Even before altar of insight in Witch Queen, she pointed out there is a distinction between the Darkness and the Whispers in the Darkness during Pressage.
You know, when this whole “Black Fleet” business started, when we knew that the darkness was gonna come back, a faction(?) reached out to a Guardian that walked away from the light. They gave them a gift and the Drifter asked what the Emissary of The Nine wanted in return. “You’re already doing it. Keep playing the game.” I don’t think the “game” is Gambit.
This makes sense to me, if the “game” is the flower game and not gambit, that means the guardians that chose the other side essentially sided with the winnower. What if the strongest being left and therefore “the final shape” ends up being the guardians? I think the winnower still wins in that scenario.
The more I think about the flower game I just keep thinking that we don't know all the pieces going on in the background, there's no real reason for the flower game. There's no... Desire to win other than to prove a point. Being a paracausal entity must suck.
@@allansamuel9631 exactly that. if we continue on our path of "defending in the name of the light" and influencing everything we touch then, the irony in the light becoming the "final shape". This would give reason as to why the traveler gave savathun the light. we cannot be the only driving force of the light otherwise we're no different then The Witness Wielding the dark
I'd like to think that, because the Winnower cannot say "what shape to carve", it hates what the Witness has done to the universe but is powerless to stop it. The purpose of the Winnower's Final Shape is to minimize the amount of suffering in the universe, something we know the Witness doesn't do because, as Eido discovered, its crusade is driven by hatred. Perhaps the Veil manifesting Strand for us was the Winnower's attempt at stopping its rusty First Knife, and a way to create us as a sharper, Second one?
You onto something with that theory about Strand Makes so much more sense then the Guardians miraculously being the first to discover a fundamental power in the universe
I like this theory because strand is supposed to be the fabric that holds everything together. And if it is the winnower is who is showing us strand, that could actually be how the gardener and the winnower create and destroy things in the universe. By cutting there strands. We can only manipulate the strands. I would imagine the winnower can actually "cut" them.
It does seem like witness considers itself the first knife… But is actually a heretic interpreting the winnower’s final shape as justification for exacting revenge on the traveler for leaving the precursors.
I don’t think we are quite sure it wants to limit suffering. We know for sure it wants to make things simpler, and leave only the strongest. In a way the witness did part of this. But they definitely disagree.
Two things that stood out to me in the campaign: 1. Our ghost says he hasn't experienced "something of this magnitude" (referencing the full chromatic spectrum we now have: light harmonious with darkness) since he was created. (See Ghost's dialog right after we first meet Cayde) 2. The dissenter in Zavala's vision says that the Witness lies, and they ran from the Gardener. For me this suggests that the Precursors fled from the Traveler fearing the chaos that was developing. They sought a means to bring order and purpose, and found the Veil. The Winnower gifted them the powers of Darkness, seeing both a kindred race that sought the order he does, and a means to draw closer to the end of the game as it has always been before. Perhaps the Winnower told them to return for the Gardener, maybe the Precursors figured it out themselves, but either way they bring the Veil back in an attempt to forcefully take the powers of light and enact their final shape on the universe. The Traveler catches on to what they're doing and flees to prevent this, because this would stop its goal: thwarting gridlock and reaching a different end to the game. I think the Winnower realizes that the Witness is no longer the tool it thought it was, as a frozen universe also stops its goal: the end of the game as it always has been before. Eventually, something changes and the Traveler chooses to make a stand with humanity. I don't think this is because we're something special, but rather because the Winnower and the Gardener have reached an agreement: create ghosts to seek out beings worthy of wielding light and dark to stop the Witness and prevent the game from stalemating. This, or something similar, is the only reason I can think of for Ghost recalling the feeling of Prismatic. Darkness provided the pattern for ghosts, and Light gave them form. Maybe he's just referencing a "similar" type of power, but then why would he mention the spectrum and being harmonious with darkness?
Yes! I believe you're right! New datamine presume from the winnower himself! Seems to be talking down on the action of the witness. And even on unveiled textbook, it describes the acts of the withness as "abomination." We just didn't know at that time.
@@Tao_Tology didn't Clovis create the Warmind to prevent the Traveler from running away? If I remember correctly, the Traveler tried to escape during the Collapse, but Rasputin stopped it
@@Coolbone1 This was never confirmed and ended up being retconned in season of the seraph. The protocol to shoot the traveler down if it tried to run existed, but was never actually used. I kind of feel like it was really heavily implied early on in the lore, and explains the level of damage we see on the bottom of the Traveler, but I think Bungie ended up deciding that they wanted the Traveler to stay because it wanted to because humanity was just "so special". I guess fuck the Eliksni and other species the Traveler didn't think were "special" enough to save?
Byf, I've been with you for so long. I believe since 2016 or 2017 is when I first subbed but I have watched your Destiny vids from all the way to your early days. I started D1 in 2014 when I was 10 and now I'm 20, no longer playing Destiny but I catch myself coming back to you to hear you talk about the lore. Now that it's finally over I can rest. I no longer need to know what's happening. This is my endgame. Byf you have given me so much of my childhood because of your videos. Thank you.
I think it's a little more nuanced than the winnower making the witness. I think that the game isn't played by the gods themselves. But instead played by the pieces. I think the game has already begun. Only the universe born in the combat between them is the board. The traveler and veil are Tools that profess nothing. The game is to see if the universe will turn into a final shape or if it will become an endless sprawl of possibility. The witness called itself the first knife because it sees itself as the first to shape the world into the final shape. Anyone who tries to make the final shape would be a "knife" in the hand of the winnower. But as the witness itself said. He wasn't actually ordered by anything. Nobody was swinging that knife. The game is that anyone can be the knife. And anyone can tend the garden. Anyone can choose to pursue anything. And the travelers job is keeping the universe filled with possibility and uplifting the universe to give everything a chance to grow. The witness saw the veil and the traveler and saw a purpose it made for itself. It saw a key and a hole and was the first to want to merge them and pursue a purpose it made for itself. And the traveler had no desire to allow the universe to enter stillness so it fled. It's odd. But I think the gardener and winnower if they do exist they exist as watchers. They play the game by giving the tools to us. But they don't guide us. After all the greatest proof of victory isn't by forcing it. It's by letting the game play out and seeing what the universe chooses for itself. The witness with no orders or guidance needed almost proved the winnower right. And we as the champions of the gardener proved it right. Possibility won over stillness. But the witness is only the first to try. The vex are just as much a threat. And they desire the same order and final shape. In other universes they always win without paracausual power to stop them. It's up to us and all of existence to prove that there is no need for a final shape.
Remember the Winnower's description of the game. "The only permitted move is the initial arrangement of the board." The pieces are the game, and the pieces play the game.
I agree with your explanation, I think that the winnower and the gardener are principles of existence and that they together move the scale of time throughout all possible multiverses. Also, hypothetically if we as guardians were able to destroy the winnower or at least "pause" the game, that to me is almost the same goal as the witness (eliminate entropy and prevent any change from occurring forever), only difference is that the witness doesn't possess the ability to restart the game if it ends. I imagine that by removing one of the 2 entities of creation (Winnower, Gardener), the game cannot continue, and thus sealing whatever eternity the "knife" desires (Final Shape). Another concept to keep in my mind, is that the destiny universe exists because the Winnower and Gardener don't agree and thus they "battle/create" endlessly so that there isn't a solidified state of existence. The true final shape is when the game ends, and nothing created by either the Gardner or Winnower can persist.
To go off your point of "anyone can be the knife", I know it has long been seen as just being a 4th wall break, but I forever think of that Week 5 Invite of The Nine "Strength" where I have seen interpretation that the "game" when the Emissary says " think bigger, he/she can leave this game" is talking about the Guardian not necessarily being bound to the Winnower v Gardener game.
He really, REALLY wants the Winnower to be real. I think he's overlooking a lot of pretty blatant problems with this interpretation because of that, unfortunately. 1) We know the full story of the Witness' origins. It was not created before the beginning of time. The first knife described in Unveiling was. 2) The Unveiling lore book where the Winnower is described came from the Witness. The Witness mentioning the Winnower twice does not confirm the existence of the Winnower. 3) Asha makes it clear that the Winnower was something the Witness created/mythologized to find purpose. Probably more accurate to say that the Witness invented the Winnower as a way to describe the purpose it gave itself. 4) The memories of the Traveler that we find, along with the fragments we discover around the Pale Heart and in Micah-10's missions (particularly the lore in Cyst missions), directly contradict a lot of the mythology that Witness describes in Unveiling. All of this is to say, the Winnower and Gardener are metaphors the Witness created to describe the purpose it gave itself to chase the Traveler. They don't actually exist, but are a description of how the Witness sees the universe and the Traveler and Veil's place in it, and the reason it hates the Traveler for uplifting species without giving them purpose. It has come to view that uplifting without purpose as creating suffering, and describes it as "changing the rules" of the universe. It views the final shape as the end of that suffering, and that the final shape is what would happen if the Traveler hadn't interfered by abandoning them rather than letting them use it to reshape everything.
@@MusicWarrior147 Please, feel free to point out where I'm wrong. Assuming you actually are basing your opinion on anything other than feels, that should be easy, right? Or are you someone who just responds with "cope" and "cry more" every time someone says something you don't want to hear?
1. Is built around the concept of time. Issue is something that has existed forever does not use or value time the same as we do. 3. Something eons old and a billion times more intelligent is so simple that it need to make up an imaginary daddy to give it purpose. These 2 alone poke holes in your entire argument.
If the gardener is confirmed to be the traveler, the witness claims the guardian and itself are creations of their “gods,” and we are products of the traveler, the most natural explanation is the veil is the winnower
Exactly. The Witness goes as far as to say, “They[The Winnower]cannot tell the knife what shape to carve.” This is reminiscent of how the travel doesn’t explicitly tell people what to do.
I've always considered the Witness a heretic of the Unveiled doctrine. It desired to cut things short, to prevent the sharpening of the universe in accordance with the Winnowing path. It agreed with the Gardner in ethics, but the Winnower in process. The world can only produce suffering so better to end it as cleanly as possible rather than let rot and decay and profane growth find root.
I thought that line was more metaphorical. Guardians are not gardeners but we are the watering can wielded by the gardener (the traveler). Whatever gives the power of darkness is the Winnower, isn’t that the Veil?
Asha's memory cinematic literally explains that the gardener is the travler and the veil is the winnower, which is called that because it allows control over the power of the gardener (the traveler), which is how the witness was trying to create the final shape.
100% metaphorical. Byf is reaching a bit here, I think he wants the Winnower to be real and is unfortunately overlooking a lot of the lore surrounding this to latch onto this line.
@@supergatorhator100% agree w u. To me, the witness is just using its own mythology to put how it sees itself. The traveler is not the gardener, and it is confirmed by the memories you unlock in the pale heart. Those creatures are allegories of how the precursor people understands light and dark
maybe this is why oryx despite all his power never ended up becoming a disciple, although they worked to acomplish the same objective their views where different oryx seeking the final shape that the winnower taught him and the witness seeking their own thus making oryx unfit to be the witness disciple
I think once the winnower realized that the witness wanted to achieve a different final shape than its own, it decided to help us toward defeating the witness, and may very well be responsible for us being able to use darkness so well. After all it was the veil that allowed us to learn strand on Neptune. And I think it’s version of the final shape, is going to be us.
I swear watch your video all night was a great idea, I already loved destiny, but now it's just incredible, I'm so excited for what come next in destiny, and more importantly thank you byf, thank you so much to expose the lore to us and raise even more my love for that game
@@ryanhickson6399 well, the darkness isn't about pyramids. That's the witness. Actually, I'd argue the darkness is more about non-solid and even non-existent shapes considering the darkness holds domain over what isn't physical.
