HMRC Wants To Tax Your ISA
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- Опубліковано 2 чер 2024
- HMRC believes fractional shares should not be inside ISAs. They have stated this to brokers, and now some of the UK's biggest investment platforms are asking their users to fight this decision, which would be very damaging to millions of portfolios.
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Links from the video:
The original story
www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/d...
The freetrade post
community.freetrade.io/t/we-n...
The 1998 legislation
www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1...
Timestamps:
00:00 - Concern
00:36 - What's going on?
01:21 - The regulations
02:39 - The ESMA
03:55 - Comments from trading 212
05:08 - Comments from HMRC
06:40 - The worst case
07:39 - Who owes the tax?
08:48 - will this happen?
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Thanks for raising this Damien! I have written to my MP. I have pasted my mail below if anyone would like to use my template to do the same!
Dear ,
As a member of your constituency I feel compelled to write to you to ask for your help in working with the HMRC to about turn their appalling, out of touch, policy direction with regard to disallowing Stocks and Share ISAs to hold fractional shares.
Our very own chancellor has said many times recently that he wants to “simplify ISAs” and “encourage more people to invest using stocks and shares ISAs”. Yet at the same time the HMRC is undermining the public’s trust in the very vehicle the chancellor wants more people to make use of.
I’m all for having regulation that protect the public from harmful financial practices, but genuine fractional share holding in an ISA offers opportunity to the general public to invest in companies they wouldn’t otherwise be able to afford to.
Take AstraZeneca for example, one of our country’s success stories over the past few years. With a share price of over £100, without fractional shares, investing in them for most ordinary people would be too much risk.
Government need to step in and tell HMRC to adjust their decades old, out of touch policy, rather than just enforce it without thinking about the best thing for the people.
Thank you very much for your time.
Thank you for sharing! I will pin this.
Awesome, thanks again. Note that my MP is a Tory so you’d probably need a different message to a non-Tory MP.
My MP's Rishi so... let's give it a go.
@@DamienTalksMoney let’s face it HMRC and the rest of the fleecing monkeys are just fucktards trying to squeeze the little guy, thanks for sharing this much appreciated
Thanks. I’ve used this to send to my MP also
If HMRC does this, and the government doesn’t step in, it will be a disgrace. I’ll never vote for any party that doesn’t fight this. It’s simply unfair.
I would be so shocked if this actually happens. But even if it doesn’t what a colossal waste of time and resources… Hmrc should be doing something better with their time
This is a manufactured "problem" so that Jeremy £unt can swoop in and save the day and say the tories are on the side of investors and we're going to put all this mess straight! (and I'm sure it will also somehow have been Labours fault in the first place)
But unless you have lots of 99% of high value shares like berkshire the capital gains tax on those fractions are likely going to be under your capital gains allowance anyway so for most people no tax to pay unless your a pensioner or someone who is currently using all of their allowance as it is
*OH MY GOD THE EVIL B***RDS* taxing unearned income the same as the money people WORK HARD FOR...
How is it unfair that wealthy people should pay tax on income...???
HMRC is the government they won't step in because its their brain child of Jeremy Hunt.
@@DamienTalksMoneyyeah, like allocate the £2500 payment they have from me so they can stop wasting everyone's time chasing me for money we have already paid!
I think we have to remember that Fractional shares are more likely to be bought by people who cannot afford full shares and therefore are poorer. It's a way of the government doing a non-progressive tax, which will not hurt their portfolios but will effect those who are much poorer than them.
The thing about poorer investors, often at the start of their investing life, is the important point here.
But, honestly, I doubt that has occurred to them. The level of competency is not exactly stratospheric in government at the moment.
Rishi will not care, only interested in helping wealthy people.
I think you are right I do think this is a calculation by them that poorer investors are hit, we've seen similar tax changes that only hit the lower end investors in other sectors. In Buy to Let they hit the smaller investors ignoring investors who had their larger portfolios in a Ltd company. It's all a calculation to hit the majority of the smaller investors, while leaving the richer ones untouched.
To be honest, I'm not surprised if this is going to happen.
My parents are from Eastern Europe and I learned from them how governments used to punish low incomes as they tried to scrap together money.
