Catholics & Salvation | Doug Wilson and James White | Sweater Vest Dialogues
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- Опубліковано 6 бер 2020
- Pastor Doug Wilson and Dr. James White discuss Catholicism and Salvation in this episode of The Sweater Vest Dialogues.
Enjoying this video? Order Doug's book "Papa Don't Pope" today!
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The Sweater Vest Dialogues are presented by Canon Press.
If you keep making these, we the public will come to expect more.
Kyle Hessler I second this.
This is correct.
One a month is the plan for now :)
Canon Press That’s racist. Once a week will be less racist.
@@CanonPress that's sexist. Once a week will be less sexist.
I love how the camera goes to White's face whenever Wilson says something weird.
What did he say that was weird ?
@@seanmoran6510 Saying that the author of the Gospel of Mark (John Mark) is a proto-Judaizer
@@seanmoran6510 15:20
I so deeply love these two brothers in Christ and am grateful they are taking the time to do these conversations on such important theological issues. I also appreciate their modeling of Christian brotherly love and fair, dignified, scholarly dialogue on issues they often do not align on. God bless you, your families and your ministries!
They're called heretics according to St Ignatius of Antioch who was actually a follower of St John and ordained Bishop of Antioch by Peter
IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH
“Be not deceived, my brethren: If anyone follows a maker of schism [i.e., is a schismatic], he does not inherit the kingdom of God; if anyone walks in strange doctrine [i.e., is a heretic], he has no part in the passion [of Christ]. Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: For there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of his blood; one altar, as there is one bishop, with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons” (Letter to the Philadelphians 3:3-4:1 [A.D. 110]).
@@GP-dp4mr thank you these guys are in error
@@GP-dp4mr Apostolic church: The Lord Jesus is its only Builder and head. The Gates of Hell shall not Prevail against his church. It is made up of Born Again Christians who are in Christ and Sanctified by the truth of God's word. mat 16-18 and john 17
Apostate church: churches, denominations and individuals who departed from the true church or departed from the faith of the Apostles 1 john 2:19, 1 tim 4:1
Roman Catholics and Christians have differences:
1. A different Church
2. A different Authority
3. A different Jesus
4. A different gospel
5. A different Mary
6. A different view of sin
7. A different path to Eternity
This is a great discussion. I am a Protestant but gleaned a great deal from "The Everlasting Man" and "orthodoxy" by Chesterton.
Love these dialogues. May I suggest that their videos be a split-screen of the two of them instead of alternating shots? I think it would help in providing more context to their responses to each other when we see their reaction as the other speaks. Thanks.
Eric Badong That’s a great idea.
Great idea! I second this
And it would be an easier edit ;)
Yes, this would be great.
Eric Badong Great suggestion Eric
Haha James face when Doug said “smells like Jesus”
Jeff Durbin introduced me to both Douglas Wilson and James White... this is like watching Jeff's dad and stepdad have a conversation at thanksgiving
Ha!😂😅🤣
Hahahah
From my understanding Durbin doesn’t talk to his dad. His elderly parents are hurt by Jeff’s terrible actions
@@catfish1972100 terrible actions?
Lol😂😂
Doug. I know it’s 3 years later but these discussions are so beneficial to hear. I could binge these for hours. Make more now!!!
Really enjoying these videos, thank you Brother James and Brother Wilson, God bless you both, Soli Deo Gloria
Great conversation!!! For the Glory of HIS Name 🙌
I appreciate two grown men having a mature and well-balanced conversation. I pray I would also grow in my patience and charity with others for the goal of presenting the gospel to others as well.
Me too, they are both very mature and at peace.
Oh my I have been looking forward to this.
I've been waiting for a video like this for so long. Thanks so much! It has given me a lot to think about.
More! More! More! Please continue this series.
My dear Brother Doug, I NEVER have to look up your vocabulary. I, like you, speak English. That is one of the very satisfying things about your broadcasts and writings; savory, satisfying and joyful things, they are. Many thanks.
Two of my most treasured brothers. You men keep the content coming. You’re leading by example as ministers on how to engage fellow believers that have different opinions and convictions, but ultimately both holding to the true gospel of Jesus Christ.
