of a believer that is doing his best to explain complex things. There are many people that will attack him wrongly while promoting unbiblical teachings by addition or subtraction. You can tell the fruit of a teacher typically by listening more to see what they say. He has fruit.
I can’t see how you could call someone a brother and never have a debate with them. If that were the case all my brothers would be strangers to me, I wouldn’t know them at all.
I do not understand the insistence from guys like Doug Wilson and James White in saying that "anyone who is Biblically literate knows that 'works' in Pauline language is a bad thing". That does not accurately characterize Pauline doctrine in any way, shape, or form. I'm sure they would dispute this and try to nuance their position if pushed, but when I hear them speak on this subject, they present themselves as being hostile to "righteous works" in an almost antinomian in nature. Paul is very pro-works: Ephesians 2:10 (NET) For we are his workmanship, having been created in Christ Jesus for good works that God prepared beforehand so we may do them. Romans 2:7 (NET) eternal life to those who by perseverance in good works seek glory and honor and immortality, Titus 2:7 (NET) showing yourself to be an example of good works in every way. In your teaching show integrity, dignity, Titus 3:8 (NET) This saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on such truths, so that those who have placed their faith in God may be intent on engaging in good works. These things are good and beneficial for all people. What they mean is that in Romans 3:20 - 4:6; 9:11 - 11:6 (and any corresponding soteriological Pauline passages), "works" as it characterizes "the works of the law" are presented as insufficient to merit salvation. Paul does not call them "bad", in fact, he even takes the time to correct that misconception (Romans 7:7). Paul never refers to works as "bad" or "evil". He simply affirms that righteous works before one's new birth by God's grace through faith are entirely insufficient to evoke, effect, or merit salvation. In other words, Biblical soteriology is not based on meritorious works, but righteous works are not bad. And they are the necessary result of true salvation. I'm not condemning these two, but I am frustrated by their insistence to use unBiblical and misleading terminology that has, in fact, produced an antinomian theology in many evangelical churches. This kind of lazy theological talk is the gateway to the apostate hyper-grace and prosperity gospels.
Here's the link to Brandon Adams original post, for those who'd like the context: contrast2.wordpress.com/2019/12/03/federal-vision-baptists/ Also, Doug Wilson's response: dougwils.com/the-church/s16-theology/heidelfog.html
Is there a video/audio of the so-called "sitting on couches that are on fire"? I believe that Doug would have survived the fiery furnace by God's grace but not sure if THAT video exists...
Haha, by god's grace we won't have to find out. But yes you can watch the No Quarter November 2018 trailer here: ua-cam.com/video/W0ITIMjWHP8/v-deo.html and the NQN 2019 trailer here: ua-cam.com/video/rpz7IuVsPpc/v-deo.html
This should not be complicated, Jeremiah 31 says that God puts his "LAW" in your inward parts. Through Jesus we as gentiles are grafted in to receive this blessing.
There is no context for this video. The discussion starts off talking about some event or show down or article that put Doug in a hot seat, but what exactly happened?
Doug Wilson was part of a conference a long time ago and the title of it was “federal vision.” They emphasized covenantal continuity and the objectivity of the covenant and the sacraments. Lots of “reformed” people took issue with the way they worded some things and with the fact that they affirmed the passive obedience of Christ and questioned His active obedience being applied to us. Some people out there have taken it too far from what I hear but most of the controversy consists of many reformed pastors being offended by basic reformed teaching straight out of the confessions due to their own ignorance of the subjects. I would recommend listing to the videos about federal vision on the “Reformation Red Pill” channel. That’s basically where I figured out what was really going on. I think one was just called federal vision and the other one was titled something like “is Doug Wilson a heretic?” Pretty interesting conversations.
For more discussion like this, click here:
ua-cam.com/play/PLaUso8l3U_deFzvtwRwRpANmvSY-7dh5W.html
So it the anti Christ marches for saving babies or some issue you can united you will march with him? Same with Hitler? The devil? The temptating snake? How about when the devil was tempting Jesus? Should you united with him if ask for your hand to overcome world hunger? Or jump off this tower to show your support to stop certain evil in the world? Witchcraft? Culak clan? Ceasar? Bloody Mary? You can happily march with all of them and unite under one common vision? Even though you disagree??? The Anti Christ perform miracles to help the poor and needy and ask the church to join in worship that God will bless the miracles? Or open up so the church can help the people who are healed to be ministered? Is that it????
Doug is very charismatic in his thinking as they also say like with Rick warren. We stand with his purpose vision but we dont agree with everything he says. He still has a lot of good things and we go to the same conference uniting together.
And if you do that then what the point in discerment we just join together under the banner of uniting for the common good. Mormons, stanism, Nazi, Islam all unit under the common good. Or if Christian then mormon, Oneness, Catholic, NAR all uniting to stop abortion for example. Is this what its been suggested?????
Now with the fundamentalist issue about you cant read outside your camp...
I am with Dr James that you should BUT! The Charismatic are doing exactly that reading outside their camp and learning spiritual and look what is happening to them with the NAR and Bethel and Hillsong and all the others in between. They scold you about association and say your just being too fundamental and you need to broaden your horizon and learn!
Now lets go to the wokeness happening in the current media...
So should Christian watch barbie for entertainment and for edification to learn? Cause if your watching it you be affected whether your just watching it to critique. There is a high risk you can be affected.
Now how about weaker Christians?
Is this a green light too for them? To tell them just go watch barbie even though its has a hidden woke message? Just watch it cause if you do you can be more informed? In doing so you help these weak Christian see that wokness is nothing bad. Even though you told them becareful they go see it and be sold to a hidden woke message.