UK left the EU; and the UK needs to pay back hundreds of millions to the EU. The UK economy is on a downwards spiral and it is accelerating - this means they need money, so it is easier for them to first go after the ones with savings.
Normal saving accounts already useless, so I put my money into a Stocks and Share ISAs a few years ago and just let it sit there, however even they stopped making good money in the recent months.
So, with this step, they will ruin it, and I will consider moving my money, be it not a lot, out of the UK.
But, if a lot of small savers (sub £20k) start moving the money out of the UK, this will trigger a ripple effect in the finance system.
Yes, it's absolutely disgusting.
The 'disagreements' that HMRC has with agencies, brokers etc are always in the direction of taking more tax from working people. This country is becoming harder and harder to justify living in.
Thanks for brining this to attention Damien. HMRC going for more tax grabs from hard working normal people. Too afraid to go after the big fish and punishing the little guy. I hope more and more people catch on this cynical mindset.
Very true... they mess with small people ONLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Blame the loon hunt
The big fish are uncatchable. This is why they always go for the little ones.
confusing
Damien is the financially literate big brother that we all need! (and never had) 😊❤
Embarrassing from HMRC as this would only really affect the smaller investor who buys fractional shares, not anybody with any significant dividends or realised gains that would be the ones paying tax anyway! Thanks for keeping people informed dude. The HMRC hold music gave me PTSD though being an accountant 😂
its designed that way as obviously smaller investors can kick up less of a fuss...
Poor people aren't supposed to save money though, duuuuhh!!! Even if it is pennies ffs.
Honestly, I think this is getting worse and worse for UK investors. In the last few years, in a general investment account the capital gain free allowance went from 12k down to 6k (more or less), the tax free dividend allowance went from 5k to 2k and now it's 1k. And now they want to put their dirty hands into the ISA's as well, what a shame! I wouldn't be surprised if in the near future more limitations would arise, making it even harder for hard working people to save and invest.
Yeah, the conservatives, the party of low tax and financial responsibility. What a laugh.
Look on the bright side, your Cayman Island, Singapore, Jersey, tax haven accounts are still safe due to Brexit. Someone has to pay for the train wreck economy, middle income investors have been chosen.
Thank you for your selfless approach to helping people who are clueless or not that versed on financial matters.
You are very welcome! We are all in this together and I’m just glad I can help at all
I admire your youthful optimism that if HMRC had answered, you would get to speak to someone who knew about this issue and why they are taking this approach.
Haha I actually thought I would get some good soundbites of a person on the other end of the phone who didn't have a clue what I was going on about.. But even that was naive.
@@DamienTalksMoneythe problem was you gave up after an hour, the queue to speak to HMRC only starts AFTER an hour on hold. I did once get through after 45 minutes, what a glorious day that was
Thanks, this was a brilliant post Damien! You simplified and summarised a complex issue and championed the small investor against the bureaucratic might of HMRC. Yes they should be spending their resources and time tackling tax evaders amongst the wealthy rather than discouraging and complicating the already stressful lives of small investors who are simply trying to build some semblance of financial security against a backdrop of falling real incomes and income and VAT taxes on ordinary people. I have therefore sent this thank you and would urge others who feel similarly to do the same.
Thank you so much for this very generous!
Thanks for doing this. Absolute disgrace from HRMC to potentially give thousands of people a tax bill on a technicality, let alone the future implications
Completely agree with your stance damo! What is going on with government/official bodies at the moment?! How can HMRC suddenly decide they don't like fractional shares in ISAs and how can the ONS suddenly decide the UK economy is doing better??? It's embarrassing that these bodies regulate and measure a country that is supposed to have world leading financial institutions.
Thanks a lot for this Damien! I love that you've unpacked this all for us!
I never clicked that like button with such enthusiasm. Thanks for the great content Damien.
Agree with your ending so much, Damien. Thanks for making the situation clearer for me.
What a fantastic video, thank you for your work and using your time and intellect to digest and explain this to everyone!
Great content, not a single word out of place
Absolutely brilliant video Damien. Your best one yet.