Not exactly the way I took that, the way it sounded was that The Gardener wasn't satisfied with the rules so proposed a new one, and The Winnower tried to call it out as breaking the original rules of "The Game". So in conflict, they branched out, and accidentally both created life DEDICATED to their own rules. It's very interesting that the Traveler ran so hard, so many times, and that The Gardener is so silent, but The Winnower is not just vocal, but stand-offish. Like watching everything going down is some huge experiment. Like it's seeing how everything plays out. Almost like The First Knife was the first move in a game.
Another great video Byf! I always appreciate your readings of the lore entries; you give them so much more life and energy. So, to summarize everything that's happened from my own understanding: -The Vex likely were the true 'Final Shape' over and over again, like all their predictions, outside of para-causal interference they can't simulate, have shown -The Gardener got bored of the same thing happening every time and wanted to introduce a new rule to reward those who try something different -The Winnower claims that will only "delay the dominant pattern" and there can only be one rule: Essentially Sword Logic -The Gardener says 'Nah, I'd change' and The Winnower says they'll only create things "...that cannot withstand existence that will suffer and scream... they will blight the whole garden" -On The Gardener's whim they both become Laws of the game now as The Traveler and The Veil -The Traveler's 'Law' by The Gardener's words about itself are "I am the growth and preservation of complexity. I will make myself into a law in the game." So, growth and change -The Veil's 'Law' as The Winnower's counterpart by the same vein is "Whatever exists because it must exist and because it permits no other way of existence has the absolute claim to existence. That is the only law", and "...I had only one purpose and one principle in the game. And I could do nothing but continue to enact that purpose..." So, Sword Logic and a will|strength to enact the final shape(?) -"...the laws of the game became nomic and open to change by our influence" -Traveler lifts up the Precursors, giving them a life of rapid growth and prosperity, but when they want purpose, The Gardener won't answer them or give them any -Precursors search for and find The Veil because it and The Traveler's energies are linked, then bring it back to try to link it with The Traveler -The Gardener/Traveler not wanting this leaves the Precursors, causing a collapse in their civilization and the power of The Veil they become The Witness and want to enact revenge against The Traveler for leaving them, thus becoming the first "knife" of The Winnower -Cosmic Chaos ensues and... -Whether we wanted it or not, we've stepped into a war with The Witness on The Traveler -The Veil has now managed to merge with The Traveler in some capacity. This may have been The Winnower's goal, we don't really know though Does that sound right? If any of these seem wrong or are incorrectly interpreted, please let me know. Like I said this is from my own understanding and I may be missing some information or misunderstanding something, but I'd love to be corrected so I can have a better understanding of everything going on in the game's lore.
I think that the veil and traveler used to be one entity, and that entity was the first Tree of silver wings. When the gardener and the winnower broke the tree off at the base, the veil/traveler were freed to go about the universe, acting out the Flower Game.
I figured this might be the case. The Traveler and the Veil was once one the first Tree of Silver Wings. The tree itself might be the Veil and the Traveler might have been what was sprouted from it. The fact that the tree looks like the Veil and the Traveler looking like what might've been inside the tree, because of the spherical space. A seed (The Traveler) is planted, it grows into a tree (The Veil), the tree grows a seed (a new Traveler) that spreads out to create more life. That's the game the Gardener and Winnower are playing but the Veil and Traveler was one in a billion and hasn't happened again.
I was thinking that or maybe the traveler was the complexity added to the game by the gardener and the veil maybe a way to combat the complexity brought the Gardner but I feel like it could be too much of a reach but still would be cool
@@heroicxidiotHoly sh*t that's such a good point. The other side of the Veil looks like a half created Traveler... And the psychedelic undulations of color in both of the entities helps explain that they aren't too different from each other. Question is, what would happen if we bring the two together? Reunite the tree of silver wings? Why doesn't the traveler want this? Did free will sprout in the traveler when the tree was cut? Edit: and how did the tree of silver wings separate in the first place? Was that the Gardener's doing?
I like this theory. And it’s makes a lot of sense. I also think the rule the gardener wanted to add was possibly for life/entities to grow without their input, or perhaps enlightenment, self awareness or freedom of choice. Adding chance and chaos into the game.
Yup, Traveler and The Veil could be from The Tree of Silver Wings, which is the counterpart as light and darkness in my opinion. It might be twins or something.
In the Balance of Power lore tab, while Maya Sundaresh is attempting to interact/interface with the Veil, Chioma insists that the Veil is dangerous, which Maya agrees with, asserting that they must treat it like a knife. The text states that "a thought crystallizes" which leads me to believe that the Winnower implanted the thought into her. Its possible we've been unwittingly been doing the Winnowers bidding by using Strand, like a knife
The first knife ship lore text actually filled me with uneasiness and dread! The fact a being so powerful as the witness was so close to beating us but coming up short only to find out theres others like him out there and a singular entity that is *Far* more powerful then him who gave him the means to be as powerful as he was makes me feel like I'm a grain of sand fighting against a tsunami.
The minute Luzaku mentioned the Gardener in that lost sector, my ears perked up and I screamed. I assume she’s mentioning the Gardener in more of a mythical, religious text sense, but still, the fact that she said Gardener and not “Sky” like the Hive usually call the Traveler and Light-related things blew my mind.
Something I noticed in the 10 hour lore video with this allegory is that both exhibit the same base pattern: the Gardener and Traveller bring life and creative forces to a place then depart where the Winnower and Witness leave the garden, or place the previous touched, cut down. The cycle repeats innumerable times before the Traveller arrives on Earth and uplifts it, then the Witness’s arrival to do their part of the cycle is itself upended by means of a ‘new rule’ with the ejection of the Black Fleet from Sol and releasing of Ghosts to create Guardians as a means of ‘getting involved within the game’. What I’m curious about is what is known of this tale after the Gardener and Winnower have this exchange and play the game with these new rules they implemented? What hints of what is to come for The Traveller and Guardians lie in wait to be uncovered and pieced together?
I think byf is misunderstanding. The witnesses was never the winnower. The winnower is the veil. It was used on the traveler (gardener) to shift through its light and control the end product in a way the witness wants (the final shape), hence the name winnower. The witness is simply stating it isn't the winnower. It never was. The asha cutscene refers to the veil as a winnower to control the traveler. Aka the gardener.
Nope, I personally don't think so. "The One piece" is just a "guidance" kind of thing that some history statement if i guess it what it is. The role of "The Winnower" in Destiny would be at least something similar to "The Traveler", or "The Gardener", which is some kind of cosmic entity or maybe God, that maybe created/manipulating the Destiny Universe. Not the same scale in my opinion.
I think that everything can be contextualized through the garden game: -Traveler/Gardener does not communicate with us because it does not want to "prune" or shape the plant. -The Winnower sees this as an unending chaos because Traveler/Gardener will not try and shape and prune the plants. -The Winnower does not/refuses to act at all in the confines of this altered game state. The First Knife appeared in its hand and the Witness does what it thinks is right, not what The Winnower wants. The Winnower never communicated with the Precursors, it was more like The Traveler and the Speakers. -We do not know what the new rules would have been, The Traveler/Gardener never came up with an end rule(in the lore book at least) and this led the Winnower to think that these new rules meant The Traveler/Gardener would always win. I think that D3 will be where the Winnower truly acts in this new garden game, "If I must play this new form of the game so that I can return the game to how it used to be then so be it."
If I had a nickel for every time Bungie created a story about a hyper advanced ancient civilization that uplifted humanity in an esoteric way. I’d have two nickels, which isn’t a lot but it’s weird it happened twice.
@tylerbarse2866Thus it isnt canon. Too many companies are coming out and gaslighting players of established franshises and justifying new changes to lore based on subjects the original writers considered but decided against and muckimg up the story. If it didnt make it into the game because they ran out of time, then its different. If they chose to go in a different way( in the case of halo) they chose to go in a different way. Leave it be and write so ething else. In the case of Halo, 343 made it very clear they wanted to rewrite or redefine bungie's halo. New reports of jealousy, infighting, and outright bans on hiring many OG bungie Halo lead designers by 343 coming out recently only reinforce that.
@@heavymetallabrat I find it hard to believe 343 banned people from Bungie from joining 343 when Frank O Connor was from original Bungie and Joseph Staten himself later joined and left of his own volition. And there’s probably a reason why they didn’t go with that original Halo 2 Ending. They could have added it in Halo 3 but didn’t, rather just had a blatantly Rampant AI claim it. And hating 343 when they have cleaned house while putting up with the modern Bungie up-and-down Microtransaction Funded rollercoaster is so funny.
10 years and Byf still puts out bangers. Thank you for making the story deeper & far more understandable for those who don't get the time to go through the lore!
Since it's also said that the Gardener's and Winnower's clash created the universe, I can't help but think of Prismatic. The combination of Light and Dark created an entire world within Traveler's body, though in our hands, it seems be harmonious instead of discordant.
From the Inspiral lore book, the flowers must rise up to shape the garden themselves. That’s what the precursor civilization saw themselves doing when creating the Witness
is it possible that the reason why we can use both the light and dark so flawlessly is that the winnower is allowing us to use its power to become the most powerful being in the universe, so become the final shape that it wants? previous examples of beings trying to use the light and dark, such as nezarec, were unstable being the winnower didnt allow them to use the light and dark in tandum, but then why are we different?
This has always been my interpretation, that the Winnower's "Final Shape" is a lifeform so vast, power, "Majestic" that its existence dwarfs others. Creation of a Apex Life. The Winnower see us "The Guardian" as his (I agree with Byf - Winnower sounds male) proof of concept, his argument to the Gardener. The Guardian is only one whose been able to wield Prismatic, the Light and Dark in perfect harmony. That sounds pretty Majestic to me. The Winnower will likely either guide us or "sharpen" us further to become even stronger - He doesn't want stillness or absolute destruction, but Majesty in Life. A Flower so majestic, no weed can touch it.
Given that Osiris and Zavala can use Strand & Stasis without ghosts, it may be that the Winnower offers *everyone* his power, to become part of his *Proof*, in whichever way they see fit, because they will prove themselves correct or die proving someone else correct. The Traveler may be more discerning given what happened with the Precursors, and the Gardener desires complexity, heterodoxy. Difference. That said Prismatic might be both Gardener & Winnower making the same Argument to different ends. Which we prove correct depends entirely on our choices.
It occurs to me that the witness maybe wasn't specifically favoured by the Winnower and just took the power of darkness to serve it's own needs, much as it did with the traveller. If the Winnower does vaguely follow sword logic it would want everyone on a base level playing field to see who comes out on top off their own merits. That would explain why it's happy to let anyone use darkness powers. It just wants someone, anyone to come out on top. If anything it was probably quite happily surprised when the witness was defeated as now it's got a new favourite piece, the guardian.
Stigma of the witness, the pale heart collectible sure looks like the needle pointing at the Traveler portal from Root of Nightmares as well as the main light core of of a vex conflux like they are all connected.
theres seemingly a raid lore book currently that has a being, with eerily similar mannerisms to the same being that said "oryx my man, kick back and relax" talking to us directly, calling the witness its necrolite and so on.
I was watching evanf’s raid race stream and when the first team got to this point I listened to this dialogue from the witness and my jaw dropped realizing the implications it held
I love how the Winnower existing is such a W reveal for the community. The dev claiming that the Winnower might not exist is probably the reason it does. He probably knew exactly what he was talking about, but the Destiny community was so upset by it that Bungie changed course. I believe the Winnower did exist, then was changed into a concept to make the Witness seem more threatening, then was changed back into being it’s own entity.