So there are real big big issues on this that i hope this can be address! I am so worried and confused why Dr James and Doug would want this. After all Dr James is shouting out to fight for truth and is fundamental. This very act will undo them both as they might be impervious to the treachery in woke teachings. But not the avg Christian who are told forgot association just join them if there is common cause. Again this is how the Charismatic has become the seeker sensitive church. Cause association was seen as being too fundamental and as Bill Johnson states that we need to break free!
"For decades the Church has been guilty of creating doctrine to justify their lack of power..."
I've never heard Wilson say anything heretical. I've heard many reformed people speak negatively about him for what i believe were misunderstandings. It's a shame this happened. I think most of them never took the time to really get to the bottom of things, and were too quick to jump on the judgmental bandwagon. They are Berean in theory, but not in practice. Wilson is a good man.
ucenic1 two words; Reformed. Pub.
He uses a dialectic theology another words he is a walking contradiction another words this theology they speak out both sides of their mouths it's their network marketing to get into homes and churches and governments
Generic Guy
Exactly!
Totally agree! Wilson is a great man. And he has a sense of humor too! :)
Very true Night Train. Far too many listen only to hear what they want to hear.
Never before has a pair of sweater vests been so righteously intimidating
10/10
11/10
Lol.
They called each other the morning before to synchronize! James said, I'm doin the Coogí; Doug said, I'm doin the Dougy
-this is what we got ~gotta Love i✝
And no, this is not the new Reformed look...
Although, if they threw their bow ties on!!)
@@TIMEROTAS is that something to do with "rightly dividing".
As one might expect, allowing Pastor Wilson to explain his position clears away a ton of the smoke and shade thrown about by his opponents. Great conversation, gentlemen.
The things he says in this conversation contradict what he has said in his books. The things he says in this conversation do not reveal the specific teachings of the Federal Vision. Doug Wilson changes the meaning of words so it sounds like he's saying what the Westminster Confession teaches. When he says "Faith", he means "works" and when he says "law" he means "gospel". A deep dive must be done apart from isolated interviews that provide an opportunity to say the right things in order to sound orthodox.
I'm a Reformed Baptist pastor who has read Doug Wilson's stuff off and on through the last three decades. I've often rejoiced at what he wrote and sometimes, not so much. I admit to having misunderstood him at times; however, this video is very helpful. Thank you for posting this video (a friend recommended it). I appreciate Dr. White's work in this video and rejoice at Doug Wilson's clear articulation of the Gospel.
This was excellent. While I've never been a detractor of yours, I haven't been quite clear on some of your beliefs; but now I am fully clear. You did a great job of explaining things, Doug, and I am very encouraged as a result. May God continue to bless the work He is doing in you and through you, to His eternal glory. Peace to you in Christ Jesus, brother.
Doug Wilson believes Roman Catholics are brothers by baptism. Not exactly something to be encouraged by.
@@georgealvarado4660 amen, grace to you George, and to Christian Sermon and Audio Books poster, please be careful. Jesus Christ alone saves. It is His faithfulness. The reborn by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone trust only in the faithfulness of Christ. This is not a time to rejoice or to think something excellent is happening. Sadly what is happening right now is that James White is being deceived.
"For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
" 2 Corinthians 11:4
it is quite sad that Doug Wilson who is a false teacher is tolerated. He adds works to faith and greatly assaults justification by faith alone. He did not repent of Federal Vision and its two-tier justification lies. Doug Wilson did not repent of Federal Vision in his 'no mas' statement, he merely with smooth words deceives people. Praying for James White that God will give him the grace to escape this dangerous snare as well as the heretic Michael Brown who is capturing him.
Listen to the 22:10-23m segment. Wilson is pointing to the works instead of Christ Jesus. What does God's word say instead of Doug Wilson, "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
" Galatians 2:16
@Custom Made grace to you, how do you know what you say is true? Show yourself approved and test all things, grace to you to do so.
@Custom Made grace to you, this is the sound of Douglas Wilson from your lips.
God's word says, "Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love."
Douglas Wilson is a false teacher who with smooth words deceives the simple. He has added works to faith and his "no mas" was only a response that said people confused about what he believed and that was merely a subterfuge. Grace to you to repent.
Hey Brother, i also recommend the debatw btween these two, rouching on Baptism, Covenant, and Catholics (Roman Catholics). But the differences are brought out nicely! ~ Solí DÊÔ Gloría!
I wish these two would discuss issue together more often. Great men!
They really should!
Can't promise anything yet...but stay tuned!
This comment aged well.
Two of my favorites together is a blessing
More more!! Please... You two guys need to film more discussions... I loved listening to the discussion and I've gained so much from both of you!! What a blessing this is!
A cute girl that loves reformed theology...that's what we need more of.
Somehow, when I listen to Pastors Wilson and White, I just feel smarter. These guys are the current titans of Evangelical Christianity. As in the 80s when E F Hutton would speak, when Pastors Wilson and White speak, you had better listen as something important is about to be said. May God continue to bless them both mightily!
smarter?
It would seem that most of this controversy revolves around folks on all sides who are unwillingly to allow the other person to define their terms...
@Ehud's Dagger
> It would seem that most of this controversy revolves around folks on all sides who are unwillingly to allow the other person to define their terms...
Yes! ...or even to let them finish their train of thought, before refuting...
James 1:19-26...
"19 Know this, my beloved brothers: let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger; 20 for the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God...."
But, the *whole context,* from vv. 19 to 26 tells us how we ought to engage with one another and also with the Scriptures. If we just did this, while discussing our positions...
Actually, words aren't something we define individually.
@@cherylm7321 - > Actually, words aren't something we define individually.
Agreed, we shouldn't redefine terms / words. We should try to understand people's perspective, though. So, defining terms is very important. It provides context.
