Austrian GP Talking Points | Track Limits, Ferrari Strategy, Fan Behaviour
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- Опубліковано 11 лип 2022
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The Austrian Grand Prix was an exciting race of strategy and keeping it on the track. And keeping it on the track was a lot harder than usual. Here we discuss whether it's worth getting in a fuss over track limits, how Ferrari beat Red Bull and how fans need to behave themselves.
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6:28 MotoGP (for once) is ahead of F1 in this regard, as they have introduced icons on the timing tower just as described. MotoGP, lacking pit stops, has a "long lap" penalty which is an extra strip of asphalt on the outside of a corner, that riders are forced to take. This is roughly equivalent to a time penalty and it's worked well so far.
They have a gray triangle with a '!' symbol when a rider has a track limits warning, a yellow circle with a '!' symbol when someone has an untaken penalty, and a magnifying glass when a rider is under investigation. Nifty system imo.
MotoGP has a consistency advantage because they run on two narrow tyres, so they can use sensors to detect track limits, and even then it’s very easy to spot track limits due to the tyres. And the long-lap penalty is only 1.5-2.5 seconds extra, it’s enough for atleast Moto2 and Moto3 to drop you 10-15 spots due to much closer racing.
The long lap is a great solution and i so wonder if it would work in F1.
@@matgee8892 F1 would need to change almost all circuits, when a drive through is already a viable solution
I like that magnifying glass symbol, that's clever.
I don’t know about Europe but event staffs are low paying jobs. Expecting those people to handle abusive people and act like pseudo security on top of their regular jobs are really unrealistic. Unless those event organizers are willing to pay the staff more to have more qualified people.
All these events have security staff, sometimes it's off duty police, sometimes it's hired security, but they are always there. This is who people should go find if they see an abusive group. It is quite literally their job to handle the situation. I agree, asking the ticket checker or someone cleaning up trash to intervene is unrealistic.
If the events need to hire more security-rated staff, or more regular staff to give them the time they need to go get security staff (or both),in order to properly protect their fans, then that's what they need to do. To not do so is unacceptable.
This is also part of the fucked up financials of F1, a track has to pay F1 for them to come, so you basically have to hire out F1, but then you've also got to hire, or temporarily enslave some marshals for the race. The fact that track marshaling is a volunteer position is a travesty, F1 is worth billions of dollars, asking people to safeguard their events for free is bullshit, and they're putting their lives on the line to do it. How many marshal deaths have we had in the last 10 years?
In the uk, it remains the responsibility of the organisers to have sufficient security staff to manage the event. It isn't like formula 1 doesn't generate vast revenues. Organisers will always do the minimum they can get away with as it's cheaper. When it goes wrong, it's too late. Look at wembley or more recently wireless. They ought to be held to account more. At football matches there are sufficient stewards to make interventions and ejections. Safety staff actively monitor the fans. Ejections against arrests can be 10:1 some times. F1 ought to insist on higher standards. It makes its money playing on rivalries and heros and villains, but needs to better manage the toxic atmosphere that is clearly creating.
Stewards & Marshalls often low paid/volunteers but they're the grafters of the event.
Security is often contracted in. I have worked event security and paid hansomly for it but we're expected to handle these people
The best part definitely has to be Mick's pace and defence during the sprint and race
i spent the race weekend at my grandparents, because they live really close to the race track and of course I talked with my grandpa about the grand prix and the turn 4 incident (we are both red bull fans). And to my utter surprise he went to the basement and pulled out the original blueprints for the race track from 1994. But not just one, there were multiple blueprints with different variations. Those blueprints were from the planning phase, before the track was approved by the FIA.
There was a blueprint, where corner 4 had a constant radius and another wacky one, where the corner 4 was actually a right-left-right combo.
These need sharing.
@@JohnSmithShields I would love to, but he wouldn't let me scan them, because at the time of the creation of the blueprints, they were buisness secrets of the FIA and you could get in a lot of trouble for sharing them.
But now 28 years later it should be okay, but does someone know for sure? I couldn't find any online ressources on this topic.
Oh, and also the first corner was in the first iteration a hairpin followed immediatly by a sharp left, but it was dropped, because it ruined the flow of the track.