Honestly this line really does not contradict the Winnower being metaphorical. The Witness is quoting its own creation myth - that doesn't mean the myth is real. The Winnower was an idea created by the Witness to describe its understanding of the universe.
@@supergatorhator it doesn't really sound like a myth, considering things like the vex, the tree of silver wings, the stump in the black garden. frankly, you cannot confidently say it doesn't exist or not. also that very quote sounds pretty on the nose, the witness disagrees with what you posit
@@kingkunta3753 Saying "we are not the Winnower" is not acknowledging its existence, particularly when the book describing the Winnower and Gardener was made by the Witness. The story itself repeatedly says this is not literal. For example, saying "** We did not live. We existed as principles of ontological dynamics that emerged from mathematical structures, as bodiless and inevitable as the primes." and "They chewed at their cracked lip, which existed *only because this is an allegory*." So, you have Unveiling, the only source of the story of the Winnower and Gardener, written by the Witness, which outright says that the Winnower and Gardener are principles of ontological dynamics and were not living entities. The Unveiling also specifically describes this story as an allegory - fiction with a hidden meaning. If we take this at face value, what is the hidden meaning that the Witness is trying to relay by giving us this story? By definition, an allegory is not literal. With that in mind, it seems to be talking about the Traveler uplifting species, "changing the rules" of the game/universe by giving life a chance to exist when it shouldn't. The Winnower represents the natural order of things, the inevitability of evolution/survival of the fittest. If we take this interpretation, the Witness being the first knife makes sense - it was created with the purpose of stopping the Traveler and using it to bring its vision of the final shape into existence. The fact that an allegory alludes to things that exist is not proof that it's literal. A novel that includes cars is suddenly not fiction because cars are real, therefore everything in it must also be real, right?
the Flower game and the conversation between the gardener and the winnower and the static nature of it reminds me weirdly of Paradise and the garden of Eden, the moment the traveler and the veil come into existence as an allegory to the apple of Eden that grants free will and choice to the precursors.
Yeah so that would mean that the traveler and the veil were the complexity that the Gardner wanted to add to the game but the winnower didn’t which caused a divide between the two which would also connect to Adam and eve
This is by design. The flower game, Winnower, Gardener, etc, are the Witness' creation myth that it shared with us in Unveiling. That doesn't mean any of it is real, any more than any other religious creation myth, and the Witness describing itself as the first knife does not prove the existence of the Winnower any more than a priest saying he's an instrument of god would somehow prove that the bible must be true.
@@supergatorhator That's pretty specious, though. Comparing a particular book (written centuries after any of the described events) to a very real and powerful entity
"Each child we save from the game, you again force to play. You call us "Winnower", we are not... but the first knife clutched in its hand. Gods forged us both, but they cannot tell the knife what shape to carve." This line gave me goosebumps when I heard while watching contest mode and going through the raid later with my fireteam. Man I'm so happy the amazing story from the lore books is coming to the forefront of Destiny. I am falling back in love with this game.
That line where the witness is referring to gods creating us both, meaning the witness and the guardian. It’s referring to the traveler creating us, and the winnower (veil) creating it.
I doubt the traveler is the gardener. That would be so dumb; since the witness was manhandling the fucking Gardner!?!?! The traveler and witness are the same level, both being directly under their gods.
@@TyBe-uo4ud hey fun fact, on the destiny 2 wiki, the traveler is referred to as the the gardener. We have also had this in cutscenes and in game dialogue 🤷♂️
Something interesting is that it seems since the Gardener decided to make itself a law into the game, it single handedly made both itself and the Winnower mortal in a fashion. That is assuming they were immortal prior to the rule change.
Idk if id call the Winnower "the Devil", that title more so belongs to the Witness as it temps others to IT'S side, not the Winnower (it also fell from grace in a sense aka the Light), the Witness also pokes fun of the sword logic in the campaign (Rhulk talks about this in Preservation). The Witness is essentially the child of both Gardener & Winnower, but it does its own thing. I highly suggest checking out the final page of "Inspiral" if you plan on talking about this stuff more as i dont think you ever covered that & it adds context especially to "The First Knife". I also think if the Winnower ever becomes a villain, that would cheapen TFS & the Witness, the Witness deserves to be the main villain & if the Winnower were to be introduced it would be restarting the "Light & Dark" saga, I believe people are overthinking the Winnower, I think the Gardener & Winnower are more like forces of nature (& if the Winnower could possibly intervene, it would prove the Gardener right). There's also dialogue on the Pale Heart between the Witness & Savathun where they talk about Oryx that could lean it towards the Witness being the one who talked to Oryx, Ikora also makes the comparison that Calus communed with the Witness on the Glykon the same way Oryx did.
The Winnower is absolutely a force for Evil. He thinks charity, mercy, forgiveness etc are weakness. The Winnower wants to tempt us to join his perspective. That a Silver City Ringed in Spears and the entire philosophy of the Guardians is wrong. He wants *us,* his New, favorite Final Shape He will just never interfere. To Interfere shows his hand and that the final shape isnt inevitable. He needs to be hands off in order to win, where as the traveller and light can interfere as the Gardener wishes
@@Theology.101if the Winnower is a force of evil wouldn't that make Darkness inherently evil? Instead it has been the Witness that's corrupted aspects of Darkness to its liking, & bent others to its way
@@BrazarBThe Winnower is evil because violence and destruction are inherently evil and the Winnower wants us to do that to everything until only we are left standing. But just because Violence is Bad, doesn’t mean that it isn’t nessecary. Guardians routinely engage in the sword logic, drink deep of the Darkness and use it - but we use it *towards the Traveller and Gardener’s goals.* The Winnower is darkness but they arent JUST darkness
@@BrazarBI think that was the original idea to make the winnower the villain of the light and darkness saga but writers changed it somewhere along the way
This is amazing! The lore in this game is so in depth and complex. Even when I fall out of love with the play, the lore has been what keeps me coming back over the last 10 years.
I have social anxiety and use this game to relax so I don't experience important moments in the lore like the raid. Your channel helps me enjoy the story more than I would so I thank you.
I always thought that the Witness was the Winnower's "I told you so moment" to the traveler. In The First Knife lore entry when the Gardener and Winnower are arguing they say "Everything will be the same. Your new rule will only make great false cysts of horror full of things that should not exist (The witness which could only be made through paracausal power that were introduced to the flower game by the traveler) that cannot withstand existence that will suffer and scream (The Witness constantly whines about entropy) as their rich blisters fill with effluent and rot around them, and when they pop they will blight the whole garden (The Witness trying to enact their version of the final shape on an unwilling universe).
Hi Byf! Im really curious, because I have listened/looked at your videos for years now, and I LOVE THEM(!!!!!) But I would love to listen to them more, so would you consider making them into Spotify podcasts? I mean, there is no need to Edit the audio, its perfect, but having the possability to listen more to the lore as im working, driving, (and yes, sleeping!) would be fantastic! Again, I love your content! A new video from you is always a highlight of the week! 🙌🙌
Byf I really hope you do a video on the memories of the Traveler Micah can interpret for us in the Pale Heart.... The implications are huge, and also maybe imply the Traveler is not the Gardener but just a tool of it too? I'd love your insight
The sword logic is much more in line with what the winnower seems to believe, so that would make sense. However, based on what savathun said during altars, the witness has much greater understanding of darkness than oryx
God damn. They really made the witness a very compelling villain this dlc. Every line is awesome and I’m just mesmerized every time they talk. The voice actor did an incredible job
Its amazing how much vindication those of us who have been saying the Unveiling is real are feeling all those years after being told we were wrong. Greatest feeling ever that we were right all this time.
Well, as someone who used to very much think unveiling was real, I really don’t think it is anymore, even if the Winnower and the Gardener themselves are real. The whole thing is a vague metaphor at best, considering that in the lore book, the First Knife is used against the Gardener before the creation of the universe, but in reality the Witness was not created until the precursor civilization had already been blessed by the Gardener for thousands of years.
@@yourewrong9028 Wasn't the Unveiling lore book written by or written from the PoV of the Witness (which also caused all the speculation as to whether it's accurate in the first place)? If that's the case I wonder how that line from the Raid can be seen as confirmation at all, considering both the lore book and that "confirmation" came from the same entity...
@@SirLugash We don’t really know if it was written by the witness or not, or if it was, how much of it was genuine belief and how much was deliberate attempt at deception. I will say though that that line at least implies that the witness truly believes that the winnower exists in some form or another, which is a confirmation that we did not explicitly have before.
We... I don't understand... how everyone has already popped out the champagne and started celebrating that Unveiling is a confirmed truth. The Witness isn't a reliable source. The Witness is crazy. The Witness thought that the universe's destiny was to be frozen in place forever. It was wrong. We always used to talk about how Unveiling was more of a metaphor written by the Witness. Why is there any reason to believe these new words of the Witness are anything different.
Funny how in the Traveler that the Witness tower (after the raid/end of Final Shape) and the stump of the Tree of Silver Wings in the Black Garden look similar. Both seem to have a gash down the same side, into the fractured cubed/slivered/cut up ground, and then feed down a central path/line toward where you enter from. Both have steam/energies seeping out. Both places corrupted by Darkness in some form.
It's more like we are the first walls of the Gardener. Before a garden can be planted, the Gardener must separate the wild from the garden and keep them separate. Then he can worry about towels and shovels. Without the walls, those items just become weird little knives for the gardener to protect the garden.
Gardener symbolizes Growth and the Winnower the Culling or Corruption. Creating the Witness was the Winnower playing by the Gardeners rules and taking a page from his book - he was creating or encouraging the growth with his corruption and influence. An “I told you so” by the Winnower to the Gardener that his new rules would change nothing. That his gridlock is inevitable. Which was right for eons until the Witness had his final encounter in Sol.
I feel like the Winnower's quote within 'The First Knife' grimoire card about 'Your new rule will only make horror' (short paraphrase) is correct in the specific example of the Precursors and their Witness gestalt. Unfortunately for the rest of us in reality, it's never a good situation when something maliciously antagonistic has a knife of any kind, i.e. akin a 'Horror' Movie monster; let alone the metaphysic Knife of our reality's Cosmology-Myth... Also I subscribe to the conceit that the Vex were the original, recurrent, 'Final Shape' within the previous version(s) of the 'Flower Game'. Which also relates to how/why Paracausal phenomenon are so nigh-incomprehensibly difficult for the Vex to deal with.
The rule change in the game of flowers was the separation of the veil and traveller. The combination of the 2 always led to the final shape over and over again. Separating them and letting the traveller get away from the veil gave a greater chance of growth and complexity in the universe.
Agreed, merging this Darkness into the Traveller was definitely a main major goal, the Witness falling may not be such a loss to that side when they have such a victory
When i heard that shit in Aztecross stream the chat went wild and the raid team didnt even hear it 😂 but me and everyone in chat were losing their shit
I REALLY like this revelation because it gives a sense of comedic timing to the Unveiling story. Because according to Ahsa, it was the actions of the Traveler that led to the creation of the Witness, and in Unveiling we see the Gardener suggest to the Winnower that they add their own laws to the game, which suggests the creation of the Traveler by the Gardener. And AFTER hearing the Gardener's idea, the Winnow doesn't seem too plussed on the idea, but it happens. And when it looks down at its hands after being forced to participate alongside the Gardener, it sees the First Knife has just suddenly come into being. Mucho metaphorical. The Winnower's passive attitude towards the whole game, believing that no matter what the Gardener does it will only delay the same result, implies it did not directly influence the creation of the Witness, it saw no need to, yet the actions of the Gardener caused the Witness to appear, and it placed itself in the Winnower's hand as its piece of its own prerogative.