I saw this in the news a week or so. It’s utterly disgusting. HMRC are going to really blow things if they do this. Why the hell should I face a tax bill for investing in an ISA but people like Gary Lineker and Loraine Kelly get away with sheltering their vast income from income tax while I pay paye and when trying to take advantage of an ISA see my investment possible get clobbered for tax.
The only hope we have is that the government who are looking at making the law better for stocks and shares isa are getting HMRC to put this out so they can “come to the rescue” and make new legislation “legalising” it. Synovial but I wouldn’t put anything past this government.
Only thing stopping this video being perfect is the lack of cat in it.
Keep it up mate you’ve smashed it with this one.
Just love they way this lad comes across we need more of this stright talking of important issues thank you damon👍
Amen! Great video! Love your stuff, as always.
Another great take Damo! 👍🏻 This country is a total shower. Nothing works, and now these clowns who don’t work much either (an hour on the phone£ are sticking their oar into an easy cash grab. 🤦🏼♂️
Great video! I get how frustrating it is when the government suddenly changes rules that affect our investments. Thanks for explaining it!
Hit the nail on the head. Love your content.
Love the rant at the end. Absolutely spot on
HMRC has a long history of bizarre and hypocritical behaviour.
Victoria Atkins is the Financial Secretary to the Treasury and the minister responsible for HMRC and could make this issue disappear overnight if she choose to.
Not really, the rules haven't been followed so could make it so going forward but not so easily in the past
@@n2s8e6w4I do not think that the rules as mentioned in the video (assuming there are not other rules) make it obvious that fractional shares are invalid for ISAs. There is much wiggle room for interpretation.
@@mikel8850 Nonsense, HMRC are capable of interpreting the law without the need to go to court. By definition they have just done that by stating fractional shares cannot be held in an ISA…that’s their interpretation, because fractional shares didn’t even exist when the original law was written.
@@steve3585they are also capable of misinterpreting the law. Probably more so.
I bet its that cow that's at it
I love the passion and movement you've started. Go on lad!
Absolutely amazing video! Thank you for this and all your excellent content.
We must fight this
Thank you so much for this Damien. Hugely informative assessment. You are a star!
Thank you Lorna
Great work Damien, thanks for the update!
Great breakdown of the issue at hand, While I am all for investor protections I feel the regulators in the UK are not only damaging investor trust and confidence by there incompetence around the sudden change in regulation like this and second also reducing the choice for UK investors to participate in the market not only shares and stock but crypto currency is also being targeted. They are pushing investors off-shore people lose trust in the system supposed to be put in place to protect them when it looks very much like a money grab for taxes once again.
Thanks for taking the time to make this video!
Excellent breakdown.
It will be a disgrace if this allowed to happen
Thank you Damien, you are priceless source of financial information for UK. Keep up great work.
Thanks for putting some clarity behind this. 👍🏾
*THANK YOU for speaking out loud about this scandalous approach by HMRC* . _subscribed_
Great video as always Damien and appreciate you throwing this into the limelight for the rest of us. Yet another example of how this country and its love of regulations & excessive red tape is stripping its citizens of more and more.
I mean, to play devils advocate, in the event that a broker were to fail in a 2008 style liquidity crisis, would the current arrangements for fractional shares provide protection for consumers? Ultimately it’s just a contract between you and the broker. You don’t own the share. That’s the argument being made here. You don’t own it so it can’t be held in an ISA. OEICs required new legislation as owning fractions of company wasn’t possible. Fractional shares are just avoiding that reality and it’s no wonder it’s coming to ahead now.
@@MikeTT120
Thank for sharing this and you are correct their are concerns around fractional shares but ownership is a loose concept in the world of finance, pretty much everything is held with some other custodian.
The CASS rules require all shares both whole and fractional to be segregated. So if a broker goes bust that should all be there. If not then there is the FSCS. If the above rules are being followed, what is the issue with fractional agreements?
@@DamienTalksMoneyThat’s my point really - do we have assurance that these fractional arrangements are meeting the requirements of CASS? If we’ve got ISA Managers telling HMRC that they’re running the schemes properly and now it turns out they aren’t by offering something that can’t exist under current legislation then there’s some doubt around that surely? There must be a good reason the older providers (Vanguard, Halifax Share Dealing, etc) don’t offer fractional shares still despite the newcomers eating into their fee income.
