Thank you for bringing up this topic. As an instructor I would like to add a part of the recovery procedure, which is often forgotten but vital: after rudder correction to stop the turning: rudder neutral. If not, you'd spin the glider in the opposite direction, which, close to the ground, is impossible to recover.
For completeness, these turn onto final spins happen unintentionally, taking the pilot by complete surprise. Contributing preconditions include tiredness, distractions, dehydration. The pilot commences the turn with a low angle of bank, then subconciously inputs rudder to bring the runway into view, this is followed by their conditioned response to ease the stick back as the nose starts to drop and then wham, instant wing drop into a spin. One good habit is to enter the turn onto final with a well banked turn, always.
One simple countermeasure: Keep your speed up during turns. Stallspeed is also a function of bank angle. Should be basic knowledge, though. With appropriate airspeed there is even no issue when extending speedbrakes while turning.
I had a spin training last year and I'm so glad I did it. Should be mandatory for every flight student to experience that and to train how to get out of it, just like a rope break training for winch launches.
...absolutely, the same experience you had, motivated me to make this video...I hope it helps to spread that stall training in a turn really improves safety a lot...
It is mandatory in the UK under the BGA curriculum. A number of clubs fly with the ASK21 that really does not spin very well... Until the addition of a manufacturer approved mod; the spin kit. Weights are fitted to the tail and a table of cockpit weights is generated by Schleicher. It works very well, but does limit the combined weight of pilots
It IS mandatory training! Those most caught out are the long term flyers. Those who SHOULD know but forget the basics, training shouldn't stop at all. Predominantly the old guard fall foul of that mantra, you see it happening time and again. The pilots with their own plane, just not enough time to fly regularly. Those with busy jobs, see as a nice hobby, the time to switch off from day-to-day grind. That is why it happens, not the professionals or those in a club environment.
This video topic is *no joke.* In my early days of gliding I lost a lady-colleague of about the same age who stalled in the final turn at an outlanding. I was shocked when this happened, but the natural reaction when getting too low is to pull on the stick - which of course when you stall, only makes you go down faster. I mentally prepare for each final turn, and I put the trim way forward in preparation: This _gives me a good force feedback_ on the stick - and in case I get disctracted for whatever reason ( *traffic on final, distracting Radio call, runway suddenly not free* ) the speed will go *up* rather than *down.*
I am very sorry for this experience to loose a colleague. Thank you for sharing, reminding the risks and give an insight how to handle with sudden reflexes. I just hope that this video abd and these comments help to increase awareness of these overruddered turns…
Once when I was quite advanced but not yet solo, I was thermalling and was so focused on staying in the thermal that I failed to notice that my stick was was getting further and further into the corner of the 'box' due to me easing it back to keep the nose up. I reached the limits of the stick travel and barely had time to say 'Oh shit!' before i stalled and spun. I recovered it safely and his calm voice came from behind, "I watched that developing and checked it was safe below to see how you would handle a real spin. Well done and I hope you have learned to recognise that situation before it becomes critical next time." He was great because any other of the instructors there would have grabbed the controls as soon as I started losing airspeed in a tight turn.
@@RobinHartJones Thank you for sharing this experience. It shows very well how easy this can happen. As well it tells that an instructor with kind of these nerves and precaution can be so valuable and let allow you to make this experience. this moment i guess was a lesson for life! 👍🏼😃🙏
You are so very very good at this , it's amazing to watch your videos and see a true glider expert in action. Hard to even imagine taking one of these things up not knowing all you do, but that's probably a tall order for glider pilots as you are just amazing.
Thanks so much for your kind feedback. But I really have good news that entering into flying a glider is not that difficult as it seems, because there are many clubs and schools who made it easy to try and start flying gliders. I am happy to provide advice if your are interested in flying...
Awesome video! 😀When I learned soaring my instructor show me many stall spins during flight. Afterwards I had to practising alone low speed flying and stalling. First time was dreadful... After a few flight I could managed this situation. Glider pilots need just two important thing: altitude and speed...😊
I had the opportunity to have a former fighter instructor from the French Air Force as my glider instructor. He confirmed what you mentioned: typical spin training doesn't accurately represent how spins happen in real life. The only spin training I received was during turns… which is quite intimidating. I learned the hard way but became much calmer in similar situations while flying solo, and I was able to avoid entering a fully developed spin (in turns )by recognizing the cues early in the process.