And corner 3 was supposed to go a bit further up the hill to avoid the strong elevation change mid corner.
My grandpa actually consultet with Niki Lauda and Gerhard Berger and asked them about the corners.
Just for context, my grandpa did basically all the planning of the track (but he had to comply to the FIA regulations, so he didn't have a lot of freedom for the basic layout). But after the blueprints were submitted and approved by the FIA Herman Tilke took over for the actuall construction of the track, so thats why the track was "rebuilt by Tilke", when you look at the history books.
@@nebelwaffel8174 thanks for the information, hopefully they can be shared at some point. I'm amazed the curcuit aren't interested in them, as part of their history.
@@JohnSmithShields oh, they made about 10 copies of the blueprints, one for every higher official at the FIA. I wouldn't be surprised, if red bull got their hands on one of them.
@@nebelwaffel8174 Servus Nebel, sollte nach so langer Zeit kein Problem sein, außer es gibt irgendwo spezielle Verträge darüber, die gehen aber eigentlich nie so lange.
Quelle: arbeite in der Schutzrecht-Abteilung einer großen Firma in Österreich. :)
Drivers: We want consistent application of the rules.
FIA: Track limits.
Drivers: Wait, not those rules.
IKR pundits too were complaining about the inconsistency of track limits specifically all of the last few seasons most said, just keep it simple, the white lines are the limits, you must keep part of your car on or inside those white lines at all times. At Austria pundits were complaining about the farcical number of penalties! For once that isn't the stewards fault, the drivers just need to drive within the lines, if they drove over the lines that much at Monaco we'd have half the field not finishing! So they are more than capable of doing it.
apparently they are doing track limits on all corners? i could have sworn i saw so many drivers go past the line in the middle sector or am i just seeing things
Let's be honest. A fresh driver that tries to get their driving license has to be able to fit their car in the lines. They also can't see the lines near their wheels. Drive further away if you can't see them. The argument that potentially the best drivers in the world can't... eh.
+1 to penalty graphics.
Yeah especially at 150kph - 200kph. Easy to see the lines in the corner
do they have to do it at 240 km/h tho?
@@dmaharry7976 that's the purpose of track limits...go only as fast as you can take it, it's the balance for much faster cars than the rest of the field,
Cont
@@alessiocarlevaro6934 no, but F1 drivers aren't new drivers with their learners permit. They're the best drivers in the world with years of experience going at high speed into corners.
They manage to hit the apex at Bruxelles at Spa alright, they know where their wheels are, they know what's on the track, they walk it at least once in a weekend just to find little cambers and areas they could be faster. They know where the track is and where their car is.
10:41: The brakes are not fully brake by wire. The rear is disconnected and electronically controlled to balance between MGU-K and physical brakes, but the front brakes are physically connected to the brake pedal with no electronic assists.
Glad someone made this comment. This is the reason the drivers need to have such strong legs.
The Idea to enforce Track limits by a Bollard was done in Formula E season 4. They put a Bollard on the inside of a chicane and if you touched it your lap was invalid.
The Bollard became a quick meme, as almost every driver hit the bollard or run entirely over it.
The commentators made the Bollard famous as "Bob the Bollard" and after one Race it was never used again.
Well if cutting the track is that effective then maybe it's worth the penalty thus why everyone hitting it anyway.
Honestly I think the bollard was just too close there, Formula E chicanes are already really tight so you'd have to slow down way too much. It's not like tracks limits are a problem in FE anyway, since there are walls most of the time lol
Would have also been interested in your take on the stewards (once again) being shockingly slow when deploying VSC/SC. It was so obvious that the Sainz fire would need at least a VSC, yet it took almost a minute for them to deploy it, putting the marshals in a tricky position, as Sainz needed help, but the track was still live.
That would be the race director, actually, not the stewards. But yeah, it was very slow once more.
I have no issue with increased numbers of penalties. eventually the drivers will get the memo and stop pushing it so much on the trickier corners.
It's 100% in the drivers. The rules and the circuits are fine. Don't panic as soon as we have a race with lots of penalties. This is a temporary outcome of what we've wanted for years - simple, consistent rules. It's just taking drivers some time to adapt, which is nothing to worry about.
100%
As much as I'm used to piling on the stewards for crap calls, the drivers are paid to be the best in the world and in highly contested seats. Drive in the lines.