Y’all be the next Russel brand 😂😂😂😂 shhhhhhhh don’t talk sense it’s not allowed anymore
Thank you so much for all your hard work Damien. This video is truly fantastic.
Preach Damien! Great video. More people's attention needs to be drawn to this. They halve our Capital Gains allowance and now they want to dig their grubby paws into our ISAs too
They just need to tax billionaires
No, they just need to cut spending, especially on military
Billionaires just put their money elsewhere, as they rightly should. Government needs massive cuts.
Billionaires pay politicians to turn a blind eye to their wealth kept in offshore accounts and trusts and just keep taxing the peasants
@@astroganov cut spending when we are teetering on the edge of a recession are you crazy. A reduction in spending now would ruin the economy, as basic keynesian economics explains and has been proved to happen.
No they need to cut government spending and stop printing money lol.
Great video, you're absolutely right this should never have hit the public domain until it was decided on. There is no need or benefit in scaring people with news of potential tax bills they never thought was possible.
Thank you so much for this. It warmed my heart and informed me too.
Absolutely brilliant video Damien and I could not agree more. HMRC need to sort themselves out!
Another banger video Damien
Back in 2010 I had a lot of help from TISA while working on a new platform being setup and we had the same issues with agreements on fractional holdings then (that mention of ITs in the reg brought back bad memories 😂) Funnily enough, recently I had a fractional holding initiative drop off my project list at my current employer with no explanation. I think those 'background' conversations WERE happening with bigger ISA managers at least. This is the very heavy hand of the HMRC telling the public to sit down and shut up, which is there MO sadly
Very well said at the end Damo!
Hey Damian,thanks for the insights and making things simplified.
Well said Damian. These rules would only hit small investors trying to build up a pot for retirement. Keep up the good work mate.
Would they? That seems like a perfectly reasonable assumption - but is it fact? It would be worth asking the companies offering fractional shares where most of them are being sold to.
They won’t be happy until we’re all destitute 🤷♂️it’s all about control
Thank you Damien. Excellent analysis and video about a subject I really needed to get my head around. Subscribed.
Superb video! Let’s hope they see sense and resolve this without penalising those who were simply acting in good faith through purchasing genuine, regulated products.
This would be a complete money grab by HMRC and a shifting of the goal posts. Who on earth can afford whole shares when they start out investing, or is willing to take such a risk? Thank you for the video Damo, hopefully we get some serious political traction with this and get a U-turn from HMRC
That's the point. Fractional shares let poor people participate in money, this is strictly against the tory ideology as poor people are outlawed
It's all smoke and mirrors. I bet they're doing this to dissuade small retail investors from investing in expensive US stocks, in the hope they invest more in UK stocks.
That is an excellent point and I can't see enough US large cap companies willing to do a stock split to enable small retail investors from the UK.
They are not
@@ER-ke3fk Only last month Jeremy Hunt announced proposals to give additional incentives to get people to invest more in UK listed stocks, so they've obviously been thinking it.
I reckon ol' Jezza gave up on offering us carrots and decided to get the stick out instead!
@wyntog Incentives are fine. It is when they wave the stick we need to worry. The 'instruction', or whatever you will call it, to pension funds to invest 5% in riskier start ups is the kind of thing that worries me.
@@timg1246 Agree! It's misguided to try and push people to invest in riskier stock. It's like the government want more of our money to gamble with.
Love your straight forward no nonsense vids about money. Making money accessible to the masses! Well done keep
It up!
Thank you
Well said Damien, noticed this in a news feed this morning and glad you already had a video out on the topic. I hope the video does blow up and HMRC do see this, maybe someone, somewhere might take some notice.
Thanks for another quality video Damo. HMRC once again showing their incompetence - not just with their stance on this, but also waiting over 1hr and their phone lines still ringing... in October. No wonder people struggle so much, I imagine it's downright impossible to speak to them during tax season. They definitely need to 'sort themselves out' in more ways than one!
Don't even get me started about HMRC website - i genuinely think they designed it so people cant do their tax. The most overly complicated design. You can't find the page you want to find 😂 and then you ring and it always takes an hour on hold.