System Revolt yep. Two of our family favorite theologians. 😂
ua-cam.com/video/L14UNjaZJm8/v-deo.html
Ed B what? Dude come on. Seriously, don’t make accusations like that. If something like that was even a thing. He’d be way more successful and would have way more power according to sudo truther narrative. Spend more time reading the word of God, praying, and get in a bible believing faithful church where you can be held accountable and have good fellowship. While I am grateful for the truther community on a lot of levels. When accusations are thrown out like this that are verifiably false. It makes the whole thing look stupid.
White's face when Wilson says, "It's spiritual wisdom that smells like Jesus." 15:20
Awesome! I went back and looked at that, super! 🤣 Expressions like that make me think: It may Jesus, but that might mean it the Jesus of the Bible.
Keep these dialogues coming in future please, if God works in you both to be willing and able :) profoundly edifying interactions from two fatherly figures in Christ whom I deeply respect. Much love from South Africa
I read Chesterton. Even subscribed to The Chesterton Review for many years. I skip over some stuff but most of what he says (90+ %) makes me think and is really wonderful.
God bless you both and God bless Mr. Chesterton. I, for one, cannot read his works without seeing Jesus on almost every page. “Angels can fly because they can take themselves lightly.” GK Chesterton was light hearted. Far more zealous for his God than for the Roman Gospel. He was practically self taught and thus self deceived. Praise God he wasn’t saved because of his intellect and saved in spite of his sin. Blessed is the man whose sins the Lord will never hold against him.
The Catholic Church is the One True Church founded by Jesus Christ on Peter as the Rock
Most evangelicals are self taught or go to fake seminaries.
Amen!
@@bastionofthefaith92 I hope this isn’t being said by a man who calls Pope Francis, “Holy Father”, with a straight face.
I love it when you both talk!
I was really edified about this brotherly discussion. Keep it coming.
Just amazing, very edifying
To Doug’s point about being edified & offended simultaneously while reading Chesterton, that’s exactly how I feel listening to these two lol. God bless them.
Same here. I’m my case edified when James white spoke and the opposite when Doug Wilson did.
Great conversation, it's nice to hear other, informed perspectives on who is and who isn't rightly considered a Christian.
These are fantastic.
If by fantastic you mean moronic and juvenile then yes
beautiful! Thanks my very much older brothers!
It’s stunning how fast tacos derailed this conversation. 😂
HA! Yes, Doug's response was so funny. That discussion highlighted their difference in personality.
Righhhht
Doug’s explanation of intellectual workarounds sounds like it’s more gracious to the intellectual Catholic than the simple-minded Catholic. Not saying the argument is wrong because of that, only that it sounds like an inversion of what James might say about simple Catholics who trust Jesus and don’t really get Catholic doctrine.
I think that was precisely whites point. However, what i haven't seen in the comments is that they are both right and wrong. The answer is so plainly directly in the middle of the 2. I love both these guys and respect them more than i can type here, but sometimes smart guys are too smart for their own good which is whites point basically and i think he makes the same mistake here
He wasn't really saying that. Doug is talking about the kind of "simple Catholic" who has a statue of Mary in their home and pray to it multiple times a day, not someone who has a simple Christian faith but attends Catholic church. As someone in Texas with Catholic family members I have seen a lot of both, they are both "simple" but very different. One has a simple faith in the Gospel and doesn't understand or buy into Catholic dogma, the other has a simple faith in Catholic dogma and doesn't understand the Gospel.
I will say that I do love the respect that these guys hold for one another!
But if you pray to any but God then you are in error of the Bible and in danger of not knowing the true relationship it takes for salvation!
These are good. Been a lot of Protestant/Catholic dialogues lately, which is what brought me here.
That was me, I was that very Protestant who held the Westminster confession and the Protestant faith in such high regard but was actually well and truly rotten and lost until Christ saved me by his grace and through faith in him. Hallelujah!
Amazing! What were the things that you immediately saw about your life that made you think you weren't saved, after your eyes had been open to the gospel?
I'm not sure what the Westminster confession is? It sounds like a high church denomination. If so then, it sounds like you were doing the rituals, but just going through the motions until the gospel really came to life for you one day.
@@saintejeannedarc9460 The Westminster Confession of Faith, as well as the Westminster Larger and Shorter Catechisms are the Confessional Standards of Presbyterianism.
