6:28 MotoGP (for once) is ahead of F1 in this regard, as they have introduced icons on the timing tower just as described. MotoGP, lacking pit stops, has a "long lap" penalty which is an extra strip of asphalt on the outside of a corner, that riders are forced to take. This is roughly equivalent to a time penalty and it's worked well so far. They have a gray triangle with a '!' symbol when a rider has a track limits warning, a yellow circle with a '!' symbol when someone has an untaken penalty, and a magnifying glass when a rider is under investigation. Nifty system imo.
MotoGP has a consistency advantage because they run on two narrow tyres, so they can use sensors to detect track limits, and even then it’s very easy to spot track limits due to the tyres. And the long-lap penalty is only 1.5-2.5 seconds extra, it’s enough for atleast Moto2 and Moto3 to drop you 10-15 spots due to much closer racing.
I don’t know about Europe but event staffs are low paying jobs. Expecting those people to handle abusive people and act like pseudo security on top of their regular jobs are really unrealistic. Unless those event organizers are willing to pay the staff more to have more qualified people.
All these events have security staff, sometimes it's off duty police, sometimes it's hired security, but they are always there. This is who people should go find if they see an abusive group. It is quite literally their job to handle the situation. I agree, asking the ticket checker or someone cleaning up trash to intervene is unrealistic.
If the events need to hire more security-rated staff, or more regular staff to give them the time they need to go get security staff (or both),in order to properly protect their fans, then that's what they need to do. To not do so is unacceptable.
This is also part of the fucked up financials of F1, a track has to pay F1 for them to come, so you basically have to hire out F1, but then you've also got to hire, or temporarily enslave some marshals for the race. The fact that track marshaling is a volunteer position is a travesty, F1 is worth billions of dollars, asking people to safeguard their events for free is bullshit, and they're putting their lives on the line to do it. How many marshal deaths have we had in the last 10 years?
In the uk, it remains the responsibility of the organisers to have sufficient security staff to manage the event. It isn't like formula 1 doesn't generate vast revenues. Organisers will always do the minimum they can get away with as it's cheaper. When it goes wrong, it's too late. Look at wembley or more recently wireless. They ought to be held to account more. At football matches there are sufficient stewards to make interventions and ejections. Safety staff actively monitor the fans. Ejections against arrests can be 10:1 some times. F1 ought to insist on higher standards. It makes its money playing on rivalries and heros and villains, but needs to better manage the toxic atmosphere that is clearly creating.
Stewards & Marshalls often low paid/volunteers but they're the grafters of the event. Security is often contracted in. I have worked event security and paid hansomly for it but we're expected to handle these people
10:41: The brakes are not fully brake by wire. The rear is disconnected and electronically controlled to balance between MGU-K and physical brakes, but the front brakes are physically connected to the brake pedal with no electronic assists.
i spent the race weekend at my grandparents, because they live really close to the race track and of course I talked with my grandpa about the grand prix and the turn 4 incident (we are both red bull fans). And to my utter surprise he went to the basement and pulled out the original blueprints for the race track from 1994. But not just one, there were multiple blueprints with different variations. Those blueprints were from the planning phase, before the track was approved by the FIA. There was a blueprint, where corner 4 had a constant radius and another wacky one, where the corner 4 was actually a right-left-right combo.
@@JohnSmithShields I would love to, but he wouldn't let me scan them, because at the time of the creation of the blueprints, they were buisness secrets of the FIA and you could get in a lot of trouble for sharing them. But now 28 years later it should be okay, but does someone know for sure? I couldn't find any online ressources on this topic. Oh, and also the first corner was in the first iteration a hairpin followed immediatly by a sharp left, but it was dropped, because it ruined the flow of the track. And corner 3 was supposed to go a bit further up the hill to avoid the strong elevation change mid corner. My grandpa actually consultet with Niki Lauda and Gerhard Berger and asked them about the corners. Just for context, my grandpa did basically all the planning of the track (but he had to comply to the FIA regulations, so he didn't have a lot of freedom for the basic layout). But after the blueprints were submitted and approved by the FIA Herman Tilke took over for the actuall construction of the track, so thats why the track was "rebuilt by Tilke", when you look at the history books.
@@nebelwaffel8174 thanks for the information, hopefully they can be shared at some point. I'm amazed the curcuit aren't interested in them, as part of their history.
@@JohnSmithShields oh, they made about 10 copies of the blueprints, one for every higher official at the FIA. I wouldn't be surprised, if red bull got their hands on one of them.
@@nebelwaffel8174 Servus Nebel, sollte nach so langer Zeit kein Problem sein, außer es gibt irgendwo spezielle Verträge darüber, die gehen aber eigentlich nie so lange. Quelle: arbeite in der Schutzrecht-Abteilung einer großen Firma in Österreich. :)
Let's be honest. A fresh driver that tries to get their driving license has to be able to fit their car in the lines. They also can't see the lines near their wheels. Drive further away if you can't see them. The argument that potentially the best drivers in the world can't... eh. +1 to penalty graphics.
@@dmaharry7976 that's the purpose of track limits...go only as fast as you can take it, it's the balance for much faster cars than the rest of the field, Cont
@@alessiocarlevaro6934 no, but F1 drivers aren't new drivers with their learners permit. They're the best drivers in the world with years of experience going at high speed into corners.
They manage to hit the apex at Bruxelles at Spa alright, they know where their wheels are, they know what's on the track, they walk it at least once in a weekend just to find little cambers and areas they could be faster. They know where the track is and where their car is.
IKR pundits too were complaining about the inconsistency of track limits specifically all of the last few seasons most said, just keep it simple, the white lines are the limits, you must keep part of your car on or inside those white lines at all times. At Austria pundits were complaining about the farcical number of penalties! For once that isn't the stewards fault, the drivers just need to drive within the lines, if they drove over the lines that much at Monaco we'd have half the field not finishing! So they are more than capable of doing it.
apparently they are doing track limits on all corners? i could have sworn i saw so many drivers go past the line in the middle sector or am i just seeing things
The Idea to enforce Track limits by a Bollard was done in Formula E season 4. They put a Bollard on the inside of a chicane and if you touched it your lap was invalid. The Bollard became a quick meme, as almost every driver hit the bollard or run entirely over it. The commentators made the Bollard famous as "Bob the Bollard" and after one Race it was never used again.