Thanks for your comment. It seems that everyone is aware of this topic in gliding, but it is not generally represented everywhere in gilding training. I hope this video helps to adress this issue. Great that you had the opportunity to learn from a real pro! That is value.
This is the real importance of the "yaw stream" indicator. In final turns, it must be centered or lightly outside turn; but NEVER showing an inside turn yaw. Greetings from Patagonia, Argentina !!! 🇦🇷
As a SEP pilot: A base-to-final stall can actually only be prevented by two measures 1. flying a turn, i.e. with a corresponding deflection of the rudder in the direction of the turn 2. no steep turns over 20 degrees. I would think that these two points also apply to glider pilots.
I think the most importand things to remember is safe speed near ground - stall speed +10kts + 1/2 wind speed. Second; top rudder in a turn is anti spin. Applying bottom rudder at low speeds sends one into a spin - I learnt this on finals in a power airplane in 1979 (fortunately they taught spin training as a pre-solo requisite back then). Good video, well done.
For decades I am teaching people how to guide gliders and for decades I advise not to wear those look-out limiting devices (Base Ball caps) in any airborne cockpits. I know many want to look like TOP GUN Mavericks but EGO is NOT your AMIGO 😇 The notorious last turn before an attempted landing is well known. Especially in out landings you want to be close to something that represents security but to close means practically no base leg, the leg where you judge how to operate the airbrakes so when you are turning final you are on the perfect glide path on speed with the airbrakes midrange. To close means no base leg and you don’t want to loose sight of your intended landing area and when getting lower you intend to give more rudder than aileron to keep your eyes glued on the landing area and so spinning into the ground is created. Regards Frank
As a not glider pilot (I'm a pro paragliding pilot), always wondered why it wouldn't be a plus to have airspeed indicators on both wingtips? Slow turns, with such epic wingspans means that inside wingtip is probably often flirting with a stall. An audio warning (different for left/right) might be nice? ❤
Thank you so mcuh for your comment. Yes, I guess the first one who will provde such devices will receive a lot of appreciation from glider pilots and glider schools. And yes, the inside wingtip is always the one more close to stall. In thermals I like to fly the glider very very slightly in a slip. It feels more safely exactly because of what you mentioned before and an additional effect is that the glider feels much more stable in a turn.
In my club AK Celje Slovenia during gliding course we did many stall spins from fully developed spin to recovery....and did happen to me ending up in spin during soaring in turbulent thermal conditions....
@@flyneur Actually it was not unexpected.......I was in a strong and turbulent lee thermal, but high over ground and no one else was around. I was circling with approximately 90 km/h but the speed was jumping from 75....to 110 if the circumstances were more risky I would add at least 10 km/h of speed just to be more on the safe side. ....I was circling and sudden silence happened.....I knew that probably I will get instance nose down view of terrain below.... I put the stick in center and slight forward, rudder neutral....the glider was flying again in half turn with this configuration....I just needed to recover the dive...then I went back and soar up till cloudbase.😁 for me the most dangerous moment in gliding was when the tow plane flew to slow and low.....I lost the alleron effect and I was just dangling behind controlling the plane only with rudder (Club libelle 205)...😱
yep. in my club, due to airspace limits and the runaway being on the ege of the airspace you literally have to do the graveyard 180 100 feet avobe trees if you wanna make the runaway and it is generally at stall speed, so we tend to take steeper approaches and disregard the normal approach in the name of safety and not dying because of airspace bounds
Is this not part of training normally? In the UK, I must have been asked to do this maybe 10 times already, and I still dont have a bronze! (All but one demo successful BTW!) but in my club, you do it again and again before solo, and then on day checks you do it if you've got the height. Another point: this is why we fly a downwind circuit when we can. As you turn final, the wind tends to tighten you up, so you if anything you use outside rudder to stay aligned with the runway. If you fly an upwind circuit, then if you don't compensate in advance, the wind pushes you downwind of the runway line, and your instinct (which must be fought!) is you need inside rudder to remain on the line of the runway. And down you go, too low to recover. A few days ago my instructor casually suggested I fly an upwind circuit, and after admitted the purpose was to watch me for any over ruddering on final.