If somebody says, "I believe X," we should try to understand X in X's own context. We shouldn't put words in their mouth, interpret X our way, misrepresent X, etc.
Once we really understand what is meant by X, we take it to the Scriptures and discern if X is true or false.
It's more about two-way communication (both sides carefully listening to each other, trying to understand one another in context) and not being pedantic about the definition of each and every word, that is, unless the terms are purposely altered to cloak the truth.
For example, when Christians witness to Mormons, we do need to know each other's terms. Mormons do not believe what is taught in the Bible and redefine terms their way. Words like "salvation" or "virgin birth" or "Scripture," etc., have different meanings to each side. Otherwise, we sit there sounding like we agree with each other, when we don't. We need to know their terms, and they need to know biblical terms, before we can effectively communicate the Gospel to Mormons.
Redefining terms isn't "correct" or "right" but it's part of actual communication with people.
I think this is the point @ehud's dagger was trying to make.
Great conversation. I’m so glad the Lord led me to find these two. I’ve learned so much from both Dr. White and Pastor Doug, but also Apologia.
I have come to appreciate both these men in this day and age where there is so much compromise and deception. Thank you both for your courage.
Again I say, it is unfair the way Rev. Wilson has been treated in recent years on this particular issue. As far as I can tell, disagreements aside, he is a brother, and a good one. Social media has made us weird.
@Nelson's RudolphBeing pro-Confederate does not equal to pro-American slavery. Look up the Gospel Coalition's article on Doug and see for yourself.
@@sambo12386 Exactly! Lee himself was against slavery. Yet he supported the Confederacy.
@@gch8810 Yes indeed. It was more about Jeffersonian v.s. Hamiltonian governance, and of course hegemony.
I am so glad I found this video. I am sorry to say that because of certain influences, I had had an allergy to Wilson, but in truth I had never read him or listened to him. I have since repented of this and have not only been enjoying listening to him for his wit and turns of phrase, but I am also being edified by his teaching. Much more than I was edified by some teaching elsewhere. I have always appreciated White's teaching and work, so this was a very excellent video and conversation between these two godly men of the Lord on an important topic and the clarification thereof. Thank you for doing it in order to broach this topic and iron it out. It was very clearly laid out and helpful to the thoughtful and open listener.
The bouncer analogy is great. I've listened to this several times and am still gleaning from it. Thank you!
I am a Reformed Presbyterian, and my husband has told me that part of the Federal Vision includes ensconcing the ceremonial law in civil law. This sounds to me like it must be a misunderstanding. I’ve read and heard enough from Rev. Wilson concerning the gospel, to be very doubtful he would like to see the ceremonial law reestablished as civil law.
Awwwww such a cute ending haha. Doug is so gracious and gentle. I just don't understand how so many Reformed folk attack him and even condemn his soul. It makes no sense. He has clarified his views over and over for more than 15 years!!
Maybe it’s the fake federal vision?
I'm so glad I watched this. It really helped clear up any misconceptions I had. I will say, the hyper criticism of Christians from other Christians, has been really discouraging. I just pray for us as Christians to be more patient and charitable to one another. After all, we are all united to Christ.
Great. So glad this is still available. Both men are explaining some many truthful realities.
This is like an epic Marvel crossover. I forget these guys are in the same universe.
More like the Mad Hatter and the March Hare. This is absurd. They could make getting out of a paper bag complicated.
I love it. They are driving people away. This just shows this religion is a total mess and a total farce.
Charlie Renfro - You're the troll Doug spoke about.
@@Lombokstrait1 STOP IT!! JUST STOP IT!!
@@Lombokstrait1 Nah man,
It's like Iron Man and the Hulk but not the Hulk as Hulk, but as Bruce Banner. Cuz he's smart.
@@Lombokstrait1
Really, if they're driving people away why are YOU here & COMMENTING ?
I have been listening to James White since I got saved over 10 years ago. I’ve listened to countless debates, dividing line podcasts, etc. james is not just a safe resource, he is truly a hero of the faith. He is responsible for bringing me from a reformed dispensational (John MacArthur ) eschatology, to now a postmil partial preterist position. He has a video explaining his transition and mentioned Gary Demar, Ken Gentry, Greg Bahnsen, and Doug Wilson. Since then I have immersed in their videos available on UA-cam and have grown so much as a result. I also have been listening to James B Jordan’s revelation series, I looked on the puritan page and find all kinds of unfounded negative things said about James jordan and Doug Wilson… I’m glad I’ve listened to Doug and James Jordan before I went to the Puritan Page otherwise I may have missed out on the great value these brothers bring to the table.
My UA-cam algorithm hit two nails with one head here.
Please more of these two together.
Thanks for watching! Make sure to subscribe!
Behold, how good and pleasant it is when brothers dwell in unity!
Psalms 133:1
Hi All,
The only comment I have to make about Dr. James White's interview of Pastor Wilson is that it was a respectful interchange of ideas among erudite individuals. Their conversation proves we can all disagree with each other on certain issues in a graceful and polite manner.
God Bless Everyone,
QP
Here we have together two of my most admired thinkers of America today. They are both fighting the good fight, and I have great respect for their work of bringing Truth to all good thinking people of not only America, but to the whole world.
I thank you both and pray for your needs and success in all you put your minds and hands to.
God Bless Yunz.
Can we have a Douglas Wilson & James White show?
Can't promise anything yet...but stay tuned!
@@CanonPress Ooh, ooh, a monthly (or even quarterly) reprise of Burning Couch and the Coogi Man?
@@CanonPress Allow me to rephrase for Julio, we humbly and graciously demand "The Wilson & White Show".