Honestly I think the bollard was just too close there, Formula E chicanes are already really tight so you'd have to slow down way too much. It's not like tracks limits are a problem in FE anyway, since there are walls most of the time lol
As much as I'm used to piling on the stewards for crap calls, the drivers are paid to be the best in the world and in highly contested seats. Drive in the lines.
I have no issue with increased numbers of penalties. eventually the drivers will get the memo and stop pushing it so much on the trickier corners. It's 100% in the drivers. The rules and the circuits are fine. Don't panic as soon as we have a race with lots of penalties. This is a temporary outcome of what we've wanted for years - simple, consistent rules. It's just taking drivers some time to adapt, which is nothing to worry about.
This lap time deletion is actually fun to watch. It maybe problematic and difficult for drivers, but as fans, we know there is a stake for those we love to see racing
Would have also been interested in your take on the stewards (once again) being shockingly slow when deploying VSC/SC. It was so obvious that the Sainz fire would need at least a VSC, yet it took almost a minute for them to deploy it, putting the marshals in a tricky position, as Sainz needed help, but the track was still live.
I would've loved to hear your opinion about the British GP; Zhou's crash and what you think about the roll hoop breaking off the car (although I can understand if you'd want to wait until a official FIA investigation is concluded), as well as the issue with people forcing each other off track and not getting penalized (maybe your opinion about what should or shouldn't be acceptable in that context, not only what the rule book actually says about it). Would be super interested in a video of that sort. Is there any chance you might way in on that?
I hope you feel better soon, Stuart. I love the "stay in the white lines" thing. If it was so hard to see the lines, as Sky kept trying to claim, they'd have all crashed out on the first lap at Monaco.
The problem with Checo was not the penalty. It was his fault, he went off track limits. What seemed really ugly to me was to keep silent, don't do anything, let Checo do Q3 and after all that, apply the penalty so late. It's not only the fact that Pérez wasted a set of tyres, but also the fact that the one driver who got eleventh place in Q2 couldn't run Q3 even after the penalty for Checo.
For me, the late penalty is a race director and stewarding problem. They took too long in enforcing the rules. And if they are too late, they can’t or shouldn’t enforce it in this way. Maybe even Q3 may only start if all investigations of Q2 have been judged.
Thank you for an honest assessment of the behavioural issues at the races. You've said more than Formula 1 on the endemic issues, fair play to you mate. Great video as always 👍
@@guilhermeodai i was cringing every time they did the little end racism silence thing at the start of each race, im sure it makes people more aware but f1 cant claim the are helping just by doing that especially when they put money over everything else with some specific new tracks that i wont name
Such an amazing race, great stuff from the midfield to battle for 1st and I’m really happy for Haas, Mick, and Kmag looks like things are starting to pick up for them!
I've always thought they should just make the green kerbs the same width as the cars (which they often aren't), that gives the drivers visibility and means that you'll never get penalties on corners with gravel, as there were a few cases of track limit violations on corners with gravel, as the drivers were off the track as defined by the lines, on the green kerbs, but still not in the gravel, as the kerbs are wider than the cars
F1 cars constantly change size through the seasons.. Also other classes use these tracks. So you would constantly be adjusting these which would get expensive and intrusive.
@@JakandDaxterAddict i am not entirely certain, but I'd say that it's a safety thing. And would depend on corner to corner. Tyres have very little traction on grass. Though I have heard in the past, that given everyone breaks the track limits constantly, when its grass/dir, divots appear, which become pot holes which become problematic over time.
Just want to quickly say "Thank you" This is the first video that I see talking about the harassment as a wider issue instead of just throwing all max fans under the bus as the big baddies. It is good to hear there are still people who know this is not just an incident that was RedBull ring exclusive and in Zandvoort it will happen again. It is an issue that has been here for ages and the worst thing is that some of the people publically stating they were vicitms of the the harassement, lied about it and nothing really happened. Making it all even worse to me. But great video. Good info :D
Great vid. One other thing regarding fans, they really need to stop lighting flares on the first lap. It must ruin visibility for the drivers and is just plain dangerous
04:39 - This is a pretty good reason to have more teams in F1. If a car or two that become DNFs because of gravel then it is not much of a problem since we will still have a sufficient number of cars running (because more would start the race) to have a decent show. Andretti should be accepted immediately
The other reason that tracks don't like gravel traps is that for track days, which make the tracks a lot of their money, most people don't like gravel for the reasons mentioned, but also gravel can cause minor damage to cars, paint chips, dents etc, even potential damage to the undercarriage of the car, and for people driving their own cars they very much want to avoid this, so will avoid tracks with gravel at tricky corners where they're more likely to go off, hurting the track's bottom line
I'd put a step down of a few inches where the car's outer tyre would drop down the step if the inner wheel were over the limit. The step should be sufficient to make it almost impossible to get the car back on track without remaining off track and passing through a maze. Either that or rotating knives.
Red Bull Ring is FIM homologated. Motorcycles can and do race there. Putting ridges or steps on the track have a decent chance of upsetting a motorcycle and resulting in a more dangerous crash. I am a fool.
I’m sorry to hear about your illness l am lucky to have avoided covid but it’s made some of the people I love very unwell. I hope you’re making a complete recovery. Thanks for the video. I may be in the minority but I would prefer to see track limits enforced consistently at all tracks even when it’s inconvenient. I’m sure the drivers will do better next year if they know they will be punished. It’s a shame that they didn’t sort out deleting times in qualifying consistently though. I was listening on the radio and they saw that Perez was out of the line so it shouldn’t have been hard. Thanks again for sharing your opinions
Thank you for that message at the end, before the sponsored one obviously It's really scary going to a sporting event especially if you're in the minority be it in the wider world or even just being a fan of a different driver than most others It obviously needs to stop and it's absolutely stupid to pay all that money and just making someone else feel threatened or intimidated intentionally
The track is the track and the whole car should race on the track. The rumble strips are not the track. Back in the day, there was the track, and then the grass. The cars should race that way now.
F1 should implement an anonymous text service to report bad behaviour at tracks so they can do it discreetly, they have a similar system in place in the T20 Cricket here in England.