5 seconds is a very small price compared to driving on the grawel or kissing the walls
I would've loved to hear your opinion about the British GP; Zhou's crash and what you think about the roll hoop breaking off the car (although I can understand if you'd want to wait until a official FIA investigation is concluded), as well as the issue with people forcing each other off track and not getting penalized (maybe your opinion about what should or shouldn't be acceptable in that context, not only what the rule book actually says about it). Would be super interested in a video of that sort. Is there any chance you might way in on that?
Always look forward to these - thanks Chainbear!
This lap time deletion is actually fun to watch. It maybe problematic and difficult for drivers, but as fans, we know there is a stake for those we love to see racing
Glad you are back mate like always great video love it
I hope you feel better soon, Stuart.
I love the "stay in the white lines" thing. If it was so hard to see the lines, as Sky kept trying to claim, they'd have all crashed out on the first lap at Monaco.
What I have always wondered: What is the reason tracks don't just put a strip of maybe one meter width which contains a low grip material like gravel or gras right next to the edges of the track and put tarmac on the rest of the run off area? That way drivers are still punished for going wide but there is still enough space for them to slow down and avoid high speed impacts. and with only small strips of gras they should be reasonably easy to maintain compared to big fields. Is there a reason for this? I also think it would be safer than sausage curbs since cars won't get launched into low earth orbit by a bit of grass.
The problem that comes to mind immediately with this idea is, if you have a car out of control going sidewards into this strip of soft material, there's a chance the wheels will dig in. When the car reaches the hard tarmac, if the wheels are below the level of that harder material, there's potential for the wheels to catch on the lip and flip the car.
If you drop only a rear wheel there you might cause a spin, which is much more dangerous than a driver just running wide
Some tracks already do that, iirc Silverstone has slipery astro-turf lining the outside of the curbs, before the tarmac run-offs
@@bigb333 but that could be solved by having the tarmac gently coming up again, couldn’t it? Like not having it come up at a 90 degree angle but rather a gentle slope.
@@nhancao4790 do you know the corners or is it on all/most of them?
great segment on the social issues at races! really enjoyed you taking the time to bring this up and using your platform!
Agreed.
Yeah I'm going to finally stop molesting women because of this video.
Your videos are so good! Looking forward to them every week!!
Excellent video from start to finish.
Glad he is feeling better! Was in serious shambles without a video after the British GP
Always enjoy these, thank you!
Feel better soon Chain Bear!
Nice to see you back, I was starting to worry. I hope vacation was good and the Covid cough goes away soon.
Such an amazing race, great stuff from the midfield to battle for 1st and I’m really happy for Haas, Mick, and Kmag looks like things are starting to pick up for them!
hey right on for that section on harrassment at the end there, thank you
I'm glad you're back! Missed you after Silverstone... Great video, as always!
Fantastic as always!
Great statement on the end!
Good to have you back. I hope you recover very soon.
Really like the +5 sec tabs,, great idea
Thanks for breaking it all down
I always love watching these videos after the race. Somehow got concerned if you have stopped making them. Thank you for the content. Get well soon!
Get well soon, we need your content.
Welcome back! Hope you have a quick recovery.
you need to upload more often bro, your vids are so great
Excited to see new video on leclerc's pedal after yesterday!! This is some big problem they're having, man
I only get excited to hear what chainbear has to say about things. No other channel comes close
Great comparison of a race weekend, some controversial talking points AND a life advice on how to protect vulnerable people in one video. Great stuff
Gimme those beautiful free body diagrams! Great work as always!
Thank you for an honest assessment of the behavioural issues at the races. You've said more than Formula 1 on the endemic issues, fair play to you mate. Great video as always 👍
And offered more action than empty slogans that accomplish nothing like "End Racism"
@@guilhermeodai Absolutely right there!
@@guilhermeodai i was cringing every time they did the little end racism silence thing at the start of each race, im sure it makes people more aware but f1 cant claim the are helping just by doing that especially when they put money over everything else with some specific new tracks that i wont name
I've always thought they should just make the green kerbs the same width as the cars (which they often aren't), that gives the drivers visibility and means that you'll never get penalties on corners with gravel, as there were a few cases of track limit violations on corners with gravel, as the drivers were off the track as defined by the lines, on the green kerbs, but still not in the gravel, as the kerbs are wider than the cars
F1 cars constantly change size through the seasons.. Also other classes use these tracks. So you would constantly be adjusting these which would get expensive and intrusive.