On thing that I have been thinking is in the "Vision" we get after entering the Traveler. We see the astronaut using the elemental powers that we use, and the corruption of the traveler but other things shown are weird... maybe another video analyzing it will be fun. Grate job like always mate🍻
The traveler is constantly referred to as the gardener. Even luzaku called it that. So its opposite must be the winnower. Witness when its explaining it's origin in the campaign, says that they sought out the traveller's opposite and they show the veil. Veil is the winnower and it's not evil. Traveller is the source of the light and winnower is the source of the dark.
Witness wanted to put an end to the flower game, only to play into the winnower's hand. What a tragic ending, destroyed by the very purpose they sought.
Thing is, based on how things in this video are said it doesn't sound like the winnower is an active participant or even an opposing Force. The way he says he looked at his hands and discovered the first knife doesn't sound as if he created it but as if it appeared, basically a reference how growth will eventually create it's own end. How the scourge called the witness developed from growth by itself.
To me, it comes across that the Gardener created the Traveller in order to enforce its new rule of Complexity in the game. The Winnowers responce to this was the Witness. Its also clear that the Veil is linked to the Winnower in some way. Thats my interpretation anyway. Edit, watched more of the video and seems like Byf is on the same or similar page. I think Heresy may give us more info, Bungie mentioned it as another eldritch force rising up and its tied to the Dreadnaught, we know the Winnower considered Oyrx as his champion so maybe? Time will tell.
@@zaelynrichardson4598 i wouldnt say its confirmed, its heavily implied though, if you read the Ego Sum lore tab its implied someone is speaking to the Traveller as almost a parent figure, also the lore of the Visions you collect in the Pale Heart make the Traveller out like its unsure and doesnt know its true purpose, almost like a confused child. The 2 options are still viable, either the Gardener created the Traveller or the Gardener became the Traveller, i lean towards the first option.
@@fishnutz5196the thing is that multiple characters have already referred to the Traveler as the Gardener, like Ahsa, Luzaku, Osiris, etc. I don’t think Bungie would intentionally have multiple characters refer to a character as the Gardener when that character is in fact a mere creation of the Gardener. It would just be too confusing. If the Gardener from Unveiling exists, it is almost certainly the same entity as the Traveler.
@@yourewrong9028 and you could be very correct on that, but there are alot of outliers in the lore that suggest otherwise. But your not wrong and if it turns out it truely is the Gardener then it makes sense too.
@@yourewrong9028What just gets me confused is still Saint 14’s vision of a motherly woman helping him. And also the old concept trailer of D1 with the woman and also Unveiling. I think the Gardener made herself into the game which is the universe and that’s the Traveller, and the Winnower made the Veil and the Witness was the first knife.
I’m kinda surprised they didn’t give the Witness a cool title in the Raid, so I’ll do it myself, *” The Witness, First Knife of the Winnower”* Also i don’t think the comparison of the Winnower to the Devil is accurate, as Biblically, the Devil is strictly bad and God is strictly good (doesn’t act that way but I digress) But Destiny 2 has shown whole civilizations such as the Ecumene and Neomuna using Darkness Benevolently. A closer comparison I think, is perhaps the Bhuddist Yin and Yang, where supposedly Opposing forces are in actuality Complimentary. This is similar to how the Veil and Traveler were once One being. And it’s similar to how the Witness and Nezarec consider Existence as Suffering, a common Bhuddist concept. Also who do you think commands the Darkness Armies now? With the Witness dead, do they automatically become living extensions of the Winnower….or are they free? If they are free, the Darkness mutated Psions could become a powerful force within the Psion Conclave…
The name is flawed because it's not "Of The Winnower" The Winnower doesn't want what The Witness believes is the Final Shape. The Winnower lured the Precursors to The Veil and manipulated them into fusion and became The Witness. The Witness from then acted on its own. Not saying The Winnower opposes The Witness. The Winnower gives off very similar vibes to Ryuk from Death Note. The Viel is its version of The Death Note, it dropped it off and is simply spectating what happens next because it was bored with "The Game". That's how I perceive it at least.
I had this same idea I heard the Witness say "I am the first knife". But I also think light and dark together create infinite complexity, the gardeners goal.
THIS is what I wanted out of the lore since garden. This expands the universe again and stops it from all being about one (amalgamation) throwing a tantrum that made the universe feel so small all this time since their introduction. Also I think its a nice bit that both the gardener and the winnower believe their view as the kindness.
I understood the concept of the Winnower and Gardener thanks to having looked into something similar in Transformers. Primus and Unicron. In the lore they once existed in the primordial void before existence as 1 being that split into 2. Each represented a dichotomy of existence, Primus was light, life, good, and order. Unicorn was darkness, death, evil, and chaos. Very similar to the Gardener and Winnower, both battled until they entered the newly forming universes. For Transformer they split into many smaller iterations across the Multiverse as Unicrons began attempting to snuff out Primuses, and devouring the universe as they went. Each having a vessel through which they manipulated existence, much like the Winnower I assume through the Veil, snd Gardener the Traveler. They are cosmic entities and fundamental forces of existence. While Primus and Unicron represented typical good vs evil, it fascinates me that the G/W don’t. G represents life and Light and the physical, but can be more prone to allowing chaos. W representing Darkness and entropy and through this death, but also the more mental. Unveiling makes it clear that with conscious life entropy is natural, whether through the nature of existence or conflict and war. Unveiling simply told us by the Winnower it’s self their origins, but told in metaphor so we could understand. It does mention the equations of the Flower Game becoming the Vex, it could be the Black Garden is either a primordial dimension the entities existed in, or perhaps like how the equations of the game became the Vex, the representation of the “garden” became the Black Garden.
The description of the first knife and the "Sword logic" basically go hand in hand. The line "Whatever exists because it must exist and permits no other way of existence, has the absolute claim to existence", compliments "All things must prove their right to exist, the rest will d*e in terror."
So, please correct me if I'm misunderstanding, but does the First Knife entry imply that the Witness/Precursor people could actively speak to the Gardner and Winnower?
No. The Traveler blessed their species like us, but the Precursors wanted direction Purpose. The Traveler like it does to us pointedly does not speak to them so they sought purpose through the Veil through the Winnower they may or may not have communed with it and became the collection of minds as the Witness aka the First Knife
I suspect but have no way to confirm that they had similar insights as we ourselves do. IE, they had a scripture kin to Unveiling, they might have insight like Ergo Sum's lore card, and other religious doctrines, practices and schools of though. Eventually they went in search of greater, more precise meanings and confirmation, but mostly succeeded in exasperating their own insecurities. And atop those insecurities they created the Witness to synthesis what they could never discover. A purpose for all things.
No, only that they are so arrogant as to believe they can discern the purpose of gods. They have interpreted The Unveiling in a self-serving way to justify using their power in the most selfish of possible ways. They are simply another in a long line of religious fanatics who claim god has commanded them to murder, plunder and destroy.
@@bobbybruh2623 it’s that they see themselves metaphorically as that first knife that the myth of Unveiling talks about. To be clear, I do think the Winnower likely does exist, but we can’t be certain from that quote, as it still doesn’t truly confirm it.
@@TheAHumanEXACTLY, The Witness could just be saying what it believes to be true/trying to justify what it's purpose is. I hate that Byf jumped the shark on this one and hope he does a follow up addressing all of the holes, not only from a lore but also a disappointing narrative perspective (if the Winnower would be the next big bad.)
If you remember the flower game. It seemed like the winnower's turn was very short, and the gardener's turn was long. Then it seems that when they entered the game, the gardener was in the game long before the winnower. And when it showed up the witness was already in their hand.
I’m fine with spoilers, I haven’t participated in the raid yet. But the “flower pattern” of possibilities reminds me so much of the flower garden in the movie Annihilation. The Shimmer that changes the DNA of flowers to make new patterns. Very cool similarities
Did savathun says “ the Witness is not fully darkness but something that wears it like a cloak, it gives darkness a terrible shape”
Yes, she did
Like how we wear the light
Yes indeed.
GREAT CATCH SHE DID!!
Even before altar of insight in Witch Queen, she pointed out there is a distinction between the Darkness and the Whispers in the Darkness during Pressage.
You know, when this whole “Black Fleet” business started, when we knew that the darkness was gonna come back, a faction(?) reached out to a Guardian that walked away from the light. They gave them a gift and the Drifter asked what the Emissary of The Nine wanted in return. “You’re already doing it. Keep playing the game.”
I don’t think the “game” is Gambit.
Yeah where the hell are the Nine, and moreover, WHO are they
@@solojones1138 I’ll do you one better. Why is the Nine?
This makes sense to me, if the “game” is the flower game and not gambit, that means the guardians that chose the other side essentially sided with the winnower. What if the strongest being left and therefore “the final shape” ends up being the guardians? I think the winnower still wins in that scenario.
The more I think about the flower game I just keep thinking that we don't know all the pieces going on in the background, there's no real reason for the flower game. There's no... Desire to win other than to prove a point. Being a paracausal entity must suck.
@@allansamuel9631 exactly that. if we continue on our path of "defending in the name of the light" and influencing everything we touch then, the irony in the light becoming the "final shape". This would give reason as to why the traveler gave savathun the light. we cannot be the only driving force of the light otherwise we're no different then The Witness Wielding the dark
I'd like to think that, because the Winnower cannot say "what shape to carve", it hates what the Witness has done to the universe but is powerless to stop it. The purpose of the Winnower's Final Shape is to minimize the amount of suffering in the universe, something we know the Witness doesn't do because, as Eido discovered, its crusade is driven by hatred. Perhaps the Veil manifesting Strand for us was the Winnower's attempt at stopping its rusty First Knife, and a way to create us as a sharper, Second one?
You onto something with that theory about Strand
Makes so much more sense then the Guardians miraculously being the first to discover a fundamental power in the universe
I like this theory because strand is supposed to be the fabric that holds everything together. And if it is the winnower is who is showing us strand, that could actually be how the gardener and the winnower create and destroy things in the universe. By cutting there strands. We can only manipulate the strands. I would imagine the winnower can actually "cut" them.
It does seem like witness
considers itself the first knife… But is actually a heretic interpreting the winnower’s final shape as justification for exacting revenge on the traveler for leaving the precursors.
I don’t think we are quite sure it wants to limit suffering. We know for sure it wants to make things simpler, and leave only the strongest. In a way the witness did part of this. But they definitely disagree.
the winnower definitely didn't seem like it gaf that the witness died in the raid lorebook so probably true
Two things that stood out to me in the campaign:
1. Our ghost says he hasn't experienced "something of this magnitude" (referencing the full chromatic spectrum we now have: light harmonious with darkness) since he was created. (See Ghost's dialog right after we first meet Cayde)
2. The dissenter in Zavala's vision says that the Witness lies, and they ran from the Gardener.
For me this suggests that the Precursors fled from the Traveler fearing the chaos that was developing. They sought a means to bring order and purpose, and found the Veil. The Winnower gifted them the powers of Darkness, seeing both a kindred race that sought the order he does, and a means to draw closer to the end of the game as it has always been before.
Perhaps the Winnower told them to return for the Gardener, maybe the Precursors figured it out themselves, but either way they bring the Veil back in an attempt to forcefully take the powers of light and enact their final shape on the universe. The Traveler catches on to what they're doing and flees to prevent this, because this would stop its goal: thwarting gridlock and reaching a different end to the game.