I think Sainz’s incident and the unreasonable grief the marshal took afterwards is another example of why F1 needs a travel safety team. These corner marshals are usually volunteers or local firemen, having a core group of experts in the cars, like the chase car doctor is for the drivers, spread out amongst the marshal posts, plus in response vehicles (yes, I know that’s more of a US mode, but I’m thinking combining the best of both ways) around the track, would improve safety greatly.
This can easily be fixed. 3-5 meters of grass/gravel bordering the track before the mile of asphalt runoff would encourage drivers to keep ALL 4 wheels on the track. I'm kind of fed up with this "well, 2 cm of my inside tires are on the track, so just ignore the 99.995% of the rest of my car that's off track." Like you said... these are supposed to be the best drivers in the world. They should be able to keep the car on track. All 4 wheels should have to be on track.
10:41That's only partially true. In F1 BBW, the rear brakes are electronically operated, but the front brakes are still mechanically connected to the master cylinder.
@@RMF1986 thanks, keeps it simple, (Not as simple as the wall of champions but still simple) clear, sorts it out on track, is significant and a big enough penalty to not do it.
I think the problem with fan behavior is also connected with alcohol consumption. Honestly in some areas of austrian gp fan zones it looked like in the pub at closing hours. I'm not for complete prohibition, I can understand one or two beers, but ten? (judging by the amount of cans left behind by those groups). I don't think there is a solution for this problem.
I don't think so, no matter how much alcohol I drink I don't get violent, I get goofy and clumsy but not violent towards other people. If you can't handle alcohol don't drink.
I think the Austrian GP pinpointed a problem quite clearly in a comment from HAM as he was driving. Let me set this up… You’re doing your best and every car around you is over the edge/line/limits. So to keep up you too feel you need to push as wide/hard. What you don’t know is that the cars ahead of you are all getting penalized with warnings that are only communicated to them and their teams individually. So you keep pushing and also getting warnings, unaware of the “also”. That to you feels and seems unfair. This was made evident by HAM’s exchange with the team during the race when he got a warning over radio and commented something along the lines “so why are they penalizing me?” and was only then told that there had been a shitload of penalties handed out already. So part of the problem is that the drivers don’t know that the cars ahead are being penalized- there’s no way for them to know unless the team tells them. I think this info needs to be “open” to all drivers at all times. Like a billboard which all the runners and the number of warnings handed out that the driver can see once a lap. That way HAM (and all the others) would have been able to see the numbers counting up and maybe have been made aware. Or any other “open” solution.
I see your point but I don't know if I agree, Hamilton should make his upmost to drive as fast as he can while keeping the car within the legal surface of the track. And it should be the team's responsibility to ensure that the rules are applied equally to all the drivers. What Hamilton did was to wrongly assume that others drivers had not been handed penalties. All the drivers including Hamilton knew before the start of the weekend that going outside of the white lines was not legal.
A big sticking point is that they need cameras that clearly show when over the line or not... that way there's no arguing and all can just get in with it.
Chain Bear, I love your videos. I recommend them to my friends who want to get into F1. Quick question: what software do you use for your animated infographics? They're stunning
I like track limits enforcement. It has been taken advantage of the last couple years and there will be growing pains. But these are the "best racing drivers in the world" - they should and will figure out how to stay within the boundaries
How about adding the plastic flappy reflector things they use on highway construction sites to help mark the troublesome turns? It would have minimal damage on impact and it would be clear to everyone if they hit it.
I think they should go further with track limits, it should be the outside wheels that can't cross the line then we wouldn't get situations like we have had recently where someone tries to overtake around the outside where there is no room (Perez on Russell for example ) gets hit by someone on the normal racing line and the person on the inside gets the penalty. As you say these guys are at their peak. I'm an ordinary driver and could drive my hatchback around a racetrack all day long without touching a white line, it's about knowing the limits of yourself and your car. With these cars being so rude height sensitive the last thing you would expect is sticking half of the car up on a kerb which will affect the downforce. I agree with everything you say about "Fan" behaviour.
With all the tech in F1, can't we have instant, automatic white line detection? Give the driver feedback on the steering wheel the moment it happens, and any penalty instantly applied. That would save a lot of confusion.
They have sensors obviously that inform FIA when a cut has been detected. It's not like they have 10 men employed each following one corner exit to spot when cars cross the white line.
@@C3lloman Obviously. What you're describing is tool assisted stewarding. What I'm describing is fully automatic stewarding. What is the false-positive/false-negative rate of that system? Is it like Hawkeye? Or do the sensors sometimes drift, or flake out? We know drivers don't get instant feedback from this system, and the delay in applying the penalty to Perez in qualifying was absurd. So there's clearly a lot of space for improvement.
Every track should have solid walls directly on either side of the track limits. Self policing policy, you don't see laps being deleted for track limits in Monaco because if you cant keep the car in the lines you crash.
A sincere question here: if throttle and breaks are electronic activated, how a driver can feel that are air bubbles on the hydraulic system of the brakes? I mean, if I got it correctly, the brake pedal is not directly connected to the hydraulic system right? So how can they feel the air bubbles?
Instead of gravel, how about a thin strip of grass like they have at.... Interlagos, I think? It really discourages going off track because your tires get dirty, but you still have the tarmac runoff in case bad stuff happens.
In regards to the track limits (and to help out with user interaction :D) It's definitely a driver issue. As someone who plays the F1 games a lot, league racing and such. Every time you go wide you get a warning, penalties go up and it will annoy you. But when you get it right, don't track extend to the end of narnia it's very satisfying. (Yes I know that the F1 games and F1 irl is different but still. Practice makes perfect, AND DON'T TRACK EXTEND)
It means that only you know your true intentions at heart. So while to you you may know your actions are all in good fun, other people don't know that. So when your 'joking around' starts to get physical it can legitimately scare other people.
Regarding 6:30 The broadcast could just straight up rip the solution from the f1 games. Any drivers with a time penalty have a flag next to them with a +5 (etc) for the total amount of time their penalties add up to. A simple and effective solution to that problem
Re: where the problems is with track penalties; i think the fact that Perez's Q2 lap was only deleted after the session IS a massive stewarding problem. Especially given how frequently that happens. The white lines are supposed to be clear and simple boundaries but the race adjudicators can't even accurately monitor them during a session and need teams to protest and point out breeches to them? That really ought to be unacceptable imo
I think they should add negative camber to the the race tracks on the outside for at least the first little bit so they are punished for going wide but are not launched into the air
I've said it before, I'll say it again. The world does not revolve around F1, or even cars. Red Bull Ring is FIM homologated. Motorcycles race there. Negative camber will severely affect motorcycles, and almost ensure a crash for someone going wide or being forced off at full effort. It also runs the risk of accelerating any vehicle (And potentially rider) that is crashing or has crashed.
