I think I'm also gonna have to diagnose Mr Lehto with a frightening disease he has. He has the horrific disease called "Having common sense, an excellent education, and a firm desire to do the right thing".
How come there isn't the (usual) legalese standard that "a reasonable person" in the statute? I believe a "reasonable mechanic" would consider the tightening of ALL lug nuts to be standard procedures.
I recently retired from managing a tire shop for 30 years. we would work on 20-50 cars a day, most of which had some type of tire work. We implemented a buddy system where two associates had to sign off that they both hand tightened the lug nuts to manufacturer's spec. Wheel offs only happen through negligence. it's black and white to me, that Chevy dealer needs to be held accountable.
Mark Haase - My Grandparents once had this EXACT thing happen. They went into a *SEARS* for new tires, had a wheel come off, *FLIPPED* their truck!!! They sued, and got paid. This was back in the late 70’s, or early 80’s, also down in Florida. Different time and place, FWIW....
I suspect Chevrolet has a procedure for tire rotation which probably includes tightening the lug nuts to a specified torque. The task hasn’t been performed until the procedure is completed.
Also, its funny how youre REQUIRED to insure new cars, and the insurance REQUIRES you to use licensed mechanics for repairs, who now can get away with not doing anything. Good job Michigan on instantly destroying the credibility of all the states mechanics.
really?? you need a licensed mechanic to fix a car ?? i get the insurance part you need full coverage if you are on a loan but a licensed mechanic must do repairs???
@@workingshlub8861 Yea, at least in my state you can only use facilities that have been certified by said insurer, and the more expensive the car the more egregious it is. Talking about owning a corvette or mustang and even doing an oilchange or brake change can void your warranty unless its through the mechanic the insurers choose.
I wonder if the judge would consider it ok if the person processing their salary did not press the enter key to finalise their pay being transferred to their bank account. .
That semantical bull$hit doesn't change the fact that they should be liable for negligence; just like the thief on private property should not be able to sue the property owner for injury.
While I don't disagree, the definition of "completely" will allow for the same type of word soup wrangling we saw here. Think on it for a minute and get back to me. -100
I'm betting if one of those Judges had their wheel come loose while driving away from the repair shop after a tire rotation, their interpretation would be different.
Maybe an assumption, but did they quote a 'book time' for rotating the tires? If so the 'book time' is in reference to a service manual explaining the steps of the 'repair'. If they did not complete the 'repair' then they should be liable...
Why I work on my cars, my friends cars, my families cars, you get the idea. I am a certified SAE Master Mechanic, you could not pay me enough to work in a shop or dealer, nothing but crooks and scam artist's. And I do live in Michigan.
Would there might be a Deceptive Trade practices Act of some type they could sue under? This makes as much sense as a Roofer replacing your roof, slapping on the Shingles, but not nailing them down! I can see the Court saying "BUT, he did put on new shingles!" And ruling against the consumer.
Remember when I said this was the SECOND worst ruling? The first was the one where our Supreme Court gutted our UDTPA (a law called the Consumer Protection Act). The best you'd have is a breach of contract or negligence - both common law claims that do not allow for the recovery of attorney fees and costs.
this is all ridiculous semantics......they wanted tires rotated meaning each wheel on different corner.....they never said they wanted them fastened to the car.....how stupid of an arguement is that..
@@workingshlub8861 they accepted that they failed and agreed on neglect, which is the same thing that would occur in your example. Neglect/improper procedure done. Not that they never put a new roof on ( which is what this court is basically saying )
I do feel this opens up a lot of fraud on the consumer, and I have a feeling this Appeal court ruling is going to do more damage than good. But even though the court ruled on This services was performed but not satisfactory Done. Isn't there a law that when you drive a vehicle on the road and needs to be Safe in drive ability and performance on The Streets and highways? So while the Mechanic did perform his services, To the laws of the road and highways the vehicle was not safe to drive And actually was not free from defect to be on the road at any time due to the lug nuts being improperly or not attached. Therefore it must be argued due to this this U of in drive ability the vehicle should not have been driven on the road due to the mechanics negligence and therefore violated federal and state statutes for vehicle safety and proper maintenance to assure it was OK to be driven on highways and streets. So if this is the case if a car is found to have a defects and cannot be driven in a safe manner under or federal and state laws on highways and streets then and mechanic is negligent for violating these highway and street laws for making sure a car is free of defects and safety issues. I also wonder when they sign that work order to be done what is that state on their when they sign this paper work for the Dealership repair shop? Does that paper they signed with the dealership that gave them possession of the car to do any repairs anything that might be done to your Vehicle will be done completely under their rules of carriage? I'm pretty sure those work orders can be construed As a contract for services to be performed and completed in exchange for money.
The roofing analogy brings back memories. I was contacted by a relative many years ago about their leaking roof on their summer cottage, and would I come take a look. When inside the cabin looking at the leaking areas I noticed the open roof rafters and tongue and groove wood ceiling. Outside and up on the roof now, I'm looking for obvious faulty/ damaged shingles. Nothing, it looked great, almost new? The house damage was from the eaves approximately six foot up the ceiling, so I started looking at the eaves area upward. So I take a flat bar between the lands looking for improper nailing pattern under the shingles and shazam!....No nails, not one! They literally just laid them on the roof!.... I know long story but this stuff really happens, it's sad.