Yes, it seems that in UK it is mandatory, which is great. But my impression at least in my environment (germany) was, that this turn in final and in a thermal is not that present like cable-break trainings etc. That is the motivation to make a video. UK has anyway great training plans and a lot of knowledge provided online which I regularly access and use for refreshing. thanks for sharing your insights, that is very valuable here! 😀🙏✌️
You are absolutely correct, it is mandatory to do stall training before solo. I did it too. But I never had specific stall training in a steep turn...and that felt clearly different and in my opinion more 'realistic' to possible scenarios while gliding...
In other words keep your airspeed up! On final we are so focused on the approach below that it is easy to stop flying the glider but you're not on the ground yet! You must still fly the glider! Haha! Happy landings!
It's not a big deal when you've got a thousand feet under you, but on that final turn with only a couple or three hundred feet under you, well, you just made your last turn.
Thanks for video, first of all! Why do you think that, after "neutral elevator", you need "rudder against the spin direction"? I thought better to accommodate the stall to have greater speed and exit the stall itself?
thanks for your comment…i hope i did understand your question correctly …if the glider just stalls it is often enough to just release/gently push the stick to gain speed…if the glider is stalled and entering the spin the rudder against the spin direction helps to stop the spin…
Once you apply full rudder in the opposite sense of the spin (to counteract the yaw) then it's centrally forward on the elevator (neutral ailerons) until the rotation stops. Then centralise the rudder and ease out of the dive. The required forward movement of the stick will vary between gliders and so neutral may not be sufficient. If you don't counteract the yaw, the glider might not recover from the spin, and if you don't neutralise the rudder, once the rotation stops, you could end up spinning in the opposite direction when you try to ease out of the dive - especially if you do so too quickly, exceeding the critical angle of attack, and induce a high-speed stall.
@@ORMA1 I think that we're talking about slightly different points. I was discussing the fully developed spin and the standard recovery. Bringing the "stick centrally forward until the rotation stops" is easier to do in the heat of the moment as it will essentially find the point that breaks the stall (which could well be close to the neutral position). Spin avoidance is really what we're after as the spin recovery will require a lot of height. You're right, in a turn if the gilder stalls then ease forward on the stick (reduce back pressure - depending on trim) and recover flying speed. In a well-ballanced, coordinated, turn this will recover with minimal loss of height. If the wing drops in the stall then the spin can be prevented by first breaking the stall, stick centrally forward, without making the dropping wing stall further by trying to pick it up with the ailerons (that could well induce the full spin). Once flying speed is regained then the aircraft can be maneuvered to level flight. A spin at low altitude on the turn to final, is often caused by distraction leading to the loss of coordination/speed. This could be due to a number of factors all leading to a low shallow turn to finals (usually a loss of height in the circuit). It's better to land somewhere else on the airfield or choose an adjacent field to land in rather than attempt any low turns (less than 300'). I did the latter a couple of years ago when I encountered a lot of sink on the downwind leg of the circuit. I ended up in a farmer's field on the other side of some very tall trees from the airfield. It was worth the haslte of derigging the glider and getting it back safely to the airfield in the trailer rather than attempt anything rash at low altitude.
…i am not shure if a single number (90kmh) helps to be safe…I understood that these stalls/spins happen often because of lack of concentration, tiredness, distraction, turbulences etc….I guess my message is that keep energy for your concentration especially for the landing or circling close to the ground. my personal speed to fly circuits at unterwössen is even 110 kmh. but this is due to the special traffic pattern and mountains around…
I learned about the graveyard turn and graveyard spiral. I apologize if my terms are not super precise…I am not a native speaker as you might can hear from the voice over with my german accent..😅
Why pulling through when inverted at 2:39 ? The correct way to recover is to push the stick forward then roll to nearest horizon, otherwise you can pickup lots of speed and risk going above Vne. Do not use your spin recovery technique for powered aeroplanes, use this instead ua-cam.com/video/J9xYX8R_uUU/v-deo.html
Thank you for commenting. Absolutley right, every airplane is different and need often different techniques to control and recover. I was pulling because I was not fully inverted and I was warned by a gliding instructor that to fast and strong pushing in this glider (LS4) may lead to inverted spin which is more difficult to recover. Yes, I confirm that the speed got high very fast...