Idk about Ferrari winning on strategy. I think it's more about Leclerc leaving Verstappen in the dust so the Red Bull camp panicked and did a very misguided attempt at an undercut. Which ultimately saw Verstappen falling off the pace even worse. For all it's worth, I'm glad Charles finally won a race he deserved so much.
is there a video where it explains the track limits and regulations? For example, doing what doesn't count for the time of that sector, and is there like one side of the car is over the line but the other side is not so it's still valid? I can't find such videos anywhere, I'd like to learn more about it
On this very occasion of Russell vs Perez i think Perez was at fault, he squeezed Russel on the inside while having room enough on the outside. Russell steered in completely if you check on camera, Perez just didnt anticipate his turning circle wide enough when trying to squeeze. i was sad to see the penalty on Russell
Imo the problem with track limits aren't the rules, the drivers or the track. It's the rule enforcement. There should be sensors in the tyres which can accurately detect whether a car is within track limits or not. Added to this we should get rid of the 3 strikes and you're out system. Instead there should be a penalty zone similar to the attack zone in FE, which is located at the inside of a corner exit that leads onto a long straight. This would result in an immediate and a bit less harsh time loss and the battles would continue on track instead of having penalties applied after the finish.
That's not a bad idea but I think it would be really hard to implement in reality. I wouldn't mind something like a "mini" VSC for track limit infringements though, as it's similar to your idea and doesn't require any modifications to the tracks. Something like "you have to drive X% slower for 2 seconds", with some mandatory throttle limiter like they already have for pit stops.
Chain bear actually talked about that in another video (I think the one "Why run wide at Parabolica?") in which he proposed having sensors which put the cars into "low energy" mode or something for a few seconds. The problem is that it creates a possibly substantial speed difference between cars, which could be dangerous. One idea could be to put special lights on the back of cars (much like energy recovery/wet weather lights) which start to flash a few seconds before the car gets put into a low energy mode and stays active until they're at regular power again. That gives chasing cars enough time to spot and avoid possible dangers. You might even have that penalty system deactivated on the first few laps (like DRS) just to be safe with all the cars so close together. Another issue with that might be when a driver gets forced off the track by another, they then would get punished twice basically for doing nothing wrong. But other than that, I find it an interesting idea for sure.
@@TheMentallord the problem with your idea is that there would have to be clearly defined penalty zones as cars just slowing down out of nowhere is just inherently dangerous. Also I think it would be difficult for the drivers to slow down for an exact amount of time which is why I'd prefer the penalty zone approach as it should be pretty consistent but also has some driver skill involved.
Having sensors within the tyres might be a bit tricky, but given that F1 cars have a fixed width anyway, you might as well put a single line of sensors in the plank, at the centerline of the car. Then the system determining whether a driver has crossed the white line or not can simply add or deduct half the car's width and come to the right conclusion. But whichever way it's implemented, I think sensors are indeed the way to go. I think the main reason they're not installed yet is because it would also require sensors to be installed in the track surface at the edge of the white line, and while F1 as a sport can easily mandate sensors to be included in the cars and the teams will just follow suit, it's going to be significantly harder to convince circuits to do the same, especially if you're making them pay for it themselves.
Fly by wire would for me also include the option to reset 0% and 100%, and everything in between (throttle mapping). So not sur why this was such a problem
6:28 MotoGP (for once) is ahead of F1 in this regard, as they have introduced icons on the timing tower just as described. MotoGP, lacking pit stops, has a "long lap" penalty which is an extra strip of asphalt on the outside of a corner, that riders are forced to take. This is roughly equivalent to a time penalty and it's worked well so far.
They have a gray triangle with a '!' symbol when a rider has a track limits warning, a yellow circle with a '!' symbol when someone has an untaken penalty, and a magnifying glass when a rider is under investigation. Nifty system imo.
MotoGP has a consistency advantage because they run on two narrow tyres, so they can use sensors to detect track limits, and even then it’s very easy to spot track limits due to the tyres. And the long-lap penalty is only 1.5-2.5 seconds extra, it’s enough for atleast Moto2 and Moto3 to drop you 10-15 spots due to much closer racing.
The long lap is a great solution and i so wonder if it would work in F1.
@@matgee8892 F1 would need to change almost all circuits, when a drive through is already a viable solution
I like that magnifying glass symbol, that's clever.
The best part definitely has to be Mick's pace and defence during the sprint and race
I don’t know about Europe but event staffs are low paying jobs. Expecting those people to handle abusive people and act like pseudo security on top of their regular jobs are really unrealistic. Unless those event organizers are willing to pay the staff more to have more qualified people.
All these events have security staff, sometimes it's off duty police, sometimes it's hired security, but they are always there. This is who people should go find if they see an abusive group. It is quite literally their job to handle the situation. I agree, asking the ticket checker or someone cleaning up trash to intervene is unrealistic.
If the events need to hire more security-rated staff, or more regular staff to give them the time they need to go get security staff (or both),in order to properly protect their fans, then that's what they need to do. To not do so is unacceptable.
This is also part of the fucked up financials of F1, a track has to pay F1 for them to come, so you basically have to hire out F1, but then you've also got to hire, or temporarily enslave some marshals for the race. The fact that track marshaling is a volunteer position is a travesty, F1 is worth billions of dollars, asking people to safeguard their events for free is bullshit, and they're putting their lives on the line to do it. How many marshal deaths have we had in the last 10 years?
In the uk, it remains the responsibility of the organisers to have sufficient security staff to manage the event. It isn't like formula 1 doesn't generate vast revenues. Organisers will always do the minimum they can get away with as it's cheaper. When it goes wrong, it's too late. Look at wembley or more recently wireless. They ought to be held to account more. At football matches there are sufficient stewards to make interventions and ejections. Safety staff actively monitor the fans. Ejections against arrests can be 10:1 some times. F1 ought to insist on higher standards. It makes its money playing on rivalries and heros and villains, but needs to better manage the toxic atmosphere that is clearly creating.