Why not have grass?
@@JakandDaxterAddict i am not entirely certain, but I'd say that it's a safety thing. And would depend on corner to corner.
Tyres have very little traction on grass.
Though I have heard in the past, that given everyone breaks the track limits constantly, when its grass/dir, divots appear, which become pot holes which become problematic over time.
Chain Bear, I love your videos. I recommend them to my friends who want to get into F1. Quick question: what software do you use for your animated infographics? They're stunning
The other reason that tracks don't like gravel traps is that for track days, which make the tracks a lot of their money, most people don't like gravel for the reasons mentioned, but also gravel can cause minor damage to cars, paint chips, dents etc, even potential damage to the undercarriage of the car, and for people driving their own cars they very much want to avoid this, so will avoid tracks with gravel at tricky corners where they're more likely to go off, hurting the track's bottom line
Just want to quickly say "Thank you"
This is the first video that I see talking about the harassment as a wider issue instead of just throwing all max fans under the bus as the big baddies.
It is good to hear there are still people who know this is not just an incident that was RedBull ring exclusive and in Zandvoort it will happen again.
It is an issue that has been here for ages and the worst thing is that some of the people publically stating they were vicitms of the the harassement, lied about it and nothing really happened.
Making it all even worse to me.
But great video.
Good info :D
Well said, Stuart!
The problem with Checo was not the penalty. It was his fault, he went off track limits.
What seemed really ugly to me was to keep silent, don't do anything, let Checo do Q3 and after all that, apply the penalty so late.
It's not only the fact that Pérez wasted a set of tyres, but also the fact that the one driver who got eleventh place in Q2 couldn't run Q3 even after the penalty for Checo.
For me, the late penalty is a race director and stewarding problem. They took too long in enforcing the rules. And if they are too late, they can’t or shouldn’t enforce it in this way. Maybe even Q3 may only start if all investigations of Q2 have been judged.
For that middle section of video, I didn't see the race, but it sure sounds like a mildly interesting two-car race day.
I’m sorry to hear about your illness l am lucky to have avoided covid but it’s made some of the people I love very unwell. I hope you’re making a complete recovery. Thanks for the video. I may be in the minority but I would prefer to see track limits enforced consistently at all tracks even when it’s inconvenient. I’m sure the drivers will do better next year if they know they will be punished. It’s a shame that they didn’t sort out deleting times in qualifying consistently though. I was listening on the radio and they saw that Perez was out of the line so it shouldn’t have been hard. Thanks again for sharing your opinions
Great vid. One other thing regarding fans, they really need to stop lighting flares on the first lap. It must ruin visibility for the drivers and is just plain dangerous
Nice vid.
Brilliant is not just the sponsor, it's the content 👍🏼
Chain🐻 is such a good guy. Always speaks empathy and equality in a kind way that’s respected.
I also so want to see the timing tower penalty indicator. So hard to keep up otherwise. Can't be that hard to do.
How about adding the plastic flappy reflector things they use on highway construction sites to help mark the troublesome turns? It would have minimal damage on impact and it would be clear to everyone if they hit it.
You forgot about one thing with the fans. Keep the fucking flares at home!
F1 should implement an anonymous text service to report bad behaviour at tracks so they can do it discreetly, they have a similar system in place in the T20 Cricket here in England.
@@MarcoZ1ITA1 yes it also stops the problem of people going up to stewards and potentially causing more issues
04:39 - This is a pretty good reason to have more teams in F1. If a car or two that become DNFs because of gravel then it is not much of a problem since we will still have a sufficient number of cars running (because more would start the race) to have a decent show. Andretti should be accepted immediately
Damn it. The first race weekend i missed this year and here i am learning it's the juciest one yet. -_-
I'd put a step down of a few inches where the car's outer tyre would drop down the step if the inner wheel were over the limit. The step should be sufficient to make it almost impossible to get the car back on track without remaining off track and passing through a maze. Either that or rotating knives.