I think the Winnower realizes that the Witness is no longer the tool it thought it was, as a frozen universe also stops its goal: the end of the game as it always has been before. Eventually, something changes and the Traveler chooses to make a stand with humanity. I don't think this is because we're something special, but rather because the Winnower and the Gardener have reached an agreement: create ghosts to seek out beings worthy of wielding light and dark to stop the Witness and prevent the game from stalemating.
This, or something similar, is the only reason I can think of for Ghost recalling the feeling of Prismatic. Darkness provided the pattern for ghosts, and Light gave them form. Maybe he's just referencing a "similar" type of power, but then why would he mention the spectrum and being harmonious with darkness?
Yes! I believe you're right! New datamine presume from the winnower himself! Seems to be talking down on the action of the witness.
And even on unveiled textbook, it describes the acts of the withness as "abomination." We just didn't know at that time.
"Eventually something changes......"
Going by in-game lore, the Traveller was prevented from abandoning earth.
@@Tao_Tology didn't Clovis create the Warmind to prevent the Traveler from running away? If I remember correctly, the Traveler tried to escape during the Collapse, but Rasputin stopped it
@@Coolbone1 This was never confirmed and ended up being retconned in season of the seraph. The protocol to shoot the traveler down if it tried to run existed, but was never actually used. I kind of feel like it was really heavily implied early on in the lore, and explains the level of damage we see on the bottom of the Traveler, but I think Bungie ended up deciding that they wanted the Traveler to stay because it wanted to because humanity was just "so special". I guess fuck the Eliksni and other species the Traveler didn't think were "special" enough to save?
@@supergatorhator It was quite literally said and confirmed _in the game_ .
THE WINNOWER IS REEEAALLLL
CAN WE GET MUCH HIGHER
So hiiighhhh~
Gh-oo-oost
TAAANIIIKKKS ...
CAN WE GET MUCH HIGHER
Byf, I've been with you for so long. I believe since 2016 or 2017 is when I first subbed but I have watched your Destiny vids from all the way to your early days. I started D1 in 2014 when I was 10 and now I'm 20, no longer playing Destiny but I catch myself coming back to you to hear you talk about the lore. Now that it's finally over I can rest. I no longer need to know what's happening. This is my endgame. Byf you have given me so much of my childhood because of your videos.
Thank you.
I think it's a little more nuanced than the winnower making the witness.
I think that the game isn't played by the gods themselves. But instead played by the pieces. I think the game has already begun. Only the universe born in the combat between them is the board.
The traveler and veil are Tools that profess nothing. The game is to see if the universe will turn into a final shape or if it will become an endless sprawl of possibility.
The witness called itself the first knife because it sees itself as the first to shape the world into the final shape.
Anyone who tries to make the final shape would be a "knife" in the hand of the winnower. But as the witness itself said. He wasn't actually ordered by anything. Nobody was swinging that knife.
The game is that anyone can be the knife. And anyone can tend the garden. Anyone can choose to pursue anything. And the travelers job is keeping the universe filled with possibility and uplifting the universe to give everything a chance to grow.
The witness saw the veil and the traveler and saw a purpose it made for itself. It saw a key and a hole and was the first to want to merge them and pursue a purpose it made for itself. And the traveler had no desire to allow the universe to enter stillness so it fled.
It's odd. But I think the gardener and winnower if they do exist they exist as watchers. They play the game by giving the tools to us. But they don't guide us.
After all the greatest proof of victory isn't by forcing it. It's by letting the game play out and seeing what the universe chooses for itself.
The witness with no orders or guidance needed almost proved the winnower right. And we as the champions of the gardener proved it right.
Possibility won over stillness.
But the witness is only the first to try.
The vex are just as much a threat. And they desire the same order and final shape. In other universes they always win without paracausual power to stop them.
It's up to us and all of existence to prove that there is no need for a final shape.
But we’re the final shape
Remember the Winnower's description of the game. "The only permitted move is the initial arrangement of the board." The pieces are the game, and the pieces play the game.
I agree with your explanation, I think that the winnower and the gardener are principles of existence and that they together move the scale of time throughout all possible multiverses. Also, hypothetically if we as guardians were able to destroy the winnower or at least "pause" the game, that to me is almost the same goal as the witness (eliminate entropy and prevent any change from occurring forever), only difference is that the witness doesn't possess the ability to restart the game if it ends. I imagine that by removing one of the 2 entities of creation (Winnower, Gardener), the game cannot continue, and thus sealing whatever eternity the "knife" desires (Final Shape). Another concept to keep in my mind, is that the destiny universe exists because the Winnower and Gardener don't agree and thus they "battle/create" endlessly so that there isn't a solidified state of existence. The true final shape is when the game ends, and nothing created by either the Gardner or Winnower can persist.
On the contrary, both exist within the game but behave differently. The Traveler acts but does not direct, while the Veil influences but cannot act.
To go off your point of "anyone can be the knife", I know it has long been seen as just being a 4th wall break, but I forever think of that Week 5 Invite of The Nine "Strength" where I have seen interpretation that the "game" when the Emissary says " think bigger, he/she can leave this game" is talking about the Guardian not necessarily being bound to the Winnower v Gardener game.
I like how you can see Byf literally stop in his tracks in the gameplay when he hears the word "Winnower" lol
He really, REALLY wants the Winnower to be real. I think he's overlooking a lot of pretty blatant problems with this interpretation because of that, unfortunately.
1) We know the full story of the Witness' origins. It was not created before the beginning of time. The first knife described in Unveiling was.
2) The Unveiling lore book where the Winnower is described came from the Witness. The Witness mentioning the Winnower twice does not confirm the existence of the Winnower.
3) Asha makes it clear that the Winnower was something the Witness created/mythologized to find purpose. Probably more accurate to say that the Witness invented the Winnower as a way to describe the purpose it gave itself.
4) The memories of the Traveler that we find, along with the fragments we discover around the Pale Heart and in Micah-10's missions (particularly the lore in Cyst missions), directly contradict a lot of the mythology that Witness describes in Unveiling.
All of this is to say, the Winnower and Gardener are metaphors the Witness created to describe the purpose it gave itself to chase the Traveler. They don't actually exist, but are a description of how the Witness sees the universe and the Traveler and Veil's place in it, and the reason it hates the Traveler for uplifting species without giving them purpose. It has come to view that uplifting without purpose as creating suffering, and describes it as "changing the rules" of the universe. It views the final shape as the end of that suffering, and that the final shape is what would happen if the Traveler hadn't interfered by abandoning them rather than letting them use it to reshape everything.
@@supergatorhator Stop coping. Winnower is real, cry about it.
@@MusicWarrior147 Please, feel free to point out where I'm wrong. Assuming you actually are basing your opinion on anything other than feels, that should be easy, right? Or are you someone who just responds with "cope" and "cry more" every time someone says something you don't want to hear?
@@supergatorhator but....the windower......
1. Is built around the concept of time. Issue is something that has existed forever does not use or value time the same as we do.
3. Something eons old and a billion times more intelligent is so simple that it need to make up an imaginary daddy to give it purpose.
These 2 alone poke holes in your entire argument.
If the gardener is confirmed to be the traveler, the witness claims the guardian and itself are creations of their “gods,” and we are products of the traveler, the most natural explanation is the veil is the winnower
Thank you. I’m kinda confused why people are over speculating things
Exactly. The Witness goes as far as to say, “They[The Winnower]cannot tell the knife what shape to carve.” This is reminiscent of how the travel doesn’t explicitly tell people what to do.
I hope not, the veil is so stupid and the winnower isn’t
@@ryankeith2712 Well if they are the same then they are either both stupid or both not. But okay.
@@ryankeith2712the veil should be a piece of the winnower that it carved away from itself
Byf! you got that ham cannon brother
I always assumed the witness was a “champion” of the winnower similar to how we are the travelers chosen. So cool to see this kinda confirmed!
I've always considered the Witness a heretic of the Unveiled doctrine. It desired to cut things short, to prevent the sharpening of the universe in accordance with the Winnowing path. It agreed with the Gardner in ethics, but the Winnower in process. The world can only produce suffering so better to end it as cleanly as possible rather than let rot and decay and profane growth find root.
I thought that line was more metaphorical. Guardians are not gardeners but we are the watering can wielded by the gardener (the traveler). Whatever gives the power of darkness is the Winnower, isn’t that the Veil?
Asha's memory cinematic literally explains that the gardener is the travler and the veil is the winnower, which is called that because it allows control over the power of the gardener (the traveler), which is how the witness was trying to create the final shape.
100% metaphorical. Byf is reaching a bit here, I think he wants the Winnower to be real and is unfortunately overlooking a lot of the lore surrounding this to latch onto this line.
@@supergatorhator100% agree w u. To me, the witness is just using its own mythology to put how it sees itself.
The traveler is not the gardener, and it is confirmed by the memories you unlock in the pale heart.
Those creatures are allegories of how the precursor people understands light and dark
@@adolfooliveira489 all this has been debunked already by the nacre ship lore😅
But keep coping
top 10 hardest destiny lines ngl "but the first knife clutched in its hand" ... "they cannot tell the knife what shape to carve" DANG
This dlc had so many bangers. Eris saying “fear is like a knife, we can use it to hurt others, or ourselves, or we can choose to sheathe it”
Kinda a wack line since a knife literally has to have someone directly controlling it to carve anything
@@orendamusic7577 kinda true but shows how twisted the witness boy had it
my fav is and will always be “You have no purpose, because you fear to seek one..and that fear is your failure.”
@@orendamusic7577the witness was the one controlling it. It was saying that the winnower can’t tell what shape that the witness can carve
maybe this is why oryx despite all his power never ended up becoming a disciple, although they worked to acomplish the same objective their views where different oryx seeking the final shape that the winnower taught him and the witness seeking their own thus making oryx unfit to be the witness disciple
CAN WE GET MUCH HIGHER!!?
SO HIGHHH!!!?!
OHHH OHHH OHHHHHHH
THE WINNOWER IS REAL!!
“To a place where blind men see
Can you take me higher?
To a place with golden streets”
I think once the winnower realized that the witness wanted to achieve a different final shape than its own, it decided to help us toward defeating the witness, and may very well be responsible for us being able to use darkness so well. After all it was the veil that allowed us to learn strand on Neptune. And I think it’s version of the final shape, is going to be us.
as soon as i heard those voice lines during the raid on contest i knew byf would drop a banger on it
Mine didnt load this is the first time im hearin them :(
I swear watch your video all night was a great idea, I already loved destiny, but now it's just incredible, I'm so excited for what come next in destiny, and more importantly thank you byf, thank you so much to expose the lore to us and raise even more my love for that game
To sum up the Winnower, he looked at the Gardeners new rules and thought, "Fuck it, we ball"
Yo thanks for the 1k likes yall are awesome
Funnily enough it seems the winnower is very anti ball
@ryanhickson6399 ahem, do you mean to tell me he looks at the Gardener like "Square up"
@@TheCarrionKing27 more pyramid up but that's about right
@@ryanhickson6399 well, the darkness isn't about pyramids. That's the witness. Actually, I'd argue the darkness is more about non-solid and even non-existent shapes considering the darkness holds domain over what isn't physical.
Not exactly the way I took that, the way it sounded was that The Gardener wasn't satisfied with the rules so proposed a new one, and The Winnower tried to call it out as breaking the original rules of "The Game". So in conflict, they branched out, and accidentally both created life DEDICATED to their own rules. It's very interesting that the Traveler ran so hard, so many times, and that The Gardener is so silent, but The Winnower is not just vocal, but stand-offish. Like watching everything going down is some huge experiment. Like it's seeing how everything plays out. Almost like The First Knife was the first move in a game.
Another great video Byf! I always appreciate your readings of the lore entries; you give them so much more life and energy.