Total BS. There is nothing complicated on the turn to final approach. Just maintain your speed and control your sink with the spoilers. I have hundreds of hours in a Class III sailplane and more in powered aircraft. Stall/Spin accidents can happen to anyone, but sailplanes have low stalling speeds compared to powered aircraft and that gives them a greater margin of error. They tend to float on landing. If you're slow in a powered aircraft. add power, put your nose down and go around. Stall/Spin training should be required for a pilot's license, unfortunately, the FAA removed that requirement.
Aileron has to go to neutral for stall recovery. . . . Generally in a very slow turn to, say, the left - while turning your stick tends to be right of centre. The common mistake is when you are stalling, your left wing starts to drop a little more and you try to pick it up by turning the stick more to the right.... You say, "Stop using aileron near stall", well it's not done on purpose, but airleron position is very much part of spin recovery. . 2 things tend to occur: . 1. Incipient stall - to get yourself out of the incipient you need to catch it ie: stick forward and to the left of centre, left rudder, then pump it back - hard right rudder and enough right stick to flatten the glider but a little forward on the stick to pick up speed and not stall again. . 2. Full spin (as occurred in the video)- stick to centre (ie: flatten the ailerons), hard right rudder, pull back on the stick (as you are flying down with a lot of speed), LOOK UP!! to see what you may be flying into (very important if you were among a gaggle of gliders). . . Be sure to check your glider's handbook to see the exact procedure for the full spin recovery as there some differences between gliders. Reading and understanding the handbook is a flying requirement. . . The danger of the turn into final should not be underrated as stated in the video - it is true that too many accidents have occurred during this moment. You are too close to the ground for a recovery. . This is a well made and good reminder video. . Let's fly safe people!!!
Thank you for bringing up this topic. As an instructor I would like to add a part of the recovery procedure, which is often forgotten but vital: after rudder correction to stop the turning: rudder neutral. If not, you'd spin the glider in the opposite direction, which, close to the ground, is impossible to recover.
Thanks for adding this essential part here. That brings detail and value into the comments!
For completeness, these turn onto final spins happen unintentionally, taking the pilot by complete surprise. Contributing preconditions include tiredness, distractions, dehydration. The pilot commences the turn with a low angle of bank, then subconciously inputs rudder to bring the runway into view, this is followed by their conditioned response to ease the stick back as the nose starts to drop and then wham, instant wing drop into a spin. One good habit is to enter the turn onto final with a well banked turn, always.
@@ianbenning2833 thank you for completing! very good points you are mentioning! 👌😀🙏
One simple countermeasure: Keep your speed up during turns. Stallspeed is also a function of bank angle. Should be basic knowledge, though. With appropriate airspeed there is even no issue when extending speedbrakes while turning.
I had a spin training last year and I'm so glad I did it. Should be mandatory for every flight student to experience that and to train how to get out of it, just like a rope break training for winch launches.
...absolutely, the same experience you had, motivated me to make this video...I hope it helps to spread that stall training in a turn really improves safety a lot...
It is mandatory in the UK under the BGA curriculum. A number of clubs fly with the ASK21 that really does not spin very well... Until the addition of a manufacturer approved mod; the spin kit. Weights are fitted to the tail and a table of cockpit weights is generated by Schleicher. It works very well, but does limit the combined weight of pilots
It is, I remember being scared of it as a youngling the night before, but with the first rotation it converted to pure fun.
It IS mandatory training! Those most caught out are the long term flyers. Those who SHOULD know but forget the basics, training shouldn't stop at all. Predominantly the old guard fall foul of that mantra, you see it happening time and again. The pilots with their own plane, just not enough time to fly regularly. Those with busy jobs, see as a nice hobby, the time to switch off from day-to-day grind.
That is why it happens, not the professionals or those in a club environment.
@@nubinkit’s mandatory in New Zealand, including as part of the biennial flight review.
This video topic is *no joke.* In my early days of gliding I lost a lady-colleague of about the same age who stalled in the final turn at an outlanding. I was shocked when this happened, but the natural reaction when getting too low is to pull on the stick - which of course when you stall, only makes you go down faster.