These are two of my favorite teachers, and I think they bring out the best in each other. They should absolutely do more shows together!
I loved Mr. Wilson's comment about "Baptists not recognizing each other at the liquor store." It was very clever and well-timed.
James didn't seem that impressed by it though 😀
I am brand new to Doug Wilson. I don't know what all the fuss is about. There was not one thing he said here that I disagreed with. It was 100% orthodox
After two weeks of arguing with the "Christmas is pagan" Arminians left wing of the ignorant church on my UA-cam channel.. it's such a blessing to be refreshed hearing sound polite discussions by two of the churches best workmen. Merry Christmas!!
Just found your channel. Excited to get into it.
I really wish we all would stop calling out people, who are suppose to be Chrstians, ignorant..... Especially when it comes to the whole Arminian vs Calvanists. And, not everyone you might consider Arminian hold to ALL Arminian views. Arminians seem to be painted as stupid and Calvanists as superior in knowledge because their views are absolutely right and they are superior theologians. My views do side more with Leighton Flowers teachings on Soteriology BUT I LOVE that the Calvanists and Lutherans call out the WOF, NAR, Health and Wealth, Social Justice heresies.
@@rachelvanzile hello, specifically called the ones on my channel ignorant, which is the most gracious thing that could be said about them. Take a look at the comments in my "Christmas is not pagan" video. You tell me if I was too harsh?
@@FisherOfPeople well, I'm feeling a little ignorant myself right now. A fool answereth before knowing the matter. I stand corrected, please forgive me. Those are legalistic crazy kind of people. Given my background in Pentecostalism I sometimes worry about being that way with people.....that stuff is hard to unlearn. And some people seem to think we don't speak the God given language of English and must speak Hebrew, what's up with that?
@@FisherOfPeople I'll look at your video. My impression of those few I know that hold that view is they're trying really really hard to differ, to stand out by dissing something most people accept.
Half the time it seems like they're missing the actual Biblical meaning of the Advent of our Messiah and are just observing that it's become a shallow overly commercialized cultural 'rite' devoid of deeper meaning, THEN they pillory those who actually embrace the deeper Spiritual & Biblical roots as celebrating it unwisely because it may have some pagan antecedent influences.
Also recall that JW's, Church of Christ, and I believe Mennonite & Amish all hold this view so all put together that's a sizable number, probably 5-10 million believers who could be the ones arguing with you.
My lifelong Brother in Christ holds this view and we settled it by an appeal to conscience that each one of us was trying to honor the LORD by following what they thought Scripture, History & Tradition led us to practice or NOT practice...
So refreshing. This conversation did my heart well.
I'm one of the ones this helped. (Per the ending comment)
I had heard of the negative view towards Doug and the "federal vision" but hadn't actually heard anything that I disagreed with in the many teachings of his that I've listened to. I do disagree with his Presbyterian view of the covenants, but I find tremendous value in what his/ that model produces. Therefore from a practical view, I see the benefits. So if federal vision is simply, covenant vision then I'm tracking with what he's trying to do.
I appreciate Doug and his faithfulness to Christ in all that he does. Thank you!
Amen!!!!
Two of my favs, great discussion!
This was very encouraging. As a pastor who has dealt with criticism, I rejoice.
I’ve also heard Christian’s pronounce an anathema on Wilson based on hearsay. Absolutely appalling how people can be.
Yes, it is very appalling when Doug's cronies pronounce anathemas on Baptist theology.
@@recalltolife3478 Where has he done that? 2 or 3 examples, please?
@@PanhandleFrank Doug's cronies. Baptist theology is the cause of transgenderism. Enough said.
@@recalltolife3478Have yet to see that 😏
This was very enlightening! I'd like to thank James White for his amicability and willingness to listen to Doug and get the real story behind the irresponsible accusations made by others who don't understand the issue and refuse to take the time to learn it.
I remember hearing about the evils of Federal Vision a decade ago, I could never figure out what it was supposed to be, but didn't spend much time on it. A year or two ago, I sat down and tried to figure out what it was, and the controversy still didn't make much sense. I read the statement, it seemed ok; a few things I disagreed with, but nothing that stood out as heretical. I looked at the counter-arguments, and it followed the pattern, well the statement is ok, but this one guy in this one book said this one thing that was bad, therefore the whole thing is bad.
Then in this video, Doug said that Trinity Foundation wrote an article against the conference, and it all made sense to me. Those guys always seem to go around trying to put down other Christian groups and alleging some apostasy in various people, especially VanTillians for some reason. They aren't as bad as some, but makes sense of the conclusion I had arrived at that the federal vision "controversy" was a bunch of sound and fury and not much more.
I am very ignorant to this whole issue, but what you just wrote reminds me of pulpit & pen. Basically, drum up some supposed controversy without solid backing and repeat ad nauseum.
After about ten years break from the Federal Vision I can confirm that Douglas Wilson still has the same theology now that he had then. He is a Calvinist evangelical plain and simple.
Doug makes me want to switch from Baptist to Presbyterian, particularly in light of what we are seeing in the false religionists now running the SBC.
"As a Presbyterian we baptize babies."
(Audible Gasp from the audience)
I listen to enough RC Sproul and CrossPolitic that I've been desensitized lol
@@MansterBear A reformed bear, i see
@@harposhizzle
Yep. Just became reformed this year in fact. Been a bear since the bear names started.
@@MansterBear Awesome. Where did you get your influences from? I started in a Calvary Chapel (Arminian) church and after three years I listened to James White once.
@@harposhizzle
I go to a very conservative, sound Assemblies of God church (yes, shocking I know, but some do exist). We don't have people shouting in tongues, or dancing acting crazy, etc. In fact, our pastor teaches tongues should never happen without an interpretation, and that pretty much put an end to tongues about 10+ years ago.