So, to summarize everything that's happened from my own understanding:
-The Vex likely were the true 'Final Shape' over and over again, like all their predictions, outside of para-causal interference they can't simulate, have shown
-The Gardener got bored of the same thing happening every time and wanted to introduce a new rule to reward those who try something different
-The Winnower claims that will only "delay the dominant pattern" and there can only be one rule: Essentially Sword Logic
-The Gardener says 'Nah, I'd change' and The Winnower says they'll only create things "...that cannot withstand existence that will suffer and scream... they will blight the whole garden"
-On The Gardener's whim they both become Laws of the game now as The Traveler and The Veil
-The Traveler's 'Law' by The Gardener's words about itself are "I am the growth and preservation of complexity. I will make myself into a law in the game." So, growth and change
-The Veil's 'Law' as The Winnower's counterpart by the same vein is "Whatever exists because it must exist and because it permits no other way of existence has the absolute claim to existence. That is the only law", and "...I had only one purpose and one principle in the game. And I could do nothing but continue to enact that purpose..." So, Sword Logic and a will|strength to enact the final shape(?)
-"...the laws of the game became nomic and open to change by our influence"
-Traveler lifts up the Precursors, giving them a life of rapid growth and prosperity, but when they want purpose, The Gardener won't answer them or give them any
-Precursors search for and find The Veil because it and The Traveler's energies are linked, then bring it back to try to link it with The Traveler
-The Gardener/Traveler not wanting this leaves the Precursors, causing a collapse in their civilization and the power of The Veil they become The Witness and want to enact revenge against The Traveler for leaving them, thus becoming the first "knife" of The Winnower
-Cosmic Chaos ensues and...
-Whether we wanted it or not, we've stepped into a war with The Witness on The Traveler
-The Veil has now managed to merge with The Traveler in some capacity. This may have been The Winnower's goal, we don't really know though
Does that sound right? If any of these seem wrong or are incorrectly interpreted, please let me know. Like I said this is from my own understanding and I may be missing some information or misunderstanding something, but I'd love to be corrected so I can have a better understanding of everything going on in the game's lore.
I think that the veil and traveler used to be one entity, and that entity was the first Tree of silver wings. When the gardener and the winnower broke the tree off at the base, the veil/traveler were freed to go about the universe, acting out the Flower Game.
I figured this might be the case. The Traveler and the Veil was once one the first Tree of Silver Wings. The tree itself might be the Veil and the Traveler might have been what was sprouted from it. The fact that the tree looks like the Veil and the Traveler looking like what might've been inside the tree, because of the spherical space.
A seed (The Traveler) is planted, it grows into a tree (The Veil), the tree grows a seed (a new Traveler) that spreads out to create more life. That's the game the Gardener and Winnower are playing but the Veil and Traveler was one in a billion and hasn't happened again.
I was thinking that or maybe the traveler was the complexity added to the game by the gardener and the veil maybe a way to combat the complexity brought the Gardner but I feel like it could be too much of a reach but still would be cool
@@heroicxidiotHoly sh*t that's such a good point. The other side of the Veil looks like a half created Traveler... And the psychedelic undulations of color in both of the entities helps explain that they aren't too different from each other.
Question is, what would happen if we bring the two together? Reunite the tree of silver wings? Why doesn't the traveler want this? Did free will sprout in the traveler when the tree was cut?
Edit: and how did the tree of silver wings separate in the first place? Was that the Gardener's doing?
I like this theory. And it’s makes a lot of sense. I also think the rule the gardener wanted to add was possibly for life/entities to grow without their input, or perhaps enlightenment, self awareness or freedom of choice. Adding chance and chaos into the game.
Yup, Traveler and The Veil could be from The Tree of Silver Wings, which is the counterpart as light and darkness in my opinion. It might be twins or something.
In the Balance of Power lore tab, while Maya Sundaresh is attempting to interact/interface with the Veil, Chioma insists that the Veil is dangerous, which Maya agrees with, asserting that they must treat it like a knife. The text states that "a thought crystallizes" which leads me to believe that the Winnower implanted the thought into her. Its possible we've been unwittingly been doing the Winnowers bidding by using Strand, like a knife
I freaked out when I heard it in the raid. Waited on looking up more about it until you posted a video
The first knife ship lore text actually filled me with uneasiness and dread! The fact a being so powerful as the witness was so close to beating us but coming up short only to find out theres others like him out there and a singular entity that is *Far* more powerful then him who gave him the means to be as powerful as he was makes me feel like I'm a grain of sand fighting against a tsunami.
The minute Luzaku mentioned the Gardener in that lost sector, my ears perked up and I screamed. I assume she’s mentioning the Gardener in more of a mythical, religious text sense, but still, the fact that she said Gardener and not “Sky” like the Hive usually call the Traveler and Light-related things blew my mind.
Something I noticed in the 10 hour lore video with this allegory is that both exhibit the same base pattern: the Gardener and Traveller bring life and creative forces to a place then depart where the Winnower and Witness leave the garden, or place the previous touched, cut down. The cycle repeats innumerable times before the Traveller arrives on Earth and uplifts it, then the Witness’s arrival to do their part of the cycle is itself upended by means of a ‘new rule’ with the ejection of the Black Fleet from Sol and releasing of Ghosts to create Guardians as a means of ‘getting involved within the game’.
What I’m curious about is what is known of this tale after the Gardener and Winnower have this exchange and play the game with these new rules they implemented? What hints of what is to come for The Traveller and Guardians lie in wait to be uncovered and pieced together?
I deadass yelled when I heard this part on day 2 to my fireteam "BYF WAS RIGHT, THE WITNESS IS THE FIRST KNIFE AND THE WINNOWER IS REAL"
I was watching world's first and when the first team got to this dialogue I was like holy shit someone call Byf
I think byf is misunderstanding. The witnesses was never the winnower. The winnower is the veil. It was used on the traveler (gardener) to shift through its light and control the end product in a way the witness wants (the final shape), hence the name winnower.
The witness is simply stating it isn't the winnower. It never was. The asha cutscene refers to the veil as a winnower to control the traveler. Aka the gardener.
@@riavan8133I doubt the veil is the winnowed either.
@@riavan8133 he isn't saying the witness is the winnower. Did you watch the video?
Byf has a huge dog!
_Close enough._
@@italifacts1461 listen, i feel very differently about putting my dog in my girlfriend...
@@adamdrawhorn4861 _The Destiny universe is vast, indeed. Eyes up Guardian._
@@adamdrawhorn4861umm… I’m sorry, WHAT?? lol
The Winnower is like Destiny's One Piece
ONE PIECE❕️❔️⁉️ 🧐🤯😱
They'd better not be, we'll still have people arguing he's not real for decades at that rate.
It's the friends we made along the way
Nope, I personally don't think so.
"The One piece" is just a "guidance" kind of thing that some history statement if i guess it what it is.
The role of "The Winnower" in Destiny would be at least something similar to "The Traveler", or "The Gardener",
which is some kind of cosmic entity or maybe God, that maybe created/manipulating the Destiny Universe.
Not the same scale in my opinion.
@@engengclown To be fair, I posted this for as a meme than something serious - like how people would say "The One Piece is Real"
I think that everything can be contextualized through the garden game:
-Traveler/Gardener does not communicate with us because it does not want to "prune" or shape the plant.
-The Winnower sees this as an unending chaos because Traveler/Gardener will not try and shape and prune the plants.
-The Winnower does not/refuses to act at all in the confines of this altered game state. The First Knife appeared in its hand and the Witness does what it thinks is right, not what The Winnower wants. The Winnower never communicated with the Precursors, it was more like The Traveler and the Speakers.
-We do not know what the new rules would have been, The Traveler/Gardener never came up with an end rule(in the lore book at least) and this led the Winnower to think that these new rules meant The Traveler/Gardener would always win.
I think that D3 will be where the Winnower truly acts in this new garden game, "If I must play this new form of the game so that I can return the game to how it used to be then so be it."
If I had a nickel for every time Bungie created a story about a hyper advanced ancient civilization that uplifted humanity in an esoteric way. I’d have two nickels, which isn’t a lot but it’s weird it happened twice.
In Bungie's Halo the Forerunners *were* ancient Humanity. Then 343 and Halo 4 happened.
@tylerbarse2866Thus it isnt canon. Too many companies are coming out and gaslighting players of established franshises and justifying new changes to lore based on subjects the original writers considered but decided against and muckimg up the story. If it didnt make it into the game because they ran out of time, then its different. If they chose to go in a different way( in the case of halo) they chose to go in a different way. Leave it be and write so ething else. In the case of Halo, 343 made it very clear they wanted to rewrite or redefine bungie's halo. New reports of jealousy, infighting, and outright bans on hiring many OG bungie Halo lead designers by 343 coming out recently only reinforce that.
@@heavymetallabrat I find it hard to believe 343 banned people from Bungie from joining 343 when Frank O Connor was from original Bungie and Joseph Staten himself later joined and left of his own volition.
And there’s probably a reason why they didn’t go with that original Halo 2 Ending. They could have added it in Halo 3 but didn’t, rather just had a blatantly Rampant AI claim it.
And hating 343 when they have cleaned house while putting up with the modern Bungie up-and-down Microtransaction Funded rollercoaster is so funny.
Don't forget Marathon
Hey! That’s my line!
10 years and Byf still puts out bangers. Thank you for making the story deeper & far more understandable for those who don't get the time to go through the lore!
Since it's also said that the Gardener's and Winnower's clash created the universe, I can't help but think of Prismatic. The combination of Light and Dark created an entire world within Traveler's body, though in our hands, it seems be harmonious instead of discordant.
From the Inspiral lore book, the flowers must rise up to shape the garden themselves. That’s what the precursor civilization saw themselves doing when creating the Witness
is it possible that the reason why we can use both the light and dark so flawlessly is that the winnower is allowing us to use its power to become the most powerful being in the universe, so become the final shape that it wants? previous examples of beings trying to use the light and dark, such as nezarec, were unstable being the winnower didnt allow them to use the light and dark in tandum, but then why are we different?
This has always been my interpretation, that the Winnower's "Final Shape" is a lifeform so vast, power, "Majestic" that its existence dwarfs others. Creation of a Apex Life. The Winnower see us "The Guardian" as his (I agree with Byf - Winnower sounds male) proof of concept, his argument to the Gardener. The Guardian is only one whose been able to wield Prismatic, the Light and Dark in perfect harmony. That sounds pretty Majestic to me.
The Winnower will likely either guide us or "sharpen" us further to become even stronger - He doesn't want stillness or absolute destruction, but Majesty in Life. A Flower so majestic, no weed can touch it.
Given that Osiris and Zavala can use Strand & Stasis without ghosts, it may be that the Winnower offers *everyone* his power, to become part of his *Proof*, in whichever way they see fit, because they will prove themselves correct or die proving someone else correct.
The Traveler may be more discerning given what happened with the Precursors, and the Gardener desires complexity, heterodoxy. Difference.
That said Prismatic might be both Gardener & Winnower making the same Argument to different ends. Which we prove correct depends entirely on our choices.
@@shilohlee4332wait what about ikora she can use strand
@@ericespinoza763”winnower offers everyone his power”
It occurs to me that the witness maybe wasn't specifically favoured by the Winnower and just took the power of darkness to serve it's own needs, much as it did with the traveller. If the Winnower does vaguely follow sword logic it would want everyone on a base level playing field to see who comes out on top off their own merits. That would explain why it's happy to let anyone use darkness powers. It just wants someone, anyone to come out on top. If anything it was probably quite happily surprised when the witness was defeated as now it's got a new favourite piece, the guardian.