Stewards & Marshalls often low paid/volunteers but they're the grafters of the event.
Security is often contracted in. I have worked event security and paid hansomly for it but we're expected to handle these people
10:41: The brakes are not fully brake by wire. The rear is disconnected and electronically controlled to balance between MGU-K and physical brakes, but the front brakes are physically connected to the brake pedal with no electronic assists.
Glad someone made this comment. This is the reason the drivers need to have such strong legs.
i spent the race weekend at my grandparents, because they live really close to the race track and of course I talked with my grandpa about the grand prix and the turn 4 incident (we are both red bull fans). And to my utter surprise he went to the basement and pulled out the original blueprints for the race track from 1994. But not just one, there were multiple blueprints with different variations. Those blueprints were from the planning phase, before the track was approved by the FIA.
There was a blueprint, where corner 4 had a constant radius and another wacky one, where the corner 4 was actually a right-left-right combo.
These need sharing.
@@JohnSmithShields I would love to, but he wouldn't let me scan them, because at the time of the creation of the blueprints, they were buisness secrets of the FIA and you could get in a lot of trouble for sharing them.
But now 28 years later it should be okay, but does someone know for sure? I couldn't find any online ressources on this topic.
Oh, and also the first corner was in the first iteration a hairpin followed immediatly by a sharp left, but it was dropped, because it ruined the flow of the track.
And corner 3 was supposed to go a bit further up the hill to avoid the strong elevation change mid corner.
My grandpa actually consultet with Niki Lauda and Gerhard Berger and asked them about the corners.
Just for context, my grandpa did basically all the planning of the track (but he had to comply to the FIA regulations, so he didn't have a lot of freedom for the basic layout). But after the blueprints were submitted and approved by the FIA Herman Tilke took over for the actuall construction of the track, so thats why the track was "rebuilt by Tilke", when you look at the history books.
@@nebelwaffel8174 thanks for the information, hopefully they can be shared at some point. I'm amazed the curcuit aren't interested in them, as part of their history.
@@JohnSmithShields oh, they made about 10 copies of the blueprints, one for every higher official at the FIA. I wouldn't be surprised, if red bull got their hands on one of them.
@@nebelwaffel8174 Servus Nebel, sollte nach so langer Zeit kein Problem sein, außer es gibt irgendwo spezielle Verträge darüber, die gehen aber eigentlich nie so lange.
Quelle: arbeite in der Schutzrecht-Abteilung einer großen Firma in Österreich. :)
Let's be honest. A fresh driver that tries to get their driving license has to be able to fit their car in the lines. They also can't see the lines near their wheels. Drive further away if you can't see them. The argument that potentially the best drivers in the world can't... eh.
+1 to penalty graphics.
Yeah especially at 150kph - 200kph. Easy to see the lines in the corner
do they have to do it at 240 km/h tho?
@@dmaharry7976 that's the purpose of track limits...go only as fast as you can take it, it's the balance for much faster cars than the rest of the field,
Cont
@@alessiocarlevaro6934 no, but F1 drivers aren't new drivers with their learners permit. They're the best drivers in the world with years of experience going at high speed into corners.
They manage to hit the apex at Bruxelles at Spa alright, they know where their wheels are, they know what's on the track, they walk it at least once in a weekend just to find little cambers and areas they could be faster. They know where the track is and where their car is.
Drivers: We want consistent application of the rules.
FIA: Track limits.
Drivers: Wait, not those rules.
IKR pundits too were complaining about the inconsistency of track limits specifically all of the last few seasons most said, just keep it simple, the white lines are the limits, you must keep part of your car on or inside those white lines at all times. At Austria pundits were complaining about the farcical number of penalties! For once that isn't the stewards fault, the drivers just need to drive within the lines, if they drove over the lines that much at Monaco we'd have half the field not finishing! So they are more than capable of doing it.
apparently they are doing track limits on all corners? i could have sworn i saw so many drivers go past the line in the middle sector or am i just seeing things
The Idea to enforce Track limits by a Bollard was done in Formula E season 4. They put a Bollard on the inside of a chicane and if you touched it your lap was invalid.
The Bollard became a quick meme, as almost every driver hit the bollard or run entirely over it.
The commentators made the Bollard famous as "Bob the Bollard" and after one Race it was never used again.
Well if cutting the track is that effective then maybe it's worth the penalty thus why everyone hitting it anyway.
Honestly I think the bollard was just too close there, Formula E chicanes are already really tight so you'd have to slow down way too much. It's not like tracks limits are a problem in FE anyway, since there are walls most of the time lol
As much as I'm used to piling on the stewards for crap calls, the drivers are paid to be the best in the world and in highly contested seats. Drive in the lines.
Always look forward to these - thanks Chainbear!
I have no issue with increased numbers of penalties. eventually the drivers will get the memo and stop pushing it so much on the trickier corners.
It's 100% in the drivers. The rules and the circuits are fine. Don't panic as soon as we have a race with lots of penalties. This is a temporary outcome of what we've wanted for years - simple, consistent rules. It's just taking drivers some time to adapt, which is nothing to worry about.
100%
Glad you are back mate like always great video love it
This lap time deletion is actually fun to watch. It maybe problematic and difficult for drivers, but as fans, we know there is a stake for those we love to see racing
5 seconds is a very small price compared to driving on the grawel or kissing the walls
Would have also been interested in your take on the stewards (once again) being shockingly slow when deploying VSC/SC. It was so obvious that the Sainz fire would need at least a VSC, yet it took almost a minute for them to deploy it, putting the marshals in a tricky position, as Sainz needed help, but the track was still live.
That would be the race director, actually, not the stewards. But yeah, it was very slow once more.
I would've loved to hear your opinion about the British GP; Zhou's crash and what you think about the roll hoop breaking off the car (although I can understand if you'd want to wait until a official FIA investigation is concluded), as well as the issue with people forcing each other off track and not getting penalized (maybe your opinion about what should or shouldn't be acceptable in that context, not only what the rule book actually says about it). Would be super interested in a video of that sort. Is there any chance you might way in on that?
I hope you feel better soon, Stuart.