I mentally prepare for each final turn, and I put the trim way forward in preparation: This _gives me a good force feedback_ on the stick - and in case I get disctracted for whatever reason ( *traffic on final, distracting Radio call, runway suddenly not free* ) the speed will go *up* rather than *down.*
I am very sorry for this experience to loose a colleague. Thank you for sharing, reminding the risks and give an insight how to handle with sudden reflexes. I just hope that this video abd and these comments help to increase awareness of these overruddered turns…
what you do on glider if runway is suddenly not free?
@@Jakaj99 *Plan ahead; Radio contact;* _if not free:_ land before (more airbrakes), or after (close airbrakes), or on the side of RWY in grass
@@Jakaj99 TO/GA 😉
Once when I was quite advanced but not yet solo, I was thermalling and was so focused on staying in the thermal that I failed to notice that my stick was was getting further and further into the corner of the 'box' due to me easing it back to keep the nose up. I reached the limits of the stick travel and barely had time to say 'Oh shit!' before i stalled and spun. I recovered it safely and his calm voice came from behind, "I watched that developing and checked it was safe below to see how you would handle a real spin. Well done and I hope you have learned to recognise that situation before it becomes critical next time." He was great because any other of the instructors there would have grabbed the controls as soon as I started losing airspeed in a tight turn.
@@RobinHartJones Thank you for sharing this experience. It shows very well how easy this can happen. As well it tells that an instructor with kind of these nerves and precaution can be so valuable and let allow you to make this experience. this moment i guess was a lesson for life! 👍🏼😃🙏
You are so very very good at this , it's amazing to watch your videos and see a true glider expert in action. Hard to even imagine taking one of these things up not knowing all you do, but that's probably a tall order for glider pilots as you are just amazing.
Thanks so much for your kind feedback. But I really have good news that entering into flying a glider is not that difficult as it seems, because there are many clubs and schools who made it easy to try and start flying gliders. I am happy to provide advice if your are interested in flying...
our instructor warned us against over ruddering (pedaling):
"This is not a bicycle!! Do not pedal!"
"STALL STALL"
My Brain: AIRSPEED NEED AIRSPEED
@@senffabrik4903 absolutely! seems you have a well trained brain! keep it up! 😀💫
Unterwössen. Wundervoll! ❤
100 % original Unterwössen! 👌
Thanks for the video and the reminder to all fellow glider pilots about the danger of turning into finall approach to slowly. LET"S FLY SAFE PEOPLE.
Thanks for feedback and support that this safety issue is spread.
Awesome video! 😀When I learned soaring my instructor show me many stall spins during flight. Afterwards I had to practising alone low speed flying and stalling. First time was dreadful... After a few flight I could managed this situation. Glider pilots need just two important thing: altitude and speed...😊
so true! and yes, it can be a lot of fun just to train from time to time this stall/spin recoveries...
I had the opportunity to have a former fighter instructor from the French Air Force as my glider instructor. He confirmed what you mentioned: typical spin training doesn't accurately represent how spins happen in real life. The only spin training I received was during turns… which is quite intimidating. I learned the hard way but became much calmer in similar situations while flying solo, and I was able to avoid entering a fully developed spin (in turns )by recognizing the cues early in the process.
Thanks for your comment. It seems that everyone is aware of this topic in gliding, but it is not generally represented everywhere in gilding training. I hope this video helps to adress this issue. Great that you had the opportunity to learn from a real pro! That is value.
I really enjoy your videos. They are very informative.
Happy to read your motivating feedback to think about the next one...
As a non-glider pilot, this is a very good video and totally applicable to powered planes too (except the thermal part, of course)
thanks for your feedback. happy that it may help not only glider pilots.
This is the real importance of the "yaw stream" indicator.
In final turns, it must be centered or lightly outside turn; but NEVER showing an inside turn yaw.
Greetings from Patagonia, Argentina !!! 🇦🇷
Yes! Most powerful instrument! Thank you for you feedback and all best from Berlin! Patagonia must be a gliding paradise!
SUPERB stall/spin instruction video. Thank you!
Thank you so much for your kind feedback!