Stigma of the witness, the pale heart collectible sure looks like the needle pointing at the Traveler portal from Root of Nightmares as well as the main light core of of a vex conflux like they are all connected.
theres seemingly a raid lore book currently that has a being, with eerily similar mannerisms to the same being that said "oryx my man, kick back and relax" talking to us directly, calling the witness its necrolite and so on.
I was watching evanf’s raid race stream and when the first team got to this point I listened to this dialogue from the witness and my jaw dropped realizing the implications it held
I love how the Winnower existing is such a W reveal for the community. The dev claiming that the Winnower might not exist is probably the reason it does. He probably knew exactly what he was talking about, but the Destiny community was so upset by it that Bungie changed course. I believe the Winnower did exist, then was changed into a concept to make the Witness seem more threatening, then was changed back into being it’s own entity.
Honestly this line really does not contradict the Winnower being metaphorical. The Witness is quoting its own creation myth - that doesn't mean the myth is real. The Winnower was an idea created by the Witness to describe its understanding of the universe.
@@supergatorhator it doesn't really sound like a myth, considering things like the vex, the tree of silver wings, the stump in the black garden. frankly, you cannot confidently say it doesn't exist or not. also that very quote sounds pretty on the nose, the witness disagrees with what you posit
@@kingkunta3753 Saying "we are not the Winnower" is not acknowledging its existence, particularly when the book describing the Winnower and Gardener was made by the Witness. The story itself repeatedly says this is not literal. For example, saying "** We did not live. We existed as principles of ontological dynamics that emerged from mathematical structures, as bodiless and inevitable as the primes." and "They chewed at their cracked lip, which existed *only because this is an allegory*."
So, you have Unveiling, the only source of the story of the Winnower and Gardener, written by the Witness, which outright says that the Winnower and Gardener are principles of ontological dynamics and were not living entities. The Unveiling also specifically describes this story as an allegory - fiction with a hidden meaning. If we take this at face value, what is the hidden meaning that the Witness is trying to relay by giving us this story? By definition, an allegory is not literal. With that in mind, it seems to be talking about the Traveler uplifting species, "changing the rules" of the game/universe by giving life a chance to exist when it shouldn't. The Winnower represents the natural order of things, the inevitability of evolution/survival of the fittest. If we take this interpretation, the Witness being the first knife makes sense - it was created with the purpose of stopping the Traveler and using it to bring its vision of the final shape into existence.
The fact that an allegory alludes to things that exist is not proof that it's literal. A novel that includes cars is suddenly not fiction because cars are real, therefore everything in it must also be real, right?
I only came across your account recently, but I really enjoy the emphasis and articulation of your videos. Looking forward to more. 👏🏻
the Flower game and the conversation between the gardener and the winnower and the static nature of it reminds me weirdly of Paradise and the garden of Eden, the moment the traveler and the veil come into existence as an allegory to the apple of Eden that grants free will and choice to the precursors.
Bingo.
Yeah so that would mean that the traveler and the veil were the complexity that the Gardner wanted to add to the game but the winnower didn’t which caused a divide between the two which would also connect to Adam and eve
-apple- fruit
This is by design. The flower game, Winnower, Gardener, etc, are the Witness' creation myth that it shared with us in Unveiling. That doesn't mean any of it is real, any more than any other religious creation myth, and the Witness describing itself as the first knife does not prove the existence of the Winnower any more than a priest saying he's an instrument of god would somehow prove that the bible must be true.
@@supergatorhator That's pretty specious, though.
Comparing a particular book (written centuries after any of the described events) to a very real and powerful entity
"Each child we save from the game, you again force to play. You call us "Winnower", we are not... but the first knife clutched in its hand. Gods forged us both, but they cannot tell the knife what shape to carve." This line gave me goosebumps when I heard while watching contest mode and going through the raid later with my fireteam. Man I'm so happy the amazing story from the lore books is coming to the forefront of Destiny. I am falling back in love with this game.
That line where the witness is referring to gods creating us both, meaning the witness and the guardian. It’s referring to the traveler creating us, and the winnower (veil) creating it.
Nah. That’s dumb.
@@MumboJumboZXC lol
I doubt the traveler is the gardener.
That would be so dumb; since the witness was manhandling the fucking Gardner!?!?!
The traveler and witness are the same level, both being directly under their gods.
@@TyBe-uo4ud hey fun fact, on the destiny 2 wiki, the traveler is referred to as the the gardener. We have also had this in cutscenes and in game dialogue 🤷♂️
@@dakotalindbloom1853 ok? I've heard people refer to the witness as winnower, the wiki can change.
Something interesting is that it seems since the Gardener decided to make itself a law into the game, it single handedly made both itself and the Winnower mortal in a fashion. That is assuming they were immortal prior to the rule change.
Idk if id call the Winnower "the Devil", that title more so belongs to the Witness as it temps others to IT'S side, not the Winnower (it also fell from grace in a sense aka the Light), the Witness also pokes fun of the sword logic in the campaign (Rhulk talks about this in Preservation). The Witness is essentially the child of both Gardener & Winnower, but it does its own thing. I highly suggest checking out the final page of "Inspiral" if you plan on talking about this stuff more as i dont think you ever covered that & it adds context especially to "The First Knife".
I also think if the Winnower ever becomes a villain, that would cheapen TFS & the Witness, the Witness deserves to be the main villain & if the Winnower were to be introduced it would be restarting the "Light & Dark" saga, I believe people are overthinking the Winnower, I think the Gardener & Winnower are more like forces of nature (& if the Winnower could possibly intervene, it would prove the Gardener right). There's also dialogue on the Pale Heart between the Witness & Savathun where they talk about Oryx that could lean it towards the Witness being the one who talked to Oryx, Ikora also makes the comparison that Calus communed with the Witness on the Glykon the same way Oryx did.
The Winnower is absolutely a force for Evil. He thinks charity, mercy, forgiveness etc are weakness.
The Winnower wants to tempt us to join his perspective. That a Silver City Ringed in Spears and the entire philosophy of the Guardians is wrong. He wants *us,* his New, favorite Final Shape
He will just never interfere. To Interfere shows his hand and that the final shape isnt inevitable. He needs to be hands off in order to win, where as the traveller and light can interfere as the Gardener wishes
@@Theology.101if the Winnower is a force of evil wouldn't that make Darkness inherently evil? Instead it has been the Witness that's corrupted aspects of Darkness to its liking, & bent others to its way
@@BrazarBThe Winnower is evil because violence and destruction are inherently evil and the Winnower wants us to do that to everything until only we are left standing.
But just because Violence is Bad, doesn’t mean that it isn’t nessecary. Guardians routinely engage in the sword logic, drink deep of the Darkness and use it - but we use it *towards the Traveller and Gardener’s goals.*
The Winnower is darkness but they arent JUST darkness
@@BrazarBI think that was the original idea to make the winnower the villain of the light and darkness saga but writers changed it somewhere along the way
But if anything I would think of him as like an chaos incarnate
This is amazing! The lore in this game is so in depth and complex. Even when I fall out of love with the play, the lore has been what keeps me coming back over the last 10 years.
I can imagine Byf discussing this while standing in front of a conspiracy-style corkboard.
I have social anxiety and use this game to relax so I don't experience important moments in the lore like the raid. Your channel helps me enjoy the story more than I would so I thank you.
I always thought that the Witness was the Winnower's "I told you so moment" to the traveler. In The First Knife lore entry when the Gardener and Winnower are arguing they say "Everything will be the same. Your new rule will only make great false cysts of horror full of things that should not exist (The witness which could only be made through paracausal power that were introduced to the flower game by the traveler) that cannot withstand existence that will suffer and scream (The Witness constantly whines about entropy) as their rich blisters fill with effluent and rot around them, and when they pop they will blight the whole garden (The Witness trying to enact their version of the final shape on an unwilling universe).
Hi Byf! Im really curious, because I have listened/looked at your videos for years now, and I LOVE THEM(!!!!!) But I would love to listen to them more, so would you consider making them into Spotify podcasts? I mean, there is no need to Edit the audio, its perfect, but having the possability to listen more to the lore as im working, driving, (and yes, sleeping!) would be fantastic!
Again, I love your content! A new video from you is always a highlight of the week! 🙌🙌
THE WINNOWER!! THE WINNOWER IS REALLL!!!
Can we get much higher!!
@@Sailer_Monke so HIGHHHHHH
Byf I really hope you do a video on the memories of the Traveler Micah can interpret for us in the Pale Heart.... The implications are huge, and also maybe imply the Traveler is not the Gardener but just a tool of it too? I'd love your insight
I like the idea that the winnower prefer oryx over the witness.
The sword logic is much more in line with what the winnower seems to believe, so that would make sense. However, based on what savathun said during altars, the witness has much greater understanding of darkness than oryx
God damn. They really made the witness a very compelling villain this dlc. Every line is awesome and I’m just mesmerized every time they talk. The voice actor did an incredible job
Its amazing how much vindication those of us who have been saying the Unveiling is real are feeling all those years after being told we were wrong.
Greatest feeling ever that we were right all this time.
Literally metaphor
Well, as someone who used to very much think unveiling was real, I really don’t think it is anymore, even if the Winnower and the Gardener themselves are real.
The whole thing is a vague metaphor at best, considering that in the lore book, the First Knife is used against the Gardener before the creation of the universe, but in reality the Witness was not created until the precursor civilization had already been blessed by the Gardener for thousands of years.
@@yourewrong9028 Wasn't the Unveiling lore book written by or written from the PoV of the Witness (which also caused all the speculation as to whether it's accurate in the first place)? If that's the case I wonder how that line from the Raid can be seen as confirmation at all, considering both the lore book and that "confirmation" came from the same entity...
@@SirLugash We don’t really know if it was written by the witness or not, or if it was, how much of it was genuine belief and how much was deliberate attempt at deception. I will say though that that line at least implies that the witness truly believes that the winnower exists in some form or another, which is a confirmation that we did not explicitly have before.
We... I don't understand... how everyone has already popped out the champagne and started celebrating that Unveiling is a confirmed truth. The Witness isn't a reliable source. The Witness is crazy. The Witness thought that the universe's destiny was to be frozen in place forever. It was wrong.
We always used to talk about how Unveiling was more of a metaphor written by the Witness. Why is there any reason to believe these new words of the Witness are anything different.
Funny how in the Traveler that the Witness tower (after the raid/end of Final Shape) and the stump of the Tree of Silver Wings in the Black Garden look similar. Both seem to have a gash down the same side, into the fractured cubed/slivered/cut up ground, and then feed down a central path/line toward where you enter from. Both have steam/energies seeping out. Both places corrupted by Darkness in some form.
So...we're the first knife of the Gardener, and the Witness was the first knife of the Winnower?
Yes we the champion of the gardener and the witness is the champion of the winnower so yeah
we're more like a trowel.
@@DonatelloEsq yeah true gardeners do use trowels to plant gardens you are right at that one
It's more like we are the first walls of the Gardener. Before a garden can be planted, the Gardener must separate the wild from the garden and keep them separate. Then he can worry about towels and shovels. Without the walls, those items just become weird little knives for the gardener to protect the garden.
Wouldnt that be the traveler? Unless the traveler is the gardener
Gardener symbolizes Growth and the Winnower the Culling or Corruption. Creating the Witness was the Winnower playing by the Gardeners rules and taking a page from his
book - he was creating or encouraging the growth with his corruption and influence.
An “I told you so” by the Winnower to the Gardener that his new rules would change nothing. That his gridlock is inevitable. Which was right for eons until the Witness had his final encounter in Sol.