I love the "stay in the white lines" thing. If it was so hard to see the lines, as Sky kept trying to claim, they'd have all crashed out on the first lap at Monaco.
great segment on the social issues at races! really enjoyed you taking the time to bring this up and using your platform!
Agreed.
Yeah I'm going to finally stop molesting women because of this video.
Glad he is feeling better! Was in serious shambles without a video after the British GP
Nice to see you back, I was starting to worry. I hope vacation was good and the Covid cough goes away soon.
You forgot about one thing with the fans. Keep the fucking flares at home!
hey right on for that section on harrassment at the end there, thank you
The problem with Checo was not the penalty. It was his fault, he went off track limits.
What seemed really ugly to me was to keep silent, don't do anything, let Checo do Q3 and after all that, apply the penalty so late.
It's not only the fact that Pérez wasted a set of tyres, but also the fact that the one driver who got eleventh place in Q2 couldn't run Q3 even after the penalty for Checo.
For me, the late penalty is a race director and stewarding problem. They took too long in enforcing the rules. And if they are too late, they can’t or shouldn’t enforce it in this way. Maybe even Q3 may only start if all investigations of Q2 have been judged.
Thank you for an honest assessment of the behavioural issues at the races. You've said more than Formula 1 on the endemic issues, fair play to you mate. Great video as always 👍
And offered more action than empty slogans that accomplish nothing like "End Racism"
@@guilhermeodai Absolutely right there!
@@guilhermeodai i was cringing every time they did the little end racism silence thing at the start of each race, im sure it makes people more aware but f1 cant claim the are helping just by doing that especially when they put money over everything else with some specific new tracks that i wont name
Such an amazing race, great stuff from the midfield to battle for 1st and I’m really happy for Haas, Mick, and Kmag looks like things are starting to pick up for them!
Get well soon, we need your content.
I've always thought they should just make the green kerbs the same width as the cars (which they often aren't), that gives the drivers visibility and means that you'll never get penalties on corners with gravel, as there were a few cases of track limit violations on corners with gravel, as the drivers were off the track as defined by the lines, on the green kerbs, but still not in the gravel, as the kerbs are wider than the cars
F1 cars constantly change size through the seasons.. Also other classes use these tracks. So you would constantly be adjusting these which would get expensive and intrusive.
Why not have grass?
@@JakandDaxterAddict i am not entirely certain, but I'd say that it's a safety thing. And would depend on corner to corner.
Tyres have very little traction on grass.
Though I have heard in the past, that given everyone breaks the track limits constantly, when its grass/dir, divots appear, which become pot holes which become problematic over time.
Feel better soon Chain Bear!
Chain🐻 is such a good guy. Always speaks empathy and equality in a kind way that’s respected.
Just want to quickly say "Thank you"
This is the first video that I see talking about the harassment as a wider issue instead of just throwing all max fans under the bus as the big baddies.
It is good to hear there are still people who know this is not just an incident that was RedBull ring exclusive and in Zandvoort it will happen again.
It is an issue that has been here for ages and the worst thing is that some of the people publically stating they were vicitms of the the harassement, lied about it and nothing really happened.
Making it all even worse to me.
But great video.
Good info :D
Great vid. One other thing regarding fans, they really need to stop lighting flares on the first lap. It must ruin visibility for the drivers and is just plain dangerous
04:39 - This is a pretty good reason to have more teams in F1. If a car or two that become DNFs because of gravel then it is not much of a problem since we will still have a sufficient number of cars running (because more would start the race) to have a decent show. Andretti should be accepted immediately
The other reason that tracks don't like gravel traps is that for track days, which make the tracks a lot of their money, most people don't like gravel for the reasons mentioned, but also gravel can cause minor damage to cars, paint chips, dents etc, even potential damage to the undercarriage of the car, and for people driving their own cars they very much want to avoid this, so will avoid tracks with gravel at tricky corners where they're more likely to go off, hurting the track's bottom line
Great comparison of a race weekend, some controversial talking points AND a life advice on how to protect vulnerable people in one video. Great stuff
Brilliant is not just the sponsor, it's the content 👍🏼
Good to have you back. I hope you recover very soon.
Great statement on the end!
I'd put a step down of a few inches where the car's outer tyre would drop down the step if the inner wheel were over the limit. The step should be sufficient to make it almost impossible to get the car back on track without remaining off track and passing through a maze. Either that or rotating knives.
Red Bull Ring is FIM homologated. Motorcycles can and do race there. Putting ridges or steps on the track have a decent chance of upsetting a motorcycle and resulting in a more dangerous crash.
I am a fool.
@@StarkRaven59 And how are they with the knives?
@@mutleyomuttlesson2799 Somewhere around Road Rash, I'd reckon.
Here after 2023 Austrian GP track limits
I only get excited to hear what chainbear has to say about things. No other channel comes close
Your videos are so good! Looking forward to them every week!!
I’m sorry to hear about your illness l am lucky to have avoided covid but it’s made some of the people I love very unwell. I hope you’re making a complete recovery. Thanks for the video. I may be in the minority but I would prefer to see track limits enforced consistently at all tracks even when it’s inconvenient. I’m sure the drivers will do better next year if they know they will be punished. It’s a shame that they didn’t sort out deleting times in qualifying consistently though. I was listening on the radio and they saw that Perez was out of the line so it shouldn’t have been hard. Thanks again for sharing your opinions
Thank you for that message at the end, before the sponsored one obviously
It's really scary going to a sporting event especially if you're in the minority be it in the wider world or even just being a fan of a different driver than most others
It obviously needs to stop and it's absolutely stupid to pay all that money and just making someone else feel threatened or intimidated intentionally
The track is the track and the whole car should race on the track. The rumble strips are not the track. Back in the day, there was the track, and then the grass. The cars should race that way now.
F1 should implement an anonymous text service to report bad behaviour at tracks so they can do it discreetly, they have a similar system in place in the T20 Cricket here in England.
@@MarcoZ1ITA1 yes it also stops the problem of people going up to stewards and potentially causing more issues
We finally have consistent track limits rules and the drivers still complain. Thought they wanted the white lines to define the track...
Update on this video after the 2023 race please??
I'm glad you're back! Missed you after Silverstone... Great video, as always!
I always love watching these videos after the race. Somehow got concerned if you have stopped making them. Thank you for the content. Get well soon!