I've been at this church literally since I was in nursery. My grandma was the secretary for 25 years, still plays piano in the choir, etc.
A little over a year ago I just kept feeling conviction over not reading the Word like I should, recognizing I'd spend hours per week listening to politics, playing video games, watching sports, etc and would barely read my bible or spend time in prayer. I knew I had to change it, and I decided to get a new Bible to kick things off. Between my wife and I we had a few NIVs, she had a super old KJV from one of her grandparents, maybe an NKJV somewhere in a box.
So I started searching for info on Bible translations, and learned that KJVOnlyism is a thing. I didn't really have a horse in the race, and I somewhat see the world in an "older is less corrupted" lense anyway, so if it was the truth, then I was going to just go with a KJV.
Then I stumbled across this bald guy with a white goatee..... I first saw James White on Wretched Radio with Todd Friel. After that I found his YT channel, watched his 3 hour interview with Steven Anderson, started listening to his podcast, found Apologia Studios, then John MacArthur, then RC Sproul, Paul Washer, etc and the rest is history.
So now I'm pretty much reformed in my sotierology, although I don't go to a reformed church. My pastor isn't reformed, but he's not anti-Calvinist either. He jokingly calls himself a 2.5 Point Calvinist. But he is a biblically sound, expositional teacher, so God's sovereignty is just part of his teaching, because it's in the Bible. Plenty of times in our study of the OT we did this year on Wednesday nights, he'd be explaining a passage and end it with "And God is sovereign" as if to pre-empt the "objections" that might come to the plain teaching of God's sovereignty over man in stories like the exodus, or Joseph, etc.
I am curious what a reformed church is like, but the only one I know of around here is a PCA church. I wouldn't mind going, but it would be a big shift to paedobaptist. My pastor is in his 20th year, and he plans on going another 10 years or so, so I don't plan on leaving as long as he's there. After that, we'll see what happens.
Sorry for the long response. I just feel I have to explain somewhat, because most people here Assemblies of God / Pentecostal and picture people sprinting around the sanctuary, and falling over, and screaming nonsense words.
Oh, and FWIW, I ended up going with the ESV.
It's so messed up that I've read comments from Calvinists online calling Doug Wilson a false prophet, unsaved, a deliberate deceiver etc. What on earth has he said or done to deserve such reckless hate??
Many claim that he espouses all these false doctrines. Really though, it is that they just do not like his attitude or style and therefore justify their disdain for him by claiming that he is a heretic.
Very good, it's just a shame that this type of calm and intelligent conversation did not mark the discussion from the outset. To many people divided over these issues that were often a matter of semantics. God Bless and thanks.
Beautiful friendship. Especially for how much they know they can debate secondary things at length. They’re people, not a list of stances.
Though I'm a Premill Dispe, I find myself agreeing on many points with brother Doug. I think it be that he's thoroughly biblical and that informs his soteriology. He and James' non sectarian spirit is refreshing and very Romans 14 - 15. None of us will have the same opinion but we all must have the same mind: "The Mind of Christ". Wake up Church, we'll need each other more and more in an increasingly hostile world!!
“…and baptists are those who don’t recognize one another in the liquor store”
👀 ouch!!! Burnnnnn!
Gotta love Doug for his upfront-ness 😂😂😂
Doug's answer to Jame's last question Is the definition to "turning the right cheek", has absolutely nothing to do with avoiding protecting your family or self defense and everything to do with verbal abuse and slander.
Great picture, thank you James and Doug. Praise God.
Galatians,
Please read Matthew 5 again, but more carefully.
Jesus said, 'You have heard it said, " An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth...
Look at Exodus 21:24. It is physical justice for physical inequities.
Absolutely nothing is mentioned in either context about 'verbal' abuse.
Please be careful how you handle the word of God, and how you represent Christ.
God Bless
Larry Helmuth - if you read the quoted verse "carefully" but start with verse 22 and read in-context you understand that the eye4eye and tooth4tooth is "if" the baby comes out harmed after the pregnant woman got hit by a fight between 2 men and if not then the dude that hit her pays however her husband says to.
@@mishkakasalapiy3222 I rest my case...
@@larryhelmuth691 jews were applying civil punishments in a personal fashion. Not going to the proper facet to deal with injustice. Eye for eye tooth for tooth was a civil sanction, jews were applying it in personal vengeance.
Taking justice into their own hands. If those verses weren't addressed to individuals but to a civil magistrate, I think the content would be extremely different. Self defense has always been biblical though, not a civil sanction
This was wonderful! I'm so thankful for these two godly men and that I could sit in on this conversation.
Doug Wilson with James White, December 14, 2019. “I'm an evangelical. In my book from that era, “Reformed is not Enough” I begin the book with three chapters in a row of my Calvinistic bona fides, my reformed bona fides and my evangelical bona fides to make it clear that I believe in the absolute necessity of the new birth; to make it clear that I believe in justification by faith alone plus nothing. And so I've held to those views throughout this whole controversy. But I do hold in the thing that made me federal vision at all, that is I do believe in the objectivity of the visible covenant, the objectivity of the visible Church and its genuine relationship to God in Christ and that was the hinge of our debate back in 2004. That’s what we were talking about.
But I absolutely affirmed that if a person is not regenerated by the Holy Spirit in turn in his heart, if he doesn't have the heart of stone taken away and the heart of flesh replacing it done by the Holy Spirit, he's lost. It doesn't matter what kind of Christian he was or calls himself. He’s the kind of Christian that is going to hell. He doesn't, he was not a member of what classic reformed theology would call the invisible church. He’s not going to be part of what I called the eschatological church. He didn't have the root of the matter in him and the root of the matter is faith; begins with faith, continues by faith, finishes by faith.