As a recently converted Catholic myself, I enjoyed this discussion and often enjoy listening to Doug Wilson quite a bit. I think Doug is certainly among God's favored children and will have a place in Heaven, but I disagree with aspects of his theology and his understanding of history. But I would love a restoration of Christendom with the inclusion of the various faithful denominations of Christianity. How about this? I will pray for your everlasting salvation, and I will hope that you will do the same for me.
As I Catholic, if Protestants believe that reformed theology was true, I would actually be offended if Protestants DIDN’T try and convert me. I am much more aligned with Southern Evangelical baptists that with liberal Episcopalians. I hope Doug and White win the war against liberalism.
@@mosesking2923 Reformed theology is not Calvinism. Reformed theology is best described as the Five Solas. I'm a Provisionist, not a Calvibist. While I have concerns about some of the stuff in Catholicism, I am in no way arrogant enough to question your personal salvation. If you're pitting your faith in Christ alone, then that is the only that ultimately matters. Do some or a lot of Catholics not do this? Probably. Do some or a lot of Calvinist not do it as well? Probably. If I was going to 'convert' you it would be to trust in Christ alone, not join a denomination. I personally agree with CS Lewis, who was also not a Calvinist.
Love you both as you love God and His unchanging Truth. Don't ever believe you aren't appreciated mucho.
For me this is a very timely subject. Very few understand the imputed/infused grace conundrum.
sweater vest dialogues is BEYOND genius of a brand!!! LOL
"Did we not prophesy in your name?...."
Explain what you mean.
@@anthonygarcia3960 I can’t speak for the original commenter. But if you read that passage of Matthew 7, you will notice that the people whom Jesus tells to depart, are pointing to their own good works. Which is related to Catholicism because, Catholicism teaches a works based salvation.
When I stand before God, I won’t point to my own “good works”. All I have is Christ and His perfect work on my behalf.
Keep it going!
Thank you!
That was great, thank you!
Love this talk. Keep them coming! People need to see that two brothers in Christ, who do so much for the faith, can disagree and not kick each other out of the kingdom
love doug wilson and james white sounds like debates i have had i in general take doug wilson line on the issue.
That was informative fun. 😄
49:50!!!! You nailed me! You described my initial attraction to Orthodoxy, although not in the way I would’ve. If there were a strong Anglican/ Episcopalian communion in the US, I wouldn’t have ever gone that route.
So smells-and-bells and emotional mysticism mean more to you that the truths of Scripture?
@@gregb6469 "mystical, experiential, smells 'n bells" was the phrase he used. These things, in Anglo Catholicism, go together with the truths of Scripture. They are Scriptural. Try taking all references to union with God, experiences of God, and incense and joyful sounds out of the Scripture and you will have a very much slimmer Bible. I guess that by "strong" Werd Nnam was meaning historic Anglo Catholicism, contrasted with the lamentable-and un-Scriptural state of the TEC denomination.
@@gregb6469 No, Church history was of the utmost importance to me, I became obsessed with the episcopacy in my last year of seminary. I could no longer be in a Church without an Episcopal form of church government.
@@anselman3156 Yeah, that’s what I meant.
@@drewmann856 -- You didn't go back in time far enough. There is not a word about the monarchical bishop system of church government in the NT, so your obsession about it is not wise.
Love the taco time crispy burritos.. And the video as a whole.
How much mud and gravel can you pour into lemonade, before it's no longer lemonade?
"A little leaven leavens the whole lump."
"Strait is the gate, and narrow is the way that leads unto life."
As a former Catholic these discussions are very helpful to my understanding of the differences
I’m a Protestant to Catholic convert... may I ask your story? If you’re interested, I did a video on here about mine ☺️
@@GratiaPrima_ All I care to say Melissa is that I discovered through God’s Grace the beautiful truth of the pure gospel- saved by grace alone- through faith alone and in Christ alone.
@@GratiaPrima_ that boggles my mind.
@@GratiaPrima_ Welcome to the true faith Melissa! we are happy to have you. Viva Cristo Rey! ✝️🙏
@@odanobunaga7584 You do know "Viva Cristo Rey" is a catholic phrase right, made famous by the Cristeros ?
Nice podcast.