I think Sainz’s incident and the unreasonable grief the marshal took afterwards is another example of why F1 needs a travel safety team. These corner marshals are usually volunteers or local firemen, having a core group of experts in the cars, like the chase car doctor is for the drivers, spread out amongst the marshal posts, plus in response vehicles (yes, I know that’s more of a US mode, but I’m thinking combining the best of both ways) around the track, would improve safety greatly.
This can easily be fixed. 3-5 meters of grass/gravel bordering the track before the mile of asphalt runoff would encourage drivers to keep ALL 4 wheels on the track. I'm kind of fed up with this "well, 2 cm of my inside tires are on the track, so just ignore the 99.995% of the rest of my car that's off track." Like you said... these are supposed to be the best drivers in the world. They should be able to keep the car on track. All 4 wheels should have to be on track.
Excellent video from start to finish.
Always enjoy these, thank you!
10:41That's only partially true. In F1 BBW, the rear brakes are electronically operated, but the front brakes are still mechanically connected to the master cylinder.
Think he was just simplifying, he's aware of this as he has a really detailed video talking about the brake system where he mentions just that.
TRACK LIMITS: Use sensors, if you trip a sensor by going too wide then your battery and DRS are disabled for 2 laps.
This is freaking genius
@@RMF1986 thanks, keeps it simple, (Not as simple as the wall of champions but still simple) clear, sorts it out on track, is significant and a big enough penalty to not do it.
Can you bring back Fantasy GP please? So many of us enjoyed it
Fantastic as always!
Really like the +5 sec tabs,, great idea
I think the problem with fan behavior is also connected with alcohol consumption. Honestly in some areas of austrian gp fan zones it looked like in the pub at closing hours. I'm not for complete prohibition, I can understand one or two beers, but ten? (judging by the amount of cans left behind by those groups). I don't think there is a solution for this problem.
I don't think so, no matter how much alcohol I drink I don't get violent, I get goofy and clumsy but not violent towards other people. If you can't handle alcohol don't drink.
Thanks for breaking it all down
Welcome back! Hope you have a quick recovery.
I think the Austrian GP pinpointed a problem quite clearly in a comment from HAM as he was driving. Let me set this up…
You’re doing your best and every car around you is over the edge/line/limits. So to keep up you too feel you need to push as wide/hard.
What you don’t know is that the cars ahead of you are all getting penalized with warnings that are only communicated to them and their teams individually. So you keep pushing and also getting warnings, unaware of the “also”. That to you feels and seems unfair.
This was made evident by HAM’s exchange with the team during the race when he got a warning over radio and commented something along the lines “so why are they penalizing me?” and was only then told that there had been a shitload of penalties handed out already.
So part of the problem is that the drivers don’t know that the cars ahead are being penalized- there’s no way for them to know unless the team tells them.
I think this info needs to be “open” to all drivers at all times. Like a billboard which all the runners and the number of warnings handed out that the driver can see once a lap. That way HAM (and all the others) would have been able to see the numbers counting up and maybe have been made aware. Or any other “open” solution.
I see your point but I don't know if I agree, Hamilton should make his upmost to drive as fast as he can while keeping the car within the legal surface of the track. And it should be the team's responsibility to ensure that the rules are applied equally to all the drivers.
What Hamilton did was to wrongly assume that others drivers had not been handed penalties. All the drivers including Hamilton knew before the start of the weekend that going outside of the white lines was not legal.
you need to upload more often bro, your vids are so great
A big sticking point is that they need cameras that clearly show when over the line or not... that way there's no arguing and all can just get in with it.
Chain Bear, I love your videos. I recommend them to my friends who want to get into F1. Quick question: what software do you use for your animated infographics? They're stunning
I like track limits enforcement. It has been taken advantage of the last couple years and there will be growing pains. But these are the "best racing drivers in the world" - they should and will figure out how to stay within the boundaries
Excited to see new video on leclerc's pedal after yesterday!! This is some big problem they're having, man
How about adding the plastic flappy reflector things they use on highway construction sites to help mark the troublesome turns? It would have minimal damage on impact and it would be clear to everyone if they hit it.
I think they should go further with track limits, it should be the outside wheels that can't cross the line then we wouldn't get situations like we have had recently where someone tries to overtake around the outside where there is no room (Perez on Russell for example ) gets hit by someone on the normal racing line and the person on the inside gets the penalty. As you say these guys are at their peak. I'm an ordinary driver and could drive my hatchback around a racetrack all day long without touching a white line, it's about knowing the limits of yourself and your car. With these cars being so rude height sensitive the last thing you would expect is sticking half of the car up on a kerb which will affect the downforce. I agree with everything you say about "Fan" behaviour.
With all the tech in F1, can't we have instant, automatic white line detection? Give the driver feedback on the steering wheel the moment it happens, and any penalty instantly applied. That would save a lot of confusion.
They have sensors obviously that inform FIA when a cut has been detected. It's not like they have 10 men employed each following one corner exit to spot when cars cross the white line.
@@C3lloman Obviously. What you're describing is tool assisted stewarding. What I'm describing is fully automatic stewarding.
What is the false-positive/false-negative rate of that system? Is it like Hawkeye? Or do the sensors sometimes drift, or flake out?
We know drivers don't get instant feedback from this system, and the delay in applying the penalty to Perez in qualifying was absurd. So there's clearly a lot of space for improvement.
10:42 wait what?
I knew it about the gas pedal, but brakes too? How do they manage to not lock up when braking?
Every track should have solid walls directly on either side of the track limits. Self policing policy, you don't see laps being deleted for track limits in Monaco because if you cant keep the car in the lines you crash.
For that middle section of video, I didn't see the race, but it sure sounds like a mildly interesting two-car race day.
A sincere question here: if throttle and breaks are electronic activated, how a driver can feel that are air bubbles on the hydraulic system of the brakes? I mean, if I got it correctly, the brake pedal is not directly connected to the hydraulic system right? So how can they feel the air bubbles?
Are we all going to ignore the bit where it showed 40% of people eat spiders in their sleep?!? 🕷🛌
could you explain the difference between the old and new overtaking rules?
Instead of gravel, how about a thin strip of grass like they have at.... Interlagos, I think? It really discourages going off track because your tires get dirty, but you still have the tarmac runoff in case bad stuff happens.