What this Appelate Ruling implies is analogous to a Heart Surgeon opening up a patient replacing a defective heart valve and walking away and not "closing up" the patient and saying "Job well done". Ask your Appelate Judge if that qualifies as "performance"...I think not!!
We're definitely in the age of insanity. Car repairs are a major source of pain for consumers in the first place. This ruling just absolves all responsibility and turns car repair facilities into casinos. Take your chances....
It appears that the Michigan Court of Appeals must have realized that the appeals court have failed to perform some fundamental duty somewhere and in order to cover up such incompetence they appear to be attempting to redefine and establish an absurd definition of 'perform' to save themselves. The judges involved in this appeals court should face serious consequences, and the Michigan legislature should immediately update the relevent laws and clearly define the word 'perform' to the level a toddler could understand for the sake of such incompetent judges. These judges clearly have less sense than a toddler, and have failed to perform their job to bring justice.
I can actually chime in here! I'm an industrial engineer. I'm not a lawyer and I do not work in automotive, however I DO understand how the "book time" system in automotive repair works. I generally use the MOST technique and there are a few others, but what you do to determine the total time a job should take by averaging the sums of each individual movement that is required to complete tasks. So for a tire rotation we would require several large tasks to be performed (Drive car into bay, get out of vehicle, raise car, get tools, remove 1st tire, etc). Sometimes these tasks are simply in a book; like removing 5 standard lugnuts using an impact = x secs because its such a repetitive normal task that has been around for a long time. The BOOK time for tire rotation, which is what every automotive shop can refer to (granted every shop charges their "hours" differently) is made of a subset of TASKs which are subset of MOVETMENTs that COMPLETE A JOB. The argument is the JOB isn't complete because the TASK of tightening set of lugnuts wasn't complete! Steve is arguing this the entire video, but my point is this ISN'T a debate on what the TASKs are to complete a automotive service! It's documented and it's scientific.
The most idiotic aspect of this case is that if this had happened to any single one of the judges they would have felt ENTIRELY justified in taking action against the mechanic/garage themselves!! They would, IN NO WAY, feel that THEY should have accepted the outcome if they were the aggrieved party! Fucking hypocrites!
*As a retired ASE certified Master Technician and former shop operator* Steve's is right in his argument and the court is wrong ! Probably due to legalize hair splitting as opposed to having a Judge that actually ever changed a flat tire in his life much less rotated them, they are one and the same operation. This is a follow up, real world comment, from the mechanics point of view. On the tech's failure, if there were no other unknown reasons for the failure other than, we are all human and make mistakes. That is what product liability insurance is for, it is the bonding in the term bonded that companies use,it protects the customer and the business from loss and technically you the customer pay (pennies) for it, if you are in a bonded shop. But in this case, as per the MI. law, even the bonded shops/Insurance Co. have an out.
When I was working at the Kenworth dealership, a customer called, got transferred to service department, Jim answered the phone, the customer asks "how much for a fan belt?" Jim says "you mean to put it on?" The customer says, " no I don't want you fuckers to do it! I just want the belt!" Jim said let me transfer you to the parts department then. All day long you get calls like that.
Well indeed, the roofing contractor roofed 80% of your house then charged you and left...your surgeon removes your appendix but doesn't suture up the wound and goes golfing...
He "performed " the tire rotation did the customer ask to have the lug nut torqued to factory spec's ? You do know that common sense has been bread out of our society
If the TV show "Holmes on Homes" is to be believed, the same law applies to contractors in Canada. If you hire someone to do $20,000 of work in your home, and they do ANY amount of work at all, such as demolishing everything you own, then walk away, you cannot sue them, but they can put a lien on your house for lack of payment.
So, what I'm hearing is that the Betten family of automobile dealerships does not stand behind their work. They can't be counted on to tighten lug nuts and I'm going to let them into the guts of my engine? I don't think so. Especially since they don't want to be responsible for the consequences of their negligence.
I get these weird mental pictures. Imagine these appeals court justices and their wives all decked out for an expensive gala evening at the opera. Everyone who's anyone is there, rubbing shoulders and congratulating themselves for being there, being seen and all that crap. They take their exclusive balcony seats and the performance begins. It is exquisite. At intermission they mingle with their ilk over champagne, canapes and caviar before returning to their comfy seats. Then, unexpectedly, just before "the fat lady sings", the curtain comes down, the house lights go up, and rude ushers start manhandling them out of the theater. Entitled shouts of outrage are met with the comment, "You came to a performance, we performed, now get out!" Think they'd get it then?
All we learn from this is that all the laws, courts, systems in place don't serve justice . . just crush people with word salads. Bereft of morals or principles. 😒
I have been told that the law and the justice system are two different entities , and that the justice system does not nessisarily have to follow the law. I have been told this by police officers and by lawyers.