I'll normally can't stand White but I'll be honest I kind of like this discussion. I side with Wilson but there is a humility, warmth and respect here that I enjoyed.
ua-cam.com/video/L14UNjaZJm8/v-deo.html
I’m a Catholic and think both of these men are well meaning. They think I’m a semi-Pelagian. I think they are semi-Nestorians.
What do you mean by semi-Nestorian? (Honest question)
Catholic soteriology is Augustinian.
Lol Catholics can be both. Y’all are a mixed camp.
They aren’t semi Nestorian. They are just Nestorians and have strong Gnostic impulses. I’m Orthodox!
@@EricAlHarb How's that? There is nothing in their conversation that suggests that.
It never ceases to amaze me that in all these years of debating Catholics and for all his supposed study of the Catholic Faith James White still peddles in the falsehood that indulgences are somehow a mechanism for salvation 45:52
It isn’t and never has been. It is a means of remitting the punishment of sin. The Catholic Gospel is the Gospel of St Paul. Trent’s formulation is soundly Biblical whereas forensic and imputation is foreign to St Paul. This one and the same Catholic Gospel is the Gospel of the early ages of the Church the one of the Fathers. They had salvation without a man made gospel of 1500 years later.
Who in the first 1500 years of the Church taught this idea of forensic imputation? Or of faith alone as taught by Luther? Name one Church Father, Saint, Doctor, theologian, etc who taught or even hinted at it that could justify Luther’s doctrine?
Listening to two Protestants discuss the Catholic Church is like listening to the women on The View. My apologies to The View for the comparison.
What kind of mental gymnastics enables you to claim Paul preached "infused grace?"
Gerald Nichols
The righteousness of God was always understood for the first 1500 years of the Church has an instilling in us at justification sanctifying grace.
It is who needs to justify your “mental gymnastics” and explain how all of a sudden Luther discovered this. Was the Church without the Gospel for 1500 years?
You tell me.
Exactly right. Ex Prot here, converted by ONE Latin Mass & A LOT of “UA-cam Catechesis”, lol. Calvinism was named after a MAN. Not a doctrine Christ started. Heretical & blasphemous. RC Sproul knew nothing, John MacArthur knows nothing & Todd Friel with Wretched (and that’s just what it is) knows nothing. These wolves misrepresent Catholicism.
So… superstition. Got it. But… in all seriousness, I’ve heard White say that indulgences aid in reducing temporal punishment for sin. I’m almost sure of it. 🤔. If I come across that talk, I’ll post it here.
Show me in the Bible where it’s faith plus works that saves you? Spare me your horrible twisting of “faith without works is dead” that simply means that true saving faith will bear fruit of a changed life. Many church fathers thought exactly what reformed theology teaches, especially Augustine. The current dogmas of Rome are unbiblical and have been developed over time. Marian dogmas; papacy, all inventions of men hundreds and hundreds of years after Christ. Romes doctrine of justification is nowhere near what Paul taught. Reformed theology was going back to the Bible and exegeting scripture. Faith alone; in Christ Alone. It is a gift of God, period. Rome teaches a false gospel that can’t save you and few in the early church taught.
I’m an instant Doug Wilson fan. What a WAY this man has with words!
Must watch this later. I respect and love James White but as for Wilson I don't know that much about him, he seems to know his stuff.
You caught up yet?
Dr White’s face at the revelation that there is a Taco Time in Moscow is tremendous! Lol
The point of Dough about Chesterton is Chesterton acts like a genuine Christian but unaware that the Gospel light are not found in his confession of faith
This seems to be a significant event in the life of Scott Hahn as well
Thank you for the doing fleshing out Dr. White by bringing Dough Wilson
From the Philippines
The Green Ranger and White Range come out in the same episode, again.
Julio Rodriguez - i think you will become the South Texas “Tex-Mex” Chesterton who whom swim the Tiber in reverse!
Doug in lycra.... That might be a mortal sin.
Remember that "Sola Salvation" is not one of the five Solas of the Reformation. Once you get saved, it's a hard journey toward sanctification.
And I second Eric Badong’s request: adopt split-screen, a la Blogging Heads!
I’m a Catholic and I do find these types of videos interesting. Reminds me of the old joke, “two baptists are taking walks and meet paths while crossing a bridge.”