It kept telling me to go to the website on the phone, that thing is a maze
@@DamienTalksMoney haha 😄 I was stuck in a loop of links trying to get to the self assessment login 🤷♂️ hopeless!
Thank you for breaking this down. Cause you’re right they caught me out of being frightened of this news. As always I really appreciate your videos mate 👏🏻 you’re killing it
Excellent content as always! 100% with you on this!
What amazes me is you want to talk to HRMC and you are waiting 1 hour, just goes to prove they are not there for the public
And you eventually get through to someone who is usually unhelpful or untrained. The HMRC is just like a call centre where the first call just directs the query.
Go get ‘em Damien! Brilliantly put
Wow this video was so informative. Thank you so much for sharing 🙌🏾
Thanks for this Damien!
Nice one Damo, thank you for your information about this. Another superb example of Whitehall pen pushing at it's finest. Keep up the good work mate 👍
It seems to me that all I am hearing from hmrc and the fca is anti-investing for small fish. Well I will keep investing!
It feels like the government is just trying to figure out a way to tax ISA investments. I'm guessing there is now a sufficient amount of money saved up there and they want a slice to cover their recent mismanagement of the UK finances. This is very concerning as the ISA is my main saving vehicle. Thanks for the heads up Damien. Will have to keep a close eye on this.
Brilliant, too hard to sort out the big boys, love your enthusiasm , very informative, thank you.
Top video Damo, one of your best yet, keep it up 👍
Well said Damo
Thank you
They don’t actually want ppl to save or invest!!
Thank you so much for making this clip keep and us all infomed👍
Thank you for such an eloquent and simple explanation
There's no way this is going ahead (or at least I hope) as it's completely at odds with the FCA and would really undermine market confidence in these investment vehicles. Thanks for bringing this to our attention - HMRC absolutely need to sort themselves out.
How many of the companies in the FTSE 100 and FTSE 250 and FTSE 350 etc. will have fractional shares owned in UK ISA stocks and shares pots? Aren’t these the types of ISA investments that the chancellor would like to see more UK stocks and shares investors investing in?
A good question.
But, most likely, the overall market share of fractional shares will not be huge, given that they tend to be used by smaller, probably younger investors. Yeah, that is who they are going after.....hoorah...
Thank you for another great video, Damien! Fractional shares make investing so much easier. You don’t need to worry about the amount you invest and you can just put a lump sum into any investment you want. Old brokers (like HL for example) do not allow fractional shares and managing the ISA is more difficult compared to Freetrade/212.
But companies are aware of this and that’s why we see share splits (the last ones I remember were Amazon and Google in the last year or two). BRK-A was a bit of a tease when BRK-B exists for that exact reason :)
Very well said, especially your mini-rant at the end.
How does this work for index funds? Aren't they likely to be fractional in terms of the holdings in the proportionally weight index they track
No, there's no problem with ETFs. The ETF is essentially a company that buys a basket of (whole) shares representing the composition of the index. The investor then buys (whole) shares in the ETF. So if you buy, for example, an iShares S&P 500 ETF, it doesn't involve you taking ownership of any shares in Apple, fractional or otherwise. Rather, you take ownership of (whole) shares of the iShares S&P 500 ETF.
@@UbiquitousBooks that makes total sense.
How does the investor actually buy whole shares in the ETF though? I buy a specific £ amount of an index every month, not a whole number of index fund shares closest to that amount.
That's why this fractional share interpretation seems weird to me as it appears to be okay to buy a fraction of an index fund share?
@@russellpengilley5924This will depend on your platform. It might be that your trading platform allows you to buy fractional shares in the ETF just like it allows you to buy fractional shares in other companies. But then that's a problem with the trading platform, not with the ETF itself.
Damo and Sasha both doing the good work 👍
I saw he dropped just before me! haha
@@DamienTalksMoney I literally just came from his video to yours 😂
Sasha 💩
Me too haha@@madmike171
Clear, concise and logical. I hope the right people see this video. Well done Damien.
Great video as always, one of the few honest people on here without an agenda. I've been trying to research this myself and can't find much to go off. Not being able to buy fractional shares would put me off investing more money in the future
Damien, respect on this video and for calling out HMRC at the end. Does the also apply to mutual funds like Vanguards 'FTSE Global All Cap Index Fund' as shares in these funds are also bought in fractions? Surely not!