A few months ago, I had a similar incident in which a mechanic failed to tighten the bolts that retain the brake pads on a front wheel. I drove the vehicle while towing a trailer for about 75 miles on a highway, and then unhitched the trailer. Then while driving at low speed, a bolt fell out and the wheel locked when I stepped on the pedal. A local mechanic discovered this, and I had the car repaired. When I returned home, I visited the mechanic and discussed the matter and he admitted his error. Although I was angry, I realized that no one had been injured and that people do make mistake. So we reached an accommodation that he will make the next major repair on my vehicle with no charge for labor. In a dispute of this sort, I think it's important to keep anger under control, decide what will satisfy you, and what is a reasonable remedy that the other party can agree to.
The plaintiff would not have been injured if the mechanic hadn't done the job at all. Instead, he didn't complete the job and put the plaintiff at risk. What is more negligent than that? They sometimes tell you that "I can't let you leave with your brakes in this condition" or make you sign a waiver.
So the judge is saying that you should use the definition that best protects the merchant over the customer even though the starting point was a law written to protect the customer.
Lobbyists. Dealerships make massive profits and will not have their middleman scam threatened. Or the owner is very wealthy from said scams and knows the judges. There's not much difference. Being rich is a get out of jail free card.
The appeals court judgement can be understood in light of typical government practice. The government attempts to do many things which it doesn't do at all or fails to complete. The govt sees "perform" as "sort of try to do". Any other interpretation would threaten the fabric of our governmental society. (1/2 sarc)
I had a door latch replacement done under recall only to find out a year later that none of the needed parts had been installed. Thankfully when the un-replaced latch failed a year later my vehicle was stopped when the door went flying open unexpectedly.
I hear your outrage. Asset forfeiture was just granted to the auto industry. What is to stop a dealership from knowingly performing poor repairs, continuously demanding payments, then seizing the car for sale after the customer runs out of cash? This has the potential to bilk millions out of poor working stiffs.
Wow. I spent 24 years as a dealership technician, made my share of mistakes, but never hurt anyone. I understand Betten's admittance of negligence. If I did something wrong, I certainly wanted to make it right. This stinks of some entity deciding after the fact that Betten (or their insurance provider) didn't want to pay out.
This is why I personally torque down my tires after a technician has removed them for any reason. Not installing lug nuts properly has happened to me, too. Luckily, I caught it before anything bad happened.
The appeals judge probably did this because his wife told him he doesn't "perform" in bed. This way in his mind he can do his deed but doesn't have to finish pleasing the wife.
Question: What happens now? Can the complainant refile a new motion under contract law (as the signed repair order is a contract) or is the appellate court's decision appealed to The Supreme court? -100
I own an auto repair shop for last 30 years i have seen loose lugnuts several times but i have never heard of a car could crash if you lost 2 of 5 or 6 lugnuts on a wheel,a loose wheel can create wobble,play in steering wheel and other indications to notify the driver there is somthing abnormal in his or her vehicle,secondly one loose wheel can not crash a car,how many of you people experianced loose lugnuts on your car and you crashed your car,i have seen this setuation several times,in fact i had one of my customers installed 2 new front tires at a tire shop they were experiencing some clunky sound from the front they broad they're car to me to inspected after test drivin i heard the noise was coming from left front of the car i raised it up to remove the tire out after moving the wheel to see if it was wobbling as soon as touched the firs lug nut i found it loose 2 of them was very loose the other 3 were tighter the caliper bolts were tight and other bolts were tight the point is a loose lug nuts can create a some kind of noise before it comes off, i think this passenger is ripping of the mechanic shop with falls story, by the way what about that driver i would check her or his driving record first.
So if you want the lug nuts tightened properly, how DO you ensure that the shop “performs” that? If the state of Michigan does not consider lug nut tightening to be implied under the work order’s “rotate tires” line item, then are they really expecting shops to spell out “tighten lug nuts to factory specification” as its own item? Following that logic, what else has to be spelled out? A line item for every step associated with a transmission rebuild? So it’s up to the customer to examine the work order to make sure that they didn’t leave out “step #389- install overdrive servo piston snap ring”?
Whenever I hear things like this I tend to wonder if the judge has a conflict of interest, if they're senile, or if they're making a bad call to force the issue with a higher court.
That has happened to me, it was about 20 miles past the bring it back to check the lug nuts warning on the repair completion tag. They were very apologetic and did have all the repairs completed at the location the wheel came off and paid for my hotel while I waited overnight. That dealer sounds extraordinarily bad to me. Maybe a little less bad than this ruling. I am kind of paranoid about that sort of thing now and carry a torque wrench with the proper socket in the tire repair compartment. This can happen to anybody, the lugs nuts can loosen up on their own which is different from not tightening them at all. People can actually die from this.
I have had a car with Lugnuts in the same condition and before the wheel came off it was making enough noise to give me concern about what was happening. I find this a little weird that they didn’t have any clue if that wheel was about to come off.