And so one of the weird things in this in the troubles that come out when, if I attack the people who are just causing our civilization to disintegrate, and many of our evangelical institutions are disintegrating right along with it, as you pointed out, the trolls come out.
One of the things they say over and over and over is Federal Vision; “he denies justification by faith alone”! But I don't deny justification by faith alone. I affirm it stoutly from beginning to end. I don't deny the imputation of the act of obedience of Christ, I don't deny the imputation of the passive obedience of Christ as a forensic act that God performs at the point of a of an individual's true conversion that's that happens and I've maintained that now maintained it all the way through.
Now I don't get justified because of how well I'm doing in my sanctification, but... let's say five years after conversion I have a really bad week and I sin a lot in that week and on the Friday of that really bad week I get hit by a truck; I go to heaven. I go to heaven because I'm perfect in Christ. I go to heaven because I'm justified because I was declared not guilty, because of the righteousness of Jesus Christ. but I was having a bad week because I wasn't walking by faith with regard to my sanctification the way I should have been which is why Paul chides the Galatians; “are you so foolish; having begun with the Spirit are you now going to finish by human effort”, are you not gonna finish in the flesh? No. And in Romans 1 Paul says that he, quoting Habakkuk - “the just shall live by faith”, but notice the just; it doesn't say the just shall start my faith and finish by works. It says the just shall live by faith. So I'm converted on Tuesday, I'm justified by faith alone on Tuesday. On Wednesday everything I do ought to be by faith also, right? On Thursday sanctification is by faith, and it's the same faith and it's a living faith because God doesn't give any other kind.
22:00 and following, this is exactly what Paul Washer believes and teaches. Salvation is by faith alone, but faith is never alone. The true believer will demonstrate by his life that he has truly believed.
I have never understood what is so controversial about this.
On the lighter side, I have met Norman Shepherd myself, through one of his daughters, who used to worship at my church. I didn't know about the controversy at the time I met him. He was just the father of one of my sisters in Christ who happened to be a retired pastor and professor. I learned about the controversy much later, but I never asked his daughter about it, thinking it might be too controversial a topic for our discussion.
I also have a relationship to the Auburn Heresy, as I am a native of Auburn, NY. I didn't know anything about that episode, either, until much later in life. But, I found it fascinating that my hometown was such an important player in some serious theological questions.
Isn't it interesting what connections we all have to history?
The reality is that faith alone is simple not enough. Faith must be accompanied by obedience. If one does not obey God, that means that they lack the virtue of love.
@@mosesking2923 I don't know how many times this point has been addressed throughout history. Faith, alone, is all that's necessary. But that faith, if it is genuine, WILL produce the other fruit, as well as obedience.
This is what Paul Washer teaches consistently. This is what other Reformed people teach consistently. The evidence of true faith, true conversion, is a growing holiness and conformity to the image of Christ. As it is said, salvation is by faith alone, but that faith is never alone. It is accompanied by all the characteristics that mark a true believer.
We are not saved by works, and we are not kept by works. God himself keeps the believer. He begins the good work, and He sees it to completion.
Are you confident you can keep the Law perfectly? I'm not. Jesus said that your righteousness had to exceed that of the Pharisees. You had to be perfect. Thank God the believer is perfect in Christ's finished work.
Peace.
@@argerm57 _"...salvation is by faith alone..."_
A nitpick, but I think an important one. *Salvation* is _by_ grace alone _through_ faith. *Justification* is by faith alone (though of course by a faith that is not alone).
@@oracleoftroy Fair enough, oracleoftroy.
Grace and peace to you.
Greetings in the Lord,
Actually, the 2002 Federal Vision conference was in at Auburn Avenue in Monroe, Louisiana.
Cheers
Great discussion but I think I need to drink an Ale after this.
Oatmeal stout. ;)
It’s all semantics, fantastic discussion 👌🏼
that was a great discussion that cleared up a lot of second-hand misinformation
This was a delight to watch.
Seeing my heros grow old is very sad.. but I'm blessed to have heard of them and blessed by them. May God continue to bless them.
They may not be halfway done yet, don't be discouraged
Love my brothers even though each of them are “cheeky” in their own way. The one quips about warmer weather and the other has a bouncy,breathy, giddiness over wordplay and I would give both of them a “holy kiss” and would want both of them as companions if facing imprisonments. What beautiful songs of worship in harmony would be heard from the darkness.
The Federal Vision conversation, more than any in are age, has become an occasion for the "Truly Reformed" to engage in vigorous navel-gazing rather than join the Church of Christ in marching upon the gates of Hell.
lol James White's face holding in laughter while Doug compares Baptist and Presbyterian Churches to night clubs. lol so priceless!
Excellent video!
Thinking it would be a excellent feature that each would be a guest on each other’s channel. Something like once a month.
Blessings
On the portion at the end of this discussion related to "reading outside your camp," I am reminded at RC Sproul who often mentioned the fact that he only attended liberal schools of theology and yet was still able to come to a conservative evangelical theology. He also mentioned that he could take from many theologians who were skeptics against conservative theological positions and put together an orthodox. work. He said he'd have to be very selective. But he could draw from the real expertise to get proper positions on key issues.
As a reformed Anglican I can fully agree with Wilson on his “Amber Ale” position… and I think Cranmer would agree. We are justified by Grace alone through Faith alone. Yes we have the sacraments but I don’t believe the sacraments play role in regeneration or salvation. I see my theology much closer to Wilson’s Westminster Presbyterianism than to the Roman church and I would say the same thing about the “Oatmeal Stout” people. There is not quite the difference that Wilson makes it out to be here.