Enjoyable but was hoping that you would touch on Wilson’s opinion on Tolkien’s salvation?
Purely a personal preference on my part as I find Chesterton very heavy( sleep inducing!) reading but dearly love Tolkien’s work, especially the Silmarillion and anything else about the First Age, Gondolin, etc.
Chesterton? Sleep inducing??
This is strange!
Now I need to find out what Taco Time is and try a crisp beef burrito!
Love your vids please keep em coming! Should do an appearance on gospel simplicity
The most valuable thing I got from this video was that there is a taco time in Moscow Idaho!!
As an adherent of the preponderance of calvinism, methinks much of john Calvin's overall praxis is probably responded to with similar gymnastics by a calvinistic believer as wilson attributes to chesterton's gymnastics re Roman Catholicism.
Both handsome men. I love sweaters!
"I had no idea they thrived in cold climates." Witty, James.
Doug is doing the equivalent of someone 100 years from now. Reading Jordan Peterson stuff and saying that he has a high confidence level that Peterson is in heaven because of what he got out of him.
Precisely because we trust Jesus and His commandments we believe in the teachings of the Catholic Church
Which command of Jesus told a Christian to pray to Mary?
@@jeffkessel669
We are to pray for one another. We can also ask the saints in Heaven to pray for us since God is the God of the living, not of the dead.
“Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working”
Notice how this quotes relates to the sacrament of confession. When it comes to knowing certain truths Jesus didn`t say explicitly, He said some of the things we`ll get to know through the Holy Ghost:
"I still have much to tell you, but you cannot yet bear to hear it. However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come. He will glorify Me by taking from what is Mine and disclosing it to you".
And thus st Peter got to know Christians don`t have to follow the ritual laws of the Jews, st John discovered that Jesus is the Logos for which and through which everything was created, Jesus also didn`t explicitly say that God is triune but it`s obvious from His teachings about the Holy Ghost and all Christians agree. It`s also certain that His mother is a great saint in Heaven and God granted her the fullness of grace:
"And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women"
“From now on will all ages call me blessed”.
Because of that we know that her prayers are powerful, thus christians prayed for Mary`s intercession already in the 1st century:
www.earlychristians.org/the-devotion-to-the-virgin-mary-in-the-early-church/
Y'all need some warmer lighting on Pastor Wilson.
27:38 - Me, whenever I see White and Wilson engage in dialogue
28:32 - Heh, that was great.
29:47, 30:10, 38:52 - Puritans and Chesterton
30:58 - CS Lewis and multiple rooms of Christianity
32:03, 33:07, 33:26 - Does Catholicism include Lewis’ view of multiple rooms?
36:21 - spiritual light and confrontation
37:02, 37:39 - peace, mortal sin, and Rome
37:52 - assurance
42:45 - BB Warfield
48:41 - necessity vs sufficiency of grace
52:47, 53:25 - assumption of evangelism or fellowship
Its dangerous seeing light in someone as Charismatic also say this too! They sit under someone who utter these revelation to them tell them about vision tell them they went to heaven and god spoke secrets to them. And they get this high moment being there and come out believing its true? I know an evangelical pastor who gave a strong testimony of going to a catholic church and having this high movement he never had in a evangelical church. He is now a strong supporter of Catholics theology cause of this high movement he had.
And then Muslim say they have a strong experience in their religion as well as other religions does that make their spiritual insight gospel then?
in the same logic of dr.white , Augustine isn't saved cuz he believed in other gospel by believing in justification by works like roman catholics. Read his work "Of Faith and Works"
Did not Scott Hahn had this tone with Dough when he was transitioning from Evangelicalism to Roman Catholicism?
All I've ever read of Chesterton is some of his Father Brown mystery stories (which I enjoyed), so I can't offer an opinion about Chesterton's present next-world abode.
When I was a seriously devout Catholic, years ago, I wouldn't have thought of using Chesterton as a sort of trophy of the RCC being "the one true, etc." That would have been "beneath" my dignity so to speak.
But I have seen Catholics that do seem to make capital mentioning him when defending their religion.
Conclusion: Wilson thinks Chesterton may be saved despite his Catholicism due to his enlightened thought
Question while listening: Can a person who is not truly born-again have wisdom of scripture (the ability to rightly teach)? I think of Jesus' parables and am inclined to think the answer is no?