This is a big reason I do most of the auto repair on my vehicles. Other than the engine core, most anything that hangs off it or is body related is designed to be assembled by people with an 8th grade education.
Fufills established patterns, or agreed upon requirements. Step 1: loosen all wheels Step 2: remove all wheels Step 3: rotate and reattach all wheels Step 4: tighen all wheels
I get an oil change at a shop and pay for it. The mechanic fails to tighten the drain plug and all the oil leaks out causing engine damage. I'm now on the hook to pay for another's negligence? Wow.
Steve...why couldn't a negligence suit be brought against the dealer? Forget the Michigan Motor Vehicle Repair Law. The dealership had a duty to return a safe, operating MV to the owner. Obviously failing to ensure the lugnuts are tightened is a gross dereliction of this duty. I would think the dealer can be sued for their negligence, which resulted in the crash.
They could do that. But they'd have to pay their own attorney fees and so on. While that might be worthwhile on a big case, no one could afford to hire an attorney for a typical, smaller case.
This is also true in Texas, Thunderbolt motor and transmission in 2016 was to have rebuilt my motor and transmission on my 1983 3/4 ton Chev Truck CK-20 when I got my truck back they had put a car motor and transmission out of a 1972 Z-28 Camaro and car transmission in my 1983 Chev Truck CK-20 they had even grid the numbers off the block which is against the law had a lawyer he would only say that he didn't know anything about vehicles and would not do nothing on my case cost me $7000.00 for a rebuild that I didn't get FBI said it was a State matter the vehicle fraud Division out of Houston said that I had a contract with the mechanic shop and said that they couldn't look at my truck to look at the motor that the numbers off the block.At this time my truck is sitting because the transmission is now out because I pulled a heavy load with my 3/4 ton truck.So out $7000.00 dollars and couldn't take any kind of legal action against the shop I am also a Vietnam vet was a Security Specialist USAF and this is the way our Veterans are treated.
And people complain when the only recourse is for Johnny to get his gun! And why not? When somebody is obviously asleep at the wheel, and when it is going to have such devastating effects, why not?!!!
Well, if you want to spend the rest of your life in prison, or get shot dead by the police, because some mechanic ripped you off, then you should probably dial up the local hotline and tell them you need help.
"After ponying up $980, "I take a right hand turn out of the mall ... the left rear wheel falls off. It FALLS OFF. It FALLS the #&*% OFF. Turning my van into a tripod, spinning me into a dimension of pissed-off I have never been in before in my life." - Ron White, Comedian
So, if I'm charged $100 and I pay them $80 that means it's paid. Right?
Reminds me of those 41 inch TVs being sold as 42 inch "CLASS"...
I think I'm also gonna have to diagnose Mr Lehto with a frightening disease he has. He has the horrific disease called "Having common sense, an excellent education, and a firm desire to do the right thing".
How come there isn't the (usual) legalese standard that "a reasonable person" in the statute?
I believe a "reasonable mechanic" would consider the tightening of ALL lug nuts to be standard procedures.
I recently retired from managing a tire shop for 30 years. we would work on 20-50 cars a day, most of which had some type of tire work. We implemented a buddy system where two associates had to sign off that they both hand tightened the lug nuts to manufacturer's spec. Wheel offs only happen through negligence. it's black and white to me, that Chevy dealer needs to be held accountable.
Mark Haase - My Grandparents once had this EXACT thing happen. They went into a *SEARS* for new tires, had a wheel come off, *FLIPPED* their truck!!! They sued, and got paid.
This was back in the late 70’s, or early 80’s, also down in Florida. Different time and place, FWIW....
I suspect Chevrolet has a procedure for tire rotation which probably includes tightening the lug nuts to a specified torque. The task hasn’t been performed until the procedure is completed.
Very good point
Wait until doctors in Michigan figure this out... "Sure I performed the vasectomy. I just forgot to sew the guys ball bag up."
Lehto you are providing a valuable public service!!! Keep up the good work!
Lord knows we need it today!!!!
I would like to open a tire rotation business and focus my marketing to the judges on Michigan's Supreme Court.
Also, its funny how youre REQUIRED to insure new cars, and the insurance REQUIRES you to use licensed mechanics for repairs, who now can get away with not doing anything. Good job Michigan on instantly destroying the credibility of all the states mechanics.
really?? you need a licensed mechanic to fix a car ?? i get the insurance part you need full coverage if you are on a loan but a licensed mechanic must do repairs???
@@workingshlub8861 Yea, at least in my state you can only use facilities that have been certified by said insurer, and the more expensive the car the more egregious it is. Talking about owning a corvette or mustang and even doing an oilchange or brake change can void your warranty unless its through the mechanic the insurers choose.
I wonder if the judge would consider it ok if the person processing their salary did not press the enter key to finalise their pay being transferred to their bank account. .
That semantical bull$hit doesn't change the fact that they should be liable for negligence; just like the thief on private property should not be able to sue the property owner for injury.
This sounds like the way it should be argued in front of the Michigan Supreme Court. It's too bad there are moron judges who make that necessary.