The way they break down the differences between Presbyterian and Baptist beliefs on Baptism and the visible church is very beneficial indeed
Finally!! Hallelujah 🙌 very surprised James kept it together, praise God..you could feel he was on the back foot at the start, but, couldn't you just hear him going, "ohhhhh rightttt" lol 😂, getting clarity, listening instead of judgement, lol 😂 🙌 hallelujah 🙌 finally some maturing going on.. 👍
Oh, brother.
I have only been exposed to White through his many videos with Doug, and at conferences in Moscow, and have never seen any hint of not "keeping it together". seems a gracious man to me
@@alsteiner7602Yeah, agreed. I've seen accusations like this made against White before, but it is usually from anticalvinists who have no counterargument against his use of scripture and so are only left with name calling, thus they project their wounded pride and arrogance back onto White.
I’m neither Calvinist nor Cessationist but I love me some Doug Wilson! And Dr. White’s vest or whatever it is at “Operation Level: Gangsta”!
Jordan Orick It's a Coogi.
Greg I’m not alone! 😂
Greg Wow! That’s awesome! I’ve been training in Taekwondo for a couple of months and actually tomorrow I’m hoping I’ll be able to go sit in on and observe and Aikido class for the first time. I’m really intrigued by Aikido. I’m aware of the what many consider to be shortcomings but I still see certain benefits, at least enough to check it out anyways.
@Greg Oh OK. Gotcha. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experience.
Jordan Orick
Doug Wilson is great for sure
I don't know why everyone says "Oh, Doug Wilson is slick. Of course he will affirm classic reformed theology, but out of the other side of his mouth he will deny it."
Sinclair Ferguson makes a distinction by referring to a real born again person, walking with the Lord as "Christian believer". We all know that millions call themselves as "Christians" who are no more Christian than a Muslim. Paul refers to a Christian as "in Christ" or a version of that. Christian was originally a term that was derogatory. We are supposed to be followers of Christ, ie, Disciples.
Brethren, not one time have i ever heard you two Brothers speak and not been extremely Edified. Sorry, here: i have been Extremely Edified by GOD through these Brothers Every time they talk! Thanks, Praise, n Glory be to YHWH In YESHUA .
Great discussion!
Very helpful discussion. Blessings.
I still don’t understand the federal vision
Neither do they. lol
Nobody does! According to everything I've heard, it started out as a discussion, then went into many different tangents called "Federal Vision."
It seems that Does Wilson has been distancing himself from that term, since it has become meaningless, and he has to constantly explain himself.
Federal Vision was basically a conference and a movement with theological and sociopolitical motivations. Some forms of Reformed/Covenant Theology and postmillennialism, with a very conservative approach.
There's different folks in the camp. For instance, Doug Wilson is just Reformed. That's it. He's not like the Theopolis guys, which he says earlier in the video are basically Anglican or Lutheran in their theology (primarily concerning baptism). The Theopolis guys were/are FV, but in a different way than Wilson
As I understand it FV is not really a single strain of theology but basically a discussion that had many offshoots of varying amounts of orthodoxy. Like "evangelical" it is a term with very little concrete meaning. This is why it is important to listen carefully to what folks are actually saying rather than just looking for buzz words or cow bells.
Love it. Thanks for the dialogue.
Can someone summarize what Doug believes and what this who degrees with him believe? I can't follow it. It sounds like Doug is just affirming the basic gospel. Who disagrees that justification is final? I'm missing something.
Great discussion! Thank you for having such a candid conversation! The only thing I disagree with Pastor Wilson is the dislike of "covenant of works". The Westminster Confession of Faith uses covenant of works and defines what it is and how it contrasts with covenant of grace. As long as we have a biblical understanding of what the terms are, I don't think it's going to be confusing.
Wonderful conversation!!!
This is in response to "theendisnear17"s comment (see below)
[TheEndIsNear17
Thankfully Wilson is not. Because if he was, I would want no Part of Christianity. But thankfully the Apostles as Well as Jesus didn't act like him.]
What a strange and terribly hardhearted comment. If you are accusing Paster Wilson of not being a Christian, my response to that would be repent for we are forbidden to judge another's salvation.
As for wanting no part of Christianity if it includes the likes of Pastor Wilson, I say repent again for Christianity is not based on any human's approval but wholly on the Word of God as revealed in His Scriptures. God chooses who is elect, in accordance with His good mercies and grace, and not in accordance with the likes and dislikes of any man.
Brother, please read the Bible prayerfully and seek solid mentoring at your local church.
May God grant you clarity and mercy.
Very well said, brother
3:00 "We could have a troll contest."
James White laughs nervously and then reveals that he doesn't know what means. LOL
I love Dr White's willingness to go in depth on all kinds of issues and debate so many people who have different views than he does. My only critique would be the way he smugly dismisses infant baptism but never has anyone to speak about it from a non-Calvinist viewpoint. He's debated with other Calvinists but Calvinists who believe in what they call "paedobaptism" are not the same as discussing it with a confessional Lutheran or even an Anglican. Every time I hear him, and other Calvinists like Dr Wilson glibly dismiss infant baptism it's clear that they're not looking at a true sacramental understanding of baptism. He can't really claim to be a theological descendant of Luther if he's not at least willing to hear it defended from a confessional Lutheran perspective.
Wilson is a paedobaptist. What do you mean by Wilson glibly dismisses infant baptism?