Red Bull Ring is FIM homologated. Motorcycles can and do race there. Putting ridges or steps on the track have a decent chance of upsetting a motorcycle and resulting in a more dangerous crash.
I am a fool.
@@StarkRaven59 And how are they with the knives?
@@mutleyomuttlesson2799 Somewhere around Road Rash, I'd reckon.
Update on this video after the 2023 race please??
With all the tech in F1, can't we have instant, automatic white line detection? Give the driver feedback on the steering wheel the moment it happens, and any penalty instantly applied. That would save a lot of confusion.
They have sensors obviously that inform FIA when a cut has been detected. It's not like they have 10 men employed each following one corner exit to spot when cars cross the white line.
@@C3lloman Obviously. What you're describing is tool assisted stewarding. What I'm describing is fully automatic stewarding.
What is the false-positive/false-negative rate of that system? Is it like Hawkeye? Or do the sensors sometimes drift, or flake out?
We know drivers don't get instant feedback from this system, and the delay in applying the penalty to Perez in qualifying was absurd. So there's clearly a lot of space for improvement.
could you explain the difference between the old and new overtaking rules?
10:42 wait what?
I knew it about the gas pedal, but brakes too? How do they manage to not lock up when braking?
you're the best. just the best.
I think Sainz’s incident and the unreasonable grief the marshal took afterwards is another example of why F1 needs a travel safety team. These corner marshals are usually volunteers or local firemen, having a core group of experts in the cars, like the chase car doctor is for the drivers, spread out amongst the marshal posts, plus in response vehicles (yes, I know that’s more of a US mode, but I’m thinking combining the best of both ways) around the track, would improve safety greatly.
Instead of gravel, how about a thin strip of grass like they have at.... Interlagos, I think? It really discourages going off track because your tires get dirty, but you still have the tarmac runoff in case bad stuff happens.
10:41That's only partially true. In F1 BBW, the rear brakes are electronically operated, but the front brakes are still mechanically connected to the master cylinder.
Think he was just simplifying, he's aware of this as he has a really detailed video talking about the brake system where he mentions just that.
Can you bring back Fantasy GP please? So many of us enjoyed it
is there a video where it explains the track limits and regulations? For example, doing what doesn't count for the time of that sector, and is there like one side of the car is over the line but the other side is not so it's still valid? I can't find such videos anywhere, I'd like to learn more about it
@@valerierodger7700 thank you very much for the info, explained it very well!
A sincere question here: if throttle and breaks are electronic activated, how a driver can feel that are air bubbles on the hydraulic system of the brakes? I mean, if I got it correctly, the brake pedal is not directly connected to the hydraulic system right? So how can they feel the air bubbles?
Fly by wire would for me also include the option to reset 0% and 100%, and everything in between (throttle mapping). So not sur why this was such a problem
For a second I thought “Wierd-Littelbürst” was a town in Austria 0:24
A big sticking point is that they need cameras that clearly show when over the line or not... that way there's no arguing and all can just get in with it.
We finally have consistent track limits rules and the drivers still complain. Thought they wanted the white lines to define the track...
I think the problem with fan behavior is also connected with alcohol consumption. Honestly in some areas of austrian gp fan zones it looked like in the pub at closing hours. I'm not for complete prohibition, I can understand one or two beers, but ten? (judging by the amount of cans left behind by those groups). I don't think there is a solution for this problem.
I don't think so, no matter how much alcohol I drink I don't get violent, I get goofy and clumsy but not violent towards other people. If you can't handle alcohol don't drink.
Can you do a video on "push mode" and what is? Why aren't they "pushing" all of the time?
The track is the track and the whole car should race on the track. The rumble strips are not the track. Back in the day, there was the track, and then the grass. The cars should race that way now.
Man, i was worried about you. Hopefully you will cover up silverstone and canada too.
Ok, you had covid. Get well soon, big fan of the channel. Love that you say what hey need to hear!
Agree 👍
I do like the fact that the track is limited to the white lines
6:05 The problem is we already do this and it's silly. At the last corner at the Red Bull ring we have an extension to the kerb that also has an extension to it also. And it looks terrible
Every F1 weekend we go through this controversy over track limits which could be fixed by using grass and gravel and removing all these extensions to the kerbs. If it's a maintenance issue then maybe instead of charging the circuits $25 squillion to host the race we just charge them $2million which would help
Its funny how the drivers complain about low visibility and all that but when they get multiple warnings are able to keep it clean after.