Judge Jane Markey-Republican
Judge Stephen Borrello-Nonpartisan
Judge Mark Boonstra-Republican.
Vote accordingly, people.
Wonder if someone on the Michigan court of appeals know the owner(s) of the Chevy place? Strange decision .... Great video.... 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
Yah, some one got threatened or bought out.
this is beyond any reasoning....they have insurance for exactly this type thing..pay out the claim and move on..
Wow. Steve is all kinds of fired up over this. I understand, though.
That is completely nuts. A job isn't "performed" until it is done fully completely.
While I don't disagree, the definition of "completely" will allow for the same type of word soup wrangling we saw here.
Think on it for a minute and get back to me.
-100
I'm betting if one of those Judges had their wheel come loose while driving away from the repair shop after a tire rotation, their interpretation would be different.
Next episode:... brain surgeons can leave your skull open.
That's right up there with the lawyer dawg case
Sounds like the legislators need to define the word “perform”. They can write it in crayon for the appeals court judges.
The judges may have eaten all the crayons.
Steve, Please put this on your follow-up list, so we find out what is taking place with this case. Keep up the good work.
I wonder how they'd feel about half a coronary bypass surgery....
Maybe an assumption, but did they quote a 'book time' for rotating the tires?
If so the 'book time' is in reference to a service manual explaining the steps of the 'repair'. If they did not complete the 'repair' then they should be liable...
Why I work on my cars, my friends cars, my families cars, you get the idea. I am a certified SAE Master Mechanic, you could not pay me enough to work in a shop or dealer, nothing but crooks and scam artist's. And I do live in Michigan.
Would there might be a Deceptive Trade practices Act of some type they could sue under? This makes as much sense as a Roofer replacing your roof, slapping on the Shingles, but not nailing them down! I can see the Court saying "BUT, he did put on new shingles!" And ruling against the consumer.
Remember when I said this was the SECOND worst ruling? The first was the one where our Supreme Court gutted our UDTPA (a law called the Consumer Protection Act). The best you'd have is a breach of contract or negligence - both common law claims that do not allow for the recovery of attorney fees and costs.
this is all ridiculous semantics......they wanted tires rotated meaning each wheel on different corner.....they never said they wanted them fastened to the car.....how stupid of an arguement is that..
@@workingshlub8861 they accepted that they failed and agreed on neglect, which is the same thing that would occur in your example. Neglect/improper procedure done. Not that they never put a new roof on ( which is what this court is basically saying )
I do feel this opens up a lot of fraud on the consumer, and I have a feeling this Appeal court ruling is going to do more damage than good.
But even though the court ruled on This services was performed but not satisfactory Done. Isn't there a law that when you drive a vehicle on the road and needs to be Safe in drive ability and performance on The Streets and highways?
So while the Mechanic did perform his services, To the laws of the road and highways the vehicle was not safe to drive And actually was not free from defect to be on the road at any time due to the lug nuts being improperly or not attached.
Therefore it must be argued due to this this U of in drive ability the vehicle should not have been driven on the road due to the mechanics negligence and therefore violated federal and state statutes for vehicle safety and proper maintenance to assure it was OK to be driven on highways and streets.
So if this is the case if a car is found to have a defects and cannot be driven in a safe manner under or federal and state laws on highways and streets then and mechanic is negligent for violating these highway and street laws for making sure a car is free of defects and safety issues.
I also wonder when they sign that work order to be done what is that state on their when they sign this paper work for the Dealership repair shop?
Does that paper they signed with the dealership that gave them possession of the car to do any repairs anything that might be done to your Vehicle will be done completely under their rules of carriage?
I'm pretty sure those work orders can be construed As a contract for services to be performed and completed in exchange for money.
The roofing analogy brings back memories. I was contacted by a relative many years ago about their leaking roof on their summer cottage, and would I come take a look.
When inside the cabin looking at the leaking areas I noticed the open roof rafters and tongue and groove wood ceiling.
Outside and up on the roof now, I'm looking for obvious faulty/ damaged shingles. Nothing, it looked great, almost new?
The house damage was from the eaves approximately six foot up the ceiling, so I started looking at the eaves area upward.
So I take a flat bar between the lands looking for improper nailing pattern under the shingles and shazam!....No nails, not one!
They literally just laid them on the roof!.... I know long story but this stuff really happens, it's sad.
Had an oil change done, drove home. Truck starts choking. Called mechanic. Sorry, we forgot to ADD oil after draining it !!
What this Appelate Ruling implies is analogous to a Heart Surgeon opening up a patient replacing a defective heart valve and walking away and not "closing up" the patient and saying "Job well done". Ask your Appelate Judge if that qualifies as "performance"...I think not!!
We're definitely in the age of insanity. Car repairs are a major source of pain for consumers in the first place. This ruling just absolves all responsibility and turns car repair facilities into casinos. Take your chances....