In regards to the track limits (and to help out with user interaction :D)
It's definitely a driver issue. As someone who plays the F1 games a lot, league racing and such. Every time you go wide you get a warning, penalties go up and it will annoy you. But when you get it right, don't track extend to the end of narnia it's very satisfying.
(Yes I know that the F1 games and F1 irl is different but still. Practice makes perfect, AND DON'T TRACK EXTEND)
Bruh, “be aware if you are a group of men, you can be intimidating” what does this mean?
It means that only you know your true intentions at heart. So while to you you may know your actions are all in good fun, other people don't know that. So when your 'joking around' starts to get physical it can legitimately scare other people.
Most based video about F1. Honestly, great video!
Gimme those beautiful free body diagrams! Great work as always!
Its funny how the drivers complain about low visibility and all that but when they get multiple warnings are able to keep it clean after.
Regarding 6:30 The broadcast could just straight up rip the solution from the f1 games. Any drivers with a time penalty have a flag next to them with a +5 (etc) for the total amount of time their penalties add up to. A simple and effective solution to that problem
Re: where the problems is with track penalties; i think the fact that Perez's Q2 lap was only deleted after the session IS a massive stewarding problem. Especially given how frequently that happens.
The white lines are supposed to be clear and simple boundaries but the race adjudicators can't even accurately monitor them during a session and need teams to protest and point out breeches to them?
That really ought to be unacceptable imo
Hold up with the whole PSA segment about 'large groups of men can be intimidating' as it opens up a rabbit hole with many burrows within it.
like?
I do like the fact that the track is limited to the white lines
Well said, Stuart!
I think they should add negative camber to the the race tracks on the outside for at least the first little bit so they are punished for going wide but are not launched into the air
I've said it before, I'll say it again. The world does not revolve around F1, or even cars. Red Bull Ring is FIM homologated. Motorcycles race there. Negative camber will severely affect motorcycles, and almost ensure a crash for someone going wide or being forced off at full effort. It also runs the risk of accelerating any vehicle (And potentially rider) that is crashing or has crashed.
@@StarkRaven59 good, no one cares
@@KingofClubsMCDLXXXVIII If no one cares, why would Red Bull Ring themselves go through the expense of adding a chicane for MotoGP?
Idk about Ferrari winning on strategy. I think it's more about Leclerc leaving Verstappen in the dust so the Red Bull camp panicked and did a very misguided attempt at an undercut. Which ultimately saw Verstappen falling off the pace even worse. For all it's worth, I'm glad Charles finally won a race he deserved so much.
I also so want to see the timing tower penalty indicator. So hard to keep up otherwise. Can't be that hard to do.
is there a video where it explains the track limits and regulations? For example, doing what doesn't count for the time of that sector, and is there like one side of the car is over the line but the other side is not so it's still valid? I can't find such videos anywhere, I'd like to learn more about it
@@valerierodger7700 thank you very much for the info, explained it very well!
On this very occasion of Russell vs Perez i think Perez was at fault, he squeezed Russel on the inside while having room enough on the outside. Russell steered in completely if you check on camera, Perez just didnt anticipate his turning circle wide enough when trying to squeeze. i was sad to see the penalty on Russell
Imo the problem with track limits aren't the rules, the drivers or the track. It's the rule enforcement. There should be sensors in the tyres which can accurately detect whether a car is within track limits or not. Added to this we should get rid of the 3 strikes and you're out system. Instead there should be a penalty zone similar to the attack zone in FE, which is located at the inside of a corner exit that leads onto a long straight. This would result in an immediate and a bit less harsh time loss and the battles would continue on track instead of having penalties applied after the finish.
That's not a bad idea but I think it would be really hard to implement in reality. I wouldn't mind something like a "mini" VSC for track limit infringements though, as it's similar to your idea and doesn't require any modifications to the tracks. Something like "you have to drive X% slower for 2 seconds", with some mandatory throttle limiter like they already have for pit stops.
Chain bear actually talked about that in another video (I think the one "Why run wide at Parabolica?") in which he proposed having sensors which put the cars into "low energy" mode or something for a few seconds. The problem is that it creates a possibly substantial speed difference between cars, which could be dangerous. One idea could be to put special lights on the back of cars (much like energy recovery/wet weather lights) which start to flash a few seconds before the car gets put into a low energy mode and stays active until they're at regular power again. That gives chasing cars enough time to spot and avoid possible dangers. You might even have that penalty system deactivated on the first few laps (like DRS) just to be safe with all the cars so close together. Another issue with that might be when a driver gets forced off the track by another, they then would get punished twice basically for doing nothing wrong. But other than that, I find it an interesting idea for sure.
@@TheMentallord the problem with your idea is that there would have to be clearly defined penalty zones as cars just slowing down out of nowhere is just inherently dangerous. Also I think it would be difficult for the drivers to slow down for an exact amount of time which is why I'd prefer the penalty zone approach as it should be pretty consistent but also has some driver skill involved.
Having sensors within the tyres might be a bit tricky, but given that F1 cars have a fixed width anyway, you might as well put a single line of sensors in the plank, at the centerline of the car. Then the system determining whether a driver has crossed the white line or not can simply add or deduct half the car's width and come to the right conclusion.
But whichever way it's implemented, I think sensors are indeed the way to go. I think the main reason they're not installed yet is because it would also require sensors to be installed in the track surface at the edge of the white line, and while F1 as a sport can easily mandate sensors to be included in the cars and the teams will just follow suit, it's going to be significantly harder to convince circuits to do the same, especially if you're making them pay for it themselves.
@@rjfaber1991 I don't think mandating it for circuits should be too big of a problem as they already pay to be featured on the F1 calendar
For a second I thought “Wierd-Littelbürst” was a town in Austria 0:24
Keep enforcing them like they are and you can bet the drivers will adjust
Can you do a video on "push mode" and what is? Why aren't they "pushing" all of the time?
Fly by wire would for me also include the option to reset 0% and 100%, and everything in between (throttle mapping). So not sur why this was such a problem
10:41 Are you 100% sure front breaks are "fly by wire"?
Damn it. The first race weekend i missed this year and here i am learning it's the juciest one yet. -_-
Man, i was worried about you. Hopefully you will cover up silverstone and canada too.
Ok, you had covid. Get well soon, big fan of the channel. Love that you say what hey need to hear!