As a SEP pilot: A base-to-final stall can actually only be prevented by two measures 1. flying a turn, i.e. with a corresponding deflection of the rudder in the direction of the turn 2. no steep turns over 20 degrees. I would think that these two points also apply to glider pilots.
Thank you for your suggestion and completing. Yes, these are defenitely measures which are helpful to avoid skids/stall/spins.
I think the most importand things to remember is safe speed near ground - stall speed +10kts + 1/2 wind speed. Second; top rudder in a turn is anti spin. Applying bottom rudder at low speeds sends one into a spin - I learnt this on finals in a power airplane in 1979 (fortunately they taught spin training as a pre-solo requisite back then). Good video, well done.
Nice explanation! That sounds very good and easy to memorize! Thank you for this helpful contribution and your feedback!
Very clear explanation _ thank you !
@@lubos4639 thank you for your kind feedback! 😀
That’s wonderful video! So exciting!😎
happy that you liked it…😊
For decades I am teaching people how to guide gliders and for decades I advise not to wear those look-out limiting devices (Base Ball caps) in any airborne cockpits.
I know many want to look like TOP GUN Mavericks but EGO is NOT your AMIGO 😇
The notorious last turn before an attempted landing is well known.
Especially in out landings you want to be close to something that represents security but to close means practically no base leg, the leg where you judge how to operate the airbrakes so when you are turning final you are on the perfect glide path on speed with the airbrakes midrange.
To close means no base leg and you don’t want to loose sight of your intended landing area and when getting lower you intend to give more rudder than aileron to keep your eyes glued on the landing area and so spinning into the ground is created.
Regards
Frank
As a not glider pilot (I'm a pro paragliding pilot), always wondered why it wouldn't be a plus to have airspeed indicators on both wingtips? Slow turns, with such epic wingspans means that inside wingtip is probably often flirting with a stall. An audio warning (different for left/right) might be nice? ❤
Thank you so mcuh for your comment. Yes, I guess the first one who will provde such devices will receive a lot of appreciation from glider pilots and glider schools. And yes, the inside wingtip is always the one more close to stall. In thermals I like to fly the glider very very slightly in a slip. It feels more safely exactly because of what you mentioned before and an additional effect is that the glider feels much more stable in a turn.
Hallo Christoph,
Ich würde dir dazu gerne persönlich etwas antworten. Geht das irgendwie? (Bin selbst Segelflieger)
Liebe Grüße
@@wolfhelm.-mq3rn Gerne! mail ät christophwieland.com
helpful but you can stall at any airspeed, so it won't ever be an indicator of being in a safe envelope.
In my club AK Celje Slovenia during gliding course we did many stall spins from fully developed spin to recovery....and did happen to me ending up in spin during soaring in turbulent thermal conditions....
yes, these trainings are worth it. must be very uncomfortable to be thrown into a spin in a turbulent thermal unexpected…😮
@@flyneur Actually it was not unexpected.......I was in a strong and turbulent lee thermal, but high over ground and no one else was around. I was circling with approximately 90 km/h but the speed was jumping from 75....to 110 if the circumstances were more risky I would add at least 10 km/h of speed just to be more on the safe side. ....I was circling and sudden silence happened.....I knew that probably I will get instance nose down view of terrain below.... I put the stick in center and slight forward, rudder neutral....the glider was flying again in half turn with this configuration....I just needed to recover the dive...then I went back and soar up till cloudbase.😁
for me the most dangerous moment in gliding was when the tow plane flew to slow and low.....I lost the alleron effect and I was just dangling behind controlling the plane only with rudder (Club libelle 205)...😱
yep. in my club, due to airspace limits and the runaway being on the ege of the airspace you literally have to do the graveyard 180 100 feet avobe trees if you wanna make the runaway and it is generally at stall speed, so we tend to take steeper approaches and disregard the normal approach in the name of safety and not dying because of airspace bounds
wow, that sounds like an adventurous traffic pattern, which make you pilots there handle this turns from the beginning…may I ask were it is?
@@flyneur right next to Como, Milano
Thanks again for your great instructive work herw 🙂👌
Thanks for your kind feedback again. I hope it helps to spread awareness of this topic...