It appears that the Michigan Court of Appeals must have realized that the appeals court have failed to perform some fundamental duty somewhere and in order to cover up such incompetence they appear to be attempting to redefine and establish an absurd definition of 'perform' to save themselves. The judges involved in this appeals court should face serious consequences, and the Michigan legislature should immediately update the relevent laws and clearly define the word 'perform' to the level a toddler could understand for the sake of such incompetent judges. These judges clearly have less sense than a toddler, and have failed to perform their job to bring justice.
I bet the attorney for the mechanic was dying laughing on the way home because he couldn't believe what he had just talked the court into.
I can actually chime in here! I'm an industrial engineer. I'm not a lawyer and I do not work in automotive, however I DO understand how the "book time" system in automotive repair works. I generally use the MOST technique and there are a few others, but what you do to determine the total time a job should take by averaging the sums of each individual movement that is required to complete tasks. So for a tire rotation we would require several large tasks to be performed (Drive car into bay, get out of vehicle, raise car, get tools, remove 1st tire, etc). Sometimes these tasks are simply in a book; like removing 5 standard lugnuts using an impact = x secs because its such a repetitive normal task that has been around for a long time.
The BOOK time for tire rotation, which is what every automotive shop can refer to (granted every shop charges their "hours" differently) is made of a subset of TASKs which are subset of MOVETMENTs that COMPLETE A JOB. The argument is the JOB isn't complete because the TASK of tightening set of lugnuts wasn't complete!
Steve is arguing this the entire video, but my point is this ISN'T a debate on what the TASKs are to complete a automotive service! It's documented and it's scientific.
I’ve never seen you so mad Steve!! I agree with you.
I predict auto repair locations across the borders of contiguous states will get a sudden influx of business from Michigan.
I have mine done over the border.
I wonder if the same precedent would apply if a surgeon left some clamps in one of their patients.
The courts "performed" justice.
Those judges should be disbarred for lack of intelligence
I almost popped a vessel, just like you did, when hearing the courts decision. What a bunch of (explitive) judges.
The most idiotic aspect of this case is that if this had happened to any single one of the judges they would have felt ENTIRELY justified in taking action against the mechanic/garage themselves!! They would, IN NO WAY, feel that THEY should have accepted the outcome if they were the aggrieved party! Fucking hypocrites!
*As a retired ASE certified Master Technician and former shop operator*
Steve's is right in his argument and the court is wrong ! Probably due to legalize
hair splitting as opposed to having a Judge that actually ever changed a flat tire
in his life much less rotated them, they are one and the same operation.
This is a follow up, real world comment, from the mechanics point of view.
On the tech's failure, if there were no other unknown reasons for the failure
other than, we are all human and make mistakes. That is what product liability
insurance is for, it is the bonding in the term bonded that companies use,it
protects the customer and the business from loss and technically you the
customer pay (pennies) for it, if you are in a bonded shop. But in this case,
as per the MI. law, even the bonded shops/Insurance Co. have an out.
I would think that if that happened to one of the judges a different ruling would have occurred.
When I was working at the Kenworth dealership, a customer called, got transferred to service department, Jim answered the phone, the customer asks "how much for a fan belt?" Jim says "you mean to put it on?" The customer says, " no I don't want you fuckers to do it! I just want the belt!" Jim said let me transfer you to the parts department then. All day long you get calls like that.
Well indeed, the roofing contractor roofed 80% of your house then charged you and left...your surgeon removes your appendix but doesn't suture up the wound and goes golfing...
Way to go Michigan! Glad I do my own repairs.
Steve, watch your heart rate.
NICE!
This is something that really matters, though. I get it.
He "performed " the tire rotation did the customer ask to have the lug nut torqued to factory spec's ? You do know that common sense has been bread out of our society
"I don't think you understand. The tire FELL THE F OFF MY CAR! Tires are not supposed to do that".
If the TV show "Holmes on Homes" is to be believed, the same law applies to contractors in Canada.
If you hire someone to do $20,000 of work in your home, and they do ANY amount of work at all, such as demolishing everything you own, then walk away, you cannot sue them, but they can put a lien on your house for lack of payment.
So, what I'm hearing is that the Betten family of automobile dealerships does not stand behind their work. They can't be counted on to tighten lug nuts and I'm going to let them into the guts of my engine? I don't think so. Especially since they don't want to be responsible for the consequences of their negligence.
I get these weird mental pictures. Imagine these appeals court justices and their wives all decked out for an expensive gala evening at the opera. Everyone who's anyone is there, rubbing shoulders and congratulating themselves for being there, being seen and all that crap. They take their exclusive balcony seats and the performance begins. It is exquisite. At intermission they mingle with their ilk over champagne, canapes and caviar before returning to their comfy seats. Then, unexpectedly, just before "the fat lady sings", the curtain comes down, the house lights go up, and rude ushers start manhandling them out of the theater. Entitled shouts of outrage are met with the comment, "You came to a performance, we performed, now get out!" Think they'd get it then?
All we learn from this is that all the laws, courts, systems in place don't serve justice . . just crush people with word salads. Bereft of morals or principles. 😒
I have been told that the law and the justice system are two different entities , and that the justice system does not nessisarily have to follow the law. I have been told this by police officers and by lawyers.