There is no private interpretation of Scripture 2nd Peter says. That’s why Christ gave us a Church & magisterium guided by the Holy Ghost to protect Christianity from error & heresy.
To me the obvious distinction between those in the RCC who are saved and those who are not is the issue of pride. There are many who are persuaded of the dogmas of Rome by clever arguments but who at the end of the day just want to be faithful to Christ… and who come to believe that submission to the RCC is their duty. They are saved. There are others who are persuaded of the dogmas of Rome because of the self-righteousness it gives to them. They are in grave danger. But that is true of any denomination.
As a Catholic I always find it weird when people assume we are putting our faith in the Catholic Church, or in Mary herself. We are directly praying to Jesus Christ alone, that is where our faith is. Do you really think Jesus will be like "don't include my mother in your thoughts at all you idolater!" The Catholic church IS continuing apostolic tradition directly passed on from the apostles, how can we just ignore this institution that Jesus founded for us? And no, we are definitely not following Pope Francis. I wish Archbishob Vigano was the Pope though, but everything happens for a reason... maybe the Catholic Church needs Francis at this time for some complex reasons that we cannot see at this moment.
“And it came to pass, as he spoke these things, a certain woman from the crowd, lifting up her voice, said to him: Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck. ”
And Jesus said: “Yea, rather, blessed are they that hear the word and keep it” Luke 11:27-28
Jesus does not will for us to praise Mary as such, he wants us to hear the word of God, and live by it. Praising Mary as Mediatrix, Advocate, Intercessor, “All-Holy”, “immaculate”, is not Christian.
It sure is awesome witnessing this Knight-level sparring. Two Mighty men of the Faith sharpening each-others' Broadswords.
Doug's problem is that he's forgetting that even the unconverted can (at least for awhile) teach and live right. There have been all sorts of teachers that we thought were converted that have fallen away and shown they were not. I can look back at Joshua Harris's books or Ravi Zacharias or others and see truth they proclaimed really well. Discernment is not just knowing right from wrong, it's knowing the difference between right and almost right.
So basically if you would like to know Doug Wilson’s view on this read the last chapter of C.S Lewis’s The Last Battle.
I wish Wilson would be specific about what it is the G.K.Chesterton has said and written in the past that gives him so much confidence in his salvation so I don’t have to go and read all of Chesterton’s stuff.
Lets not be lazy and rely too much on people.
Youd have to read Chestertons stuff to understand it mate
I'm over halfway and very much enjoying this, and thinking of Chesterton being spiritually vivifying. Doug has probably read this - from "The Ballad of White Horse", where King Alfred (in disguise) tells the Norse princes that they can keep their pagan triumphs:
"That on you is fallen the shadow,
And not upon the Name;
That though we scatter and though we fly,
And you hang over us like the sky,
You are more tired of victory,
Than we are tired of shame.
"That though you hunt the Christian man
Like a hare on the hill-side,
The hare has still more heart to run
Than you have heart to ride.
"That though all lances split on you,
All swords be heaved in vain,
We have more lust again to lose
Than you to win again.
"Your lord sits high in the saddle,
A broken-hearted king,
But our king Alfred, lost from fame,
Fallen among foes or bonds of shame,
In I know not what mean trade or name,
Has still some song to sing;
"Our monks go robed in rain and snow,
But the heart of flame therein,
But you go clothed in feasts and flames,
When all is ice within;
"Nor shall all iron dooms make dumb
Men wondering ceaselessly,
If it be not better to fast for joy
Than feast for misery.
"Nor monkish order only
Slides down, as field to fen,
All things achieved and chosen pass,
As the White Horse fades in the grass,
No work of Christian men.
"Ere the sad gods that made your gods
Saw their sad sunrise pass,
The White Horse of the White Horse Vale,
That you have left to darken and fail,
Was cut out of the grass.
"Therefore your end is on you,
Is on you and your kings,
Not for a fire in Ely fen,
Not that your gods are nine or ten,
But because it is only Christian men
Guard even heathen things.
"For our God hath blessed creation,
Calling it good. I know
What spirit with whom you blindly band
Hath blessed destruction with his hand;
Yet by God's death the stars shall stand
And the small apples grow."
So were catholics before luther not-saved? That would be proposterous.