I was wondering the same thing especially after Damien's recent video on that
Depends if it is ETF or OEIC - OEICs were created under separate legislation and aren’t on an exchange as such. ETFs will be effected in the same way as shares are.
yes
@@MikeTT120 if it's a mutual fund where you purchase units. Not an ETF.
What do you think? Surely Vanguard, the 2nd largest investment manager in the world would not have messed this up.
@@garyboi9779 you'd have to expand here rather than just simply saying "yes". I am talking about Vanguard's mutual funds where you purchase units of the fund. Not ETFs or individual shares. These mutual funds have been around a lot longer than fractional shares have.
You are doing a great job with your channel. Love your videos. I am quite surprised by what is going on in the UK. Your politicians behave like the ex- soviet bloc ones...greetings from Poland.
Thank you for the info. I'm now quite worried about my Vanguard ISA and junior ISA. I'll subscribe to your channel, and keep watching your videos for any updates
Well said Damien, the last 2 minutes are bang on
It's worth saying that HMRC now has too many people in senior positions who are not fully trained in taxation matters. They have spent the last 10-15 years duming down the workforce.
Perfectly said Damien. For those who are fortunate enough to be able to put aside money to invest in themselves or their family's future only for the taxman to take another slice of financial freedom from them is truly criminal.
They are all thieves, never forget that, the people that really run your country will completely dispossess you of your rights, freedoms and wealth.
Appreciate this video. Thank you
Thank you Damien someone needed to say it.
I still don't understand what the reasoning is for them not wanting ISAs to cover fractional shares. What difference does it make to them if it's fractional or a whole share?
The difference is around ownership. Whole shares (of companies or ETFs) are covered by specific legislation and can be held in ISAs. Fractional shares were created artificially by some brokers and what’s actually happening is they own the whole share and create a contract to say you own a bit of it. This doesn’t apply to OEICs which fall under different legislation for exactly this reason.
@@MikeTT120 Thanks. So is it purely a case of not wanting the reality to be misaligned with the official word on what's allowed, even if there's no practical difference? That's fair enough, but hopefully they can also move toward adding fractional shares to the list of what's allowed in ISAs. Unless there are other drawbacks to them I'm missing, it seems like they're of benefit to everyone involved.
@@thegrinderman1090I think there’s still an issue with not actually being able to own the underlying fraction of a share that needs squaring. Allowing fractions of shares to be held in an ISA would open the floodgates to more risky derivatives being held which I doubt any one wants.
This is why I stick to OEICs instead of ETFs.
@@MikeTT120 That makes sense. Something I've wondered which you may be able to answer is why companies don't all just increase their number of shares and make each share cheaper? It would remove the need for fractional shares because they could all practically be fractional anyway. I'd think the more people who have access to buy my shares, the better.
Look, now that Brexit is done, we need money for that World Class NHS that was promised in 2010, yeah? 😂 Not to mention those schools that are collapsing, built with material that has been causioned about since 1995, making the news about an event that happened about 5 years ago, because they discovered the same material in the Palace of Westminster just now.
Well said . I just wish more people spelt it out like you do . 💯👏👏
Couldn't agree with you more. Well said Damo!
I know this will potentially be financial suicide but if we all went into our respective workplaces and opted out of our pensions even for a few months we could crash this ponzy very quickly. We have the power HMRC so sort it out 😅
This is a bold plan 🤣
again, its targeting the little guy, the one that is not a corporation and does not have power. Tax the poor seems to be the purpose of HMRC
Read about this in the FT the other day. A share is a share issued by the company that is what you're buying. If the company is not issuing fractions of its shares how can you own a peace of the company? It must otherwise be a contract, falling foul of the tax law. Makes sense. Don't know how UK investors get a break for investment, they are taxed on everything.
Brilliant video Damien, and the closing statements were absolutely bang on. Excellent work
Thank you
Time to start a petition the HMRC is becoming tyrannical 🤣
Rule 1. Don't trust the government or the banks. Rule 2. Never forget rule 1.
A very passionate rant there, and straight to the point, well said sir.