A few months ago, I had a similar incident in which a mechanic failed to tighten the bolts that retain the brake pads on a front wheel. I drove the vehicle while towing a trailer for about 75 miles on a highway, and then unhitched the trailer. Then while driving at low speed, a bolt fell out and the wheel locked when I stepped on the pedal. A local mechanic discovered this, and I had the car repaired. When I returned home, I visited the mechanic and discussed the matter and he admitted his error. Although I was angry, I realized that no one had been injured and that people do make mistake. So we reached an accommodation that he will make the next major repair on my vehicle with no charge for labor. In a dispute of this sort, I think it's important to keep anger under control, decide what will satisfy you, and what is a reasonable remedy that the other party can agree to.
And if you had been killed, I hope the mechanic would have been so kind as to give your hearse a free oil change.
The plaintiff would not have been injured if the mechanic hadn't done the job at all. Instead, he didn't complete the job and put the plaintiff at risk. What is more negligent than that? They sometimes tell you that "I can't let you leave with your brakes in this condition" or make you sign a waiver.
That's easy TORT.. Duty, Breach of duty, Negligence and DAMAGES.. what the hell is wrong with them?
So the judge is saying that you should use the definition that best protects the merchant over the customer even though the starting point was a law written to protect the customer.
It wouldn't be the first time that a law was worded so badly that it failed to achieve its intended effect.
The question is who lined there pockets
Lobbyists. Dealerships make massive profits and will not have their middleman scam threatened.
Or the owner is very wealthy from said scams and knows the judges. There's not much difference. Being rich is a get out of jail free card.
Steve so if the tire flew off and killed one of the wives or husbands of the appeals court what they feel the same???
Wow, so sad, it breaks my heart that my home state of Michigan is starting to look more and more like Florida.
Where do you think most Florida men come from.
The appeals court judgement can be understood in light of typical government practice. The government attempts to do many things which it doesn't do at all or fails to complete. The govt sees "perform" as "sort of try to do".
Any other interpretation would threaten the fabric of our governmental society.
(1/2 sarc)
So by that argument you could do heart transplant, the surgeon removes the old heart, puts in the replacement but doesn’t connect it properly?
This calls for a tarrin and featherin.
I had a door latch replacement done under recall only to find out a year later that none of the needed parts had been installed. Thankfully when the un-replaced latch failed a year later my vehicle was stopped when the door went flying open unexpectedly.
I hear your outrage. Asset forfeiture was just granted to the auto industry.
What is to stop a dealership from knowingly performing poor repairs, continuously demanding payments, then seizing the car for sale after the customer runs out of cash? This has the potential to bilk millions out of poor working stiffs.
For the Michiganiacs 11 of the 25 justices in the Court of Appeals will be up for reelection November 2020... have the incumbents earned your vote?
Wow. I spent 24 years as a dealership technician, made my share of mistakes, but never hurt anyone. I understand Betten's admittance of negligence. If I did something wrong, I certainly wanted to make it right. This stinks of some entity deciding after the fact that Betten (or their insurance provider) didn't want to pay out.
This is why I personally torque down my tires after a technician has removed them for any reason. Not installing lug nuts properly has happened to me, too. Luckily, I caught it before anything bad happened.
Maybe the sovereign citizens should try to get their drivers licence argument heard by the Michigan court of appeals. It might work out for them.
The appeals judge probably did this because his wife told him he doesn't "perform" in bed.
This way in his mind he can do his deed but doesn't have to finish pleasing the wife.
lmao
Good and righteous indignations from Steve! Well said. AND! You even tightened the lug nuts on this case!
The court of appeals' definition of "perform" is based off their wives' description of the **ahem** services they provide in the bedroom
Kudos for you Steve for raising hell about this! This blatant ignorance.
The judges in the appeals court should be dis-barred for a decision like this........ Denton TX
Question:
What happens now?
Can the complainant refile a new motion under contract law (as the signed repair order is a contract) or is the appellate court's decision appealed to The Supreme court?
-100
pretty sure it needs to go up.
I own an auto repair shop for last 30 years i have seen loose lugnuts several times but i have never heard of a car could crash if you lost 2 of 5 or 6 lugnuts on a wheel,a loose wheel can create wobble,play in steering wheel and other indications to notify the driver there is somthing abnormal in his or her vehicle,secondly one loose wheel can not crash a car,how many of you people experianced loose lugnuts on your car and you crashed your car,i have seen this setuation several times,in fact i had one of my customers installed 2 new front tires at a tire shop they were experiencing some clunky sound from the front they broad they're car to me to inspected after test drivin i heard the noise was coming from left front of the car i raised it up to remove the tire out after moving the wheel to see if it was wobbling as soon as touched the firs lug nut i found it loose 2 of them was very loose the other 3 were tighter the caliper bolts were tight and other bolts were tight the point is a loose lug nuts can create a some kind of noise before it comes off, i think this passenger is ripping of the mechanic shop with falls story, by the way what about that driver i would check her or his driving record first.
judge gonna side with the money, the dealership, judge prolly wanting a deal on a new car !!!