Well seeing as not every Christian before Luther was a catholic.
@@theneverending9319 right,the others were Eastern orthodox
Catholicism was not always as corrupt as it is and has been since Luther's day. It really began to spiral out of control from the time of the Crusades onwards and reached its zenith of corruption and heresy around the time of the Reformation.
Just as preposterous as nobody but Noah and his family being saved from the flood? Or only the Jews for many hundreds of years? It cannot be denied that salvation was ONLY for those who who heard of the Lord from the Hebrews before the time of Christ. God only revealed Himself to His claimed people. Is it unfair of Him to not give revelation to all people of the world at the same time? No.
@@douglasmcnay644 This is absurd. So for most of the 1500 year period (or from wherever you start your restorationist "great apostasy" when the Church fell away a la Mormonism to the time of Luther) between Christ and the Reformation, there just weren't any "saved" individuals?
You essentially are saying that the Church ceased to exist, that the Holy Spirit, promised to the Church by Christ to "lead it into all truth", instead led that entire Church into abject heresy and idolatry for centuries, if not a millennium or more. That makes Christ a liar, and makes the Holy Spirit out to be an evil figure who cares not for the Church He was entrusted. It's not that this is unfair, it's that it is contrary to the basic goodness of God and the promises of Christ.
Another thought if they don't have faith in the church then they can't accept chapter 15 of the book of Acts the Council of Jerusalem
Christ alone is sufficient. Not Grace as necessary, but is
all-sufficient.
Reading Chesterton is an exercise in saying, "Yeah, that's an amazing insight, and it works so much better if you'd just understand and accept Calvinism/ Reformed theology." It's bloody frustrating, as somebody who has read more than forty of his books and many twice.
God predestined it
@@dustinlattimore7336 I mean, yes, but what's the point of saying that?
Calvinism is false as day.
@@eveningdoubt5981 I honestly don't understand what you mean.
We are saved by correct doctrine because God leads us in all TRUTH
If Roman Catholic doctrine is biblical
What was the purpose of the Reformation?
Humorously, I'm only familiar with Esolen by his translation of the Divine Comedy.
I with Rich on the sweaters.
Pastor Doug Wilson, the spiritual happiness that Chesterton had, sprung fourth from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which is made possible by the victory of Christ on the cross. The victory on the cross reconciled all of mankind to God. Now reconciled man can again eat of the fruit (sacraments) of the tree of life (cross). Through the sacraments established by Christ, we receive forgiveness, salvation, eternal life, spiritual strength, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Through the sacraments not only are we righteous in name but in actuality.
Next, was Mother Teresa truly saved? I hear Doug Wilson's explanation. But he would have a very hard time rejecting sacrificial Christ-like loving people of RC and even non Christian faiths as unbelievers. If you include Chesterson, you cannot stop at Chesterson. Yeah, he appealed to your intellect because you are an intellectually advanced person. Mtr Teresa appealed to millions over her Christ-like giving. If you are going to put the cart before the horse, disregard what people say they themselves believe, then you cannot limit the "cart" or "spiritual light" to only the area of life you are most interested in, ie books and intellect, when studying others. You should also account for the "spiritual light" you see in the lives lived, and the graciousness displayed in others' lives.
@KTTGHMTJWYCBLAC Doesn't look like it. He is extending the argument for Chesterson to others who say they believe in one thing, but then live seemingly in spite of that. He asking why the logic Douglas is using for Chersterson, can't be used for someone like Mother Teresa. It is hypothetical and a condemning question towards the logic used by Douglas.
@@RomingAroundTown, what were the intellectual fruits of Mother Teresa? What were the pious works of Chesterton? If we are to know these people we must look at the collection of their works and not cherry pick those we prefer.
I used to be a Ravi Zacharias fan. He referenced Chesterson and Lewis quite often. I gave up of Ravi because we had some big issues after I realize somethings about the bible and saw he was deceived. Smarts and logic can make for same bad doctrine the kind that keep ppl believing in things that may keep them from true salvation. I know God is the judge of who is saved and who is not. But he tells us how to be saved, in rather specific terms, what you need to believe so you do not believe in vain.
Check out the books “Apostolic Fathers” and “The Pope The Keys and The Chair” I love these discussions especially as a catholic looking in. God Bless you both!