Is this not part of training normally? In the UK, I must have been asked to do this maybe 10 times already, and I still dont have a bronze! (All but one demo successful BTW!) but in my club, you do it again and again before solo, and then on day checks you do it if you've got the height. Another point: this is why we fly a downwind circuit when we can. As you turn final, the wind tends to tighten you up, so you if anything you use outside rudder to stay aligned with the runway. If you fly an upwind circuit, then if you don't compensate in advance, the wind pushes you downwind of the runway line, and your instinct (which must be fought!) is you need inside rudder to remain on the line of the runway. And down you go, too low to recover. A few days ago my instructor casually suggested I fly an upwind circuit, and after admitted the purpose was to watch me for any over ruddering on final.
Yes, it seems that in UK it is mandatory, which is great. But my impression at least in my environment (germany) was, that this turn in final and in a thermal is not that present like cable-break trainings etc. That is the motivation to make a video. UK has anyway great training plans and a lot of knowledge provided online which I regularly access and use for refreshing. thanks for sharing your insights, that is very valuable here! 😀🙏✌️
This has been the inspiration for looking into acoustic angle of attack indicators.
It would be wonderful to have such a device...I will be your first costumer for sure!
@@flyneur I'm testing such a device in the next weeks at the Idaflieg Sommertreffen.
@@RoelBaardman that sounds great! Looking forward to hear from your experiences and I would be glad if you keep me updated! 😀👌
@@flyneur Tiny demonstration from the Idaflieg Sommertreffen:
ua-cam.com/video/DEI8vgY6NHw/v-deo.html
I usually add 10knots + half windspeed, on the turn onto finals.
Thanks for your comment. Yes that is defenitely a good way to avoid stalls...
Isn't this mandatory before you go for your first solo?
At least I did. It was quite instructive/informative and also alot of fun
You are absolutely correct, it is mandatory to do stall training before solo. I did it too. But I never had specific stall training in a steep turn...and that felt clearly different and in my opinion more 'realistic' to possible scenarios while gliding...
In other words keep your airspeed up! On final we are so focused on the approach below that it is easy to stop flying the glider but you're not on the ground yet! You must still fly the glider! Haha! Happy landings!
So true! Thanks for your comment and always happy landing to you too!
It's not a big deal when you've got a thousand feet under you, but on that final turn with only a couple or three hundred feet under you, well, you just made your last turn.
so true, i hope this video can help as a reminder to keep this thought in mind and even better to train a stall in a turn…thanks for you comment 😀
Great video. I share this with my Glider students.
Thank you so much for your feedback. I am honored and very happy if these experiences can help other to become better pilots...
Thanks for video, first of all!
Why do you think that, after "neutral elevator", you need "rudder against the spin direction"? I thought better to accommodate the stall to have greater speed and exit the stall itself?
thanks for your comment…i hope i did understand your question correctly …if the glider just stalls it is often enough to just release/gently push the stick to gain speed…if the glider is stalled and entering the spin the rudder against the spin direction helps to stop the spin…
@@flyneur right.
If you gain speed, it's enough imho
Once you apply full rudder in the opposite sense of the spin (to counteract the yaw) then it's centrally forward on the elevator (neutral ailerons) until the rotation stops. Then centralise the rudder and ease out of the dive. The required forward movement of the stick will vary between gliders and so neutral may not be sufficient. If you don't counteract the yaw, the glider might not recover from the spin, and if you don't neutralise the rudder, once the rotation stops, you could end up spinning in the opposite direction when you try to ease out of the dive - especially if you do so too quickly, exceeding the critical angle of attack, and induce a high-speed stall.