@@spencers4121 maybe that one lmao
Please follow up on this for us.
Thank god my husband is a mechanic
Hundo, unfolded, behind the sinking ship model on the right side of the first shelf. 569.
So if you want the lug nuts tightened properly, how DO you ensure that the shop “performs” that? If the state of Michigan does not consider lug nut tightening to be implied under the work order’s “rotate tires” line item, then are they really expecting shops to spell out “tighten lug nuts to factory specification” as its own item?
Following that logic, what else has to be spelled out? A line item for every step associated with a transmission rebuild? So it’s up to the customer to examine the work order to make sure that they didn’t leave out “step #389- install overdrive servo piston snap ring”?
Whenever I hear things like this I tend to wonder if the judge has a conflict of interest, if they're senile, or if they're making a bad call to force the issue with a higher court.
Michigan Auto manufactures and dealers have a lot of judges on payroll.
I wish that the ones granting judgement, would have to suffer the consequences of their actions.
That has happened to me, it was about 20 miles past the bring it back to check the lug nuts warning on the repair completion tag. They were very apologetic and did have all the repairs completed at the location the wheel came off and paid for my hotel while I waited overnight. That dealer sounds extraordinarily bad to me. Maybe a little less bad than this ruling. I am kind of paranoid about that sort of thing now and carry a torque wrench with the proper socket in the tire repair compartment.
This can happen to anybody, the lugs nuts can loosen up on their own which is different from not tightening them at all. People can actually die from this.
Just when we thought that RV dealers could be successfully sued.
Steve is fired up on this one lol.
I have had a car with Lugnuts in the same condition and before the wheel came off it was making enough noise to give me concern about what was happening. I find this a little weird that they didn’t have any clue if that wheel was about to come off.
This is a big reason I do most of the auto repair on my vehicles. Other than the engine core, most anything that hangs off it or is body related is designed to be assembled by people with an 8th grade education.
I wonder how much that ruling cost?
Wow. Some judges need disbarment for reasons of stupidity.
im gonna open a mechanics shop in mich tomorrow !!!
its all corruption baby, you know the dealer is stealing from you !! i worked in em !! lol
Maybe one of the judges owns a dealership.
Fufills established patterns, or agreed upon requirements.
Step 1: loosen all wheels
Step 2: remove all wheels
Step 3: rotate and reattach all wheels
Step 4: tighen all wheels
I get an oil change at a shop and pay for it. The mechanic fails to tighten the drain plug and all the oil leaks out causing engine damage. I'm now on the hook to pay for another's negligence? Wow.
I'd like to perfrom a tire rotation on all those judges cars. Free of charge too.
lol R P, I'll help you.
Apparently this court “performed” a hearing on the matter.
Nice
Steve...why couldn't a negligence suit be brought against the dealer? Forget the Michigan Motor Vehicle Repair Law. The dealership had a duty to return a safe, operating MV to the owner. Obviously failing to ensure the lugnuts are tightened is a gross dereliction of this duty. I would think the dealer can be sued for their negligence, which resulted in the crash.
They could do that. But they'd have to pay their own attorney fees and so on. While that might be worthwhile on a big case, no one could afford to hire an attorney for a typical, smaller case.
This is also true in Texas, Thunderbolt motor and transmission in 2016 was to have rebuilt my motor and transmission on my 1983 3/4 ton Chev Truck CK-20 when I got my truck back they had put a car motor and transmission out of a 1972 Z-28 Camaro and car transmission in my 1983 Chev Truck CK-20 they had even grid the numbers off the block which is against the law had a lawyer he would only say that he didn't know anything about vehicles and would not do nothing on my case cost me $7000.00 for a rebuild that I didn't get FBI said it was a State matter the vehicle fraud Division out of Houston said that I had a contract with the mechanic shop and said that they couldn't look at my truck to look at the motor that the numbers off the block.At this time my truck is sitting because the transmission is now out because I pulled a heavy load with my 3/4 ton truck.So out $7000.00 dollars and couldn't take any kind of legal action against the shop I am also a Vietnam vet was a Security Specialist USAF and this is the way our Veterans are treated.
Seems like these judges "performed" a ruling.
When questioned about his actions, mechanic responded with "I am Root".
And people complain when the only recourse is for Johnny to get his gun! And why not? When somebody is obviously asleep at the wheel, and when it is going to have such devastating effects, why not?!!!
Well, if you want to spend the rest of your life in prison, or get shot dead by the police, because some mechanic ripped you off, then you should probably dial up the local hotline and tell them you need help.
"After ponying up $980, "I take a right hand turn out of the mall ... the left rear wheel falls off. It FALLS OFF. It FALLS the #&*% OFF. Turning my van into a tripod, spinning me into a dimension of pissed-off I have never been in before in my life." - Ron White, Comedian
They didn't perform the work. They attempted to perform the work. Sounds like some appeals judges need to go back to school for a while.