I wonder how they would respond to virtually none of the early Church fathers believing this way?
@@ryanpope7891 You mean nobody believing in the Sola doctrines or Assurance until the Reformers invented them in the 16th century?
mcmemmo
Mfw when the Fathers always upheld the Roman Bishop’s infallibility...oh wait..they didn’t
MedžuSlovjansky They held the apostolic succession and tradition, and people tend to forget there is different types of Catholics. It’s only when the pope speaks ex cathedra, not everything he says. And when he speaks about doctrine it’s revised by the rest of the bishops.
Ricardo Razo
Sure they held to apostolic succession, but not one of them believed that the Roman Bishop was the head of the Church, who can rule inerrantly on dogma, as believed by RCs today
I gotta find a taco time now lol I’m a Taco Bell man myself.
Doug, there are at times when you smile you resemble Robin Williams 😂😂😂
Gospel means “Good News”.
So Why then are Catholics charged and convicted of not having the Good News of Jesus Christ? Wouldn’t that be judging their hearts?
The real question is whether protestants are saved ...
Not sure I follow? We are saved by grace-
The gospel is good news.
It needs to be the correct gospel.
@@Freedomfortruth90 The Second Person of the Trinity came to earth, took on humanity in the flesh, lived, suffered and died for our sins out of love for us, so that all of creation could be restore back to original justice as it was before the Fall…. This is the good new.
My mother, Catholic, places her trust in Jesus Christ. She is saved, though she wouldn’t use that term. She sees a distinction between her faith in Christ and the teachings of the Catholic Church. I think my theology is more correct than hers, but oh, if only I emulated Christ-likeness as she does.
I have to admit brothers that I enjoyed your conversation. I read mere Christianity years ago great book. I'm am a Christian but I'm of the Anglo Catholic tradition. I'm reading Alister McGrath Christian Theology an introduction. For me this is a live changing book. I was originally Roman Catholic but became a Christian through Pentecostals. I left Pentecostalism because of confusion and lack of sound doctrine. Pentecostals make issues of non issues. I still have fellowship with Pentecostals. I think Francis is a nightmare for the Catholic church and will definitely cause a split in the church. The cracks are already there. He should be called pope judas the first. God bless you brothers in Christ. When I say God I mean Father Son and Holy Spirit.
Anton Ralph You’re not an Anglo Catholic. You’re just a Protestant. Anglo Catholics are those Anglicans who are in communion with Rome and who still use the Book of Common Prayer as their basic template for Mass, with the required replacement of the defective canon with the appropriate Roman Canon.
Anton Ralph. As I listened to this, I was thinking, I am glad to be Anglo Catholic, that is, I believe historic Anglicanism to be a branch of the one holy catholic and apostolic church, whose other branches are the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox. The fact that many in the leadership of Anglicanism, Roman Catholicism and E.Orthodoxy depart from the Scriptural and Catholic Faith does not mean that all adherents of these communions are non-Christian. The Calvinists are a rather exclusivist group, and their main contention is against the idea that it is possible for one who has been saved to actually fall away. As the commentator below reveals, there are misleading definitions of what it means to be Anglo Catholic. For a true understanding of the term, I suggest reading such people as E.B.Pusey, Henry Parry Liddon, Alexander Penrose Forbes, Charles Chapman Grafton, Darwell Stone and Eric Mascall. Anglo Catholics vary in their views concerning the modernist papacy, and I guess some of those who have gone over to the ordinariate will be just as disconcerted as R.C. traditionalists with the current "pope".
p.s. Anglo Catholics have normally viewed "Dissenters" such as Calvinists as Christians despite their not having orders through the tactile Apostolic Succession. They can count all persons baptized in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost as Christian brethren, even if erring.
@@anselman3156 Thank you and God bless you brother.
@@antonralph6947 I am pleased to hear from a fellow Anglo Catholic in UA-cam land. We are not too numerous, I think. God bless you too, brother. Be confident in our godly heritage. Eric Mascall's book "Christ, the Christian and the Church" has recently been reprinted, and is a good read. His Gifford lectures The Openness of Being can be read online. All good stuff. Liddon is excellent and can be found in Internet Archive. Check out "The Divinity of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" I do some readings from this on my channel by way of introduction.