Saw ya on Sky Sports with Naomi Schiff! Glad to have ya back!
Thank you for that message at the end, before the sponsored one obviously
It's really scary going to a sporting event especially if you're in the minority be it in the wider world or even just being a fan of a different driver than most others
It obviously needs to stop and it's absolutely stupid to pay all that money and just making someone else feel threatened or intimidated intentionally
Hold up with the whole PSA segment about 'large groups of men can be intimidating' as it opens up a rabbit hole with many burrows within it.
like?
I like track limits enforcement. It has been taken advantage of the last couple years and there will be growing pains. But these are the "best racing drivers in the world" - they should and will figure out how to stay within the boundaries
10:41 Are you 100% sure front breaks are "fly by wire"?
Regarding 6:30 The broadcast could just straight up rip the solution from the f1 games. Any drivers with a time penalty have a flag next to them with a +5 (etc) for the total amount of time their penalties add up to. A simple and effective solution to that problem
maybe a hot take but i think 20 of the best drivers in the world should be able to keep their car inside the line, it's kinda a skill of it's own and something a driver has to work around.
Like i don't see anyone remove the walls in monaco for example...
if you push too far you crash.
It's kinda a risk vs. reward thing.
The only meaningful exception i see is to drop it when two or more cars are in an infight because it otherwise would discourage good racing.
I think they should go further with track limits, it should be the outside wheels that can't cross the line then we wouldn't get situations like we have had recently where someone tries to overtake around the outside where there is no room (Perez on Russell for example ) gets hit by someone on the normal racing line and the person on the inside gets the penalty. As you say these guys are at their peak. I'm an ordinary driver and could drive my hatchback around a racetrack all day long without touching a white line, it's about knowing the limits of yourself and your car. With these cars being so rude height sensitive the last thing you would expect is sticking half of the car up on a kerb which will affect the downforce. I agree with everything you say about "Fan" behaviour.
I think they should add negative camber to the the race tracks on the outside for at least the first little bit so they are punished for going wide but are not launched into the air
I've said it before, I'll say it again. The world does not revolve around F1, or even cars. Red Bull Ring is FIM homologated. Motorcycles race there. Negative camber will severely affect motorcycles, and almost ensure a crash for someone going wide or being forced off at full effort. It also runs the risk of accelerating any vehicle (And potentially rider) that is crashing or has crashed.
@@StarkRaven59 good, no one cares
@@KingofClubsMCDLXXXVIII If no one cares, why would Red Bull Ring themselves go through the expense of adding a chicane for MotoGP?
Most based video about F1. Honestly, great video!
10:10 I thought the pedals hung down from above not coming up from the floor? I assume this is just for illustration purposes and far easier to litterally illustrate.
Check out Norris's pedal cam from the British Grand Prix on the F1 UA-cam channel. They do indeed pivot from the floor.
In regards to the track limits (and to help out with user interaction :D)
It's definitely a driver issue. As someone who plays the F1 games a lot, league racing and such. Every time you go wide you get a warning, penalties go up and it will annoy you. But when you get it right, don't track extend to the end of narnia it's very satisfying.
(Yes I know that the F1 games and F1 irl is different but still. Practice makes perfect, AND DON'T TRACK EXTEND)
This can easily be fixed. 3-5 meters of grass/gravel bordering the track before the mile of asphalt runoff would encourage drivers to keep ALL 4 wheels on the track. I'm kind of fed up with this "well, 2 cm of my inside tires are on the track, so just ignore the 99.995% of the rest of my car that's off track." Like you said... these are supposed to be the best drivers in the world. They should be able to keep the car on track. All 4 wheels should have to be on track.
Isn't turn 4 cambered outside, it makes it even more difficult.
Hey man don't want to be rude but did you meant monster or master in the thumbnail as in Ferrari master it currently it says Ferrari monster it??
Every track should have solid walls directly on either side of the track limits. Self policing policy, you don't see laps being deleted for track limits in Monaco because if you cant keep the car in the lines you crash.