@@davidallan9624 maybe, dear friend. I just had two different instructors ( with two opposite solutions🥴)
@@ORMA1 I think that we're talking about slightly different points. I was discussing the fully developed spin and the standard recovery. Bringing the "stick centrally forward until the rotation stops" is easier to do in the heat of the moment as it will essentially find the point that breaks the stall (which could well be close to the neutral position). Spin avoidance is really what we're after as the spin recovery will require a lot of height. You're right, in a turn if the gilder stalls then ease forward on the stick (reduce back pressure - depending on trim) and recover flying speed. In a well-ballanced, coordinated, turn this will recover with minimal loss of height. If the wing drops in the stall then the spin can be prevented by first breaking the stall, stick centrally forward, without making the dropping wing stall further by trying to pick it up with the ailerons (that could well induce the full spin). Once flying speed is regained then the aircraft can be maneuvered to level flight. A spin at low altitude on the turn to final, is often caused by distraction leading to the loss of coordination/speed. This could be due to a number of factors all leading to a low shallow turn to finals (usually a loss of height in the circuit). It's better to land somewhere else on the airfield or choose an adjacent field to land in rather than attempt any low turns (less than 300'). I did the latter a couple of years ago when I encountered a lot of sink on the downwind leg of the circuit. I ended up in a farmer's field on the other side of some very tall trees from the airfield. It was worth the haslte of derigging the glider and getting it back safely to the airfield in the trailer rather than attempt anything rash at low altitude.
We learn to always fly circuit at 90km/h. With speed it would be very hard/impossible to use too much rudder and stall, right?
…i am not shure if a single number (90kmh) helps to be safe…I understood that these stalls/spins happen often because of lack of concentration, tiredness, distraction, turbulences etc….I guess my message is that keep energy for your concentration especially for the landing or circling close to the ground. my personal speed to fly circuits at unterwössen is even 110 kmh. but this is due to the special traffic pattern and mountains around…
I know the graveyard spiral but the graveyard turn ???
I learned about the graveyard turn and graveyard spiral. I apologize if my terms are not super precise…I am not a native speaker as you might can hear from the voice over with my german accent..😅
Why pulling through when inverted at 2:39 ? The correct way to recover is to push the stick forward then roll to nearest horizon, otherwise you can pickup lots of speed and risk going above Vne. Do not use your spin recovery technique for powered aeroplanes, use this instead ua-cam.com/video/J9xYX8R_uUU/v-deo.html
Thank you for commenting. Absolutley right, every airplane is different and need often different techniques to control and recover. I was pulling because I was not fully inverted and I was warned by a gliding instructor that to fast and strong pushing in this glider (LS4) may lead to inverted spin which is more difficult to recover. Yes, I confirm that the speed got high very fast...
Not all gliders behave that way .
very important point! yes, every glider reacts different…thanks for completing! 💫🙏
@@flyneur Is it a Discus ?
@@jme104 its a LS4 with winglets…a flight instructor told me that even a back spin can happen when the stick is to much pushed forward for recovery…
You didnt idle the thrust..
😎👌😅
Total BS. There is nothing complicated on the turn to final approach. Just maintain your speed and control your sink with the spoilers. I have hundreds of hours in a Class III sailplane and more in powered aircraft. Stall/Spin accidents can happen to anyone, but sailplanes have low stalling speeds compared to powered aircraft and that gives them a greater margin of error. They tend to float on landing. If you're slow in a powered aircraft. add power, put your nose down and go around. Stall/Spin training should be required for a pilot's license, unfortunately, the FAA removed that requirement.
Stop using aileron near stall!
Aileron has to go to neutral for stall recovery.
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Generally in a very slow turn to, say, the left - while turning your stick tends to be right of centre. The common mistake is when you are stalling, your left wing starts to drop a little more and you try to pick it up by turning the stick more to the right.... You say, "Stop using aileron near stall", well it's not done on purpose, but airleron position is very much part of spin recovery.
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2 things tend to occur:
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1. Incipient stall - to get yourself out of the incipient you need to catch it ie: stick forward and to the left of centre, left rudder, then pump it back - hard right rudder and enough right stick to flatten the glider but a little forward on the stick to pick up speed and not stall again.
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2. Full spin (as occurred in the video)- stick to centre (ie: flatten the ailerons), hard right rudder, pull back on the stick (as you are flying down with a lot of speed), LOOK UP!! to see what you may be flying into (very important if you were among a gaggle of gliders).
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Be sure to check your glider's handbook to see the exact procedure for the full spin recovery as there some differences between gliders. Reading and understanding the handbook is a flying requirement.
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The danger of the turn into final should not be underrated as stated in the video - it is true that too many accidents have occurred during this moment. You are too close to the ground for a recovery.
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This is a well made and good reminder video.
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Let's fly safe people!!!
@@markplain2555He said so twice. So what?
Hold on, aileron is not used in spin recovery!!
He just said so.