I never doubted him for a minute. One day, I will sit by his side as he calls me “My man”
I feel like the Winnower's quote within 'The First Knife' grimoire card about 'Your new rule will only make horror' (short paraphrase) is correct in the specific example of the Precursors and their Witness gestalt. Unfortunately for the rest of us in reality, it's never a good situation when something maliciously antagonistic has a knife of any kind, i.e. akin a 'Horror' Movie monster; let alone the metaphysic Knife of our reality's Cosmology-Myth...
Also I subscribe to the conceit that the Vex were the original, recurrent, 'Final Shape' within the previous version(s) of the 'Flower Game'. Which also relates to how/why Paracausal phenomenon are so nigh-incomprehensibly difficult for the Vex to deal with.
Impressive man sausage, Byf. HUGE
The rule change in the game of flowers was the separation of the veil and traveller. The combination of the 2 always led to the final shape over and over again. Separating them and letting the traveller get away from the veil gave a greater chance of growth and complexity in the universe.
The winnower and the gardener sound like two kids arguing.
Salvation’s Edge is my new favorite raid it’s really fun. That 4th encounter is tricky but once you get it it’s fun.
Thank you for the deluge of amazing YT content since final shape launched!!!🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾
THE WINNOWER... THE WINNOWER IS REAL
CAN WE GET MUCH HIGHER?
Agreed, merging this Darkness into the Traveller was definitely a main major goal, the Witness falling may not be such a loss to that side when they have such a victory
When i heard that shit in Aztecross stream the chat went wild and the raid team didnt even hear it 😂 but me and everyone in chat were losing their shit
I REALLY like this revelation because it gives a sense of comedic timing to the Unveiling story. Because according to Ahsa, it was the actions of the Traveler that led to the creation of the Witness, and in Unveiling we see the Gardener suggest to the Winnower that they add their own laws to the game, which suggests the creation of the Traveler by the Gardener. And AFTER hearing the Gardener's idea, the Winnow doesn't seem too plussed on the idea, but it happens. And when it looks down at its hands after being forced to participate alongside the Gardener, it sees the First Knife has just suddenly come into being. Mucho metaphorical. The Winnower's passive attitude towards the whole game, believing that no matter what the Gardener does it will only delay the same result, implies it did not directly influence the creation of the Witness, it saw no need to, yet the actions of the Gardener caused the Witness to appear, and it placed itself in the Winnower's hand as its piece of its own prerogative.
Byf, you got a big one on ya
On thing that I have been thinking is in the "Vision" we get after entering the Traveler. We see the astronaut using the elemental powers that we use, and the corruption of the traveler but other things shown are weird... maybe another video analyzing it will be fun. Grate job like always mate🍻
HERE WE GO
I really love the "gods forged us both" line. I was not a big fan of the Witness before but Bungie's done a great job of making it work.
The traveler is constantly referred to as the gardener. Even luzaku called it that. So its opposite must be the winnower. Witness when its explaining it's origin in the campaign, says that they sought out the traveller's opposite and they show the veil. Veil is the winnower and it's not evil. Traveller is the source of the light and winnower is the source of the dark.
Wrong in so many levels
Witness wanted to put an end to the flower game, only to play into the winnower's hand. What a tragic ending, destroyed by the very purpose they sought.
The mention that the Winnower might be what Oryx spoke to in the books of sorrow. . . chills right there haha
Thing is, based on how things in this video are said it doesn't sound like the winnower is an active participant or even an opposing Force. The way he says he looked at his hands and discovered the first knife doesn't sound as if he created it but as if it appeared, basically a reference how growth will eventually create it's own end. How the scourge called the witness developed from growth by itself.
To me, it comes across that the Gardener created the Traveller in order to enforce its new rule of Complexity in the game. The Winnowers responce to this was the Witness. Its also clear that the Veil is linked to the Winnower in some way. Thats my interpretation anyway. Edit, watched more of the video and seems like Byf is on the same or similar page. I think Heresy may give us more info, Bungie mentioned it as another eldritch force rising up and its tied to the Dreadnaught, we know the Winnower considered Oyrx as his champion so maybe? Time will tell.
the gardener is confirmed the traveller btw
@@zaelynrichardson4598 i wouldnt say its confirmed, its heavily implied though, if you read the Ego Sum lore tab its implied someone is speaking to the Traveller as almost a parent figure, also the lore of the Visions you collect in the Pale Heart make the Traveller out like its unsure and doesnt know its true purpose, almost like a confused child. The 2 options are still viable, either the Gardener created the Traveller or the Gardener became the Traveller, i lean towards the first option.
@@fishnutz5196the thing is that multiple characters have already referred to the Traveler as the Gardener, like Ahsa, Luzaku, Osiris, etc.
I don’t think Bungie would intentionally have multiple characters refer to a character as the Gardener when that character is in fact a mere creation of the Gardener. It would just be too confusing. If the Gardener from Unveiling exists, it is almost certainly the same entity as the Traveler.
@@yourewrong9028 and you could be very correct on that, but there are alot of outliers in the lore that suggest otherwise. But your not wrong and if it turns out it truely is the Gardener then it makes sense too.
@@yourewrong9028What just gets me confused is still Saint 14’s vision of a motherly woman helping him. And also the old concept trailer of D1 with the woman and also Unveiling. I think the Gardener made herself into the game which is the universe and that’s the Traveller, and the Winnower made the Veil and the Witness was the first knife.
Byf must be absolutely in his element with all the lore spilling out in TFS.
I’m kinda surprised they didn’t give the Witness a cool title in the Raid, so I’ll do it myself, *” The Witness, First Knife of the Winnower”*
Also i don’t think the comparison of the Winnower to the Devil is accurate, as Biblically, the Devil is strictly bad and God is strictly good (doesn’t act that way but I digress) But Destiny 2 has shown whole civilizations such as the Ecumene and Neomuna using Darkness Benevolently.
A closer comparison I think, is perhaps the Bhuddist Yin and Yang, where supposedly Opposing forces are in actuality Complimentary. This is similar to how the Veil and Traveler were once One being. And it’s similar to how the Witness and Nezarec consider Existence as Suffering, a common Bhuddist concept.
Also who do you think commands the Darkness Armies now? With the Witness dead, do they automatically become living extensions of the Winnower….or are they free? If they are free, the Darkness mutated Psions could become a powerful force within the Psion Conclave…
Way too long of a title
@@pioneershark2230 who asked?
Destiny always had this Gnostic feel to it. I can see where you are coming from
The name is flawed because it's not "Of The Winnower"
The Winnower doesn't want what The Witness believes is the Final Shape.
The Winnower lured the Precursors to The Veil and manipulated them into fusion and became The Witness.
The Witness from then acted on its own. Not saying The Winnower opposes The Witness.
The Winnower gives off very similar vibes to Ryuk from Death Note. The Viel is its version of The Death Note, it dropped it off and is simply spectating what happens next because it was bored with "The Game".
That's how I perceive it at least.
Way too long for a title
I had this same idea I heard the Witness say "I am the first knife".
But I also think light and dark together create infinite complexity, the gardeners goal.
Lore Daddy with another dose of sweet sweet Lore juice
THIS is what I wanted out of the lore since garden. This expands the universe again and stops it from all being about one (amalgamation) throwing a tantrum that made the universe feel so small all this time since their introduction.
Also I think its a nice bit that both the gardener and the winnower believe their view as the kindness.
byf has beeg dong.
- A message from Aztecross
I understood the concept of the Winnower and Gardener thanks to having looked into something similar in Transformers. Primus and Unicron. In the lore they once existed in the primordial void before existence as 1 being that split into 2. Each represented a dichotomy of existence, Primus was light, life, good, and order. Unicorn was darkness, death, evil, and chaos. Very similar to the Gardener and Winnower, both battled until they entered the newly forming universes. For Transformer they split into many smaller iterations across the Multiverse as Unicrons began attempting to snuff out Primuses, and devouring the universe as they went. Each having a vessel through which they manipulated existence, much like the Winnower I assume through the Veil, snd Gardener the Traveler. They are cosmic entities and fundamental forces of existence. While Primus and Unicron represented typical good vs evil, it fascinates me that the G/W don’t. G represents life and Light and the physical, but can be more prone to allowing chaos. W representing Darkness and entropy and through this death, but also the more mental. Unveiling makes it clear that with conscious life entropy is natural, whether through the nature of existence or conflict and war. Unveiling simply told us by the Winnower it’s self their origins, but told in metaphor so we could understand. It does mention the equations of the Flower Game becoming the Vex, it could be the Black Garden is either a primordial dimension the entities existed in, or perhaps like how the equations of the game became the Vex, the representation of the “garden” became the Black Garden.
Raid launches:
Byf: ES EL CRIBADOR, ES REAL, TOMENME UNA FOTO CON EL... OH NO HERMANO
The description of the first knife and the "Sword logic" basically go hand in hand. The line "Whatever exists because it must exist and permits no other way of existence, has the absolute claim to existence", compliments "All things must prove their right to exist, the rest will d*e in terror."
THE ONE PIECE!!!
Not gonna lie, this is the best way for a Byf video to be trending, especially after that one from Lightfall.
The Winnower is the GOD of the Precursor Race.
I come from Aztecross and have been told to tell you that:
You are incredible
BYF you have an enormous dog
"The final shape is the [golden harp], and [we are the hand that plucks]." Thats a quote straight from the new exotic from the final shape raid btw
So, please correct me if I'm misunderstanding, but does the First Knife entry imply that the Witness/Precursor people could actively speak to the Gardner and Winnower?
No. The Traveler blessed their species like us, but the Precursors wanted direction Purpose. The Traveler like it does to us pointedly does not speak to them so they sought purpose through the Veil through the Winnower they may or may not have communed with it and became the collection of minds as the Witness aka the First Knife
I suspect but have no way to confirm that they had similar insights as we ourselves do. IE, they had a scripture kin to Unveiling, they might have insight like Ergo Sum's lore card, and other religious doctrines, practices and schools of though.
Eventually they went in search of greater, more precise meanings and confirmation, but mostly succeeded in exasperating their own insecurities. And atop those insecurities they created the Witness to synthesis what they could never discover. A purpose for all things.
No, only that they are so arrogant as to believe they can discern the purpose of gods. They have interpreted The Unveiling in a self-serving way to justify using their power in the most selfish of possible ways. They are simply another in a long line of religious fanatics who claim god has commanded them to murder, plunder and destroy.
I always figured the two were distinct because I never heard The Witness say "Majestic. Majestic."
That line definitely doesn’t 100% confirm it exists.
It definitely could just be a metaphor
And what would the metaphor be for. An even bigger scarier bad/force? Aka the Winnower.
The veil
@@bobbybruh2623 it’s that they see themselves metaphorically as that first knife that the myth of Unveiling talks about.
To be clear, I do think the Winnower likely does exist, but we can’t be certain from that quote, as it still doesn’t truly confirm it.
@@TheAHumanEXACTLY, The Witness could just be saying what it believes to be true/trying to justify what it's purpose is. I hate that Byf jumped the shark on this one and hope he does a follow up addressing all of the holes, not only from a lore but also a disappointing narrative perspective (if the Winnower would be the next big bad.)
If you remember the flower game. It seemed like the winnower's turn was very short, and the gardener's turn was long. Then it seems that when they entered the game, the gardener was in the game long before the winnower. And when it showed up the witness was already in their hand.
Big dong byf
Byf the lost ghost missions have a ton of lore
I’m fine with spoilers, I haven’t participated in the raid yet. But the “flower pattern” of possibilities reminds me so much of the flower garden in the movie Annihilation. The Shimmer that changes the DNA of flowers to make new patterns. Very cool similarities