@@gch8810 My bad
I'm not sure a solid covenental Westminster Confession holding Reformed Christian would give all that different an answer to the Anglican or Lutheran once all the language differences are unpacked. The biggest difference seems to me to be best explained in WCF 27.2 where Reformed Christian's have a habit of speaking in terms of the thing signified and Lutherans in terms of the sign. Neither Calvin nor Reformed Christians are Zwinglists (though Lutherans seem to forget that), and Lutherans in speaking of the sacrament arent claiming that the mere human ceremony where they get wet is the thing causing regeneration, as if baptism were purely a man thing and not a work of God.
If there is an important distinction that ought to be made, it keeps gets lost when people are too quick to divide over semantics.
Doug: "Baptists don't recognize one another at the liquor store". 😂😂😂😂😂
Doug: "That's because those hypocrites are too busy trans gendering America."
Yes, they (evanjellycals) agree, "but they have boards, mortgages, complications". LOL.
Just have to call out "wimpy"on those folks. Doug's explanation of his view of justification and sanctification is perfectly Reformed, Westminsterian, and biblical in every way! Why do people still accuse this man and treat him like a pariah? I can't think of any more robustly reformed man alive today. It's ridiculous.
This is why. contrast2.wordpress.com/2020/01/16/re-sumpter-white-wilson-on-federal-vision-baptists/
@@Leatherwoodoutdoors Yeah, an incorrect analysis of Wilson’s position.
Thank you gentlemen. Seriously; just "thank you."
Somehow people like Doug get lumped in a category that they don’t belong. If you really listen to him mostly what he says is stuff of a believer that is doing his best to explain complex things. There are many people that will attack him wrongly while promoting unbiblical teachings by addition or subtraction. You can tell the fruit of a teacher typically by listening more to see what they say. He has fruit.
I can’t see how you could call someone a brother and never have a debate with them. If that were the case all my brothers would be strangers to me, I wouldn’t know them at all.
I do not understand the insistence from guys like Doug Wilson and James White in saying that "anyone who is Biblically literate knows that 'works' in Pauline language is a bad thing". That does not accurately characterize Pauline doctrine in any way, shape, or form.
I'm sure they would dispute this and try to nuance their position if pushed, but when I hear them speak on this subject, they present themselves as being hostile to "righteous works" in an almost antinomian in nature.
Paul is very pro-works:
Ephesians 2:10 (NET) For we are his workmanship, having been created in Christ Jesus for good works that God prepared beforehand so we may do them.
Romans 2:7 (NET) eternal life to those who by perseverance in good works seek glory and honor and immortality,
Titus 2:7 (NET) showing yourself to be an example of good works in every way. In your teaching show integrity, dignity,
Titus 3:8 (NET) This saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on such truths, so that those who have placed their faith in God may be intent on engaging in good works. These things are good and beneficial for all people.
What they mean is that in Romans 3:20 - 4:6; 9:11 - 11:6 (and any corresponding soteriological Pauline passages), "works" as it characterizes "the works of the law" are presented as insufficient to merit salvation. Paul does not call them "bad", in fact, he even takes the time to correct that misconception (Romans 7:7). Paul never refers to works as "bad" or "evil". He simply affirms that righteous works before one's new birth by God's grace through faith are entirely insufficient to evoke, effect, or merit salvation.
In other words, Biblical soteriology is not based on meritorious works, but righteous works are not bad. And they are the necessary result of true salvation.
I'm not condemning these two, but I am frustrated by their insistence to use unBiblical and misleading terminology that has, in fact, produced an antinomian theology in many evangelical churches. This kind of lazy theological talk is the gateway to the apostate hyper-grace and prosperity gospels.
My two favorites! Yes! So much awesomeness!
James white loved being able to quote that citation 😏
Excellent treatment here
Here's the link to Brandon Adams original post, for those who'd like the context: contrast2.wordpress.com/2019/12/03/federal-vision-baptists/
Also, Doug Wilson's response: dougwils.com/the-church/s16-theology/heidelfog.html
“Tricksy Dougsie” 🤣
This was great
I know righ
I am glad this happened. Allowing people to explain what they believe without putting words in their mouth is vitally important.
Good discussion. Two godly men
Is there a video/audio of the so-called "sitting on couches that are on fire"? I believe that Doug would have survived the fiery furnace by God's grace but not sure if THAT video exists...
Haha, by god's grace we won't have to find out. But yes you can watch the No Quarter November 2018 trailer here:
ua-cam.com/video/W0ITIMjWHP8/v-deo.html
and the NQN 2019 trailer here:
ua-cam.com/video/rpz7IuVsPpc/v-deo.html
Great Video!! I love you both,
This is like an episode of Power Rangers when the White and Green Ranger came out together.
This should not be complicated, Jeremiah 31 says that God puts his "LAW" in your inward parts. Through Jesus we as gentiles are grafted in to receive this blessing.
There is no context for this video. The discussion starts off talking about some event or show down or article that put Doug in a hot seat, but what exactly happened?
Doug Wilson was part of a conference a long time ago and the title of it was “federal vision.” They emphasized covenantal continuity and the objectivity of the covenant and the sacraments. Lots of “reformed” people took issue with the way they worded some things and with the fact that they affirmed the passive obedience of Christ and questioned His active obedience being applied to us. Some people out there have taken it too far from what I hear but most of the controversy consists of many reformed pastors being offended by basic reformed teaching straight out of the confessions due to their own ignorance of the subjects.
I would recommend listing to the videos about federal vision on the “Reformation Red Pill” channel. That’s basically where I figured out what was really going on. I think one was just called federal vision and the other one was titled something like “is Doug Wilson a heretic?”
Pretty interesting conversations.
Good lesson regarding spending an inordinate amount of time defending oneself, james.
Good conversation.
I love the nightclub analogy!😂🤣
Thank you.
Why doesn't Doug Wilson debate R. Scott Clark?
Thank you!